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[D] Wednesday Worldbuilding Thread

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• URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/7sno4d/d_wednesday_worldbuilding_thread/

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• Created: 2018-01-24T15:06:57

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Welcome to the Wednesday thread for worldbuilding discussions!

/r/rational is focussed on rational and rationalist fiction, so we don't usually allow discussion of scenarios or worldbuilding unless there's finished chapters involved (see the sidebar). It is pretty fun to cut loose with a likeminded community though, so this is our regular chance to:

• Plan out a new story
• Discuss how to escape a supervillian lair... or build a perfect prison
• Poke holes in a popular setting (without writing fanfic)
• Test your idea of how to rational-ify Alice in Wonderland

Or generally work through the problems of a fictional world.

^(Non-fiction should probably go in the Friday Off-topic thread, or Monday General Rationality)

Comments:

u/alexanderwales [+3] Time flies like an arrow (2 hours later)

I finally have a worldbuilding document for my "the world is full of animals moving through the desert with worlds on their back" D&D campaign, on Google Docs here. (I'm not really seeking input, just sharing.)

u/genericaccounter [+3] (8 hours later)

I would like people's opinion on the following world building questions. In this particular world magic does not play nice with electricity. Specifically if the magic field interacts with electricity then it will cease to be ethereal and begin to become capable of maintaining two way interactions with physical parts, ruining delicate electrical parts. The stronger the magical field the weaker the electrical field needs to be. While this has many effects, such as the phenomena known as magic poisoning as it tears up your nerves, one major side effect is causing electrical devices to become impractical. Even in low magic regions this is a problem as a temporary thick spot forms. Therefore, in order to avoid this the people make use of magical solutions to most problems, but the one this post is about is computers. These people have started using mechanical computers to perform calculations. In order to compensate for the slow speed they have begun to use temporal acceleration to help. So the question is, what would be the downside of using purely mechanical computers? Secondly, my current thoughts about question one is that it would restrict the amount of memory and complexity of programs you can run as well as reducing the speed of human interaction quite significantly. So what sort of things could and could not be done with simple programs with limited memory, but unlimited time to work? I'm reasonably certain that many things that we have accomplished with modern computers are not merely the result of increased speed and are instead the result of increased complexity such as the modern improvements to AI. Would spaceflight be possible and if not what are the computationally expensive parts of spaceflight so I can consider magic solutions? Tldr What could be achieved with mechanical computers? P.S I have very little computing experience. About the limits on mine are having watched crash course computers

u/CCC_037 [+3] (10 hours later)

In theory, any calculation you can perform on an electronic computer, you can also perform on a mechanical one. (This is the same 'in theory' that states that any calculation that can be performed by a computer can also be done with pencil and paper - it says nothing about how long it will take to calculate).

In practice, the major advantage of electronics is that you can fit an awful lot of computer in a very small space. Mechanical computers are going to be significantly bigger, and at the same time require some incredibly tiny and delicate parts. There will be trouble if dust gets in, or if a part deep in the machine breaks, or if a part is made slightly unevenly. So, we're probably talking a room-sized computer or so here.

So what sort of things could and could not be done with simple programs with limited memory, but unlimited time to work?

A lot more could be done than you might think. In general, there's a tradeoff between time and memory - by giving unlimited time, you're allowing most of the problems of limited memory to be avoided by sufficiently devious programmers. (Modern computers tend to optimise for time over memory, so the default solutions to certain problems will change).

u/genericaccounter [+1] (22 hours later)

After further consideration several problems can be seen. Firstly is the problem of wear and tear. It would be nice to run the computer at such a high temporal acceleration that every second is a thousand years. However in such a scenario if you replaced every part every hour, it would still need to be capable of lasting 3.6 million years. So in a more reasonable estimate if it had the computing power of a modern computer ( Taken as 63 Gflops after a quick google)( This still seems a bit high but with incentive to perfect the technology and magical aid it may be doable) and could be replaced once every year which seems expensive, and a acceleration of one thousand times could be maintained throughout then it would have computing power approximating one thousandth of modern supercomputers which again a quick google places in the pettaflop range. Secondly would be entropy. As the second law of thermodynamics states the amount of unusable energy in a closed system increases towards maximum. Due to the temporal bubble having restricted access to prevent needing to consider all the possible ramifications of things that exist on the edge, it certainly qualifies. Due to larger, less energy efficient systems it would require some means of having more energy input and waste heat being output. My current plan to solve this problem is to have the most powerful of these computers placed in close orbit to the sun where they could dip into the sun for power. Waste heat could then be vented into space as a plume of superheated plasma or vented back into the sun. This would also provide a solution to materials. The sun apparently contains a fair bit of metal which could be sifted out for parts by sifting spells. Failing a sufficient density of metal for that hydrogen could be compressed and fused into heavier elements. I am unsure if this would be necessary to supply the needed power, but it would look awesome and is likely to be done anyway for other high energy processes.
The third issue is interactivity. Given the system is held under very high acceleration it would be difficult to interact with it once it was started up. I predict that this would lead to low acceleration computers used for day to day uses with high acceleration computers used for purposes such as computationally expensive simulations.
These are the problems that have arisen so far in my ponderings. More details will be known as the magic system is hammered down and the matter is considered. The primary motivation for doing things like this with magic interacting badly with electricity is it permits me to write a alternate tech tree that I find more interesting and also permits a massive reduction in the likelihood of super intelligent AI. While many things can be said about the singularity, you cannot deny it would make writing a civilisation past it difficult and this lets humans remain relevant, even reducing automation.

u/CCC_037 [+1] (a day later)

As the second law of thermodynamics states the amount of unusable energy in a closed system increases towards maximum. Due to the temporal bubble having restricted access to prevent needing to consider all the possible ramifications of things that exist on the edge, it certainly qualifies. Due to larger, less energy efficient systems it would require some means of having more energy input and waste heat being output.

This can all be handwaved away by having the edge of the bubble permeable to electromagnetic radiation coming out and magic ging in (but not matter in either direction). Sure, the waste heat is going to come out of there as gamma rays, but there's a spell to deal with radiation, right?

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (7 hours later)

Urban fantasy!

Around the year 1600, I have a big disaster with vampires going from a population of, say, 100,000 to 800. The main reasoning behind this is vampire mythology didn't appear until around the year 1700, so having something Big happen in the vampire world around 1700 is a good way to have an in-universe justification for vampires being thousands of years old but mythology being far more recent.

For some reason I ended up settling on the Catastrophe likely being because some vampire almost managed to take over the world and kill all his rivals (i.e. War). Vague religious / purity / generic "save the world from evil vampire" justifications have been trotted out, but it's kind of hard to put a Bad Guy in history who basically almost succeeded in committing genocide and at the same time think of a "reasonable justification".

But, why... why can't it just be a Plague that only affects vampires? I don't need to justify how William (my main vampire) survived it, since the anthropic principle means I'm not going to be writing romance stories about vampires who didn't. The problem with Plague vs War is that a Plague would probably mean that all William's friends from Before were dead, whereas a War, if William had good connections and ended up with, say, a spot in a bunker safe from danger, it would make sense that he'd have quite a few friends from Before. But I've only committed to giving him ONE friend from Before, and if I don't give him any more, he can just have been lucky enough to have kept one friend (and they might even have drifted apart until after the Plague).

I imagine that after the Catastrophe, whatever it was, the 800 vampires would have met together, become friends, etc anyway. I mean they would have kind of had to to maintain their social order.

The other thing that is worse about a plague than a War is that I wanted the Catastrophe to happen around 1700 in e.g. Romania. A War can happen in one place; a Plague is by definition universal. I suppose I can make the vampires have a meeting, post-Plague, and for whatever reason the meeting was in Romania (perhaps it had an unusually high concentration of survivors?). Or the Plague starting in Romania, so the first affected vampires didn't have a "cover-up" plan like was developed later; vampire symptoms of disease could be like what people report corpses "with vampirism" today have (bloody mouths/etc). I'm a bit uneasy about it having a cure that was dispensed to people as in that time sharing a cure would be very slow and you'd end up with a racial disparity, and I don't want to give my vampires any more reason to be super white.

Big problem with the Plague: this will never be covered in-story so maybe isn't relevant, but vampires "under the hood" work based on nanites. So I suppose the Plague could be some sort of virus that causes the nanites to shut down; or just a regular "human" disease that the nanites aren't able to identify and shut off. (I mean, since vampires don't get poisoned periodically, their nanites can presumably fix prion diseases!). Although the whole nanite thing I'm not even going to TRY to touch with a ten-foot pole, I like to make sure that in my head it all makes sense so the worldbuilding has a consistent basis to rest on.

Anyway, thoughts on Plague vs War? Plague also has a lot of angst because it could happen again and they're not sure what caused it in the first place.

u/CCC_037 [+5] (10 hours later)

Your vampires tend to be fairly isolationist, do they not? How would a plague spread through the vampire population, exactly, when they're spaced out around the world and any one can avoid it by shutting himself away with his thralls and not letting any other vampires in?

u/MagicWeasel [+3] Cheela Astronaut (10 hours later)

Ah, you're right, that's the problem! Plague needs a vector to spread. Whereas a war makes its own vector (but then you ask: how could a suitably isolationist vampire not hide on a tiny pacific island until everything blew over? and then do I really want my 800 survivors to be disproportionately full of those hidden survivor types?)

Then again, it could just be airborne - but that puts a big tax on AIRborne if we're talking about it going across oceans. Human plagues don't do that. Have it airborne and spread by humans - but then you still have the same problem.

To get around the problem you need it to, say, have an incubation period of 200 years or so. Have it be a small contagious defect in the way the nanites (or proteins in cells, or whatever: no need to get specific) replicate. Because vampires grow so slowly, it takes a long time for this defect to be widespread enough in the vampire population. The defect is airborne (though vampires don't need to breathe, they do need to use their lungs to talk, and they feed through their lungs, so crap definitely can get there. In feeding they deposit stuff into the human bloodstream, so they can also infect humans they feed from). By the time people start dying from it, everyone has it; the young vampires are made from seed blood from their Maker, so proportionally speaking they will be as infected by the disease as their Maker was.

This has different connotations depending on the action of the Plague - are certain individual vampires just immune (thanks to something about their human DNA), or is it something about the "line" of their nanites (i.e. they have good antivirus or whatever). If the former then that gives me what I want but maybe makes less sense; the latter could be interesting as all the living vampires would be from one "dynasty" or another, and you end up with vampires who know each other and are grouped into a few loose factions. It doesn't cause much of a racial disparity as Making a vampire doesn't follow racial lines in the same way, and the lines can be very spread out (i.e. maybe all vampires who survived the Plague were the descendants of one Very Healthy vampire who Made a bunch of vampires c. 10,000 BCE - they'd be spread all over the planet in a few centuries).

I think I like the idea of the plague survivors being from "family lines", but they'd also have to be the "luckiest" people from them, probably? Hmm.

The plague winnowing the vampire population over a century or two is no big deal, so that's fine.

The big problem is, does that change the culture? Do the vampires know how it was spread? Would they institute a variety of anti-plague measures as a matter of course even if they didn't know how it was spread? Did vampires accept germ theory c. 1700? (It was first proposed in the Western world c. 1550 and accepted c. 1850). This could be an issue as I have vampires sharing feeding vessels - though that's easy to fix. Then again - even though we know not to share cups, we still do. And vampires are at even less risk from sharing humans than we are sharing cups, given how this plague is the only one of its kind in undead memory. So maybe they'd add a few superstitions - killing any humans a dead vampire fed on, ritual cleaning of this or that - but continue life as normal.

u/CCC_037 [+4] (12 hours later)

Your isolationist vampire on a tiny pacific island is well insulated against both war and plague. If the war is one of complete extermination, however, and the aggressors have some form of vampire-locating magic, then 'isolationist vampire' might just be another way of saying 'easy target'; and perhaps the only survivors are a group of vampires who got together for the purpose of mutual defence (in which case they'd all know each other, hving once fought together).

---

On the plague side, on the other hand, one possibility is the Y2K bug writ large - that the vampire nanites were never intended to last quite that long, and when their date counter rolled over, the nanites reset themselves; which worked out to 'shut down' except for one particular nanite line, which either (a) successfully rebooted or (b) due to an ancient bug, stopped incrementing the time counter a few thousand years before the time bug hit, thus never triggered it. This way, it doesn't matter what the vampire did, they were all equally vulnerable - and the survivors have probably never worked out what it was, either, and have no idea how to prevent it from happening again. (Worse, all the vampires who did die did so near-simultaneously and with no warning).

u/MagicWeasel [+5] Cheela Astronaut (12 hours later)

Oh, I loove the Y2K bug writ large. Especially the thought of everyone just dying almost at once. They'd have to conclude it was magic.

And hey, if I do decide to turf the nanites handwavium for vampires, a magic spell that was cast to kill all vampires (which some happened to be immune to) is a feasible alternative.

I just want to post this link to the next Y2K problem that's going to have everyone freaking out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem

u/CCC_037 [+3] (12 hours later)

Not just magic - but magic of which the caster was never identified. (Unless someone was convicted through circumstantial evidence, or even framed in an attempt to calm down all the angry vampires by executing him).

I just want to post this link to the next Y2K problem that's going to have everyone freaking out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem

Yep. If you're really unlucky, there might be ten minutes during 2038 when your microwave won't work, and your cellphone might give issues as well (but by then cellphones should really be using 64-bit everything).

u/MagicWeasel [+3] Cheela Astronaut (12 hours later)

Not just magic - but magic of which the caster was never identified. (Unless someone was convicted through circumstantial evidence, or even framed in an attempt to calm down all the angry vampires by executing him)

Well let's just let that marinate.... that does explain why Cassius is trying to breed super predictors: he wants to know if this is going to happen again and how he can stop it.

They are also probably going to know that they're all related to each other, which might make them point fingers at one another: so War could break out too.

We just bought a new microwave! I should have made sure it was Y2038 compliant!

(Instead we got an inverter with NO TURNTABLE I am so excited and confused by this)

u/CCC_037 [+2] (12 hours later)

You would have made the salesman go crosseyed and then promise you that you would have no problems. (Besides, it's out of warranty by then, in all likelihood).

u/CCC_037 [+2] (a day later)

Well let's just let that marinate.... that does explain why Cassius is trying to breed super predictors: he wants to know if this is going to happen again and how he can stop it.

Maybe he doesn't want to know how to stop it as much as he wants to know how to guide it.

They are also probably going to know that they're all related to each other, which might make them point fingers at one another: so War could break out too.

The one with the greatest interest in them all going well is likely their Youngest Common Ancestor - that is, the vampire whose nanites first developed an immunity (however that was done). One has to wonder whether or not he survived the anger of his children.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a day later)

The one with the greatest interest in them all going well is likely their Youngest Common Ancestor - that is, the vampire whose nanites first developed an immunity (however that was done). One has to wonder whether or not he survived the anger of his children.

I imagine this vampire living some 20,000 BCE, and being long-dead. The living vampires know they come from, say, half a dozen bloodlines because they can't trace everything back quite that far.

The problem is - when I use the average vampire growth rate I calculated for 800 vamps in 1700 to become 20,000 vamps in 1900, one vampire takes only 415 years to become 800 vampires. So there's no way that a single bloodline could leave only 800 vampires alive, unless the growth rate was much lower in antiquity (it probably was: doing some quick maffs, the vampire population/human population goes from 1.2e-6 in 1700 to 1.2e-5 in 1900 to 1.6e-5 in 2000 - this sort of growth in % is unsustainable).

So... let me estimate the vampire population in 600, when William was turned (using 2e-5 as the ratio): about 4,000 vampires. 1 AD has 3,400 vampires. Same ratios give 1700 pre-Catastrophe numbers at 12,000; this means that, with 800 survivors, we're looking at about 95% of vampires being killed. It seems like a Big Scary Catastrophe, but with a high enough proportion of survivors that most vampires are going to have a couple of friends living (if 95% of your friends died, you'd probably have one or (if very lucky) two good friends left and maybe 2-3 people you liked well enough to become good friends with when all other options are dead). So that actually works out quite well.

Great, now I'm sanity checking my growth rate for vampires: the vampire growth rate is equivalent to the massive growth rate of the world population in the 1940s-present day, which basically makes the average vampire make two children a century. Plugging in the pre-industrial human growth rate makes there be only 4,000 vampires in the present day, so the 800 survivors would be a huge demographic chunk (by comparison the "baby boom" growth rate gives 20,000 vampires in 1900 and 100,000 in 2000, which makes the Old Ones a lot more special!).

So ANYWAY, back to what I was trying to do originally: the 800 vampires are 5% of the vampires living in 1700. So that requires 20 vampires-that-left-descendents to be alive whenever Nanite Eve was alive, on average. The thought of Eve being one of 20 "successful progenitors" say 10,000 BCE is not a huge reach in terms of their prominence. I think norms around vampire reproduction probably changed after the Catastrophe too - I have one character with the title "Progenitor of the Wang line" because I imagine that some vampires would have created "lines" of children afterwards in an attempt to rally the troops, so to speak.

So yeah... you probably don't need much of a war for all these numbers to work out, is what I'm concluding!

u/CCC_037 [+3] (a day later)

The problem is - when I use the average vampire growth rate I calculated for 800 vamps in 1700 to become 20,000 vamps in 1900, one vampire takes only 415 years to become 800 vampires. So there's no way that a single bloodline could leave only 800 vampires alive,

Or unless the mutation happened only 415 years before the Catastrophe. (It doesn't have to start with the official founder of the bloodline).

It's worth bearing in mind that, before the Catastrophe, the vampire population was probably in equilibrium - the amount of new vampires being equal to those who died. Now, since there's not much that kills a vampire, this equilibrium could well have been artificial - that is, the planet was divided (by the vampires) into a group of territories, one per vampire, and all vampires were expected to only turn a child vampire if there was an empty territory for that child vampire to claim. (If there were no empty territories, vampires were not above the idea of emptying a territory belonging to someone they didn't much like - which is why alliances were so important, especially to young vampires). And the territories were likely small enough that it was impractical for two vampires to survive in a single territory.

This way, the youngest (and thus weakest) vampires would have been at the greatest risk, and there would be quite a few Especially Ancient vampires hanging about the place, being generally pretty near invulnerable thanks to their great experience.

Of course, this whole 'limited territory' business would go out the window after the Catastrophe, but the entire careful-complicated-diplomacy aspect of it (in which vampires were especially careful not to annoy other vampires) might hang on.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a day later)

Yeah, that's my logic behind calculating the vampires as % of the human population; the vampire population would be in equilibrium with the human population, as new territories would be made when prey got too numerous.

Careful diplomacy is exactly what the story does! Here's an interlude - I may have shown it to you before, but hey. It does have your namesake character in it! (Originally it had an irrelevant character but then I realised it's better if Cassius is introduced early as someone William is on friendly terms with. Allows me to set up stuff that happens later, too).

(Later on, William agrees to give one of Cassius' allies a territory in the future because a new town - Kalgoorlie if you're counting - has sprung up after a gold rush in the last thirty years or so.)

---

William folded a towel. Do you know where I might get information about any nearby Americans? Asked the angles of the creases.

Cassius sprinkled water onto it. What sort of information are you after? Replied the arrangement of the droplets.

I have found a human I want to serve me. William replied by adjusting his tie, his left hand in front as his right tightened the knot. It was the left hand that indicated service and the right hand’s action that spoke of personal service to him. Had he then gestured outward, the act would have suggested, instead, service to Cassius.

He trusted Cassius to fill in the gaps with pre existing information: had this been about a fellow vampire, his approach would have been entirely different, so there was a mortal American whose services he wished to obtain.

Cassius laughed. “You mean a human you wish to have served to you.” He couldn’t resist the pun. He knew William was one of many who did not keep human servants for longer than a year or two before getting bored of them. Or just particularly hungry.

William narrowed his eyes slightly. Cassius was his elder and had something he wanted, so he had to accept some poor decorum. But William’s manners were beyond reproach. He grabbed a rose from the table, and expertly pulled out its petals one at a time, deciding to be direct.* It is your hotel. You must know about that night porter. Is he one of yours?* He arranged the petals on the table into a kolam of sorts.

“Do you not think I can control myself, that you refuse to speak to me?”

“I think you are being rude, your majesty. I am asking you a simple question.”

“I do know who you are talking about. I found him interesting, too. That’s why he works at my hotel.”

“He is one of yours?”

“I considered it. But I have too many. Do you want him?”

“Yes.”

Cassius laughed. “It’s a pity. He’s not an ordinary human. I fear you’ll ruin him when you get hungry or bored.”

William frowned, and picked up the rose petals. I won’t ruin him. I can control myself.

Hee laughed again, and retrieved the towel. I don’t believe you. You are aware of your reputation. The way he picked it up spelled out the retort. Left hand, picked up from the centre. He elaborated with some careful folds. You don’t remember. They are impossible.

“I will have him, with your blessing, your majesty.”

He grinned. “Now who is being rude?” But William knew that meant the American was his.

“Will you tell me where he came from?”

“I expect this favour to be repaid.”

“Naturally, your majesty.”

u/CCC_037 [+2] (a day later)

Yay for Cassius!

Some comments seem appropriate, though.

William narrowed his eyes slightly.

The two of them have just been communicating through the creases in a towel, and the twitches of William's fingers as he adjusts his tie. How is a facial motion like this not an entire sentence of its own? (Probably Vampire for I will kill you in your sleep, too).

“I think you are being rude, your majesty. I am asking you a simple question.”

I've noticed this trend in your writing before - this is not an inferior talking to a superior. This is two near-social-equals having a chat, and about something which William expects to be truly inconsequential to Cassius at that.

Which means you're getting the 'friendly terms' thing down well, at least.

Hee laughed again, and retrieved the towel. I don’t believe you. You are aware of your reputation. The way he picked it up spelled out the retort. Left hand, picked up from the centre. He elaborated with some careful folds. You don’t remember. They are impossible.

There's a really impressive amount of information being exchanged here, in a few simple actions. Not impossible - especially if things like Cassius' facial expression while he's moving, or his precise finger motions, play into the gesture in important ways - but it's probably important to bear in mind that it's going to be very hard for any gesture, no matter how elaborate, to transmit information faster than the spoken word.

Consider the towel retort, for example. Ten words. A bit of poking around on Google suggests that ordinary English has an entropy which can be rounded off to about ten bits a word; so, that phrase is maybe a hundred bits of information.

Left vs. right hand is one bit. Picking it up from the centre - let's assume the towel can be picked up from anywhere in a sixteen-by-sixteen grid. That's 256 locations - another eight bits. Let's say another ten bits per hand in finger positions, and... hmmm. Another ten bits each for facial expression and stance. (I'm trying to err on the side of generosity here) This comes up to about forty-nine bits... out of a hundred.

This can be enhanced, to some degree, by having towel-related actions already have their own implication (as opposed to, say, rose-related actions); adding more bits of meaning. But it's definitely starting to look as if Cassius is going to need to readjust his finger positions several times to get enough information for a phrase like that into his gesture.

I mean - a secondary language based entirely on minor gestures is a pretty cool thing to have, and I can see plenty of good reasons to include it. But what you have presented here comes across as implausibly high-bandwidth communication.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a day later)

Thanks for the analysis! I think you're right about the towel thing, and I probably should think more about bits - gwern's analysis of death note anonymity really comes into the forefront of my mind here. I will simplify the implied dialogue, though I should say that context means a lot here: William is temporarily in town, Cassius owns a hotel William is staying at, Cassius had Red (the love interest) hired because of his random "communicates in vampire language" quirk, and Cassius probably knows that William would see a lot of Red due to the timing of Red's shifts. (Truthfully, Cassius probably hired Red and put him at work as the night porter because some vampire guest would be interested in him sometime and would then owe him a favour for poaching his territory: so this situation worked out well for him)

I don't believe you

The word/concept 'disbelief' would work fine for these four (five?) words; even if we don't allow gestures, orientation, etc to have meaning, it's clear from context that Cassius would not communicate that William doesn't believe him, but rather that he doesn't believe William. I mean, an English speaker can roll their eyes, or sigh a particular way and communicate the same thing.

Really, this is communicated by the "he laughed again" part, before he even picks up the towel.

You are aware of your reputation.

This is a complex thought compared with the above and is likely what is communicated by picking it up. Really, all that needs to be communicated for William to 'get it' is the concept of reputation and perhaps it being directed to him (especially in context - later in the novel, Cassius quips that the janissary William is feeding from "has at least a pint of blood left in her", so he needn't stop eating yet). Reputation is very important to vampires so it makes sense that they'd be able to communicate it with their system.

You don't remember. They are impossible.

THIS is the most complex part, and to explain its communication I have just written "he elaborated with some careful folds". Honestly, I don't think it's necessary Cassius adds this at all; William decides having a human lover will be good for his reputation because vampires will start respecting the huge amount of non-useful work it takes to cultivate one. Peacock tail style; if he can maintain a huge territory and keep all the conflicts smoothed between the vampires who live there, he must be a particularly good diplomat.

Anyway, I've gone through and shortened the "dialogue" in that section. Really, the most egregious example is "folds in a towel" asking "Do you know where I might get information about nearby Americans" so I elaborated a bit and reduced the sentence length:

William folded a striped towel. Do you have information about nearby Americans? Asked the angles of the creases and the minor movements of his fingertips.

* I know by distilling things down like this, we get something that is not "ordinary english" and so has more entropy than 10 bits per word.

u/CCC_037 [+1] (2 days later)

I should say that context means a lot here: William is temporarily in town, Cassius owns a hotel William is staying at, Cassius had Red (the love interest) hired because of his random "communicates in vampire language" quirk, and Cassius probably knows that William would see a lot of Red due to the timing of Red's shifts.

Hmmm. It would make a lot of sense, in that situation, for a question about the local prey/servants to be easily asked in vampire gesture/language. But perhaps it would flow better as a query about local servants without specifically requesting Americans - which seems a high-bit word to me, as it can take nothing from context.

(Truthfully, Cassius probably hired Red and put him at work as the night porter because some vampire guest would be interested in him sometime and would then owe him a favour for poaching his territory: so this situation worked out well for him)

Now, that is an excellent devious-vampire move - setting up a situation where someone owes him a favour, at little or no cost to himself.

Really, this is communicated by the "he laughed again" part, before he even picks up the towel.

...valid point. But it may need a smidge of a tweak to the phrasing.

Still, there seems to be very little difference between Vampire Gesture Language and the various variants on sign language (which can be done by mere finger-wriggling). I'm not sure how intentional that is.

William folded a striped towel. Do you have information about nearby Americans? Asked the angles of the creases and the minor movements of his fingertips.

That's a good deal better, yes. 'Minor movements of his fingertips' include an entire potential lexicon of sign language. He could be requesting information with the towel and the creases, and signing 'American' with his fingertips - and now the channel has enough bits to easily accomodate the message.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 days later)

But perhaps it would flow better as a query about local servants without specifically requesting Americans - which seems a high-bit word to me, as it can take nothing from context.

Very true. That's an easy modification to make. And the reader will know from context that we're talking about Red...

Now, that is an excellent devious-vampire move - setting up a situation where someone owes him a favour, at little or no cost to himself.

I'm glad you like it! Cassius is fun to write; he's highly intelligent, very manipulative, bloodthirsty at the drop of a hat, but witty and sarcastic and playful and fiercely loyal. Honestly, he's probably the most Rationalist character in the story: and he's ultimately the antagonist. He gets caught by cognitive biases and wishful thinking in the end, though.

'Minor movements of his fingertips' include an entire potential lexicon of sign language.

Good point - I probably don't want them communicating in sign language specifically, as that kind of gets away from the aesthetic I want. I'll steer description away from that.

Thanks for your analysis, it was really helpful as always!

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 days later)

I'm glad you like it!

Very much!

he's highly intelligent, very manipulative, bloodthirsty at the drop of a hat, but witty and sarcastic and playful and fiercely loyal.

He sounds like he could make a scarily effective villain - which is the best kind of villain to make. Especially if he thinks he's the hero.

Good point - I probably don't want them communicating in sign language specifically, as that kind of gets away from the aesthetic I want. I'll steer description away from that.

I was actually thinking more in terms of bandwidth than anything else - sign language is proof that finger movements have enough bandwidth for arbitrary English phrases to be communicated via finger/arm movements, so it might be used for the occasional high-bandwidth word or phrase.

Thanks for your analysis, it was really helpful as always!

Glad to help!

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 days later)

Cassius' point of view really paints William as a terrible guy:

• William is one of the other survivors of the Catastrophe who he always kind of knew but was never too close with, but they seemed to forge a decent friendship as long as religion was not discussed
• He gives William a pretty good human slave, even though William is not necessarily going to take good care of him.
• In exchange, he manages to get William to place his child, Junior (name TBC), in a small backwater city in a remote part of Australia. This is good because Junior has annoyed a bunch of more powerful vampires, but Cassius feels a responsibility to the human he turned into a vampire, and thinks that growing up in "his own space" will allow Junior to become a good vampire in time
• He puts William in touch with Elodia, who owns the safest place to hide an American in WW2 Europe (Corsica). Cassius and Elodia aren't on the best of terms and Cassius is hoping that William living near Elodia will help improve relations.
• William then, after training a PERFECTLY GOOD HUMAN improperly, declares war on Elodia rather than letting her just kill that human, worsening diplomatic relations for NO REASON since William is particularly willing to kill humans as vampires go
• After being defeated in the war, William manages to negotiate a way out of killing the human (WHICH HE COULD HAVE DONE IN THE FIRST PLACE), which involves killing Junior instead, because for some reason he'd rather kill one of his close allies' children than some human he met like six months ago - and of course he doesn't admit it, ask for permission, offer some sort of trade (it'd have to be a damn good one) - he just does it secretly and makes it look like an accident so Cassius doesn't realise it happened until 60 years later when he's auditing his psychic breeding programme
• This entire 60 years he is using that human that he only got because Cassius was willing to give to him, after causing all that damn trouble
• Finally, but before Cassius' breeding programme reveals William's deception, Cassius has another child who needs to be kept out of the way in Australia for a few decades and arranges for her to be sent down to Australia for William to keep an eye on
• The vampire hunters that William has left alive FOR NO DISCERNABLE REASON kill his child
• Now William is responsible for two of his children dying, shows no remorse, says that he wasn't responsible because he was no longer the King of New Holland, this random vampire who nobody has ever heard of even though William says she's at least 5,000 years old - older than ANY of them - because she can walk in the sun
• So Cassius challenges this vampire to combat, this vampire turns out to be a FUCKING ANDROID, and she kicks his arse because Cassius doesn't realise she's an android until it's too late, so Cassius dies(? not sure if I want him to die but I think if I don't do that he's gonna kill William and sorry Cassius William is the protag not you)

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 days later)

He puts William in touch with Elodia

All seems well up to here. Presumably Elodia and William have more or less compatible personalities.

William then, after training a PERFECTLY GOOD HUMAN improperly, declares war on Elodia rather than letting her just kill that human

Ooooooooh dear. Clearly William needs to do something very nice for Cassius at this point, or else Cassius will join Elodia's side in the war (mainly to improve relations with Elodia via the use of a common enemy).

William couldn't possibly be taking his promise to 'be careful' with this particular human that seriously, could he?

This entire 60 years he is using that human that he only got because Cassius was willing to give to him, after causing all that damn trouble

To be fair, William got that human before causing all this trouble. (He certainly wouldn't have got it after).

Finally, but before Cassius' breeding programme reveals William's deception, Cassius has another child who needs to be kept out of the way in Australia for a few decades and arranges for her to be sent down to Australia for William to keep an eye on

Presumably, this implies that relations with William at this time are better than relations with Elodia (Junior I must have seriously annoyed her. Or perhaps they had an unrelated disagreement at the same time. Either way, William sounds like he's been working on repairing the split between them - and, of course, Cassius doesn't know what happened to Junior I yet).

The vampire hunters that William has left alive FOR NO DISCERNABLE REASON kill his child

Well, now, that is clearly William's fault. If he's going to leave vampire hunters of all things alive, then he must surely bear responsibility for any hunting they do - in fact, it's prudent to assume he intended it, specifically (either that or he's a complete incompetant who can't control his own territory).

she kicks his arse because Cassius doesn't realise she's an android until it's too late, so Cassius dies(? not sure if I want him to die but I think if I don't do that he's gonna kill William and sorry Cassius William is the protag not you)

Yeah, at this point I think Cassius' options are either 'die' or 'come back in the sequel, swearing revenge'.

At some point during their battle, though, Cassius probably needs to successfully stake her through the heart - and then get quite upset when that doesn't work as expected.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 days later)

or else Cassius will join Elodia's side in the war (mainly to improve relations with Elodia via the use of a common enemy).

This may have happened: I don't explicitly state it but William wants to fight Elodia with a sword fight and Elodia wants to do competitive poetry writing or something. Cassius could well have been used as an intermediary to pick a "fair" battle: and of course he picks something William might lose at. Elodia is a lot less important than William though, but William lives far away and Elodia lives very close by.

William sounds like he's been working on repairing the split between [him and Cassius]

I think until Cassius finds out that Junior I was killed by William, he has no reason not to like William beyond trying to get on Elodia's good side: I imagine vampire attitudes / alleigances have a fair amount of "frenemies" time in them. I can be friends with two people who can't stand one another (..... okay, my friends can be friends with me and my ex who I can't stand, but can we tell the story that makes me sound like a good person?), so I'm sure Cassius can, too.

Yeah, at this point I think Cassius' options are either 'die' or 'come back in the sequel, swearing revenge'.

I think "come back in the sequel" would really be "come back the next day where William sleeps and kill him in a rage", unfortunately. :( So Cassius, you must die even though you are a villain who seems to do everything right except fail to anticipate androids are a thing.

At some point during their battle, though, Cassius probably needs to successfully stake her through the heart - and then get quite upset when that doesn't work as expected.

The original battle as sketched has Cassius tearing her head off and then having no idea what to do afterwards because vampire hand-to-hand combat training ends at the "tear head off" stage because that's all you need to do to kill a vampire. I'm picturing it like pure wrestlers in MMA who can get people to the ground but don't have much skill once they're down there, because wrestling doesn't use submissions like BJJ does. A stake might be a great option, though, to add to it.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 days later)

This may have happened: I don't explicitly state it but William wants to fight Elodia with a sword fight and Elodia wants to do competitive poetry writing or something. Cassius could well have been used as an intermediary to pick a "fair" battle: and of course he picks something William might lose at. Elodia is a lot less important than William though, but William lives far away and Elodia lives very close by.

Hmmm...

I'm imagining Cassius quietly pulling William aside at first, and pointing out to him how he can avoid the whole trouble by just killing the stupid human in the first place. Honestly, it's not as if it'll make the slightest bit of difference in a century or two, is it? (Maybe even ask him if he's taking Cassius' original request to be careful with this human a bit too seriously). And then, depending on just how rudely William says 'no', Cassius might jump straight to picking a form of contest that works to to an automatic 'Elodia wins'.

I think until Cassius finds out that Junior I was killed by William, he has no reason not to like William beyond trying to get on Elodia's good side: I imagine vampire attitudes / alleigances have a fair amount of "frenemies" time in them.

Oh, yeah. But if he's sending Junior II to William, that implies that his relations with William are better than his relations with Elodia at the time - so he might be in a 'frenemies' state with Elodia as well (perhaps for unrelated reasons).

I think "come back in the sequel" would really be "come back the next day where William sleeps and kill him in a rage", unfortunately.

Isn't William still protected by the Gargoyle? (Also, Cassius might need time to recover from his injuries first - usually vampires recover fast, but I can think of a few things an android might pull off that could take a while to recover from...)

The original battle as sketched has Cassius tearing her head off and then having no idea what to do afterwards because vampire hand-to-hand combat training ends at the "tear head off" stage because that's all you need to do to kill a vampire.

Decapitation works against vampires and humans!

I recall a story in which the vampire hunters had wooden stakes that could be fired from crossbows, allowing them to stake at range. If that hits, it seems a pretty decisive way to end a battle with a vampire. And if he stakes and decapitates her, then there's no way she can survive that, right? No matter how old she might be? (Wrong, but only because she's an Outside Context Problem for him...)

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 days later)

I'm imagining Cassius quietly pulling William aside at first [etc]

... i love it.

if he's sending Junior II to William, that implies that his relations with William are better than his relations with Elodia at the time

Not necessarily: maybe J2 has made enemies with someone other than Elodia; William is uniquely positioned to have a large swathe of territory that problem children can be exiled to, without it looking too much like being exiled ("Junior! I've found you a wonderful place you can stay! A whole town for you to rule, all to yourself! At your age, it's a rare feat! Now let's ignore the fact it's a remote part of Australia...")

Isn't William still protected by the Gargoyle

Good point! I'll think about it.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 days later)

Not necessarily: maybe J2 has made enemies with someone other than Elodia; William is uniquely positioned to have a large swathe of territory that problem children can be exiled to, without it looking too much like being exiled ("Junior! I've found you a wonderful place you can stay! A whole town for you to rule, all to yourself! At your age, it's a rare feat! Now let's ignore the fact it's a remote part of Australia...")

Hmmm... point. Perhaps Junior II personally annoyed Elodia (in some fairly minor way, like sneezing at the wrong time - not the seriously wrong time, just the slightly wrong time). Or perhaps Cassius sees this at giving William a chance at redemption - Junior I's death might look like an accident, but it was still an accident that happened on William's watch, while Junior I was living in William's territory, so William must take at least some of the responsibility. So perhaps Cassius is trying to mend relations by giving William the chance to look after one of his (Cassius') spawn properly.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 days later)

Probably wasn't explicit enough: J1 died on blank's watch, in blank's territory (Sardinia). This is distinct from Elodia's (Corsica) and William's (New Holland/Australia). Blank may have been killed for it; who knows. J1 was hated by Elodia and presumably liked by Blank, though, so if anything Elodia is taking the fall - but for her ironclad alibi. Then again... all else being equal, the circumstances being as they are would put William in the crosshairs but there's no way to prove it. Hm.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 days later)

so if anything Elodia is taking the fall - but for her ironclad alibi.

Ironclad alibis could mean 'I got one of my janissaries to do it'. You know, after having armed him with a suitable weapon and made sure there was no way to trace him back. Cassius might need proof before he kills Elodia over it (lest her more powerful allies take exception) but I imagine she takes a significant social/political hit to her reputation in any case.

William, on the other hand, uses the fact that he does not have an alibi to suggest that he didn't know the hit was coming and therefore cannot possibly be guilty - and besides, it was surely an accident and occurred in Blank's territory in any case.

