58 KiB
[RT] [HF] Mother of Learning Chapter 71: Shadows of the Past
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Author: u/Xtraordinaire Team Glimglam*
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URL: https://www.fictionpress.com/s/2961893/71/Mother-of-Learning
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Score: 183
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Created: 2017-07-02T20:49:24
Post:
Comments:
u/loonyphoenix [+57] (41 minutes later)
This was the smoothest chapter of the last several. The fewest amount of typos, the prose felt good, the characters were more alive, the tensions were believable. I'm not sure what changed, but I really enjoyed the overall quality of this chapter a lot more than a few previous ones. Is this just me?
If it isn't, what's the reason? Wasn't this chapter delayed a week? Maybe /u/nobody103 should take the extra week of editing more often. Anyway, whatever it was, I hope it continues!
u/Xtraordinaire [+48] Team Glimglam (47 minutes later)
I think it's simply due to the nature of the chapter. 100% character interaction based, which was how MoL started and went for almost 2 arcs.
u/PurposefulZephyr [+49] (an hour later)
Besides the focus on character interaction, it was... oddly nostalgic.
We have Daimen finally meeting his family, having some uncomfortable truths revealed about him, and Zorian admitting that he was wrong about him.
We have Taiven finally returning, and kind of restarting their friendship, resolving old issues between them.
I'd say it was a somewhat special chapter, as it went back in more ways than one.
u/nytelios [+20] (5 hours later)
I'd like to think my review in c69 begging for more time loop character development had some sway! (excerpt in spoiler)
But judging by how fitting Taiven's date acceptance was and knowing the author loves throwing Chekhov's guns everywhere, I'm betting it was planned in advance.
These kinds of chapters are what drew me into MoL in the first place. If I had to explain, it's probably the appeal of using a time loop in a wholesome way to gradually understand people on a level deeper than you could if you only had one chance - who hasn't fantasized about a redo for a chat, a meeting, or even whole years of life? And of course, it's been a pleasure following Zorian the sourpuss as he repairs relationships and achieves some measure of self-actualization.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+7] (2 hours later)
Agreed. This chapter will likely stand out to me in retrospect . .
Then again, a lot of chapters in MoL are extremely memorable.
u/Aravan [+7] (47 minutes later)
The previous two chapters were also delayed IIRC.
u/-Fender- [+2] (a day later)
The previous chapter was delayed 1 week. This one was "delayed" because the original estimate was only 2 weeks after the last chapter, and the "delay" brought it to the usual schedule of 3 weeks between chapters.
u/Aravan [+1] (a day later)
Err, no. The usual schedule is, as you said, 3 weeks between chapters. Lets look at the dates.
July 2nd - Chapter 71 (4 weeks since previous chapter, a week of delay)
June 4th - Chapter 70 (4 weeks since previous chapter, a week of delay)
May 7th - Chapter 69 (2 weeks and 4 days since previous chapter, 3 days ahead of 3-week interval making up the Chapter 68 delay)
April 19th - Chapter 68
So as you can see, I was correct in saying the last two chapters were also delayed.
u/notintractable [+8] (59 minutes later)
I think it's because the chapter didn't have as much action in it. Truthfully, words are not the best way to convey fights, and /u/nobody103 isn't exactly a prodigy at writing them either. But he's pretty good at writing the SOL-like stuff.
u/OutOfNiceUsernames [+37] fear of last pages (2 hours later)
Huh, I’ve actually been liking his way of describing fight scenes, so far.
In many other stories I often find myself criticising the style in which fights are being described — as well as the actual events themselves happening during the fights. Here, the underlying magical system feels well-balanced for powering fight scenes, and the actions (or inactions) of the combatants aren’t deliberately made stupid for the sake of plot-railroading, etc.
If you know any stories that manage to present even better fights than MoL does, can you please drop them as recommendations? I really like myself some good fight scenes. ._.
u/SevereCircle [+22] (2 hours later)
I also like MoL's fight scenes.
Worm did them well. They were a bit too frequent, but they were good. Especially the Endbringer fights.
u/Friedoobrain [+7] (12 hours later)
Well it's a completely different style of fantasy but I think the best fights I've read are the ones in Joe Abercrombie's books. Both the trilogy and the standalones have really fluid fight scenes.
In a more puply vein, I also enjoyed the fight scenes in Will Wight's Traveler's Gate series. THe rest of the writings quality is... debatable.
Mind you none of these are rational in any way shape or form.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+5] (2 hours later)
I second the desire for good fight scene examples. I don't like fight scenes that much, but I like seeing things done well. Lol
u/SometimesATroll [+50] (an hour later)
Anyone else really want to know what's up with Fortov now? There's almost certainly something up.
Shot-in-the-dark hypothesis: He's trying to use rituals/potions/blood magic to make himself less of a failure of a mage, causing bouts of rage as a side effect. This resulted in his anger at Daimen (or maybe he interrupted a ritual) and the pushing of whatshername.
u/Xtraordinaire [+20] Team Glimglam (an hour later)
I've said it quite some time ago that Zorian makes peace with his family members. So for me it's out of the question whether Fortov spills the beans some time in the future. He will. The real question is whether the Kazinski Daddy issue will be resolved and how.
u/None [+28] (an hour later)
The real question is whether Kazinski Daddy issues are worth resolving.
u/bludvein [+22] (an hour later)
This. Not sure his relationship with good old dad is even worth salvaging considering his total condescension that time Zorian fell into a coma from getting mauled mentally by the aranea. Fortov might be worth reconnecting to, but the parents deserve their fate.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+11] (2 hours later)
I disagree in a sense. I think the father is a jerk and should be avoided in the end, however Zorian may get useful insights into his family by trying to really understand each of his family members. The rationale is, like it or not, a person is often shaped in major ways by their family. It can deepen Zorian's self-understanding and give him perspective to learn more about his parents.
u/Teal_Thanatos [+7] (3 hours later)
I don't even remember which chapter that was from
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+18] (3 hours later)
Chapter 035
Interestingly, this was the first time since he got stuck in the time loop that he had spoken to his father again. It only took a single snide comment about his 'weak, fainting son' for him to remember why. If he was lucky, this would be the last restart he had to interact with the man.
