14 KiB
[FF] [RST] The Last Jedi, Ever (Star Wars oneshot)
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Author: u/EthanCC *
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URL: https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/the-last-jedi-ever-star-wars-rational-one-shot.589311/
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Score: 49
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Created: 2017-11-21T01:51:43
Post:
Comments:
u/Noumero [+26] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (5 hours later)
Interesting. Star Wars' Force is has potential for so many horror-inducing explanations, isn't it? Relevant.
Without the Force, their worst instincts would not guide their destiny. People would not stay in the same ruts of thought they always have, too scared to take the leap to save themselves. Simply remove that pressure, and the galaxy is saved from itself.
... and then is promptly devoured by CC-R2O2 the random droid, who gets bootstrapped into godhood in the first several seconds of the Force's nonexistence. Wait, no. Maybe it's actually going to be several god-droids scattered across the galaxy, who'll start an eternal war between ourselves (alright, not eternal, a few megayears). That would be fun.
The bottom line is, every improvement is a change, but not every change is an improvement; when it comes to humans, the overwhelming majority of changes aren't improvements. The Force locked the galaxy in a local maximum of utility, so to say, and its removal would've potentially allowed the sentients' civilizations to move in the direction of a global maximum in the long-term, but was Snokes confident/did he try to ensure that they wouldn't fall down into a global minimum instead? Forget the problem of ASIs' utility functions; if not for the Force, who is going to stop idiots from ramming their spacecrafts into planets at relativistic speeds in acts of war? Who is going to stop corporations from taking over the universe and replacing nearhumanbaselines with obedient droids? Who is going to be preventing Moloch's absolute victory? Who would stop omnicides caused by military research, who would contain grey goo outbreaks? Lord Snokes, you're lost in the sea of grand ambitions, in delusions of grandeur; you're a master of the Dark Side, but you fail to look into humanity's darkness^(1). The Force is an agent of good. It doesn't stop us from winning, it prevents us from killing ourselves! It is responsible for the suffering and deaths of trillions, yes, but we're still alive solely because of it!
^(Okay, okay, I'll stop it.)
... Yes, definitely a very interesting idea.
Regarding the critique, u/EthanCC^(2), I feel that Rey was way too fast in starting to listen to Snokes, who, as she herself noted, is a capable liar and manipulator who is probably also evil and/or insane. She doesn't at all antagonize him even when he starts asking her random questions, doesn't act suspicious when he presents her with this suspiciously convenient theory. That's the story's main flaw, in my opinion.
Edit: Someone in the thread mentioned that one "Darth Traya" had similar views. I went to the wiki to check, and, well, turns out she is basically a ratific protagonist already.
^(2. u/EthanCC, you are the author, right? If no, substitute "EthanCC" for whatever Sterr's reddit handle is, if there is one.)
u/neondragonfire [+9] (6 hours later)
I feel that Rey was way too fast in starting to listen to Snokes, who, as she herself noted, is a capable liar and manipulator who is probably also evil and/or insane. She doesn't at all antagonize him even when he starts asking her random questions, doesn't act suspicious when he presents her with this suspiciously convenient theory. That's the story's main flaw, in my opinion.
In defense of Rey in this story, a problem doesn't become less of a problem just because you dislike the source of information. Snoke does point of valid concerns with the state of the galaxy, and it is sensible to look into those. That does not necessarily mean agreeing with his conclusion. It is quite possible that after looking into matters more closely Rey does decide that the Force is good and should be left as it is.
Because, yes, it is a suspicious theory, but I don't see Rey accepting it. I see Rey accepting that there are things that need to be explained by a theory, and that what Snoke presented is currently the best theory she has. Which would still mean going off to poke holes in the theory and trying to find a better theory. Because science.
Also, Snoke is totally still alive. "Oh, leave me to die without watching, surely I am beyond help at this point! Woe is me!" Yeeeeaaahhh... no.
u/Noumero [+10] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (7 hours later)
I agree, but that's not exactly what I meant. I meant that in the confines of this story, Rey doesn't feel as a character with an independent agency as much as an obedient listener for
SnokesSnoke^(1) to monologue at. She should be actively suspicious of Snoke and his theory, it should be reflected in her thoughts, she should try to pick holes in his theory by shooting back pointed questions at him, etc. There should be more doubt in her thoughts, and less genuine reaction at Snoke's surface-level statements.I feel that Rey is too quick to stop seeing the unrepentant mass murderer^2 as an enemy who is potentially trying to manipulate her, and start seeing him as a conversation partner.
tl;dr: Narrative/characterization problem, not plot problem.
^(1. Wait, is the Sith Lord's name actually "Snoke"? Oops.)
^(2. He is a mass murderer, right? I'm not actually sure, I didn't see The Force Awakens.)
u/CouteauBleu [+6] We are the Empire. (12 hours later)
Wait, is the Sith Lord's name actually "Snoke"? Oops.
Listen, The Force Awaken had a lot of pressure on its shoulders, okay?
u/Noumero [+3] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (19 hours later)
Oh, no, I wasn't poking fun at his name, I was talking about the fact that in this story, he is constantly referred to as "Snokes", which caused me to initially misname him as well.
The name is indeed pretty silly, though. Unless there's another joke I'm not getting?
u/None [+2] (4 days later)
I mean, arguably, when you're talking to a master of evil who is a known liar and seducer of hearts, the rational thing is to cut off his head before he speaks, because when talking to a charismatic conman, his words are just as dangerous a weapon as his Force lightning.
