56 KiB
[RT][HF]Mother of Learning Chapter 77: Testing
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Author: u/Fredlage *
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URL: https://www.fictionpress.com/s/2961893/77/Mother-of-Learning
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Score: 195
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Created: 2017-11-22T23:19:44
Post:
Comments:
u/Vingle [+86] (an hour later)
He started casting divination after divination spell at the book, trying to divine the section of the book that Silverlake wanted him to read.
Even in fantasy ctrl + F reigns supreme.
u/thrawnca [+16] Carbon-based biped (8 hours later)
Chuck Norris can grep dead trees.
u/None [+50] (an hour later)
[deleted]
u/thrawnca [+16] Carbon-based biped (4 hours later)
Inside the World Dragon doesn't necessarily have to be any kind of time travel simulation. It might have a normal time rate, just inside a pocket dimension.
u/Dennysaurus539 [+8] (4 hours later)
That could be what Red Robe was trying to do? Actual time travel?
u/None [+8] (7 hours later)
[deleted]
u/Dennysaurus539 [+4] (9 hours later)
Fair. Though, an alternate dimension where "my side wins" is a fairly compelling reason for a villain to act, I'd think. Also conventional, but sometimes conventional is nice :D
u/Areign [+3] (19 hours later)
I can no longer imagine any world where a bore hole doesn't release something evil.
u/None [+1] (3 days later)
I missed the baseline world not being the original world, when did we get that info?
u/cathemeralman [+47] (7 hours later)
Soap Bubbles
I'm beginning to think that the "primordial prisons" aren't really pocket dimensions containing primordials, but rather the primordials themselves. The primordials that previously roamed the world were just physical projections of pocket dimensions--say, a soap bubble within a soap bubble. Banishing the primordials was the equivalent of pushing the interior soap bubble to the exterior--which is possible because the bubbles share a common film (i.e., the primordials are the spawn of the world dragon). This is what made the primordials impossible to defeat. Popping a sub-bubble risks popping the larger one; destroying a primordial could compromise the world dragon. Very interesting.
Sovereign Gate Theory
I would like to conjecture a little on the nature of the Sovereign Gate--namely, why it was inactive for all those years. I don't think that the SG is a single primordial, but rather a tool that taps into them. If the SG is near a primordial during the planetary alignment, it taps into that primordial to simulate the world for the controller. The SG functioned normally when it was located in the Xlotic--the former seat of the Ikosian empire--because it was kept near the Golden-Feathered Worm. It's been inactive for the past few cycles because the Ikosians left the Xlotic, and the imperial family / Novedas were unaware that this would affect the SG's function. Luckily, before the current cycle, Zach's guardian donated the SG to the time magic research facility--which just so happens to be located next to Panaxeth's prison, triggering the time loop. To explain it in metaphor: rather than a full computer running the simulation, the SG is more like an OS for the simulation that runs from a USB drive. It was pulled out of one computer (the Xlotic primordial) when the Ikosians migrated. Zach's guardian accidentally plugged it into a new one (Panaxeth).
u/serge_cell [+18] (8 hours later)
If this is correct Red Robe could be one of the research staff.
u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+43] (56 minutes later)
Arcane Magical Knowledge collected over the years by elite mages:
Shall we beat up these mages and make them tell us their secrets? Mind magic it out of their minds? Oh no, let's just trade for it. They clearly worked hard to get this knowledge, let's respect that!
Expensive National Airship built by elite mages + construction crew:
STEAL IT STEAL IT STEAL IT!
u/valeskas [+23] (an hour later)
Airship would reset to exactly the same state, secrets would remain stolen, unless Zorian edits his memory.
u/None [+61] (2 hours later)
I doubt this is it. I think Zorian would have no problem with stealing knowledge if it were contained in a private book someone owned. I think it's more that he doesn't want to attack Innocents and sift through their minds. As he feels like doing that would be crossing a boundary. If I remember correctly it's discussed in/following the chapter that Xvim originally proposes the idea.
u/Xtraordinaire [+38] Team Glimglam (11 hours later)
Zorian's prime concern is that mind magic abuse is too enticing so he can't afford to get casual about it. The same goes for his efforts to stay alive, treating death as something of a nuisance is a BAD habit to have in the real world.
u/I_Hump_Rainbowz [+10] (3 hours later)
I would agree with Zorian that this would be crossing a boundary too. I do not know if I agree that this sentiment is worth stopping at that boundary for though.
Its similar to the torture vs execution discussion.
u/cthulhubert [+4] (4 days later)
I think Zorian would have no problem with stealing knowledge if it were contained in a private book someone owned.
This is literally a thing Zorian is doing, he and Zach are practicing for the break in to the royal treasury by breaking into various noble houses, and he's taken plenty of secrets that way. They have this exact conversation then, basically.
u/TsortsAleksatr [+2] (9 hours later)
I think they said, in a chapter, that trade would be beneficial since it would be easier for the other person to give and teach him their secrets voluntarily instead of forcing the secret out of their minds. Besides all tradeable items also reset.
Reminds me of a scene where a super-powerful villain buys his groceries with real money since it would be easier and less time-consuming than stealing anything he wanted and having to deal with the pathetic attempts of the police to stop him.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (4 hours later)
Souls are a thing in MoLverse. And it's not clear what happens to them at the loop end. It's possible that there are thousands of copies of each soul in whatever afterlife they go to, each containing a record of Zorian's deeds.
