11 KiB
[DC] A discussion on whether Batman is optimizing his resources [xpost /SubredditDrama]
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Author: u/appropriate-username *
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Score: 13
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Created: 2017-11-23T21:53:02
Post:
Comments:
u/lazaret99 [+28] (21 minutes later)
This is a pretty weak discussion tbh
u/None [+16] (32 minutes later)
[removed]
u/TheAtomicOption [+1] (an hour later)
Yup. After unsubbing from the defaults, and getting a job where I'm surrounded by very smart people, I've found it's sadly important to occasionally venture out of my bubble to remind myself what it's like out there in normal person land. :S
u/UnsubHero [+20] (an hour later)
It is a sad day indeed, for one of our own has decided to leave us. Let's honor TheAtomicOption with a stroll down memory lane. The following links will lead you to /u/TheAtomicOption's MVP moments in /r/rational.
Top Submissions
If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads
u/TheAtomicOption [+22] (an hour later)
Are... are you a bot? I... I didn't from this sub, but this is still awesome
u/NotACauldronAgent [+12] Probably (an hour later)
Looks like a bot-probably detects when someone says unsub. Still super neat.
u/DaystarEld [+9] Pokémon Professor (6 hours later)
Reminder for anyone looking for rational Batman fics that Extinction Burst exists and is really good :)
u/Slapdash17 [+3] (18 minutes later)
After Hours did a fun video on this topic, although it does jump around on which continuity it references.
u/trekie140 [+4] (23 hours later)
I really liked After Hours for a long time and recommend a lot of their videos, but I think this one exposes a big weakness of the series. When discussing protagonists, they tend to go in with the intention of deconstructing them and don’t seriously consider what makes those characters resonate with people.
I don’t think it’s fair to criticize Batman for failing to break out of the cycle his stories are stuck in when that story is what people are there to read, and the fact that he keeps on fighting no matter how many setbacks he faces is a crucial element of his character that people like. They’re criticizing a story for doing exactly what it’s trying to do.
Sorin’s defense is this video relies on the narrative conceit that Batman is good at his job even when it wouldn’t make sense in reality, while everyone else keeps hammering away with examples that don’t exist in-universe. Additionally, Sorin as a comedy character is a narcissist who idolizes power fantasies so I don’t know how seriously we’re supposed to take him.
A similar thing happens in the Spider Man video where Dan’s reason for loving the character is that they’re both sad, hapless nerds that won’t grow up. The episodes about comedy characters are just as bad, since the fact that they‘re idiots and assholes in dysfunctional relationships is what makes them funny to watch.
I can see how this would be appealing to some, why else would Rick & Morty exist if people weren’t hungry for cynical deconstructions, but it’s something that I’ve had more than my fill of and at this point in my life I would rather escape from the crushing despair of reality than be reminded of it.
u/Slapdash17 [+6] (a day later)
This reply gave me lots of thoughts, so apologies if my response seems scattered. I'll try to be organized.
They certainly do go into fiction with the deliberate intention of deconstructing it, but I'm not sure why that's necessarily a problem. You say they don't take into account what makes those characters or storylines compelling, but I'm not sure why that's relevant for what that show is trying to accomplish. When they discuss the absurdity of the setup for 101 Dalmatians, I'm not sure if they need to temper their discussion with "but here's why it's a good movie that people found enjoyable." No matter how true it is, it doesn't seem relevant to their thesis.
"They're criticizing a story for doing what it set out to do." I don't see how this is a rebuttal to the content of their video. Basically they're flirting with the concept of efficient altruism, a concept that I think is a fair one to apply to analysis of Batman. He's a billionaire who moonlights as a vigilante: even if that's an intentional narrative choice, and even if that makes for a compelling story, that doesn't make the approach above criticism, nor does it make the fictional character of Batman automatically correct in his choices.
I think I may be taking away something different from these videos than you. I felt like the strongest point against Batman made within it was what Kate started saying toward the end: the concept of a billionaire taking to the streets and beating up people according to his moral philosophy is a horrifying prospect. And as for the Spiderman vid, I don't think the point was "Spiderman is worthwhile because he is like this dopey talking head we have on our show." I think the point was "Spiderman is worthwhile because he is a relatable person with real world struggles." I don't relate to Spiderman because I'm some hapless nerd, it's because I know how it feels to work hard at something that I find rewarding but still have a crummy apartment I can just barely afford at the end of the day. I can't relate to the ultra rich, ultra strong, ultra smart Batman, but I can relate to Spiderman.