(Elodia probably hates this explanation because it makes her alibi look bad, but she can't say a thing because if she gets into a fight with William over this, it's going to end up in a great big he-said-she-said disagreement, which William is going to win (because he is more socially popular with the other vampires), taking a large social hit in the process while she gets executed outright; the other vampires recognise that she's keeping deliberately silent but they think she's just angry that William is making her look bad and she's got nothing on him so she can't do a thing about it; even those who suspect that William might have something to blackmail her with think that it might be that William has proof of her guilt and he's sitting on it because Elodia is more useful to him forced to do what he says than dead; which means that, despite having lost the war, William is winning the social game and feeling quite smug).

Hmmmm. Does that sound anywhere near reasonable?

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (3 days later)

after having armed him with a suitable weapon

Like... a match ;)

Cassius might need proof before he kills Elodia over it but I imagine she takes a significant social/political hit to her reputation in any case.

True: Elodia takes a big boon to her reputation after beating William, but being implicated for J1's death is going to be a smaller hit. I guess she hates J1 enough that she considers it worth it.

William, on the other hand, uses the fact that he does not have an alibi to suggest that he didn't know the hit was coming and therefore cannot possibly be guilty

WIFOM!

he-said-she-said disagreement, which William is going to win (because he is more socially popular with the other vampires)

Nah, after losing the war, being suspiciously near one of Elodia's enemies deaths, and being widely rumored to have lost the war because he has romantic feelings over humans.... William's reputation SUCKS.

I do like the idea of people thinking William has dirt on Elodia though. There's a lot of different ways to play it. I've tried to keep vampire politics out of it as much as I can (it's a romance story, after all, and told from the human's angle of vision), but I might have to add more of that sort of stuff as it could be quite interesting.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (3 days later)

Like... a match ;)

What? A mere human, with a match, against a strong and noble vampire? Don't be ridiculous.

No, a 'suitable weapon' would be more like a flamethrower. And even that only after the vampire in question has been doused in petrol.

True: Elodia takes a big boon to her reputation after beating William, but being implicated for J1's death is going to be a smaller hit. I guess she hates J1 enough that she considers it worth it.

Reputations recover with time, but vampires don't die easily.

Nah, after losing the war, being suspiciously near one of Elodia's enemies deaths, and being widely rumored to have lost the war because he has romantic feelings over humans.... William's reputation SUCKS.

Then why doesn't Elodia destroy William entirely by letting some rumours of what he did to Junior1 slip out?

.......oh. Oh. Oh. Wait. She's using this incident to blackmail him, isn't she? Blackmailing him to get more benefits than she otherwise would from his death?

Or perhaps she has another enemy who would profit more from William's death than she would...

I do like the idea of people thinking William has dirt on Elodia though. There's a lot of different ways to play it.

I'm thinking that most vampires who live long enough probably have some form of dirt on each other. Mutual blackmail may well be a large part of vampire politics. (And the lack of blackmail material a critical part of a newborn vampire's weaknesses).

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (4 days later)

A mere human, with a match, against a strong and noble vampire?

cough who is asleep during the day and completely defenseless...

I didn't nail down details for how William kills Junior1 though now I come to think of it: probably he overpowers J1 in single combat and then torches the house to make it look like an accident.

Elodia's using this incident to blackmail William, isn't she?

Genius! Almost certainly! She gets the benefit of killing J1, the benefit of W's reputation going to shit, and the benefit of having huge amounts of dirt on W - because even though she ordered the hit, W went through with it for really, really low-status reasons and instead of reporting her murderous desires to Cassius and getting a gold star, William decided to commit murder, so if anything he's more culpable than Elodia is - especially because he knows better.

Or perhaps she has another enemy who would profit more from William's death than she would...

Probably also true, a major vampire in William's area could be a rival of hers of similar age and would be, at least temporarily, in charge of that territory. She wouldn't want that status going to that worm before her.

Mutual blackmail may well be a large part of vampire politics.

Likely is. I imagine the closest friends become so because they can blackmail each other several times over, mutually assured destruction style, and just realise since they can't ever betray each other that they can actually fully trust each other. It'd be.... hard to get your head around.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (4 days later)

cough who is asleep during the day and completely defenseless...

That's not going to be how your average vampire is going to see it. Yes, they're vulnerable, but they won't like being reminded of that...

I didn't nail down details for how William kills Junior1 though now I come to think of it: probably he overpowers J1 in single combat and then torches the house to make it look like an accident.

Makes sense. William presumably makes the fire look like an accident as well - electric systems sparking or something, not the arson it is.

She gets the benefit of killing J1, the benefit of W's reputation going to shit, and the benefit of having huge amounts of dirt on W - because even though she ordered the hit, W went through with it for really, really low-status reasons and instead of reporting her murderous desires to Cassius and getting a gold star, William decided to commit murder, so if anything he's more culpable than Elodia is - especially because he knows better.

Complete and utter victory!

Likely is. I imagine the closest friends become so because they can blackmail each other several times over, mutually assured destruction style, and just realise since they can't ever betray each other that they can actually fully trust each other. It'd be.... hard to get your head around.

But they can always betray each other to the point of death - if Tom the Vampire kills Jack the Vampire then it barely matters what dirt Jack has on Tom, Jack's too dead to use it.

u/MagicWeasel [+1] Cheela Astronaut (4 days later)

Yes, they're vulnerable, but they won't like being reminded of that...

I don't know if I was a vampire I'd be constantly aware of the danger of the sun and doing everything I could to mitigate it.

William presumably makes the fire look like an accident as well - electric systems sparking or something, not the arson it is.

Yeah, absolutely; a very quick skim of some relevant papers shows that arson investigation science was well and truly in its infancy in the 1970s, and while vampires might have a special interest in arson, they are probably not 50 years ahead of the game.

Plus William probably set, like, a whole street on fire. Collateral damage? Pfft.

But they can always betray each other to the point of death

There's probably a vampire proverb along those lines: "Keep one eye on your enemies, for they can ruin you. But keep both eyes on your friends, for they are the only ones who have anything to gain by killing you".

u/CCC_037 [+2] (4 days later)

As a human, how constantly aware are you of the dangers of crossing the street?

Collateral damage? Pfft.

They're only humans, after all.

Were there any famous historical fires at more or less the right time and place?

There's probably a vampire proverb along those lines: "Keep one eye on your enemies, for they can ruin you. But keep both eyes on your friends, for they are the only ones who have anything to gain by killing you".

"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"?

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (4 days later)

As a human, how constantly aware are you of the dangers of crossing the street?

As a traffic engineer who frequently looks at accident statistics, nearly constantly. I panic when people use their phones at traffic lights or on deserted roads. I could show you road safety propaganda about that, about crossing the street being dangerous, etc. You picked a really bad example for me!

Were there any famous historical fires at more or less the right time and place?

Not from the look of it

"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"?

Lacks a lot of the nuance.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (4 days later)

As a traffic engineer who frequently looks at accident statistics, nearly constantly. I panic when people use their phones at traffic lights or on deserted roads. I could show you road safety propaganda about that, about crossing the street being dangerous, etc. You picked a really bad example for me!

So then you're agreed that the average human doesn't pay it nearly enough attention?

Lacks a lot of the nuance.

Hmmmmm. You're right.

u/MagicWeasel [+3] Cheela Astronaut (4 days later)

Fiiiiiiiiiiiiiine. The average human is an idiot. It's probably why so many vampires die before they get to a certain point.

(Great now I'm thinking of a guy I knew who would text while driving on high-speed roads.... I got SO MAD)

So, we have kind of tapped this well dry, I guess. If you want to continue pulling apart the worldbuilding in my story, here's another excerpt. If you don't, then no need to reply: I will take that to mean "thank you for the lovely chat, and I will see you around".

---

Yolande knocked gently on her master’s door. “My lord?”

“Yes?”

“The messenger said that his majesty found the rain rather charming.”

Cassius paused, taking a moment to compose a reply. “Have him tell King William that my marigolds did not seem any better for it.” In context, the mention of something failing to grow would tell that Cassius thought William’s desire to take on this human remained incomprehensible to him, especially given William’s history. And the mention of marigolds served to emphasise the young American man was not in safe hands. He enjoyed the irony of the night porter sending a message predicting his own doom.

He got out of his chair, picking a heavy, wax-sealed envelope off a shelf. “And have the messenger deliver this.” In the letter, Cassius confirmed that William could take the human for his own use, and outlined the sorts of favours that he would one day expect in exchange.

“As you wish, my lord.” Yolande replied.

He nodded. “You are dismissed.”

“Thank you, my lord.” She curtsied, and rushed over to the drawing room where the messenger was waiting to receive the second letter and the third cryptic remark of the evening.

Yolande pondered over what she’d just heard. She had been doing this job for Cassius for a hundred and twenty years. Back in her youth, before she had gotten involved in all of this, it was popular for friends and suitors to send each other messages using flowers. Each bloom had its own meaning: there were dictionaries printed that kept track of them all. She fondly remembered giving a card featuring a drawing of a mimosa flower to an overly eager suitor. The flower - a symbol of chastity - had told him that she would not provide him with what he was after.

She had known for a long time that her master’s letters and gifts were like that, but there was no dictionary that could begin to decipher them.

She idly wondered if her master’s mention of marigolds meant that there had been a recent death, for they were the flowers of grief.

---

The part about the marigolds I am really reconsidering after what we discussed in the towel scene; probably too many bits are being transferred.

Really I should work out what the whole exchange means (it is, for the record, "my master hopes you are enjoying the current weather"/"my master found the rain rather charming"/"my master says his marigolds did not seem the better for it") and then reword the passage.

"current weather" though, in context, probably means "this American servant, who is standing here, speaking to you"; "the rain" has to have meaning, because there was no recent rain, but on the whole it seems to communicate that William is enjoying the servant; and the marigolds line, in context, seems clear that although the rain is charming (the servant is good), the marigolds will not grow (marigolds = grief)... maybe I should swap the marigolds for something else, or just swap it out for "and I believe my marigolds will be in full bloom faster than expected".

u/CCC_037 [+2] (4 days later)

The average human is an idiot.

And it's worth bearing in mind, when you consider the average human, that half of humanity is less smart than that.

(I think your high-speed texting friend is in that half. Wilful ignorance is one thing, but...).

The part about the marigolds I am really reconsidering after what we discussed in the towel scene; probably too many bits are being transferred.

I don't know - marigolds (or any other flower, really) meaning danger and 'not growing' meaning confusion seems well within the capabilities of a vampire flower language to me. (People like Yolande picking up a few of these meanings and using them to figure out the 'language of the flowers' might actually be the in-universe origin thereof).

Instead, I'm going to pick on that envelope. Do vampires have some sort of secret alphabet, or did Cassius just write his notes in plaintext, ready to be stumbled across by a servant at the wrong moment? Such a secret alphabet could even have turned up over time - Cassius could be writing in cuneiform or something which modern people would barely recognise but a fellow vampire would know well.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (4 days later)

(I think your high-speed texting friend is in that half. Wilful ignorance is one thing, but...).

And it's on country roads where kangaroos can just come at you from nowhere (self-driving cars tested in Aus are having a lot of trouble detecting roos because they don't move like cows/deer do).

(People like Yolande picking up a few of these meanings and using them to figure out the 'language of the flowers' might actually be the in-universe origin thereof).

... it never occurred to me that Victorian flower language was a transplant from Vampire flower language but it makes PERFECT sense: some young vampire wrote it down somewhere, and a human found it, thought it was neat, and the trend spread amongst humans thereafter. Maybe it was in the effects of a vampire who died in that plague....

did Cassius just write his notes in plaintext, ready to be stumbled across by a servant at the wrong moment?

Nah, they carefully choose servants who don't understand the languages they prefer to write in. As you note further, they tend to make their correspondence in ancient languages where possible:

Ever since they arrived in Corsica, William had been receiving regular letters; thick wax-sealed sheaves of paper that were covered in meticulously hand-written script, most of it in languages Red couldn’t identify, let alone read.

They probably also have a secret code. I want it to be Linear A because I think that would be entertaining (and then a linguist finds some vampire communication in Linear A and there's enough of it for them to decypher it!), but probably it'd just be something like ancient Korean that is perfectly understandable to modern scholars but the vampires just take care not to take any experts in Korean antiquities. And you're kind of just expected to learn ancient Korean once you get turned because otherwise how the hell are you going to talk to anyone?

I'm imagining William talking to Red soon after turning him into a vampire:

"Okay my love, now, let's work on your letter forms..."

"What hte hell babe? Is this chinese?"

"No, it is Korean from the Wang dynasty, circa 500 BCE"

".... why are you teaching me this?"

"you're going to write Elizabeth a letter announcing your intention to visit her"

"she speaks English! I've spoken to her in English!"

" you don't do formal letters in the local language, my dear."

"She speaks French too! I've heard you speaking it to her! I can just write in French, if it's so important. Why do I need to learn Korean?"

(long sigh) "my dear, you have much left to learn"

u/CCC_037 [+2] (4 days later)

some young vampire wrote it down somewhere, and a human found it, thought it was neat, and the trend spread amongst humans thereafter. Maybe it was in the effects of a vampire who died in that plague....

That does make sense.

I want it to be Linear A because I think that would be entertaining (and then a linguist finds some vampire communication in Linear A and there's enough of it for them to decypher it!), but probably it'd just be something like ancient Korean that is perfectly understandable to modern scholars but the vampires just take care not to take any experts in Korean antiquities.

Actually, Linear A makes a lot of sense.

(1) The actual script used will bear a strong resemblance to an ancient writing system - Linear A strongly resembles Linear B

(2) Despite this resemblance, it will be largely unintelligible because the vampires are writing in code

(3) It will be related to a language that as once considered high-class and formal, probably Greek or Latin - and Linear A is related to Greek.

So then, Linear A would turn out to be Ancient Greek that's been run through some sort of substitution cypher.

And yes, a new vampire will have a sharp learning curve. Thousands of years of tradition needs catching up on...

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (4 days later)

Good argument for Linear A, it does make a good case that vampires might be using that as a secret language. There'd probably be tiers; Linear A takes a long time to write in because of the encryption and decryption, so it's for real secret stuff. Regular discussion can be in ancient Korean and basic updates can be in whatever language you both find mutually intelligible. (And the real top secret stuff, you speak on the phone - NEW EXCERPT TIME!).

... now i'm imagining a human slave understanding, say, Hungarian but their vampire master having no idea and then hijinks ensue. Probably you'd ask a human what languages they speak and test them periodically.

---

disclaimer: this needs some editing for style, pace, and some grammar, not my best work, yadda yadda

---

[William has just lost the war with Elodia]. During the next few days Julias flew between the two vampires' houses as they exchanged letters that were by far the shortest Red had ever seen William send. Every time he received a new letter, he would frown, or sigh, or throw it to the table in apparent disgust. Red had spent the better part of a year around the man, and he was not prone to any big displays of emotion. Throwing the letter to the table was perhaps the most passionate display of anger that Red had yet witnessed from him. When pressed, he stated they were negotiating the terms of his surrender, but he refused to go into further detail. Red couldn’t help but worry; did Elodia still want him killed? Had Lucia made good on her promise to put in a good word for him? Could Elodia send someone to take him, lying in wait in an alley? Red took to carrying the silver dagger with him.

Finally, one evening, William took a phone call from Elodia. He spat at her in Italian, each syllable falling as loudly and quickly as lightning, flashing by faster than Red could hope to comprehend. After fifteen minutes of this, William hung the receiver up and began pacing up and down the entryway. He ran his fingers through his curly blonde hair. Red stood in a doorway, still watching him.

“How did it go?”

William jerked at the noise, as though was caught off-guard by Red’s presence there. That was a first.

“It went quite well.” He said, wearing the same calm smile as always. “We have arrived at a mutually satisfactory solution. Duchess Elodia has finally stopped insisting that I provide her with your head.”

Red rubbed his neck, frowning. “That’s good. I hope it’s not going to be too much trouble. With all the letters you got, I thought…”

William chuckled. “No. Everything shall be fine. She has agreed to spare you in exchange for an artefact that I must obtain from Sardinia. I will be gone for several days.”

“I’ll pack my things.”

“No. You will need to stay here. Sardinia is not safe for you.”

“I’m not sure I’m safe here either, William! There’s a vampire who wants to cut off my head.”

“I am leaving you with Julias. You will be quite safe.”

---

NB: William is actually speaking Latin, not Italian, but it sounds Italian to Red's ear because William is speaking so quickly / William speaks it with an Italian accent / etc. Do you think it would be better to specify, like, "he spat at her in a language Red didn't know" or just let Red's assumption go there.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (4 days later)

(And the real top secret stuff, you speak on the phone - NEW EXCERPT TIME!)

On the phone? But such new technology hasn't had the time to be considered formal yet, and besides, phones can be tapped. No. face to face for the real top secret stuff is the only way to go.

... now i'm imagining a human slave understanding, say, Hungarian but their vampire master having no idea and then hijinks ensue. Probably you'd ask a human what languages they speak and test them periodically.

Oh, please. These mortals never last more than a century at most. Seriously, blink and you miss them. Who's got time to interrogate all your servants every century just to find out what they don't speak?

It's so much easier just to kill them if they find out too much.

[excerpt]

Red seems to have a healthy sense of self-preservation. That's good.

I think let Red's assumption go here. Maybe adjust the phrasing slightly - "in what sounded like Italian" instead of "in Italian" - to reflect that Red doesn't actually understand it; but this is all done from Red's point of view, so Red's impression counts for a lot.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (4 days later)

But such new technology hasn't had the time to be considered formal yet, and besides, phones can be tapped. No. face to face for the real top secret stuff is the only way to go.

Okay, yeah; the real top secret stuff is going to be face to face, on a platform in the middle of the ocean.

It looks like in the 1940s wiretapping is not really a concern, and Elodia having a mini-switchboard in her "main house", with maybe half a dozen connections, could allow them to have that phone call to negotiate William's hitman status.

It's so much easier just to kill them if they find out too much.

Until they're a rival's ghoul sent in to find out their secrets: blackmail material, naturally.

Red seems to have a healthy sense of self-preservation. That's good.

After what he went through - very sure William was just going to stand there engaging in pleasantries and watch him die - he's gotten a bit... flighty. The poor dear.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (4 days later)

Until they're a rival's ghoul sent in to find out their secrets: blackmail material, naturally.

If you have a competent rival, the ghoul will pretend he doesn't speak any other languages in any case. (And probably turn out to have an eidetic memory, too). So the test isn't going to stop that.

No, if you want to stop that then you have to either be sneakier, or develop a reputation for brutally killing any vampire who tries pulling that nonsense on you.

After what he went through - very sure William was just going to stand there engaging in pleasantries and watch him die - he's gotten a bit... flighty. The poor dear.

But his first instinct in time of trouble is still to accompany the guy who he's imagining doesn't have his back?

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (5 days later)

No, if you want to stop that then you have to either be sneakier, or develop a reputation for brutally killing any vampire who tries pulling that nonsense on you.

Oh yeah....durrr.... thanks

his first instinct in time of trouble is still to accompany the guy who he's imagining doesn't have his back

Nah, "william engaging in pleasantries" was actually William doing the only thing he could do to save Red: just not what Red was hoping at the time. (Red was hoping William would order his rival's thrall to stop trying to kill Red; Red was also hoping the thrall, who he had befriended, was not going to kill him; instead the thrall was holding a knife to Red's throat and William was just standing there talking instead of grabbing the thrall.

Heck, here's the excerpt in question because why not:

---

[Red fucks up at serving a ritual meal]

“What hapless idiot do you deem worthy of serving us?” Elodia said in French; clearly, she wanted Red to hear.

“I beg your forgiveness, your grace.” William replied. “I shall be happy to provide you with the appropriate reparations for this inconvenience.”

“I want that thing destroyed.”

Red flinched, stepping backwards. He knew he shouldn’t have moved, that he was making things worse, but if she was going to move on him he wanted as much distance as possible. Every second would count when it came time to draw his weapon.

“Your grace, you should not give the most extreme penalty for a slave’s first offense.”

“I am the wronged. You know I have the right to mandate the penalty. LUCIA!” Elodia called. “As you refuse to mete out the punishment, King William of New Holland, I shall have my slave do it in your stead.”

Lucia answered Elodia’s call, entering the dining room. She took stock of the situation and hung her head, bending slightly and hitching up her skirt to take a dagger out of a sheath that was attached to her thigh. Red moved to grab his own dagger out of the sheath that was hidden in the back of his pants. He wondered if Lucia’s was also silver.

“Put your weapon away, or her grace will do it herself, and she shall be far less kind.” Lucia’s eyes were full of pity as she approached Red.

Red looked to William. He couldn't believe what was happening. Surely William would be able to stop Lucia? Her dagger didn’t scare him, did it? The entire American army hadn’t given him any pause, so what was one woman with one puny weapon?

“Don’t. I’m sorry, I…” Red tried to keep his composure, wondering how long a silver knife could hold a vampire off. “I didn’t mean anything by it, I didn’t…” He gave William a furtive glance, but he made no move to intervene.

“I do not accept the punishment you have proposed. I offer instead full use of four janissaries, a place for yourself or one of your allies in one of my larger cities, and my assurance that you will never lay eyes upon this human again. That is more than generous, for this slave has never offended before.”

Lucia calmly grabbed Red with strength he immediately knew he could not equal. He attempted to wrench his arm away to break her hold, the way he had been taught in basic, and knew he had as much chance of breaking her grip as a bird did to a cat. He stabbed at her with his dagger; she grabbed the blade in her hand, pulling it out of his grip, not seeming to mind the crimson blood that dripped out of her palm after she threw it to the ground.

“No. I have the right to declare the punishment.” Elodia said, louder, glaring at Red.

“Then I declare war.” William stated still louder, with a flat, confident tone.

Lucia moved to stand behind Red, holding her dagger to his neck. The blood from her hand started staining his new suit. He could feel the hair on the back of his neck begin to get stained with his sweat.

“You declare war? Over a useless slave such as this?” Elodia gestured to Red, her voice growing shrill.

“Please, William. Please.” Red could feel the blade on his neck, bit his bottom lip, and closed his eyes. Was this any better than if he had just died on the beach that day?

“Yes. And my first act in this war shall be kidnapping your favoured slave.”

All of a sudden, the pressure on his neck disappeared. Red opened his eyes, and there was William, standing in front of him, gently holding Lucia's wrist.

“Go to the servant’s quarters at once.”

Lucia looked to Elodia. Elodia gave a slight nod, her eyes cold.

“Yes, your majesty.” Lucia said, sheathing her dagger and going for the stairs. She made eye contact with Red and gave him a small smile. He looked away, not understanding what was happening.

Elodia produced a small glass vial from somewhere under her preposterously poofy skirt.

“By providing you this sample of my blood, I declare that I wish to resolve this without immediate combat.” Elodia recited. She gave William a withering look as she bit a small hole in her left wrist and bled into the vial. She handed it to him and went to the kitchen.

Red looked at William, his hand on his throat. His heart was thudding in his ears, his lungs burning as though he had just run for hours. “What... How…”

“Duchess Elodia is quite upset.”

“What just...?”

“I have forced her hand by kidnapping Lucia.”

Red could feel his throat closing, his eyes prickling. The situation was just beginning to register in the deepest parts of him. Lucia had her knife right there, she was his friend and she had every intention of killing him and William did not try to stop her, until...

Red didn’t understand what had happened. He didn’t understand what he had done wrong. He didn’t understand how Elodia could be so mad at him. And he didn’t understand why William would kidnap Lucia. Wouldn’t that just make her angrier?

He looked back up at William, who was standing there in his long black coat and white cravat. The small vial of Elodia’s blood was in his hand. And he was giving Red that look, the look that said the only thing stopping him from grabbing him and holding him for hours was the fact they were in public. That made Red’s chest ache even worse than before.

As Red was beginning to work up the nerve to run to William despite the potential for further scandal that may bring, Elodia reappeared. Her four janissaries were in tow, the ridiculous green costumes that two of them had been wearing being replaced with more ordinary attire. Odette’s face was even more sour than before, if such a thing was possible. Jacques and Florence, too, looked rather disappointed. Victor seemed disappointed, too, but Red knew that was only because his reading had been interrupted.

Elodia stood in front of William, met his gaze, and with a dramatic turn, she escorted her entourage out of the house.

Red couldn’t resist now. He ran to William, who took a step towards him to hug him tightly, kissing the side of his head.

“I’m sorry, god, I’m so sorry.” He exhaled into the scratchy material of William's cravat, his breath only just starting to move past the knot of panic in his chest. “I’m sorry.”

“You have nothing to fear.” William soothed.

“What happened? Why?”

“Duchess Elodia and I are now at war.”

“War?”

“We shall negotiate the rules of engagement shortly. Now come, let us clean this mess.” William seemed calm as ever.

Red swallowed, trying to get his throat to relax enough to speak properly. “Did you just say you're at war?”

“Fear not. I doubt we shall be mobilising armies. That has not been fashionable for some time.”

“But…” Red didn’t understand. “Why?”

“It seemed the easiest way to resolve the situation.” William said calmly, gently stroking Red's hair.

“What happens if you lose?”

“What have I told you, my dear? I shall not lose.”

Red hadn’t doubted William when he said he did not fear the American army; but something about the way he stood, the way he spoke, and the way he had acted around Elodia… Red did not feel that same, unalienable confidence from him this time.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (5 days later)

Hmmmm. Elodia... she might have vampire tradition on her side, but she did escalate things quite deliberately. It looks like she either:

• Has some grudge against William
• Has some grudge against Red
• Is confident that she can win in a war against William (and better her position in the process) and thus intends to push him into declaring one

I also note that the moment Lucia actually raised her weapon to Red's throat, William pretty much instantly removed her - it seems likely that he was ready to take advantage of his vampiric speed to leap forward and stop her at any point, should she try to kill Red quite suddenly.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (5 days later)

Yeah, she has a grudge against William and thinks defeating him will make her look really, really good. She only suspected he'd declare war at about 10% probability but worst case scenario she kills a human, which is acceptable.

I also note that the moment Lucia actually raised her weapon to Red's throat, William pretty much instantly removed her

Yeah, Red was never in any actual danger - but he sure felt like he was!

Red is kind of like a transhumanist before transhumanism was a thing: deserted the army because he was terrified he'd die, and ultimately begs to be made into a vampire when his own death is imminent. (Before that, William had asked to turn him, but Red refused; he reneged when he was mortally wounded, though... but that's volume 3)

u/CCC_037 [+1] (6 days later)

Yeah, she has a grudge against William and thinks defeating him will make her look really, really good.

Hmmm. So, she also prepared better in advance, thus allowing her victory.

She only suspected he'd declare war at about 10% probability but worst case scenario she kills a human, which is acceptable.

Even in the worst case, she annoys William and pushes him closer to losing his temper and declaring war the next time she pushes his buttons.

Red is kind of like a transhumanist before transhumanism was a thing: deserted the army because he was terrified he'd die, and ultimately begs to be made into a vampire when his own death is imminent. (Before that, William had asked to turn him, but Red refused; he reneged when he was mortally wounded, though... but that's volume 3)

I don't think that counts as transhumanism. I think that's just a strong fear of death.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (6 days later)

So, she also prepared better in advance, thus allowing her victory.

Yeah, when she accepted his request to stay in her territory, she was probably hoping William would kill one of the humans in her territory and then she could confront him about it, and that would get things off on the wrong foot and lead to war. When that didn't happen, she had to go visit to see what she could do to push his buttons. Cassius was probably also in on it: not because he has any ill feelings towards William, but because if Elodia shows him up he owes her a favour, and if William kicks Elodia's butt then a local small-time rival is going to lose some of her territory and maybe one of his allies will be put back in. So he's in a win-win situation.

I think that's just a strong fear of death.

Yeah, you're right; I'm probably taking it that way because my interest in transhumanism is more motivated by fear of death than anything else.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (6 days later)

When that didn't happen, she had to go visit to see what she could do to push his buttons.

And, if all else fails, she could always kill one of her own humans and blame him. It's a suboptimal option (because what it William manages to prove it wasn't him?) but it's there.

Cassius was probably also in on it:

Every possible outcome is a win for him? Sounds like a good situation too be in. Of course, that means that for him the best situation is for William to win and come out of this owing him a favour...

Yeah, you're right; I'm probably taking it that way because my interest in transhumanism is more motivated by fear of death than anything else.

I think if Red had taken the original Vampiring offer, there would be a better argument.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (6 days later)

she could always kill one of her own humans and blame him

Yeah, you end up with a he said she said and I think he'd be believed over her due to their relative status levels. She's better off spreading bad rumours about him (which she also does following the war).

Of course, that means that for him the best situation is for William to win and come out of this owing him a favour...

Doesn't turn out that way, but William owed him a favour at least. And hey, if Cassius looks better compared to William, that's a win for Cassius. I imagine they're of similar ages and status.

I think if Red had taken the original Vampiring offer, there would be a better argument.

Yeah: better still, have him be like that guy in True Blood who sought out a vampire the second they came out of the coffin and managed to get turned because he wanted to live forever. Really transhumanist!Red should be saying to William, right away, "let me be a vampire oh please oh please".

Then again: vampirism has a ~50% failure rate, so maybe a transhumanist wouldn't take that until they'd lived a certain period of time.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (6 days later)

Yeah, you end up with a he said she said and I think he'd be believed over her due to their relative status levels. She's better off spreading bad rumours about him (which she also does following the war).

Eh, fair enough. It never went that far, anyhow; it turned out easier than expected to goad William into war.

Doesn't turn out that way, but William owed him a favour at least. And hey, if Cassius looks better compared to William, that's a win for Cassius. I imagine they're of similar ages and status.

That's the nice thing about win-win situations - even when your most preferred outcome doesn't happen, you still win!

Then again: vampirism has a ~50% failure rate, so maybe a transhumanist wouldn't take that until they'd lived a certain period of time.

Hmmmmm... at what point is taking a 50% chance on immortality worth it?

Tricky. Your expected number of years to live if you take the offer is half of forever (and half times infinity is still infinity). But for every two years you wait before taking the offer, your expected lifespan goes up by about a year (minus a factor to take into account the odds of accident during that year).

I guess it depends on the transhumanist.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (6 days later)

it turned out easier than expected to goad William into war.

THE POWER OF LOVE

aaand since it's been 24 hours since I posted an excerpt in this thread, here's a real rough draft of William's internal monologue immediately following the thing I sent you most recently as William is like "wait, what did I just do? why did I declare war? that is so out of character for me!".

at what point is taking a 50% chance on immortality worth it?

That's a tricky question: I mean, the second you get diagnosed with terminal cancer or something is probably a pretty good time. But you could get hit by a bus tomorrow, so you know... (or be driving at high speed while that friend of mine is texting in the next lane...)

---

excerpty time

---

William couldn’t believe it.

He had been so stupid.

Why did he trust that a human, so inexperienced, would be able to perform the cup service?

Why hadn’t he insisted on Lucia filling that role? Surely his human wouldn’t be able to mess up something as simple as heating blood? Why hadn’t that man - no, boy, what human can really be called a man? - why hadn’t that boy listened when he said what to do in the event of a spill?

He’d taught humans in less time. Never perfectly, but he hadn’t cared if they made mistakes. If they angled the cold cup too far to the left, he would let his counterpart take their prize; a small concession, perhaps a letter of recommendation, a small gift, a position of minor power in his kingdom, or his presence at an event he would otherwise have skipped.

He had not heard of a vampire requesting the human’s life as payment since - well, it had to be before that time, back before they had reason to be concerned about stealth.

And any other time, with any other man - there he was, thinking man about the boy again - he would have let Elodia have her prize, held the boy still as she tore at its neck, drank it dry, maybe even demanded that pleasure for himself in the negotiation.

And he had declared war! A war, when he was travelling and did not have access to all of his supplies, when his opponent had every advantage but experience.

Why had he done that? Without even a thought?

His reputation - his precious, long-cultivated reputation - would be in ruin for his stubbornness. He was known for his lack of self control, for disposing of janissaries at twice the normal rate, so much so that people did not lend him their favourites. What would people think, if the heard he denied a reasonable request? The opera had changed no minds, brought forth no new fashion; his involvement with Red would be a high scandal.

Elodia had a reputation, too. She liked to flex her political muscle, and killing Red - which she had every right to do, under the circumstances - certainly would accomplish that. She must have been thrilled when he declared war on her. Was that her plan all along, in making such a demand? Did she know of the details of his relationship with Red? That he’d do anything to keep that boy’s - that man’s - heart beating?

He doubted it. William hadn’t known himself, until he acted.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (6 days later)

That's a tricky question: I mean, the second you get diagnosed with terminal cancer or something is probably a pretty good time. But you could get hit by a bus tomorrow, so you know... (or be driving at high speed while that friend of mine is texting in the next lane...)

It is possible to treat the question mathematically. It comes down to how much you value being alive a few hundred years from now in comparison with how much you value being alive the day after tomorrow.

...I don't think Red would have the mathematical tools to approach it in that fashion, though. (Unless he has an interest in probability theory that he's been keeping quiet about).

[excerpt]

Interesting. Nothing really to nitpick at in here, though Red's promotion over the course of the thoughts from 'boy' to 'man' was done quite well. William's casual psychopathy comes out really well here (though he's right, leaving another vampire an opening like that was careless on his part - presumably force of habit not to care about what a mere human might be risking, though).

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (7 days later)

...I don't think Red would have the mathematical tools to approach it in that fashion, though. (Unless he has an interest in probability theory that he's been keeping quiet about)

He doesn't, unfortunately. I don't think steel mill workers in 1940s Ohio were known for their mathematical knowledge ;)

Thanks for the compliments on the excerpt! There's a little saying I heard once, if you'll excuse the vulgarity: "Writing's like taking a shit: sometimes it comes out right away with hardly any effort, and sometimes you strain and you strain and you eventually manage to force something out". That's definitely been my experience.

The "William's POV" excerpt basically came out, fully formed, once I started writing it and needed only minimal editing. I feel like when something like that happens it's almost always a really good passage - I guess because the characters are speaking to you, or whatever.

The whole story's getting a lot more balanced now, though the more I write the more I feel I need to add. I haven't even started re-proofreading the last third which I think will end up being expanded into the last half when it's all said and done. I already added another chapter that still isn't entirely finished but, taking into account all the extra little bits and pieces I've added, puts the extra content since I "finished" it in June last year at an additional 10%! It'll probably be 70k-80k words by the time it's done. Madness!~

u/CCC_037 [+2] (7 days later)

He doesn't, unfortunately. I don't think steel mill workers in 1940s Ohio were known for their mathematical knowledge ;)

Well, I've heard of a German patent office worker a decade or so before that who was well-known for his mathematical knowledge, so one never knows...

The "William's POV" excerpt basically came out, fully formed, once I started writing it

It might also be partially because of what you were writing. Internal monologues and direct character speech is generally a lot easier to work with than descriptions of complex scenes...

the more I write the more I feel I need to add.

Stop before you start rivalling Lord Of The Rings in length. You'll still have more to add, but there comes a point where the extra length is a detriment more than a benefit...

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (7 days later)

German patent office worker a decade or so before that who was well-known for his mathematical knowledge, so one never knows...

pfft... not to disparage laborers, but patent examining is a skilled job requiring a high level of intelligence, the comparison hardly holds!

Red does ultimately become a heck of a lot smarter.

Internal monologues and direct character speech is generally a lot easier to work with than descriptions of complex scenes...

Yeah... a lot of my writing forays end up with me researching whether hospital ships existed in the mediterranean, what Civitavecchia would have looked like in 1944, how much money a meal at a Roman "soup kitchen" would have cost in 1944... then checking the vintage floral dictionary on google books for what flowers would be best to put in this part of the book.

You'll still have more to add, but there comes a point where the extra length is a detriment more than a benefit...

I don't think I'm there yet, but I'm definitely going to keep that in mind. The stuff I've added has improved it a lot so far.

And don't worry, it's not going to rival LOTR any time soon: each novel in that series is 130,000+ words.

What I had in June 2017 was about 55,000 words and I think it's gotten up to 60-65,000 words (the new chapter is 5k alone...). I predict the final product will be 75,000-80,000, max. I'm planning on writing three novels in the series so if each is 80k words we're looking at 240k words total, which is about Order of the Phoenix length - for a set of three novels, each with its own "self-contained" story arc.

Actual predictions:

Volume One: 75k words

Volume Two: 60k words

Volume Three: 80k words

Epilogue?: 10k words

u/CCC_037 [+2] (7 days later)

pfft... not to disparage laborers, but patent examining is a skilled job requiring a high level of intelligence, the comparison hardly holds!

Yeah, and Einstein's a bit of a special case, even amongst patent office clerks.

Red does ultimately become a heck of a lot smarter.

Smarter or better educated? There's a massive big difference - a man who is poorly educated can still be frighteningly intelligent in certain ways.

Example: Jacob Zuma, current South African president. His official education went up to Standard Four. (That's still primary school). Yet no-one can deny that he's very sharp and knows his way around diplomacy and negotiation like nobody's business.

And don't worry, it's not going to rival LOTR any time soon: each novel in that series is 130,000+ words.

Actual predictions:

Volume One: 75k words

Volume Two: 60k words

Volume Three: 80k words

Epilogue?: 10k words

Hmmm. Sounds reasonable, as long as those words are all working towards the primary or secondary narrative arcs and not just wandering all over the landscape for no reason.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (7 days later)

Smarter or better educated?

Oh yeah. He was always smart, but gets better at that. But mostly it's the education, but some of that is because we're two university-educated millennials trying to write an uneducated 1940s steel worker: we give him a set of encyclopedias to be able to handwave a lot of it. (And because the day wouldn't be complete without another excerpt, here's the obligatory "Christmas Interlude" showing William giving them to Red).

Sounds reasonable, as long as those words are all working towards the primary or secondary narrative arcs and not just wandering all over the landscape for no reason.

That's the problem with romance: my husband's main problem with the first draft was that you didn't get any... romance content, like, you didn't get any scenes of the guys liking each other, so I added some romantic stuff in, and it's hard to say that's not vital when really them playing fetch with the dog and flirting isn't actually plot relevant, except in that if there were no such scenes there's nothing that makes you believe an actual romance is occurring.

So it's kind of hard to toe that line, having some meaningful romantic scenes but also keeping it tight and snappy. I think I erred too much on the "tight and snappy" side last time, partly because I haven't really written romance stuff before in a way that required detailed description, so it was kind of hard to do. (And I mean like... is someone holding someone's hand, is the hand around the waist, how do you describe kissing, etc: not "how many synonyms can I think of for genitals")

---

Christmas Eve, 1944

There hadn’t been much in the way of decoration, but that was fairly typical across all of Europe right now. People made do.

Red had relocated a small pine tree into the living room and decorated it sparsely. There had been more decorations before, handmade, but thrown away. Red didn’t mention it.

When William woke at sunset, Red was there, as he always was. This time he was reading.

