22 KiB
[RT][FF][HF] Naruto. The Need to Become Stronger, Chapter 20: Resolve and Resolution (end of act 2!)
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Author: u/Sophronius The Need to Become Stronger*
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URL: https://needtobecomestronger.wordpress.com/2017/06/11/chapter-20/
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Score: 22
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Created: 2017-06-11T20:22:17
Post:
Comments:
u/None [+11] (25 minutes later)
OK, so I definitely like how you've fleshed out the characters of Sakura and Sasuke in this fic. Every rational fic needs an abundance of smart characters with different world views to avoid becoming a boring Mary Sue type story.
But I can't help but feel that Naruto is the least intelligent member of Team 7, and that bugs me. Because in a way, Sasuke is right. In the world of Naruto, where individuals are capable of being overwhelmingly more powerful than each other, being born a civilian is a fatal mistake. I feel like, given that this is a rational take on Naruto where the main characters "Therapy no jutsu" is presumably not going to take instant affect on characters like Nagato, Naruto is being naive.
And while Sasuke hasn't shown that much innate intelligence either, other than perhaps, arguably his more realistic pessimism (my argument here being that, given the world Naruto takes place in, his world view is far more justified than Naruto's), his character isn't the main problem I feel I have with this fic.
The thing about this awesomely written and well plotted fic, filled with interesting characters, is that I can't figure out why Sakura isn't the main character. She is very intelligent. She is close enough to the main plot to have a justified presence at all the canon plot points. And her great chakra control makes her a perfect candidate to explore one of the most interesting areas in which this fic differs from canon- here, non-sharingan genjutsu seems to have the potential to be actually useful, and Sakura would have served as a wonderful vehicle for exploring the new reality that would create.
Furthermore, Sakura would actually have to investigate all the hidden background lore of canon, instead of just being told it be by characters like Jiraiya, and this would have made for epic reveals where stuff from canon has been changed in new and exciting ways in order to be rational.
And given all this, and seeing Naruto in this fic, it seems like he's only the main character because the fic is called Naruto. I mean, I probably missed something in the story where this is explained, but one of the main good points about Naruto in this story, that speaks to his intelligence, is that he sees non-weaponized uses for jutsu. And yet, I don't remember him using his own most special ability, shadow clones, to make money on the side.
One of the main appeals of a rational story is watching the main character munchkin the setting. And so far, this characterisation of Naruto doesn't feel like he's heading in that direction. Sure, his planning during the Haku fight was nice, but even that was helped along by Sakura. It would have been just as interesting, perhaps more so, to follow the genjutsu wielding medic Sakura as she skirted around the sides of the battle, helping her team mates figure out how to win. And furthermore, it would have given the role of support ninja ( a role essentially glossed over in canon) a rational twist; in any fight, they are the ninja who have the most time to actually think, rather than just react to whatever their opponent is doing.
Sorry for the criticism, and I know some of my points probably aren't as logical or rational as I think they are, but I feel like it had to be said, because I love your writing style, and I love the idea of a rational Naruto. I just don't see (so far) why Naruto is the main character of this story, other than the fact that he is the main character of canon.
Maybe he could start trying to do interesting stuff with sealing?
u/Sophronius [+6] The Need to Become Stronger (an hour later)
Wow, what an in-depth review - that's always fantastic to see after writing a new chapter. :)
The main reason why Naruto has to be the main character is because most of the story's characters and events only have emotional relevance in relation to him. I do think Sakura has potential as main character (and I like writing from her perspective), but though her outsider status allows for an interesting rationalist take it also presents the problem that most of the story's events have no relevance to her. She's aloof. She's intellectual. She has no special interest in the Kyubi's attack on Konoha or the legendary Sannin or the Hokage or any of the other relevant factors. It could still be done but I would have had to really play up the "civilian outsider becomes a ninja and her unique perspective lets her munchkin the entire setting" angle, where the world itself is the final villain, or reinvent the whole setting ala Time Braid.
I think Sasuke could have been an interesting main character too, due to his cynicism which allows for a unique take on things, but I suspect his perspective would have been tiring to read because it would be too dark after a while.
The reason I chose Naruto is because ultimately, my main priority was in writing a good story that's also rationalist, rather than the other way around. He's supposed to be the anti-thesis to HPMOR's main character: Someone who succeeds despite his environment rather than because of it, whose abilities are highlighted by his actions instead of having others marvel at how brilliant he is. And I do think this Naruto is much smarter than people give him credit for - he just takes to heart Kakashi's lesson that you should go for the simplest possible strategy and use common sense, rather than constantly showing off how brilliant he is.