So treating people differently to things makes sense.
u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+2] (5 hours later)
If Zorian steals the airship, there will be souls containing records of Zorian stealing the airship. The souls of the mages and the construction crew will record their years of hard work finally culminating in an airship so grandiose that it is worthy of being called a national vanity project, only for the airship to be stolen away before they can even test drive it D:
u/thrawnca [+6] Carbon-based biped (5 hours later)
OK, but if he doesn't actually hurt anyone, and everything gets reset, I expect Zorian to be OK with that.
u/crivtox [+1] Closed Time Loop Enthusiast (a day later)
The gods created the time loop and they don't seem to consider the people in the time loop as important , so I wouldn't have a lot of hope for that. Also we don't know if the afterlife still works given that the gods are no longer there.
u/None [+1] (15 days later)
One is hurting people with souls and the other is just stealing an object. There's no torture going on here.
u/space_fountain [+33] (37 minutes later)
Time to talk about my pet theory. I think red robes may have help optimize the assault on the primordial prisons because he needed them to succeed in breaking the primordial out so he could escape the loop.
It seems that red robes put a lot of resources for a ton of loops into making the invasion go down perfectly. Maybe he just really wanted to help them out or thought it was funny or something, but especially with what we learn this chapter and the reaction when they mentioned breaking one out. I think it's much more likely that he needed to.
u/sicutumbo [+17] (47 minutes later)
The beneficial thing about that, if Z&Z can confirm it, is that RR will be immediately outside the prison door. The whole of the time loop only takes a short amount of time in the real world. Seconds, likely. So RR wouldn't have time to go anywhere, and he won't be expecting Z&Z. So when they exit the time loop, presuming Zorian is combat ready upon leaving, they can teleport to the Hole and take out RR. Or Zach could do it alone, because he's probably the best combat mage alive, and RR can't compensate.
u/Dismalward [+6] (2 hours later)
We dont know if red robe might be holding back. He mightve not outright killed zach because he is the center of the loop and he knows zach more than most. In the end, i wouldnt put much faith in zach seeing as how the red robe knows more about his capabilities than most.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+9] Father of Learning (5 hours later)
Zorian at less than two years in escaped from him, he's not that strong
u/Dismalward [+5] (5 hours later)
Strength isn't everything and he's proved to be cleverer than Zach as well as being able to get the lich fight on his side not to mention we still haven't seen his full potential yet.
Zach is an unreliable narrator seeing as how he was obviously under some sort of red robe mind magic that you cannot trust him until he goes under examination by Zorian.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+5] Father of Learning (5 hours later)
Did..... did you miss the part where I said a third year was able to escape?
u/Dismalward [+17] (5 hours later)
Someone being able to run away from you isn't a testament of how weak you are, especially if they kill themselves in order to do it
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+13] Father of Learning (6 hours later)
It is if you're ambushing them to pry them for info and you're so incompetent they could just run away
u/ENTERTAIN_ME_DAMNIT [+2] (5 days later)
To be fair, RR was specifically trying not to kill Zorian, since he needed to interrogate him. As a necromancer, that's probably one of the most difficult situations to show your abilities in.
Also, the only real weakness we saw is that his mental defenses are shoddy. Admittedly, that would be enough for Zorian to blast him - but it doesn't mean he's not a powerful mage.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+1] Father of Learning (5 days later)
Xvim would disagree
u/None [+3] (2 hours later)
[deleted]
u/sicutumbo [+9] (3 hours later)
If RR escaped through the primordial prison door, then he essentially just walked out. The people in the loop aren't simulations, they're all real, just destroyed and recreated every month. The gate is built to keep things separate, and the only way it has to get people out is to shuffle souls. But if you can make an actual doorway through to the real world, then walking out means that you appear on the other side of that door. There are then two copies of you as well.
u/None [+5] (3 hours later)
[deleted]
u/thrawnca [+7] Carbon-based biped (4 hours later)
Wait, there wasn't a loop cut short when RR left. And that would make perfect sense if his marker never triggered because he physically walked out instead of using the Gate.
u/melmonella [+2] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (a day later)
If he isn't a primary controller, it also might not have triggered.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
But they asked the Guardian about that, and it answered that of course the Controller who exited had a marker, or how could he have left? I suspect that maybe he didn't have a (Controller) marker, but left some other way.
u/melmonella [+3] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (2 days later)
It seems to me that tricking a clearly not terribly savvy Guardian program into thinking your marker is the controller one before the controller has left would be easier than breaking out of the Gate, like through a will-kill-you-in-150-million-ways-primordial prison, by boring through the dimensional border, or some other way, considering that Gate is supposed to keep the world with all it's mages and their crazy experiments locked up for a month without them noticing. Only reason Silverlake, who is a professional in the field, noticed was by going to a very specific location and casting very specific spells, implying that simulation is pretty damn sturdy.
u/Xtraordinaire [+2] Team Glimglam (9 hours later)
Doesn't make sense to me considering what he had done as part of said optimization. I think it's more likely he is invested in the original plan (so he is an Ibasan or a cultist), and therefore naturally wants it to succeed.
u/None [+28] (47 minutes later)
[deleted]
u/HeroOfOldIron [+13] (17 hours later)
Score one for me! I didn't expect Primordials to essentially be living dimensions/planes, but I still count the prediction as correct!
u/twiddlebit [+21] (an hour later)
Theory: QI, being as old as he is, is aware of the Sovereign Gate and upon approaching the period when the gate can be opened sets up the groundwork for an invasion. Upon discovering that he is in the loop (through similar techniques to Silverlake) he starts the invasion in order to use the primordial as a bridge and get to the real universe. Assuming this is true, it's plausible that, what with RR helping the invasion and ZZ being absent in various restarts, that QI has succeeded in this many times and that on the other side of the prison there is an army of QI/RR clones waiting.