“Good evening, my dear.”

Red set his book on his lap to stroke William’s hair. “Did you sleep well?”

“I did.”

Red paused for a moment, then retrieved something from the dresser drawer. A package about six inches by three inches, wrapped in paper that was decorated in drawings of spindle flowers. Simple graphite on plain paper. It was obviously not something Red drew. “I got you something.”

“Oh? Thank you.” William took the package, examining the paper as he untied the string. It contained a vase, six inches in height, porcelain covered in a dazzling glaze that shone in green, black and silver. Pewter leaves encircled the mouth and base of the vase.

His mind automatically interrogated the vase for meaning: everything about it came together to tell of a young romance that the giver wished to pursue to its fullest extent. The colours (the shade of green: respect and affection; the proportion of black: something new; the hint of silver: something highly valued), the shape (a slight teardrop: matters of the heart), and even the size (proportional to a hand in height and width: a desire to work). The angle of the leaves was even appropriately chosen for a gift given in recognition of the winter solstice.

To Red, William was studying the vase closely, with the same care he looked over anything else he picked up on a shopping trip; or with the same keen eye he studied the array of letters and packages other vampires sent him.

“This is absolutely exquisite. Thank you.” He said, his voice full of sincerity.

“You’re welcome. I’m glad you like it.”

William paused. “If you don’t mind getting out of bed, I can give you your gift, as well.”

“Sure. Did you want me to get changed?” Red asked, getting out of the warm bed; William had a demeaning habit of making major or minute adjustments to his clothing on anything that William deemed an important occasion. It was harmless, if irritating.

William glanced at the extensive creases on Red’s shirt. “If you could change your shirt. The striped green one, if it is pressed.” He said, climbing out of bed and pulling on a pair of navy pants.

“It is, no thanks to that steam iron you like so much.” Red grinned, unbuttoning his shirt.

“Good.” William pulled his own shirt on and selected a belt. Despite the weather, he wore short sleeves.

“How do I look?” Red grinned, placing his hands on his hips and thrusting his chest out.

“Perfect. Now come.” William led Red to the store room, where all his trunks and the dozens of things Red had bought for him were kept. He knelt beside one of the trunks, unlocked it carefully, and fished out what looked like a full Encyclopaedia Britannica. He pulled out five or six volumes at a time, stacking them neatly on top of another trunk.

“Unfortunately, I didn’t think to wrap them.”

Red is silent, one arm folded across his chest and the other pressed gently against his mouth. “How could you have? How many are there?”

“Twenty-nine volumes in all.”

Red walked up to William, and kissed him on the cheek. “I love it. Thank you.”

u/CCC_037 [+2] (8 days later)

But mostly it's the education, but some of that is because we're two university-educated millennials trying to write an uneducated 1940s steel worker

'Smart but uneducated' is a difficult writing target. Worse yet is 'smart but uneducated and has read an entire encyclopedia set cover to cover'. (But if you've ever read The Wee Free Men, then Tiffany Aching makes a good example of that category, I think).

Smart characters can make leaps of logic and infer correctly, especially in fields with which they are familiar.

Uneducated characters have a lot of bad assumptions about things, especially things about which they know nothing - but, more insidiously, they don't know how to think critically, how to structure their logic, how to ask meaningful questions. Often, an uneducated character will work by heuristic, guesswork, and pseudoscience.

And then, if he's read through an entire encyclopedia, that will fix gaps in his knowledge - to an extent. Which means he'll be able to trot out the occasional piece of completely accurate scientific knowledge - but the odds are he still won't know how to structure thoughts, or ask questions, and he might very well completely fail to understand some basic knowledge (like negative numbers, or fractions). (If you want to get around that, then I'd suggest having William spend some parts of the latter 1940s tutoring him off-screen - it's very hard to learn how to think from a book, and much easier in person).

I mean, there's hundreds of ways to write any of those - but that's where I'd start.

So it's kind of hard to toe that line, having some meaningful romantic scenes but also keeping it tight and snappy.

You're writing a romance. Romantic scenes are probably expected at some point. Besides, you're establishing important parts of your main characters' personalities.

But if you ever find yourself writing a few thousand words about Cassius playing fetch with his dog, you may need to stop and think about that for a few minutes.

---

“Unfortunately, I didn’t think to wrap them.”

Didn't think to wrap them? With the attention to detail that you've written into your vampires, the hundred notes of meaning in every little thing?

I think William's lying here. He probably did think to wrap them, he just decided not to (perhaps due to a wartime lack of wrapping paper) and he's making an excuse to avoid discussing the matter.

As far as descriptions go, something I've noticed in previous excerpts as well - you mention things that can be seen and only things that can be seen. There is no scent of pine near the tree; Red's gift doesn't crinkle with wrapping paper and William doesn't notice the texture of the glaze on the vase nor the pitch of the note it sounds when sharply struck by a fingernail. The lock on his trunk does not click open, the encyclopedias he moves do not thump to the ground.

Humans have five senses - I can't figure out a way to wrangle 'taste' into this passage, but you should at least use something more than 'sight'. (No, having conversation doesn't count for 'hearing'. You need background sounds).

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (8 days later)

Worse yet is 'smart but uneducated and has read an entire encyclopedia set cover to cover'

Nah, I imagine him looking through the encyclopaedia like I look through wikipedia: reading an interesting article and then bouncing around to another interesting article and so on. When things come up (e.g. the age of Belgium) he scurries off to look them up.

I'd suggest having William spend some parts of the latter 1940s tutoring him off-screen

William's already helping him learn French so general "logic" can easily be part of these lessons. (Now I'm wondering: do the readers want to see a tutoring session? Probably not)

But if you ever find yourself writing a few thousand words about Cassius playing fetch with his dog, you may need to stop and think about that for a few minutes.

Any such scenes (like Cassius talking to Yolande, that I shared earlier) would be relegated to one-page interludes and have at least some sort of purpose, don't worry.

Didn't think to wrap them? ... I think William's lying here

Good catch!

I'm of two minds why the presents weren't wrapped:

• William didn't think he and Red would exchange gifts so had to panic and come up with the encyclopaedia thing at the last minute: but gift-giving has been part of winter solstice/christian traditions for a very long time, since before William was born, so that doesn't seem to pass muster as a "he wasn't aware of it" thing. But it might be a status thing: exchanging gifts obviously has a special meaning in vampire society, and perhaps he didn't want to "do Red that honour" because they "weren't that serious", but then Red's gift touched him so much he changed his mind

• William thought that because when Red described the "christmas custom", he didn't mention gift-giving as being an important component ("Family lunch, usually. My mother and her brother take turns hosting. Mom does a dinner Christmas Eve, too, just for Dorothy and me.")

I'm leaning towards the first, with the "status" explanation as to why William didn't plan on it. Not that it matters as the reader will likely never find out.

you mention things that can be seen and only things that can be seen

Yeah, you've pointed that out before and it had a big impact on my writing - I even found a coffee taste wheel that coffee tasters (like wine tasters) use, to try and describe the taste of coffee. But it's left by the wayside a bit. It's hard because I think very visually! I definitely have done it before, but it's so hard to describe smells, to use something that I can ctrl+F. A bunch of out of context excerpts below, I feel like they're super repetitive, that I'm just saying "the basil smelled like basil" or using a generic adjective ("acrid" or "heavy" or "sweet"). I wish we spoke that Malaysian language that has words that describe smells as well as English describes colours.

~~

After one hard day, Red was sitting on the couch while William kneeled on the stone floor. William had a small jar of scented oil, bowl of water, and some clean towels on the ground beside him. William rubbing Red’s feet had been a normal enough part of their routine, but not the half hour every night that William had insisted on lately.

“Your feet are getting worse. You should rest for a few days.” William had nearly finished the massage; he was firmly kneading on Red’s calf muscles. The warm, earthy smell of the oil hung in the air.

> This morning Red felt the early morning air falling crisp and fresh upon his senses in a way never had before. He could smell the noxious scent of garbage, the fresh dew, the faint scent of orange blossoms. He heard the distant sound of automobiles being driven by those who could spare the gasoline. Everything felt sharper, crisper. He could feel the cobblestones under his feet through the thick soles of his shoes. 

William woke with Red lying next to him. Red lay on his own arm, eyes closed, gently stroking William’s hair. He smelled of coffee and congealed blood and strong soap and Chestnut.

> Back at the house, William cooked while Red rinsed the sea water from himself and Chestnut. It was Red’s last meal before the sun rose; before it was time for bed. The rich smell of basil filled the air. It was routine. It was pleasant.

It felt as though William had some sort of rash. With the sharpened senses that were nature’s payment for allowing a vampire to feed from him, Red could smell something was off: a faint, burned smell. He brought his right hand to his nose and he could smell it, stronger. The smell of a campfire; burning pine. And the rank smell of cooked flesh.

> When it was next time for William to feed, Red held him for an unreasonably long time before he would let him leave. When he returned, if the thick smell of coffee and the countless books strewn about the place were anything to go by, Red had spent the entire time sitting in the lounge room anxiously awaiting his return.

“I didn’t do anything.” Red grumbled, his voice harsher than usual. He picked up the bottle in his right hand and took another swig. He didn’t flinch at the taste, even though the acrid smell of the whiskey filled the room as he spoke. “It was an accident.”

> “Don’t worry. You’ll do great. I’m just warming the blood up now. Come on, have a look.” She beckoned him over. He moved to stand beside her. The blood was thick and dark and he could feel its fetid copper odour sticking to the roof of his mouth. He wondered if he would ever get used to it. He thought of Lucia: no doubt, after a hundred years, he would.

> “Wow. I’ve never seen blood like that before.” Red tried not to pay attention to the images of his landing in Italy that came to mind at the sight and smell of this warm blood.

~~~

>“Thank you.” Red murmured automatically, taking another sip of his wine; heavy, soft, and smokey. “You want some of this? It’s pretty good. I think. I don’t really get wine.”

>“I’ll try some if you want.” He said, smiling.

>“Do you want spaghetti for dinner? I’ve never actually seen you eat, so I wasn’t sure if I should make you some or not.” He handed Julias his glass.

>“I live on sunlight.” He replied, moving the glass in a small circle beneath his nose as he took in the ashy smell of the drink. “But I’m happy to join you for dinner if you want.”

>“Oh, don’t eat on my account.” Red waved it off as Julias took a sip of the wine; it was metallic and earthy. “Is it like with William, where if you eat it you have to throw it up again?”

u/CCC_037 [+2] (8 days later)

William didn't think he and Red would exchange gifts so had to panic and come up with the encyclopaedia thing at the last minute

This makes sense - not that he's unaware of gift-giving, but that he's unaware that they, specifically, would be giving gifts.

And if you want to hint at this to the reader - then the box in which the encyclopedias are found is old and covered in dust, the encyclopedias themselves are from a decade or two before the date at the time, and, of course, they aren't wrapped.

(Now I'm wondering: do the readers want to see a tutoring session? Probably not)

Probably not; but yes, it makes sense for William to demonstrate and teach thinking skills in such a situation.

But it's left by the wayside a bit. It's hard because I think very visually!

Yeah, I understand that. Lots of people do think visually - but incorporating the other senses goes a long way towards making your scenes feel more real.

[sense excerpts]

A good start. (Though, in that last excerpt, did the wine change flavour between the start and the end of the excerpt?) When it comes to smells, there's nothing wrong with saying that the pine smells like pine - people know what pine smells like, and the mention of the scent thereof will remind them of the smell.

But a few mentions here and there, while a good start, are nothing more than a start. The background sounds, scents, smells, tastes and textures (did you ever do anything with the sense of touch?) ideally need to run through the whole work, appearing in most descriptive passages.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (8 days later)

incorporating the other senses goes a long way towards making your scenes feel more real

Absolutely. My mythical coauthor is the best for this, which is another reason I can't just finish this story on my own (and if I do write the werewolf story on my own - which is not looking likely at the moment because I won't have time - it's probably going to miss a heck of a lot of magic).

that last excerpt, did the wine change flavour between the start and the end of the excerpt?

More like, what a human tastes when they drink wine is very different to what a gargoyle made out of stone tastes when they drink wine :).

[more senses] ideally need to run through the whole work, appearing in most descriptive passages.

I just need to remember to put them in, and that's where I struggle I guess: I forget to include them as I don't imagine them. I can think about it and work out what it probably felt/smelled like but it's not in my image. So I need to try to think of a trigger that will make me go "put some more senses in there"...

did you ever do anything with the sense of touch?

Not much at all... Let's have a look....

>He grabbed at the catch, which felt colder than the others, and opened the trunk.

With a start, Red felt something rough on William’s back. Red broke the kiss, eyebrows narrowed slightly as he focused on what he felt, slipping his right hand under William’s shirt. It felt as though William had some sort of rash.

> "Hm. Probably not. He's not blonde, is he?" Red's  entire head felt cold and numb, hoping despite himself.

~~~

> The creature’s skin, though it remained the colour and texture of sandstone, moved organically as the creature did. Its mouth was deep, dark, and wet looking.

~~~

> He was surprised at his own reaction. He wanted to know how to find him. He wanted to see him again. Perhaps just to remember what he looked like. To remember how it felt to be held in his big, strong arms. To feel the scratchy material of his shirt and smell that awful cologne of his again. And most of all, to have that indescribable feeling of being at the centre of a giant’s world.

~~~

> The shrouded woman watched Red intently as he ran his hand over the lid of one, feeling the grain, thinking. “They please you?”

~~~

> Lucia moved to stand behind Red, holding her dagger to his neck. The blood from her hand started staining his new suit. He could feel the hair on the back of his neck begin to get stained with his sweat.

~~~

There's even a section where I say "red can feel the blade on his neck" but I didn't even add that the blade was cold, and I'm sure if I wanted to be extra evocative I could say "he felt the cold bite of the blade against the soft skin of his neck" or something. I should try that!

u/CCC_037 [+2] (8 days later)

I just need to remember to put them in, and that's where I struggle I guess: I forget to include them as I don't imagine them.

It's not an uncommon thing - sight is a human's major sense.

Hmmmm... here's a thought. Just as a writing exercise, why not write one entire scene from the viewpoint of a blind person? Either recently blind, or spending the entire scene blindfolded, or blind from birth - doesn't really matter. The intent is to force you into writing a scene in which only the other senses can be used to give useful information.

Hopefully, some part of the habit will stick.

[touch examples]

Alright, most of those are great. There's a couple that might or might not benefit from a slight rephrasing ("feeling the roughness of the grain" instead of "feeling the grain" in the second-last one is a little more tactile, while "he could feel the sweat running down the back of his neck, soaking his collar" might work better in the last case (I originally thought "he could feel the sweat staining the hair on the back of his neck" was a little snappier than the original line, then I saw that it involved the word 'staining' twice in two sentences and started asking myself whether or not sweat could stain hair, so I tweaked it a second time))

There's even a section where I say "red can feel the blade on his neck" but I didn't even add that the blade was cold, and I'm sure if I wanted to be extra evocative I could say "he felt the cold bite of the blade against the soft skin of his neck" or something. I should try that!

You should. I like 'cold bite', it's a very nice description in only a few words.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (9 days later)

Thanks for that. I'm hoping to do some more writing today so I'll try and get some more focus on other senses. I think I'll try and over-do it because it probably won't be overdone.

At the moment I'm tossing up between different ideas for "between chapter interludes" that I've started writing. The interludes provide sort of... bonus information that doesn't really fit elsewhere. I have used one to advance the plot (that christmas scene was an interlude), but that's more the exception than the rule. (Other interludes you've read: the towel folding scene, the scene with Cassius and Yolande, William's inner monologue).

The one I'm struggling with at the moment - because I have so many ideas, all different - is the interlude that goes between two chapters where a six month time skip takes place.

The interlude happens after the obligatory-for-a-romance-novel scene where the lovers break up; and I think that chapter ends perfectly, so I guess that's why I'm having a hard time committing to an interlude.

The next chapter is basically, "Red moved back to Columbus, and this is what it was like for him to live there now". I think it doesn't start very strong, which is another reason I'm probably having a hard time committing to an interlude. Maybe I should rewrite that chapter start and incorporate some elements I am considering relegating into an interlude.

Anyway... here's the interlude ideas I'm tossing up between:

• Julias and Red packing, joking around, Julias asking about Columbus, maybe Red asking about his son, Greece, etc? (pros: mood whiplash, which I personally love; cons: this would take place before the end of the previous chapter and though I don't mind whether the interludes make temporal sense, so far they all do, except for one which is a flashback to years earlier not days earlier)

• Could do Red’s mother’s funeral or something to double down on the sombre mood and add dramatic irony; but the audience finds out like on the third paragraph of the next chapter.

• Red saying goodbye to someone in Corsica (no townspeople the readers will be invested in enough to care about this)

• Transcript of a letter that Red sends home to announce his return? (this would also allow him to communicate his "you thought I died in the war but I have been secretly living in Corsica all this time" excuse, whatever that is: but it would require actually writing in 1940s style which I think would be more work than it's worth?)

• Red's reunion with his sister (Red meeting her at the station / her coming to meet him in New York - her meeting him in New York could be interesting, she can tell him she’s pregnant, it’ll be a bit of a bookend for them with NY and pregnancy, since the only other time we've seen her she was a teenager and he was helping her go to NY for an abortion?)

• Something with William: inner monologue, self-deception about how he really doesn't care that Red's gone but he actually cares a hell of a lot

---

I think writing this out has given me my answer: I need to rewrite the beginning of the "Red goes home" chapter to include his reunion with his sister in NY, and then do the time skip, then continue with the sort of stuff that's already there. Then the interlude can either be Red's mum's funeral or William's inner monologue. I've already done a William inner monologue some mere two chapters / 11,000 words earlier so it might be too soon for that from a structural point of view. You know, it'll seem repetitive.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (9 days later)

I think I'll try and over-do it because it probably won't be overdone.

It is possible to overdo it - but I agree with you. It probably won't be overdone.

[chapter interludes]

Mixing and matching a few of the ideas you've suggested I think I can suggest a few more (I have no idea whether or not the first of these is in any way practical given the timeline):

• Red's farewell to Julias - after Julias turns up unexpectedly at the station with a small bag (containing, perhaps, Red's toothbrush or some similar small items and a small portrait (because you can't photograph vampires) of William for Red to either keep or dramatically throw out of the train window, depending on scene requirements). Julias might make some mention of how he's been deliberately avoiding William ever since the fight specifically so he couldn't be ordered not to say goodbye.

• Julias' inner monologue - which, to highlight the somewhat alien way he thinks, is a highly structured series of IF-THEN statements (and other pseudocode) which constantly reference William's projected happiness and try to increase it. Strongly contrasts with William's inner monologue, and helps to drive home that Julias is not and never was human.

Transcript of a letter that Red sends home to announce his return? (this would also allow him to communicate his "you thought I died in the war but I have been secretly living in Corsica all this time" excuse, whatever that is: but it would require actually writing in 1940s style which I think would be more work than it's worth?)

Keep in mind that deserters were pretty reviled during the war. Short of claiming that he lost his memory due to a war injury to the head and only got it back recently, he's going to be in trouble when he goes home. (And even with the memory excuse, people are going to want to see his scar).

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (9 days later)

oh my god, I love the idea of Julias' inner monologue: I knew I had a reason for asking you! It's going to be a giant undertaking, to get INTO his head, but it will be so very, very worthwhile. It's not mood whiplash, it's not doubling down: it's going to be very, very neutral. I won't have a chance to sketch it out today but I would value your input especially highly on that scene.

Keep in mind that deserters were pretty reviled during the war. Short of claiming that he lost his memory due to a war injury to the head and only got it back recently, he's going to be in trouble when he goes home. (And even with the memory excuse, people are going to want to see his scar).

Yeah; he gets a new identity, a French immigrant, that passes muster with most. His sister is the main one, and she is just happy he's alive, because she knew how scared he was to go and all. Plus, their mother died only a few months earlier so she's just happy not to be alone.

I do have him living in his sister's house though (read: the family home). It's probably really unrealistic, now I think about it: the neighbours would recognise him. Ugh.

"Fortunately", Red's entire regiment was KIA (Battle of Cisterna) very soon after he deserted, so it might not have gotten reported.

Options:

• Keep it as-is: i.e. unrealistic (he moves back home, people who used to know him know he's back but the cover story is he's a French immigrant and keep his secret; strangers believe the French immigrant story)

• Avoid the problem by having he and his sister living in some other city (e.g. New York) where nobody knows him (not realistic: if his mum is dead, his sister is probably living in her house? Though we could say that the memories of her dead brother and dead mother were too much so she moved into her husband's uncle's home. Also I want William to make a friendship with a smalltime vampire who is human-sympathiser, so new york specifically would not be a good choice, but maybe somewhere like Cincinnati or whatever would work)

• Acknowledge it because it would only take two lines: "Red tried to keep a low profile, knowing how deserters were treated. People still recognised him though, and there were a few establishments where he wasn't served. On the whole, the town was large enough that he was able to carve out some places that had only met Reynaud Dubois, and never Reginald Wilkins. After all, Reginald Wilkins never went to the Saturday antiques market; Reynaud Dubois was there every week."

• He says he was in a prison camp and just got released: he comes back just as the war ends, so that means something. He refuses to talk about the details, explaining it away as shell shock (or the most appropriate name for PTSD in the 1940s).

• Red is in disguise and does it well: he bleaches his hair blonde or something, pretends to speak very little English, etc.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (9 days later)

I won't have a chance to sketch it out today but I would value your input especially highly on that scene.

I'll look forward to it. Have fun!

Keep it as-is: i.e. unrealistic

"Unrealistic" is enough of a reason to try to avoid this one.

Avoid the problem by having he and his sister living in some other city (e.g. New York) where nobody knows him

More plausible. Red and his sister are only one rumour away from Trouble, though, and Sister is risking her entire reputation by supporting him. (Might be a good source of tension).

Acknowledge it because it would only take two lines

The people who recognised him would likely make a point of informing those who did not. People can be very vindictive, and deserters would be the target of a lot of that.

The civilised ones would stop at not serving him. The less civilised ones (especially those whose relatives died in the war who are displacing their anger onto Red) wouldn't stop there - they'd make genuine attempts to drive him out of town, and he'd probably need to clean off the walls of his sister's house every day.

He says he was in a prison camp and just got released: he comes back just as the war ends, so that means something. He refuses to talk about the details, explaining it away as shell shock (or the most appropriate name for PTSD in the 1940s).

This is my favourite of the various options. With his division having been killed, he is thought dead - notice of his death had been delivered to his family some time ago. He sneaks back home, without the army noticing, and claims to have been a POW (prisoner of war) for the intervening time. Everyone recognises him, but no-one knows he's a deserter, so they're all really happy to see him back (perhaps a local shopkeeper, whose son actually did die in the war, gives Red occasional little items for free because he had spent so long 'fighting the good fight')

Red is in disguise and does it well: he bleaches his hair blonde or something, pretends to speak very little English, etc.

Possible - he would need to rent a spare room from his sister - but people are going to be suspicious.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (10 days later)

perhaps a local shopkeeper, whose son actually did die in the war, gives Red occasional little items for free because he had spent so long 'fighting the good fight'

Ahhh shit, I have the perfect character to put that onto too!

I'm glad you like the POW idea: it does seem to work the best. I'm not sure how quickly after the surrender that POWs actually ended up home, though. Red leaves Corsica basically one week after the official surrender.... okay I just looked it up, it seems like POWs were making their way home within 6 months, so Red getting there soon after is not going to be too unbelievable. It does seem as though some POWs were able to send letters home and whatnot, but I'm sure that not all of them got the opportunity.

I think the most believable cover story, for the timeline and everything, is that Red escaped his POW camp, bummed around Europe for a while, and then returned to America once the war was over and he was safe from the Germans. It looks like escapes from POW camps were rare but not unheard of, and there were even some mass escapes.

I wonder whether, if Red was like, "look, I escaped about six months ago, but I don't want to talk about how I did it or where I was.", whether townspeople would pressure him to, you know, announce it and get a purple heart or whatever or whether they'd be understanding of his request for privacy?

It's probably much of a muchness: I'm not doing any deep conversations with Red and townspeople about his time in the "POW camp", so the details can be left vague as Red probably left them. I'm guessing, realistically speaking, people who eagerly asked Red for details of what the POW camp was like, when met with grunts and "I don't want to talk about it - battle fatigue(1940s!PTSD)", wouldn't go any further and there might be rumours about him escaping "because he got back a lot earlier than Jim Johnson, who was in one of the nazi camps, don't you know"/"and I got a look at his identification card and it had some French name on it, I think he escaped/is trying to hide from the nazis"/"he says he learned French from other prisoners, but I think he was hiding in Belgium for a while. Who can blame him: little Reginald was always so jumpy, he probably had no idea how to contact the Americans"; but non substantiated.

> [if he just disguised himself as a French immigrant] he would need to rent a spare room from his sister - but people are going to be suspicious.

Yeah... of a French guy who looks like a blonde version of her brother moving in to her house even though she never had a room up for rent and anyway her husband has a good job as a clerk do they really need a boarder??

Anyway... here's my first pass at the Julias-POV interlude. It doesn't sit quite right with me, I'm not sure about the structure, and I'll need to have someone read it along with the stuff around it to work out how it flows "artistically", but hey... here we are, as promised!

---

Problem: Master is upset that romantic object is gone.

.

Solution: Retrieve romantic object by force.

Major objection: Master said not to. (UNACCEPTABLE)

Minor objection: Force may injure romantic object; this will upset master. (ACCEPTABLE)

Noted: Force may injure romantic object; this will upset romantic object. (ACCEPTABLE)

Conclusion: Master’s utility is not sufficiently low to override his orders.

.

Solution: Falsely repair relationship by forging letters.

Major objection: High risk of being found out by master: resulting distrust (UNACCEPTABLE)

Major objection: Small risk of being found out by other vampire: being fooled by slave would have major impacts to master’s reputation (UNACCEPTABLE)

Major objection: If successful, ruse will be short-lived before master tries to visit romantic object, at which point I am found out (UNACCEPTABLE)

Conclusion: Continue to ask questions about their relationship so that I may forge letters in a few decades if appropriate.

.

Solution: Stage accident to kill romantic object

Major objection: Master will be distressed at loss of romantic object (UNACCEPTABLE)

-- Observed Vampire Happiness Model:

-- Mean negative utilons following breakup with human romantic object (8)

-- Mean negative utilons following death of human romantic object (172)

-- Mean negative utilons following death of human former romantic object (19)

Fatal objection: Master likely to be more upset at death than status quo

.

Solution: Kill master

Fatal objection: Master’s utility is not sufficiently low (UNACCEPTABLE)

.

Solution: Present self to master as new romantic object

Major objection: Master’s speech and body language does not imply any level of interest (UNACCPETABLE)

Objection: Relationship between vampires and slaves considered low-status (ACCEPTABLE)

Risk: Master may not be comfortable giving me further orders if proposition fails (UNACCPETABLE)

Noted: Being master’s romantic object will not satisfy my preferences (ACCEPTABLE)

.

Solution: Present new romantic object to master.

Noted: Unfamiliar with master’s preferences. (ACCEPTABLE)

Conclusion: Candidate solution. Will attempt to determine best romantic object.

---

I originally had their names instead of 'master' and 'romantic object' but I love how impersonal it is like this; but maybe that'd be hard for readers to understand?

(the dots are just to make Reddit format it properly)

u/CCC_037 [+2] (10 days later)

I'm glad you like the POW idea: it does seem to work the best. I'm not sure how quickly after the surrender that POWs actually ended up home, though. Red leaves Corsica basically one week after the official surrender....

In the 1940s, there wasn't anything nearly like modern communications - Red himself would probably be the best source of information on the process of POW reinstatement in the entire village in any case. (Unless a retired army officer comes through a year or so down the line and starts picking holes in Red's story).

So, unless he already has a reputation for being untrustworthy, it doesn't matter if he's exactly on time or not...

I wonder whether, if Red was like, "look, I escaped about six months ago, but I don't want to talk about how I did it or where I was.", whether townspeople would pressure him to, you know, announce it and get a purple heart or whatever or whether they'd be understanding of his request for privacy?

I imagine some would pressure him and some would not.

It's probably much of a muchness: I'm not doing any deep conversations with Red and townspeople about his time in the "POW camp", so the details can be left vague as Red probably left them. I'm guessing, realistically speaking, people who eagerly asked Red for details of what the POW camp was like, when met with grunts and "I don't want to talk about it - battle fatigue(1940s!PTSD)", wouldn't go any further and there might be rumours about him escaping "because he got back a lot earlier than Jim Johnson, who was in one of the nazi camps, don't you know"/"and I got a look at his identification card and it had some French name on it, I think he escaped/is trying to hide from the nazis"/"he says he learned French from other prisoners, but I think he was hiding in Belgium for a while. Who can blame him: little Reginald was always so jumpy, he probably had no idea how to contact the Americans"; but non substantiated.

Yep. All looks good.

[Julias' interlude]

Some other solutions for consideration:

• Repair relationship by forging a letter of apology from William to Red (and sending it to Red)

• Stage accident(s) to kill anyone else Romantic Object gets close to in order to force him back (impractical amount of travelling to/from America involved)

As another note; Julias may be unfamiliar with Master's preferences, but Red clearly fulfilled them. So candidates for 'new romantic object' should start out with 'similar appearance/personality to former romantic object' and work from there.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (10 days later)

Unless a retired army officer comes through a year or so down the line and starts picking holes in Red's story

And poor Red, never has a time when he can truly relax; always scared an officer is around the next corner. Full of guilt. :(

Some other solutions for consideration:

Good ones! I don't want to make it too long (try not to make the interludes more than a page), but they're definitely ones to consider. I'm probably going to write up all the solutions I can think of and then edit the "worst ones" out.

Structurally, do you think it's a good way to present the thought process? Or should I go for something more "organic"? I think I can't do "organic" because the repetiveness of the "solution/objection/conclusion" paradigm is acceptable in the form it's in there, but writing it out would add so much words and space and fluff and make it seem more repetitive.

I'm also not sure what place to end it on. e.g. if I end the interlude on Julias considering - even if rejecting - the "present himself as love object" angle, then people will think a love triangle is happening. (A friend was shocked that Julias did not turn out to be a love triangle guy, even without Julias considering smooching William).

Hmmmm. I'll think on it some more, maybe try a different structure.

So candidates for 'new romantic object' should start out with 'similar appearance/personality to former romantic object' and work from there.

Great... now I want to write an interlude of Julias trawling whatever passed for gay clubs in 1940s Europe for men who resembled Red, interviewing them, and then discarding most of them; but then gently guiding William to "just bump into" whichever candidate Julias most preferred. He'd then take note of William's reactions and refine his choices.

Of course he'd be doing it just rarely enough that William didn't notice anything bad by it.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (10 days later)

And poor Red, never has a time when he can truly relax; always scared an officer is around the next corner. Full of guilt. :(

That sounds about right, yes. And extra guilt every time someone gives him a free strawberry to thank him for his loyal service, and he tries to politely refuse it, and then they think he's just being modest and he ends up with even more free strawberries...

Structurally, do you think it's a good way to present the thought process? Or should I go for something more "organic"?

Hmmm. I don't think it's a bad way to present the thought process.

One idea that occurs to me is to format it in the shape of 'solutions' and 'subsolutions'. For example, the solution 'repair relationship between Master and Romantic Object' might have subsolutions like 'By faking a letter from Master to Romantic Object' or 'By persuading Master to write letter to Romantic Object' or 'By imitating Master's voice on telephone to Romantic Object' and so on.

Great... now I want to write an interlude of Julias trawling whatever passed for gay clubs in 1940s Europe for men who resembled Red, interviewing them, and then discarding most of them; but then gently guiding William to "just bump into" whichever candidate Julias most preferred. He'd then take note of William's reactions and refine his choices.

And then, of course, the immediate reaction is that William is reminded of Red and ends up less happy, at least for the rest of the day. And then Julias notes down "somewhat less similar to previous Romantic Object" and continues... also observing William's reaction to the people he genuinely does accidentally bump into, in the hope of better understanding Master's preferences...

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (10 days later)

format it in the shape of 'solutions' and 'subsolutions'.

That's a good one! I'll chew on that a bit. Probably will pester you with a new draft in a few days, unless I whip something up in the next half hour.

William is reminded of Red and ends up less happy, at least for the rest of the day

oh my god that's making my heart hurt :(. I didn't sign up to feel these feelings :( :( :(

u/CCC_037 [+2] (12 days later)

That's a good one! I'll chew on that a bit. Probably will pester you with a new draft in a few days, unless I whip something up in the next half hour.

Okie dokie lokie!

oh my god that's making my heart hurt :(. I didn't sign up to feel these feelings :( :( :(

You're the one who wrote the story, set up the situation, created the characters. I think that means you did sign up for them.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (12 days later)

You're the one who wrote the story, set up the situation, created the characters. I think that means you did sign up for them.

Noooo I signed up for them to kiss and love each other forever :( not the sad ones

u/CCC_037 [+2] (12 days later)

The sad ones are still part of the story, ma'am. It's a package deal.

u/MagicWeasel [+3] Cheela Astronaut (13 days later)

Was thinking more about Julias (gargoyle) last night (and discussing with Computer Scientist/Psychologist Partner). I've determined some more stuff about him - namely, he's not more intelligent than an intelligent human, and he probably thinks in a humanlike way. He doesn't "think like a computer", and he's not like an Asimovian robot who physically can't disobey a human: he is more a person with a very rigid and inhuman moral framework and different wants/needs. It doesn't change his behaviour in any way; it actually brings his description closer to what I actually think of him as. So that's good.

So I'm going to rewrite the interlude to be more like the way a human would think, because the fact he's prioritising things differently is enough.

The "pseudocode" stuff I wrote isn't what a computer would actually think like (partner has expertise in AI), so yeah, it's a non-starter either way, and writing something that looks like an AI decision tree would not be as interesting and/or would be super long.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (13 days later)

I've determined some more stuff about him - namely, he's not more intelligent than an intelligent human, and he probably thinks in a humanlike way.

That will make him a good deal easier to write.

He doesn't "think like a computer"

Objection, implicit assumption. There is not just one way to think like a computer.

Yes, on the most basic level, a computer could be said to 'think' in binary, and there are very well-known rules regarding how one goes about that. In the same manner, though, a human can be said to 'think' in terms of complex chemical reactions in the brain. It's true, but you need to step back through several layers of abstraction before you get to anything resembling thoughts.

Even given current AI models, there's still not just one way to 'think like a computer'. Non-recursive neural networks 'think' in a very different way to fuzzy-logic expert systems, which in turn are very different to recursive neural networks - and you can never be completely sure what you're going to end up with when you start messing with evolutionary algorithms (within bounds, of course). (I'm not sure that fuzzy-logic expert systems really even count as AI; that's more like plain probability theory and heuristics turned into code).

And what with all of that, we still haven't cracked the secret behind actual, thinking general-purpose AI yet. (Though our investigations have revealed some interesting things about the human brain in the process, we still haven't figured out the difference between a neural network - which we can do - and a neural network that thinks - which we have inside our heads. And even the neural networks inside our heads are practically all different). Thus, actual, thinking AI might think in a completely different way to what we would expect.

On top of that, Julias is an ancient Atlantean AI, made by technology so advanced that it's indistinguishable from magic. There's no reason to think he's bound by the various conventions of modern computing at all.

In short, Julias can think in absolutely any way you want him to, and you can claim with a straight face that that is exactly how all intelligent Atlantean computers thought. There's just so many variables and unknowns in there to fiddle with...

and he's not like an Asimovian robot who physically can't disobey a human

Even the Asimovian robots could physically disobey a human... under certain clearly defined circumstances. But I see your point.

he is more a person with a very rigid and inhuman moral framework and different wants/needs.

Perfectly valid possibility for an ancient Atlantean AI.

So I'm going to rewrite the interlude to be more like the way a human would think, because the fact he's prioritising things differently is enough.

That can be interesting, too.

I don't know if you're familiar with the Chanur series, by C.J. Cherryh? I ask because she does a brilliant job of getting inside the heads of non-human characters (in her case, aliens, not robots) and driving a lot of her plotlines off the differences between how different species habitually think.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (14 days later)

Even given current AI models, there's still not just one way to 'think like a computer'. Non-recursive neural networks 'think' in a very different way to fuzzy-logic expert systems, which in turn are very different to recursive neural networks - and you can never be completely sure what you're going to end up with when you start messing with evolutionary algorithms (within bounds, of course).

Yeah, don't worry: I discussed the sorts of ways I wanted to present Julias' thought with my partner and he said that the stuff I was going for didn't fit with a computery way of doing things. I think if I tried to faithfully write a real AI thought process I'd do pretty badly of it.

In short, Julias can think in absolutely any way you want him to, and you can claim with a straight face that that is exactly how all intelligent Atlantean computers thought. There's just so many variables and unknowns in there to fiddle with...

Yeah, but... let's say I'm writing science fiction in the 1850s and I want to design something to make people move faster, so I envisage the "clockwork horse" trope. A victorian who understands clockwork or horses would laugh at the thought, because it's obvious to any horse expert that clockwork would not do great at making a horse, which has a lot of flexibility and adaptability, and to any clockwork expert that a horse is not the sort of thing you'd use clockwork for because it lacks the "adaptability" of a horse. And a victorian futurist would point out the steam-powered horseless carriages that are all the rage and say that making one of them out of clockwork with a better power source would be a better idea.

And all of those experts look hopelessly naive to us, today, with our lamborghinis and self-driving cars.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is it's all well and good to say that the Atlanteans have clockwork so advanced that it can be used to make a great horse robot: but if you actually wanted a horse robot, you wouldn't use clockwork today.

So I don't want to be using a hopelessly naive image of AI, that looks silly and naive even to modern people with a passing interest in the subject. I don't think that's intellectually rigorous, you know?

So a human-like mind is going to be more realistic for atlantean AI than some IF-THEN arguments that look like they were written by someone who just learned BASIC...

Chanur series, by C.J. Cherryh

No, I'm not! But as the book club co-czar maybe I'll put that on the list. It sounds like a great concept!

u/CCC_037 [+1] (14 days later)

Eh, the Atlanteans could have made clockwork horses work. But I see your point.

No, I'm not! But as the book club co-czar maybe I'll put that on the list. It sounds like a great concept!

It is!

You've got this bunch of completely different aliens all living together in a kind of a federation in approximate peace and more or less harmony. (Well - no-one's currently actively at war with anyone else). There's the Hani, who are more or less what you get if you give lions Human-equivalent intelligence and thumbs. (Only Hani females ever go to space or interact with aliens - Hani males are considered too violent for civilisation). Then there's the Mahendosat, gorilla-like primates who are fiercely individualistic (no matter what your cause, you can find a Mahen willing to back it). The Stsho, herbivores psychologically incapable of violence (but perfectly capable of paying other people to be violent on their behalf) whose personalities fracture under stress and have oron control over the banking sector. The Kif, who hold a specieswide attitude of 'if you can't prove it, it didn't happen' and don't consider murder or torture a crime (or particularly remarkable, for that matter).