But it's true that he does not "Feel" that brilliant, so the question is, how to fix this? I already wanted to rewrite the first chapter, but if it's a problem throughout the entire story then that's harder to solve. So what is it, exactly, that makes Sakura feel so much smarter to you? Is there anything in particular that she does that I could have Naruto do as well? Or is it the way she talks, acts, and carries herself? If you have any advice for me on how to solve this, please let me know, because it really is the story's #1 problem!
(He does become more awesome later, but that's kinda moot as readers might drop off long before that point)
u/None [+8] (2 hours later)
Wow. I did not expect to get any kind of response to my comment. Thanks. This actually means so much to me. So much that I actually took the time to read the first few chapters again, in order to try and find out exactly where my feelings are coming from.
And after reading up to the point where Mizuki is captured, I feel like I've found where my opinion comes from. Naruto, when he is by himself, is not smart. Naruto makes all his insightful comments, interesting arguments, and odd, yet novel opinions, when is talking to other people. For example, the first chapter establishes Naruto as someone who wants to research the true nature of chakra and ninja techniques. And yet, except for the opening scene in which he is caught after having finished experimenting with the body flicker, we don't get to see this. Sure, Naruto is interesting when is talking to Sakura, but given the fact that Sakura is established as smart by the narration (due to her room being full of books, the fact that she is a good student Naruto goes to for help studying, etc...) it comes across more as Naruto acting as a creative Watson to Sakura's Holmes.
And this is problematic, because it means the only really interesting thing about Naruto (at that point in the story), is stuff he's been born with. Those of us who've read canon know his heritage. He has a lot of chakra, so he can use the shadow clone technique (and yes, he also has a flexible mind, but this hasn't really been shown at this point in the story). Sasuke is established as the better fighter in the beginning of the story, and the interactions between him and Sakura (first at her house, then at the library) establishes her as the better thinker. And this even gets meta (which makes me think its kind of intended) when Mizuki's words are considered. There are plenty of 'better/more skilled/ smarter' people in this setting, but like how Mizuki says some people can't become top tier ninjas without access to top tier secret knowledge, they aren't the main characters of this story. Naruto is. And it seems like he's the main character not because of anything he is, or has done, but because of who he was born as, something even thought by Naruto in the story itself.
And it is at this point in the story, when Naruto think this, that could have (in my lowly, unskilled opinion as a very, very, very amateur writer who could create something as awesome as what you've written so far if he tried for twice as long) been a turning point in the story, a hook that gave the readers some mental aptitude of Naruto (after all, this is a rat fic) to hold on to. The main thrust of my argument is that Naruto does not seem smart by himself. If the twist in Chapter 4 had been intended by Naruto, if he had sensed something was off about Mizuki, or had a thought-sequence where did some planning and came to conclusion, or anything really, and had decided to send a clone to the meeting with Mizuki with this in mind, then Naruto's first 'victory', his 'defeat' of Mizuki, would have been in a part due to his brains. He would have been established as cunning, and the reader could go 'oh! This Naruto may not be the best student, or the best fighter, but he's tricky and now his cunning has been amplified by his shadow clones! That's why he's the main character!".
Instead the only reason Mizuki is able to actually take Naruto hostage, is due to blind luck. Naruto got lucky, and sent a shadow clone to the meeting, and then his real body blew the whistle after realising the danger. And this makes reading the beginning of this story (it gets better, much better later, but suffers from the same flaws) feel a bit like you're reading a version of HPMOR where, while the setting has been made rational, the main character isn't actually very smart. And instead we're watching canon Harry be manipulated by Dumbledore into killing Voldemort, winning battles because he got lucky, or because of someone else's awesome plan that just had to involve him because he's the chosen one.
And while the Wave arc kind of makes up for this, it still falls into the same trap. When we are finally given an instance of Naruto actually thinking tactically about how to beat his enemy, it is under cut by the fact that it is Sakura giving the reader the conclusions. Any sense of brainy rational-ness Naruto could have achieved here is destroyed by the fact that he is once more made a foil to Sakura's own intelligence. He is thinking 'along' with her true, but it's a lot more like he is a field Watson feeding data into a Mission Control Holmes, who then draws the conclusions needed to win. That is why Sakura feels so much smarter than Naruto, because it is her job in the story to be smart, not Naruto, which is odd because I feel (not know, I'm no rational fiction god, but I feel this way) that it should be the job of the main character in a rational story to be smart, not a side characters job.