Bonus theory: the primordial they are inside is the one imprisoned beneath the city. The prison door looks the same but from another perspective, perhaps this is because they're inside the prison looking at the other side of the door. Silverlake remarks that there are no guards, because the Sovereign Gate can't create them, or because the guards are on the other side of the door?
u/thrawnca [+14] Carbon-based biped (4 hours later)
I see several problems:
- If QI is setting up an invasion regardless, why assume that he's aware that the loop has actually begun? What differences would we observe? Actually, I would argue that his observed behavior suggests he doesn't know about the loop, or he would have dealt with Zach differently (eg capturing and studying instead of simply assaulting his soul).
- If they were inside the primordial's prison, it would kill them all. And Zorian has seen the primordial breaking out of its prison into the loop world.
u/twiddlebit [+9] (9 hours later)
I was thinking that he would be setting up an invasion in anticipation of the gate being used because he had prior knowledge of the gate; only going through with the plan after confirming being in the loop.
After sleeping on it I have to admit this doesn't seem very likely, although i do think it's awfully convenient that the invasion coincides with the loop. Either the loop was started because of the invasion or the invasion is started because they are in the loop, which is plausible if QI can detect whether they are in a loop or not and if he can either mobilise the invasion within a month or if he was already preparing the invasion and just needs to say the word go.
Wild theory #3: QI is aware of the sovereign gate and assumes the loop will start a month later as it was supposed to. To this end he endeavours to release a primordial in order to end the loop on day one, sabotaging the loop and preventing people from gaining ridiculous amounts of power. If i remember correctly QI is the oldest named entity im the story barring gods and primordials, if anyone would have prior knowledge of the gate surely it'd be him
u/Frommerman [+10] (17 hours later)
Wild theory #4: the Gate is an anti-Primordial defence mechanism. We already know it can do insane time acceleration, so it isn't a stretch at all to think that it can keep a separate simulation of the world without a Controller in it. If a Primordial is ever released in that world, the Gate waits until a month before it would happen in the real world and then activates, pulling in a member of the Noveda house so they can gain the foreknowledge and expertise necessary to stop the prison break.
u/Crazy_Demon [+4] (14 hours later)
It's not that much of a coincidence, the releasing of the primordial needs to be done during the planar alignment (just like the start of the soverign gate). Don't forget the whole reason the invasion is occurring now and at cyoria is to unleash a primordial on their enemies.
We also don't know how long is been since the soverign gate was last used. For all we know it could be tens of thousands of years ago, long before the gods fell silent. Qual may have heard of the myth but just because he's a 1000 years old doesn't mean he knows what's true and what's false and how everything works
u/valeskas [+7] (15 hours later)
We also don't know how long is been since the soverign gate was last used.
2000 years ago: First Emperor used the gate
1600 years ago: Dynasty change (gate may or may not be used, last possible use of the gate, since it was dormant "past few Cycles", meaning no gate at least 400, 800, and 1200 years ago)
about 600 years ago: Gods go silent
about 500 years ago: Cataclysm (Xlotic desert forms)
u/twiddlebit [+2] (15 hours later)
Ah that's true, there's so many details I can't remember what's fact or assumption, perhaps it's time to reread from the beginning
u/None [+7] (an hour later)
there is an army of QI/RR clones waiting
I wonder how not having a phylactery would effect QIs combat ability. Obviously he'd be easier to destroy but I wonder if the anchor could have some effect on his ability to perform magic as an undead. I suppose he could be carrying one when he exits the loop.
u/silver7017 [+2] (9 hours later)
If that is the case, then something has gone wrong with QI's plan. somehow the gate got activated a month early, and thus burns power much more quickly than intended. this was mentioned a few times.
u/aeschenkarnos [+17] (2 hours later)
I like the shoutout to Unaussprechlichen Kulten.
u/vallar57 [+4] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (4 hours later)
Yup. Primordials themselves are big shoutouts to the Great Old Ones.
u/thrawnca [+16] Carbon-based biped (34 minutes later)
I knew there was something weird about the level of power being used by the loop!
Typos:
a lot less innocuous title/a much less innocuous title
the book like this one/a book like this one
was very dimensionally complex being/was a very dimensionally complex being
copy the entire world create/copy the entire world and create
it's very own/its very own
always seen to him/always seemed to him
the focus on my studies/the focus of my studies
I reckon I know quite well/I reckon I know it quite well
around which the city of Cyoria was built around/around which the city of Cyoria was built
seen through different lens/seen through a different lens
where their allegiances lied/where their allegiances lay
throwing around ridiculous amounts of cash around/throwing around ridiculous amounts of cash
and came out empty-handed/and come out empty-handed
leaned back into chair/leaned back into his chair
haven't already found it and took it/haven't already found it and taken it
u/eroticas [+6] (3 hours later)
Typos continued
blood beings?" Zach asked
should be Zorian asked
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+33] Father of Learning (21 minutes later)
My theory that Zorian makes a giant floating castle to explore the world with at the end of the story has been confirmed! Airships for the win!