And then there's the various methane-breather civilisations, which are just strange. The T'ca are the only ones who've cracked the thorny problem of communication with oxygen-breathers (above) and they do so in a matrix that can be read equally well in multiple directions - it does fine for simple concepts, but no-one's ever quite managed to explain the idea of a 'traffic lane' to them (as a result, methane-breather ships get automatically classed Navigation Hazard because you never know where the thing will go). There's the Chi, who may or may not be sentient (some think they're just pets of the knnn). And, of course, the knnn, who only the T'ca and Chi can communicate with - but they have the best technology in the Compact. And the only way anyone knows this is because their ships regularly do things that are outright impossible for any other species.

The first story starts by pretty much dropping a human into this situation, and suddenly everyone's interested in the opportunities for trade represented by a new species...

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (14 days later)

That sounds fantastic! I have emailed the co-czar so it should be announced for next month. Except I haven't done the blurb part. I should get on that.

Kind of irrelevant aside: I've decided all my vampires have self-appointed "formal" titles, and I have got a draft one for Cassius. I thought you might enjoy adding some accolades to it? I have him as the King of Rome in "basic" title, but his full title should be more fancy.

I'm not sure if we've discussed titles but here's the ones I have for other characters in the story. I partially take the title a character chooses to be indicative of their personality, though I'm sure some monikers are assigned to them.

Duchess Elodia of Genoa = Doge Elodia De Ferrari, the reclaimer of Corsica, the scourge of the three rivers, the destroyer of Norina, she who binds her enemies

King William of New Holland = King William, most high and most excellent King by the grace of God, conqueror of New Holland, uniter of the five lands, soother of warring clans

Queen Ursula of (Atlanta?) = Divine Queen Ursula, defender of the homeland, vanguard of the new world, known for her tactical expertise, praised by Chan Xiao Tsu, disciple of the three temples, she who succeeds, merciful to the worthy, the butcher of Ollaiyur, protector of the small, a blight on the foolish, loved by all who she visits, progenitor of the Wang line

Duke Erlis of Columbus = The Honorable Erlis, Governor of Columbus

King Cassius if Rome = God-king Cassius of the Eternal City, respected advisor of Magnus, long-awaited child of Tibillus, he who listens with a patient ear, the pranker of the third council, the one with the iron toe, keeper of the text

Feel free to expand Cassius' title as you see fit. I want to keep the line about him being a prankster in there because I think it's hilarious though.

In case it matters, the relative ranks of the vampires concerned are:

Ursula >> Cassius > William [giant void] Elodia > Erlis

u/CCC_037 [+2] (14 days later)

Hmmmm...

King William of New Holland = King William, most high and most excellent King by the grace of God, conqueror of New Holland, uniter of the five lands, soother of warring clans

Adding 'Bane of Janissaries' or something to represent his well-known habit of damaging any humans assigned to his care might be appropriate.

King Cassius if Rome = God-king Cassius of the Eternal City, respected advisor of Magnus, long-awaited child of Tibillus, he who listens with a patient ear, the pranker of the third council, the one with the iron toe, keeper of the text

(if Rome? There has to be a story behind a title like that).

I think a prankster would take care to accumulate a bunch of titles that refer to particularly spectacular pranks. "Greaser of Pigs", for example, might refer to the time he got hold of fifteen pigs, covered them in grease, numbered them from 1 to 16 (deliberately skipping 5) and released them in the middle of someone's mansion. Even once all fifteen pigs had been captured, people would waste hours searching for number five... (I imagine the 'iron toe' title also fits vaguely in this category).

"He of the Long Memory" is also vaguely worrying in a known prankster (especially combined with the 'patient ear' title). You never know when he's going to bring up some vague indiscretion that you thought you'd left behind you a dozen decades ago (and the fact that he occasionally does this after someone refuses him a request means that a lot of other vampires find it very difficult not to allow him just a little more slack than they normally would, especially if he's grinning during the negotiations... because ninety-nine times out of a hundred if you say 'no' nothing happens, but one time out of a hundred you say 'no' and six months later everyone's talking about this thing you did a century ago that you have no idea how Cassius ever even found out about it and your reputation's taken a massive dive and you really wish you hadn't said 'no'...)

"Thief of Dignity" is also a good title for a prankster-type character.

Ursula's titles seem quite fitting to her relative power - especially since she gets to choose who counts as 'merciful' or 'foolish' (and it's clear that if you don't fit in with "loved by all she visits" then your name goes on the 'foolish' list) and she can easily get rid of titles she doesn't like.

Erlis and Elodia might have one or more titles that are just plain humiliating to reinforce their place at the bottom of the totem pole - titles that Ursula finds amusing, so the titles stay. Elodia, for example, might be "Footstool of [more powerful vampire]", while Erlis might even be demoted as far as "Bootlicker of X"

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (15 days later)

Adding 'Bane of Janissaries' or something to represent his well-known habit of damaging any humans assigned to his care might be appropriate.

I'm going to have to think on it: my first thought was to agree wholeheartedly that it was perfect, but the more I think about it, the more I think that vampires wouldn't include "the bane of janissaries" because it implies that janissaries themselves are important - like, people don't like William's habit not because they think the humans are moral subjects but because it's inconvenient to replace janissaries.

So I need to riff off that concept: "the bad houseguest" is more the vibe we're going for. I'll think it over. If I go with something like "the inconsiderate one", for example, it doesn't tell the reader that William's janissary reputation is so entrenched it's gotten glommed onto his name, so I need to pick something that is explicit whilst still appealling to vampire sensibilities. "The thinner of the herd" might work, but that implies more genocide and less lack of self control. Hm.

(if Rome? There has to be a story behind a title like that).

Yes a typo...

I think a prankster would take care to accumulate a bunch of titles that refer to particularly spectacular pranks. "Greaser of Pigs", for example

"Thief of Dignity" is also a good title for a prankster-type character.

Good point - more specificity! I love thief of dignity so I will have to put that in.

(I imagine the 'iron toe' title also fits vaguely in this category).

I just wanted something inscrutable when I plonked that in: "the noodle incident" and all that.

Also I'm going to chuck a reference to Cassius being a protective parent in there since most of the conflict comes from him doing that.

So we get this:

God-king Cassius of the Eternal City, respected advisor of Magnus, long-awaited child of Tibillus, he who listens with a patient ear, the pranker of the third council, the mother octopus, the one with the iron toe, theif of dignity, keeper of the text

... octopodes apparently are supremely good parents...

"He of the Long Memory" is also vaguely worrying in a known prankster (especially combined with the 'patient ear' title).

Yeah, I wanted to get a lot of contradictions in the titles: I figure vampires live so long that they effectively get to be dozens of different people.

Erlis and Elodia might have one or more titles that are just plain humiliating to reinforce their place at the bottom of the totem pole - titles that Ursula finds amusing, so the titles stay. Elodia, for example, might be "Footstool of [more powerful vampire]", while Erlis might even be demoted as far as "Bootlicker of X"

Very good point. I've added "lover of men" to Erlis's title because it's particularly appropriate: Erlis is the token "vegetarian" vampire who sees humans as moral subjects, but other vampires look down on such things, while Erlis sees it as a badge of honour. Sort of like a person who got Jews out of Germany in WW2 would kind of not mind being called a "jew-lover" even if it was not a compliment. (Great I just compared my story to the holocaust, hatemail incoming).

I love the word 'footstool' in titles too so I have made Elodia the footstool of Mpenoi, and put it in between two loftier accolades: "Doge Elodia De Ferrari, the reclaimer of Corsica, the scourge of the three rivers, footstool of Mpenoi, the destroyer of Norina, she who binds her enemies"

The big problem is I haven't got scenes where I put the vampire titles in there, so these are all a freezeframe bonus as it stands. I actually inserted them into a small scene I just wrote, which is why I was thinking about them, but I don't think they feel natural the way I used them. I can get Elodia's in by modifying a ritual scene to have Red and Lucia introduce their vampire patrons by name, I suppose.

---

“Thank you for taking the trip to see me, your majesty.” William bowed.

“It’s a pleasure. What did you want, your majesty?” Cassius bowed in return, and moved to sit on the bare earth, leaning against a tree.

William hesitated, moving to sit cross-legged about three feet in front of Cassius. “I am nervous about the war.”

“You were stupid to start it.”

“She’s a duchess. She is no challenge.” William replied automatically.

“Then why are you nervous?”

“She wants to write operas, poetry, music. You know that creativity is not one of my virtues.” William muttered.

“She tells me you want to have an axe-fight. You know she’s so much younger than you that it wouldn’t be fair.”

“Wars aren’t fair. Children should know that before they challenge their elders.”

“You challenged her.”

“She should have relented.”

“She should have relented?” Cassius laughed.

“Yes.”

“Were you taking me too seriously? When I told you to be careful with that human of mine?”

“The fact that I have a reputation for carelessness is a concern, yes.”

“What you’re doing is coming across a lot more controversial than having poor self-control at dinnertime.” Cassius paused. “You must know that if you cannot agree on how to fight, then as Elodia’s king I will choose for both you. I will try to be fair to you, but I will not send one of my subjects on a war she has no hope of winning. I’m worried you will lose.”

“I suppose I shall have to do my best.”

“You can still stop this. She’ll take the human’s head and a duchy.”

William paused, considering this. “Any duchy?”

“It would need to be a good one. Better than the one you gave me for the human.”

“So I’ll be out two duchies and not even get to keep the human.”

“Better to lose two duchies than a war.”

“That’s easy for you to say. You have dozens! I only have four.”

“A small price to pay to avoid a war.” Cassius paused. “I say this to you as a friend, King William, most high and most excellent King by the grace of God, conqueror of New Holland, uniter of the five lands, soother of warring clans: people are already speculating that your relationship with that human was inappropriate. I strongly suggest that you kill the human, before the rumour takes root.”

“I don’t think I shall be doing that, God-king Cassius of the Eternal City, respected advisor of Magnus, long-awaited child of Tibillus, he who listens with a patient ear, the pranker of the third council, the one with the iron toe, keeper of the text.” William muttered. “Thank you all the same, but I believe that time will be on my side.”

Cassius laughed. “Suit yourself, your majesty.”

---

The above is poorly described I know and I'm not sure where to put them right now they’re in a clearing? But maybe a cafe would be better? This is a secret meeting so probably a clearing. They travelled there transformed as bats so I kind of imagine them sitting in a tree, but that’s kind of ridiculous....

u/CCC_037 [+2] (15 days later)

but the more I think about it, the more I think that vampires wouldn't include "the bane of janissaries" because it implies that janissaries themselves are important

Eh, a thing doesn't have to be important for someone to be its bane. (For example, a rabbit might earn the title "Bane of Carrots" - no-one's suggesting that the carrots are in any way important, just that the rabbit chews through them like anything).

...but I do see the point that that would need to be demonstrated to the reader. Hmmm. "Messy Eater"? "Creater of bodies"? "Spiller of blood"? "He Who Wastes Good Food"?

(if Rome? There has to be a story behind a title like that).

Yes a typo...

Hmmm. There has to be some way to make a better story than that.

"Oh, well, that goes back to a few centuries or so ago. You see, I was once an even messier eater than William over there - blood everywhere, couldn't keep a jannissary more than about two hours. So any village I tried to claim - well, the first time I had lunch, there was a massive great fright among the humans, they all moved out and the village collapsed. It was getting frankly embarrassing - not just for me, but for everyone else as well. So, well, there was this guy I knew back then - Ted, great guy, pity he died back in the 1700s - and he managed to arrange this little village for me, right? Tiny place, just established. But I'd had, you know, second chance, third chance, fourth chance - everyone was kind of sick of me having to find a new place every couple of weeks. This was my last chance. But Ted managed to talk the rest of them into backing off from me one last time. One last village. 'If this place goes,' he told me, 'I won't be able to keep them off your back anymore, Cassius old fellow. But as long as you can keep it going, you'll be fine. You're not the vampire of Rome. You're the vampire if Rome.' ...and the name kindof stuck."

Something like that, maybe. (And with a more roman name than 'Ted').

... octopodes apparently are supremely good parents...

Which is less important than whether or not vampires know that octopodes are great parents. The title doesn't depend on true octopodes, after all, but on the vampire's perception of same. ("The mother bear" would be a reasonable alternative, especially for an overly protective parent).

I've added "lover of men" to Erlis's title because it's particularly appropriate

Given your chosen genre, you might want to make that "Lover of Humans", because as it is it doesn't look at first glance like a species-specific title.

The big problem is I haven't got scenes where I put the vampire titles in there

What, is there never a big social event with a footman at the door calling out titles as people arrive?

“So I’ll be out two duchies and not even get to keep the human.”

I can certainly see how William feels a little aggrieved at this point. Even if he didn't care about Red, being manipulated into losing half his duchies is going to sting quite a bit. (And at this point Cassius, who deliberately manipulated William into giving one duchy for the human in the first place, is probably very carefully not grinning triumphantly - it feels almost like William's war with Elodia is more a case of Cassius sneakily, through proxies, taking apart the resources of someone close to being his equal before William can become his social superior, and I have to wonder if Cassius makes a habit of 'dealing with threats before they are threats' in this manner. After all, if that was Cassius' aim, he could hardly do better then taking away half of William's duchies in exchange for nothing).

The above is poorly described I know and I'm not sure where to put them right now they’re in a clearing? But maybe a cafe would be better? This is a secret meeting so probably a clearing. They travelled there transformed as bats so I kind of imagine them sitting in a tree, but that’s kind of ridiculous....

Can they talk as bats?

The thing about meeting in a clearing in the middle of nowhere is that (a) as soon as anyone (such as a poacher) sees them, it's clear that this is a clandestine meeting, and if the poacher recognises them then the rumour is everywhere within a day or two, and (b) vampires hiding such a meeting from mere humans sounds a bit like giving up a comfortable chair because you're worried a cow might think worse of you. I imagine vampires having clandestine meetings at private tables in top-class restaurants or conference centres (you know, where they don't have to give up on little luxuries like comfortable chairs) where they speak very quietly in languages virtually unknown to modern man while attended to by highly professional and very deaf serving staff.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (16 days later)

Eh, a thing doesn't have to be important for someone to be its bane. (For example, a rabbit might earn the title "Bane of Carrots" - no-one's suggesting that the carrots are in any way important, just that the rabbit chews through them like anything).

Yeah, I could see a vampire who was proud of his lack of self-control calling himself the bane of janissaries, but I can't see another vampire bestowing the title on him. I have a friend who, whenever I have people over, he eats more than his fair share of the snacks I put out (it's gotten to the point where I have to tell him, "there's enough for everyone to have two", or he'll end up eating five). I wouldn't call him "the bane of snacks" - I'd call him "the one who takes more than his fair share", because of the impact it has on me. So I think vampires would call William "the greedy one" before they call him a bane on janissaries.

...but I do see the point that that would need to be demonstrated to the reader. Hmmm. "Messy Eater"? "Creator of bodies"? "Spiller of blood"? "He Who Wastes Good Food"?

I like these ones, I also thought of "the ruiner of vessels" but that's not very... obvious what it means. "Messy eater" is probably my favourite.

William's most unique quality is that he didn't have a parent (specifically: the vampire who turned him - seeking political influence of some kind - was killed by his army, and it is fortunate that dark ages europe burial traditions (binding the body in bandages) provide the darkness and pressure a vampire body needs to turn). Fortunately, My Vampires slowly become weak to the sun (over the course of a year or so), so he managed to figure out that sunshine was not a good look over time, and would have ultimately found a mentor and been raised in polite society.

So I'm thinking of calling William "the cuckoo" to be poetic and mysterious, since getting by without a parent is a pretty impressive thing and it's the sort of accolade that would be forgotten after the Catastrophe if he didn't put something like that in his name. Alternatives include "the fatherless".

. 'If this place goes,' he told me, 'I won't be able to keep them off your back anymore, Cassius old fellow. But as long as you can keep it going, you'll be fine. You're not the vampire of Rome. You're the vampire if Rome.' ...and the name kindof stuck."

OK, that's a good one... The thought of Cassius holding Rome since antiquity is pretty impressive, too.

... octopodes apparently are supremely good parents...

Which is less important than whether or not vampires know that octopodes are great parents. The title doesn't depend on true octopodes, after all, but on the vampire's perception of same. ("The mother bear" would be a reasonable alternative, especially for an overly protective parent).

Yeah: don't want to go with mother bear which would have been my first thought because Ursula is going to have a really strong bear motif based on this myth (hence the name Ursula).

Maybe the Ostrich would be a better choice. "The sitting ostrich".

I've added "lover of men" to Erlis's title because it's particularly appropriate

Given your chosen genre, you might want to make that "Lover of Humans", because as it is it doesn't look at first glance like a species-specific title.

Buuuut... I thought that was kind of funny :(... you're right though: I'll change it to "lover of man"

The big problem is I haven't got scenes where I put the vampire titles in there

What, is there never a big social event with a footman at the door calling out titles as people arrive?

Nope: William's in Rome for an opera, and I did do an early draft of guests being announced and entering a ballroom to mingle, but I quickly realised I had no story to tell there and it was going to be - to do a callback - writing a scene of Cassius playing fetch with his dog just so I could tell the reader that Cassius' dog had a deep symbolic name.

There's a formal ceremony where Elodia and William meet, and there's a few spots I could put it.

For example:

---

At the appointed time, an automobile parked out the front of their cottage, and six people walked out; Lucia, a young man, an older man, two young ladies and someone who could only be Elodia. She was dressed in a fine seafoam ball gown, covered in flower shapes formed from shimmering jewels that had been meticulously sewn into the fabric. It had short sleeves trimmed with lace and a tight bodice. The skirt was so full, so expanded by the number of ruffles that Red wondered if it would be able to squeeze through the door. Her attendants wore more modern attire; the gentlemen in suits similar to Red's, and the ladies in gowns that were far less extravagant.

Red opened the door to ensure Duchess Elodia was invited in at once. “Welcome, please, come in, your grace.” He bowed deeply as he had rehearsed with William dozens of times. She gave a small smile, nodded, and entered the cottage.

William bowed as well, and immediately addressed Elodia in what sounded like rapid-fire Italian. She responded in kind. After a few moments, Elodia looked to Lucia and spoke to her in Italian that was slow enough for Red to understand.

“Take them to bed now.”

“Yes, your grace.” Lucia responded in Italian. She paused for a moment, gave Red a wry grin, and continued in French. “Would you please show us to the rooms his majesty has set aside for us? We would like some rest.”

---

Maybe I should change that passage to involve Lucia announcing Elodia by title and Red announcing William by title.

Do you think the thing I posted yesterday, where William and Cassius address each other by title as a marker of seriousness/respect, flows or do you think the titles just really bog it down? I think the latter but that might be because I've read the titles a million times and my eyes kind of glaze over them... but I also think using them in a sentence like that will make it hard to read. Hm.

I have to wonder if Cassius makes a habit of 'dealing with threats before they are threats' in this manner. After all, if that was Cassius' aim, he could hardly do better then taking away half of William's duchies in exchange for nothing

Yeah - I think that is very much what Cassius might have been going for. He's worried that in another few hundred years New Holland may be as densely populated as Europe, and in that case then William probably has about ~10 kingdoms worth of land/population and Cassius wants to have his allies in place if/when that fractures.

Of course, Cassius is also aware that the place is mostly a damn desert, so.....

Can they talk as bats?

I don't think so: no vocal chords. Even if they could, I wouldn't want the damn segment to suddenly be about the cute widdle bats having a chat.

The thing about meeting in a clearing in the middle of nowhere is that (a) as soon as anyone (such as a poacher) sees them, it's clear that this is a clandestine meeting, and if the poacher recognises them then the rumour is everywhere within a day or two, and (b) vampires hiding such a meeting from mere humans sounds a bit like giving up a comfortable chair because you're worried a cow might think worse of you. I imagine vampires having clandestine meetings at private tables in top-class restaurants or conference centres (you know, where they don't have to give up on little luxuries like comfortable chairs) where they speak very quietly in languages virtually unknown to modern man while attended to by highly professional and very deaf serving staff.

Yeah; the idea is they don't want Elodia finding out, but they could just meet in a town on the island that Elodia doesn't have much of a toehold in and hope there's no-one there who can recognise them. I'll change the setting. Cheers!

u/CCC_037 [+2] (16 days later)

So I'm thinking of calling William "the cuckoo" to be poetic and mysterious, since getting by without a parent is a pretty impressive thing and it's the sort of accolade that would be forgotten after the Catastrophe if he didn't put something like that in his name. Alternatives include "the fatherless".

"The Orphan". (If he had a hand in his sire's demise, and this is known, then it's "The self-made orphan"). Or perhaps "The feral child". Or "The foundling". Or add a bit to it - "The orphan/feral child/foundling of wherever".

Yeah: don't want to go with mother bear which would have been my first thought because Ursula is going to have a really strong bear motif based on this myth (hence the name Ursula).

Maybe the Ostrich would be a better choice. "The sitting ostrich".

Hmmmm. TvTropes tells me that the male alternative to the "Mama Bear" trope is called "Papa Wolf", so wolves are probably also a good option. (Wolves also have some mythological links to vampires, so there's an extra thematic link there).

Buuuut... I thought that was kind of funny :(... you're right though: I'll change it to "lover of man"

I recommend "lover of mankind", for exactly the same reasons.

Maybe I should change that passage to involve Lucia announcing Elodia by title and Red announcing William by title.

Not convoluted enough for vampires. I recommend having Red announce Elodia by title (which he had to painstakingly practise and memorise) as she enters and Lucia announce William by title (flawlessly) in response.

Do you think the thing I posted yesterday, where William and Cassius address each other by title as a marker of seriousness/respect, flows or do you think the titles just really bog it down?

The titles don't really flow all that well, no. A set of titles like that is going to be hard to get flowing.

Short of a large social scene between a dozen vampires with a footman at the door announcing them, the only place I can think of that might work to introduce titles is a scene where William is teaching Red the titles of several major characters (and Red asks about the backstories behind one or two of them because he's curious).

Yeah - I think that is very much what Cassius might have been going for. He's worried that in another few hundred years New Holland may be as densely populated as Europe, and in that case then William probably has about ~10 kingdoms worth of land/population and Cassius wants to have his allies in place if/when that fractures.

Of course, Cassius is also aware that the place is mostly a damn desert, so.....

Yeah, but the way these humans have been going with their agriculture lately... and given enough time, weather systems do change...

Yeah; the idea is they don't want Elodia finding out

Two powerful vampire kings are letting the opinion of a mere duchess prevent them from doing what they want? Clearly Elodia has a lot more power than I'd expected...

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (16 days later)

"The Orphan". (If he had a hand in his sire's demise, and this is known, then it's "The self-made orphan"). Or perhaps "The feral child". Or "The foundling". Or add a bit to it - "The orphan/feral child/foundling of wherever".

The foundling. Excellent. I knew there was another word for orphan that I missed! I also realised that cuckoo means "crazy" and is not the connotation I wanted to go for....

Hmmmm. TvTropes tells me that the male alternative to the "Mama Bear" trope is called "Papa Wolf", so wolves are probably also a good option. (Wolves also have some mythological links to vampires, so there's an extra thematic link there).

Another excellent observation! Cheers.

I recommend "lover of mankind", for exactly the same reasons.

It sounds too.... "nice". Manlover... nah manlover sounds like a gay euphemism too.

OK here we go, bleeding heart could work:

The Honorable Erlis, Governor of Columbus, the one who kneels before Black Fang, the bleeding heart

I recommend having Red announce Elodia by title (which he had to painstakingly practise and memorise) as she enters and Lucia announce William by title (flawlessly) in response.

YES. Perfect!!

the only place I can think of that might work to introduce titles is a scene where William is teaching Red the titles of several major characters (and Red asks about the backstories behind one or two of them because he's curious).

That's a good thought: but Erlis wouldn't come up in time for that. I was thinking it might be something they put on their envelopes, but they wouldn't put them in human-readable format. Still, I could do something like:

William carefully addressed the letter to Cassius, spelling his name out formally: "God-king Cassius of the Eternal City, respected advisor of Magnus, long-awaited child of Tibillus, he who listens with a patient ear, the pranker of the third council, the wolf, the one with the iron toe, theif of dignity, keeper of the text" - he wanted to make sure that he was taken seriously...

Two powerful vampire kings are letting the opinion of a mere duchess prevent them from doing what they want? Clearly Elodia has a lot more power than I'd expected...

Anyone can start a rumour: but I get your point. They needn't be so paranoid.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (16 days later)

I knew there was another word for orphan that I missed!

This is what thesauri are for.

I also realised that cuckoo means "crazy" and is not the connotation I wanted to go for....

Depends, really. If a sufficiently powerful vampire (i.e. Ursula or similar tier) thinks it's funny, then I think any title will stick, no matter how unfortunate the connotations. Of course, as soon as Ursula starts to feel that the joke is wearing thin, the title with vanish or be replaced quite rapidly.

OK here we go, bleeding heart could work:

Perfect!

Especially when we consider that these are vampires we're talking about, and so blood has extra connotations to them. The bleeding heart isn't just overly compassionate - the connotation suggests an image of a vampire giving blood back to humans - which other vampires will presumably see as a little perverse, the sort of thing that makes other vampires give poor Erlis a very wide berth, to the point where he's practically forced to talk to the jannissaries because it's often choice between them or the coat rack. (This, of course, ensures that he can never get rid of the bleeding heart title...).

I was thinking it might be something they put on their envelopes, but they wouldn't put them in human-readable format.

Perhaps they address letters by smell, with delicate scents and perfumes that not one human nose in a thousand can tell apart... and then have the full title written on the top of the paper inside, in scripts unknown to modern archaeology.

Anyone can start a rumour: but I get your point. They needn't be so paranoid.

A Duchess who starts a rumour about Kings that they don't want started tends to get squashed, quickly. Even if she thinks she can take William, that's only possible with Cassius' tacit support; if she does the first little thing that even might annoy Cassius, then she'll find her war with King William suddenly taking an extremely nasty turn and I'm sure she's politically aware enough to know that. If she annoys Cassius enough, then 'extremely nasty' might even end up 'lethal' (if Cassius and William can come to an agreement first about who gets her stuff and/or any opportunity to replace her).

So, even if she did know exactly what they were doing, why would she bother to start a rumour?

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (16 days later)

Especially when we consider that these are vampires we're talking about, and so blood has extra connotations to them. The bleeding heart isn't just overly compassionate - the connotation suggests an image of a vampire giving blood back to humans

When you remember that My Vampires are born by having a human's chest ripped open to reveal the heart, the appropriate valve being severed, and the vampire "donor" vomiting gross sludge into the heart, the bleeding heart metaphor sounds even worse - like they really should just make the human into a vampire if they want to be all touchy-feely about it.

other vampires give poor Erlis a very wide berth, to the point where he's practically forced to talk to the jannissaries because it's often choice between them or the coat rack

Yeah, and Erlis really respects janissaries, so he doesn't mind. I imagine he's also slowly getting a network of "bleeding hearts" together, and hoping that in a few centuries they'll be able to "come out of the closet" and treating humans with respect will be the norm.

Of course, he gets really lucky that William, who isn't too weak himself, has interests in Erlis's duchy for personal reasons so William can be brought into the fold, and Erlis manages to do so - or at least get the thin end of the wedge in. William influences others to be more humane (not as extreme as he or Erlis is though) and in the early 2010s he gets a mage to work for him. The allegiance with the mage and William probably taking credit for Cassius's death will be enough to get Ursula over the line and then vampires come out of the coffin c.2030 and William would use his influence in both vampire and human worlds to ensure that human laws interact with vampire society in a way that privileges him (naturally).

Then c.2600 he and Red are rival starship captains and we have VAMPIRES IN SPACE offbrand sequel!

Perhaps they address letters by smell, with delicate scents and perfumes that not one human nose in a thousand can tell apart... and then have the full title written on the top of the paper inside, in scripts unknown to modern archaeology.

Now I'm imagining the parfumerie that each vampire would have to have at her disposal in order to acheive such a thing...

So, even if she did know exactly what they were doing, why would she bother to start a rumour?

Now I'm imagining them openly meeting in her courtyard, with her servants waiting on them, as she stands in the doorway and tries to understand a snippet of Chinese c. 800 CE...

u/CCC_037 [+1] (16 days later)

like they really should just make the human into a vampire if they want to be all touchy-feely about it.

Perhaps even suggesting that poor Erlis' vampireness is leaking out, and leading to people making jokes that he'll end up human himself if he doesn't watch out...

Some people are sure to hint at him Turning the ones he cares about and ignoring the rest - after all, in a half a century they'll all be dead, and who bothers making friends who can't even sustain a friendship for a decent few centuries?

I imagine he's also slowly getting a network of "bleeding hearts" together, and hoping that in a few centuries they'll be able to "come out of the closet" and treating humans with respect will be the norm.

Ooooh, worse, he's probably getting a network of jannissaries together. Not a single one of them would ever betray their own vampire master, of course, but he can probably get a lot of info by asking any of them to betray his or her master's enemies... which allows him to develop quite a spy network right under the noses of the other vampires.

Which he then promptly never uses for his own betterment, leaving those higher-ranked vampires who have worked out the spy network to wonder what exactly it is that he intends to do with all these rumours. Could it possibly be that he genuinely cares about these humans? Surely not, he's just putting on an act to get the jannissaries to talk!

Of course, he gets really lucky that William, who isn't too weak himself, has interests in Erlis's duchy for personal reasons so William can be brought into the fold

Personal reasons and maybe he decides he should be listening in to all these rumours that pass Erlis' ears as well. The jannissary spy network could well be a tempting part of the aforementioned thin end of the wedge; between that, modern technology, and the occasional mage, vampires are certainly going to have reason to take humans pretty seriously.

William would use his influence in both vampire and human worlds to ensure that human laws interact with vampire society in a way that privileges him (naturally).

Naturally.

Then c.2600 he and Red are rival starship captains and we have VAMPIRES IN SPACE offbrand sequel!

They'll have to be careful. The sun never sets in space... hmmm, and I seem to remember that they can't look directly even at sufficiently detailed images of it, so there's one direction out of the ship that the captain can never, ever look in, thus one must be very careful about attackers flying in from the direction of the Sun (non-vampire crew would have to look at the viewscreen and handle weapons themselves, and they just don't have the perfect aim of vampires...)

Now I'm imagining them openly meeting in her courtyard, with her servants waiting on them, as she stands in the doorway and tries to understand a snippet of Chinese c. 800 CE...

The general King/Duchess dynamic is generally one wherein the King can do this and the Duchess can do practically nothing to stop him; but a lot of kings refrained on the basis that it would be rude to rub the Duchess' nose in just how much lower on the social totem pole she is. (Other, less popular kings would have done this sort of thing all the time, of course. Rude or not, it's good to be in charge).

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (17 days later)

Ooooh, worse, he's probably getting a network of jannissaries together. Not a single one of them would ever betray their own vampire master, of course, but he can probably get a lot of info by asking any of them to betray his or her master's enemies... which allows him to develop quite a spy network right under the noses of the other vampires.

... I'm imagining a janissary network kind of like a line marriage - they keep on recruiting "junior janissaries" they meet into it, so once a vampire's janissaries are in the "clan", they keep on recruiting one another and any new additions. So it's kind of like a virus: once one of your janissaries has it, they'll all get it sooner or later.

Of course, vampires would know about it, so it would have to operate under a cosmo-like system with tips like "10 things your vampire wants you to wear to your next feeding! 23 vampires tell you what they want from you but are afraid you would balk at!" nestled in the covert spy network - and each vampire thinking they are getting more information out of the janissary network than they are leaking.

Or vampires just periodically smoke all their janissaries and start again - and an enemy can manipulate them into doing that at a disadvantageous time.

[Vampires wonder] Could it possibly be that [Erlis] genuinely cares about these humans? Surely not, he's just putting on an act to get the jannissaries to talk!

Nah, I don't think Erlis would let the janissary network get back to him: as in, he wouldn't use it for his own benefit. Some will suspect it's him but once Erlis gets a few janissaries at a convocation to talk to one another - and the janissaries are only barely complicit sometimes anyway - the network is self-propagating for the most part...

Personal reasons and maybe he decides he should be listening in to all these rumours that pass Erlis' ears as well. The jannissary spy network could well be a tempting part of the aforementioned thin end of the wedge; between that, modern technology, and the occasional mage, vampires are certainly going to have reason to take humans pretty seriously.

Exactly! It's all coming together... I'm surprised Erlis doesn't have designs on "cashing in" on his success so to speak. But maybe a hundred and fifty years after he started the plan he might change his mind.

They'll have to be careful. The sun never sets in space...

Just make sure you're not in the Sol system and you're golden - - - errr, platinum !

The general King/Duchess dynamic is generally one wherein the King can do this and the Duchess can do practically nothing to stop him; but a lot of kings refrained on the basis that it would be rude to rub the Duchess' nose in just how much lower on the social totem pole she is. (Other, less popular kings would have done this sort of thing all the time, of course. Rude or not, it's good to be in charge).

Plus, if your Dukes/Duchesses aren't fond of you, they might revolt and cede their territories to a neighbouring Queen/King. It would be a pity if you woke up one evening with 12 duchies and by the time the sun rose you had only two, and that smug snake in the next town over had some prize spots in your territory. Sure, there'd be a war, and maybe you'd make an example of one or two of the Dukes... but you'd be hard pressed to regain all that territory after such a fantastic coup.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (18 days later)

... I'm imagining a janissary network kind of like a line marriage - they keep on recruiting "junior janissaries" they meet into it, so once a vampire's janissaries are in the "clan", they keep on recruiting one another and any new additions. So it's kind of like a virus: once one of your janissaries has it, they'll all get it sooner or later.

Sounds about right!

and each vampire thinking they are getting more information out of the janissary network than they are leaking.

More than half the time,the vampires are probably deliberately leaking things into the jannissary network. After all, espionage is so much easier if you know at least some of what your enemies know... and then there's situations like when Cassius orders his janissaries to start spreading a rumour damaging to Ursula but to tell anyone who asked that they heard it from Erlis (because nobody believes Erlis when he says he didn't start it)...

Nah, I don't think Erlis would let the janissary network get back to him: as in, he wouldn't use it for his own benefit

Maybe he wouldn't. But a paranoid elder vampire who sees Erlis always talking to the janissaries is going to assume that Erlis is using (or at least monitoring) the network for some reason, and when he can't find that reason, he's going to assume that he's missing something and spend sleepless days trying to figure out what he's missing and how it's going to come back to bite him later...

Plus, if your Dukes/Duchesses aren't fond of you, they might revolt and cede their territories to a neighbouring Queen/King. It would be a pity if you woke up one evening with 12 duchies and by the time the sun rose you had only two, and that smug snake in the next town over had some prize spots in your territory. Sure, there'd be a war, and maybe you'd make an example of one or two of the Dukes... but you'd be hard pressed to regain all that territory after such a fantastic coup.

That is true, too. Not to mention which, Elodia seems the sort to actually take the time to learn the 800 BC dialect of Chinese and then merely pretend she doesn't know it, just to gain the advantage here... so there's another reason not to actually use her backyard unless one really needs to flaunt power.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (19 days later)

More than half the time,the vampires are probably deliberately leaking things into the jannissary network

The janissary network sounds hard to trust, on some level: you know the information is good, or at least has a kernel of truth - but you don't know whether the vampire in question wanted that information or not.

Also, janissaries aren't as easy to manipulate as vampires are: they don't have political motivations beyond wanting to ensure they have a vampire around (they don't much care which), so you have to offer them money - and your rival can just offer a higher price. I mean, unless you threaten them or their family, but a good vampire patron will guard all her janissaries with a ferocious vigor so on a practical level money is the best bet.

After all, unless vampires are cultivating a long-term arrangement with a family of humans - passing down the janissary benefits from mother to daughter and so on - they're going to try and pick out janissaries who aren't going to cause much trouble.

Elodia seems the sort to actually take the time to learn the 800 BC dialect of Chinese and then merely pretend she doesn't know it, just to gain the advantage here

Human professors of antiquities - the more obscure the civilisation the better - have noticed this strange phenomenon where an intelligent, well-spoken student presents themselves to them. They ask for a fellowship, offering enough money to fund your research for a few years in exchange, and tend to focus most of their effort on reading and writing the language and not seeming to care as much about the culture. But getting funding in antiquities is a tricky business, and the students only come by after hours - at night - for lessons, so they're quite happy to turn a blind eye.

I was thinking about what you were saying about the envelopes and being addressed in scents or the like, a "secret double layer" so to speak, and I remembered that etiquette used to require that you have two envelopes - one inside the other. The idea was that, when mail was delivered by horse and carriage, the letters used to get jostled around a lot and might get dirty or torn. So you'd have the outer envelope which gets the letter to the destination, then the servants of the house would open the letter, discard the outer envelope, and present the inner envelope to the head of the household.  This custom [has been (somewhat) retained in wedding invitations](https://cdnll.invitationsbydawn.com/images/art/cs-inner-outer-envelopeInfographic.gif). 

I imagine this would have been maintained in vampire circles (or originated there - I suppose I shouldn't fall into the trap of giving vampires victorian customs.... I wonder how they addressed letters in ancient Rome?). When a vampire decides to deliver a letter by post (and come on, it's so convenient these days - you can't blame them!), they'd use two envelopes and the outer one would be like:

Mr William Ryan

123 Main Street

Perth, Western Australia 6000

And the inner envelope would be all:

The great and most high King William of New Holland, king by the grace of god; he who fought off the pharisees and maintained order in times of trouble; the scion of Callum; the keeper of the great tomb; the most beloved of my maker; the friend and confidant of Anastasia; etc

Or whatever. 

Now I want to write a scene where William teaches Red how to prepare his mail (i.e. opening the outer envelope), and Red just has his eyes bug out at the title thing: except he wouldn't because vampires wouldn't do stuff like that in languages the servants spoke, and anyone William corresponded with would know William made his home in an English-speaking country so could be assume to have English-speaking servants.

u/CCC_037 [+1] (19 days later)

The janissary network sounds hard to trust, on some level: you know the information is good, or at least has a kernel of truth - but you don't know whether the vampire in question wanted that information or not.

In other words, it's just like any other rumour network...

I imagine most jannissaries have some level of loyalty to their current vampire - at the very least, they're happy with their current arrangement and are (on average) reluctant to move to an unknown vampire; though that's not to say you don't get the occasional exception.