(A while back, I made a spreadsheet that pulls every chapter into a searchable text.)
u/Teal_Thanatos [+7] (4 hours later)
that's impressive and cool
u/None [+5] (19 hours later)
[removed]
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+5] (a day later)
True. But with a google spreadsheet, I can:
- Automate the copying and extraction of the HTML.
- Put it in the cloud, which means it's easily searchable from my phone, which is where I usually use reddit.
- Write formulas to bring together in one place all paragraphs containing the search term. MoL is a large document, so going all around it is more difficult than a document containing containing every paragraph with the word "father", for example.
u/MoralRelativity [+1] (3 days later)
And Google spreadsheets are shareable.
Hint. Hint. :)
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+1] Father of Learning (2 months later)
I just made it into an iBook, it has a built in search function that kind of sucks but can be useful, plus I"m a sucker for that interface
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (2 months later)
Cool.
What's an iPhone? :)
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+9] (an hour later)
The real, real question is #KazinskiDadddyAsRR.
u/-Fender- [+15] (an hour later)
Ibery.
But we know that Fortov's pretty terrible at alchemy, and blood magic is rare enough that it's also very unlikely. Rituals are a possibility though, I guess. Doubt it, but it's possible. Also possible that Fortov has similar expertise in alchemy to Zach's, being an expert in a few specific areas but lacking general knowledge and expertise.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+7] (an hour later)
This is a better hypothesis than the nothing I've come up with to explain his aberrant behavior. Definitely some kind of sketchy project would explain the unwillingness let Daimen into his dormitory.
I'm skeptical of blood magic as it's both rare and extreme. Potions from an source, though? Maybe. Fortov may have something similar to ADHD, so his difficulties may be a deep and consuming part of his life.
u/OutOfNiceUsernames [+13] fear of last pages (an hour later)
I feel like there was a minor case of PoorCommunicationKills in this chapter in Fortov’s regard.
I mean, sure, it’s completely in-character for Zorian to not have a slightest clue about Fortov’s reaction, but wouldn’t he at least ask Damien to describe Fortov’s behaviour (the specific things Fortov has said, etc) a bit more?
u/cfusion25 [+26] (2 hours later)
I mean, I don't think Zorian cares. His expectations for his family is pretty much non-existent. In his mind, Fortov's actions are just confirming Zorian's mental image of him. A crappy mage with his only skill being his ability to socialize. Who has suffered living in Damien's shadow as much or more than Zorian. His hostile response probably made sense in Zorian's mind and he felt no need to pursue it. Zorian doesn't even check to make sure Fortov survives the invasion night, why would he care to check on his mental stability.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (2 hours later)
Agreed. This oversight was pretty glaring.
u/Frommerman [+2] (a day later)
I was thinking he was Red Robe for a moment because he wanted to make sure he never interacted with Zorian. But then I realized why that made no sense at all.
u/Xtraordinaire [+37] Team Glimglam (33 minutes later)
Yeah, they do a lot of crazy stuff indeedy.
Zach is the heir of the emperor's line, isn't he?
And it was an amazingly sweet chapter. Personally I'm not a fan of combat-heavy ones, which we are bound to have more an more as we approach the finale.
u/over_who [+22] Aleph you are going to die (37 minutes later)
I'm pretty sure that he is the most direct heir, so the question is does the Sovereign's Gate stamp his soul when the loop is about to start, or are the souls of all possible heirs stamped and one is brought in on priority?
u/HPMOR_fan [+12] (an hour later)
Interesting idea that the Orb may be reacting to Zach because of who he is, not because of the marker. That would mean he'd be able to do it outside the loop as well.
I agree the non-combat chapters are interesting. I do like it when more happens though. I'm waiting for them to take the Orb to the Gate. Maybe they won't need to bring all 5 keys in one restart. Also strange they didn't ask for Xvim's help with the Orb.
u/SevereCircle [+4] (an hour later)
I like the combat heavy ones too, there's just less to discuss about them.
u/TheAtomicOption [+4] (9 hours later)
I really like the combat heavy ones, but these ones are good too. I'm kinda head over heals about this story in general though and have a hard time thinking of any serious criticisms.
u/OutOfNiceUsernames [+31] fear of last pages (an hour later)
Firstly, great character interactions and dialogues in this chapter. And I think the recent delays were likely partially aimed to make their choices look smoother in chapters like this, and partially to prepare the scenery for Koth as a new ”unlocked area”.
You're fortunate you have the Taramatula family to shield you from all this while we figure out what to do.”
They could’ve been the ones to have leaked it in the first place.
“Oh, so you can create a simulacrum too?” Ulanna asked casually
And for some reason Ulanna creeps me out almost as much as Pariston Hill did, from HxH.
You mentioned the notebooks you're carrying across restarts for Xvim and the others. As it happens, I've taken the time to talk with Xvim yesterday.
