21 KiB
MOL is great, but I think it lacks emotions and drama.
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Author: u/generalamitt *
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URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/6tfz66/mol_is_great_but_i_think_it_lacks_emotions_and/
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Score: 27
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Created: 2017-08-13T16:16:50
Post:
The characters are too logical, especially Zorian, which makes the dialogue feel very robotic at times. I never get that "oh shit" feeling at pivotal moments because the story is almost written in a businesslike- offhand manner. The invasion at the end of the month should be horrifying, at least for the first couple of restarts. I am not saying Zorian should have PTSD but at least make us feel the horror of being in the midst of a terrorist attack where people are brutally killed left and right.
Things just... happen. There is no impact.
Comments:
u/None [+41] (an hour later)
[deleted]
u/stale2000 [+5] (2 days later)
Yeah, I went into the story knowing that it was a time loop story, so there is some innate comfort in that.
But the innate comfort of knowing that it is a time loop makes the surprise danger moments all the more tense.
The most horrifying of the story for me was when Zorian first learned about the ability of the 3rd time traveler to wipe people from the time stream.
The story led you into a false sense of security, which made it all the more exhilarating when it tore that away from you. I had to put down the book and come back to it a month later because of that.
u/subbboo [+53] (54 minutes later)
I disagree. Invasion was horrifying in the beginning. And dialogue doesn't feel robotic to me.
u/None [+48] (7 hours later)
I agree with your disagreement.
I don't understand why people assume that characters have to have a zero-level intelligence (Hollywood Zombie) to be "relatable" or "emotional".
Many characters in the story actually have a decent level emotional intelligence, which is refreshing, and yet clearly have their own biases thst occasionally push them into illogical or inefficient actions (Damien's assumptions about how he treated his siblings, Zorian's attitude towards Damien, Fortev's... Fortevness, Kirielle acting her age, etc).
MoL can certainly occasionally overpontificate and end up being unnecessarily verbose over concepts or events that could better have been communicated in a single sentence or paragraph, but I'd personally rather the characters over-communicate then under-communicate.
u/Xtraordinaire [+22] Team Glimglam (6 hours later)
First two arcs were fine from emotional standpoint, I think. However, the third arc started by removing the immediate threat and replacing it with a very vague time constraint. I think this has hurt the story largely. Personally I don't have a strong enough suspension of disbelief to consider a chance Zorian will fail to get out of the loop. So there are no stakes right now. Zorian will get out of the loop, we know that, basically. This kills any tension.
Then the last, real repeat of the month starts. Once outside, he faces active Red Robe, and death for him or any of his friends is real. That's where the fun begins.
u/tonytwostep [+16] (6 hours later)
** spoilers below **
I agree with this. In the first arc, Zorian was still getting his bearings, trying to figure out exactly what was going on, who the players were, what the rules were, etc. And at that point, the invasion seemed insurmountable, even after multiple restarts (the lich especially just dominated all their defenses).
With the second arc, Red Robe was still in the loops, and demonstrated some ability to permanently destroy souls (at that point, we didn't know that those "souls" were just copies in a simulation). So there was that constant danger element, of not knowing who RR was or when they would pop up next.
Now we know we're just in a simulation, it's clear that Zorian will eventually get out, and even acquiring the artifacts doesn't seem too difficult for him. There are no real obstacles left until he emerges into the real world. I wouldn't mind if the author started picking up the pace a bit and not spending as much time on each of the remaining loops, so we could get back to a point where there's some dramatic tension.
Honestly, my biggest contention with the plot is Red Robe leaving the simulation so early. The combination of the ever-present potential danger to Zorian and Zack's souls, and the mystery-thriller element of trying to deduce RR's true identity, both added a lot to each loop, and their absence is very noticeable.
u/dbenc [+1] (2 days later)
Wouldn't Zach and Zorian exit the loop "simultaneously" with RR (if they ever do)? Time isn't progressing IRL as far as I understand.
u/tonytwostep [+2] (2 days later)
Well, that's the theory. Relative to Zach/Zorian, RR has already exited - but relative to real time, they'll all exit more or less simultaneously (or, if this works like a super-powered version of the training boxes Zach and Zorian have been using, only milliseconds will have passed IRL).