Also: the primordial thing sounds scary but honestly it doesn't really affect anything except they might be able to escape through the changing primordial's prison. The SG has been used before and been in use for centuries at a time, there's no reason to worry if they don't actively try to talk to it..... oh fuck that's how they're going to get out, isn't it?
u/Gigapode [+18] (41 minutes later)
Its not actually confirmed that they are living inside a primordial's bodyverse.
Unless its the same primordial as the one trapped under the city, I can't think of a reason for their prisons be linked. So I think if they are trapped in a primodial its probably that one.
As an aside: it will be interesting to see what contigency Silverlake uses to keep her conciousness at the end of the moth.
u/Quetzhal [+30] (an hour later)
I think it's just the opposite - they could be trapped in any primordial but the one beneath Cyoria. Having an exit to the prison inside himself wouldn't make any physical sense - though I suppose it would explain why the universe resets when he's summoned.
More likely, in my opinion, is that a bridge to every primordial but the one that holds them is created. The link to that primordial is possibly the Sovereign Gate, acting as a sort of entrance built into the primordial's mutilated body.
As for Silverlake, I suspect she would have to do something that mimics a primordial's prison, such that the loop mistakes her dimension for one as well and skips over destroying it. The problem is that won't be part of the original blueprint - so she'll either need to bridge the gap back herself, or more likely get Zach and Zorian to do it.
u/None [+7] (2 hours later)
wouldn't make any physical sense
Mind-shattering cosmic entity and you expect it to follow conventional geometries?
u/Quetzhal [+16] (3 hours later)
Yes? Assuming that a mind-shattering cosmic entity should break conventional geometry just because it's a mind-shattering cosmic entity is just your brain making associations with other geometry-breaking entities. Is there any reason to believe this one breaks geometry in that fashion?
We've been shown that space can be compressed in the MoL universe. No reason to assume anything else. It's not impossible or even that unlikely, but I'm going with the razor first.
u/None [+10] (4 hours later)
Normally, mental contact with the entity resulted in quick insanity [...]
As you can see above, mind-shattering is paraphrasing the way the author described the primordial. It can induce madness and insanity upon individuals therefore it can shatter minds ergo mind-shattering. I never implied that the geometries the entity existed in were the cause of the madness or insanity.
Also, if you want to be pedantic, I never said it broke geometry. I just said it used non-conventional geometries. Nothing about it being non-conventional equates to it breaking geometry. Even within conventional geometries there are objects and surfaces that fold in on themselves (e.g. Klein bottles).
Secondly, you act as if using associations to other similar entities is a bad thing. It is both natural and normal for authors to use allusions to other constructs in literature to convey feeling and tone. This is an obvious allusion to Cthulhu and other cosmic entities. While not all of the cosmic entities are non-conventional, most of them do follow non-conventional geometries.
Also if you note what I wrote, I used the word expect, which implies using context and clues to extrapolate a data point which you might not know. In this case, I asked if you expected it to follow conventional geometries. So, using meta-knowledge of the author's allusion and information from the text ("[...] Golden-Feathered Worm was very dimensionally[sic] complex [...]"), it is normal to assume that it will not follow conventional geometries.
u/Quetzhal [+0] (6 hours later)
It's not a bad thing, it's just not a good thing. It's an entirely neutral thing. I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong, just that I'm approaching the problem from a different point.
Also, we're referring to the primordial beneath Cyoria, not the Golden-Feathered Worm. If we're talking about allusions from the text, specifying dimensional complexity and the Golden-Feathered Worm makes it sound like a unique trait. Actually, it sounds rather like a prime candidate for the Sovereign Gate.
Though of course, it's possible and perhaps even likely that all primordials are dimensionally complex.
u/space_fountain [+2] (18 hours later)
We were told that they are multidimensional beings. The idea doesn't seem that weird to me. I think you're assuming the Primordial is like inside some space inside his prison, but I don't know that we need to assume that. If it isn't. If it's more like it's sealed just outside the universe, there's no reason the plug shouldn't extend "inside" of it.
u/Empiricist_or_not [+1] Aspiring polite Hegemonizing swarm (3 days later)
Having an exit to the prison inside himself wouldn't make any physical sense - though I suppose it would explain why the universe resets when he's summoned.
Think of a klein bottle.
u/valeskas [+11] (53 minutes later)
I can't think of a reason for their prisons be linked
Prisons may leech some resource from primordials and utilize in hidden divine machinery. So their absence may destabilise something important.
u/space_fountain [+3] (57 minutes later)
Definitely agree that's the most likely one for them to be trapped in. I'd wonder then though what happens when you "free" the primordial
u/sicutumbo [+3] (30 minutes later)
My theory that Zorian makes a giant floating castle to explore the world with at the end of the story has been confirmed! Airships for the win!
He's been able to have a giant floating castle for a while now. Just attach a floating spell to the orb, and he's set.
