17 KiB
[RT][FF] Naruto. The Need to Become Stronger, Chapter 31: Politics and Principles
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Author: u/Sophronius The Need to Become Stronger*
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URL: https://needtobecomestronger.wordpress.com/2018/01/16/chapter-31/
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Score: 25
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Created: 2018-01-16T20:06:07
Post:
Comments:
u/sicutumbo [+9] (9 hours later)
I'm glad that this fic is updating more frequently. I don't read most of the stories posted on this sub, so it's nice to get updates on the ones I do like this and Worth the Candle.
u/Veedrac [+7] (an hour later)
Honestly I didn't think this update felt very rational. Some of the characterisations were IMO underwhelming. particularly Danzō, who felt somewhat juvenile with his outburst and lack of long-term outlook.
Now isn't the best time for me to go into detail, but given the whole "Hokage's house just got bombed", the characters seem to have put very little effort into thinking about ways to handle the situation that don't just amount to blaming Sand. Even if we ignore mechanically creative solutions, there's at least some unexplored freedom in the political approach.
u/SometimesATroll [+12] (2 hours later)
I'm assuming stuff is going on in the background to explain this behavior that Ibiki isn't aware of.
Maybe Danzo is actually acting as "opposition" under the Hokage's orders to give him plausible deniability. Let him look like a big compassionate softy while still implementing hugely unethical things like Root.
If it turns out that nothing is really going on "Underneath the Underneath," though, I'll be pretty disappointed.
u/Veedrac [+3] (2 hours later)
Danzo playing a role under the Hokage's orders wouldn't explain why everyone else was acting like this is normal and nobody else was advancing the conversation. (Of course, they could all be in on it, but then what was even the point of the meeting?)
u/None [+9] (4 hours later)
I think we are supposed to assume that Danzo and Hiruzen have been in on it together the whole time, that is, since before Hiruzen's ascension. Ibiki isn't slightly confused that the supposed genius head of the least-secret group of secret assassins in the world can't control his temper when someone he's known for years acts exactly as expected? That must mean that this has been the norm at least as long as Ibiki could parse language, to be consistent with Ibiki's character.
There's potentially a great reason to hold mock meetings during the exams: with so many specialist sensory ninja in Konoha openly that means that every single one of the council member probably has a dedicated tail. Pretending at internal unrest would be an interesting gambit, but we at least know that Ibiki isn't in on it since the narrator doesn't lie. Not to mention that they wouldn't realistically risk ad libbing it.
On that note, it's totally possible Danzo either told someone to blow up the Hokage tower and kill Hayate, or did so personally. That would be consistent with his public face as the worst schemer ever with a deep hatred of the Hokage. Unless Hayate actually arranged to be placed under the genjutsu,and it was actually performed on him days prior to muddle his thinking. There are no sufficient levels of paranoia.
EDIT - I just realized that genjutsu that fools the narrator casts everything else in doubt.
u/Alphanos [+9] The Bright Powers (4 hours later)
To continue on with excess levels of paranoia. Suppose that they hold fake council meetings demonstrating internal disputes in order to fool expected spies, like you said.
Could the head of ninja torture and interrogation possess techniques to selectively redact certain information from himself? To return on a future timer, or some kind of trigger, so that he could produce a more believable false persona or story for desired scenarios. In this case, such a self-genjutsu would further cast doubt on the account of the narrator's thoughts. Without this, it seems odd for someone charged with investigating the highest levels of subtlety to be so poor at it.
But also possible, and probably more likely: there is little reason to assume that the entire leadership structure is super-rational. Especially since many of those people gained their positions either through heredity or random circumstance (being on the same team, for the advisors).
u/None [+5] (5 hours later)
In a world where the Sharingan exists, autohypnosis of that scale would almost necessarily exist.
While it's true that we should have no expectation of anyone in a position of authority being actually competent, it is a little suspicious how Danzo is able to retain his credibility and position while being this openly hostile against the chief dictator super-ninja. It's possible that his political career was engineered by Tobirama to act as controlled opposition, but assuming that he is as dangerous as in canon I consider it likely that he's in cahoots with the Third.
u/SometimesATroll [+5] (2 hours later)
Maybe the all have individual agendas that are causing them to act strangely?
It's also possible I'm expecting way too much from this author. We'll find out as the story progresses, I guess.
u/patil-triplet [+10] (4 hours later)
I was disappointed in Danzo as well. The feeling we got from canon Danzo was a man who schemed quietly when events didn't work in his favor. He rarely was a frothing at the mouth fanatic that would act in his dis-interest blatantly.
Personally, I think a rational Danzo would accept the decision, and then insert a ROOT shinobi into the Kazekage's retinue, or just have extra ROOT surveillance. His outburst felt quite out of character.
