26 KiB
[RT][FF] Naruto. The Need to Become Stronger, Chapter 27: Resolve and Reality
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Author: u/Sophronius The Need to Become Stronger*
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URL: https://needtobecomestronger.wordpress.com/2017/12/03/chapter-27/
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Score: 35
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Created: 2017-12-03T16:28:52
Post:
Comments:
u/Sophronius [+9] The Need to Become Stronger (5 minutes later)
I'm starting to get back on track, huzah!
This is actually one of those chapters that I wrote ages ago, I think even before chapters 1-5, but which I edited over a dozen times. You can still tell the style is more anime-esque though, with countless perspective-jumps, even after I deleted several segments. Sometimes I think it would have been better to just throw out these old chapters and write them again from scratch, as I'm worried that they feel too chaotic and disjointed right now in a way I can't easily fix.NEVERMIND I CLEARLY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU GUYS ARE GONNA LIKE. I'LL JUST SHUT UP NOW.
u/SkyTroupe [+2] (2 days later)
Just write what you want and I'll enjoy it :)
u/MaddoScientisto [+7] (5 hours later)
Amazing. At first I was confused about Naruto's stance but the chapter finally made it clear to me that he refutes both Neji's and Lee's. Also that moment at the end, mysterious dark side confirmed
u/sicutumbo [+8] (7 hours later)
Support ninja kind of get shafted by the tournament fighting setup, don't they? Sakura, for example, is a medic, who can also use some water jutsu and genjutsu if she's forced to fight, along with basic throwing weapons and such. On a team with Sasuke and Naruto, she's a fantastic asset, as she can act as a force multiplier by healing and using general battlefield control. Similarly with Ino and her clan jutsu. But in a one on one fight, a majority of their skills are either useless or nearly so. Sakura vs Sasuke or Lee is a joke, even when Sakura has a skill set much more suited to what ninja do as their role. Any medic that is even more specialized for support is even more screwed, because the tournament style test makes their abilities irrelevant.
It's not really as relevant, but Temari is kind of the same. Her ability to control a battlefield is insane, she can deflect any number of brown weapons, and she generally forces every ninja that isn't allied with her in a large fight to keep what she can do in mind. That she is rather specialized is mostly irrelevant because Kankuro can have puppets to defend her while she forces enemies to get behind cover. She lost against Shikamaru in canon because one on one is a terrible use for her skill set.
Also, what is up with team Guy? You have 2 melee specialists, and instead of rounding that out with a medic or ninjutsu specialist, they throw in the most limited range specialist available? If any of them gets injured on a mission, they're just fucked. Similarly if they have to fight someone like Temari or Gaara who focus on aoe ninjutsu, as seen by Lee vs Gaara. They're overspecialized, extremely so.
u/JulianWyvern [+7] Wayward Wanderer (7 hours later)
We know from canon that even though support ninja are heavily disadvantaged, whoever handles promotions does keep that in mind, since Shikamaru was raised to Chuunin.
Or of course, it doesn't really matter in the greater scheme of things. Naruto and Sasuke were technically Genin until the very end IIRC...
u/sicutumbo [+8] (7 hours later)
Shikamaru is decent in single combat. Not great, and it's not his specialty, but his shadow is flexible enough and he's clever enough to make it work. He still shows his skills even if he loses. Medics don't, and controlling the battlefield is difficult when there is essentially no terrain to speak of, and only two contestants.
Basically, the tournament should be team vs team combat, because that's what ninja actually do as their job.
Presumably ranks mean something when you aren't the main characters. Otherwise why would people risk death or severe injury for the chance of promotion?
u/JulianWyvern [+1] Wayward Wanderer (8 hours later)
Seems to be mostly about generic power levels and being allowed to lead teams.
u/nipplelightpride [+1] (2 days later)
I’m guessing the pay is better
u/kaukamieli [+1] (19 hours later)
Team vs team combat still probably doesn't go well for medics. Take one down, medic starts healing him and it's 3v1 suddenly.
u/Izeinwinter [+1] (10 hours later)
You are assuming a Naruto - verse social institution is in some way fit for purpose. This is not a well founded assumption. When time-braid had the fanon that the entire planet had been fucked with by the forces of hell, that made all the sense. Canon - and most fanfic, describe a world in which just about every single thing that has some extra sucky local equilibrium it can get stuck in, is in that extra sucky place.
u/None [+11] (an hour later)
YES! YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!