Human professors of antiquities - the more obscure the civilisation the better - have noticed this strange phenomenon where an intelligent, well-spoken student presents themselves to them.

Nice. I like it! (Of course, a lot of them are interested in studying the pronounciation, where anything is known about this, as well, and they are surprisingly uninterested in having their names attached to new papers in the field...).

I remembered that etiquette used to require that you have two envelopes - one inside the other.

Huh. That's surprisingly practical. And that practicality is in turn why the vampires would no doubt choose this method.

Now I want to write a scene where William teaches Red how to prepare his mail (i.e. opening the outer envelope), and Red just has his eyes bug out at the title thing: except he wouldn't because vampires wouldn't do stuff like that in languages the servants spoke, and anyone William corresponded with would know William made his home in an English-speaking country so could be assume to have English-speaking servants.

So, Red opens the outer envelops and sees that the inner one is written in - oh - Chinese or Arabic or Linear A or something. Why wouldn't his eyes bug out at this? And then he asks William what it is and William reads it out, translating as he reads the entire title (which only makes Red's eyes bug out further, especially as he'd only meant to ask what language it was in...) - and then the scene progresses from there.

Incidentally, can you speak in more than one language?

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (20 days later)

I imagine most jannissaries have some level of loyalty to their current vampire - at the very least, they're happy with their current arrangement and are (on average) reluctant to move to an unknown vampire; though that's not to say you don't get the occasional exception.

Yeah, better the demon you know than the demon you don't; especially when dealing with creatures that could drink you to death.

and they are surprisingly uninterested in having their names attached to new papers in the field...

As if they wouldn't just make a fake ID for the very purpose (or borrow a janissary's identity)

So, Red opens the outer envelops and sees that the inner one is written in - oh - Chinese or Arabic or Linear A or something. Why wouldn't his eyes bug out at this? And then he asks William what it is and William reads it out, translating as he reads the entire title (which only makes Red's eyes bug out further, especially as he'd only meant to ask what language it was in...) - and then the scene progresses from there.

Hmm, might use that to open a scene that had a lackluster opening. Good thought.

Incidentally, can you speak in more than one language?

The emphasis makes me wonder whether you're asking if it's possible to speak two languages simultaneously in a sort of... doublespeak.

I'm only fluent in English but I speak French well enough to get by (can read a book slowly and with effort). My Italian's not too bad, I could have a basic conversation with a lot of gesturing. Thai I have at the "well prepared tourist" level - I can order food, negotiate prices, ask for directions, etc, but can't have an abstract conversation by any means. Esperanto I've just started picking up, it's probably a little better than my Thai.

The fact that my story is set in Rome and Corsica and the USA, while it seems like it's because of my personal experience with their languages, it's all purely a coincidence: I asked a WW2 buff where the US had heavy casualties, and he pointed to the Italian front and I was already planning an Opera so Rome was perfect... and then needed somewhere safe for Our Heroes to flee when the Americans reached Rome, and Corsica was one of the few places that had been liberated from the nazis and seemed relatively safe, and it would be a short boat ride away, so it seemed the obvious choice. The other one I was thinking was Portugal, FWIW, but that's so much farther from Rome.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (20 days later)

As if they wouldn't just make a fake ID for the very purpose (or borrow a janissary's identity)

Oh, sure, they could do that. But if another vampire is introduced to that janissary, then he's going to figure out that the attached vampire now knows ancient Mongolian, and that's a secret worth keeping as long as said vampire continues to write his correspondence in ancient Mongolian...

It's not a matter of hiding themselves from humans. It's a matter of hiding the languages they know from vampires who might use those languages in front of them.

The emphasis makes me wonder whether you're asking if it's possible to speak two languages simultaneously in a sort of... doublespeak.

There was a radio advert wat het dit baie goed gedoen a few years back. Hulle het geadverteer vir a hybrid car, and they kept switching vanaf Engels na Afrikaans en terug throughout the entire ad to help push the 'hybrid' theme. It was only possible because baie mense hier praat altwee taale and often well enough that if you weren't paying attention miskien sal jy dit nie onmiddelik sien nie. You might have to play fast and loose with die reels van wordorder and pay close attention to where your transitions are maar dit kan gedoen word without too much trouble.

And since you've just said that you don't speak Afrikaans, I should translate about half of that paragraph.

There was a radio advert which did it very well a few years back. They were advertising for a hybrid car, and they kept switching from English to Afrikaans and back throughout the entire ad to help push the 'hybrid' theme. It was only possible because many people here speak both languages and often well enough that if you weren't paying attention maybe you wouldn't immediately notice. You might have to play fast and loose with the rules of word order and pay close attention to where your transitions are but it can be done without too much trouble.

I'm only fluent in English but I speak French well enough to get by

Good, then you're familiar with the sort of trouble you can get in when you use one language's words with another language's grammar and can believably write a scene in which one character is only barely proficient in the language being used.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (20 days later)

switching languages

... what purpose would that have? Vampires talking to one another in a more obfuscated way? (so that way someone who knows ancient mongolian will still be confused because the other half of the conversation is in navajo?)

can believably write a scene in which one character is only barely proficient in the language being used

It's not really come up, strangely enough. This is the closest I can think of:

---

The part of the city that William showed Red that evening was full of strange and new things he didn’t recognise. There were beggars who hid their faces beneath thick shawls, the smells of spices and clouds of thick incense the likes of which he had never experienced before, the sound of discordant music. It was hard to believe that such a place could have existed so near to the hotel he worked at, and that he had never happened across it before.

People stared at him as he walked, half a step behind William, trying to take it all in. People stopped talking when they got close, some giving awkward bows when William was within a few feet, and not looking up until he had passed.

Red was glad it wasn’t just him who had that urge.

When he tried to return the next day, he almost couldn’t find it again. When he did finally find the alleyway that led to the strange street he could swear he had passed the two shops sandwiching it (a shop exclusively selling flower vases and another selling jewelry that had spikes on the underside) three times before he spotted the entrance. The archway to the neighbourhood looked warmer, more welcoming in the light of day.

During daylight, it was much different; there were fewer people about, and no beggars at all. Perhaps that had been why he had so much trouble finding his way back. The few people who he saw did not stare, did not bow. There were a few small glances out of the corner of their eyes, a few whispers when they thought he couldn’t see. So he still felt exposed and awkward, just in an altogether different way.

He saw the grand concert hall, with large posters proclaiming the shows that were put on inside. He did not recognise the names of any of them, but that was not surprising; he was not exactly a patron of the local arts. He stood out the front, taking in the strange names, and looking at the dates. Each performance seemed to have only one or two showings, but rather than being on consecutive nights they were showing weeks apart. He wondered what lead to such an arrangement. It didn’t sound very profitable.

As he examined the posters, a woman came up to him. She was wearing a heavy red robe that covered her entire body, including her face. There was a thick mesh screen covering her eyes, and he could see the glint of a pair of black glasses through the mesh.

“Who are you?” She hissed at him in broken Italian. “What is your business?”

Red was quite surprised at receiving such an unprovoked, frosty reception. And in worse Italian than his own, no less. “I want to buy a...” Red searched for the word but was not able to find it in his limited Italian vocabulary. He gestured vaguely, outlining a square with his hands. “A big box?” He said finally, weakly.

The woman’s manner seemed to soften, though it was hard to be sure with only the most basic outline of her form being visible. “A-ha! On a job for your master?”

Red tried not to cringe; his master? Her Italian was definitely worse than his. He had to remind himself he was in no place to be judge. “Yes. My boss needs one for… things.” Okay, he really couldn’t be judgemental about it.

She touched him gently on the shoulder. It felt unpleasant and made him think of swimming and having his foot scrape something on the bottom. She gestured for him to follow her. “Come to my shop. I am going to help.”

Red followed, wondering about the wisdom of the decision; he had not seen her shop, so he couldn’t even be sure that she would have anything appropriate. William had been quite emphatic about the importance of quality of the trunk. Moreover, he had never seen someone dressed in a shroud as this woman was. It was beginning to get warm out. She would have to be sweltering under that thing; he could only imagine what it would be like in June. Maybe she didn’t wear this every day. Or maybe it was a religious thing. Red had never met a nun before. Maybe she was a nun. Nuns would have to be trustworthy. He relaxed.

[...]

The shrouded woman watched Red intently as he ran his hand over the lid of one, feeling the grain, thinking. “They please you?”

“Maybe.” Red didn’t know which to choose, or if he should be choosing these ones at all. Apart from difference in the carved designs on the front and the colour of the wood, they seemed identical to him. He decided to open them and examine the hinges and clasps. Those would be the most likely places for the trunk to fail, he reasoned.

[...]

“I’ll take this one.”

The shrouded woman moved her head up and down in an exaggerated mirror of his nod. “Very good. Carry it to the front. Do you want me to wrap it in paper?”

Red shook his head. “No. That won’t be necessary.”

She made a small hissing sound, apparently irritated, and walked to the front of the shop where the cash register was.

---

Problem with the above is neither of the characters speak Italian terribly well and they both are just talking about immediate concerns (shopping).

u/CCC_037 [+2] (21 days later)

... what purpose would that have? Vampires talking to one another in a more obfuscated way? (so that way someone who knows ancient mongolian will still be confused because the other half of the conversation is in navajo?)

Basically, yes. (And why stop at two languages?)

It's not really come up, strangely enough.

...that was surprising to me, so I went and looked a few things up. English is a subject-verb-object language, that is, a language in which you (generally) first mention the subject of the sentence, then what the subject does, then what it is done to. (Example: "Red drank the wine.")

Afrikaans, the foreign language with which I have the most experience, is subject-object-verb ("Red het die wyn gedrink" - lit. "Red did the wine drink"). So, if you try translating word-for-word directly from the one language to the other, you end up sounding a bit like Yoda - you've got the right words in there and people can generally easily figure out your meaning, but it's clear that you're doing something wrong. Even if you're just talking about shopping.

Now, looking it up, I see that French and Italian are also both subject-verb-object languages (like English). So perhaps you can get away with just literally translating word-for-word from one language to another without messing up the grammar. (I wouldn't know, I speak neither French nor Italian).

Of course, that's just one of the pitfalls awaiting someone trying to learn a new language. In German, objects have gender...

---

I'm glad to see the use of the other senses here. I'm seeing hearing, smell, touch all represented; no taste, but there wasn't really space for it in this scene. Better yet, a few intangibles - a sense of welcoming or danger, a bit of body language, some social awareness. So well done on that.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (21 days later)

And why stop at two languages?

Great so now Vampires speak this strange patchwork and every now and then Red catches a snatch - just a word here or there where William or one of the other vampires happens to mix English in just in case a secret listener doesn't know that. (I imagine in such a situation English would be in a low rotation: 1/1000 words or something)

William spoke incomprehensibly, but with a start Red thought he heard something.

"William, dear, did you just say... refrigerator?"

"No, darling, you misheard...."

Yeah, English, French, Italian and Esperanto are all really similar. Thai is also SVO, actually, though it tends to just completely do away with pronouns (there are pronouns, but in practise people tend to use names instead of the he/she equivalent). It also has a "noun class" thing where instead of two noun genders there's like 50+, but it tends to be in more of a "loaf of bread" and "head of cattle" sort of thing - where the classes only come up when you're counting - rather than a gender thing that has to agree.

French and Italian are a bit different from English because of the way they handle verbs, but they're both very, very close to each other in that regard. French has some more weirdness with verbs (including a whole tense that is so rare that most students in France don't even learn about formally in school!).

French and Italian both have gender like German does; unlike german it doesn't have a neuter though.

Esperanto, of course, doesn't have gender (though you can specify something as female - male is the default, of course - by adding -in- to the end of the word. So avo means grandfather, avino means grandmother, and the prefix ge- can be added to make it gender neutral, so geavo means grandparent). It does have an affix (-n) to mark the object of the sentence, so you can be free with word order, though in practise it's SVO.

So, to illustrate:

Reĉjo trinkas la vinon: Red drinks the wine

Reĉjo la vinon trinkas: Red drinks the wine

La vinon trinkas Reĉjo: Red drinks the wine

La vinon Reĉjo trinkas: Red drinks the wine

Apparently it's very useful for poetry.

(Reĉjo is one way of converting the name Red into Esperanto, since all names should end with -o or -a; since Red is a nickname I gave him a familiar masculine affix. The Esperanto name would be pronounced "Rechyo"...)

u/CCC_037 [+2] (21 days later)

just a word here or there

If you're mixing SOV and SVO languages (like Afrikaans/English) then you can't just swap out the occasional word; you pretty much have to swap out entire clauses to avoid making a mess of the grammar in at least one of the languages involved. I kind of imagine they'd leave English mostly out of the rotation if Red is right there, but sometimes other languages loan words from English (or, more likely, English loans words from other languages and refuses to give them back).

French and Italian are a bit different from English because of the way they handle verbs,

And the first time Red speaks Italian outside of lessons, would he handle his verbs in the English or the Italian manner? Would he get the gender of his 'big box' correct?

None of this would prevent him from being understood, but it's the sort of thing that would make him clearly new to the language. (And vice versa - what sort of mistakes would someone who only ever spoke Italian make when first trying to speak English?)

It does have an affix (-n) to mark the object of the sentence, so you can be free with word order,

Huh. Now I wonder how Yoda speaks in the Esperanto translation of Star Wars. (Is there even an Esperanto translation?)

The colour 'red' in Afrikaans would be 'rooi' (pronounced the same as the name Roy) (and yes, if you're familiar with rooibos tea, 'rooibos' is Arikaans for 'red bush')

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (21 days later)

Honestly, I think until relatively recently, vampires didn't really bother with what their humans heard them saying. They live a short time and can't read or write so who are they going to tell? The odd conversation aided by a magic mirror being overheard was not really a concern when a vampire visiting you across the nation would be a relatively rare event.

Would he get the gender of his 'big box' correct?

In Italian, yes, because the nouns end in -a or -o and the gender corresponds almost universally. So a big box would be una grande scatola, and a big table would be un grande tavolo - that's probably a bad example as 'big' is an irregular adjective. A regular adjective like 'fat' would be grossa/grosso for f/m respectively to give you an idea. So Red might accidentally say una granda scatola not knowing the adjectives

what sort of mistakes would someone who only ever spoke Italian make when first trying to speak English?

I can generally pick up on people writing in English who speak French as a first language (or maybe not - toupee fallacy and all). There's word choices that are slightly off and little grammatical things here and there that I can't think of off the top of my head.

Now I wonder how Yoda speaks in the Esperanto translation of Star Wars. (Is there even an Esperanto translation?)

No esperanto translation of star wars, though there's an esperanto language wikipedia article of course.

A book of esperanto movie quotes has Yoda's most famous line:

Do, or do not. There is no "try" = Fari, aŭ ne. Ne estas "provi" = "[to do] or not. There is no [to try]"

(infinitives are in square brackets because English doesn't have infinitives as one word; below I am also putting esperanto words that come out to multiple words in English in square brackets). So it's a pretty literal translation.

There's also a few translations on an esperanto message board:

"Powerful you have become, the dark side I sense in you." = Fortega vi iĝis, la mallumflankon mi sentas en vi. = "[very strong] you became, the [dark side] I [hear/feel/smell] in you"

"Patience you must have, my young padawan." = Paciencon vi devas havi, mia juna padawano. = "patience you must [to have], my young padawan"

(not being very into esperanto I'm not really in a position to make a proclamation on this, but I'd probably translate padawan into esperanto using the esperanto roots available, since I think that's considered "best practise" - so you'd make a word that means [student][magic][taken at a young age] or something)

"Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future." = Malfacilas (antaŭ)vidi. Ĉiam moviĝanta estas la estonto. = " [Not easy] [to (fore)see]. Always moving is the future"

"Around the survivors a perimeter create." = Ĉirkaŭ la postvivintoj perimetron kreu. = "Around the [people who are living afterwards] [a perimeter] [create (imperative tense)]

Like I said before, esperanto tends to be SVO so altering the order, even if it's still grammatical, would have a similar effect.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (22 days later)

Honestly, I think until relatively recently, vampires didn't really bother with what their humans heard them saying. They live a short time and can't read or write so who are they going to tell?

...that makes sense.

In Italian, yes, because the nouns end in -a or -o and the gender corresponds almost universally.

That is way better than the German system (which as far as I can tell is generally arbitrary).

But those rare exceptions will still trip up most new speakers.

So Red might accidentally say una granda scatola not knowing the adjectives

Worse, if he forgets the word for 'big' it's not impossible that he might say una... una grossa scatola - knowing that it's not quite correct, but also that it communicates the right idea.

I can generally pick up on people writing in English who speak French as a first language (or maybe not - toupee fallacy and all). There's word choices that are slightly off and little grammatical things here and there that I can't think of off the top of my head.

Yeah... different languages have different sort of signature errors. Someone who grew up with Afrikaans and is just learning English might easily say "I'll throw you with a pie!" instead of "I'll hit you with a pie!" or "I'll throw a pie at you!"

Similarly, when I was at university I once proofread a document written by someone who'd grown up with Mandarin, and there were singular/plural verb/noun disagreements everywhere (something like "there is three cows in the field" or "one of them are a bull") and a near-complete lack of the word 'the'.

So I can readily believe that if one really studies the matter, one can probably predict the first language of a second-language English speaker by a study of their grammatical errors with strong confidence.

(infinitives are in square brackets because English doesn't have infinitives as one word; below I am also putting esperanto words that come out to multiple words in English in square brackets)

That's a good way to do it. (How would you handle the case when a language splits a word that's one word in English into two words and then puts those two words at different places in the sentence?)

[Yoda quotes]

Hmmm. Interesting.

Like I said before, esperanto tends to be SVO so altering the order, even if it's still grammatical, would have a similar effect.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (22 days later)

The French system is the same as the German: no rhyme or reason. There's a few rules of thumb: -e is generally feminine, -ion is generally feminine, etc. There's some more that I've forgotten but they're meant to in concert be correct 80% of the time. When I write in French I just do what "feels" right and accept that I might sound like an idiot sometimes because I get a gender wrong.

different languages have different sort of signature errors.

And it so happened that I was reading a recipe written by a native french speaker this morning and I found one of the signature French-speaker English "quirks":

If you are not a fan of coconut, don’t worry you can’t taste it. This cake is so chocolatey it is covering the coconut flavor.

"it is [gerund]" is a weird affectation that seems common in French natives, since an English native would say "the cake is so chocolatey it covers the coconut flavour" - which is weird because after studying a fr-en dictionary and doing some exploration with the very scientific google translate the French use the verb cover in the same sort of way, and the French don't have a particular love for the gerund.

So I can readily believe that if one really studies the matter, one can probably predict the first language of a second-language English speaker by a study of their grammatical errors with strong confidence.

There's a program that guesses your English dialect: http://archive.gameswithwords.org/WhichEnglish/

Here's what I get:

Our top three guesses for your English dialect:

1. New Zealandish
2. Australian
3. Welsh (UK)

Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:

1. English
2. Norwegian
3. Dutch

South African English is apparently one of the things it guesses, so you can see how well it does for you...

How would you handle the case when a language splits a word that's one word in English into two words and then puts those two words at different places in the sentence?

Good question. I can't think of Esperanto doing that but French does it with negations. It really would depend on what I was trying to communicate.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (22 days later)

The French system is the same as the German: no rhyme or reason. There's a few rules of thumb:

There's rules of thumb in German, too. The major one there is that if it is actually referring to a person, then the gender usually matches the person (i.e. 'waiter' would be male, 'waitress' would be female, etc.).

I say usually for a reason. The German word for 'little girl' is neuter.

If you are not a fan of coconut, don’t worry you can’t taste it. This cake is so chocolatey it is covering the coconut flavor.

...I don't even pick up on that as odd phrasing at all, for some reason. Both "it is covering" and "it covers" pass through my parsing routines without so much as a flicker. (Though, looking at it again, I think that "This cake is so chocolatey that it is covering the coconut flavor" might be technically more correct).

There's a program that guesses your English dialect: http://archive.gameswithwords.org/WhichEnglish/

Ooooh, that does look like fun. Let's see what I get...

Our top three guesses for your English dialect:

1. South African
2. Canadian
3. Australian

Our top three guesses for your native (first) language:

1. English
2. Norwegian
3. Dutch

South African, first language English. Nailed it perfectly. (The Dutch in there probably reflects some slight influence from Afrikaans - because Afrikaans is to Dutch more or less what American is to English).

Good question. I can't think of Esperanto doing that but French does it with negations. It really would depend on what I was trying to communicate.

Going back to Afrikaans, let's consider the sentence "I like to read books." This would translate to "Ek hou om boeke te lees", where the words mean:

• Ek: I
• Hou: Like
• Boeke: Books
• Lees: Read
• Om te: To

So, Afrikaans takes the word 'to' and splits it into different places in the sentence.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (22 days later)

Both "it is covering" and "it covers" pass through my parsing routines without so much as a flicker.

That's strange! I'd mark "it is covering the coconut flavour" as wrong on a test... "It is covering" has the connotation of the covering happening now or continuously, I think?? Eh. Life is weird!!!

South African, first language English. Nailed it perfectly.

Yeah I don't know why it thought I spoke New Zealand English before Australian. My Dad lived in NZ for a few years but I can't imagine a country my Dad lived in for a short period of his life before I was born is in any way representative. Perhaps it's West Australian English VS East Australian English that is causing that difference.

It's interesting to see the logic behind the expressions. There are some expressions on the list that it has that I see as being clearly from one or another variety of English and then there's ones where I'm like "I actually can't believe that people would make that construction"...

Afrikaans is to Dutch more or less what American is to English

Are they mutually intelligible? I always thought they'd diverged further than that.

So, Afrikaans takes the word 'to' and splits it into different places in the sentence.

It's interesting because 'to' is an auxiliary verb used to make the word "read" an infinitive (or at least I assume so - you wouldn't use "om te" to say "I am going to work" or "I gave my money to the robber"?). I thought English was weird for having "to read","to walk", etc when European languages (and latin) use just one word "lire","marcher"

u/CCC_037 [+2] (22 days later)

"It is covering" has the connotation of the covering happening now or continuously, I think??

So does "it covers". And it is happening, the cake is right there and the chocolate is completely overwhelming the coconut flavour!

My Dad lived in NZ for a few years but I can't imagine a country my Dad lived in for a short period of his life before I was born is in any way representative.

Maybe he picked up some minor grammatical habit there, which you have since picked up as 'usual' from him?

It's interesting to see the logic behind the expressions. There are some expressions on the list that it has that I see as being clearly from one or another variety of English and then there's ones where I'm like "I actually can't believe that people would make that construction"...

Most of them I could see what they meant but had no idea where they were from. (Some of them I suspect might not be used anywhere, and were simply inserted into the test to allow them to discard results from people who decided to just tick all the boxes).

Are [Afrikaans and Dutch] mutually intelligible? I always thought they'd diverged further than that.

I don't personally know any Dutch speakers, but I have it on good authority that the answer is 'yes, as long as you both speak slowly'. One comparison I came across said they were as far apart as Received Pronounciation English and deep Southern American, if that helps.

As far as it goes in writing, Afrikaans did to Dutch spelling something similar to what the Americans did to English spelling, but I have managed to struggle through an article written in Dutch before.

or at least I assume so - you wouldn't use "om te" to say "I am going to work"

You would. "Ek gaan om te werk". (Gaan - go, werk - work)

or "I gave my money to the robber"

Here you wouldn't. "Ek het my geld na die dief gegee." ('To' in this sense is 'na').

I thought English was weird for having "to read","to walk", etc when European languages (and latin) use just one word "lire","marcher"

Now you know that some languages double down on that.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (22 days later)

And it is happening, the cake is right there and the chocolate is completely overwhelming the coconut flavour

grumble grumble I don't know it just doesn't feel right TO ME

Maybe he picked up some minor grammatical habit there, which you have since picked up as 'usual' from him?

I think more likely Western Australian English is different from Eastern Australian English and it's got some affectations in common with New Zealand English... I should see what other people in my city get. (Unfortunately my husband was born in South Australia)

Here's some maps of Australian vocabulary: https://lingroadshow.com/resources/englishes-in-australia/vocabulary/mapping-words-around-australia/

(For the record: potato scallop/hash brown; bathers; drinking fountain; sausage sizzle; blood nose; canteen; pants when I speak normally but aunts if I'm speaking formally; deli; icy pole; most of them though pashing was popular when I was in high school c. 2004 and hook up a few years later; haha; awesome)

(Some of them I suspect might not be used anywhere, and were simply inserted into the test to allow them to discard results from people who decided to just tick all the boxes)

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the more bizarre ones make sense in certain places... it's amazing what language is common

Afrikaans did to Dutch spelling something similar to what the Americans did to English spelling, but I have managed to struggle through an article written in Dutch before.

Probably Afrikaans did worse then because I find American articles smoothly readable with no effort; a missing -u every now and again doesn't alter anything for me.

[afrikaans and 'to']

Interesting, thanks! Especially:

Ek het my geld na die dief gegee

So I get... I, give, my, money, to, the, "dief gegee" - I guess that's a compound word meaning robber?

Now you know that some languages double down on that.

And how!

So I read this article (okay listened to it being read out on a podcast): https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/productivity/project-management/how-to-overcome-perfectionism and now I'm thinking I should actually make good on the remark in the valentine's thread that nobody cared about and try releasing my story on a "one chapter a month" schedule. I wanted to release it one chapter a week but there's 13 chapters (each with an interlude afterwards, so I could release the interlude two weeks after to kind of keep the content trickling), so I can basically release my mostly-perfect first half dozen chapters over six months and then the feedback will either completely demotivate me or will inspire me to work harder at it. If I get the thing finished up earlier I can always accelerate the release schedule after all... 

So, of course, I'm critically eyeing my potentially overworked as it is first few paragraphs of my first chapter and wondering if they've got enough *oomph* to try and hook in some people who would find the premise of sexy vampires dicey.

Since we've kind of gotten into language discussion instead of what we came here for - sexy vampires - I'd welcome your opinion on my first "section". I think I showed you my *original original* first section which I'm kind of ashamed of how bad it was now, so if you remember that, hopefully you'll be super impressed by what follows:

----

Rome, 1944

Operas were dangerous as it was. Nothing less was to be expected, with a hundred powerful vampires gathered so close together for two long weeks. And during this opera, less than a hundred miles away, two human armies fought one another in a war that had begun four and a half years ago.

But the vampires paid it little mind; William, the eldest attending the opera, had lived through countless wars. He had fought in several, even had occasion to command armies. The war was not of interest to him; the opera was a rare treat. 

There was no talk of cancelling it; no thought was paid to deferring to petty human squabbles. The opera itself had been planned for decades, and the city of Rome was a perfectly safe place to be, even though war was raging in Anzio some fifty kilometres to the south.

William had chosen to attend the opera not just because he was a great admirer of the librettist but because it afforded him an opportunity to meet with other popular members of high society. He had been isolated in Australia for some eighty years, and he wanted to reacquaint himself with the Europeans that he had close ties with. No doubt they would be clamoring to meet with him; he held a kingdom that was known to vampires as New Holland. Consisting of approximately forty percent of Australia’s western land mass, it was among the largest held by anybody. Admittedly, its population was far smaller than some cities that were controlled by lesser vampires elsewhere; but he had always been fond of having control over large swathes of land, and there was more than enough prey for him there. 

He had checked into his hotel the night before the first night of the opera. Such operas were so intricately plotted that many of their stories could not be told in anything less than fifty hours; this one was scheduled for seventy-five. The night porter had picked up his luggage - three more-or-less ordinary suitcases and six heavy wooden trunks that were anything but ordinary - and carried them, item by item, into one of the specially-prepared rooms that the hotel kept for the patrons that requested them. There was something about the night porter that intrigued William; he kept on running his gloved hands through his thick black hair, hesitating before he spoke. William could sense an odd, generalised fear in him. He was disappointed that the hotel still discouraged feeding on its staff. He would have loved to become better acquainted. 

Were it not for the opera, William may not have thought any more of the night porter. However, like all of his kind, William was a slave to fashion.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (23 days later)

grumble grumble I don't know it just doesn't feel right TO ME

Fair enough, I guess...

(For the record: potato scallop/hash brown; bathers; drinking fountain; sausage sizzle; blood nose; canteen; pants when I speak normally but aunts if I'm speaking formally; deli; icy pole; most of them though pashing was popular when I was in high school c. 2004 and hook up a few years later; haha; awesome)

Hmmm.

For me: Why would you want to batter the potatoes when you can make slap chips from them instead?, Cossie, Tap, Boerewors roll, Nosebleed, Tuck shop, Aunts, Cafe (or corner cafe), lollipop or sucker, kiss ('hook up' is for dating), Bwahaha (with or without laughing Pinkie ponymote), I personally like to be a bit more specific but 'cool' is popular here.

You have some strange language. Where does that 'by jingo' come from?

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the more bizarre ones make sense in certain places... it's amazing what language is common

Yeah, I can imagine that the most bizarre ones make sense somewhere - their test phrases (if there are any) probably look pretty innocuous.

Probably Afrikaans did worse then because I find American articles smoothly readable with no effort; a missing -u every now and again doesn't alter anything for me.

One of the most visible things Afrikaans did was replace ij with y in a lot of words. Maybe it's just because I'm not used to it, but all those ij's when I was expecting y's really threw me off.

Ek het my geld na die dief gegee

So I get... I, give, my, money, to, the, "dief gegee" - I guess that's a compound word meaning robber?

Er... no.

• Ek: I
• het: did
• my: my (the spelling is the same but not the pronounciation)
• geld: money
• na: to
• die: the
• dief: thief
• gegee: give (past tense)

Bear in mind, word order in Afrikaans is almost always different.

[Excerpt]

Dramatic improvement. In the header, I know when and where we are, and in the first paragraph, the shadow of War already hangs over the scene.

Then we have our main character being introduced, and we know he's a vampire and returning to polite society after a period of seclusion. There's hints that there are entire social structures to support vampires (the hotel's special rooms, and no-feeding-on-guests rule).

It's an introduction, so a small amount of telling is not completely out of place in order to set the scene; however, now that the scene is set, I expect that there will be a lot more showing in future scenes.

All in all, yes, dramatic improvement. Well done!

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (23 days later)

Why would you want to batter the potatoes when you can make slap chips from them instead?,

It's not a whole potato: it's like this: http://keithsfoods.com.au/images/products/large/r6qrs31uf1.jpg - though slap chips is a new one! We call them all hot chips, though we use fries sometimes but those refer only to the shoestring ones and only in the context of mcdonald's/hungry jacks(what we call burger king)...

I understood the terms: Cossie, Nosebleed, Tuck Shop,

I understand this term to mean something different: Tap (faucet), Cafe (is different from a deli: a cafe has tables and chairs and you can order coffee, cakes, and usually breakfast/lunch: a deli is a little store like a 7-11), Lollipop/sucker (to me this is a candy that can be stored at room temperature; an icey pole is frozen).

I have never heard the term Boerewors roll, and looking it up on google images, it seems to describe a hot dog? A sausage sizzle is differrent: http://c8.alamy.com/comp/EFT3XP/sausage-sizzle-fundraiser-in-australia-EFT3XP.jpg - it uses a piece of sandwich bread rather than a hot dog roll.

You have some strange language. Where does that 'by jingo' come from?

According to wikipedia: The expression "by Jingo" is apparently a minced oath that appeared rarely in print, but which may be traced as far back as to at least the 17th century in a transparent euphemism for "by Jesus".

Bear in mind, word order in Afrikaans is almost always different.

Lesson learned...

It's an introduction, so a small amount of telling is not completely out of place in order to set the scene; however, now that the scene is set, I expect that there will be a lot more showing in future scenes.

The very next scene is honestly much the same and I'm still not 100% satisfied with it but I'm trying not to let perfectionism get the best of me... :/ But after that I think it gets better; and what I sent you yesterday plus the below makes 1.5 pages so I should stop overthinking it. 1.5 pages of beginning exposition in a ~150 page novel is completely fine!

---

Halfway through the opera’s fifteen day duration, William knew that it would be remembered for the ages. Its legendary librettist and composer had laid the groundwork for a beautiful tale, with hundreds of disparate elements coming together. The thread that William found himself drawn to was the story of a young vampire, some hundred years of age, who was pursuing the love of a human princess. Romances between vampires and humans were by no means unheard of, but it was a shameful secret of those that participated in it. It was the low-status sort of thing done by a young one who missed his old life, or, worse still, who did not care for his reputation. No reputable vampire, especially one of such advanced age as William, would ever debase themself so.

It was revolutionary that such a relationship be included in an opera at all, let alone be a major element of one so prestigious. He eagerly participated in the discussion. The opinions varied. Some thought it was only sensible for a young vampire to bring himself into a powerful human political position and that the princess would be a pawn and discarded. Others thought it was scandalous that such a relationship should be shown at all, and predicted it would end in tragedy.

William was a member of the cohort of the oldest vampires still living. In his time he had seen a great many of these performances and watched a great many trends in vampire society be born and die. The people in the audience speculating about the significance of the relationship with the princess seemed more excited than scandalised by it. And Vettori, the librettist, had a reputation as a trendsetter: an opera of hers had made the use of personal body doubles widespread amongst respectable vampires. Then, two hundred years later, a second opera had brought the practice into disrepute; a sign of earlier, less unified times. He thought back to his doppelganger, still hidden in a coffin in the basement of an Australian church. He had been caught up in it then, too.

William was coming to suspect that having a human lover would soon be in vogue. He had heard a human lover required a horrific combination of constant attention and patience: keeping one could well become a new display of extravagance. And vampires, who as a rule could afford most creature comforts, loved nothing more than austentatious gestures of luxury.

As he made the short walk back to his hotel, he imagined a rival Queen’s jealous glare if he visited her ten years from now with a human woman on his arm; he imagined how her Dukes and Duchesses would gossip amongst themselves, wondering what could be taking so much of their Queen’s time that she could not afford to win a human’s affections. He thought of how impressive his will, intelligence and social integration skills would seem by comparison. He smiled as he crossed the threshold into the Albergo di Sole al Pantheon, thinking that the hypothetical Dukes and Duchesses might cede their allegiances to him, all over a human woman. He wondered if he might try to charm one.

In those early morning hours, the hotel front desk was staffed by the same night porter that had moved his luggage. Each time, the porter gave William a polite greeting in his heavily accented Italian. He had never thought it worth any acknowledgement.

But tonight, with his thoughts where they were, William couldn’t help but take note of the precise angle that the night porter was wearing his hat at this evening; the place he had rolled his sleeves up to, and the number of times he had folded each sleeve to do it. To a vampire, such aspects of attire were carefully composed, and each button, each fold, and each accessory added meaning to the outfit. If the porter had been a vampire, he would be signalling to a superior that he wished to discuss an allegiance. It was unambiguous. It was absurd; he had never heard of a human stumbling upon a coherent message like that. He wondered what reason another vampire would have to dress him up like this, to tell this message from a human’s point of view - and as humans went, this foreigner was as lowly as they came.

So this time, instead of continuing straight up the stairs, he paused at the desk for a moment and returned the young man’s greeting, meeting his brown eyes with a small smile.

William found himself hoping that the night porter himself meant to signal William, rather than being dressed like a vampire’s doll.

As he walked up the stairs to his room, William shook his head. Fashionable or not, it was a silly idea.

---

All in all, yes, dramatic improvement. Well done!

Thanks!!!

u/CCC_037 [+2] (24 days later)

It's not a whole potato: it's like this: http://keithsfoods.com.au/images/products/large/r6qrs31uf1.jpg

So it's basically deep-fried potato slices in batter?

I don't recall ever having come across that before, and I certainly don't know what it would have been called...

I understand this term to mean something different: Tap (faucet),

Tap - any little device that you turn or push or twiddle in some way and drinkable water (or other liquids, as in the case of say a tap attached to a wine barrel or an oil tanker, but generally drinkable water) comes out. "Faucet" isn't used here - I always thought that it was an Americanisation of the word 'tap'. Why, does it mean something different to this definition?

Cafe - "Deli" generally isn't used here, and what you describe sounds more like a restaurant.

Lollipop/sucker - Can also be used for the room temperature sort (and in fact is generally used for that in any case).

I have never heard the term Boerewors roll, and looking it up on google images, it seems to describe a hot dog?

Similar, but not the same. A hot dog can use any old sausage, including those sort of pinkish sausage-in-name-only kind of sausages.

A boerewors roll requires actual boerewors (Afrikaans for "farmer's sausage"), which has some strict quality requirements (90% meat, no more than 30% fat, and spiced, often with coriander or similar) before it can carry that name. (Though any old bun will do.) Can be served with onions, or tomato sauce, or chutney according to taste.

Never heard of a name for putting the wors on sandwich bread, though.

According to wikipedia: The expression "by Jingo" is apparently a minced oath that appeared rarely in print, but which may be traced as far back as to at least the 17th century in a transparent euphemism for "by Jesus".

This does not explain why it's listed on your Australian vocabulary page as a possible name for a frozen, water-based sweet treat, though...

[excerpt]

I see what you mean... you're still doing a lot of telling (which is fine in moderation in order to set the scene in the introduction - all that about the history of trends in vampire society, for example) and what showing you are doing is exclusively in terms of the sense of sight.

So I agree with you that it's not perfect. But presumably you're familiar with the proverb, The perfect is the enemy of the good?

What you have here is good, and the fact that it is not perfect should not prevent you from ever moving on and getting it out.

You're right, one and a half pages of exposition is not a bad thing.

Though that scene at the end, when William meets the night porter for the second time (I'm guessing that's Red) - that might (depending on how things flow in the beginning) work better relegated to the start of the first chapter after the introduction, and properly Shown. (At the moment, it's kind of half-Told still, sort of on the fence between Telling and Showing; and since it's done in the present tense at the time of the first chapter, it's the sort of thing that can easily be Shown once the scene is established).

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (24 days later)

So it's basically deep-fried potato slices in batter? I don't recall ever having come across that before

I guess a lot of the terms are Australian cultural things because otherwise international influence would change our stuff too much? (Then why are canteens not called cafeterias and bathers swimsuits? We can never know)

Tap - any little device that you turn or push or twiddle in some way and drinkable water (or other liquids, as in the case of say a tap attached to a wine barrel or an oil tanker, but generally drinkable water) comes out. "Faucet" isn't used here - I always thought that it was an Americanisation of the word 'tap'. Why, does it mean something different to this definition?

Yeah, we don't use faucet either, but I wanted to use an unambiguous term.

The term referenced in the article is talking about these things: http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTY1WDg1MA==/z/VRwAAOSwLqFV8Vfr/$_32.JPG?set_id=880000500F - I call them water fountains but some places in Aus call them 'bubblers'...