Worm got around having a smart side character by having Tattletale take a side role, as an actual Mission Control / Exposition side character who used her intelligence to give the reader more information on the setting, while letting the main character (Taylor) do the tactical thinking needed to win the actual fights. I don't know if you've read Worm, but if you have, imagine how much less epic the fight against Mannequin would feel, if Taylor had been talking to Tattletale over an ear piece, and it had been Tattletale that told her how to beat him?
What I feel this Naruto needs to do to make him seem smart, is to establish a mental area where he reigns supreme (in HPMOR Harry may not be as academic as Hermione [much to his chargin], and it is kind of implied that Draco is the better politician, but he is a tactical god compared to them both once he gets going), and then be shown using his prowess in that area to win. If his thing is going to be seeing novel ways to use existing techniques, then perhaps you could have a thought-sequence showing him figuring out a new way to use clones, or substition, and then make that discovery relevant to a future problem, so he can be shown achieving a victory via his brains, and his own brains alone? This is the reason I enjoyed the HPMOR Army Battles. In a plot where Harry really is outmached by everyone around him, the Battles remind us why Harry is the main character, not Hermione or Draco. This version of Naruto, I feel, needs something like that. Sorry for the rambling response, but I'm writing this excited because I've never had to chance to have such a good discussion with an author before and I cant wait for your answer.
u/Sophronius [+4] The Need to Become Stronger (15 hours later)
Hahah, of course I'm going to reply, receiving this kind of feedback is enormously helpful to me as a writer. :)
I think you hit the nail on the head when you mention Naruto's relation to other characters. It's not so much that he's stupid, just that he's being outshone by the other characters in every instance. That might also be the result of his personality being based on canon!Naruto, where exactly that is also the case except there it's in terms of power. Strangely enough it doesn't seem to cause any issues there, but perhaps that's because canon!Naruto has just enough awesome moments that the audience keeps rooting for him even though Sasuke upstages him for example. On the other hand, canon!Sakura has the exact same issue - she is useless in EVERY fight, and then complains about it, which makes the audience hate her. On the other hand, if she just had a few cool moments the audience would be much quicker to forgive her, but the fact that she doesn't have any powers makes that impossible.
Another part of the problem, I think, is that the reader associates social status with competence - if everyone treats Naruto like an idiot and makes him look like an idiot, then the reader will think he's an idiot even if he's not. In canon Naruto can show off his shadow clones to prove he's strong even if he's treated like dirt, but showing off intelligence in the same situation is not nearly as easy.
The final part of the issue is that I can't just have him think brilliant thoughts by himself, because that's just bad storytelling. I mean, yeah, The Waves Arisen makes Naruto look very smart by doing endless research into his powers by himself, but by god is it boring to read. And it serves no real purpose for the main story. Everything the main character does has to be in relation to other characters, because that's the reason people read stories in the first place.
So yeah, I think you're right: Naruto needs a clear area in which he excels, so that other characters can go "Huh, I guess he's not an idiot after all." And in Naruto's case, that has to be his ability to think outside of the box, as you mentioned. Naruto has basically no status awareness, has his social cluelessness makes him look like an idiot but it also allows him to come up with thoughts and ideas that Sakura would not dare dream of for example. He already has that ability, but he just hasn't had the chance to really show it off, and I need to focus on fixing that.
I've definitely read Worm, and it's a fantastic story for its immersion and worldbuilding. I'm not sure it's all that rational though, as everyone holds the conflict ball and people never go "Just shoot him with a sniper rifle, w/e". I mean, Skitter has a long range telepathic swarm at her disposal with no physical superpowers, and yet, how often does she end up just punching the villain into submission? It's ridiculous. :P
Also, Regent is awesome and should have gotten way more screentime.
(I've actually written two short Worm Omakes as part of the filler updates while I get the next act in order - maybe you'll like them)
I'm glad that you're enjoying the discussion! You mentioned being an aspiring writer yourself - is there anything you would like me to read or give feedback on?
u/crivtox [+1] Closed Time Loop Enthusiast (3 days later)
Some people ,like myself do enjoy seeing the Marín character doing a lot of research by hinself , I liked that in the waves arisen, Im not saying that you should do it since obiously other people could find it boring and you probably wouldn' t like to write that since you do find it voting , but I just wanted to point that its not a inherently boring thing .
u/sicutumbo [+2] (19 hours later)
I think that Naruto would be served well by going on a training montage once he gets back from the Land of Waves. He's seen that going on a low rank mission is no guarantee that it will stay that way. He's seen that he will be facing very intelligent people who have special abilities that he can't match with brute force. Yes, being intelligent is very helpful, but it can only do so much if Naruto only knows a handful of techniques. I've read a decent amount of Naruto fics recently, so I don't remember precisely what Naruto was doing before the Land of Waves in this fic, but he doesn't seem to have learned all that many techniques.
