24 KiB
Are there any rational stories where the afterlife is proven to exist?
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Author: u/None *
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URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/6lapcx/are_there_any_rational_stories_where_the/
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Score: 25
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Created: 2017-07-05T00:14:22
Post:
Seeing as the anti-Death sentiment is such a large part of the stories I've seen presented around here, I was wondering how such a philosophy would fare in a setting where life after death was a known and proven fact. Perhaps a rational story set in a horror film/universe, where ghosts are a known hazard and the protagonist plans to weaponize their own afterlife against some foe in a kind of extreme Pyrrhic victory? Or an HPMOR clone/fic where Dumbledore actually is able to prove the existence of the afterlife to Harry?
Is there anything like that kicking around?
Comments:
u/CeruleanTresses [+25] (10 minutes later)
Check out Unsounded. It's a webcomic with an established afterlife that follows consistent rules (though some of its details are still unknown and hotly debated among the setting's religions), and which is exploited for research purposes and in the setting's "technology." The setting also has an equally consistent magic system that functions analogously to computer programming languages, and which characters use in creative and intelligent ways.
As far as Unsounded's relevance to this community goes, it has some pretty cool transhumanist/immortalist themes (coming back to the anti-death sentiment you mentioned). I wouldn't say that the narrative itself takes an anti-death stance; however, there are multiple characters who espouse those ideals, a canonical religion based around a rejection of the cruelties and indignities of mortality (including death and particularly the humiliation of physical decay), and an organization of hardcore scientists seeking to advance humanity, and the story doesn't appear to pass any kind of automatic moral value judgment on these things the way a lot of fiction does. The characters who are part of these organizations and believe in these ideals run the gamut, ethically speaking. And in fact, the idea of "overcoming death" increasingly seems to be critical to the plot and the driving motive of certain major characters, although exactly where the story will take this is still unclear. (There is also attention given to the component of the afterlife that involves immense suffering, a la Unsong.)
Aside from the ways in which its content is of interest to r/rational, the comic is very good. It is well-drawn, the characters and world are detailed and carefully crafted, it is updated on a reliable schedule, and the author puts a lot of thought into the structure and pacing of the story (which shows). I think its excellence is at least partly due to the author's habit of maintaining a large buffer, so that she can map out and tweak entire scenes in advance instead of rushing to post each page as it comes due.
u/Pluvialis [+3] Second Age Sauron (10 hours later)
Reading it now. The girl is annoying, but I get the idea she's supposed to be.
Weird typo though:
u/noggin-scratcher [+6] I am a happy tree (10 hours later)
I guess that's the inevitable logical counterpart to all the times people have written "would of" instead of "would've".
u/CeruleanTresses [+6] (13 hours later)
Yes, I'd agree that the annoyingness is intentional.
Stuff like "afraid've" is just written dialect. Sette says "afraid've" because that's how she pronounces "afraid of."
u/Pluvialis [+1] Second Age Sauron (13 hours later)
The spelling doesn't make sense; "-'ve" means "- have". "Afraid of" shortened should either be "afraid 'f" or just "afraid of" and let the reader infer the pronunciation (there are plenty of cues as to how she speaks, and not every speech pattern is reflected in the spelling).
I think her dialect is altogether too pushed in this cartoon. The author was trying too hard and needed an editor.
u/CeruleanTresses [+4] (13 hours later)
To be honest, I disagree that it "doesn't make sense". In this case, "'ve" is clearly a "v" sound, not an abbreviation for "have." It's not that unusual of a construction. I don't know why anyone would ever read it as "afraid have."
If you find the written dialect excessive and distracting, that's a separate issue and it's perfectly fair, but I don't think being ungrammatical is a problem here.
u/Pluvialis [+1] Second Age Sauron (13 hours later)
Who doesn't pronounce "afraid of" like that, except posh people which she's obviously not? It's totally unnecessary.
I'm tryin' t'think've another time I've seen that sort've abbreviation, but nothing springs t'mind.
That's how I would say that previous sentence out loud, by the way. Distracting to read isn't it?
u/CeruleanTresses [+3] (13 hours later)
No, I don't find it distracting, but if I did it wouldn't be because I was thinking "Sort've? That means 'sort have!' That makes no sense!"