Cafe - "Deli" generally isn't used here, and what you describe sounds more like a restaurant.

Restaurant is different from a cafe: a restaurant would be open at night (usually) and a cafe in the daytime. Cafe is more casual - you would order and pay at the counter rather than getting a bill at the end of your meal. Cafes sell takeaway coffee, restaurants don't. Cafes might not sell food apart from cakes, or might not sell anything more substantial than a pre-made sandwich. A cafe would have seating though: the same sort of thing without much seating and aimed at a more blue collar clientele is called a "lunch bar", and I worked at one for a couple of years during uni.

Lollipop/sucker - Can also be used for the room temperature sort (and in fact is generally used for that in any case).

Huh. Interesting!

which has some strict quality requirements (90% meat, no more than 30% fat, and spiced, often with coriander or similar) before it can carry that name.

Huh, we have something like that for ANZAC biscuits (a traditional type of "cookie" sent to Australian soldiers fighting in WW1). There's a law that says what is and isn't allowed to be called an ANZAC biscuit and what ingredients are allowed. (You can never say ANZAC cookie due to "non-Australian overtones"...)

https://www.dva.gov.au/commemorations-memorials-and-war-graves/protecting-word-anzac

Never heard of a name for putting the wors on sandwich bread, though.

Another delightful cultural innovation! Sausage sizzles are generally done to raise money for charity or local school / sporting clubs. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Sausage

This does not explain why it's listed on your Australian vocabulary page as a possible name for a frozen, water-based sweet treat, though...

No comment.... Was it in Queensland? They're not real Australians...

I see what you mean... you're still doing a lot of telling (which is fine in moderation in order to set the scene in the introduction - all that about the history of trends in vampire society, for example) and what showing you are doing is exclusively in terms of the sense of sight.

After discussions with you and callme-whatever-we-call-him-now I've decided I'm going to give each chapter a sense-oriented readthrough prior to posting, so hopefully I'll catch on that.

What you have here is good, and the fact that it is not perfect should not prevent you from ever moving on and getting it out.

Yeah, that's my logic / what the podcast got me thinking, and I can always edit it later: I am planning on putting this on Amazon for $2 eventually so promising people a "better experience" might be good.

Though that scene at the end, when William meets the night porter for the second time (I'm guessing that's Red) - that might (depending on how things flow in the beginning) work better relegated to the start of the first chapter after the introduction, and properly Shown. (At the moment, it's kind of half-Told still, sort of on the fence between Telling and Showing; and since it's done in the present tense at the time of the first chapter, it's the sort of thing that can easily be Shown once the scene is established).

Good point, I'll think on that! Thanks.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (25 days later)

I guess a lot of the terms are Australian cultural things because otherwise international influence would change our stuff too much?

Makes sense.

The term referenced in the article is talking about these things: http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTY1WDg1MA==/z/VRwAAOSwLqFV8Vfr/$_32.JPG?set_id=880000500F - I call them water fountains but some places in Aus call them 'bubblers'...

I'd still say 'tap', though 'drinking fountain' or 'water fountain' would be understood around here. 'Bubbler' would get you polite incomprehension.

Restaurant is different from a cafe: a restaurant would be open at night (usually)

What, in case of a sudden urge for midnight snacks?

There's a franchise around here called Mugg & Bean - they specialise in coffee (one of the items on the menu is a Bottomless Cup Of Coffee, which basically means all the free refills you want) but will also sell food to go with it. They have tables at which to sit and are generally open during the day.

They count as a restaurant here, though from your description I don't think they would in Australia.

Huh, we have something like that for ANZAC biscuits (a traditional type of "cookie" sent to Australian soldiers fighting in WW1).

Hmmm. Interesting...

Sausage sizzles are generally done to raise money for charity or local school / sporting clubs.

We use boerewors rolls in similar circumstances. Not so iconic on election days, but certainly well-known as a fundraiser.

No comment.... Was it in Queensland? They're not real Australians...

I don't know where it was, I just saw it on the legend on the side of the map.

And is that a classic "No True Scotsman" fallacy I see there?

After discussions with you and callme-whatever-we-call-him-now I've decided I'm going to give each chapter a sense-oriented readthrough prior to posting, so hopefully I'll catch on that.

Excellent!

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (25 days later)

They count as a restaurant here, though from your description I don't think [Mugg & Bean] would in Australia.

(looks up the website) - okay, first of all, when I search for locations you can select "generator" as an option??? Are power outages that common that a restaurant having a generator is a feature? Wow.

Anyway, yeah, looking at the menu, they look like a cafe to me. They remind me of the Coffee Club http://www.coffeeclub.com.au/

Not so iconic on election days

Yeah, we have compulsory voting so it gives us some election-related cultural touchstones (you walk to the local primary school, vote, have a sausage sizzle and buy a cake...).

senses in writing

also i'm pretty proud i wrote two passages with lots of senses yesterday!!!! And the senses were SO helpful in making the thing work... and the entire riffing off each other only happened because I started putting effort into senses and started wondering how a sleeping vampire would feel....

(so here they are - they kind of go together)

---

William had told Red to expect letters and packages from friends of his, but it still came as a surprise when the first one arrived in the midday post. An ordinary-looking, though large, beige envelope with William’s name and their address in Corsica written on it in clear cursive. It was as thick as a newspaper and the rich, solid paper smelled faintly of cinnamon. Red placed the envelope on a table in the sitting room, not thinking much of it.

When the sun started to set, Red climbed into the bed beside the insensible vampire, waiting for him to wake up. He reflected how his undead state was most obvious when William slept: he didn’t breathe and his body would grow cold as the day wore on, only warming completely half an hour after he woke. The cold he could have gotten used to, given time. But he wasn’t sure he’d ever get used to the way William’s whole body gradually grew stiff as a log before freezing in place several hours after sunrise. It remained so until William woke up.

Red snuggled close to William’s naked body and pulled the heavy covers over the pair of them, trying in vain to bring some warmth to the rigid corpse. He let himself lay there for a few minutes, as he always did, enjoying the feeling of the soft bed supporting his side and the warmth from the blanket. Gingerly, he stroked William’s hair: it felt dry and lifeless. He was pretty sure that’s how it always felt, regardless of whether he was awake or asleep - but at that moment it felt more like one the hair of his sister’s dolls, after it had been taken by the dog and buried in the garden. Dull and stringy and lifeless. Red took his hand away. He was sure he’d get used to it.

Mercifully, he felt the muscles in William’s right shoulder relax. The somnolent curse was lifting. Red eagerly rubbed the shoulder, the only animate part of William’s body. The softening spread to the whole right arm, which Red pulled around his back, encouraging it to hold him tightly. Finally, the eyes fluttered open, the mouth contorting into the barest imitation of a smile as more and more facial muscles became engaged in the task and the smile grew softer and genuine.

“Hi.” Red smiled, moving his hand back up to the hair, the hair that now felt soft and smooth and animate as the minute twitches in William’s face made it make the tiniest lively movements.

“Hello.” William moved his right hand from Red’s waist to his face, cupping Red’s jaw, pulling Red closer to kiss him. Red enjoyed the moment of closeness: the coldness of William’s lips at the beginning of the evening was growing familiar, now, rather than shocking. “I trust you had a good day?”

Red nodded. “Yes, I spoke to the headmaster of the school. He said I could help with the grounds, since they don’t have a groundskeeper anymore.”

“Ah, the war?”

“Yeah.” Red tried not to dwell on it: it would put him in a mood. “So I spent a bit of time cutting some trees. It was good. Hard, but good.” He paused. “A letter came for you, by the way.”

“Really?” William pulled away from Red, throwing the heavy blanket aside. “Do you know who it’s from?”

“Um, Cassius something.”

“Excellent. I have been expecting to hear from him.” William climbed out of bed. Red sighed; he had hoped the letter could wait a few minutes.

“Well, I think he had a lot to say.” Red muttered, climbing out of bed and putting his slippers on. He watched as William got dressed, moving with speed beyond human capabilities. William carefully selected a pair of heavy black trousers, a long-sleeved pale red shirt, a navy blue striped tie, and a pair of black suspenders.

William smiled. “Yes, Cassius is rather talkative.” He pulled on a pair of white socks, along with some shiny black shoes. After this flurry of sartorial activity, the room smelled faintly of laundry soap. “Can you bring me the letter?”

Red nodded. “Sure, I’ll go get it.” He went into the sitting room - opening the two doors out of the bedroom to do so - picked up the envelope, and brought it to the bedroom. William was looking intently at the mirror, having combed his hair neatly in the short time Red was gone. He made some minute adjustments to his hair, and turned to look at Red. As Red held out the envelope, William frowned.

“Ah, I should have mentioned. When my friends send me letters, there will be two envelopes. The outer envelope gets dirty, so I would like for you to remove it and present me only with the inner one.”

Red nodded. “Sure, I can do that.” William seemed obsessed with cleanliness, insisting his clothes were laundered after each time they were worn, wearing gloves whenever he left the house, and outright refusing to touch many things. It stood to reason that an envelope with even the barest smudge would be unacceptable to him.

So Red gently tore at the envelope; William cringed. “Next time, use a letter opener. I will provide you with one.”

Red nodded. “Oh, right. Sorry.” He kept tearing, breaking the wax seal, revealing a second envelope, identical to the first though smaller. It, too, was sealed with wax, though the symbol was larger and more detailed than the one stamped into the outer envelope. The back of the envelope was written in what looked like Italian, though Red only understood a few words. He turned the letter over and examined the front of the envelope; it was covered in symbols he didn’t recognise: arrows, wavy lines, a backwards ‘R’, and even one that looked like a pair of closed eyes. He was glad he knew William was a vampire, because otherwise all of this foreign script would have convinced him that William was a spy.

William must have seen the expression on Red’s face, because he grinned. “My friends and I write in code and foreign languages.” He said, by way of explanation.

“Of course.” Red murmured, staring at the back of the envelope. “What does it say?”

William took the envelope from Red, examining the back. “It is Cassius’ name, written in full.”

“In full?”

“We give each other titles, and claim them for ourselves. Let me show you.” He paused, reading from the back of the envelope. “It says here… God-king Cassius of the Eternal City, respected advisor of Magnus, long-awaited child of Tibillus, he who listens with a patient ear...” William paused for a moment, to think of the right word. “The pranker of the third council, the wolf, the one with the iron toe, theif of dignity, keeper of the text.”

“Wow.” Red murmured. “There’s… a lot.”

“Cassius is old and proud.” William paused. “I am afraid I must take some time to read this. Will you be able to prepare your own dinner?”

---

Here's the second one, it takes place in Columbus after the obligatory breakup that must happen in all romance novels to make you worried they may never find true love together:

---

Red woke up to a horrendous wheezing noise. His head throbbed behind his eyes, his throat was dry. He’d had his fair share of hangovers, but this might be the worst yet. He yawned, trying to remember what had happened the previous night. He realised with a start that he wasn’t in his bedroom; a pale pink bedspread, patterned with yellow roses. Pale blue walls.

He felt something moving in the bed beside him; he had to stop himself from crying out in surprise. It was coming back to him now. The alcohol, the way the woman - what was her name? - the way she smiled and laughed at him, he remembered her freckles and her straight black hair. He’d liked her, liked being around her, in a way he hadn’t liked anyone in a very, very long time. He’d like her even before the whiskey came out, though it had helped. Helped both of them, no doubt.

But now, the next morning, he regretted it. The heat her body gave off was unbearable, and her body was so sticky, slick with what he knew was only the barest hint of sweat, but to his hands it felt like slime. And the way her body was soft - he gently placed a hand to her shoulder and felt her flesh slide around beneath his touch like treacle. It was unnatural. And the way she moved, just a little, leaning into his touch and making a small noise.

Red felt he was going to be sick. It wasn’t just the warm, stinky, toad-like creature beside him; the stench of the room - sweat, perfume - and the whiskey all came to him. He climbed out of the bed, keeping his eyes half-closed, each movement reverberating through his aching skull. He pulled on his underwear, his slacks and a shirt and carefully made his way down the stairs, out of the house.

Mercifully, he didn’t encounter anyone; no hypocritical brothers lying in wait, ready to beat him up for besmirching their sister’s honour.

It had been too soon. For whiskey, for girls, for anything. One day, maybe in a few years, it would be time.

He wondered if he would ever get used to the sticky flesh, to the grunting noises in the morning, to the looming threat of making conversation over breakfast.

He staggered out into the light of day, went around a corner, and threw up.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (26 days later)

Are power outages that common that a restaurant having a generator is a feature? Wow.

Not anymore. A few years back, though - as in five or six - there was long, complicated story involving corrupt politicians and a group of businessmen from Dubai who excelled in bribery and using that bribery to basically lever huge wads of cash out of state-owned enterprises, including the national electricity supplier, which had in turn (thanks to a complete lack of foresight mixed with management incompetence) not built any new power stations for for too long - at the worst of the worst of that saga they were cutting off power to entire neighbourhoods for an hour at a time (all scheduled, there was a roster and everything) just to bring the load down.

Then they got new management in and the load-shedding just stopped. (Mind you, the bribery and corruption and patronage went on for a while after that, but the main guy who was pushing that got booted out of office last Wednesday and his replacement is doing a good job talking about cleaning up corruption, so let's see how that works out...)

I can go into more detail if you really want. But it's a whole long story with plenty of extraneous detail.

Anyway, yeah, looking at the menu, they look like a cafe to me. They remind me of the Coffee Club http://www.coffeeclub.com.au/

Yeah... that looks similar.

Yeah, we have compulsory voting so it gives us some election-related cultural touchstones (you walk to the local primary school, vote, have a sausage sizzle and buy a cake...).

We don't have compulsory voting, but voting day is always a public holiday so work doesn't get in the way of voting. There's generally a few stands set up by the various parties to encourage people to vote for them. I'm not sure why I've never seen a boerewors roll stand, though... it would make sense...

also i'm pretty proud i wrote two passages with lots of senses yesterday!!!! And the senses were SO helpful in making the thing work... and the entire riffing off each other only happened because I started putting effort into senses and started wondering how a sleeping vampire would feel....

Yay!

[excerpts]

Hmmm. Lots of touch, that's good. A few hints of sound (could perhaps do with a smidge more background noises here and there, like the sounds of the traffic outside in the second scene worsening Red's headache); excellent use of smell. No taste, but then again no-one was eating anything on-screen either, so that's fine.

A vast improvement! Well done!

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (26 days later)

there was long, complicated story involving corrupt politicians and a group of businessmen from Dubai who excelled in bribery

That's horrible. I want to say more because I feel that how horrible I think this is cannot be overstated but I can't put it into words.

cutting off power to entire neighbourhoods for an hour at a time (all scheduled, there was a roster and everything) just to bring the load down.

... holy crap. We have something like that but it's for which days you have your automatic sprinklers on, to save water... (we have a lot of droughts)

(if you want to use the form, use the post code 6000 and a random street number)

I can go into more detail if you really want. But it's a whole long story with plenty of extraneous detail.

I mean, if you want to go into the detail, feel free, but I think it would just depress me more. I work for a government that has very little problem with corruption and I blow a fuse about how horrible things are here, so hearing about corruption having a very real effect on peoples' day-to-day lives (and I'm just throwing out a wild guess - were poor communities disproportionately affected by the outages?)... it's awful.

For comparison, the biggest scandal we've had in a while in my state is that a mayor didn't properly declare gifts and free flights/accomodation she received; right now there's a national scandal that a conservative polititian (who was against gay marriage for ruining the sanctity of marriage) has just announced he is leaving his wife because he got one of his staff members pregnant, but that's a pretty big one as these things go, and again, is really a personal (if hypocritical) matter rather than, you know, actual corruption.

We also had a scandal where a bunch of politicians turned out to technically have dual citizenship with New Zealand that they hadn't appropriately renounced, and our politicians must only hold one nationality, so a bunch of them had to resign (the first one to do so did it voluntarily and he was a very "cool", social-media savvy member of a very left-wing party; then one of the conservative pollies who gave him shit about it turned out to be a dual NZ citizen too and had to resign...)

Yeah... that looks similar.

At Mugg and Bean, do you pay when you order your food or are there waitstaff who take your order, bring you your food, and then bring you a bill at the end? I feel that paying when you order is a defining feature of a cafe (but not universal), so I'm curious about how things work over there.

There's generally a few stands set up by the various parties to encourage people to vote for them. I'm not sure why I've never seen a boerewors roll stand, though... it would make sense...

The sausage sizzles are the raise money for the schools to get new sports equipment or something, they're not organised by the political parties. (It's illegal for political parties to do anything that would be construed as bribing people to vote for them on election day.)

(could perhaps do with a smidge more background noises here and there, like the sounds of the traffic outside in the second scene worsening Red's headache)

Ooooh, that's a good one! Cheers.

No taste, but then again no-one was eating anything on-screen either, so that's fine.

Could probably talk about how hungover!Red's rank breath stuck to his teeth or something though.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (26 days later)

I mean, if you want to go into the detail, feel free, but I think it would just depress me more.

The good news is, it's looking like it's going to end up having a positive ending.

The major players in this story are Jacob Zuma, (now former) Presedient of South Africa, and the Gupta brothers, Ajay and Atul, businessmen and bribery specialists.

The current situation is that Zuma is (as of last Wednesday) no longer President, having been forced out of that role by his own party in favour of someone (Cyril Ramaphosa) who's really hammering down on corruption, as a result of which Zuma's lost virtually all of his political power; Atul Gupta is currently trying to argue in court that he wasn't involved in certain scandals, and Ajay Gupta is a fugitive from justice, currently being sought by Interpol to answer some very pointed questions about corruption in a dairy farm project.

And, a month or so back, there was this massive leak of a treasure trove of emails to certain newspapers which works out to whole heaps of evidence of corruption on the parts of the Gupta brothers, and there's no way that's going to be ignored by the courts. (We have an excellent and very unbribable court system).

So, you know, the fact that it all happened in the first place isn't great, but it looks like the people involved are going to face legal consequences for their actions.

(and I'm just throwing out a wild guess - were poor communities disproportionately affected by the outages?)

No; there are some informal settlements that don't have electricity at all, but apart from that, load-shedding was quite democratic in its effects. Rich and poor were both hit.

For comparison, the biggest scandal we've had in a while in my state is that a mayor didn't properly declare gifts and free flights/accomodation she received;

Declaring those things are important. Those rules are in place for a reason.

right now there's a national scandal that a conservative polititian (who was against gay marriage for ruining the sanctity of marriage) has just announced he is leaving his wife because he got one of his staff members pregnant,

...the same Jacob Zuma who I mentioned up above currently has - I think - four wives? Five? And, as Nanny Ogg would put it, "that's only the official score".

So, yeah. All the corruption's a bigger story, but...

We also had a scandal where a bunch of politicians turned out to technically have dual citizenship with New Zealand that they hadn't appropriately renounced, and our politicians must only hold one nationality, so a bunch of them had to resign

Your politicians actually resign when they're caught breaking the rules?

Good for you. Ours can be a bit more difficult to dislodge.

At Mugg and Bean, do you pay when you order your food or are there waitstaff who take your order, bring you your food, and then bring you a bill at the end?

There are waitstaff who take your order, bring food and refills for the bottomless coffee, and bring you a bill at the end.

The sausage sizzles are the raise money for the schools to get new sports equipment or something, they're not organised by the political parties. (It's illegal for political parties to do anything that would be construed as bribing people to vote for them on election day.)

Hmmm. We may have similar rules - that might be why I haven't seen boerewors rolls at election days.

Could probably talk about how hungover!Red's rank breath stuck to his teeth or something though.

...it'll make that scene feel even more disgusting.

Which is exactly what you're going for.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (26 days later)

Jacob Zuma

Is he the one who really likes that one type of cow and dodged the rules so he could import and start breeding them? Or is that the new guy?

We have an excellent and very unbribable court system

What makes the courts so unbribable and why do the utility companies and pollies lack it?

it looks like the people involved are going to face legal consequences for their actions.

:D

load-shedding was quite democratic in its effects

That's a surprise; our power outages are sometimes targeted, so areas near hospitals won't lose power (thankfully) but this also extends to places where politicians live... apparently. This might all be rumour.

Declaring those things are important. Those rules are in place for a reason.

Oh yeah; she did the wrong thing, absolutely, but she's not engaged in shifty business to deny people electricity is more what I was getting at...

Your politicians actually resign when they're caught breaking the rules?

Some of them did; others are challenging the rule / saying they should be able to keep their position because they don't use their NZ citizenship / is NZ a real country anyway?

There are waitstaff who take your order, bring food and refills for the bottomless coffee, and bring you a bill at the end.

Ahhh. That's a cultural difference, probably... table service means restaurant but everything else about the place screams cafe. So... I'd find that really weird, to go to a place like that for breakfast and have someone wait on me - someone bringing you food yes, but not the full "table service" experience. I'd imagine if Mugg & Bean franchised to Australia they'd ditch the waitstaff (no doubt it'd save a lot of money as our minimum wage is $20 AUD / hr (185 rand / hr) - though for high schoolers it can go as low as half that).

...it'll make that scene feel even more disgusting.

Which is exactly what you're going for.

I don't even know what I was going for; it was a plot bunny... it was like... if Red got used to the way a vampire is when it's asleep, then a sleeping human would be super weird.

Because... I like the idea of a vampire becoming a corpse during the day: so they effectively "die" at sunrise, and their body slowly grows cold and stiff with rigor mortis, and the blood pools on their back, staining their skin... And then when they wake up at sunset, their body animates again, if they choose to they run their heating cells, pump their blood, etc. I'm sure there's vampires who are beyond caring and just walk around with a livor mortis pattern on their back and their skin pale, unbreathing - or maybe it was in fashion a while, to show you had no need to integrate with humans? Anyway...

u/CCC_037 [+2] (27 days later)

Is he the one who really likes that one type of cow and dodged the rules so he could import and start breeding them? Or is that the new guy?

I don't recall that incident specifically, but honestly, it sounds like the sort of thing Zuma would do. He does keep cattle (cattle have strong cultural importance for Zulus) and he is the sort to ignore the rules if he doesn't like them.

What makes the courts so unbribable and why do the utility companies and pollies lack it?

Judges are appointed for life; the President can't get rid of them. CEO's of utitily companies and the head of the National Prosecuting Authority can be replaced by the President (in the case of the head of the NPA, it seems the previous guy took a large pile of cash in exchange for his resignation). Zuma went about deliberately appointing people who either could be bribed or who would do what he told them to such posts.

That's not to say that all judges are unbribeable, but in general they know that they're pretty much set for life as long as they don't break the rules and accepting bribes goes against the rules.

That's a surprise; our power outages are sometimes targeted, so areas near hospitals won't lose power (thankfully) but this also extends to places where politicians live... apparently. This might all be rumour.

Zuma had (still has) his own country estate. I imagine he has generators of his own in there. Loadshedding almost certainly didn't personally inconvenience him, and I don't imagine he'd have cared much about others.

Hospitals, I believe, were specifically immune though.

Oh yeah; she did the wrong thing, absolutely, but she's not engaged in shifty business to deny people electricity is more what I was getting at...

Zuma wasn't engaged in shifty business with the deliberate intention of denying people electricity, either. He and the Guptas were engaged in shifty business with the deliberate aim of dumping piles of money in their pockets.

The denial of electricity only came in when it turned out that Eskom no longer had enough money to build new power stations and couldn't keep up with increases in demand. And that happened some time later.

Corruption - at first - looks a lot like someone just forgetting to declare gifts. Once is forgiveable. But if that same politician starts to develop a pattern of repeatedly 'forgetting' to declare gifts... then you have a potentially serious problem, and it's time to hope that that particular politician has no control over any utilities.

Some of them did; others are challenging the rule / saying they should be able to keep their position because they don't use their NZ citizenship / is NZ a real country anyway?

The ones asking whether or not New Zealand is a real country should go - not because of the dual citizenship, but because people who try to change rules around to their own benefit after the fact are not what you want in a politician.

So... I'd find that really weird, to go to a place like that for breakfast and have someone wait on me - someone bringing you food yes, but not the full "table service" experience. I'd imagine if Mugg & Bean franchised to Australia they'd ditch the waitstaff (no doubt it'd save a lot of money as our minimum wage is $20 AUD / hr (185 rand / hr) - though for high schoolers it can go as low as half that).

Your minimum wage is way higher than ours. Though I imagine your cost of living is higher, too.

I don't even know what I was going for; it was a plot bunny... it was like... if Red got used to the way a vampire is when it's asleep, then a sleeping human would be super weird.

Yeah, and he's clearly expressing that weirdness as disgust.

Because... I like the idea of a vampire becoming a corpse during the day: so they effectively "die" at sunrise, and their body slowly grows cold and stiff with rigor mortis, and the blood pools on their back, staining their skin... And then when they wake up at sunset, their body animates again, if they choose to they run their heating cells, pump their blood, etc. I'm sure there's vampires who are beyond caring and just walk around with a livor mortis pattern on their back and their skin pale, unbreathing - or maybe it was in fashion a while, to show you had no need to integrate with humans? Anyway...

This could be an issue if you ever do that space vampire spinoff. Because the sun never sets in space, so do they stay 'dead' permanently, or do they simply have to stay 'dead' about as often as a human stays asleep? Can a vampire stay active and in motion practically year-round by spending six months at each pole and alternating - alternatively, can a vampire be easily imprisoned by being forced to spend the six months of daylight at each pole?

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (27 days later)

I found the tumblr I got the information from - SSC as luck would have it: https://slatestarscratchpad.tumblr.com/post/171006591796/my-favorite-section-of-the-new-south-african

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_Ramaphosa#Farmer

So it's the new guy!!!! I hope you're prepared for mandatory ugandan cattle appreciation classes, or something.

That's not to say that all judges are unbribeable, but in general they know that they're pretty much set for life as long as they don't break the rules and accepting bribes goes against the rules.

Ahhh... so if you accept a bribe your job is gone; whereas the utility company president was chosen because they would accept bribes and with the implication that bribe accepting would be a big part of the job. Fascinating.

Corruption - at first - looks a lot like someone just forgetting to declare gifts. Once is forgiveable. But if that same politician starts to develop a pattern of repeatedly 'forgetting' to declare gifts... then you have a potentially serious problem, and it's time to hope that that particular politician has no control over any utilities.

Okay - good point - it is a slippery slope. And I'm at a completely different end of it: I had a contractor who I employ to do work for me give me a desk calendar - probably cost less than $2 to print, and they'd send it along with a "happy new year" message. Procedure required me to record that gift on a form and post the calendar back, since we don't accept gifts regardless of value. I followed the procedure but many people would just throw that calendar out. Still, would rather an overbearing gifts procedure than electricity supply problems...

The ones asking whether or not New Zealand is a real country should go - not because of the dual citizenship, but because people who try to change rules around to their own benefit after the fact are not what you want in a politician.

the is NZ a real country was a joke / someone considered that under a certain reading of the NZ constitution, all Australians have enough privileges of NZ citizenship for us all to count enough as citizens to not be able to run for office:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/robert-angyal/section-44-of-the-constitution-means-nobody-is-eligible-to-be-el_a_23078667/?utm_hp_ref=au-homepage

Your minimum wage is way higher than ours. Though I imagine your cost of living is higher, too.

Looking at the Mugg & Bean menu, your coffee is about the same price (maybe a little cheaper) but your food is.... like, half or a third the price accounting the exchange rate. I think last time I compared prices with South Africa I had an immediate urge to go there on holiday and just eat non-stop

Because the sun never sets in space, so do they stay 'dead' permanently, or do they simply have to stay 'dead' about as often as a human stays asleep?

Hmmmmm shit. I was about to say that it depends whether the sun is "in the sky" or whether it's "set", celestially speaking - and that would work if you were on a planet. But yeah, if you're on a spaceship you're probably out of luck. OR NOT...

let's say the sun thing is.... the neutrinos... and the difference in solar neutrinos hitting you before and after sunset is what causes you to sleep (mass of the earth and all that). So... basically you just need to be a little further from the sun.... and you're good forever. Maybe not.

You know what: I don't want to grapple with this shit (okay... I kind of do - but not right now... maybe my next post in the chain)...

Can a vampire stay active and in motion practically year-round by spending six months at each pole and alternating - alternatively, can a vampire be easily imprisoned by being forced to spend the six months of daylight at each pole?

I'd say yes, absolutely. A little-known way of killing a vampire is to put her body on an airplane and keep the airplane on the light side of the earth (with judicious use of in-air refuelling, perhaps). The body will rot away and just end up as a brain, heart, and a series of blood vessels kept from rotting by the nanites. Well, actually, this doesn't kill her; once you let her experience nighttime again, she'll start growing back. I'd say it's a great thing to do to torture them except they won't have awareness.... soooo. Might scare them when they wake up - and if you can trick a vampire into going into an airplane it's a good way to incapacitate them so you can deal with them - but long term probably not a solution.

u/CCC_037 [+1] (28 days later)

So it's the new guy!!!! I hope you're prepared for mandatory ugandan cattle appreciation classes, or something.

Huh.

...taking a closer look at the story, it looks like he didn't precisely break the rules, but rather found a loophole (the rules prevented him from importing cattle from Uganda due to disease concerns, so he imported cattle embryos from Kenya instead and simply had them quarantined a while). Which isn't great... but it is a good deal less worrying than it could have been.

Ahhh... so if you accept a bribe your job is gone; whereas the utility company president was chosen because they would accept bribes and with the implication that bribe accepting would be a big part of the job. Fascinating.

That's it in a nutshell, yes. Isn't politics fascinating?

And now, as we speak, the judges are all still doing pretty well and judging away in court cases, plus if they convict someone of taking a bribe they can fine the recipient the amount of the bribe. Spent it on luxury cars already? Too bad! Pay it back! (I think they might be able to add punitive damages on top of that, if they're really feeling vindictive).

They can and moreover have recently done so.

Okay - good point - it is a slippery slope. And I'm at a completely different end of it: I had a contractor who I employ to do work for me give me a desk calendar - probably cost less than $2 to print, and they'd send it along with a "happy new year" message. Procedure required me to record that gift on a form and post the calendar back, since we don't accept gifts regardless of value. I followed the procedure but many people would just throw that calendar out. Still, would rather an overbearing gifts procedure than electricity supply problems...

Yay for following procedure!

the is NZ a real country was a joke / someone considered that under a certain reading of the NZ constitution, all Australians have enough privileges of NZ citizenship for us all to count enough as citizens to not be able to run for office:

Oooooooh. Alright. That was a lawyer making a joke, not a politician seriously trying to avoid the rules.

That's different, then. No-one's trying to dodge the consequences of their own actions.

Looking at the Mugg & Bean menu, your coffee is about the same price (maybe a little cheaper)

Bear in mind, the price on that bottomless coffee isn't just for one cup. That includes all the refills you can drink. And Mugg & Bean isn't a cheap restaurant.

But yeah, exchange rates are (in general) great for tourists visiting here, but horrible for tourists from here visiting other places.

let's say the sun thing is.... the neutrinos... and the difference in solar neutrinos hitting you before and after sunset is what causes you to sleep (mass of the earth and all that). So... basically you just need to be a little further from the sun.... and you're good forever. Maybe not.

Or figure out some sort of neutrino shield.

A little-known way of killing a vampire is to put her body on an airplane and keep the airplane on the light side of the earth (with judicious use of in-air refuelling, perhaps)

You don't have to use in-air refuelling if your plane is fast enough. You just land at ten in the morning and make sure you're fuelled up before two in the afternoon.

...it would still be massively expensive, mind you. Far cheaper to just dump out the body on a nice, sunny afternoon. Unless you plan on needing that particular vampire later for some reason, of course.

But there's also the other option to consider - the vampire who spends all his time at the poles (or in aeroplanes racing the midnight) in order to stay awake forever.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (28 days later)

...taking a closer look at the story, it looks like he didn't precisely break the rules, but rather found a loophole (the rules prevented him from importing cattle from Uganda due to disease concerns, so he imported cattle embryos from Kenya instead and simply had them quarantined a while). Which isn't great... but it is a good deal less worrying than it could have been.

Loopholes mean he's politically savvy and has a don't-say-no attitude, eh??? :D

That's it in a nutshell, yes. Isn't politics fascinating?

Extremely!

That was a lawyer making a joke, not a politician seriously trying to avoid the rules.

Yeah, I'd weep for any politician who actually questioned where NZ was a real country.

Bear in mind, the price on that bottomless coffee isn't just for one cup.

I was looking at the prices for their fancy lattes, FWIW (turmeric latte and all that) as I figured that's more in line with what I drink. But yeah, cheap regardless.

But yeah, exchange rates are (in general) great for tourists visiting here, but horrible for tourists from here visiting other places.

Australians tend to benefit from visiting Asia but suffer visiting the US/EU; add South Africa to the "Asia" category (but... significantly less so: you can get a basic lunch at a food court in Thailand for something like 50 rand...)

BRB checking flight prices to Joburg... $1,400 return with SA Airlines, but at least it's a direct 10/11hr flight rather than the 30 hour flight via Sydney that QANTAS offers for $100 cheaper.

... SE Asia's $200-$500 return and the food's cheaper. I'm considering doing French a immersion course in Senegal in a few years but JNB to DSS looks like $1000 so it'd probably be cheaper to fly via Brussels if I decide to do it at all. NVM (actually kayak recommends a circuitous route via the UAE, Kenya, and Uganda at the moment... I guess not many people want to fly to Senegal).

Or figure out some sort of neutrino shield.

Yeah but neutrinos are "hundreds of metres of water" level stuff - mostly they go through the earth anyway. Which makes me think neutrinos are bad handwavium because, you know, it would be kind of like saying that 1000000 neutrinos per second is fine but if it's 1000003 OH NO THE VAMPIRE GOES TO SLEEP :(

But the only way to handle it that I can see - where you're tied to sunset/sunrise - is the mass of the earth to do the heavy lifting, and it has to be something that's blocked by the earth but not by a suitably thick wall...

...it would still be massively expensive, mind you. Far cheaper to just dump out the body on a nice, sunny afternoon. Unless you plan on needing that particular vampire later for some reason, of course.

And if you do, just stake the damn thing. In air refuelling is stupid.

But there's also the other option to consider - the vampire who spends all his time at the poles (or in aeroplanes racing the midnight) in order to stay awake forever.

I could see this being quite feasible for a vampire who was rich enough (since it would be fabulously expensive, even by vampire standards). Definitely something a vampire could do in an emergency - like if you need to spend a few months making sure nobody kills you.

It probably would have an effect on the brain eventually....

u/CCC_037 [+2] (28 days later)

Loopholes mean he's politically savvy and has a don't-say-no attitude, eh??? :D

More like at least it means he is obeying the letter of the rules, even when doing so is inconvenient. Unlike Zuma, who would flagrantly break them and then insist that he had done nothing wrong.

I was looking at the prices for their fancy lattes, FWIW (turmeric latte and all that) as I figured that's more in line with what I drink. But yeah, cheap regardless.

Ahhhhh. Okay.

... SE Asia's $200-$500 return and the food's cheaper.

Ah. I think they've got us beaten, then. As long as you don't mind crowds.

Which makes me think neutrinos are bad handwavium because, you know, it would be kind of like saying that 1000000 neutrinos per second is fine but if it's 1000003 OH NO THE VAMPIRE GOES TO SLEEP :(

It has other consequences as well. Do vampires all collapse when the neutrino front from a distant supernova hits Earth? And, if you really need one to, can a vampire stay up past sunrise (albeit uncomfortably) and if so, for how long?

And then there's of course that one who insists on migrating between the poles so he never has to 'sleep'... but there's still a formerly-human mind running on that vampire hardware. Even if there are no physical side-effects to staying up for that long, surely there will be psychological ones...

And if you do, just stake the damn thing. In air refuelling is stupid.

Yeah, much easier and more straightforward. The Noon Plane is incredibly wasteful and ostentatious.

...there's some vampire somewhere who maintains the Noon Plane to stick her rivals in just to show off that she can afford that level of ostentation, isn't there?

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (28 days later)

More like at least it means he is obeying the letter of the rules, even when doing so is inconvenient.

/r/maliciouscompliance at its finest, except with more rare cows!

As long as you don't mind crowds.

Is South Africa not crowded? When I've been to Thailand it's been during "low season" so the hotels I've been to tend to be under capacity depending on the location.

Also... I imagine South Africa as having a high crime rate, which is probably unfair. But the Oscar Pistorious coverage and him living in a "gated community" with security guards to keep the "undesireables" out seems excessive to my sensibilities.

Let's look at homicides...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

South Africa: 34.27 per 100,000

Thailand: 3.51 per 100,000

Australia: 0.98 per 100,000

You know what I will not go to South Africa. Eighth highest murder rate in the world. Maybe that's why there's no crowds: everyone's too murdered!!!!!!!!

Do vampires all collapse when the neutrino front from a distant supernova hits Earth?

Well no because it's particular to Sol, but if there's a solar storm at night then the same question holds.

And, if you really need one to, can a vampire stay up past sunrise (albeit uncomfortably) and if so, for how long?

I haven't ruled on this either way: I want to say no, but if I change my mind, I wouldn't want it to be more than an hour absolute max. That said, the sun weakness evolves over time: a young vampire can walk out at high noon and is fine. Once they're a few years old they stop being able to go out in the sun though.

And then there's of course that one who insists on migrating between the poles so he never has to 'sleep'... but there's still a formerly-human mind running on that vampire hardware. Even if there are no physical side-effects to staying up for that long, surely there will be psychological ones..

Absolutely... Would not recommend it...

...there's some vampire somewhere who maintains the Noon Plane to stick her rivals in just to show off that she can afford that level of ostentation, isn't there?

Oh, undoubtedly so. She'd probably have someone who insulted her at one point on it too just to drive the point home.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (29 days later)

/r/maliciouscompliance at its finest, except with more rare cows!

Yep! Which means it was at least compliance.

Is South Africa not crowded? When I've been to Thailand it's been during "low season" so the hotels I've been to tend to be under capacity depending on the location.

Define 'crowded'.

I mean, sure, if you happen to be on the popular beaches during the tourist season, or at large sporting events, then yeah, it'll be a little crowded. But not by the standards of someplace like India or Japan.

But let me put it this way; our biggest urban centres are Pretoria and Johannesburg. Here's a picture of Johannesburg I found on Google (Admittedly, that's not the city centre, but nonetheless).

Also... I imagine South Africa as having a high crime rate, which is probably unfair.

No, no, that's actually pretty fair. It's a great place, but there are unfortunately plenty of criminals both in and out of politics. And there are certainly neighbourhoods where you don't want to walking through dark alleys carrying a big pile of cash.

But the Oscar Pistorious coverage and him living in a "gated community" with security guards to keep the "undesireables" out seems excessive to my sensibilities.