To me, that's what makes RR's "early" departure so frustrating. RR's not getting any sort of advantage by being out, so there's no rush for Zach & Zorian to get out and catch up (other than to get out before the simulation runs out of power). At the same time, because RR's already exited the simulation (relative to our protagonists), we no longer have that mystery/thriller element in the rest of the loops.
u/addmoreice [+3] (7 days later)
It's not so much RR trying to gain an advantage by going out, but him trying to avoid a danger by not staying in.
He thought that once he left the loop that it would collapse and those inside would be gone, he might have even thought (correctly or not) that he could just start up the loops again and get the rest of 'his' loops without threat. We don't know from his point of view what he is thinking beyond some basics. We know he has gotten decades from his looping and has probably gotten whatever goal he wanted done. anything else is essentially gravy. Balance that with decades of being worry free vs suddenly having an existential threat of an unknown number, some of whom have demonstrated soul magic and mind magic -two of the few things which could harm him in a significant way- with the mind mage being far more accomplished them himself? Imagine if they figure out the soul exclusion spell he was using? they should have it available to themselves as well. that would be death for him.
No, noping the f-out was an obvious and smart move for Red Robe which out weighted any other action by a huge margin.
u/None [+8] (a day later)
Personally I don't have a strong enough suspension of disbelief to consider a chance Zorian will fail to get out of the loop. So there are no stakes right now. Zorian will get out of the loop, we know that, basically. This kills any tension.
Generally speaking, I never go into a story considering the possibility that the protagonist will fail in his quest and die pointlessly. Yet somehow I still enjoy them and find them engaging.
u/Xtraordinaire [+6] Team Glimglam (a day later)
Pointlessly, no. But unlike Zorian, they can die heroically, or lose friends. In the 3rd arc Zorian is invincible in the time loop and so is everyone else. Well, technically the opposite is true, everyone besides the two loopers dies no matter what again and again, so dying a little earlier in a restart doesn't truly mean anything, besides some emotional discomfort.
The only danger Zorian has is failing to get the keys and to get out, but that's not a possibility because of the narrative rules.
u/InfernoVulpix [+2] (a day later)
Out of immersion, that's true. When the hero storms the castle at the final hour the analytical part of your brain can tell you easily that the heroes are going to win somehow.
But that's the beauty of immersion, when you're actually reading the fight between the hero and the villain and the hero's on the verge of being overwhelmed, your immersed brain willingly forgets the narrative conventions which dictate the hero's inevitable success. The more immersive the conflict is, the greater this effect.
In contrast, here, even an immersed mind can tell that Zorian will be able to collect all the Keys. There are obstacles, like the hydra or getting the crown off of the lich's head, but Zorian has enough resources and time on his side that devising a plan to reliably steal the crown feels like just a matter of time.
u/kaukamieli [+1] (a day later)
Sometmes I even enjoy to read a story again.
u/Revlar [+3] (a day later)
The problem with Mother of Learning is that things were revealed that retroactively made past arcs less impactful on a reread. The whole Red Robe paranoia arc loses all tension, because you already know he left the loop and Zorian has nothing to fear.
u/AKAAkira [+3] (9 hours later)
I don't quite agree with the kills-tension part, though I also doubt the author's intending to make a downer ending. For me, it's more like the source of tension moved over from the what to the how - as in a "We're probably already halfway through the last arc and Zorian and Zach only have 1 out of 5 of the key pieces so far how the heck are they gonna get the rest of them in time without the author pulling a Deus Ex Machina oh man I hope it doesn't come to that" sort of thing.
That's a legitimate source of tension too, isn't it? Though maybe not an explicitly directed one.
u/Bobertus [+2] (a day later)
I didn't like it when Red Robe was introduced. MoL was fun to me because Zorian had the freedom to explore the timeloop and take his time to improve. The introduction of an actual threat and increasing tension was counterproductive in that regard. (Also, I really liked the arachanea and Enthusiastic Seeker of Novelty in particular, so it didn't help that they were removed at the same time. I also want to read about Tinami Aope again).
u/megazver [+20] (4 hours later)
You seem to assume these things make a story better by default. That's not the case, with story tension or internal conflict or any other literary technique. Not every story needs to be an emotional wringer. It's a dial and it's a valid writing choice to purposefully make the story fairly psychologically safe. Most people who like the story as it is right now like it precisely because the author doesn't do what you think he should do.