Also, in the possible subset of manuipulative!Damien fanfics, this could be him faking an improved attitude because of the awareness of the encroaching restart erasure. He realises that his current version will die if he doesn’t actively take the initiative to stay in Zorian’s awareness circle, so he does his best to not get pushed out of it, while he has the chance, and to build a positive reputation with Zorian.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+17] (an hour later)
Re Manipulative Daimen, I agree, however his interactions with Orissa lead me believe the personality he is showing is genuine.
u/serge_cell [+11] (12 hours later)
Successful manipulative people are successful because their feelings almost always genuine. They develop ability to change vector of their genuine feelings in whatever direction they feel beneficial to them
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+4] (a day later)
That's a very good point. What I rather mean, however, is that his personality seems consistent. We've seen him act kind of pouty, both in front of Orissa and other Kothans (?) as well as alone with Zorian. If that was an emotional change of vector, I feel she'd have reacted differently and Zorian would have picked up on it.
u/thrawnca [+27] Carbon-based biped (15 hours later)
I give it a week before Zach bounces into the room, saying, "Hey Zorian! The Taramatula were totally right about all the overpowered magical guardians and deathtraps in the orb! That was awesome!"
u/over_who [+55] Aleph you are going to die (35 minutes later)
Every chapter I wait for the Silverlake tie in, and every chapter I end up disappointed.
Honestly I love these chapters with minimal plot progression, it means that we are only inching towards the end, and while the wait is harrowing, I will not complain about more Mother of Learning.
u/Kodix [+19] (3 hours later)
Honestly I love these chapters with minimal plot progression, it means that we are only inching towards the end, and while the wait is harrowing, I will not complain about more Mother of Learning.
It's such an incredibly rare thing when that happens. The only other story I remember feeling that for was Spice and Wolf.
It'll be so very bittersweet when MoL ends.
u/cretan_bull [+15] (5 hours later)
Hopefully there will be fanfiction after it ends.
nobody103 has done an extraordinarily good job with worldbuilding and the magic system is extremely well thought out. As a fictional setting, I think MoL is unusually well suited to fanfiction or RPG campaigns.
u/SevereCircle [+17] (6 hours later)
I'd say there's room for sequels in the same setting without time loops.
u/GodKiller999 [+11] (a day later)
A story where we actually get to see what happens after the timeloop is done would be amazing.
u/talks2deadpeeps [+2] The Culture (2 days later)
Personally, I'd like to find out why the gods were disconnected from the world.
u/megazver [+2] (2 days later)
They explain it. They're disconnected from the loop universe, because, y'know, it's a weird artificial simulation.
u/talks2deadpeeps [+5] The Culture (2 days later)
The gods are disconnected from the real world, as well. You are thinking of the spirit realms.
u/monkyyy0 [+1] (4 days later)
Most likely they got killed at some point, magic seems to give exponential returns, with at least two methods of life extension mentioned and semi-common knowledge; arch mages who figure out how to extend their lives without downside will be well posed to keep extending their life untill they rivil the gods
u/talks2deadpeeps [+1] The Culture (4 days later)
I don't know... There are things that supposedly only the gods can do anything with, like creating/copying souls. And things like the hydra can no longer be created, as far as any of our characters know.
u/monkyyy0 [+1] (4 days later)
If there are things only gods can do, they will be dying in the time loop in a pit of existential despair.
Which last I checked thats not this author
u/talks2deadpeeps [+1] The Culture (4 days later)
Chapter 51:
"The gods originally gave souls to living beings in order to record their thoughts and forms, so that their lives may be preserved after death and their deeds properly judged in the afterlife," Batak said. "For that reason, the gods, who had intimate knowledge of how souls worked, were capable of many miraculous things. So long as they had access to a person's soul, they could bring them back to life, even if their bodies had been reduced to ash and scattered into the winds. They could peer into their soul to examine their entire life from the moment they were born. They could restore a person's youth by regressing their forms to the state they once possessed. According to some stories, they could even create an identical copy of a person, indistinguishable from the original in every way."
Though I suppose that implies that anyone with "intimate knowledge" of how souls work can do that stuff.
u/monkyyy0 [+1] (4 days later)
this is a story that by definition a happy ending will be impossible and has been marked by progress inch by inch every chapter; fully expect the final scene to involve throwing galaxies around https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/146226/2799617-1317695213653.jpg
u/talks2deadpeeps [+1] The Culture (4 days later)
I doubt either Zorian or Zach will be as straight-up powerful as Quatach-Ichl even by the end of the series, and will have to rely on trickery or "luck" to defeat him.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+16] (an hour later)
Yes, 100% yes. I love these slower, deeper chapters.
u/KOPCAPUXA [+17] (8 hours later)
Z&Z should show up to Silverlake holding the orb. There is no way she would ignore that sight. And then they should trade the orb for her knowledge of dimentionalism. They generally should trade the orb for knowledge in subsequent restarts.
u/GeeJo [+32] Custom Flair (2 hours later)
Honestly though, even if Zorian returns to Silverlake with a basket of spider eggs, she's just gonna shrug and send him for some jackalope droppings or snipe beaks or something.
u/SevereCircle [+54] (2 hours later)
"Thanks! Now fetch me the brain of Quatach-Ichl."
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+12] (3 hours later)
hahaha i'd die
u/thrawnca [+14] Carbon-based biped (15 hours later)
At least, after that, you could be sure she wouldn't ask for anything more. Because anyone who can kill QI and loot his corpse, you don't jerk around.
u/talks2deadpeeps [+4] The Culture (a day later)
You don't have to kill him, just disconnect his soul from whatever body he is currently using. He's probably basically impossible to kill, having had a thousand years to prepare defences and also having blessings from multiple gods.
u/Xtraordinaire [+3] Team Glimglam (a day later)
Trick question, liches don't have brains. Phylacteries, though...
u/TheAtomicOption [+11] (9 hours later)
haha yeah I've definitely been looking forward to that too. Soul Magic in general is definitely one area where Zorian has some major levelups left to get and Silverlake was introduced as one of the people who might help with that.