Choza was also a curious decision. Canon Choza has shown to be a calm and composed individual, who was quite self-assured. Not, as Ibiki put it, "a useless sack of blubber". What I don't understand, is why the need to change the character. It doesn't seem necessary for the rationality of the story the way Naruto's character change was (a change I don't agree with fully, but still understandable).
u/Sophronius [+4] The Need to Become Stronger (14 hours later)
Canon Danzo was a total moron, whose every action achieved the exact opposite of what he intended. Realistically, his portrayal here is totally in line with what someone like that would actually be like.
That said, bear in mind that all of this is from Ibiki's perspective: The fact that he thinks of Choza as a sack of blubber certainly does not mean that Choza thinks of himself that way! I've always tried in this story to show how the viewpoint character's biases colour their perceptions.
That doesn't mean however that everyone in that room is going to turn out to be a secret genius mastermind, however. In fact, that's one of the tropes I hate the most in common rationalist works. In my view, the defining feature of rationalist fiction is realism, not intelligence: The kind of story where everyone has to be a secret Machiavellian schemer in order to have any moral worth is just intelligence porn, IMO.
u/patil-triplet [+6] (19 hours later)
I understand canon Danzo was a total moron. I attribute that to Kishimoto's struggles at characterization. When introduced, he had such great potential. My disappointment with Danzo isn't due to his lack of intelligence, but rather what his position represents, and the potential of his character.
Logicall speaking, every village has a man like Danzo, who does the dirty work. A hardline conservative who's fanatic about the village. I was hoping that Danzo would be a rational character, something akin to Naruto's transformation.
So, the reason I point out Choza isn't due to Ibiki's observations, but the dialogue.
Sure enough, the massive man turned to the Nara clan head sitting next to him, sweat pouring from his forehead in litres. "Ah, Shikaku. What uh, what do you think? How I should vote, I mean."
A self-confident man can still be indecisive. "Hmmm, what are your thoughts Shikaku", something along those lines. Or, are you suggesting that Ibiki is an unreliable narrator to the point that his observation of dialogue is colored?
One last question, that's been kind of burning on my mind. Why is Naruto such as asshole? He definitely comes across as one. I enjoy his plausible change in intelligence, but his cowardice in wave combined with his putdown of Lee are against the core principles of his charactered. Those are unfettered idealism supported by incredible charisma and an ironclad will. Also, he's a guy that goes, "fuck fate." Did he had to surrender that when he gained his intelligence?
Imo a rational story is characterized as this: "For every action, there'd a reaction." Which basically means all changes from canon have some motive to them, and every change taken has a reaction.
u/Sophronius [+5] The Need to Become Stronger (2 days later)
Logicall speaking, every village has a man like Danzo, who does the dirty work. A hardline conservative who's fanatic about the village.
Well, I mean, Ibiki is literally the head torturer, and he's fanatically defending the village from Danzo in this very chapter.
Just because he does not see himself as being similar to Danzo does not change the fact that he's basically exactly what you describe.
So, the reason I point out Chōzaisn't due to Ibiki's observations, but the dialogue.
All right, I'll try my hand at writing a (non-canon) segment from Chōza's point of view:
The chair creaked dangerously beneath Chōza, threatening to give way beneath his prodigious weight. A single one of its legs had sprung the moment he sat down, leading him to suspect sabotage: A deliberate effort by one of the players in the room to publicly mock him for his weight reduce his standing in the eyes of others.
But who would have done such a thing? It was not a lack of candidates that bade Chōza to wonder.
Was it Ibiki? The scarred head of torture and interrogation had been less than subtle in applying his pressure as of late, regaling him at every opportunity with stories of how he had entertained his 'guests'. However, the misshapen man also could not afford to have Chōza as an enemy. Danzo, on the other hand, would be more than happy to get Choza to give up on politics entirely - so did that mean he was the more likely suspect?
Chōza hated the uncertainty - hated not knowing, hated having to wonder who was friend and foe. He was a warrior at heart; at his best when he had his trusty comrades by his side, with Inoichi voice to guide him and Shikaku's strategy to advise him. Politics... was not for him.
But he was also a loyal ninja of Konohagakure, and he'd be damned if he let himself be distracted from his duty by this academy-level bullying.
“Very well,” the Third said, bringing Chōza back to the present. “And how does the noble Akimichi clan vote?”
The chief torturer and the secret head of Root both turned to face him with eyes cold and dead, while the Lord Hyuga turned only ever so slightly to indicate that the Byakugan was on him too. Don't let it get to you, he repeated to himself. Defer and deflect: make them think you have no agency of your own, and they'll focus their pressure on the others instead.
He scraped his throat. “Ah, Shikaku. What uh, what do you think? How I should vote, I mean.”