I've been following this fic for a while (maybe you remember some of my early comments), and the entire time my main gripe with it was that, even though the writing style, world-building, and characterisation was excellent, Naruto didn't feel smart enough to be the protagonist of a rational fic. Either he was being overshadowed by Sakura's keen analytical mind and epic memory, or Sasuke's own genius; to me, the Naruto shown earlier in this fic just didn't seem clever enough to be the protagonist, an honor that I thought Sakura deserved more.
But this chapter... man this chapter was awesome. It was like it took all my gripes about Naruto and shoved them back at me in a climax of tricks and tactics. You managed to take one of Naruto's core personality traits from the first series, his unpredictability, and make it rational. You've managed to justify why Naruto is the main character.
Sakura may be able to better analyze and dissect the techniques of her opponents, and Sasuke may be more skilled. But Naruto will do stuff that's new. Naruto will invent new techniques, or re-purpose old ones; Naruto will trick his opponents, not just beat them, and earn his name as Konoha's Number One Most Unpredictable Ninja through wit and guile. I like it. I like it a lot.
And even my critique about Naruto not seeming clever has been answered. Naruto is Naruto; his first instinct isn't to be tricky, or witty, but nice. Naruto wouldn't be Naruto if he wasn't always trying to be nice. And because of that people underestimate him. But here's he's shown that Good is Not Stupid, and I can't wait to see how the other characters react to what I think has definitely been the most straight-up in-universe demonstration of Naruo's intelligence since the fic began.
All in all, keep up the good work!
u/CaseyAshford [+12] (2 hours later)
I agree with your main points regarding the demonstration of Naruto's intelligence but I am not sure what you are talking about regarding him showing "Good is not Stupid". This seemed more like an overpowered prodigy using the darkest elements of manipulation against a comrade to secure victory in a conflict that is ultimately insignificant.
The willingness of Naruto to mock the accomplishments of a respected Jounin and the hard work of a peer in order to prove some kind of point seems more like an indicator that Naruto is not a good person rather than that he is an intelligent good person who is not nice.
I think that Naruto's drive to humiliate and crush the drive of Lee in this fanfic is a mirror of his drive to support Lee and defeat Neji in Canon. In Canon Naruto supported Lee and opposed the determinism of Neji as he considered himself to be similar to Lee in that he was a hard working underdog who was competing with prodigies. In this Fanfic the exact opposite is true as Naruto considers himself to be a unrecognized Genius and is offended by the fact that his peers who work harder than him are held in higher esteem. This seems most demonstrated in the Naruto-Sasuke dynamic but I believe hints of it are seen throughout the fanfic.
Naruto's behavior to me in this fight seems less like a desire to educate and more an expression of his inner demons. His disrespect for his peer and superior are ultimately driven by desire to be recognized as special due to his position of a unique intelligence and perspective directly conflicts with Lee's strident support for the power of hard work.
u/None [+6] (3 hours later)
woah that is actually a pretty concise and analytical character interpretation. I'm going to have to reread the fic and think about that some more.
Maybe my previous experience with Naruto has colored my view, making me assume things that aren't actually shown, but does Naruto not work hard in this fic? I read this chapter after having not looked at the fic during its long hiatus and, honestly, after having stopped reading it a while before that, so I may have forgotten. Is this Naruto just talented, rather than the hardworker he is in canon? I mean from this chapter and, what I can remember, this Naruto is always thinking about how to get ahead/thinking of new ideas for techniques or seals, and he seems pretty good at seals. Is he just talented at seals/techniques, or has he actually put in a serious amount of time studying? I do remember him going over to Sakura's for help studying way back in the first chapter, and thinking about how Haku could use his powers of teleportation for good back in Wave, but that's all.
But even so, I have to dispute that in this fic Naruto is not a good person. Maybe it's because it's one of the first scenes I really liked in this fic, but in the Wave Arc he was very, very upset about how he lived in a world where people could do things like teleport and raise massive stone walls instantly, and yet people only seemed to use those powers for killing rather than using them in the hundreds of mundane ways that could do a lot to improve the world. This Naruto still seems to have retained canon Naruto's innate desire for peace, so I would argue that he is still a good person.