It's pretty clear that the Silverlake arc can't be completed until Zach & Zorian figure out how to cleanly kill the grey hunter, so reading the recent chapter about them fighting it (and still losing) was pretty exciting. I'm kinda surprised they haven't figured it out yet. You'd think a high powered gun or something would let them do it.
Given the difficulty of and general lateness-in-the-story of getting Silverlake's help, my bet is on Silverlake being the one to finally provide Zorian with a way to get Soul Sight that doesn't require waiting 15 years outside the loop. Soul Sight really seems like something that any respectable archmage should get as it unlocks an entire new branch of rare and powerful magic.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (8 days later)
Inb4 Silverlake is RR.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+21] (an hour later)
Fortav's reaction Daimen seemed bit suspicious and extreme even given his dislike for Daimen. Anyone else feel it's a bit surprising?
u/None [+13] (14 hours later)
Fortav is RR.
u/Sceptically [+7] (a day later)
Fortav probably thinks his parents sent Daimen to talk to him about his failures and how much he's damaging the family's reputation with his antics.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+7] (a day later)
That's a good point. I think I'd flip out too if I thought my parents sent Daimen all the way from Koth to motivate me.
u/None [+20] (4 hours later)
[deleted]
u/TheAtomicOption [+8] (9 hours later)
hehe This one will definitely have the most tension and possibly the most potential for things to go places. But longer term I really liked Raynee for the love interest. Marrying into a bloodline would be really cool. She's described as really good looking, and I'm both kinda shallow about looks and personally feeling partial to redheads atm.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+1] Father of Learning (2 months later)
Dude, it's Spear of Resolve/Cyrorian Web Harem X Zorian, no one else can handle him. And Xvim.
u/TheAtomicOption [+1] (2 months later)
ROFL writing a flash fiction?
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+1] Father of Learning (2 months later)
It's the only logical conclusion
u/deadhunters [+4] (a day later)
I keep asking myself this but how did Zorian ended up hanging out with Taiven ? who's 2 years older, for someone as anti social as Zorian who doesn't even really know people from his class, it just seemed out of nowhere, was it ever explained ?
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (3 days later)
Well, I don't think it's been fully explained, but it wouldn't be that hard for them to come in contact somehow during his first two years. And she apparently likes form-fitting clothes :D and was nice to him (relatively), so even Zorian wasn't going to just ignore her.
u/coldinchitown [+17] (39 minutes later)
The character development in this is just wonderful.
Glad that we'll be seeing more of Damien over time.
u/MereInterest [+18] (an hour later)
There's nothing in the current chapter that points to this, but there's a theory I've been playing around with since going through a complete reread. I haven't seen this idea floating around, and wanted to discuss it.
Red Robe is the original time traveler, not Zach.
This would explain why the time loop was started a month prior to the solstice, rather than at the solstice when it would be most efficient. If the time loop were started by Red Robe, he would naturally start it early, so that he could optimize the invasion prior to the solstice and the priomordial-unleashing ritual.
This theory isn't perfect by any means. Quatach-Ichl seems unaware of the time loop and dismissive of Red Robe, when we see them near each other in Chapter 26. As an expert on dimensional magic, as evidenced by his design of the Ibasan gate, I would expect him to be involved with the Sovereign Gate. It also requires additional details to explain how Zach became attached to the time loop.
u/HPMOR_fan [+27] (an hour later)
I think Zach is the original but RR may have initiated it. The Gate only works with certain bloodlines, so RR needed to bring Zach into it. But since pre-loop RR is aware of this, he started each loop with the knowledge until he was able to figure out a way to duplicate the marker for himself. Zach also starts each loop in his bed which would be a strange place to start if you initiated the loop intentionally.
u/MereInterest [+13] (an hour later)
The Gate only works with certain bloodlines
Do you have a reference for this? I remember there being a discussion that Zach has many social advantages that he can use to take better advantage of the time loop, but I don't recall there being a limitation to certain bloodlines.
u/over_who [+12] Aleph you are going to die (an hour later)
We don't understand exactly how the gate works, but the above is heavily implied by the fact that the Sovereign Gate was in the possession of the Noveda family.
u/HPMOR_fan [+4] (an hour later)
No, this is my guess. I don't think there as been much said about who can use the Gate.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+7] (an hour later)
Well, we know that anyone with the mark can participate in the Gate mechanism. For this reason, I don't think the Gate works purely or even partially along blood lines.
u/HPMOR_fan [+5] (2 hours later)
But how does one get the original mark? It's intended for there to be only one marked person at a time, but it can be hacked. Maybe it doesn't work by bloodlines, but the Gate was being stored in the Noveda estate until it was sold or given away by the caretaker. That would be a pretty big coincidence if a Noveda just happened to become marked and enter the Gate after it was just taken from his family's storage.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+5] (2 hours later)
I don't necessarily disagree with anything you're saying except that I feel it's just as possible for people to take pride in the bloodline idea, and thus ensure an heir like Zach (if he is an heir) gets a marked applied.
The reason why I say Zach may not necessarily be a direct heir (though I do lean in that direction) is because the Gate could have come into his family's possession in any number of ways. To give just one example, perhaps Zach's ancestors were friends with the last heir and before the last heir died, he decided to give the Gate to the Novedas rather than let the government take custody.
u/-Fender- [+17] (an hour later)
Unlikely, for the same reasons as mentioned repeatedly in the story. Zach never experienced a premature restart ending without his death before the early invasion (bar a few occasions where being assassinated is equally likely but unconfirmed), and he has a more complete version of the marker than Zorian has. If Red Robe had the same kind of marker, he could have easily tracked both Zorian and Zach with a similar ritual as the one Zorian learned from Alanic, and he could have immediately confirmed that there was just one new time traveler, and not the dozens of members of the Aranea colony. There would also have been essentially no reason to keep Zach as intact and free as he was, or to even include him in the time loop at all, if he wasn't related. And why would the Noveda hold an Imperial artifact like the Sovereign Gate in their treasury in the first place, if they weren't from the lineage of the First Emperor?