I do think cynicism and deconstruction are a bit overplayed these days, and need to be tempered with understanding the point of the construction that's being deconstructed in the first place. This is especially true if you think that deconstruction reminds you of "the crushing despair of reality." You're right: with those stakes, videos like the one I posted just aren't worth it. That said, I think this is a weird subreddit to make that point: stuff is deconstructed here quite ruthlessly all the time. Still, I get what you're saying, and this is why I subscribe to youtubers like Lindsay Ellis, who has fantastic videos analyzing certain movies, and while she can be critical, some of her videos are in defense of a movie that is underappreciated. MovieBob has a series called "Really That Good" that even has the stated purpose of fighting the tide of excessive cynicism. If you want positive and grounded criticism, I'd check them both out.
Just a side note: My dash key on my laptop doesn't work, so that's why I keep using colons so often. Sorry for the awkward grammar!
ETA: Fuck it, here, have some links.
Lindsay Ellis: The Complex Feels of Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2. This one actually made me tear up a bit.
Lindsay Ellis: The Case for Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame Her defending a Disney movie that is frequently maligned and underrated.
MovieBob: REALLY THAT GOOD: Raimi's Spiderman 1 and 2. Not only is this relevant to something you brought up, it honestly did make me see these movies in a new, more appreciative light.
u/trekie140 [+2] (a day later)
You’re right. The thing is that I originally watched these videos at a time when I was emotionally vulnerable and didn’t understand what I was meant to take away from them, so some made me feel very insecure about liking certain stories and characters.
It’s a fate I want other people to avoid because it did me no good. To this day, I obsessively analyze almost everything I watch because I still feel self loathing about what I do and don’t like. Expressing and coping with those feelings is hard, especially in person.
u/None [+1] (a day later)
[removed]
u/Slapdash17 [+3] (a day later)
It’s because he picks which crimes he stops. I’ve never heard of him dealing with jaywalking, tax evasion, pot smoking, or illegal immigration, even though all of those things are against the law.
And sure, we can say he fights the crimes that are “the worst”, but that’s the point, right? Gotham is subject to his thoughts on the matter whether they like it or not. I guess Gotham should just be grateful that he’s agreeable for the most part but yeesh, what a terrible precedent to set. Could you imagine if billionaires were vigilantes in our world?
u/None [+1] (a day later)
[removed]
u/Slapdash17 [+3] (3 days later)
I'll have to disagree with you on your first point: a masked billionaire vigilante enforcing bad laws DOES sound like the worst way to handle the existence of bad laws to me. I mean, Christ, write an op ed or something (ugh it's so weird not being able to use my dash key). Use your vast wealth to lobby. Use the professional contacts you may have to learn more about that issue that concerns you.
As for the good law thing, one of my biggest qualms with vigilantism is a lack of oversight. As much as there is to criticize about the present day police force, at least there's a semblance of oversight and procedure. Imagine the poor detective who goes to an absolute mess of a crime scene, and a masked Bill Gates is there to say "they were bad, I pinky promise."
Batman gets away with this for the most part because, as the reader, we know Batman is correct in his assessments, and he is constantly praised for his intellect. We wouldn't have any of those assurances with real world billionaires running around as vigilantes.
And I suppose I should acknowledge that my politics are at least a bit of an influence here. If Elon Musk responded to some of Trump's recent attempted actions towards illegal immigration with him suiting up and chasing down schoolchildren from illegal immigrant families, I'd have quite a few things to say, and none of them would be nice.
u/eaglejarl [+2] (7 days later)
Offhand the only crimes that I can remember Batman pursuing people for are things like violent crimes, theft, and arson, which I think are ones that no sane person would contend are bad to enforce. I don't recall a case where he busts people for weed and I am very confident that he's never gone after anyone for jaywalking, littering, or etc.
u/CouteauBleu [+1] We are the Empire. (3 hours later)
Too much Trump. People insulting Trump supporters (because that's worked before, right?)
Would not recommend.
u/None [+5] (20 hours later)
well to be fair the discussion did take place in the comment section of a post about Trump.