Well, he can't actually access said castle when it's floating, and when he can access it it's invisible, but it still fits the criteria.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+3] Father of Learning (32 minutes later)
I was thinking more Howl's Moving Castle style than port-a-castle
u/Saffrin-chan [+13] (22 minutes later)
Despite what was said in this chapter, I'll be skeptical if the primordial prison isn't used somehow to break out of the loop.
u/literal-hitler [+19] (2 hours later)
Just add it to Checkov's armory.
u/I_Hump_Rainbowz [+4] (3 hours later)
What are the other options besides souljacking into Zachs body and then souljacking into zorians own body?
u/literal-hitler [+2] (3 hours later)
I guess that depends what RR did.
u/LeifCarrotson [+1] (4 days later)
You mean it depends on what QI did? QI was the one who muddled Zach and Zorian's souls together back at the end of chapter 4.
u/literal-hitler [+1] (5 days later)
I guess that depends on what RR did to break out of the loop.*
u/space_fountain [+13] (44 minutes later)
Second bonus theory. They aren't in just any primordial. They're inside the one trapped at Cyoria. Think about it. We know there aren't huge number of them so it was already decently likely. Add to that that Silverlake is quite right that the easiest and simplest thing would be just not to copy any of the prisons. So why did they? Maybe it's not so much another angle on the prison as the other side of it.
There are a decent number of flaws with this. The biggest being why can the primordial be broken out then, but I still think it's a worthwhile theory
u/JiggyRobot [+12] (49 minutes later)
If they are inside the Cyoria primordial, wouldn't that mean the primordial has an entrance to its own prison inside its body?
Oh god, the world is going to get destroyed by a primordial prison door paradox.
u/None [+19] (2 hours later)
My theory is that's the only way to trap primordials. They need to be folded in onto themselves to prevent them from acting in any manner.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+3] Father of Learning (5 hours later)
Yo dawg...
u/DerSaidin [+6] (14 hours later)
"But it's the same prison as it has always been… just seen from a different perspective," Silverlake said
If they are inside the Cyoria primordial, the different perspective is inside the prison looking out.
u/daydev [+2] (8 hours later)
It's not too crazy to assume the primordial has a connection to outside from inside its body, a "mouth" if you will, the current "outside" being inside the prison. It enters the paradox territory when you consider that this way the "mouth" location on the inside the primordial matches the location of the prison entrance two dimensions out.
u/IFap2PB [+2] (54 minutes later)
That was my immediate thought as well. It would go a ways to explain why Z&Z couldn't find any other primordial prisons. They just don't exist within the time loop.
u/Dismalward [+6] (an hour later)
They havent actively found their prison locations tbf so its a jump to say their prisons are missing. Until they know for a fact the prison is supposed to be at a certain place, its all up in the air for now.
u/DCarrier [+2] (19 hours later)
That was also my impression. "But it's the same prison as it has always been… just seen from a different perspective," sounds a lot like you're now on the inside of the prison looking out.
Perhaps the primordial breaking out was the primordial dragon that the world they're used to is in.
u/AKAAkira [+10] (a day later)
So I had this thought a little late, but it struck me that Mrs. Kazinski would flip at Zorian if she ever found out he let Kirielle become friends with someone who can turn into a black cat. Considering witches are probably associated with black cats and all.
Anyway, great chapter, we're getting a bunch of neat info.
u/vallar57 [+10] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (4 hours later)
The staple of magicpunk, airship, here we come!
The primordial theory is beautiful. I guess Z&Z will find themselves studying summoning magic soon, in order to device a spell that can planeshift them out of this dimension using one of the primordial cages as a reference or something. Why summoning? Because it's one field of magic mentioned rather regularily, but not yet seen being practiced by anyone. Well, it's blocked by the SG, but still, my Chekhov Gun senses are tingling.
u/JiggyRobot [+7] (46 minutes later)
Huh. So if a primordial is enough to contain all that, makes you wonder what the source of the primordial (one of the dragons) could contain.
Probably enough room in one of those bad boys for a universe, with some extra space to fit in a spiritual plane and maybe even a few fancy pocket dimension/prisons. After all, just using of the dragons to make a planet seems kind of small potatoes now.
u/IFap2PB [+8] (51 minutes later)
Also makes you wonder where the gods came from before they were in the current universe, and where did they go when they disappeared.
u/Gurkenglas [+6] (an hour later)
The universe might be running out of energy the same way the time loop is, and when it went below some level of energy the gods starved.
u/IFap2PB [+8] (2 hours later)
Or at least bailed from that dragon and used one of the other ones flying around to make a new universe. Maybe as soon as Zack and Zorian hop out into their "real world" they'll have to escape that real world into whatever universe is around that one.
u/JiggyRobot [+3] (10 hours later)
That's a very good point. I was initially thinking that perhaps the gods moved onto one of the other world dragons/universes, but that wouldn't explain where they came from originally.
It suggests some sort of 'outer' universe that has gods and world dragons running around in.
u/IFap2PB [+5] (48 minutes later)
It could be that the reason the time loop was activated a month early was a byproduct of the primordial escaping it's prison.
u/literal-hitler [+3] (2 hours later)
Doesn't the invasion fail to free the primordial even if Z&Z don't do anything, now that RR is gone?
u/IFap2PB [+6] (2 hours later)
No, when Zack and Zorian don't interfere the primordial is freed. Even when Zorian triggered the summoning two weeks early the primordial was freed, instigating an early termination of the loop. The primordial summoning definitely succeeds at least to the degree that reality is broken without intervention from either Zack or Zorian. Red Robes just makes the invasion much more effective in terms of strategy and destructive power.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+3] Father of Learning (5 hours later)
The very second loop Zorian and Zach don't do anything and by the time the loop resets the primordial hasn't been freed, and that was with RR super charging them
u/IFap2PB [+3] (5 hours later)
We didn't have a point of view on the ritual site though. The ritual could very likely have been well underway. It is known that without RR interference, the loop ends right about when the summoning is completed, so the primordial might have been about to be freed, we just didn't see it.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+1] Father of Learning (6 hours later)
RR has had decades to fine tune this and the cult alone could manage it in a couple of hours while RR+invaders+cult+undead can't in 6?