Anyway, I hope you enjoy the story apart from that.
u/Flashbunny [+3] (3 days later)
That reads exactly as if you were trying to emphasise the accent, which is clearly what the author is doing here.
u/Pluvialis [+1] Second Age Sauron (3 days later)
It's absurdly exaggerated - I don't sound how that makes it look like I sound - and unnecessary - you can give hints that inform the reader how to imagine a voice without spelling out every quirk, let alone by using grammatical forms that actually mean something else.
u/Flashbunny [+2] (3 days later)
Sure you don't, but from your own comment you can see the character in the comic presumably does sound how it "looks like they sound". That's the whole point.
u/Nulono [+1] Reverse-Oneboxer: Only takes the transparent box (14 hours later)
I'm not posh, but I pronounce the "o"…
u/None [+1] (14 hours later)
I find that the 'o' is more often pronounced in the context of removing someone's toenails.
u/TheAtomicOption [+2] (2 days later)
"don't be afraid have me"
that girl is thirsty
u/ArgentStonecutter [+1] Emergency Mustelid Hologram (a day later)
I remember this one, I tried reading it once before but everyone is broken.
u/CeruleanTresses [+1] (a day later)
It can be very grim, yeah. Though I've always thought it had an ultimately hopeful feel to it. The world is cruel but there are people still trying their best to make things better.
u/monkyyy0 [+3] (a day later)
Oi you seem to have left out an important detail; its unfinished; high praise and a copyright date form 7 years ago I would have thought my ways are safe.
BUT NOOOO IVE FALLEN INTO WEEKLY UPDATES TRAP AGAIN
u/CeruleanTresses [+1] (a day later)
Haha, I'm sorry! I thought I implied it! Fortunately it's normally thrice weekly, although it's temporarily twice weekly because the author is busy with I forget what.
Do you like it? The author has a Tumblr where she answers non-spoilery fan questions about worldbuilding and stuff, if that helps ease the pain of waiting.
u/TheConstipatedPepsi [+2] (an hour later)
Is the first chapter representative of the whole story? I hate that little girl more than I've hated any character in a long time
u/CeruleanTresses [+3] (an hour later)
A lot of people feel that way, understandably. But no, it gets much darker than that and goes much more deeply into the cool magic system and worldbuilding stuff, and explores many other characters, and Sette undergoes enough character development to not remain completely insufferable.
u/paradcx [+2] (2 hours later)
Indeed, almost made it through 2 chapters before I had to give up.
u/CeruleanTresses [+6] (4 hours later)
If the only thing bothering you is that you don't like Sette, I really recommend that you keep going--at least through chapter 5, which delves into the magic system. She isn't omnipresent, there's a ton of cool stuff in Unsounded that doesn't involve her, and even when she's onscreen the story files the roughest edges off her brattiness pretty quickly. Once she starts seeing Duane as a person and not just a tool--and once you have some insight into her motivations beyond "steal everything in sight"--she becomes much more endearing. You stop noticing the thieves' cant after a little while too.
If the story's not for you for other reasons, then fair enough. But I think it's a real shame when people drop the comic just because early-chapter Sette is annoying.
u/paradcx [+2] (5 hours later)
Hmm, perhaps I'll take another look later then.
u/vallar57 [+1] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (7 days later)
How dark will it become? I'm perfectly fine with Sette (she is one of those people to stay away from IRL, but are very amusing to read about), and the art is gorgeous, but I'm currently suffering form an overdose of grimdark and don't walk into a trap again.
u/CeruleanTresses [+1] (7 days later)
Well...pretty freaking dark. I don't feel like it's over-the-top, and there are reprieves so it's not exhausting, but yeah it gets really dark. It doesn't pull its punches much.
u/vallar57 [+1] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (7 days later)
Damn.
u/CeruleanTresses [+1] (7 days later)
You could always give it a shot and bow out if it's too much for you! I'm actually also not super into really dark stuff, but it hasn't bothered me that much in this comic since it's so well executed. Is there any subject matter in particular you'd consider a dealbreaker?
u/vallar57 [+2] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (7 days later)
Yeah, that is what I'm doing right now.
There isn't any particular dealbraker, it's more of a matter of "mood" and "feel". It's possible to write quite cheery books in a setting as grimdark as Warhammer 40k, and it's possible to write pretty damn depressive and dark stuff in a setting as light as anime version of Pokemon.
u/CeruleanTresses [+1] (7 days later)
Let me know what you think! I love hearing people talk about the comic, I've been a fan for years and I don't know a lot of people who read it. Even "I'm not into it for X reason" is cool to hear about because it's a new perspective.
The good thing is that some of the darkest shit happens very early on. You'll know what I mean when you get there. If you can get through that bit without wanting to die, you'll probably be okay with the rest of it.
u/vallar57 [+2] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (7 days later)
Okay, I finished the first arc (10 chapters). I would say I like it. Sure it's dark, but it doesn't go into the "soul-crushing hopelessness" realm, and is always diluted with jokes that manage to not seem out of place.
And the art. The art just that awesome.
I could go more into details if you would like, but later: too sleepy XD
u/CeruleanTresses [+1] (7 days later)
10 chapters! You're almost caught up!