The most likely scenario is the stated one. Zach is the original time traveler, who eventually encountered Red Robe. Red Robe found a way to tag along, and pressed Zach for all the information he knew about the time loop. Red Robe then removed Zach's memory of the early restarts, of all time loop-related information, as well as of any encounters he may have had with Red Robe, and placed sanctions on his mind to distract him from thinking certain things.
Zach would have never been involved in the time loop if he weren't the original time traveler. And the reason the Imperial artifacts respond to him better than Zorian is probably because Zach's lineage traces directly to the First Emperor, which would also explain why he was the one chosen for the time loop.
u/MereInterest [+6] (2 hours later)
Most of those depend on the particulars of how the time loop interacts with the marker, which we don't know yet. Regarding the premature restarts, it would depend on how the loop decides that it needs to restart. It could be either "No Marked individuals are alive." or "A Marked individual has died." In the latter case, if Red Robe has a complete marker, either Zach's death or Red Robe's death could restart the loop, but Red Robe had not died prematurely.
Similarly, the tracking ritual may fail due to minor issues as well. It tracks all copies of the reference object, not all copies of the marker. When Zorian's fragmented marker is used as the reference, it finds those fragments as part of the complete marker. When Red Robe's complete marker is used as a reference, it does not find Zorian's fragmented marker, because it is looking for a complete copy. This is completely untested, but would fit with how the ritual is described.
As to why Zach exists, I could imagine him as an intentionally antagonistic creation. That is, Red Robe creating one additional time traveler in order to throw a wrench in plans, in order to test them against unforeseen circumstances. We know that the invaders have additional allies in summoned demons outside the loop, and so a deliberate random element is a useful thing for testing. Alternatively, Red Robe may be a cultist-Zach who created an ensouled protagonist-simulacrum-Zach in order to take care of mundane duties. I'm iffy on why Zach exists if Red Robe is the original, and don't have a good answer for it.
I'm not convinced that ownership of Imperial artifacts has any major information content. Given the Splinter Wars, I would be surprised if major artifacts weren't scattered around.
Thank you for the critique. I am not entirely sold on the idea of Red Robe being the original, so I wanted to get more eyes on it. It explains the timing of the loop with the invasion, but raises other issues.
u/Cheese_Ninja [+3] (19 hours later)
For the moment I'm still going with RR being a Veyers who is merged/possessed by a far older entity that actually had knowledge of the Gate prior to the 1 month early activation of the loops. I've been running with "a fire elemental/spirit from the result of the ritual to activate his Boranova bloodline".
But for some reason he himself wasn't capable of gaining the original Controller marker, so had to allow Zach to be the true Controller, but still had some method of faking the marker or entering the loop.
The timing of Veyer's disappearance is too coincidental, and the fact that despite all of Zorian and Zach's efforts, he was impossible to find means that it wasn't simple either. If he was dead or killed or soulkilled, they still probably should have been able to find some evidence unless there was heavy warding done or a pocket dimension involved.
One of the rules the Guardian gave was that 2 Controller markers were impossible. They couldn't be given inside the loop by the normal method, only by whatever stroke of luck Zorian had with the Lich's attack. Outside the loop they could be given by either the Maker or one of its Agents, but that would delete/override the former Controller Marker.
u/over_who [+8] Aleph you are going to die (an hour later)
My current red robe theory is that RR is actually a cultist, or at least is affiliated with them. RR is the specialist mage the invasion is using for dimensionalism, and is responsible for creating the ritual to free the primordial. However, at some point he realized that he was in a pocket dimension b/c of something Zach did. Then, he befriends Zach, and gets one of the deranged invader-aligned soul mages (either Sudomir or Quatach-Ichl) to alter his soul and give him the stamp. He wipes zach, leaving the false trails.
u/TheAtomicOption [+10] (9 hours later)
One thing we still don't know a ton about is Soul Sight. Remember in Ch46 when Zorian first invaded the Sudomir's northern mansion? When he reached in to flip his marker's reset switch Sudomir saw him do it and asked what he was doing.
Given Red Robe's Soul Kill ability it's extremely likely that he also has Soul Sight. If his ability is strong enough, he may have been able to just see Zach's marker and learn enough from that to be able to join the loop.
u/zeropriority [+11] (14 hours later)
Your theory sounds plausible to me
As for the soul sight,a quote from chapter 026:
You are shielding yourself from divinations," Red Robe said in his distorted voice. "Good. At least you're smarter than that fool Zach. Can you believe that even after all these decades in the time loop he still hasn't learned how to hide himself from the most childish of locator spells? You, on the other hand, have been in the time loop for, what? Three, four years? And you already know how to shield yourself from my soul perception."
u/renegadeduck [+4] picky but enthusiastic (22 hours later)
Huh. How does he know how long Zorian has been in the time loop?
I suppose he might have seen changes that weren't made by Zach and didn't seem to be the result the supposed Aranean loopers.
u/Cheese_Ninja [+4] (a day later)
I always found that bit interesting as well, but I'm pretty sure how RR guessed the start of Zorian's inclusion into the loops. Remember how Zach was missing completely in loops 2-8? We've never had an explanation for that, so the only real options I've come up with are either (1) a mechanism of the Marker/Gate to isolate and protect the Controller after suffering soul damage or (2) someone was hiding Zach away, possibly even preventing him from waking up earlier.