u/IFap2PB [+1] (16 hours later)
Successfully summoning the primordial terminates the loop immediately. If anything, Red Robes would want to delay the summoning as long as possible while in the time loop. Otherwise he wouldn't have time plan the invasion.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+1] Father of Learning (21 hours later)
He's already planned the invasion, it has been optimized, anything more gets increasingly more marginal results and just isn't worth it
u/IFap2PB [+1] (22 hours later)
It would still cut the time loop short though, and he might be working on other important things. Like breaking into the facility with the sovereign gate.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+1] Father of Learning (a day later)
Z and Z did that in line 2 resets, RR has had 30 years!
u/IFap2PB [+1] (a day later)
They haven't tangled with the Guardian though, which Red Robe would have had to deal with to escape the Time loop.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+1] Father of Learning (a day later)
There's no need to, the gate only shut once he left. No reason to fight
u/IFap2PB [+1] (a day later)
The guardian could very easily destroy him permanently, or at least disable whatever mechanism he was using to stay in the loop. Caution would be paramount, and he'd likely needed to milk the guardian for information like Zack and Zorian did. All of that would take multiple attempts. RR probably visited the guardian hundreds of times planning and preparing. At least five to figure out how to use the powers of each of the Emperors artifacts.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+1] Father of Learning (a day later)
He just needed to ask how to leave! You only need the 5 artifacts after the door closes behind him. He could leave any time after he met the guardian the first time.
u/IFap2PB [+1] (a day later)
He still needed to learn how to use the ability to knock people out of the time loop, probably from the dagger, from the guardian. And on top of that all evidence seems to indicate that Zack is the Controller, and so RR would need to puzzle out a way to trick the guardian into letting him leave without letting it figure out he was a fake time traveler and getting enough interaction with the world outside the loop to find his old body and switch out souls.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+1] Father of Learning (a day later)
He still needed to learn how to use the ability to knock people out of the time loop, probably from the dagger, from the guardian.
He didn't need that.
And on top of that all evidence seems to indicate that Zack is the Controller, and so RR would need to puzzle out a way to trick the guardian into letting him leave without letting it figure out he was a fake time traveler
Zorian got that from his first conversation with the Guardian that being a looper = being the looper.
and getting enough interaction with the world outside the loop to find his old body and switch out souls.
I get the body switching thing (though that could have taken like, 5 years at the most if he was okay with killing people whenever he felt like it) but I have no idea what you mean by the first part
u/IFap2PB [+1] (a day later)
The orb has the power to store memories in the time loop. It doesn't have that power outside of the time loop. Zack and Zorian learned how to use it from the guardian. While it's possible that RR deciphered how to expel people from the time loop using an imperial artifacts ability without contacting the guardian at all, it is unlikely he did so when such a resource was already at his disposal, since he must have known about it. I've re-read all of his scenes ten or twelve times and meticulous research doesn't seem to be a likely personality trait from him. Besides that, we don't actually know how much longer he was in the loop before Zorian. Based on his combat ability it likely wasn't the full thirty years. He got wounded by academy students after all.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (22 hours later)
If anything, Red Robes would want to delay the summoning as long as possible while in the time loop.
Unless RR wants to hijack the summoning to make a bridge back to the real world.
Zorian noticed that RR's involvement seemed to be "turn up and provide a bunch of info to the invaders at the start, then mostly disappear". That could easily be him just setting up his exit every time in case he needs it, not unlike how ZZ set up a bunch of things every month.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+1] Father of Learning (a day later)
So what's he doing that requires every second? That he would purposely fail the summoning until the last second (which, as seen with Zorians comment the first time it breaks out, doesn't happen every time) just to get right and even then fail for 30 years
u/IFap2PB [+1] (a day later)
He doesn't need to fail the summoning. It is timed specifically for the end of the time loop where the effects of the planetary alignment is greatest. He simply has no reason to speed it up.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+1] Father of Learning (a day later)
effects of the planetary alignment is greatest.
Do we know that and do we know that has anything to do with the primordial? It broke out just fine weeks beforehand
u/IFap2PB [+1] (a day later)
Reality cracked, but that might not have been enough power to fully break the primordial free of it's prison. It has been mentioned numerous times that summoning the primordial takes massive amounts of power, hence the reason for it coinciding with the planetary alignment. Admittedly this was mostly speculation on Zorian's part, but it's speculation he continues to maintain even after witnessing a summoning occur earlier.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+1] Father of Learning (a day later)
Wasn't it reality cracking and a hand/tentacle/thing coming out? That seems like you don't need any more power
u/IFap2PB [+1] (a day later)
I presume you are speaking of the ninth paragraph from the end at chapter 52?
"Something huge and dark brown like a hand studded with mouths and eyes, shot out of the rip in space, but Zorian didn't have time to study it much. Without any prompting from him, the marker on his soul suddenly activated and everything went black."