And like he said in this chapter, he didn't actually believe anything he told Lee about his teammates, or Gai (he only really believed his spiel about accepting reality in order to overcome it; the one belief I think every rational protagonist has by default). He was just trying to goad Lee into doing something stupid.
And here lies what I think is the first true divergence of this Naruto from canon Naruto (except for the fact that this Naruto lives in a rational universe and so is smarter and was raised differently). This Naruto is still the same good person, with the same goals at heart (and I would argue still works hard; all of those tricks and new techniques and tactics don't come from nowhere; sitting down and thinking for an hour may not look as strenuous as doing push ups for the same amount of time, but it's still hard work), but has started to give up on being nice, and just started focusing on winning. And we can see this in the chapter. Naruto watched a bunch of fights were the blatant unfairness of what was going on made him feel ill and angry; even protesting about how such fights could be a valid demonstration of skill. And then proceeded to fight Lee in the most unfair way possible, by hiding underground and totally removing Lee's skill from the equation, all in order to win.
So while I would argue that Naruto at this point is still a good person, but I do agree that your ideas have a lot of merit. The way this is going, and the way this fic is progressing, could eventually lead to Naruto not being a good person. He's a clever kid with big dreams who wants to become stronger, likes inventing new techniques, and wants recognition; this is the first fic (except for Like Me) that could actually sell Naruto as the next Orichimaru and have me genuinely believe it. He's willing to humilate Lee (even I still believe he didn't truly believe what he was sayig) just to win a Chunnin Exam preliminary fight; already he's starting to slip away from Canon Naruto's morals. What he'd be willing to rationalize himself into doing in a real fight, with real stakes (like in the Invasion, if that happens in this fic), could be a big turning point in his character.
So essentially, I disagree with Naruto not being hardworking and not being a good person, but do think that with the way he's behaving he could quickly become a sort of Orochimaru-esque anti-hero obsessed with The Need to Become Stronger.
u/kaukamieli [+3] (19 hours later)
person who is not nice.
It is a fight. You get all the advantages you can. You can be nice outside of fights.
u/CaseyAshford [+2] (a day later)
So if you are debating a fellow student in front of your school it would be okay to start insulting their parents and mocking them for their dyslexia? Would it okay for one soldier sparring with another in a exhibition match before their shared community and superior officers to mock the military career and service of his opponents mentor?
Lee is a ninja of Konoha and a comrade to Naruto. The fact that he is currently competing with Naruto does not change that. A certain minimum standard of behavior should always be maintained. The idea that anything is acceptable in the pursuit of victory is counter to the underpinnings of any civilized society but is particularly opposed to the ideology of Kakashi and his belief that "Those that would disregard their comrades so easily are even worse than trash. And those who don't have the decency to respect the memories of their comrades are the worst."
u/kaukamieli [+4] (a day later)
Random debate and an actual bloody ninja fight that might give you a promotion are a bit different. Not to mention that we are kinda made to understand it's not usual to get promoted outside that.
If you are able to win by psychological warfare, that is just probability for the promotion.
How do we define a civilized society? They are child soldiers.
u/CaseyAshford [+1] (a day later)
So you think that Kakashi or the other ninja of Konoha who follow similar belief systems would find it acceptable to harm a comrade and otherwise do anything to win on the grounds that victory will provide a promotion? Even beyond the specific ideology encompassed by the "Will of Fire" and the high level of focus on bonds I would expect that disrespecting the service of a high ranking veteran in order to gain a psychological advantage against a peer is exactly the type of behavior that would alienate other members of the military or the military community in general.
In real life how comfortable would you be working with someone who is willing to publicly humiliate a peer by using his personal information against him in order to achieve a promotion?
Competition between comrades is necessary but simple common sense dictates that it has to be limited in order to enable cooperation and efficiency. A civilization that makes regular use of child soldiers may not be considered particularly moral by the standards of modern society but that does not mean it does not possess its own code of behavior.
u/kaukamieli [+1] (a day later)
In the canon Kakashi used genjutsu to make Sakura believe Sasuke was dead.
Anyway, it's not real world. I'm very much willing to believe that in this bloody ninja war it's ok to win by all means necessary. It's about the stakes, not just the promotion. If you lose, you might get whacked so bad you might not even be a ninja anymore. Like Lee in canon. People die in this test.