Also, RR's "soulkill" ability shouldn't be taken as proof as his prowess with soul magic/as a necromancer, since that was a loop-specific altering spell. On the other hand, his ability to create an apparent simulacra can be taken as evidence to his abilities, and his statement about soul sight (although RR may have been lying and located Zorian through other means.).
u/None [+7] (3 hours later)
Actually it'd make sense if he didn't realize it from something Zach did. What if he noticed something was off like the priests do. And because he specialized in dimensionalism he was able to form a guess. And zach's screaming I'm a time travel attracted him when he'd otherwise be more skeptical. Or if Zach's broadcasting himself as a time traveler caused an Epiphany. And RR to become interested in him.
u/Teal_Thanatos [+4] (3 hours later)
Fortav is RR
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (8 days later)
I feel RR as the original looper has been discussed at length, no?
u/MereInterest [+1] (8 days later)
Probably, but nowhere that I was able to find. If you have a link to previous discussion on it, I would appreciate it.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (8 days later)
(: In case you find it interesting or helpful to know how I looked:
I did a google search using the following, then did "Control + F" to highlight mentions of "RR ", " RR", and then "Red Robe" on each page.
site:http://www.reddit.com/r/rational "original looper"Below are three discussions I found:
u/MereInterest [+1] (8 days later)
Awesome, thank you. I had been reading the comments here since I caught up, but I must have missed the thread on chapter 66. Time to go a'reading.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (8 days later)
:D
u/blazinghand [+16] Chaos Undivided (53 minutes later)
Damien, perhaps you won't get to fix everything with your family that you want to, but maybe you can at least help out Zorian realize how fucked up shit is
u/notintractable [+13] (57 minutes later)
Liked this chapter a lot! Also, did anyone else start thinking that Fortov might be red robe?
u/Menolith [+15] Unworthy Opponent (an hour later)
It's been so long since that was the hot topic, but didn't the Controller (i.e. RR) leave the loop? And shouldn't that instakill his future incarnations in the loops like with the Aranea?
u/notintractable [+10] (an hour later)
It's either that he gets instakilled or switches places with self in the real world. So it leaves open the possibility!
u/Menolith [+13] Unworthy Opponent (an hour later)
Fortov interacted with Zorian consistently at the beginning too, didn't he?
If he were Red Robe, he'd have to put up an extremely impressive act to keep his appearances and actions unchanging across restarts. Simulacra can't get around that requirement.
u/TheAtomicOption [+8] (9 hours later)
I don't think Fortov is RR, but ...
I still think the "insta-kill" is more just telling the gate "don't recreate this item on the next restart". There's no reason to suspect that leaving would cause this to happen since we learned from the gate itself that the loop wasn't designed to continue operating after the user leaves. When the user leaves, their soul is copied into their outside world body. There's nothing about that process which tells us whether that would necessarily remove the original soul from the simulation. The simulation isn't expected to keep running so we're already well into areas that the original creators weren't planning for. Frankly it's a testament to the design (and they're just darn lucky) that it's "failing" gracefully enough not to just destroy them.
u/kuilin [+3] (16 hours later)
Just destroying them would be the opposite of the machine failing its intended goal... The arguably "best" way (with respect to the creators' goals) is to halt immediately after the controller exits, regardless if other controllers are in the loop.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (8 days later)
I think both methods are pretty valid:
- Terminate if the controller leaves.
- Terminate if the gate no longer senses a marker inside.
Both conditions imply the controller is done with the loop. If the creators never anticipated multiple controllers and if the second condition was used, then we'd get the current situation.
Also, what if the gate simply was not built to sense whether the controller enters or leaves the loop, but rather is built to monitor the health of the marker. We know the loop resets if the gate senses the controller is killed or if the marker experiences damage. I can see it making sense that if RR has a marker and leaves, the gate might not sense anything wrong because it's still sensing a healthy marker inside the gate---the marker belonging to Zach.
u/-Fender- [+15] (an hour later)
Holy fuck. Has Fortov bothered Zorian even once since RR left the time loop about the purple creeper salve? Zorian seems to believe that being at Imaya's is enough to discourage Fortov, but it might be because he just no longer looks for Zorian.
Not sure if that's indicative of anything, though. Might be that Zorian's right and Fortov's just being discouraged of looking for him, might be that the changes to Cyoria with the death of the Aranea changes the events enough that Ibery no longer gets pushed down in purple creepers (can't remember if we've heard about it even once since Zorian's been back from Knyazov Dveri). But if it's no longer happening, then it could indicate a change in Fortov.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+7] (an hour later)
I considered this, however it doesn't seem likely to me that Fortav would push Ibery into a bush every single restart, then ask Zorian for help each time. But maybe it's all a diversion. Has he continued do this even after RR left?
He is perhaps one of the few people at the academy that Zorian has not investigated in-depth.
u/notintractable [+6] (an hour later)
Well, my theory about this is that potentially the invasion needs something Ibery has, and Fortov throws her into the weeds as a distraction to get something from her. In addition, when Zorian says he pushes her in every time, is this from his previous experience at the beginning of the story or has he actually observed this in every restart? I doubt that Zorian would notice this event without Fortov coming to bug him.
u/4bpp [+13] (4 hours later)
Daimen gave Zorian a meaningful look. Though Zorian didn't know for sure what he was trying to tell him, he could guess. While finding a way to operate the orb without a marker was not a priority for him and Zach, it would mean a lot for Daimen. He was probably well aware that Zorian had no intention whatsoever of revealing his abilities to Daimen outside the time loop, which would make those control spells absolutely crucial to his mission. Without them, even removing the orb from its resting place would be impossible, greatly complicating everything.