Honestly, it seems excessive to me as well. These gated communities are...

Well. Before 1994, we had this system called 'apartheid'. You may have heard of it, it was a pretty bad idea, it basically consisted of forcing different people to live in different areas based on the shade of their skin.

That officially ended in 1994. But a policy like that, held for such long time, leaves... scars on a society. In this case, a lot of the scars come down to the idea that the black people (now diplomatically referred to as 'previously disadvantaged') had got the short end of the stick for a long, long time. And the short end of the stick was very short - no education beyond what was needed to be an unskilled labourer, no economic power at all, poor nutrition. And so on. One could describe the short end of the stick as pretty near to no stick at all - except that sometimes, the entire stick would come crashing down and smash some poor fellow whose only crime was standing in the wrong place at the wrong time, and to make it worse, when that happened it was often being swung by a man in a police uniform.

So, you end that policy. That's good, but something like two-thirds of the country has no education and no money with which to get an education. What do people do?

Some people, perhaps fearful of the 'unwashed masses' (who now have access to such luxuries as soap) turtle up in gated communities, surrounding themselves with echo chambers of like-minded people. This is made worse because a small percentage of said unwashed masses decide that now they're not being crushed by The Man, it's time to claim some of The Man's stuff - where 'The Man' is defined as the nearest guy who has stuff worth grabbing. And the stories of this get back to the people in gated communities, who shake their heads, tut-tut, and congratulate themselves on their foresight in keeping said unwashed masses out.

Further, you have entire communities who live in fear of police uniforms, and instinctively don't want to speak up when they see something shifty - because, in the Bad Old Days, people from these communities who made themselves known to the police were in for a Bad Time.

Now, in all fairness, great and giant strides have been made towards fixing the problems described here. (The fact that the country is still standing stands in witness to that). It's getting more and more difficult to guess the economic class of a stranger from the hue of his skin, and continually more and more people are receiving basic services (like water and electricity) or properly built houses (as opposed to shacks made of mostly corrugated iron).

And, while Zuma was a setback in the whole process, continuing it as fast as reasonably possible is still the best way to get votes from the biggest demographic in the country, so the chances are that things are going to keep on getting better.

Now, it might be possible to point out that this was supposed to have ended twenty-four years ago, so why are there still scars? And that's a common question, but it means that the questioner has not yet considered the sheer scale of the original problem...

Let's look at homicides...

Oooooh, yeah. We do not do good on that scale.

Well no because it's particular to Sol, but if there's a solar storm at night then the same question holds.

Hmmm. Could it be psychological? Some type of particularly persistent placebo effect?

I haven't ruled on this either way: I want to say no, but if I change my mind, I wouldn't want it to be more than an hour absolute max. That said, the sun weakness evolves over time: a young vampire can walk out at high noon and is fine. Once they're a few years old they stop being able to go out in the sun though.

Hmmmm. So, if you really need a vampire out at high noon, you make a new one and then send him out? (Maybe kill him once the job's done, so he doesn't take up precious territory).

Oh, undoubtedly so. She'd probably have someone who insulted her at one point on it too just to drive the point home.

She probably carries recent photographs around with her too, just in case the topic comes up in conversation.

...actually, could this be a beauty/rejuvenation treatment for vampires? "Let your skin and muscles fade away naturally and then regrow good as new, with no pain or long-term side effects" kind of thing?

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (29 days later)

Thanks for the breakdown of the impacts of apartheid: I really can't think of anything to add, but it was an illuminating read.

Now, it might be possible to point out that this was supposed to have ended twenty-four years ago, so why are there still scars? And that's a common question, but it means that the questioner has not yet considered the sheer scale of the original problem...

In my personal experience, we did some awful stuff to the Aboriginal people as a society, and although that "stopped" some time ago (or admittedly continues to this day in its own way, but the stuff that continues to this day is not on the same scale as "literally taking children from their families and forcing them to speak English and convert to christianity"). But anyway, yeah... society still hasn't caught up, people are still racist, there's still a horrendous life expectancy gap, imprisonment of Aboriginal youth, etc. Similar sorts of problems with African-Americans even after Jim Crow laws are not allowed since ~1965. I can only imagine how much worse having something as formal and extreme as apartheid in the recent past would be.

Oooooh, yeah. We do not do good on [the homicides per 100,000] scale.

Not even a little. :|

Are there gangs or something that account for the high rate? I assume with a rate that high there's got to be pockets with extremely high murder levels...

Hmmm. Could it be psychological? Some type of particularly persistent placebo effect?

I don't know.... the only other explanation I can think of at the moment is that the nanites have an internal clock, and they sync it based on star/moonlight, and that modulates the sleep time. But.... there's literally no reason a vampire would be designed to work that way, unless their job was to keep a curfew active or something. And then it would be based on Atlantis rather than their home country. And also if you move a vampire but keep him in a box, the nanites will not know when to wake up. So.... throw that in the bin.

Hmmmm. So, if you really need a vampire out at high noon, you make a new one and then send him out? (Maybe kill him once the job's done, so he doesn't take up precious territory).

Yeah, though if you're one of the Old Ones a new vampire would be weaker than a 6-month-old thrall, so you might want to just create a thrall and wait six months.

A baby vampire doesn't use territory: it stays in its guardian's territory, unless it runs away or something. They don't need much blood and can even eat food.

(I figure the nanites take a long time to reach "critical mass" in the body...)

...actually, could this be a beauty/rejuvenation treatment for vampires? "Let your skin and muscles fade away naturally and then regrow good as new, with no pain or long-term side effects" kind of thing?

It'd require way too much trust when you can just cut the part of your face you don't like off and regrow it. Vampires don't age or grow hair unless they choose to, so it would have to be someone who chose to age and then when they wanted to look young again they were too chicken to flay themselves and didn't have any thralls they could trust to flay them in their sleep.

(oh god I'm imagining that now, a vampire who likes ageing and every century or so when she gets too old she has her thrall flay her skin off overday and then it slowly grows back - ugh!)

u/CCC_037 [+2] (30 days later)

In my personal experience, we did some awful stuff to the Aboriginal people as a society, and although that "stopped" some time ago (or admittedly continues to this day in its own way, but the stuff that continues to this day is not on the same scale as "literally taking children from their families and forcing them to speak English and convert to christianity"). But anyway, yeah... society still hasn't caught up, people are still racist, there's still a horrendous life expectancy gap, imprisonment of Aboriginal youth, etc. Similar sorts of problems with African-Americans even after Jim Crow laws are not allowed since ~1965. I can only imagine how much worse having something as formal and extreme as apartheid in the recent past would be.

The formality and the extremism aren't what made Apartheid so difficult to recover from. You've made references to some of the horrible things done to Australian Aboriginals and African slaves in America; and I don't think there's really much of a difference in terms of how horrible those particular things were for the victims (they were all horrible).

I think the worst thing about the scars on our society has to do with the numbers involved. Aboriginals (from a quick Google) make up between three and four percent of the population of Australia. Our "previously disadvantaged" groups make up somewhere over 80% of the population, which makes it particularly difficult to get everyone up to snuff in terms of education and infrastructure...

Are there gangs or something that account for the high rate? I assume with a rate that high there's got to be pockets with extremely high murder levels...

There are gangs in some regions, yes. And there are some particularly violent armed criminals as well (there's one group that were on the news just recently for attacking a police station and shooting some of the officers - news reports said that four people had been arrested 'in connection with' the incident within a day, though whether that's all of that group or not I'm not sure)

I don't know.... the only other explanation I can think of at the moment is that the nanites have an internal clock, and they sync it based on star/moonlight, and that modulates the sleep time. But.... there's literally no reason a vampire would be designed to work that way, unless their job was to keep a curfew active or something. And then it would be based on Atlantis rather than their home country. And also if you move a vampire but keep him in a box, the nanites will not know when to wake up. So.... throw that in the bin.

Hmmmm. There must have been some way to install updates.

How abut this - the original vampire was a creature of deadly speed and endurance, which never slept and could take down entire armies.

Then someone else managed to weaken them by making them vulnerable to the Sun. Now the vampires are still creatures of power and hunger - but perhaps not all of them started out as human. (Perhaps there were vampire cows, or bears, or gorilla, or something). Perhaps these were still only of beastial intelligence, and had a bad habit of wandering out at night and getting themselves killed.

So the original creator of the vampires (or someone else with an interest in keeping them going) added the shutdown during daylight - so that they would, near morning, start feeling tired and vulnerable, find a safe place to hide, and then stay there until the next evening, when they spring out and annihilate armies again.

A baby vampire doesn't use territory: it stays in its guardian's territory, unless it runs away or something. They don't need much blood and can even eat food.

Well, yeah, but once he's done what the vampire needed him to do during daylight hours, do you really think said vampire would have a reason to keep him around? If he ever needs anything else done during the day, after all, he just needs another useful idiot and six months' advance notice...

It'd require way too much trust when you can just cut the part of your face you don't like off and regrow it.

Hmmmm. So, either this is done exclusively by the owner of the Noon Plane herself (so she doesn't need to trust anyone besides her own underlings), or it's one of these ridiculously expensive and dangerous things that particularly wealthy (but not particularly intelligent) vampires do to show off their wealth.

(oh god I'm imagining that now, a vampire who likes ageing and every century or so when she gets too old she has her thrall flay her skin off overday and then it slowly grows back - ugh!)

...yeah. That is pretty disgusting. But I can certainly imagine a vampire doing it...

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (30 days later)

I think the worst thing about the scars on our society has to do with the numbers involved. Aboriginals (from a quick Google) make up between three and four percent of the population of Australia. Our "previously disadvantaged" groups make up somewhere over 80% of the population, which makes it particularly difficult to get everyone up to snuff in terms of education and infrastructure...

Yeah, good point. Never really thought of it that way; but it does make the fact that Australia hasn't recovered more even more horrible, since Aboriginals can just use the existing excellent infrastructure we have (which doesn't happen in practise as a lot of Aboriginals live in remote communities without fresh fruit and vegetables, good quality schools, healthcare, etc.... there's a saying that parts of Australia are like a third world country because of this).

There are gangs in some regions, yes. And there are some particularly violent armed criminals as well

So like - does the average tourist / citizen have to worry about these sorts of things? If I went to say Johannesburg (or popular-tourist-city-here), would I need to look over my shoulder constantly? Or does the "tourism machine" mean that the tourist-frequented areas are perfectly safe but if you explore further afield you could end up in a very rough part of town?

I don't know.... the only other explanation I can think of at the moment is that the nanites have an internal clock, and they sync it based on star/moonlight, and that modulates the sleep time. But.... there's literally no reason a vampire would be designed to work that way, unless their job was to keep a curfew active or something. And then it would be based on Atlantis rather than their home country. And also if you move a vampire but keep him in a box, the nanites will not know when to wake up. So.... throw that in the bin.

Hmmmm. There must have been some way to install updates.

How abut this - the original vampire was a creature of deadly speed and endurance, which never slept and could take down entire armies.

Then someone else managed to weaken them by making them vulnerable to the Sun. Now the vampires are still creatures of power and hunger - but perhaps not all of them started out as human. (Perhaps there were vampire cows, or bears, or gorilla, or something). Perhaps these were still only of beastial intelligence, and had a bad habit of wandering out at night and getting themselves killed.

Good thought but I don't think this works: the sketch is:

• Vampires are created in labs as weapons with no vulnerabilities

• Vampires work out how to propagate themselves without lab conditions and end up overrunning the planet of Atlantis

• Atlanteans open a portal to Earth, and a rag-tag group of refugees go over.

• Vampires sneak through the portal too

• After the atlanteans realise there's a small number of vampires, mage enchants the sun (and by extension, gold and wood) to be dangerous to them

• This works a little bit but the vampire population remains self-sustaining

• Atlanteans decide to go to a new parallel world (Demontopia) and manage to do so without any vampires at all/any evil vampires following them^*

• Vampires are now on Earth, over time they forget their Atlantean origins

* This is probably where they get comatose during daylight. The mage would have cast some sort of spell to make sure they would not interfere. I'm not sure why the mage would cast a blanket "deactivate when the sun is around" spell rather than a "deactivate for the next few hours" spell, unless they wanted to use the daylight hours to fortify their base while the spell was cast - maybe over a period of months or years. This still runs the question of how it works mechanically, though; I imagine the "deactivate" part is grafted onto an "off-switch" the nanites had, that just deactivated the vampire rather than killing them. The "sun" part is strange, especially because a mage who made vampires vulnerable to the sun would surely make it so that a vampire would be awake when the sun was up rather than when it was down and the vampire had freedom of movement....

Anyway I guess what I'm saying is in none of this does it make sense that vampire animals or stupid vampires would end up on Earth. The best I can think of is the algorithm of the nanites has "self-preservation" in there and the behaviour around the magically charged sun is so strong that the nanites cause the vampire to fall asleep?

Well, yeah, but once he's done what the vampire needed him to do during daylight hours, do you really think said vampire would have a reason to keep him around? If he ever needs anything else done during the day, after all, he just needs another useful idiot and six months' advance notice...

I'd imagine there'd pretty soon be rules kept by certain Kings and Queens that any baby vampires must not be killed, for they make it too easy to hide your secrets. Putting more pressure on thralls again!

u/CCC_037 [+2] (a month later)

Yeah, good point. Never really thought of it that way; but it does make the fact that Australia hasn't recovered more even more horrible, since Aboriginals can just use the existing excellent infrastructure we have (which doesn't happen in practise as a lot of Aboriginals live in remote communities without fresh fruit and vegetables, good quality schools, healthcare, etc.... there's a saying that parts of Australia are like a third world country because of this).

Yeah, infrastructure is incredibly important. Get the right infrastructure and schools in place, and then getting everyone on an equal footing within a generation or two would be substantially easier.

I have a guess about why Australia hasn't done that, but it's really terribly cynical.

So like - does the average tourist / citizen have to worry about these sorts of things?

I'm going to give you the worst possible answer. It depends.

As for citizens - people who actually live in the gang-riddled areas have plenty to worry about. And, since no-one would live in a gang-riddled area if they had any choice in the matter, the people who live there are generally people who are unable to move out for one reason or another - often that they can't afford a house anywhere else.

On the other hand, people who live in places like the area I live in, have such worries dramatically reduced.

And then there's also people who live in sort of inbetween areas, where you don't get much violence but you do get a lot of theft - the sort of place where you don't leave your car outside the garage because if you do it won't be there an hour later. That... can be livable, if you're careful. People can get used to it, and you get a few companies that sell tracking devices for cars (basically a mix of a GPS system and a radio that hides in the car so that if your car vanishes, you can call up the company and the company can get the police (or their own people) suddenly turning up wherever your car went to and hopefully ending up with the thieves arrested).

As for tourists - well, again, it depends. I have heard a few horror stories (mostly entirely unsubstantiated) but in general they take on two forms; either the tourist puts their luggage down somewhere public, walks away, and comes back half an hour later to never find said luggage again; or the tourist is lured well out of sight of anyone and everyone before any trouble happens. (Due to historical reasons, we have a very poorly regulated taxi industry and it's far too easy for some random person to pretend to be a taxi long enough to accept a "fare" and drive him off to some dark alley someplace).

So... yeah. In all fairness, such incidents are very, very much not the norm - but such a horrifying incident, even when rare, is still not something one wants to risk.

The "sun" part is strange, especially because a mage who made vampires vulnerable to the sun would surely make it so that a vampire would be awake when the sun was up rather than when it was down and the vampire had freedom of movement....

Well, of course not. The idea is rather that there would need to have been two or more mages, working at cross-purposes - the first mage enchants Sol, because he wants to stop and/or kill all the vampires. The second mage then adds the sleep-in-daytime enchantment, because he wants to (for whatever reason) save the vampires - perhaps the second mage was even a vampire himself.

The best I can think of is the algorithm of the nanites has "self-preservation" in there and the behaviour around the magically charged sun is so strong that the nanites cause the vampire to fall asleep?

That's also a possibility, but then wouldn't a sufficiently dark box allow the vampire to remain awake?

I'd imagine there'd pretty soon be rules kept by certain Kings and Queens that any baby vampires must not be killed, for they make it too easy to hide your secrets. Putting more pressure on thralls again!

They can't complain about baby vampires that they don't know about, right?

Besides, why would they care? They're not at risk...

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a month later)

Yeah, infrastructure is incredibly important. Get the right infrastructure and schools in place, and then getting everyone on an equal footing within a generation or two would be substantially easier.

We've got a "closing the gap" initiative. 7 targets, of which three are being met: https://closingthegap.pmc.gov.au/executive-summary - the last time that we met as many as three was 2011, so omg... And the one's we're achieving are the "easiest" ones: child mortality, kindergarten enrolment, and high school completion (though oddly enough not... school attendance or reading/numeracy).

I have a guess about why Australia hasn't done that, but it's really terribly cynical.

Oh come on hit me with it!!!

On the other hand, people who live in places like the area I live in, have such worries dramatically reduced.

Without going into too many details, how affluent is your area and how much of a concern is crime? We bought a house about 5 years ago and the "rougher" suburbs talked about houses having alarm systems and whatnot, so much so that it seems like it's a requirement for living there, whereas the area I'm in, alarm systems are not terribly common.

And if you're one of Pistorious's neighbours then that tells a different story than if your family environment is more like the median, if you get me. (Then again, a median in a place where 80% of the population is "formerly disadvantaged" is maybe not a useful thing to talk about?).

the sort of place where you don't leave your car outside the garage because if you do it won't be there an hour later.

Ah, I can't think of any places like that. Even the most dodgy areas I can think of, you wouldn't want to leave any coins in your car or they might be stolen, but the car itself is going to be expected to be fine.

companies that sell tracking devices for cars

Nope, never heard of such a thing here. So... obviously different demos!

So... yeah. In all fairness, such incidents are very, very much not the norm - but such a horrifying incident, even when rare, is still not something one wants to risk.

I'm a bit of a true crime buff so when you said "horrifying incident" I was expecting a lot worse than it seems like the poor woman got. And over AU$9,000??????????? How long could you live off that in South Africa? Here you'd live off that much money for... maybe six months, and it'd be a really meagre lifestyle.

The second mage then adds the sleep-in-daytime enchantment, because he wants to (for whatever reason) save the vampires - perhaps the second mage was even a vampire himself.

Aww, I'm imagining the second mage's daughter was turned into a vampire, and the daughter had... I don't know, Down's Syndrome or something and couldn't understand to stay out of the sun. That's.... kind of sweet.

Or just two mages that don't know what the other did: one puts the sleepy spell on, the other puts the sunshine spell on, and then they both realise they fucked up and should have cast the sleepytime spell differently.

That's also a possibility, but then wouldn't a sufficiently dark box allow the vampire to remain awake?

Depending on how dark sufficiently dark is, I am OK with this. Like, if they have to be inside a neutrino detector (1km underground, surrounded by 50,000 tons of water), then I'm OK with that. A sufficiently deep tunnel of the type we can only build in the last ~100 years? All good. I'd probably even be happy with 100m of cover though that runs into problems of being around mountains/etc, so maybe O1km is the best way to go about it. If it comes up, which it might not ever.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (a month later)

We've got a "closing the gap" initiative. 7 targets, of which three are being met: https://closingthegap.pmc.gov.au/executive-summary - the last time that we met as many as three was 2011, so omg... And the one's we're achieving are the "easiest" ones: child mortality, kindergarten enrolment, and high school completion (though oddly enough not... school attendance or reading/numeracy).

Hmph. Well, the initiative looks good, but it needs to meet more targets. And, from the executive summary, it... kind of looks like someone started out by just throwing money at the problem to see if that would solve it.

Fortunately, the same executive summary also suggests that the people running the program are learning and adapting their efforts in light of their experiences.

Without going into too many details, how affluent is your area

Hmmmmmm... upper-middle-class. Not a gated community. I think that's sufficiently vague.

and how much of a concern is crime?

I don't feel the need for an alarm system, and I can leave my car out in the driveway all day if I want with no negative consequences. So... minimal concern, really. I'm also something like five minutes' drive or maybe half an hours' walk from the nearest police station, for what that's worth.

And if you're one of Pistorious's neighbours then that tells a different story than if your family environment is more like the median, if you get me. (Then again, a median in a place where 80% of the population is "formerly disadvantaged" is maybe not a useful thing to talk about?).

I get you. The median is moving, slowly, over time, though.

Ah, I can't think of any places like that. Even the most dodgy areas I can think of, you wouldn't want to leave any coins in your car or they might be stolen, but the car itself is going to be expected to be fine.

I continually hear about trains being delayed because people have stolen the signal cabling in order to sell it for its copper content.

So... yeah. We have a problem (and the whole Zuma administration did not help - when the guy in charge of a country spends eight years dodging and delaying the hearings of corruption charges, I think some people may have taken that as inspiration).

I have a guess about why Australia hasn't done that, but it's really terribly cynical.

Oh come on hit me with it!!!

Alright. Your Aboriginal population is below 4% of everyone. Our "previously disadvantaged" is over 80%. When a political party decides which initiatives they're really going to concentrate on, are they going to pick the ones that keep a majority of the voting public happy, or a minority?

I'm going to guess that for (say) some... 75%? Let's say that for 75% of the not-directly-affected population, there's some local or other issue which is far more important in securing their vote than the rights of the previously disadvantaged communities. For Australian political parties, this means that if they ignore the Aboriginals and concentrate on these other issues, they get way more votes at the next election than a party that's really trying to improve the lot of said Aboriginals.

While here, on the other hand, if you're not improving the lot of previously disadvantaged communities, then maybe 80% of the population is ready to give their vote to someone who (at least look like they) will. In fact, we literally get people staging protests because it's not happening fast enough.

Nope, never heard of such a thing here. So... obviously different demos!

Here's the website of one of the bigger such companies, if you want to poke around a little.

I'm a bit of a true crime buff so when you said "horrifying incident" I was expecting a lot worse than it seems like the poor woman got. And over AU$9,000??????????? How long could you live off that in South Africa? Here you'd live off that much money for... maybe six months, and it'd be a really meagre lifestyle.

Hmmmm. That's... oooh, apparently that's about R80 000. I guess, if you're going for meagre... four years? Seven if you're going for really super meagre and not paying any rent. (That's for one person, of course, and assuming that you never need any medical care or education or anything).

I think that ending with death is about the worst of the stories I've heard. (Other unverified horror stories end up with the victim, having being lured away into a dark alley with all his stuff, being later found naked and maybe with a black eye).

Although we have a lot of criminals, by and large they're not going into crime because they have some deep-seated need to hurt people. Mostly, they're going into crime because they really need (or really want) money - for any of a variety of reasons (including both survival and drug money). And sometimes people will be threatened with guns and things will go wrong and people will be shot (and that's probably where a good bit of our high homicide rate comes from).

Aww, I'm imagining the second mage's daughter was turned into a vampire, and the daughter had... I don't know, Down's Syndrome or something and couldn't understand to stay out of the sun. That's.... kind of sweet.

Something like that, yes.

Or just two mages that don't know what the other did: one puts the sleepy spell on, the other puts the sunshine spell on, and then they both realise they fucked up and should have cast the sleepytime spell differently.

Huh. I hadn't thought of that... but yeah, that works, too.

A sufficiently deep tunnel of the type we can only build in the last ~100 years? All good.

Just because we couldn't build it before them doesn't mean it didn't exist. What's the world's deepest natural cave formation?

Maybe the eternally-awake vampire lives down in there, instead of moving back and forth between the poles all the time.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a month later)

I don't feel the need for an alarm system, and I can leave my car out in the driveway all day if I want with no negative consequences. So... minimal concern, really.

Okay, so it seems like the average sufficiently affluent person doesn't constantly live in fear / think a certain level of fear is normal, so that's... good at least. I am less paranoid now.

I continually hear about trains being delayed because people have stolen the signal cabling in order to sell it for its copper content.

Alright. Your Aboriginal population is below 4% of everyone. Our "previously disadvantaged" is over 80%. When a political party decides which initiatives they're really going to concentrate on, are they going to pick the ones that keep a majority of the voting public happy, or a minority?

New Zealand apparently has a specific seat in their parliament for the Maori community: it would probably be good if we got something along those lines (we do have a few Aboriginal parliamentarians, but they are not there for specific Aboriginal issues: they're Aboriginals who got elected into "general" positions)

Here's the website of one of the bigger such companies, if you want to poke around a little.

Okay I'm going to the "choose a tracker" wizard... and... some insurers require them? Eek.

From the FAQ:

Where can I find a vehicle tracking device on my car? ​Our tracking units can be fitted to a number of different places on your vehicle and we will never alert you to the location. Only the fitment agent will know where it is located. This is for your safety and security.

... so, reading between the lines, it's saying "if you get kidnapped and the kidnapper wants to remove the tracker, we're making sure you don't know about it so you'll be tracked during the kidnapping" ?

Another one asking if you'll be in trouble if your vehicle is stolen more than once (apparently enough of a pressing issue they they put it in their FAQ)

Hmmmm. That's... oooh, apparently that's about R80 000. I guess, if you're going for meagre... four years? Seven if you're going for really super meagre and not paying any rent. (That's for one person, of course, and assuming that you never need any medical care or education or anything).

Okay... killing someone for several years worth of living costs I can..... sort of see, a little bit, even though it's disgusting it's not "killing someone to steal their cigarettes" level of excessive.

Does South Africa not have free healthcare? For some reason I assumed it did (I think I just assumed everywhere but the USA has it).

Although we have a lot of criminals, by and large they're not going into crime because they have some deep-seated need to hurt people.

Yeah, I suppose the "killers of Junko Furuta" sort of people remain a constant proportion of the population, and more of the "people who would kill for economic reasons if needed" get.... 'activated'.

Aww, I'm imagining the second mage's daughter was turned into a vampire, and the daughter had... I don't know, Down's Syndrome or something and couldn't understand to stay out of the sun. That's.... kind of sweet.

Something like that, yes.

That's so wholesome I might headcanon it even though I think the below idea is probably more realistic.

Or just two mages that don't know what the other did: one puts the sleepy spell on, the other puts the sunshine spell on, and then they both realise they fucked up and should have cast the sleepytime spell differently.

Huh. I hadn't thought of that... but yeah, that works, too.

A sufficiently deep tunnel of the type we can only build in the last ~100 years? All good.

Just because we couldn't build it before them doesn't mean it didn't exist. What's the world's deepest natural cave formation?

About 2km.

Maybe the eternally-awake vampire lives down in there, instead of moving back and forth between the poles all the time.

Don't see why not. If I think of a reason for it to happen, it might come up.

Aside: on vampire sun paranoia: I can't believe it took more than a year to think of it, but I finally gave my vampire's dedicated safe house solid walls with no windows (and shutters on the outside of the house to appear like there were windows). Why would a vampire want windows when they're full of risks? Also chucked in some "airlock" style doors.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (a month later)

Okay, so it seems like the average sufficiently affluent person doesn't constantly live in fear / think a certain level of fear is normal, so that's... good at least. I am less paranoid now.

An average sufficiently affluent person who pays attention to crime statistics before selecting a residence, yes. (Crime statistics are available, and if you ever do come for a visit, it's probably a good idea to check them first).

It's actually a serious problem. Reputable scrap-metal dealers will no longer buy cabling in any form, as a result.

Unfortunately, there are still disreputable scrap metal dealers, so the issues continue. (Every now and then, one hears of people being arrested on one or other side of that transaction - either cable thieves or the scrap-metal dealers that buy the cable from them).

New Zealand apparently has a specific seat in their parliament for the Maori community: it would probably be good if we got something along those lines

That would be an excellent first step, yes. And an even better second step would be if the other parliamentarians didn't just ignore that representative.

If Australia implements those two steps, then you should start seeing that gap closing a lot more quickly in time.

some insurers require them? Eek.

Makes sense. If one customer's car gets stolen (and the bigger your insurance, the higher the odds that one of their customers' cars will get caught), then the thieves are caught and jailed, it makes the rest of their customers' cars safer and allows them to charge lower premiums.

... so, reading between the lines, it's saying "if you get kidnapped and the kidnapper wants to remove the tracker, we're making sure you don't know about it so you'll be tracked during the kidnapping" ?

Also, "we're making sure everyone knows that you won't know where it is so that people can't try to threaten you to make you tell".

Does South Africa not have free healthcare? For some reason I assumed it did (I think I just assumed everywhere but the USA has it).

Not free, no, but at the same time not "ten years' debt for one hospital visit" like I've heard of from the USA. There is a public healthcare system (somewhat underfunded and under-resourced, and you will find yourself in a long queue) and a private healthcare system (more expensive, but nowhere near USA levels, and the queues are shorter and equipment better).

Yeah, I suppose the "killers of Junko Furuta" sort of people remain a constant proportion of the population, and more of the "people who would kill for economic reasons if needed" get.... 'activated'.

I get the impression that most of it isn't even 'people who would kill for economic reasons'. Rather, I get the impression that a lot of it is 'people who would threaten other people with a loaded gun for economic reasons' and sometimes the guy with the gun panics or it goes off accidentally - either way, the thief is still guilty of murder, of course.

That's so wholesome I might headcanon it even though I think the below idea is probably more realistic.

Aside: on vampire sun paranoia: I can't believe it took more than a year to think of it, but I finally gave my vampire's dedicated safe house solid walls with no windows (and shutters on the outside of the house to appear like there were windows). Why would a vampire want windows when they're full of risks? Also chucked in some "airlock" style doors.

As an aside to the aside, I recently heard of an incident in England in - I can't recall, the 16th century or something? There was a King who needed to raise more money, so he put a tax on windows. And a lot of people who didn't want to pay the tax got their own windows bricked up. (It seems that that's where the phrase 'Daylight Robbery' comes from).

As a result, there are apparently a number of houses in England to this day which have their windows bricked up, for reasons that don't make the neighbours suspect vampires. I have no doubt you can make good use of this piece of trivia.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a month later)

An average sufficiently affluent person who pays attention to crime statistics before selecting a residence, yes. (Crime statistics are available, and if you ever do come for a visit, it's probably a good idea to check them first).

If I ever travel to South Africa I'd probably stick to the "safe tourist" areas - I don't have much desire to go visit Equestria, for example ;)

Also, "we're making sure everyone knows that you won't know where it is so that people can't try to threaten you to make you tell".

A nice precommitment contract :)

Not free, no, but at the same time not "ten years' debt for one hospital visit" like I've heard of from the USA. There is a public healthcare system (somewhat underfunded and under-resourced, and you will find yourself in a long queue) and a private healthcare system (more expensive, but nowhere near USA levels, and the queues are shorter and equipment better).

Yeah, we have a public/private thing going: public has a long queue for some procedures, but the equipment is more or less the same.

About three years ago I had to be admitted to hospital for emergency surgery due to a pelvic bleed (burst ovarian cyst is most likely explanation - basically if you have ovaries there's a decent chance you'll all of a sudden have horrible excruciating pain and need surgery to drain the blood or else put up with the pain for several months while the blood clears! fun). Anyway, I was in hospital for two (maybe three?) nights, had keyhole surgery about ~8 hours after I arrived in the emergency room, and they sent me home with two boxes of pills (paracetamol/acetaminophen and ibuprofen: only $4 a box over the counter but hey), three meals (and milo!) a day, didn't cost me a cent. Went back a week later and had an iron infusion (WORST THING EVER. Would not recommend if you can avoid it), that took a few hours and a bag of... iron(?)... anyway, all of that, didn't cost anything. I do have private insurance but the only benefit that gave me was first dibs on a private room (which I would have got anyway, the hospital I was in only had private rooms since it was a gynecology specialist hospital and was mostly people having babies) and I think some vouchers for parking/lunch for visitors?

And last year I managed to screw up and cut my foot badly by stepping through a table, needed stitches and a tetanus shot, went to the emergency room and they did it for free (the whole rigmarole took 5 hours though :/). I also managed to screw up and injure my finger really badly (accidentally tried to catch a knife...), but I went to a doctor's office for that and had to pay $40 of the $80 consultation fee after the government rebate. Because I didn't want to wait 2-3 hours in the emergency room as I had work that day.

Would this sort of "show up at the emergency room, pay nothing, get treated in a relatively timely manner" be what you'd expect? Or is it less organised than that?

As a result, there are apparently a number of houses in England to this day which have their windows bricked up, for reasons that don't make the neighbours suspect vampires. I have no doubt you can make good use of this piece of trivia.

Hmmm that does sound interesting. Good place for low status vampires to live - most high status ones would have ostentatious displays of wealth that might make neighbours ask why they haven't paid to have windows added back.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (a month later)

I don't have much desire to go visit Equestria, for example ;)

You'd probably be disappointed if you did. It's a fairly typical suburban area.

A nice precommitment contract :)

There's a few precommitment contracts around. I've seen a sign in a shop that stated that the shop uses a 'drop safe', the keys to which are not stored on the premises.

basically if you have ovaries there's a decent chance you'll all of a sudden have horrible excruciating pain and need surgery to drain the blood or else put up with the pain for several months while the blood clears! fun

Ouch.

Went back a week later and had an iron infusion

Fun fact: raisins are surprisingly high in iron. Eat lots of raisins, and you'll be less likely to need iron infusions.

Last time I visited a hospital emergency room was for a minor infection - I went to the emergency room, had to wait an hour or so (because I was clearly not a priority patient) and then got seen, given a prescription and sent on my way. I only got the bill for the consultation (R100) the next day or so. (I had to get the pills from a pharmacist on my own time - that was fully covered by my medical aid, though).

So, there is a payment, but it's unlikely to break the bank.

Hmmm that does sound interesting. Good place for low status vampires to live - most high status ones would have ostentatious displays of wealth that might make neighbours ask why they haven't paid to have windows added back.

What, and modify a piece of history? Why, it's probably a heritage site or something - and changing it would be like replacing an antique oil lamp with an LED bulb!

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a month later)

Fun fact: raisins are surprisingly high in iron. Eat lots of raisins, and you'll be less likely to need iron infusions.

The iron infusion was purely a result of losing 1L of blood, and contained one gram of iron. 1kg of raisins has 21mg of iron... So you'd have to eat 50kg of raisins... which is about 2.5 months worth of calories if you ate nothing but raisins. I think the hospital said it was on the order of 150 steaks.

Even on normal raisin consumption, a 1/4 cup serving (which is about twice what I'd eat probably) has only 1mg of iron which isn't much - 98% of menstruaters are covered by an 18mg iron intake (50% are covered by only 9mg), and my typical intake is about 10-12mg (and that is a typical intake for females my age regardless of diet).

So yeah... raisins don't do the job, unfortunately.

100R for a doctor consultation is super cheap to me! Probably a cost of living thing. And most people have to pay about 300R for a standard box of prescription medication (... basically any subsidised medicine costs 300R/30AUD, I purchased a medical device at one point that retails for 10x that but I only paid $30...). I think people who are "sufficiently poor" get these pills for even cheaper or free, and there are some complicated rules about certain medicines. (My husband takes adderrall for his ADHD, and because he was diagnosed as a child the box of pills is $12, but for people diagnosed as adults the same box of pills is $84...)

changing it would be like replacing an antique oil lamp with an LED bulb!

you and i both know vampires would be all over that shit! oil lamps cause fires

u/CCC_037 [+2] (a month later)

The iron infusion was purely a result of losing 1L of blood, and contained one gram of iron. 1kg of raisins has 21mg of iron... So you'd have to eat 50kg of raisins... which is about 2.5 months worth of calories if you ate nothing but raisins. I think the hospital said it was on the order of 150 steaks.

Okay, yeah. Raisins would not have been enough, not on their own.

100R for a doctor consultation is super cheap to me!

It is pretty cheap. We don't have free medical facilities, but they don't break the bank, either.

you and i both know vampires would be all over that shit! oil lamps cause fires

Only if you actually light them. You're free to admire the artistry of an antique oil lamp all you want without causing fires, as long as it remains unlit.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a month later)

You're free to admire the artistry of an antique oil lamp all you want without causing fires, as long as it remains unlit.

Yeah, but vampires are still going to be using LEDs as a light source - well, for their human attendants to use, anyway. They can see in the dark, of course.

u/CCC_037 [+1] (a month later)

Yeah, but vampires are still going to be using LEDs as a light source - well, for their human attendants to use, anyway. They can see in the dark, of course.

Who wants humans mucking about in their antiques vault? Besides, light tends to make things fade. I mean, sure, a bit of light in the servants' quarters is one thing, but not in the antiques room!

How does this "seeing in the dark" business work, anyhow? Are they just able to see by the merest hint of ambient light, or is there more to it than that?

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a month later)

Who wants humans mucking about in their antiques vault? Besides, light tends to make things fade. I mean, sure, a bit of light in the servants' quarters is one thing, but not in the antiques room!

I don't know; I feel like vampires have more pressing matters to worry about than going through their antiques vault and looking over everything. Better to send a human down to fetch what you need, means you can do something else. I mean, the really valuable stuff, sure....

How does this "seeing in the dark" business work, anyhow? Are they just able to see by the merest hint of ambient light, or is there more to it than that?

Yeah, they wouldn't be able to see in an actual dark room (... a gargoyle probably would though with their 4D eyes...)

u/CCC_037 [+2] (a month later)

Oh, the only antiques that count as antiques to a vampire are the really valuable ones. The other stuff is more often referred to as just "that old junk room that I haven't cleaned out in century or two".

Yeah, they wouldn't be able to see in an actual dark room (... a gargoyle probably would though with their 4D eyes...)

So, the underground cave-dwelling vampire still needs some source of light, then.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a month later)

So, the underground cave-dwelling vampire still needs some source of light, then.

Yeah, but maybe glow-worms or something of that nature. Wouldn't need much, and glow worms can't catch fire.

Great, now I'm imagining a vampire creating a society of mole people...

Also, in tangentially related news, I've just started releasing that novel and have posted it to the sub!!! I know you aren't interested in reading it but I thought you'd appreciate progress updates nonetheless. Again, thanks for your support and encouragement, there's no way it would have happened without you.

u/CCC_037 [+1] (a month later)

Great, now I'm imagining a vampire creating a society of mole people...

Well, he's got to eat something. And if he takes a breeding colony of janisseries with him...

Wait - but what will they eat?

Also, in tangentially related news, I've just started releasing that novel and have posted it to the sub!!! I know you aren't interested in reading it but I thought you'd appreciate progress updates nonetheless. Again, thanks for your support and encouragement, there's no way it would have happened without you.

Congratulations!

(Yeah, you've got a wonderfully fascinating world, just not a wonderfully fascinating genre...)

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a month later)

Wait - but what will they eat?

Oh come on, they're clearly going to be a quasi-pagan cult with human sacrifice. Every couple of weeks, a member of their cult makes their way down the abyss to commune with the great Deep spirit. Most don't come back - after all, the Deep spirit is their god and the bottom of the cave is their heaven.

