16 KiB
[RT][FF] Naruto. The Need to Become Stronger, Chapter 32: Pride and Purpose
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Author: u/Sophronius The Need to Become Stronger*
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URL: https://needtobecomestronger.wordpress.com/2018/01/21/chapter-32/
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Score: 33
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Created: 2018-01-21T17:31:36
Post:
Comments:
u/None [+11] (an hour later)
I find myself liking this version of Naruto more and more; if the Nara actually do have a super duper thinking technique (maybe some kind of Yin chakra manipulation?) it would be perhaps the most badass characterization of the clan ever to be seen in fanfiction. And it would make the whole Ino-Shika-Cho combo even more powerful. Even if the Nara would have to be stationary to use their technique, it wouldn't matter; the Yamanaka could just read their minds and relay to their allies and victory would practically be assured.
Though I always wondered; isn't super fast thinking an ability all ninja would have to have? I mean, at least from what I remember from the anime, you simply cannot fight as fast as they do with reflexes alone; you gotta be percieving things slower as well. Maybe Asuma didn't think the Nara thingy is a technique because there actually is a technique that makes your brain run faster, but it doesn't make you any smarter?
u/Sophronius [+10] The Need to Become Stronger (15 hours later)
Your observation is correct! If you check back on e.g. Sasuke's fight with Temari, you'll see that the world 'slows down around him' whenever he flares his chakra. This is in fact the result of chakra enhancing his senses and speed of thought.
However, what Asuma observes in Shikamaru is A) way beyond that, and B) he doesn't appear to be flaring his chakra to do it. But your thinking is definitely on the right track :)
u/None [+6] (21 hours later)
I'm just wondering; if things like the Yakamana telepathy and Nara shadow stuf / potential speed thinking aren't bloodlines, then how do they maintain secrecy?
I mean, Ino can use her clan techniques, so she knows the necessary secrets. So wouldn't enemy shinobi make it a priority to capture young Yakamana like her? Because once they get the secret, they'll get it forever, won't they? Even if they eventually have to ransom her back, they'll have it.
Or do young clan members like Ino and Shikamaru, despite being able to use the abilities, not actually know how they work somehow? Is it more like the Aburame implanting bugs; something done to you when you're young that you have to spend your entire childhood learning to use, so that even if enemy shinobi learned how it wouldn't be like implanting a third arm; simply impossible to learn how to use effectively?
Because I just realized that if all these secret techniques aren't bloodlines or similarily restricted, then wouldn't Naruto could potentially end fighting a gigantic (Akimichi), super fast thinking shadow using (Nara), telepathic (Yakamana) Madara. Because Tsukuyomi (and genjutsu in general) really must be an incredibly affective away to torture bloodline secrets out of somebody.
Actually I wouldn't mind that. I can't imagine anything more awesome than a telepathic collective of giant Naruto's using their massive shadows and incredible planning abilities to take out entire armies XD.
u/Sophronius [+5] The Need to Become Stronger (22 hours later)
Good points, all of which I'm planning to address in a future chapter, since Naruto is certainly having these same thoughts.
The biggest part of the answer is that all ninja techniques have a mental component. Just as Naruto told Mizuki, he can't actually learn e.g. the shadow clone technique because you need A) huge chakra reserves and B) you have to be able to mentally split your thoughts into two streams of consciousness to create the clone in the first place - something which is incredibly difficult to do.
The other part of the answer is the secrecy aspect: Basically, there are far fewer actual bloodline limits than people think, because people like Shikamaru lie their pants off about what they can do (he's probably not thankful to Naruto for just blurting the truth out like that), precisely to prevent people from figuring that stuff out.
So it's only the smartest people like Itachi who figure out stuff like explosion release and become incredibly strong as a result - and being ninjas, they don't share this realization with anybody else.
u/patil-triplet [+5] (23 hours later)
Don't think this has been addressed yet, but I really liked what you did with Temari's character. She's so interesting since she's the oldest of the 3, and probably remembers her mother and father. The fan being passed down was a nice touch.
u/SkyTroupe [+4] (3 hours later)
So is there any reason why Shino gave up the match and didn't kill Neji? He had the complete upper hand. It kind of defies logic and brings us firmly out of rationalist territory. The only reason that should have happened was for plot.
u/None [+14] (3 hours later)
Well I can't imagine a character consistent version of the Shino we saw, who was shown to care so much about the 'greater good of the whole' and all that Aburame jazz, actually killing another Konoha ninja. That would be, in his eyes, like a drone killing another drone; maybe it would feel good personally, but I think killing another Konoha ninja (damaging the greater whole he belongs to), clashes to too strongly with his ethics to be considered.