I agree with you that the author does a good job balancing out the dark shit. I think it's partly the humorous bits, partly the occasional rays of hope, and partly the general sense of unwavering struggle against the world's cruelty. No matter how bad things get, we never stop seeing people trying to make things better. Sometimes in really fucked up ways, but hey.
Got a favorite character? I can never decide.
u/vallar57 [+1] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (8 days later)
Okay, caught up to ongoing.
Fav character is Duane. For the same reason I liked Wonder Woman from the recent movie, actually - he is a paladin, one whose paladinship survived the utter crash of his worldview. Such characters are treasures, gotta love them.
Chapters 11-12 were a huge disappointment though. First, burning the town was as clishe as it was stupid. Second, Rahm's actions were beyond me: he is breaking a divine custom of his religion while working on a project an wishing for divine knowledge. Third, gotta agree with Winalils: for geniuses the Black Tongues are bloody gullible, and lampshading it is not enough of a saving grace.
u/_stoodfarback [+23] (4 hours later)
Not exactly what you're asking for, but somewhat related and very very good.
u/MagicWeasel [+11] Cheela Astronaut (4 hours later)
Hell is the Absence of God is a masterpiece. If you read nothing else, read this.
u/Frommerman [+6] (22 hours later)
Holy fuck.
u/MagicWeasel [+8] Cheela Astronaut (22 hours later)
That was more or less my response on reading it.
I have the short story collection it's in, and the author's notes said that
u/Frommerman [+8] (23 hours later)
Yeah, my first impression was "this is a God who needs to be killed."
u/None [+4] (2 days later)
"I am going to fucking kill God."
And a voice spaketh unto me from the heavens, and said,
#+++COME AT ME ALREADY+++
u/Evan_Th [+15] Sunshine Regiment (2 hours later)
Or an HPMOR clone/fic
It isn't Dumbledore that does it, but look at the chilling Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Zombie, previously discussed here.
u/callmebrotherg [+6] now posting as /u/callmesalticidae (2 hours later)
I would love a story that took that premise and ran with it.
u/ArgentStonecutter [+2] Emergency Mustelid Hologram (14 hours later)
Came here to suggest exactly that story.
u/The_Dar [+14] (2 hours later)
Have you read Unsong?
u/ArgentStonecutter [+14] Emergency Mustelid Hologram (14 hours later)
I would call Unsong alt-rational, or meta-rational. Someone pointed out that its main purpose is to give the author the opportunity to make the worst possible puns with a straight face.
u/Frommerman [+7] (22 hours later)
A good and noble task which it dutifully carries out to the last.
u/None [+9] (an hour later)
[deleted]
u/ArgentStonecutter [+2] Emergency Mustelid Hologram (14 hours later)
Dante's-Inferno-Style heaven and hell exists, and begin invading the world in an attempt to start a biblical apocalypse... And we fight back.
I'd say that Niven and Pournelle's Inferno is a pretty rational approach to this. They kind of spoiled it in the sequel Escape from Hell but you don't need to read that... the first book stands on its own.
u/Iconochasm [+6] (4 hours later)
This isn't super relevant to your request, but you did make me think of it, and it's the sort of anecdote that I think enough people here would appreciate to be worth sharing.
So, one of my favorite TTRPG systems is Legend of the Five Rings, which is a sort of pan-Asian-but-mostly-Japanese fantasy setting where the intricately detailed, socially repressive setting is one of the main selling points. A decade or so ago, a supplement was commissioned for the Shadowlands faction[1] called Bearers of Jade. An adventure module was written for inclusion called Mirror, Mirror, but it was ultimately rejected. The preface to the adventure explains the reason why, and I'd like to quote a chunk here:
Because creating horror in Rokugan is a different dance than trying it in GURPS Horror or Call of Cthulhu. If everyone is in character (which we are assuming in an otherwise functional game) you aren't trying to scare reporters and debutantes. That's easy. In L5R horror, you have to scare six hard-core, heavily armed martial artists, some of whom come from an entire clan of professional demon hunters who do not fear death because they know for a fact they will reincarnate. So we wrote an adventure that did. We sent it in to Alderac Entertainment Group. It was rejected. Why? Well, as D.J. Trindle, the line editor of L5R, put it: "You guys cranked this up to 11..." "I got chills reading it..." "You're not supposed to scare the GM."
Bolded for emphasis.
One of the things I like about L5R is that it makes reasonably rational use of the known-fact afterlife system. In one famous incident during the Battle At Volturnum, a fight over a gate to the afterlife realms, an entire legion commits mass suicide as a form of tactical teleportation, so they can emerge back through the gate as part of a pincer attack. The setting is filled with dozens and dozens of heroic last stands and noble self-sacrifices, all of which makes perfect sense because there is absolutely no ambiguity about the presence of an afterlife, and doing that sort of thing vastly increases your chances of a good-to-awesome one. It also makes the occasional self-sacrifice of honor, where doing the "right" thing gets you a shitty afterlife due to the intense face/standing socio-religious rules, particularly poignant (this was a main element of the Scorpion Clan, my personal favorite).