If Zorian does not reveal his abilities to Daimen outside of the time loop, how or why would he reveal the control spells for the orb to him, and what benefit is there for Daimen-inside-the-loop (the instance which knows about Zorian's abilities, no less) to figure out the control spells?
(I suppose this connects to a more general issue: among the people who accept the time loop at face value, why don't we see at least some instances of apathy or at least some degree of similar behavioural adjustment or suspension of long-term plans as they realise that what they are doing is entirely inconsequential?)
u/ddaonica [+2] (2 days later)
The thing is, without Zorian's help they will never find the orb anyway, so won't need any control spells in the first place.
u/nytelios [+12] (6 hours later)
Loved the new chapter, left review on fictpress though.
Question for /u/nobody103, have you considered putting MoL up on topwebfiction for more exposure? I've heard it can net a heap of readers.
I just searched and noticed that MoL was quite underrepresented on Web Fiction Guide with only TWO!! glowing reviews and such a travesty can't be brooked. I'll go increase it by 50% as soon as I can.
u/nobody103 [+17] (13 hours later)
MoL is disqualified from appearing on topwebfiction because it's a Fictionpress story.
u/nytelios [+2] (8 days later)
For some reason, MoL is now up on topwebfiction!
I don't know if anyone besides the author is allowed to submit a banner. But I was thinking about making a request in pocketsizedsleuth's tumblr since his rendition of Zorian seemed like a good fit for a fancy banner. Should I go poke him?
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (8 days later)
I too just noticed this! And not only is MoL on TWF, but it's at second place! That's not an easy feat!
u/DTravers [+7] (14 hours later)
Re. TWF
Note: we do not list stories on large sites like FictionPress or Authonomy, as they have their own very extensive communities, and we really can’t handle the volume. We
u/TheIssac [+10] (an hour later)
GREAT chapter ! =) Really enjoyed it... was a bit worried because the last few chapter focused so much on the plot progression , and the actual character development seemed to get stuck, but now this chapter changed that again ^^ please more like it. The way Zorian will interact with old friends and his family after the timeloop is very important so i want to see what he will make with it. The story about Fortov and Ibery, his friendship with the almost forgotten Benisek, Taiven, Akoja (one of the most developed characters but with not much involvement in the plot is actually interesting) ,maybe even a story involving Byrn Ivarin (i doubt it), maybe another story consulting the librarian searching for books (should be very easy to get a high level pass now) etc...
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+7] (2 hours later)
Byrn was great. He was one of the first characters that showed Zorian how much he overlooks the people around him.
u/GlueBoy [+12] anti-skub (2 hours later)
Was the whole "teach me to control the orb" thing suspicious as hell to anyone else, or is it just me? It seems that learning to control the orb is similar to learning to replicate the effect of having the marker on your soul.
Combined with Daimen's private time with Fortrov and Kiri (and his perpetual mind blank), the whole chapter appears like it's foreshadowing future shenanigans on his part. Daimen is definitely on my radar.
u/Not_Just_You [+15] (2 hours later)
is it just me
Probably not
u/winz3r [+4] (13 hours later)
Damn that bot's everywhere
u/kuilin [+5] (16 hours later)
Is it just me or are you going to reply stop saying that to this?
u/Not_Just_You [+1] (16 hours later)
Stop saying that
u/HeroOfOldIron [+1] (3 days later)
Is it just me or is it just me?
u/Not_Just_You [+2] (3 days later)
Stop saying that
u/lostatnet [+3] (a day later)
Actually, I think teaching Daimen how to control the orb may be practice for when they need to control the sovereign gate. If Zorian can learn what he can control without the marker, then he can learn how to trick the Guardian to giving him "higher loop control functions" like "soul kill".
u/AurelianoTampa [+8] (19 hours later)
He kind of felt bad for his simulacrum, who would be stuck with them for the next several days. Oh well, at least he had Kirma and Torun to talk to - those two were fairly interesting and he suspected he might be able to broker some kind of trade with at least one of them.
No no no! Bad Zorian! Don't leave your simulacrum running for several times longer than advised, and definitely not in a location where it's going to be bored silly and will likely get up to no good!
I seriously keep waiting for this simulacrum situation to blow up somehow...
u/nytelios [+8] (a day later)
I'm thinking Zorian's pretty confident in his self-awareness and all the empirical evidence from his summons so far that he feels safe leaving his simulacrums to their own devices.
What's the worst that could happen? Finding he suddenly needs to two-time Taiven with another girl on a date?
u/MoralRelativity [+1] (3 days later)
That date could make for a great little fanfiction.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (3 days later)
Eh, Taiven can hardly complain if she has competition by now.
With Zorian reintegrating their most important memories, his simulacra have no real reason to rebel. They can't physically survive the reset, but they get more continuity than any non-Controller. What would they fight for?
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (8 days later)
This is a great point. Zorian can be mean to his simulacra, but hopefully he's getting better at that. Other than this, his simulacra are treated better than most would be, consider they are reintegrated into Zorian via mind magic.
u/None [+4] (23 hours later)
Oh, it will. And with glorious results. If not in the time loops, then in the real world by the simulacrum proposing to different girls or something along those lines.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (8 days later)
Well, he's been using simulacra for weeks at a time when he was trying to get to Koth. It should be okay. :)
u/SevereCircle [+11] (an hour later)
I really liked the character development in this chapter.