And so long as the story sticks with this (maybe there are consequences for all the Aburame having such a point of view), I think it could still be rational.
u/CaseyAshford [+10] (5 hours later)
I agree with the above post but I also think that Shino was being considerate of Hinata's feelings. She does not seem like the type of person who would appreciate someone being killed in her name and still considers Neji a family member.
u/SkyTroupe [+3] (23 hours later)
I CAN understand the not killing Neji part. I cant understand the forfeiting the match part. Shino had every advantage over Neji and had only been shown to take one hit, while Neji only scraped by in not dying against superior tactics. The author replied below saying Shino was an unreliable narrator but we had no examples of that previous to this chapter to indicate such. Therefore as I was reading I was forced to take things at face value. With the story presented as is, the only logical conclusion was that Shino should have won. To randomly say he was an unreliable narrator and not provide reasons or clues as to why immediately rips this out of rationalist fiction.
This is all presuming my basis of understanding rstionalist fiction as "a story in which, using all evidence provided, gices you the chance of figuring out how it (or a scene) is going to end.
u/Sophronius [+3] The Need to Become Stronger (a day later)
No no, Shino is not an unreliable narrator - I meant that the scene is not written from his perspective, so you can't tell what he's thinking. This is a fight scene written from the perspective of a spectator, unlike previous fights, and so I meant to realistically show that just like in any other spectator sport, you're not going to know what is going on in the participant's heads.
But, it is entirely possible I should still have foreshadowed that the fight would end like this, and I might still end up adding a line about how shino's insects are nearly all dead at this point to make it less confusing for the reader.
u/eltegid [+8] (13 hours later)
Do you seriously believe that killing is the only rational choice in that situation? I can think of at least three or four rational reasons why Shino wouldn't kill Neji.
u/SkyTroupe [+6] (13 hours later)
Nah, I just don't think he should have forfeited. He had every possible advantage.
u/Sophronius [+4] The Need to Become Stronger (15 hours later)
Did he? He already lost a huge chunk of his insects to Neji's rotation. Neji had just shown that he could escape Shino's wire/explosive trick, AND that he could defeat him in melee despite Shino's reach advantage.
Now, it's entirely possible that Shino could still have pulled something out of his hat even if it killed all his bugs to do so, but I wanted to show that he is a true shinobi: Like Naruto said, he's the type of guy you have to actively remember exists. He's not going to take the chance of one of them getting seriously hurt just to stay in the limelight. So this is, in fact, Shino's own brand of rationality you're seeing.
u/SkyTroupe [+6] (16 hours later)
I'm sorry but it didn't feel like there was any chance of Shino even getting remotely injured while fighting Neji. If you meant to show that I did not see it. You only have one instance of Shino being hit by Neji, and that's when he's using his ultimate defensive technique.
Furthermore
The beetle flew at Neji, dipping and straining under the weight of its burden, yet drawing ever closer nonetheless. Neji tore at his bonds with increasing desperation, shouting, screaming as his death approached ever faster until at last he tore one bleeding arm free and thrust his palm towards the insect. There was an eruption of air as an invisible force struck the beetle right as the explosion went off, scattering dead insects and broken wire in every direction. Neji was left standing in the debris, his breathing ragged and his eyes frantic as he searched for his enemy.
“We each must have our purpose,” Shino concluded, as he gathered up his weapons and sheathed them within his robes. “If we lose the one given to us, we must discover ourselves anew. However, you are correct on one count: The way you are now, your life is indeed worth less to me than even a single one of my insects.” He turned to face the examiner. “I forfeit the match.”
Shino doesnt seem wounded, tired, or even fazed by his opponent. While just a paragraph earlier you had Neji and the reader absolutely on edge thinking Neji was going to die. It's just such a sudden reversal with no agency on Neji's part. He does nothing except barely manage to not get blown up and he wins? That doesnt make sense. That's just plot force working for Neji.