When he gets back, he needs to seriously put some effort into training. Learn sealing, or wind jutsu for AoE disruption, or Earth jutsu to create cover and manipulate the battlefield, or even just learn proficiency with weapons.
Essentially, he now recognizes The Need to become Stronger. And it's time he acts on it, or he will swiftly become hopelessly outgunned and unable to keep up with his team.
u/memzak [+5] Imperial Commonwealth of Endeavour (an hour later)
Whoop, another chapter. Very enjoyable. Something I really like about your writing is the characterization. Every character feels like they have their own hopes, dreams, deceptions yada yada. They all seem to have something 'more' to them. It's great to read something where everyone has depth to them and not just the main characters in a see of 2-dimensional cardboard cutouts.
I do agree with your main concern about making Naruto intelligent but not overtly so. It is a precarious balance to strike. As long as he grows over time and slowly becomes more experienced at actually applying his intelligence, with a side order of investigations in the nature of Chakra (even if he is just rehashing something all major villages have done at some point), I'll be happy. :)
Anyhoo, keep up the good work!
u/Sophronius [+4] The Need to Become Stronger (2 hours later)
I'm glad you like the characters! One of the things that keeps me writing is that I absolutely love getting into the heads of Team Seven and all the side-characters. I dunno, I guess it's because Naruto has so many characters with great potential that are just never really explored, and we haven't even gotten to the chunin exams arc yet. Talk about wasted potential there!
Seriously, why did Kishi write characters like Neji and then not do anything with them? His whole backstory with Hinata being kidnapped could have been resolved so beautifully after the Shinobi joined into an alliance with the Raikage taking the lead. Neji could have refused or better yet, tried to assassinated the Raikage, only for his uncle and Hinata to stop him. It would have tied in perfectly with the whole quest to get everyone to cooperate for the sake of peace, and would have made his ultimate sacrifice so much more meaningful.
u/Sophronius [+3] The Need to Become Stronger (a minute later)
And that’s it! That’s the end of act 2. Let me know what you thought of the story arc, if it was sufficiently original, if you thought all the plot points were neatly resolved, or whatever else is on your mind. It's always great to receive feedback.
There will probably be a delay of one week as I get the next Act in order – it’s always tricky to get everything to match up with the plot and make sure I don’t contradict myself. I also want to finally take a stab at rewriting the first (few) chapter(s) to make them more in line with the rest of the story, especially in terms of characterisation.
In the meantime, I’ll probably put up a few Omake’s / Crossover stories that I wrote some time ago so you guys won’t get bored waiting for the next chapter. Stay tuned!
u/sicutumbo [+2] (20 hours later)
A very nice take on canon. It's interesting to see it be a failure. I don't think many fics do that. I especially like how Kakashi handles the mission, and his perspective in general was very interesting. Hope to see more chapters soon.
u/MaddoScientisto [+2] (3 hours later)
I really enjoyed reading so far and the arc was great.
I don't remember much about canon but the "darkness" wasn't really a thing, right?
Anyway I can't wait for the chuunin exam to happen, lots of potentially interesting stuff there
u/Sophronius [+2] The Need to Become Stronger (16 hours later)
Yup, the darkness technique is definitely one of the major NTBS-only plotpoints. Though not, necessarily, something I just pulled out of nowhere. It's supposed to be one of those solvable mysteries like in HPMOR that make you go "oh, huh, that makes a lot of sense actually."
The next few (non-omake) chapters should give a better impression of how this technique functions. Should be interesting to see if people will start to speculate on it then.
u/crivtox [+1] Closed Time Loop Enthusiast (3 days later)
Do we actually have the information necessary to figure it out now or do we have to wait to the next chapters to start trying to solve it?
u/Sophronius [+1] The Need to Become Stronger (3 days later)
Well, everything's a balance of probabilities. Theoretically you could have guessed the entire plot just from reading the prologue + knowledge of canon, but you cannot be certain you're correct.
The more you see of the technique and the people who use it, the better equipped you'll be to solve that particular puzzle. But there have been enough hints I think at this point that it should be possible to figure it out.