u/EliezerYudkowsky [+41] Godric Gryffindor (3 hours later)
Emotions and drama are rarely done intensely enough to give a reader sympathetic PTSD. I hypothesize that most people have protective shells around their minds that interfere with a kind of emotional clarity required for an author to create characters who feel that strongly. Ch. 89 hurt me more than it hurt you.
u/b31c29e91015 [+17] (4 hours later)
I'm assuming you mean HPMOR chapter 89, not any MoL chapter - http://www.hpmor.com/chapter/89
(I'm sorry)
u/monkyyy0 [+3] (6 hours later)
;__;
u/melmonella [+4] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (a day later)
113 was worse, you evil you. And I had exams at the time ;_;
u/Fresh_C [+21] (4 hours later)
I somewhat agree with you but for slightly different reasons.
I think the story is emotional when it wants to be. When big events happen that upset the status quo they are uniquely felt.
But I think the majority of the story kind of lacks emotion in general. In that many of the chapters are just extended training montages rather than moving the plot forward. So overall you get a lot of interesting details and world building, and then eventually it's topped off with emotional peaks.
But for me personally the training bits kind of got a bit old after a while, so I took a long break from the story. It's the emotional bits that tend to really hook me into stories. This story definitely has those emotional bits, but it doesn't really dole them out in a consistent manner.
u/Bobertus [+8] (an hour later)
I've wanted some romance (and maybe more drama) in the story from time to time. But I respect the authors choices. I never thought that the dialogue was robotic. I think it's better to err on the side of not enough angst and drama than too much.
u/None [+7] (a day later)
To be fair, the context of the story makes it very difficult for actual romance. Once Zorian knew he was in a time loop, any attempt to form long-term emotional connections with people became almost inherently unethical, since he knew the person he was romancing would effectively 'die' at the end of each loop.
u/Bobertus [+3] (a day later)
That's true. Some interesting things MoL could still do: Zorian just hanging out with his class mates without trying to seriously date someone. Zorian having or developing a crush on someone wihtout trying to actually date the person. Zorian having to deal with people that have crushes on him or flirt with him. MoL does those things to various degrees and it would probably get pretty old quickly if done too much.
I think it's fair at this point to say that Zorian isn't massively popular and doesn't develop romantic (or sexual) interests easily.
u/PlaneOfInfiniteCats [+7] (15 hours later)
The first thing that gets me the most about Zorian's (lack of) emotions is his apparent asexuality. He is a teenager. If he had a sex drive of an average teenager, he would lewd basically every female in the loop once he was out of an immediate mortal danger. Yet, he does not. He spends literal years in the time loop and doesn't even think of sex once. For a person with a teenager body full of hormones, this is decidedly unusual.
I like his logical approach otherwise, but his asexuality really strains mys suspension of disbelief.
Also, for such a logical individual, Zorian is surprisingly squeamish. He adamantly refuses violating copyright even when the fate of the world literally depends on him succeeding in his endeavors.
Other than these two things, I don't mind Zorian's level of emotions.
u/memzak [+10] Imperial Commonwealth of Endeavour (a day later)
With regards to his apparent asexuality;
I suspect that, much like before the loop itself, he simply prioritizes other things before pursuing females. After the loop started the moral dubiousness of doing so, the ever increasing difference in mental age and the fact that for much of the loop he was hanging on by the skin of his teeth would be very effective at causing him to prioritize other things in favor of chasing women even more.
I find that it is actually apparent that, like every teenager, he does have these feelings present somewhere inside of him but simply chooses to suppress them most of the time. Heck, his crush for Taiven took almost a decade of time and a time loop for him to do anything more than halfheartedly suggest a date.
u/None [+10] (a day later)
Some people have low sex drives. This story would be very different from the one the author presumably wanted to write if Zorian had a high sex drive, therefore he was written with a low sex drive.