Ibiki gave him an almost theatrical look of disgust as he spoke the words, but he stuck by the plan: The Third and Shikaku would give him the chance to present his own, genuine opinion - that letting the Sand keep their army in the Village was madness - and the Lord Hyuga's vote would give the Third his win regardless.
The chair creaked again. With a subtle handsign he activated his body-modification technique, reshaping its legs and reinforcing it with the chakra he had been pouring into it ever since he sat down. Politics might not be his element, but if they thought they could use the Lord Akamichi's own weight against him, they had another thing coming.
Again, it's not quite canon, but hopefully it shows how you should not judge a character based on a 5-minute interaction from someone else's viewpoint.
One last question, that's been kind of burning on my mind. Why is Naruto such as asshole? He definitely comes across as one. I enjoy his plausible change in intelligence, but his cowardice in wave combined with his putdown of Lee are against the core principles of his charactered. Those are unfettered idealism supported by incredible charisma and an ironclad will. Also, he's a guy that goes, "fuck fate." Did he had to surrender that when he gained his intelligence?
Sorry, but this makes zero sense to me. Naruto, a coward? In Wave??? You mean the mission where he was the only one who advocated to selflessly defend the Villagers when the others wanted to abandon them? The Wave mission, where he overcame his own sense of terror to charge into an army of brigands? Faced off against an enemy who was so far above his level he could not even touch him? Carried a civilian on his back as he ran through the snow and ice, rather than let him die? Ran into a burning building for his sake? Nearly died for his sake, and then even when he thought he was actually dying, all he could think was that he was that maybe there was a chance for humanity after all if he and the Kyubi could come to share their feelings?
He is EXACTLY the kind of character who says "fuck fate", and both his words and actions more than show it. He is the most heroic, most selfless character in the entire story - and all of the main characters would grudgingly admit it, to themselves if not others.
The core of his character is precisely the same as in canon: Just like Sakura says, he is impulsive, childish, doesn't think before he speaks, but is also heroic and brave as all heck. The difference vs canon - and the difference vs HPMOR for that matter - is that the rest of the world doesn't go out of their way to make him look good. Events don't set themselves up so he'll have a chance to look heroic. Things don't always work out the way he wants them to, and talk-no-jutsu simply doesn't work. The end result is that people see him the same way they would see HJPEV in real life: As bratty and annoying, but with a grudging admittance that he is also smart and heroic in his own way.
In fact... speaking of the effect of different perspectives as shown with Ibiki and Choza above, perhaps the most important point is that Naruto doesn't make himself look favourable when things are written from his perspective. Precisely because he is rational, the narrator is not unreliable at all, and even goes out of its way to question his decisions. Contrast this with Sasuke's POV in Wave when the narrator was unreliable as heck, or Sakura's POV whenever Sasuke is described.
u/patil-triplet [+2] (2 days later)
First of all, before I respond, I do want to say that I enjoy your fic a lot. It's well written and your world building is excellent.
In the wave mission, I'm referring to how after Naruto convinces everyone to fight, he and his clones needed to be prodded into actually fighting, and not harrassing enemies from behind barriers.
I do see a lot of canon Naruto, but the part that bothered me was how he talked down to Hinata/Tenten/Lee. That really didn't feel like anything canon Naruto would do on any day.
Last, I unfortunately never quite liked HPMoR or HJPEV, so I can see what you're saying. Keep up the good work though, and I look forward to the next chapter.
u/sicutumbo [+2] (a day later)
One last question, that's been kind of burning on my mind. Why is Naruto such as asshole? He definitely comes across as one. I enjoy his plausible change in intelligence, but his cowardice in wave combined with his putdown of Lee are against the core principles of his charactered. Those are unfettered idealism supported by incredible charisma and an ironclad will.
He's an edgy 12 year old that thinks he's smarter than everyone else? And is also enamored with being logical over "stupid emotions"?
u/eltegid [+1] (21 hours later)
Since canon Danzo ordered Itachi to massacre the Uchiha, I thought that maybe he is in on it here, trying to provoke a war to keep konoha strong or something like that.
Either that or he really feels that strongly about this, which would make sense to me.
u/SkyTroupe [+1] (3 days later)
I'm hoping Danzo has a plan for that little outburst. Otherwise it's extremely OOC for a competent ninja to act that way, especially for someone that is a schemer. You actually made me sympathize for Danzo's argument though. Good job doing that. Ive never actually agreed with him in a fic before.
Question, is the Lady Chiyo feat with Tanzuka Castle from the Manga or will it be expounded upon in story?
Edit: Is it possible that he's already been compromised by whoever tried to assassinate hiruzen? Or he might be the one who tried and then used this to throw off suspicion from himself?