I would never say the setting/story itself was rational, but this one element was consistently well done by rational fiction standards.
[1] Going into the Shadowlands was once described thusly: Imagine going to hunt xenomorphs. Except the xenos live in the Chernobyl 3 reactor. And the facehuggers are invisible. And the xenos worship Cthulhu. But Cthulhu isn't a distant, uncaring god. He hates you and your family, personally, with all the venom of a thousand years of rejection and imprisonment.
Doing horror in L5R is fun precisely because the stakes are so much higher than a normal horror game.
u/EliezerYudkowsky [+7] Godric Gryffindor (5 hours later)
The old classics would be the Immortality Inc stories by Robert Sheckley.
u/ArgentStonecutter [+2] Emergency Mustelid Hologram (14 hours later)
Thanks. I have to re-read those now... it's been too long.
Also The Haunted Earth by Koontz, which is rational in the way a good legitimate detective story has to be.
u/ArgentStonecutter [+4] Emergency Mustelid Hologram (14 hours later)
u/PeridexisErrant [+4] put aside fear for courage, and death for life (a day later)
I'd actually plug the Young Wizards series for having an unusual perspective on this.
Cosmologically, the story begins when the Lone Power invents death/entropy/endings/badness, and throws a tantrum when nobody is impressed. Literally the entire rest of the history of the multiverse is either the story of the redemption of That One and its works.
So there is an afterlife, and it's much like this one but better (including the afterlife, recursively) - but what you do here matters too, so it's life that gives meaning to death. Pursuit of immortality is only a bad thing if you neglect the kind of life you're trying to extend, and death is a bitter parting but not forever.
If I could pick any universe to live in, it would be this one - (eventual) happy
endingcontinuation guaranteed.
u/None [+2] (3 days later)
Just want to pipe up, to say that Young Wizards is amazing.
u/PeridexisErrant [+2] put aside fear for courage, and death for life (3 days later)
Join us at /r/errantry!
u/silver7017 [+3] (5 hours later)
The novel "The Terminal Experiment" by Robert J. Sawyer. It may not be up to the standards expected of rational fiction, but not for lack of trying. Opens with a researcher accidentally identifying a "soul" of sorts while working on mind uploading. The writer isn't exactly known for his flowing prose, but I personally like it (as well as his other stories).
u/Subrosian_Smithy [+1] Nudist Beach (a day later)
Hey, I remember this story! Nostalgia inbound...
u/MoralRelativity [+3] (a day later)
One of Iain M. Banks' Culture novels, Surface Detail, deals with this theme in an interesting way - Hells literally exist.
u/ArgentStonecutter [+2] Emergency Mustelid Hologram (a day later)
As someone notes below, upload afterlives may not count... but Surface Detail does a good job of it. Also Look to Windward, where we find that the people in charge of the Chelgrian technological afterlife are awful.
Never was able to really picture the Chelgrians, that mid-limb arrangement is really weird.
u/everything-narrative [+2] Coral, Abide with Rubicon! (12 hours later)
Floornight has the entire premise built on the existence of Souls, and the endgame goal is
u/Prezombie [+1] (23 hours later)
Ever since I read His Dark Materials, I've craved a story about an afterlife prison break.
u/CeruleanTresses [+1] (a day later)
There are at least a couple of characters in Unsounded trying their damnedest to do just that.
u/MagicWeasel [+1] Cheela Astronaut (3 hours later)
Friendship is Optimal, kind of, while not at all. It's a Singularity type of afterlife where you are (naturally) a pony.
u/AlcherBlack [+7] (8 hours later)
While I think the fic itself is great, I don't think it's really related to afterlife that much. It's just your regular old uploading.
u/ArgentStonecutter [+1] Emergency Mustelid Hologram (23 hours later)
Iain Banks Surface Detail and Look to Windward are nice cautionary tales here.
u/Geminii27 [+2] (16 hours later)
Possibly Foal Necromancer, to a degree, in that the character eventually runs into and (to an extent) explores planes of existence which appear to function as afterlives or at least purgatories - to the point where he runs into people there who he personally killed, and also assorted dead family members.
Unfortunately, it stopped being updated years ago, and the author has apparently said they're not interested in writing any more. It doesn't help that it could have used a little smoothing out from an editor, too, and that there's a certain degree of Gary-Stu-ness about the main character. It does do some interesting world-building, though.