So yeah I admit a hand broke out of the prison, but that didn't mean the whole body would be able to. Even if the you're right and a full summoning could be completed without waiting for the planar alignment, there are several things that wouldn't make sense and explanations that could shed light on the cult's actions.
Why wait for the day of the planar alignment if it wasn't important? There were literally centuries of other days a primordial could be summoned.
It is possible that the energy required to summon the primordial was lessened due to the fact that the time loop is taking place inside the primordial itself, therefore reducing the energy requirement below the estimated threshold.
It is also possible that the Cult of the Dragon Below has the best shot at controlling the primordial with their own magics at the height of the planar alignment when magic is at it's strongest.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
I assume that he regularly set up the invasion to succeed just in case, but didn't actually use the exit until it seemed necessary.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+1] Father of Learning (a day later)
just in case
Just in case what? What possible reason would he have? It's not like it affects the real world
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
Just in case he needs to leave after the current month. Which eventually he did.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+1] Father of Learning (a day later)
That doesn't involve the invasion at all?
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
The context of the conversation was the possibility that he was hijacking the summoning in some way to make a bridge to the real world.
u/None [+5] (2 hours later)
[deleted]
u/kaukamieli [+1] (2 days later)
Primordial, not gate. There are others.
u/Overmind_Slab [+6] (4 hours later)
Damien's fiancé's family trains magical bees right? I wonder if that'll come up for this wasp pyramid heist.
u/thrawnca [+14] Carbon-based biped (4 hours later)
The 'wasps' are three meters long and sapient. Probably unrelated.
u/Overmind_Slab [+1] (4 hours later)
Yeah those don't sound like bees at all except for their appearance.
u/serge_cell [+14] (8 hours later)
She will have second trigger.
u/monkyyy0 [+3] (14 hours later)
She was already double triggered, it's the third that changes everything
u/None [+2] (7 days later)
what's this referencing? sounds like Worm
u/monkyyy0 [+2] (7 days later)
Maybe
u/serge_cell [+8] (7 hours later)
time that moves in braids and spirals
Seems Time Braid reference :)
u/IFap2PB [+5] (55 minutes later)
Smh. You spend years building an experimental airship (airplane?) and some kids steal it and take it for a joyride.
u/IFap2PB [+2] (54 minutes later)
Smh. You spend years building an experimental airship (airplane?) and some kids steal it and take it for a joyride.
u/yesiamaracist [+2] (a day later)
have we seen the unknown girl (the 3rd person who was inexplicably talented like zack and noule in first loop but didn't get a reason why) reappear because im sure she's rr if not
u/None [+3] (7 days later)
She was inexplicably talented because Zach helped her with stuff
u/asdkant [+2] (a day later)
ebook version updated up to chapter 77: https://github.com/asdkant/bookify-mol/releases/tag/c77
u/23143567 [+4] (37 minutes later)
Feels like a slow chapter - loop as primordial and airship sums it up. I really hoped that we'd see Silverlake join the loop in some way or at least make inquiries into securing that option.
u/space_fountain [+11] (39 minutes later)
I think she's definitely angling for that. It sounds like she's mobilizing a great deal of her assets to try to understand them. It could just be curiosity, but this is someone who's managed to attain immortality. To me it sounds like she's trying to develop a plan.
u/literal-hitler [+17] (2 hours later)
She understands the situation far better than anyone else they've told by a wide margin. She understands just how valuable it is and that her time to act is limited. She has the most knowledge of the relevant subjects.
She is the most dangerous person to them by far.
u/IFap2PB [+2] (2 hours later)
But also the best person to know or come up with a plan for either finding a way out of the loop. It might be a good idea for Z&Z to just bring her into the loop. That way she has what she wants and can't really interfere anymore. If she finds a way out she can try it and Z&Z can watch and see if the Guardian boots her back or destroys that iteration of her without risking themselves.
u/literal-hitler [+2] (2 hours later)
But once they let her into the loop, Z&Z know way too much about her. Quite possibly more than anyone currently alive. We already know one person left the loop without the Anchor, why not another? Though messing up Zorian's soul and mind wiping Zach before she left would make sure they couldn't follow.
u/IFap2PB [+3] (3 hours later)
She's too smart to take that kind of risk. Chapter 76 proved that Zorian alone would give her a tough fight in a physical confrontation. Against Zack she's screwed.
u/literal-hitler [+4] (3 hours later)
A direct confrontation where she knows nothing about them. I was thinking more of an ambush when and where they would least expect it after having more information. And/or time to gather firepower.
u/IFap2PB [+3] (5 hours later)
Still a huge risk. If she does any serious digging she'll realize that Zorian is a master mind mage and extremely paranoid. If she screws up the slightest bit she's dead. She might be able to take out Zack and Zorian with proper planning but it would be a toss up. Those kinds of risks aren't worth taking when there's no obvious reward.
u/IFap2PB [+0] (5 hours later)
Even if she could overpower Zack and Zorian, Xvim and Aleric have informants and skills of their own. Their continued awareness of the time-loop relies on Zack and Zorian. If either of them caught wind of anything involving more than her, herself. And besides that, the only way for her to get into the loop in the first place would be via Zorian using current methods. The only way she way she would keep her memories is if she had Zorian's full cooperation. That would mean that Zorian would have full purview of any messages she might send to herself via the notebooks and would be able to read and edit them at will.
u/melmonella [+1] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (8 hours later)
She could encode them.