I still find Taiven condescending and annoying. Even in this context she's quick to blame Zorian when it's clearly her own fault. Still, it was interesting to learn more about her.
u/OutOfNiceUsernames [+26] fear of last pages (an hour later)
when it's clearly her own fault
I think she had a very good point. It can be very hard to understand and predict what the opposite person is really feeling when they not only fail at giving you proper feedback but also actively try to bottle-up their real emotions and constantly maintain a fake façade instead.
u/SevereCircle [+6] (4 hours later)
People put up walls because they need to. There are mitigating factors that make her mistake more understandable but it was still her mistake.
u/bludvein [+13] (an hour later)
She acknowledged her own fault when it came down to it, so it's hard to blame her. Zorian was even more unconsciously insulting than she was at the beginning, so it's no wonder they got along.
u/Kodix [+8] (3 hours later)
I felt the same towards Taiven before, to some extent, but this chapter makes her far more relatable. Hell - I previously had the impression that she was a popular girl that only knew Zorian tangentially. Finding out that he's one of her only three friends is a bit shocking.
u/None [+5] (7 hours later)
Great chapter tbh, after all the combat heavy chapters character interactions like these only brings in development to them bringing out a new side. I am interested in what Fortov is doing exactly.
u/Fomalhaut-b [+5] (a day later)
If this story was an RPG, this is the chapter where you've finished a dungeon crawl, and you go back to town and catch up on all of your NPCs.
It was good to have some quality time with a few of the side characters.
I've honestly always wondered why Zorian never looked into Fortov's whereabouts across the timeloop.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (15 hours later)
Typos (noticeably less than usual):
with careless shrug/with a careless shrug
the way marker worked/the way the marker worked
honestly tell me/honestly telling me
all these time/all this time
bit this sort/but this sort
It convincing Daimen/And convincing Daimen
as two of them/as the two of them
u/tokol [+1] The Greater Good (5 days later)
Regardless, he was back and could devote other matters.
devote other -> devote time to other
No, he had to spend months going thought that hellish soul awareness training...
thought -> through
Not a typo, but noticeably awkward phrasing in Daimen's dialog (IMO). Consider revising if it isn't supposed to be in character:
"... I'm not entirely sure, but I think she was actually scared of me a little. ..."
actually scared of me a little -> actually scared of me. | actually a little scared of me. | actually a little frightened of me. | etc.
Edit: Removing repeats with thrawnca.
u/-Fender- [+9] (3 hours later)
In your face, u/thrawnca!
u/TheAtomicOption [+11] (9 hours later)
lol There are clearly dates. I suspect that "won't write romance" mostly just means that any romance which happens won't become a focus of the story, and we won't be forced to read a ton of dialogue where they talk or agonize over how they feel about each other or what the other one thinks of them.
Which I'm super happy about because Twilight sucked. I wouldn't be surprised if there's still some romance in the sense that we see a date or two, and we're just told in a sentence or two about any relationship status updates there are. It'd include romance in the way that PG-13 movies include sex--it just goes to a shot outside the house with just the bedroom light on after a kiss.
u/-Fender- [+9] (10 hours later)
Exactly. The romance is unlikely to go far, because Zorian would probably feel that it'd just be torture to develop feelings for someone and then having that person forget all their time together the next day.
By the end of the Raynie arc, it was pretty much obvious that she'd developed feelings for him, since he'd become so reliable and a source of comfort for her. But it's very unlikely that their relationship will be explored further before the time loop ends, unless Zorian decides to actually meet with her clan.
The romance is in an episodal format, and never becomes a primary focus. And it's perfectly fine that way.
u/thrawnca [+10] Carbon-based biped (15 hours later)
Sorta. She didn't confess love for him, and she'd already told him years ago that he's about her only friend. But yes, it looks like that experience got her thinking about just how far he's advanced.
She thought they were fighting side by side, protecting each other, until it turned out he was so far above her level that he'd simply sent a copy of himself to protect her. That must have been a kick in the guts. As she said, he still cares about her wellbeing, but he's so skilled it's now in a patronizing way.
u/-Fender- [+2] (22 hours later)
Well, the main point of what I said was that that scene was included to give more character development for Taiven. We'll see how next chapter goes.
u/Nickoalas [+7] (10 hours later)
He was right about her punching him though :P
u/-Fender- [+5] (10 hours later)
Ah, good point.
u/thefreegod [+6] (12 hours later)
I just realized the sovereign gate is meant to be used at the end of the month when the planets are aligned. In fact it being used now a month early is causing problems. Could Zorian use the gate again properly after getting out of the loop on the solstice?
u/bludvein [+7] (21 hours later)
It takes more than just the right planar conditions to trigger the gate. It needs an absolutely huge amount of mana that's accumulated over hundreds of years for each run. Even if for some reason he wanted another go he has zero hope of recharging the gate before the alignment passes.
u/JellyFishxD [+1] (3 days later)
Hi, does anyone know approximately what chapter Mother of Learning will finish on? I caught up to date about half a month ago and stopped reading, I want to know when to begin my reread
u/Xtraordinaire [+2] Team Glimglam (4 days later)
I'd say there we're in for 15 more chapters at least. So that's a year away.
u/I-want-pulao [+1] (3 days later)
The author said that each arc is roughly equal in length. The first was 26 chapters, the second was 28 (54). So maybe until 78-80? Doesn't look likely though... We're at 70 and there's so much still to be revealed.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (8 days later)
Despite the author saying each arc would be roughly the same in length, I don't believe that will be the case for the third arc unless some of the recent spoils of the adventure prove to be extremely useful.
If you want to wait until it's finished, I'd check in after a year, though I'd wager a year and a half and maybe even two years may be more accurate.
u/ThisIsABotThatDoStuf [-1] (57 minutes later)
bruhhhhhh