I admit it would have been nice if the topic were addressed a bit more, though. Zorian thinking about how sex is simply not a priority right now, or something.
u/HeckDang [+6] (2 days later)
I think it's fine since the topic is lampshaded via the fact that apparently Zach has had sex with almost every woman in town and his incredulousness that Zorian hadn't done anything similar. There's nothing inherently wrong about unusual things happening in stories, because unusual things do happen. It's significantly worse when unusual things happen in stories and noone in the story treats it accordingly, like the unusual thing it is. A good lampshade goes a long way to preserving suspension of disbelief.
u/Elec0 [+9] (18 hours later)
I mean, you can be a teenager and still be ace. There's nothing really abnormal about that.
u/swaskowi [+7] (22 hours later)
I'm pretty sure they're sub 1% of the population(on earth) so that falls under my criteria for "abnormal".
u/Revlar [+6] (2 days later)
I'm honestly thankful this story didn't degenerate into Time Braid's brand of ridiculous inanity. Trying to reread Time Braid is like pulling teeth
u/eroticas [+2] (15 days later)
I don't see how being in a time loop makes you have sex any more often than not being in a time loop. You'd have less sex, in fact, since you have to re-seduce people every restart...
u/PlaneOfInfiniteCats [+1] (15 days later)
Consider that in a time loop there is no reason to be worried about STDs, pregnancies, angry parents, jealous exes, and law, and you will see how.
u/eroticas [+2] (15 days later)
I'm not entirely sure Zorian's parents would know or care anyway, and most of the other problems can be solved with condoms and honesty. Which is to say, you have to let people know you're just going to have sex with them and nothing else. Which you should be doing anyway, a time loop is not a place where you can ethically make promises about a future together, really, and Zorian is a very moral kid.
law
Zorian is especially not going to be assaulting anyone just because they're in a time loop :/ unless you mean something else
u/AKAAkira [+5] (9 hours later)
I partially agree with the emotions part but disagree on the drama.
I personally don't think it's the characters being too logical that makes it come short on emotion, just the author not being too strong on writing "live" dialogue most of the time, if I can put it that way. But he can still pull it off at times, for example the thing with Taiven at the end of ch 43 - can you really think that that part doesn't successfully impart each characters' rather strong emotions to the reader?
As for drama, like I said, I disagree. Easy example: end of act one. I feel like one of this story's strongest points is how it engineers situations that are good enough to boggle the mind just by thinking about it, and in those kind of cases I find it really hard for the affect of the dialogue to have much say in how enthralled I am (barring, of course, just stupid amounts of shoddy writing).
I'm almost certainly stepping onto nosy territory here, but from my perspective it looks like you're the type of reader who's more into the quality of the prose in contrast to, I guess, the quality of immersibility. Or at the very least, think the former is a necessity for the latter. Any ring of truth to that?
u/b31c29e91015 [+5] (4 hours later)
I'm thinking that the feeling of a story not being "emotional" enough could be a side-effect of it being published as online serial fiction. Let's face it - MoL would be an order of magnitude "better" than it is now after it goes through hands of a competent professional editor. For that to happen, however, it needs to be finished. What we're reading is essentially author's first draft - perhaps not in terms of story line, but in terms of prose.
Nonetheless, last two chapters contained a lot of characterisation with respect to Zorian and Damien, and I feel they did communicate their respective feelings very well.
u/monkyyy0 [+11] (47 minutes later)
I am not saying Zorian should have PTSD
He probably should
u/vakusdrake [+13] (4 hours later)
You do know not every traumatic experience leads to PTSD right?
Hell even severity of trauma isn't a perfect predictor as PTSD has genetic factors like most(all?) mental disorders.
u/thrawnca [+13] Carbon-based biped (5 hours later)
I don't know much about the subject, but I'd imagine that having everyone alive and well around him immediately afterward might lessen the impact?
u/None [+17] (7 hours later)
No. PTSD is caused by neurological changes in the brain, and Zorian's soul (and memories) are cast backwards every month.
He may have memories of unpleasant moments, but his brain doesn't have the neurological stress connections.
This is leaving aside the absurdity of memories without neural connections, but if we assume memories are stored in the soul and processed by the brain, then there are no defects in the brain caused by stress to trigger PTSD events.
Benefits of a time loop that restores your body to a known-good configuration. Can't get buff with exercise, but can't suffer traumatic brain damage, either.
u/Vakuza [+1] (8 hours later)
While it could do with a little more coverage in some cases, there is still emotion from characters, though Zach and Zorian have been desensitised with the time loop. There has definitely been reactions to things, like Zach ranting at the guardian.
u/SnowGN [+1] (2 days later)
I agree with the OP, honestly. The level of emotional detachment in this arc makes me just browse through the chapters to find out what happened.
I really hope Zorian exits the time loop soon.