Our simple common sense is different than what common sense would be for people living in a world with battle wizards.
u/CaseyAshford [+1] (a day later)
I would consider the example of Kakashi using genjutsu on Sakura to be more acceptable as it is both a lesser form of taking advantage of psychological weaknesses, was administered by a superior officer as part of a test, and was not in a public setting. Kakashi may have slightly harmed Sakura but he was operating within his capacity as her teacher with her best interests and the interests of Konoha in mind rather than his self benefit. This seems like a relatively clear case of necessary harm delivered by a legitimate authority figure as part of a training exercise.
On the other hand I do admit that you may have a point regarding the differing standards of behavior in our society and the more intrinsically violent Konoha. I still think that Naruto went way overboard particularly in regard to his comments about Guy and his lacking significant accomplishments. While the "bloody" nature of ninja war may allow for a greater degree of harm in competition between comrades that same nature should lead to high ranking veterans and their accomplishments to be held in higher esteem. Even the people willing to accept a Konoha ninja taking advantage of his comrade's psychological weakness to achieve victory and pursue promotion would probably be highly offended by the manner in which the career of a high ranking veteran was disrespected.
I would also like to use the Neji vs Hinata fight as an example from canon that demonstrates that taking advantage of psychological weakness to crush the will of your opponent or otherwise humiliate them publicly can lead to public outrage. In this particular fight Naruto can be considered a stand-in for Canon!Neji while Lee replaces Canon!Hinata. It will be interesting to see if someone replaces Canon! Naruto and tries to take revenge for the mistreatment of Lee.
u/kaukamieli [+1] (a day later)
lesser form of taking advantage of psychological weaknesses
Giving a lasting trauma by showing a mangled body of someone who she has a crush on compared to talking shit about a teacher.
Now in that world the first one is important lesson, as they are child soldiers and are going to see a lot of death, but that could come with a warning too, like saying you gotta brace yourself for seeing dead bodies and showing them then as a lesson. That would be a lot nicer.
But if Lee can get so unhinged with just talking shit to him, should he even have a chance of the promotion? :s
u/CaseyAshford [+1] (a day later)
I think that you should read the rest of my post. Even putting aside the question of comparative psychological trauma I have recognized some other significant distinctions between the behavior of Kakashi and Naruto.
I would also like to add that I do believe Lee falling for the psychological manipulations of Naruto is an argument against him becoming a Chunin. My primary argument is not that Lee is a superior Chunin candidate but rather that Naruto had behaved in an inappropriate manner for a Konohan Shinobi and prospective Chunin.
u/kaukamieli [+2] (a day later)
I definitely did read the post. I'm not sure what points you mean, but I don't really see the relevance as I don't see Naruto doing anything wrong. Yes, Kakashi is their leader and a teacher and is probably allowed to whack them around and do a lot of things. The genjutsu thing was in my opinion a very not nice way to give that lesson, but it's from the canon and they of course wanted to show something else than her getting beat up too.
Konoha doesn't seem to be a samurai like honor society. I can't see how he did practically any harm with his little speech. It's not like everyone doesn't already think Gai is a weirdo and Lee clearly shows Naruto was wrong about the technique bit. Everyone who know anything also knows that Gai is world class fighter and knows all about his achievements and that he really deserves his rank. If some people in other nations don't know him and think less of him now, then he will be underestimated and it's just to his advantage.
Anyway, the rules are very broad and you are expected to use that space. If they wanted no psychological manipulation, they would have banned it before. That would of course extend to lot of genjutsu and other stuff and would make things harder for people who specialize in other things than fighting.
Naruto probably went overboard in the end, though I'm not sure if the fight would have ended without the knockout. He definitely got frustrated and got kinda played by Lee that way himself so maybe he doesn't have that big higher ground there.
So my argument is that Naruto did not behave in an inappropriate manner for Konoha Shinobi and Chunin with the mental manipulation. Being able to do that in a fight would be an asset. Konoha is also not a laalaa-land where everything is nice and rosy. They have torturers and seducers and mind-rapists and everything. Konoha is not "nice", it does what they think is necessary. Is their torture and interrogation force leader Morino Ibiki inappropriate?
It talks about Naruto's niceness, though that he apologized even before the end and all. This fic was in pause for a while and I've read so much other things so I can't talk about how nice Naruto is in the fic overall, only this act.