A way to fix this would be to have Rey be chasing him down, and he can call out his speech while she's following him, so she's forced to listen. Then the speech can end with her cornering him, and having already heard so much, she lets him finish.
u/Noumero [+1] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (4 days later)
I like your idea.
Yes, invoking epistemic learned helplessness is the correct choice... in some situations. Namely, in situations where you can't test the other's argument against reality at all, or where the enemy's relative intelligence is much higher than yours. Neither is the case with Snoke: he isn't literally superintelligent, and he is unlikely to mindhack a paranoid Rey into believing whatever he says before she cross-checks it with other Jedi/specialists. Additionally, she did beat him, so he probably can't utter any killer-sentences at her, lest he would have done it already (unless that's what he wants her to think, but if we're assuming that, we may as well assume he is superintelligent and unbeatable).
Of course, the story's Rey wasn't being properly paranoid, judging by her thoughts, which is what I complained about.
u/None [+2] (4 days later)
so he probably can't utter any killer-sentences at her, lest he would have done it already
That's a good point, but then it leads to the question why Snoke didn't mention the holotron before their fight.
Still, I think we agree that Rey trusted the words of Snoke "Dark McDarkson" to easily. I could say maybe she's intentionally being written as over-confident, but then she's not really a rationalist protag then. Also
before she cross-checks it with other Jedi/specialists
This doesn't necessarily stop your argument, but I think she's literally supposed to be the last Jedi alive here. The author might be able to tell me whether I'm wrong here? Still, I'm sure other force-sensitives or the writings of past Force users could be used to cross-check.
Never heard of the term "epistemic learned helplessness" before (I'm more a casual lurker of the rationalist community than a part of the community myself, per se). Pretty cool article.
u/abcd_z [+4] (a day later)
The bottom line is, every improvement is a change, but not every change is an improvement; when it comes to humans, the overwhelming majority of changes aren't improvements. The Force locked the galaxy in a local maximum of utility, so to say, and its removal would've potentially allowed the sentients' civilizations to move in the direction of a global maximum in the long-term
So you're saying that sentient life under the Force is pareto optimal?
u/EthanCC [+3] (19 hours later)
Yeah I'm the author. Thanks for the feedback!
u/MultipartiteMind [+17] (8 hours later)
Minor plural/singular correction: 'massacred the colonist' -> 'massacred the colonists'
Incidentally, if I were in that position, I would be incredibly suspicious of a request to die alone. Even if circumstances gave me no choice--though actually, especially if potentially-manipulatable circumstances gave me no choice--and even if I saw a body afterwards, the concept sets off loud warning bells. Particularly, with that level of galaxy-wide consideration--going against the Force's mind-suppression itself--to actually want that 'dignity' over the sincerity otherwise shown prompts... doubt.
Or, to rephrase it semi-humourously:
"I've just killed lots of people! This was a demonstration, even though various people have done various things just like it many times before! However, because you've come here, I have the opportunity to pass my life's work on to you! Take this holocron. It will train you, prepare you according to my plans and predictions, turning you into a willing tool to carry out the actions I want to see in the galaxy. Now, I will soon die. Please go somewhere else and leave me alone, while I... uh... don't fake my own death with another secret Force or technological technique, watching from one of my many secret lairs as a nefarious puppetmaster. No, honest, I'm really going to die. Well, no, not while you're watching I can't! Look the other way, shoo!"
u/EthanCC [+1] (19 hours later)
This is why I like this subreddit.
u/MultipartiteMind [+3] (2 days later)
(*possibly-narcissistic details-desiring curiosity*)
u/EthanCC [+4] (5 days later)
On spacebattles people were just complaining about Jedi-bashing. On here people said "wow Rey drank the kool-aid pretty fast". I like how people on this subreddit analyze everything on here so deeply, it makes the posts for everything fun to read.
u/MultipartiteMind [+2] (6 days later)
*happiness*
u/PM_ME_OS_DESIGN [+5] (a day later)
Thought: Maybe the force is conservative because all the jedis who "became one with the living Force" caused the old immortality problem - old people get set in their ways, and society progresses easier when the old people who are set in the wrong ways finally die and stop holding everyone else back.
u/MultipartiteMind [+5] (2 days later)
Hm. Now I have a mental image of the wills/desires/ambitions/goals of the previous dead, even if not able to 'manifest' themselves (maybe even those who can can only do that for a short time after death?), as left behind driving events, like 'Fate' in Erfworld; here, maybe the huge numbers of Light-Side Jedi who cared so much about the entire galaxy go into keeping most things happy (and without much future shock...), whereas all the ambitions-for-the-Sith feelings make the last Sith at any given time effectively unkillable.
The 'conservation of ninjutsu' concept comes to mind as a competing hypothesis (for how one Sith could so-consistently survive), but probably doesn't hold up to observed trends (in battle prowess). One Sith of two isn't particularly stronger than any given Jedi, but killing the last Sith--or the last Jedi, for that matter--is something which never happened until... hmm. I don't actually know why a Master and Apprentice achieving a double-knockout never happened before. I don't know much about the extended canon, was there a canonical third/fourth Sith to survive after the movies' all died?
(That would make that rule about only-two make much more sense. That said, tricks can still overcome personal power, though trickery ability can still be viewed as a form of power, though then you get rock-paper-scissors cycling...)
It's fun to imagine people stumbling across old Sith holocrons (or similar) being affected by death Sith people's ambitions that their life's work (recorded in such holocrons) be used gloriously by future Sith.