I really do enjoy this story quite a bit but that was just incredibly jarring compared to all of the other fights you've had us seen. It's like you completely switched writing styles for the last paragraph.
u/Sophronius [+8] The Need to Become Stronger (17 hours later)
Hm, okay, I get what you mean. I think this is the same issue that people have with Naruto not being 'rational' enough: By any objective measure he's really smart, but the narrative doesn't always make the reader feel that way. Similarly, in Shino's fight he was rapidly running out of resources, but the narrative made him seem dominant up until that point, so I guess it feels weird.
Maybe this was a mistake on my part, but I actually made the deliberate decision to make the narrative unreliable in that regard: To show the reader that they should mistrust their own feelings by having events turn out differently from how it feels they ought to - just like in real life. After all, it's only in stories that you can exactly tell why things happen the way they do. But maybe it's actually just jarring and feels off, at least to some readers.
u/avret [+9] SDHS rationalist (21 hours later)
There's a quote from a reviewer of an entirely different piece of media that I think is relevant here, though I'm paraphrasing: "The author of a story has an incredible amount of power, to determine what it is their reader experiences and feels. That power is contingent upon building a rapport and connection with the reader, and the reader trusting what they're given. Breaking that trust must be done sparingly, lest the rapport be broken entirely." Unreliable narrative might make readers mistrust their own feelings, but it also makes every other event far less emotionally impactful and reduces our ability to care about and even follow the events of the book--it's one thing to have a consistently inaccurate narrative i.e. based on one character's biases-that we can correct for. But something this jarring means that we can't e.g. follow the tactical paths of fights and basically have to wait til you tell us who wins. To take an extreme example, in the sasuke/temari fight, based on the paradigm established with Shino, Sasuke could well have randomly run out of chakra and lost the match with minimal warning. See the issue?
u/Sophronius [+5] The Need to Become Stronger (22 hours later)
Ah, but the fight between Sasuke and Temari was written from his perspective, so that could never have happened. What can and what did happen however is that Temari shields her fan with her own body because it's precious to her - that was foreshadowed a tiny bit with her comments from earlier, but the reader could not actually have known that would happen.
And I don't think that's necessarily a problem. Some things should be predictable, certainly, like all the major plot elements of the story. But I also think that any rationalist story should have surprises, because it's simply not realistic for everything to happen exactly the way you suspect. Otherwise you get fake, Sherlock Holmes type rationality, where the characters can perfectly predict everything because they live in a world without fundamental uncertainty. That teaches the wrong lesson, I think, and that's what I wanted to avoid.
u/Veedrac [+3] (a day later)
I really like this aspect of the story FWIW.
u/sicutumbo [+2] (6 days later)
This is a few days late, but I read it as Shino already having shown the qualities to be promoted to Chunin, and didn't care about the pride aspect of winning the tournament, so he decided to forfeit so that he wouldn't risk fighting a much stronger opponent. Neji is wounded, and could very well die, but Shino doesn't care.
I think the problem with your objective of showing that we should second guess what we're seeing is that we don't actually get confirmation of why Shino did what he did. It's one thing to make it look like Shino was winning but was actually burning resources in an unsustainable way. However, we don't get shown that explicitly. Shino lost bugs, but we don't know precisely how many, and insects can multiply quickly. He doesn't seem to have used much chakra. So as it is, he basically gave a short speech and forfeited for cryptic reasons.
u/5FOOT6MUSHROOMHEAD [+4] (14 hours later)
Will naruto reach harry from HPMOR level of intelligence?
u/Sophronius [+5] The Need to Become Stronger (15 hours later)
Well, he'll never have Harry's level of science-fu, if only for the simple reason that Eliezer knows way more science than I do. That said, he could definitely eclipse HJPEV in terms of general rationality, seeing how Harry in that story had some giant biases that caused him to do some very stupid things.
u/tokol [+1] The Greater Good (a day later)
Typos:
The Hyūga shoved a bundle of papers into Naturo’s hands.
Naturo's -> Naruto's
a copy of your waiving form
waiving -> waiver
u/Sophronius [+1] The Need to Become Stronger (6 days later)
Thanks, fixed!