Naruto doesn't seem to be like in canon, though. Shounen guys are all about not listening to reason and acting like Lee here and naruto specifically seems to hate that. I expect he is gonna eat those words.
u/CaseyAshford [+1] (a day later)
This has been an interesting conversation but I guess that we will have to just agree to disagree as we both have very different perspectives on what constitutes acceptable behavior.
u/Sophronius [+1] The Need to Become Stronger (20 hours later)
Hah, I do remember you eddyeko: It's actually very rewarding to read this from you. Even though, like I said in my other post, this chapter was actually one of the first ones I wrote! I've been working back from here, deliberately making Naruto less awesome to fit with his age so he would have more room to grow. Seeing the reaction to this chapter, it seems like you're not the only one who's been waiting for this payoff. :)
(also to be clear: Since I wrote this stuff first, any instances of Naruto calling people idiots for thinking he's dumb are not veiled references to you :p )
u/TheEngineer923 [+4] (17 hours later)
I really can't wait to see what justifications the author comes up with for why "Madara" doesn't just teleport in to Konoha (Like he did in the prologue), take Kakashi's eye and using said OP abilities to kidnap Naruto and the other Jinchuriki.
Edit:He could solve the plot in less than 10 minutes.
He already awakened his Mangekyo. He already has Hashirama's cells. As soon as he would take back the eye he would manifest his own Rinnegan. Then he doesn't need Pain or the Akatsuki at all.
Yeah, I really wanna see how you handle this one author.
u/Sophronius [+6] The Need to Become Stronger (18 hours later)
There is, in fact, a really easy solution to that problem.
u/TheEngineer923 [+1] (20 hours later)
I can't wait...
u/kaukamieli [+1] (a day later)
Not sure if it would come up. Maybe if someone would ask him personally?
u/None [+1] (2 days later)
he wouldn't manifest the Rinnegan, he would need Sasukes eyes to do that and it would take years. For the Rinnegan to appear, the chakra of the reincarnations of Asura and Indra needs to be mixed.
u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+1] (a day later)
I'm confused, why did Naruto hiding under the arena mean Lee couldn't hurt him? Lee punched his way through Naruto's earth walls before, surely he can also punch the floor of the arena until it breaks apart and then beat up Naruto?
u/Sophronius [+3] The Need to Become Stronger (a day later)
There's an enormous difference between breaking down a hastily constructed (hollow) fortification, and punching straight down through solid rock or even just regular earth. With a wrecking ball you can easily smash down a building, but it's 100% useless when it comes to digging into the ground. For that you need a drill, as otherwise you just spread your force out over the entire surface of the ground.
u/kaukamieli [+1] (5 days later)
Sure would be bad for digging. But if I was underground, I'd probably hate to have the ball hit the ground above me. Can't make any relevant math, though. Point is not to get the guy out, but to hurt him.
Could just say the earth jutsu he uses shields from that or something, though. Battle wizards...
u/Sophronius [+1] The Need to Become Stronger (6 days later)
True, getting the tunnel to cave in on him would be much easier - I had originally planned a scene where Kakashi warns Naruto about that, but it went the way of so many other non-crucial scenes. Still, doing that just by punching the ground would still be far from easy, and Lee already wore himself out breaking down the earth walls.
u/CrystalShadow [+1] (a day later)
I kind of feel like this naruto should consider working smart as PART of working hard, and say as much to lee. It would be a bit more true to the original character even as it expands on it.
u/Sophronius [+1] The Need to Become Stronger (a day later)
Well, he did admit to Lee that hard work is important too - but added that you have to acknowledge reality before you can overcome it. That's pretty close to the same thing.
u/CrystalShadow [+1] (a day later)
Yeah but more of a “two sides of the same coin” type of is important too. Maybe a realization like that could be something he grows into though.
It literally is the meaning behind the “riddle” at the end of the second test too.
u/SkyTroupe [+1] (2 days later)
I always crave more chapters of this. Well done. A bit confused though. Shino isnt dead right? Gaara pierced a bug clone?
u/Sophronius [+2] The Need to Become Stronger (2 days later)
Yup! Naruto just did not know he could do that, so it was described as "shino turned into bugs and dissolved". He showed up in the last chapter as well - Naruto yelled at him for a bit and then he tried to fight Neji.