u/IFap2PB [+1] (16 hours later)
If she was any good at that she would have done so with her copy of "Unspeakable Cults". Zorians extensive library of divination spells found what he was looking for in ten minutes.
u/melmonella [+1] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (18 hours later)
How would she encode an original book? Messages she sends are just text, that's what encryption is for.
u/IFap2PB [+1] (20 hours later)
She could easily rewrite the book in code. For messages though, she would have had to have developed the code before the time loop, and it would have to be something simple enough for her to look for and realize what it is, all while making it seem harmless to Zorian. Highly impractical without careful planning that the time loop makes impossible.
u/melmonella [+1] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (a day later)
A simple viginere cypher can be easilly developed without expecting a time loop to happen.
u/IFap2PB [+1] (a day later)
A viginere cypher is just a bunch of Caesar ciphers woven together, meaning that the message would look like gibberish. Anyone would be able to tell it was some sort of code at a glance and that would instantly put Zorian on alert.
u/melmonella [+1] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (a day later)
...so? She can openly tell him she isn't sharing her secret research with him, that's just common sense and totally in character for her.
u/Dismalward [+5] (an hour later)
Unfortunately they cant really trust the witch as opposed to his other friends because theyve only known her for 3 or so months and she knows a great deal about soul magic/dimension loop she can be a great threat despite their seeming immortality inside the loop.
u/None [+1] (35 minutes later)
u/IFap2PB [+1] (52 minutes later)
A good chapter for building up the next stage of the story. Nothing much happened plot-wise besides new information, but good stuff none the less.
u/I_Hump_Rainbowz [+1] (3 hours later)
What is the over/under on whether they fight silverlake by the end of this book?
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (4 hours later)
That would make me sigh in frustration. Once she believes that the loop is real, what could she possibly gain by attacking them that she couldn't get by simple negotiation?
u/I_Hump_Rainbowz [+1] (7 hours later)
she wants out and is willing to get through a primordial and in doing so releases it in the real world. they heroically sacrifice themselves by stopping it saving the real people and erasing themselves (or at least the copy of themselves)
This would be super cheesy but who knows.
u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (8 hours later)
If the only way out is via the primordial prisons, then ZZ will be doing the same.
Still not seeing a reason for Silverlake to fight them.
u/I-want-pulao [+1] (a day later)
Silverlake is consistently shrewd, suspicious, greedy, and unfriendly. Only time she's been somewhat nice is when she says that she'd teach Kana. Even in the last chapter she attacked them, when she KNEW that they are powerful enough to have brought down a grey hunter. She seems to be in the mindset of attack now, ask questions later. Even after getting smacked down last chapter, she's still willing to spy on them overtly and get her contacts to spy on them when her own efforts failed.
They'll have to fight Silverlake eventually, if only to beat her down. She's too greedy to make a good capitalist. You know you gotta at least promise trickle down.
u/27kjmm [+1] (5 hours later)
Could Red Robe have gotten the controller marker through some sort of modified familiar spell?
u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (5 hours later)
I'm more and more doubtful that he actually had a Controller marker. I think he probably had a temporary marker, and then found an alternative exit.
Perhaps part of the reason he helped the invasion was to help him access the prison in the Hole?
u/tyes77 [+1] (21 hours later)
I'm inclined to think he was found to be part of the invasion so Zach included him on the time loop to learn more information. Or that he was helping Zach with soul magic. So far we have no explanation on how Veyers ties in and that's the only thing I can think of atm.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (22 hours later)
he was found to be part of the invasion so Zach included him on the time loop
That...makes no sense. It would be much easier to learn everything he knows by repeatedly interrogating him, not by empowering him.
u/tyes77 [+1] (22 hours later)
Yeah but there's no real proof of why Veyers entered the time loop so we can only make guesses and this is one of them. You have a better one that doesn't involve the lich?
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
Well, for starters, to include him in the loop, Zach must have either trusted him or been attacked and subverted.
u/None [+1] (a day later)
[removed]
u/LucidityWaver [+1] (3 days later)
I would read it if it's decent, but I would read anything decent if it's game mechanics, MoL universe or using TGWP's fantastical / metaphysical(?) elements? (I've had a loooong, tiresome day after a long week)
u/None [+2] (3 days later)
[removed]
u/LucidityWaver [+2] (3 days later)
I'd forgotten about that plot point!
u/jaylandsman [+1] (a day later)
Interesting info about familiars being able to shape shift. Possible RR is Zach's familiar gone rogue. RR was described as freakishly strong I think, which this could explain. Soul bond between them might help with marker transmission/alteration. Would need to be a smart creature, but surely lots of those about. Perhaps a dragon?
Also not clear how SG would deal with soul bonded controller; its not possible to preserve controller's soul but reset that of bonded soul.
u/Mingablo [+1] (a day later)
Do we know what the limits of teleportation are. Zorian needs a dimension gate to hope over to Klatch (forgot real name) where his bro is. But can teleport around the local area fairly well. Has the author given a teleport radius or even hinted at one yet?
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (3 days later)
He has stated that the mana costs scale with distance, and are not linear. So it's more efficient to do smaller hops, and eventually a jump is just too far for any humanoid caster.
QI could get from Ulquaan Ibasa to Cyoria in a few hours if motivated enough.
u/Solonarv [+1] Chaos Legion (a day later)
I vaguely recall some character (probably Zorian) chaining teleports to travel long distances, which strongly suggests that there is indeed a maximum distance.