Sometimes, the Deep spirit sends a person back to prosthelytize, telling stories of the bliss that is the communal with the Deep spirit, and brings with them a giant container - impossibly clear, impossibly smooth glass that shows it came from the heavens - and the container is full of the manna from heaven, a thick red liquid that the town's ageless shaman drinks each day during their rituals. For the particularly pious among them, the manna can be used to heal wounds.

The cult believes that if the body dies above ground, the spirit of the Deep can never reach them, and they will rot into dust. That doesn't stop hopeful family members having the weekly sacrifice bring their relative's corpse with them, in the hopes that the Deep spirit can still take them in. And so the most infirm or most ill members of society tend to volunteer themselves for the one-way journey.

.... okay that came away from me for a bit there, so anyway, that's 1000% canon.

you've got a wonderfully fascinating world, just not a wonderfully fascinating genre

If the "two Strong Female Characters team up to try to kill William and save our Fair City from the Supernatural Menace" story ever gets off the ground, you'll be the first to know!

u/CCC_037 [+2] (a month later)

Oh come on, they're clearly going to be a quasi-pagan cult with human sacrifice.

That... actually works out surprisingly well, really.

If the "two Strong Female Characters team up to try to kill William and save our Fair City from the Supernatural Menace" story ever gets off the ground, you'll be the first to know!

That sounds more my sort of thing!

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a month later)

That... actually works out surprisingly well, really.

headcanon! plus the vampire god in question can just leave as she pleases, after all, she can sneak out at nighttime through an entrance the cult doesn't know about. They send people down to be sacrifices and they wander around until they die of thirst.

two strong female characters

I don't know if I've shown you this one before (maybe a year ago, it's quite old - I just went through and replaced the word 'e-cigarette' with 'vape' because the story's so old that slang has come out!), but this is the "most complete" thing I have from that, and it's during part of the Strong Female Character's downfall so maybe not.

---

She knew it smelled her. She’d read that a vampire always knew the whereabouts of a person it had bitten. There was no way to escape from it now. Even if it couldn’t smell her, she was stuck; in the middle of a dark alley, surrounded by walls that seemed thirty metres high.

The creature stood in the opening; the entrance to the alley seemed narrower than when she’d walked in, only a metre wide now. It seemed to fill the space. There was no getting around it.

She didn’t scream. She didn’t run. She didn’t even grab the crossbow that she had on her belt - the crossbow that always had a stake loaded, a stake that could puncture its heart and leave it helpless.

It stood there.

She walked towards it, holding her arms out.

It grabbed her in its big, strong arms. She tilted her head to the side, giving it access to the throbbing arteries in her neck. She could feel her blood pulsing in her jugular, calling out to it, begging it to take her.

It went to bite her….

Jack woke up, breathing heavily. That bloody dream again. That fucking dream.

She stood up, growling under her breath. She’d dreamed it almost every night since the bite. She thought it was the pain medicine at first, so she stopped taking it.

It made no difference.

The details were always different, but it always played out the same way. She was running from it, it caught up to her, and then she went into its arms of her own accord. Sometimes she even dreamed about being fed on. She didn’t like waking up from that part.

At this moment, she was as annoyed about having had the dream as she was about having woken up before the good bit.

She paced furiously, her long, thin nightie billowing around her like a storm. She was disgusted at her subconscious. It wanted her to give herself to that steaming, drooling creature. To be embraced by the long dead corpse of a king.

She wasn’t going to stand for that. This was a nightmare. It always was.

She would not let herself think otherwise.

Six weeks later…

Jack held the vape, the tip glowing green, to her lips with a shaking hand. The nicotine helped. She looked like a hooker on the job for the first time. She was even standing by a lamp post, she realised with a nervous chuckle.

She wondered what would happen.

She’d written the note a dozen times. The first time, she’d burned it within seconds of finishing, disgusted. The second time it had taken her a few minutes. The eighth time, she ripped it into big pieces, not bothering to put it in the paper shredder or even to make the pieces small enough not to be worth reassembling.

The ninth time, she took it with her to work. She threw it in the bin in the break room.

The tenth time she took it to work again, and this time left it on the doorstep of the church in broad daylight. But she didn’t show up.

The last time, she’d shown up, but she nervously circled the block in her car and drove straight home.

This time, here she was, out of her car. She’d been here almost five minutes. She decided that was enough - she didn’t want to do this. She wouldn’t leave a note again. It was stupid. She took another drag, having trouble getting the vape into her mouth through the shaking.

She turned around, to get back to her car. She managed not to scream. She bit down on the end of the vape instead. The metal hurt her teeth.

The tall, blonde corpse was standing there. Silent. It looked at her.

“I almost did not bother.”

She managed a tight smile through her vape. She grabbed it out of her mouth and put it in her pocket.

“There are others like you, you know.”

She nodded a little. She felt the crossbow on her belt. She could grab it and shoot it, maybe. Before it knew what was going on. Perhaps that’s what she was doing; setting a trap. Yes.

“Put the weapon away.”

She unhooked her crossbow and carefully removed the bolt. She threw it to the ground.

“And the other one.”

She grabbed the silver knife from inside her boot, and handed it to the dead man. It didn’t touch it.

“Oh. Sorry.” She murmured. She dropped the knife, too.

“Do you want to go somewhere more private?”

“My... my car.” Jack’s voice was high and shaky. She walked towards her car, not moving her gaze from her ghastly companion. She sat in the driver’s seat; it moved around to sit beside her.

She couldn’t believe she was doing this. What the hell had come over her?

It reached for her arm, holding her wrist up to its mouth. She could feel its cold breath.

“Uh…”

“Yes?”

“Can you… please, not too much, okay?” She tried to make herself smile again.

One month later…

She still needed the vape

She leant against the lamp post, waiting. She saw a kid walking towards her on the footpath; probably 18, 19. He was dressed in big pants and chains.

“Hey luv, how much?” He jeered.

She rolled her eyes, ignoring him.

He walked towards her, moving his arm to grab her. Jack reached to unclip her crossbow from her belt.

“Come on, you look like you could suck cock like a drowning -”

She held the bolt against his chest, but that wasn’t what shut him up.

There was a six foot tall corpse standing behind him, its hand around his throat. In less than a second, its fangs were in the kid’s neck. Blood pooled around its mouth, and the kid’s eyes rolled back in pleasure, as he moaned.

The moans quickly gave way to silence.

The dead man dropped the pallid corpse, thick, warm blood still around its mouth.

All Jack could think was to hope it was still hungry.

---

The only other stuff in that vein I have is some "5 years later" stuff, so the epilogue of the Two Strong Female Characters Fight Bad Guys. I've got some prologue but that's roleplayed rather than written.

And, you know, it does have romance in it. But more action-focused. (I think the romance/action in W/R is about 60/40, whereas in the Jack/Gwyn stuff it'd be more like 30/70). But whatever. Me and Coauthor basically wrote our own Twilight-equivalent with much better male behaviour, so to speak; we loved it and had fun with it. No shame in that! blarggh

u/CCC_037 [+2] (a month later)

headcanon! plus the vampire god in question can just leave as she pleases, after all, she can sneak out at nighttime through an entrance the cult doesn't know about.

If she bothers to still keep track of day and night, yes. (Presumably she's arranged to get decent wifi down there).

They send people down to be sacrifices and they wander around until they die of thirst.

Hmmm... it would make sense for there to be signs. "This way", "Down here" (a knotted rope having been helpfully tied to make the descent easier) and, finally, "Wait here".

Then the food is all conveniently in one place and not wandering around poking into places it's not supposed to poke into.

[excerpt]

Okay, yeah. That's definitely a downfall.

Notable lack of descriptive writing, but I think that reducing the descriptiveness as Jack's disassociation from the real world grows could be quite effective - disassociating the reader from the fictional world as Jack disassociates herself, kind of thing. (Of course, to make that work, you probably need (a) proper descriptions of things before and after Jack's period of addiction, and (b) completely overdone levels of description of what Jack's addicted to). Mind you, I have no idea whether or not that will actually work, but it seems like a thing that could be tried...

But whatever. Me and Coauthor basically wrote our own Twilight-equivalent with much better male behaviour, so to speak; we loved it and had fun with it. No shame in that! blarggh

No shame at all! Different people have different tastes, after all.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a month later)

If she bothers to still keep track of day and night, yes

Well, she's probably got a pretty good indication: when she gets close enough to the surface that the neutrinos or whatever are hitting her, she'll fall asleep. So she can only reach the surface during the evening.

Hmmm... it would make sense for there to be signs. "This way", "Down here" (a knotted rope having been helpfully tied to make the descent easier) and, finally, "Wait here".

Then the food is all conveniently in one place and not wandering around poking into places it's not supposed to poke into.

The problem is, you have to maintain that over centuries as the language your folk speak changes - assuming you've even allowed them to learn to read and write. I get your point though; it'd be pretty easy to have a "universal wait here" symbol, like an alter or something. And besides, the vampire probably locks her door.

(a) proper descriptions of things before and after Jack's period of addiction, and (b) completely overdone levels of description of what Jack's addicted to

.... that's.... a really good idea. I'll have to put that in, in like four years when I start writing that volume in earnest.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (a month later)

So she can only reach the surface during the evening.

Or at something like three in the morning, which is the worst time because she can reach the surface and then, just as she's away from her nice, safe cave, boom, dawn hits.

And besides, the vampire probably locks her door.

Yeah, but you don't want to forget one day and then find your food rummaging through your underwear drawer or something.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a month later)

Okay, you've got a good point. The final status of the vampire who lives in the cave is she rose at the wrong time, turned to dust by the sun (I'm.... not sure what happens to a vampire that dies in the sunlight, like, how they physically look when they die?), and her cult stays loyally sending humans down to the bottom. The sacrifices stop occaisionally returning back to the surface with manna, and the shaman says that it's because they're not being faithful enough so everyone just prays harder.

after a few months the ageless shaman detoxes from the vampire blood and is left shocked at what she did, but the townspeople take her and kill her, thinking that she has failed them or is possessed or something.

Eventually, the legends fade and they become a cult that buries people by throwing them into a deep cave, and forbid access there. Anthropologists remark on what an interesting cult it is and write papers.

Of course, one of those anthropologists wants to explore the cave to see the mass graves, and eventually they get permission to send a small contingent of cavers. The huge chambers are discovered and, eventually, a locked vault. They make a tiny hole in it and send a fibre-optic camera, revealing wonders that would rival King Tut's tomb...

u/CCC_037 [+1] (a month later)

That's... one way it could end, yes. There is another. The vampire might have simply decided never to come up aboveground again - and, in the rare case where it might one day prove necessary, the vampire has prepared an antechamber, high enough that he can tell by the lethargy he feels whether it is day or night (and which he perhaps visits once a month or so when he needs a bit of a break from his - science or novel-writing or whatever he spends his time down there doing - and he wants to have a nap. It is, of course, still sealed against intruders larger than a neutrino).

On the (incredibly rare) occasion when he needs to personally visit the surface, he strolls up to this chamber, waits until he falls asleep, then he knows when he wakes up that the night has just begun, and it is safe to exit.

But - he is almost completely disconnected from the world. The Internet - and the social changes of the last few decades - took everyone else by surprise - they totally blindsided the Cave Vampire. His Cult, though it had lasted for centuries, was finding it harder and harder to maintain itself in a changing society - and the fact that it was tied to one particular geographic location did not help.

And then something happens to the Shaman. Struck by lightning, hit by a bus, poached by a rival vampire - one way or another, something happens, and the cult just collapses.

The Vampire, happily pottering about in his cave, doesn't notice at first. Then he wonders why there isn't any food. Then he resolves to send a strongly worded letter with the next cultist. Then...

...he finally decides he clearly needs to take matters into his own hands. He just has to remember, before he goes to the surface, to wait in the antechamber until just after he wakes up. Though he's shocked - his cult was always so reliable before! Still, he shouldn't have any trouble setting up a new one - he just hopes they last as long as the old one did.

Any educated person will still speak Latin, right?

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a month later)

That's a really cool premise!

wants to have a nap

... I wasn't thinking about it like that but you touch on an interesting point here: vampires probably can't fall asleep without the sunrise. I'm imagining far-future vampires when Sol is nova paying mages to enchant the stars they live around so they can get some damn sleep!

And then something happens to the Shaman. Struck by lightning, hit by a bus, poached by a rival vampire - one way or another, something happens, and the cult just collapses.

This is probably the most tenuous part as... well, look at the history of religion; cults can hold on until they have millions of worshippers. Then again, just look at the wikipedia page for list of messiah claimants - most of these guys had a cult at one point, but only one endures to this day in any significant numbers, and some have maintained a few hundred years but are dying out.

Anyway... the denouement would be that the vampire is shocked by technology, even more shocked to hear that 90% of all vampires died in 1700 (how did she miss something like that?) and.... well, look at the list of messiah claimants again: pick any that are currently living and use them as a template. (She'll move them over to the cave in a century or so, after the cult has truly begun to accept her unageing nature and her divine powers: of course, she'll plant just enough evidence that she is her own daughter or something so the nonbelieving public doesn't get suspicious.)

u/CCC_037 [+2] (a month later)

... I wasn't thinking about it like that but you touch on an interesting point here: vampires probably can't fall asleep without the sunrise. I'm imagining far-future vampires when Sol is nova paying mages to enchant the stars they live around

They don't need to enchant an entire star for that. Far easier to enchant a teddy bear, an alarm clock, a pillow, or something, which gives a good few hours' sleep every time it's activated (squeezed, set, punched, however the spell is arranged...)

This is probably the most tenuous part as... well, look at the history of religion; cults can hold on until they have millions of worshippers.

Can. Doesn't mean "will". Besides, this cult already lasted a few hundred years...

(She'll move them over to the cave in a century or so, after the cult has truly begun to accept her unageing nature and her divine powers: of course, she'll plant just enough evidence that she is her own daughter or something so the nonbelieving public doesn't get suspicious.)

That's her plan, at the moment she leaves her cave, yes. It's possible that it'll work - it's also possible that she finds something she really likes ("so, tell me more about these 'video games'"...) and either upgrades her lair or even delays founding her new cult a little - or, not knowing enough to be cautious of discovery, she ends up with her 'divine powers' all over the Internet, and thus attracting a number of surprisingly well-informed vampire hunters (who are, in turn, not as ready as the should be for a vampire of her age and power)...

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a month later)

Far easier to enchant a teddy bear, an alarm clock, a pillow, or something, which gives a good few hours' sleep every time it's activated

"Teddy needs a hug!" (... if you've seen the new season of Black Mirror).

Can. Doesn't mean "will". Besides, this cult already lasted a few hundred years...

Surely under the copernican principle, that means the cult will likely last longer? (OK, that requires there not be any "special times", and the cult's only shaman ever being struck by lightning might count as a "special time")

and either upgrades her lair or even delays founding her new cult a little

Oh true. Damnit. callmesalticidae was suggesting I write a series of short stories set in the universe. Now "vampire with cave and cult" is sounding like a pretty good premise. I should write that down. We've come up with a lot of those...

u/CCC_037 [+2] (a month later)

"Teddy needs a hug!" (... if you've seen the new season of Black Mirror).

...I haven't, no. That's some TV show, I take it?

Surely under the copernican principle, that means the cult will likely last longer?

Yes; but it needs to end some time, and honestly, if it doesn't end now, then that particular story can't be told...

callmesalticidae was suggesting I write a series of short stories set in the universe. Now "vampire with cave and cult" is sounding like a pretty good premise. I should write that down. We've come up with a lot of those...

Yes! Yes! Do it!

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a month later)

...I haven't, no. That's some TV show, I take it?

More like that's some TV show. It's a great... dystopian near future sci-fi in the style of The Twilight Zone/Outer Limits. It's on netflix, and it's very, very good. If the first episode isn't your cup of tea, pause it and go watch the second instead. The first episode is... disturbing for some people.

Ok, here's a question I was meaning to ask you:

So, William doesn't have a thrall set up at the beginning of the novel (there's actually... no good explanation for that, other than he might have left the thrall at home while was travelling; more likely, he drained the thrall dry by accident or "by accident" shortly before leaving). And when they have to flee Rome in the third chapter, it became painfully obvious to me that William really should have a thrall for exactly this sort of event: he can't possibly trust Red to look after him when he's comatose, so I have inserted a thrall for him (Paola is her name for now). I figured, if he has no thrall, and he can easily maintain 3 or so, then there's no harm in him making a temporary thrall for his holiday in Rome and then abandoning her when he's done with her. That way, should he need a loyal and strong servant, she's there at a moment's notice. And he uses her.

But now I have a character who shows up for a couple of scenes with no explanation and disappears just as suddenly, which isn't ideal. So I've been thinking about the whole thing, and I've come on a few options:

1. Paola is Cassius's thrall, and William trusts Cassius well enough to have one of his thralls look after him while he's asleep

2. Paola is a temporary thrall who William picks up in Rome and discards when they get to Corsica

3. Paola is actually an Australian thrall who came with William from Australia; William doesn't want to put her up in his hotel because he doesn't want other vampires to know who his onsite thrall is or just because the hotel is fully booked for vampires only during the opera and their thralls stay at a nearby dorm.

Problem with #1: Why would William trust Paola!1 over Paola!2? It seems 2 is better than 1 in every way (other than P!1 would be stronger than P!2)

Problem with #2: Aforementioned: P!2 appears and then vanishes, seems like a deus ex machina

Problem with #3: P3 means that William is living a whole double live with Paola, behind Red's back. Even though there's nothing untoward going on there, it seems... dishonest. Also, when William is travelling through Europe, Paola would reappear and do some stuff (which is fine - I can write her in easily enough). Then, when William is travelling through the US later on, Paola would be there. Unless William decides to discard Paola in Europe for some reason - but why would he? (Unless... character development, and Paola is originally from Italy and William decides to leave her with her family? But I don't think his character has expanded that far...)

Ultimately, Red is going to become William's thrall - but that is not going to happen for 5 years, and I don't want William to be keeping two thralls at once, I don't think it will add anything to the story.

I think you can sidestep the dishonesty part of #3 by having William openly working with Paola on things (or, at least, telling Red he's going to see her) - but then I feel - hmmm... wait... HMMM...

Idea #4: Paola is one of Elodia's thralls, either Lucia (the one Red befriends) or one of the minor ones (Odette I think is the name of one). This conserves the number of characters and makes it seem like less of an asspull. It does, however, still have the same big problem as #1 - i.e. why would William not have given himself a standby thrall and instead rely on thralls of someone he trusts even less than Cassius.

Thoughts?

u/CCC_037 [+2] (a month later)

Ack. Apologies for the long delay.

Your problems with #1 are insurmountable - the character would not trust Cassius' thrall(s) when he can just make his own. It doesn't make sense.

The problems with #3 also exist - what hotel would separate a vampire from their thrall? What vampire would stay in such a hotel?

#2, on the other hand, is different. The problems with #2 are merely a matter of presentation.

You say that P!2 "appears and then vanishes", seeming like a deus ex machina. Here's how I'd suggest approaching it:

• First, we have pre-thrall Paola appearing in a scene, and Red notices her. She doesn't have to do much, but she needs to show a strongly assertive personality - perhaps she's protesting something, trying to shame any young men who aren't at the Front with goose feathers? Something that has her holding a large sign or handcuffing herself to public monuments yelling that she will not be silenced. (Preferably something to do with the war, to help solidify the time setting).

• It's possible that there appears a scene in which Paolo first meets William. Perhaps she's been arrested for her protesting, and William "arranges" to have her bought from her cell and to him, where he will ensure that she "makes no more trouble" - which reinforces how much the vampires are in control, behind the scenes. Or perhaps she goes home through a dark alley at night, there's a sound of footsteps behind her, she turns to see a face and there's William. (This scene is optional, depending how much of Paola you want on-screen)

• Next time we see her, she's William's thrall. Her eyes are slightly unfocused, she's polite, servile, apologetic, and obeys William's every command without hesitation. Red notices her again, and recognises her - and is struck by the change in her demeanour. But he doesn't ask about it, because William is his social superior, and you just don't ask a social superior that sort of question. (He might ask Paola, and/or arrange to give her a way out - which she does not take). Red considers various explanations, and ends up coming to the wrong conclusion (this must be someone who just looks like the person he saw earlier, they act so differently, it's all just a coincidence...)

• Later, when it's time for Paola to be discarded, Red walks in on William feeding from her. Surprised, William continues feeding for too long, and drains her completely. (Whether William tells Red that he's just killed her, or pretends that "she just fainted", depends on their relations at that time. Either way, Red never sees her again, and never hears of her unexplained death, either). After all, William has a reputation for destroying thralls - it will help if we see him doing so on-stage at least once.

How does that sound?

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a month later)

To be honest - I don't like it. Some feedback I got on the story (about a different issue) was "if a character graphically tortures puppies in the first act, then spends the second act undergoing character growth, and in the third act realises how wrong it is to hurt puppies, it doesn't matter that she learned the error of her ways: people are still going to hate her because she tortured puppies".

Your idea, while very good, interesting, and horrific, makes William hard to redeem, and he's already going to be facing an uphill battle in that department. Besides: I don't think he'd pick a "troublesome" thrall. It's not like thralls are lobotomised; they are just fiercely loyal and generally pathologise the feeling as a deep love (romantic, familial, or platonic). I think, in general, William would pick brother or daughter figures.

At the moment, I've got a roughly acceptable workaround: Paola is a staff member at the vampire hotel, whose job is to do exactly what she does with William: act as an "onsite/backup thrall" who knows the area, has access to local resources, etc. It is a variant of #1, but I feel it's less of an asspull because it stands to reason that a hotel for vampires would have a 'bodyguard' onsite who was trustworthy. I'm going to see if I can put her into the background of an earlier scene so it doesn't seem like as much of an asspull, too.

Thanks for taking the time to reply! I really appreciate the idea, it is really cool to imagine a protestor or suffragette or something getting embroiled in all this. We're just in the unenviable position of having the main love interest be a reforming psychopath.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (a month later)

It is a variant of #1, but I feel it's less of an asspull because it stands to reason that a hotel for vampires would have a 'bodyguard' onsite who was trustworthy.

That makes sense. If something happens to William, other vampires find out, and the hotel's reputation is trashed - and since most vampires are psychopaths, this does not end well for the hotel's owners.

"if a character graphically tortures puppies in the first act, then spends the second act undergoing character growth, and in the third act realises how wrong it is to hurt puppies, it doesn't matter that she learned the error of her ways: people are still going to hate her because she tortured puppies".

That's not wrong. But the thing is - you have here a character who, as an important detail in his backstory, does torture the puppies. Having him not do so on-stage means that the character as presented to the reader is... biased. Incomplete, in a way.

Yes, people are going to hate William for torturing puppies. But that puppy torture is nonetheless a true reflection of who William is - he does start out as a psychopath and multiple murderer. He shouldn't get a blanket amnesty because he's going to be redeemed one day.

Besides: I don't think he'd pick a "troublesome" thrall.

...hmmmm. Fair enough - I just wanted the greatest personality contrast between "before" and "after" to make it clear to Red - and the reader - that Something Happened Here.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a month later)

Also, don't worry about not replying or meeting some schedule: I am acutely aware how fortunate I am to have someone like you who is so interested in the worldbuilding, and the radio silence I just took as you saying "thankyou for the chat, I will see you around". (I did mention to callmesalticidae that I was wondering if you were alive, but that was a joke!).

Yeah - to keep going with the analogy, I've got William kicking puppies, but not outright torturing them. We'll find out he tortures them, but never directly see it.

Hell, I probably owe you an excerpt by now? This is not kicking puppies, I guess. This is glaring at puppies? I dunno.

The argument we're working on rewriting is going to have some probably worse stuff in it though. Overall, vampire psycopathy, it's a lot of little things: when readers get a glimpse into his PoV, it's... not pretty, and I try to do it sparingly.

---

context: Red wants to watch William feed, to "protect" him, because he's worried about William

---

The next day, Red was waiting in the sitting room at sun down, nursing a thick mug of coffee. He wore clothing that was more typically Corsican than his usual style and darkly coloured, following William’s instructions to appear as ordinary and invisible as possible.

When William entered the room, his expression was far more sombre than usual. He was, as always, overdressed: black pants, a blue shirt, suspenders and his thick black gloves. Apparently it was not necessary that he blend in.

“Are you absolutely sure you wish to come with me, my dear?” He asked, businesslike.

Red got to his feet to squeeze William’s gloved hand. “I’m sure.”

William gently pulled his hand away and took a small step away from Red. “You will not find it enjoyable. It does not look as pleasurable as it feels.”

“I’ll be fine.”

“Then follow me.” He murmured, choosing a heavy black winter coat from the rack by the door. Red shrugged his own coat on, fastening the buttons. In the cold December air, he wished he’d thought to wear gloves of his own.

They reached the centre of town after a fifteen minute walk; the uneven cobblestone streets made a maze of alleyways. William ducked into the entrance of a particularly cold, dark laneway, and Red followed close behind him.

Red scanned his surroundings, his hands buried in his jacket pockets for warmth. At the end of the alley, a man leaned against the wall, fidgeting. He was advanced in age; probably a grandfather many times over. He wore an old but well-kept heavy grey coat and a black hat with white trim. He kept on moving his hand to his breast pocket where the outline of a pack of cigarettes was visible.

“Is that him?”

William nodded. “Yes, it is.” He stared at Red, waiting to see if he would change his mind now that the reality was before them.

Red waited, not knowing that William was waiting for his approval. He realised with a start, and then gestured with one hand and nodding. He felt uncomfortable, like he was at one of his sister’s parties.

William smiled and clasped Red’s hand, giving it a firm squeeze. He walked deeper into the alley with deliberate steps, walking loud enough that the old man could hear him. To Red, these movements seemed almost comical on someone who normally walked with so much grace.

Red’s amusement was short lived; the old man saw William and gave what looked to Red to be a lecherous grin. It gave Red a sour feeling to his stomach. He tried to ignore it.

William walked right up to the man, standing very close, their chests almost touching. They spoke a few words to one another, quieter than Red could hope to hear. He found he was glad for it.

William grabbed the old man, pushing his head aside and burying his face in the old man’s wrinkled neck. The man cried out in shock and gave a low, pained moan. Red knew that he made noises when William fed from him, but he never imagined that they sounded like that. William roughly placed his hand over the old man’s mouth, to silence his screams, in a gesture that had seemed tender and loving when he’d done it to Red when they were at the hotel. As the man stood there, moaning into William’s glove, Red could see his bright eyes begin to go glassy as he struggled for breath. Finally, able to bear it no longer, Red looked away.

The ordeal lasted another five minutes - easily twice as long as Red had ever been fed from - and then Red heard the dull moan stop as William let the man go and walked away. The man sank to the floor, a grin on his face. The moment William was back at the entrance of the alley, the old man reached into his pocket, pulled out a cigarette, struck a match, and lit it. His movements seemed more fluid, more comfortable.

William took a step forward and hugged Red. After a few minutes, Red pulled away, giving William a small, slightly strained smile.

They began the walk home in silence.

“You need not come again.” William said after a minute and a half.

Red considered this, this time being the one to draw out the silence. “How often do you get hurt? When you go out?”

“As badly as this? Not since before that time.”

“You said you had been stabbed and run over by horses?”

“Those are minor inconveniences.”

“Hm.” Red paused, moving to take William’s hand. “I don’t know what I would do if anything happened to you.”

“You know where I keep the money and travel papers. You can do as you will with those, if it came to that.”

Red frowned, trying to figure out whether William was making a joke. When he realised that he was serious, Red continued. “The money wouldn’t matter to me. I would… miss you.” He said finally, aware how the words weren’t quite enough.

“Better you miss me living in comfort than miss me working dangerous jobs for enough bread to get by.” To William, the thought of Red outliving him was fanciful.

“You are maddening, sometimes.” Red smiled, his voice full of affection.

“And you are too sentimental, my dear.” He squeezed Red’s hand.

u/CCC_037 [+1] (a month later)

To be fair, you don't really owe me excerpts either. But let's see about this one...

---

Where's the other, non-sight senses? Where's the touch and texture of the world? Where's the nip of cold in the wind, the smell of smoke in the air, the sound of dried leaves crunching underfoot (or boots against cobblestones, whatever)? Where's the snap and crackle that makes the world live?

...and on a completely separate issue, why has William not arranged for his thralls to visit him on a strict schedule, so he doesn't have to go out into the cold? It's convenient (like having pizza delivered) and it's not like they wouldn't do it...

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a month later)

you don't really owe me excerpts either

Excerpts to a story you said you aren't interested in reading? That you give me notes on? You do know editing is a profession, right?

Where's the snap and crackle that makes the world live?

It's in the editing bay, which this excerpt has unfortunately not made its way into yet!

why has William not arranged for his thralls to visit him on a strict schedule

That's his preferred way of doing it, but he knows it would make Red uneasy (c.f. the excerpt), so he visits them instead in Corsica. He arranged for the alleyway meeting so that way Red would be extra horrified because alleyways are not known for looking safe, wholesome, and classy. The reason he wants to horrify Red is because Red is trying to get stronger and stuff to become William's bodyguard or something; William is just laughing because he knows that Red couldn't possibly guard him, and wants him to lose that notion ASAP.

so he doesn't have to go out into the cold?

What does a vampire care for the cold?

---

To give you an idea about Red's attitude towards janissaries c. 2015, here's an excerpt for you. It's super, duper rough: no senses, no flow, repetition, things appearing and disappearing, issues with tense, injokes, etc. So please don't bother with feedback on that sort of thing. It'd be heavily edited if it ever ends up being usable.

Context: Jack is a janissary, and she recently attacked William to force him to feed on her when he didn't want to. Otis is a dog.

---

Red’s startled out of his stupor by a harsh knock on the main door. He gets to his feet immediately. “Stay here. Otis.”

Otis obediently gets to his feet, little crumpled face and big brown eyes tense.

Red takes a few deep breaths before opening the door, sharply and quickly.

Jack’s at the door, her crossbow hanging from her belt, and her almost permanent scowl prominent on her face. “You’re not going to try anything, are you?” She says, sounding wary that there might be some fallout from her little staking incident, rather than aggressive.

“That entirely depends on you, doesn’t it?” He asks, his voice quite low and trying to look intimidating despite being so much shorter than her. He begrudgingly steps back from the door and sarcastically waves her in. Otis stands on the other side of the door, ears back and teeth bared. He lets out a very quiet growl as Jack walks past him.

The hair on the back of her neck is standing on end; she can smell the death in this place. She can smell the odd smells that come from a corpse that has an active sex life in a poorly-ventilated space. Everything in her body is screaming that maybe she should go, run away, be safe. She feels like a fly that can see the deadly spines of the venus flytrap, but is drawn ever closer by the sweet smell of something rotting.

“Let’s get this over with.” She murmurs, as Red leads her into William’s specially designed feeding chamber.

It’s a small room that was built in the 1880s along with the church itself. It’s windowless and lacks the strips of LEDs that have been tastefully put into the other sections. This room’s source of light is a scraggly candle behind a glass cover that has an open top for ventilation.

The room’s featureless except for a device in the centre of the room that looks like some sort of medieval torture rack; it’s got manacles for the hands and feet of the feeding subject. In one corner, more manacles hang from the ceiling, with a corresponding set on the floor. A mask like the one Hannibal wears is hanging from the wall, too.

Jack tenses up even more. Everything’s screaming that this is a bad idea, that she’s going to be killed. But, in some odd way, she has a sense of trust in this vampire - though not in his former ghoul.

William is sitting in a corner on a wooden chair. He stands up and gives Red a quick kiss, before turning to Jack.

“Now, I’m sure you’re not surprised that we’re hosting you here, rather than at your car again.”

“I’m not.” Jack mutters.

“Could you search her for weapons, please, darling?” William smiles. Red can tell from his inflections that William is not opposed to him being rougher than strictly necessary.

“With pleasure.” He snatches the crossbow off Jack before she can fight him back and chucks it unceremoniously onto a wooden table. “Hands on the wall. I’m guessing you know the drill.”

Jack scowls a little more, but stands with her hands against the wall, and legs splayed. She’s wearing blue jeans with a utility belt and a purple form-fitting t-shirt. She’s got knives (and also a taser) in her belt and one strapped to her calf.

“Jesus Christ, you’re just visiting our place, not occupyin’ it.” Red mutters as he pulls the last knife from her calf, accidentally-on-purpose nicking the skin a little too close to tendon for comfort. He throws it into a pile with the taser and other knives. “She’s clean.” He says finally.

She cringes in pain, biting her bottom lip.

“Thankyou.” William smiles appreciatively. “Restrain her.”

“Wait, no -”

“When one’s trust is betrayed, one must be forever cautious.” He replies dryly, and Jack very reluctantly allows herself to be hooked up to the thing.

Red shoves her wrists a little more forcefully than necessary into the manacles. His face looks tense, like he is holding back a string of quite terrible things he can’t quite articulate properly. He steps back and folds his arms, his old military jacket straining a little at the arms.

Jack’s standing there, confined, her back to William. She can feel her rapidly beating heart in her throat as she waits for the inevitable pleasure, as well as the nervousness from potentially being, well, torn asunder in an act of revenge.

She is not disappointed; William comes up behind her and bites her wrist - not wanting to go for the slightly more tasty and significantly more erotic neck in front of his honey - and she screams in pleasure. He only feeds for a few moments before letting go.

“Release her and then come with me to the bedchamber.” William says in almost a monotone as he exits the room.

“Yessir.” Red says quickly, in agreement and trying not to show any feeling - a mixture of arousal and annoyance. He quickly unshackles Jack in near record time, and grabs her by the uninjured arm to lead her outside.

“Are you going to faint?” Red asks. He knows, objectively, William wouldn’t take enough for that, but it is still a subtle jealousy thing.

Jack is on cloud nine; Red is used to this from other addicts he’s seen William feed on in the past, though.

“I don’t think so. I feel great.” She says slowly.

“Fantastic.” Red says darkly. He wrenches open the door, and unceremoniously throws her outside, slamming the door shut behind her before heading to William’s room.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (a month later)

Excerpts to a story you said you aren't interested in reading? That you give me notes on? You do know editing is a profession, right?

I'm not interested in romance as a genre. I am interested in your worldbuilding, and in storycrafting as an art, at least one of which all my notes have concerned in one way or another...

That's his preferred way of doing it, but he knows it would make Red uneasy (c.f. the excerpt)

Ooooh, he's deliberately making things creepy for Red.

Your alley needs a lot more atmosphere to sell that. Remember, no-one else can see the scene that's in your head; only the bits you write. (And the alley that you wrote came across to me as fairly open and pleasant, because nothing you said counteracted that impression).

The reason he wants to horrify Red is because Red is trying to get stronger and stuff to become William's bodyguard or something; William is just laughing because he knows that Red couldn't possibly guard him, and wants him to lose that notion ASAP.

Then shouldn't William arrange for an 'attack' - perhaps a couple of his thralls with knives, under strict instruction to scare but not harm Red - just so he can show Red how utterly outclassed Red is?

What does a vampire care for the cold?

Good point.

[excerpt]

...

It's super, duper rough: no senses, no flow, repetition, things appearing and disappearing, issues with tense, injokes, etc. So please don't bother with feedback on that sort of thing. It'd be heavily edited if it ever ends up being usable.

You've got a good handle on character motivations, and that's good. But I think that everything else I could say about this excerpt, you've already covered in the above paragraph - and it'll be nothing you haven't heard before.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a month later)

I'm not interested in romance as a genre. I am interested in your worldbuilding, and in storycrafting as an art, at least one of which all my notes have concerned in one way or another...

Still, editing is a profession. Hey, if you enjoy reading, and I enjoy feedback, then everyone wins, right?

Ooooh, he's deliberately making things creepy for Red.

Now you've got me wondering how deliberately creepy he's making things: I was more visualising it in a "very much not sugarcoating" sense. (I did picture a creepy alley, though, so I'll definitely have to work on that).

Then shouldn't William arrange for an 'attack' - perhaps a couple of his thralls with knives, under strict instruction to scare but not harm Red - just so he can show Red how utterly outclassed Red is?

It's funny, my original instinct was having William stage an attack on himself, so Red could fight them off and feel nice/useful. Your idea sounds a lot better, and that arc was looking for a resolution: maybe that's it.

Because, bonus points, Red's watching in horror as William feeds; the thugs show up and start doing ninja moves on him; Red barely manages to fend them off, but has lost his dagger or whatever; then William finishes feeding, casually strolls up to the attacker, and picks him up by the neck.

But I think that everything else I could say about this excerpt, you've already covered in the above paragraph - and it'll be nothing you haven't heard before.

Yeah, when I show you stuff that's at that level of rough, I kind of die a little inside. But it's seemed relevant enough once or twice that I've decided it's worth the embarrassment.

u/CCC_037 [+1] (a month later)

Still, editing is a profession. Hey, if you enjoy reading, and I enjoy feedback, then everyone wins, right?

Eeyup.

Now you've got me wondering how deliberately creepy he's making things: I was more visualising it in a "very much not sugarcoating" sense. (I did picture a creepy alley, though, so I'll definitely have to work on that).

Hmmm... needs more descriptive work even for that, yes.

Because, bonus points, Red's watching in horror as William feeds; the thugs show up and start doing ninja moves on him; Red barely manages to fend them off, but has lost his dagger or whatever; then William finishes feeding, casually strolls up to the attacker, and picks him up by the neck.

And then William casually tosses the attacker onto a nearby rooftop, where he perfectly sensibly stops moving. Because no matter how much William tells Red that he's outclassed, Red's not going to believe it until he sees it.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a month later)

creepy alley

So... it's damp, small, poorly lit, the rustle and scurry of rats, smell of garbage that people have left out.....

And then William casually tosses the attacker onto a nearby rooftop, where he perfectly sensibly stops moving. Because no matter how much William tells Red that he's outclassed, Red's not going to believe it until he sees it.

Ugh, there's the trouble of writing a romance novel - William can't do anything too heinous on screen (ESPECIALLY not in front of Red), or people will hate him too much, or think the romance is unrealistic/etc. Like... if a guy I liked did that, threw someone onto a roof, and they died, when he'd already demonstrated he could just hold him at arm's length and stop any harm happening... I'd never be able to look at him the same.

I mean, I don't think I'd ever date a vampire who had a cavalier attitude about killing people. It takes a heck of a lot of trust for something like that.

Then again, thinking about William's reaction to Red training, it's two-fold:

1. He's glad Red has something to do during the day, because it means he's not depressed and mopey, and that's good for him on two levels: first, he cares about Red and wants him to be happy; but for plausible deniability/vampire-status-reasons, having a depressed human around is probably a security hazard and isn't going to make him look impressive for maintaining one. Also, it's something relatively harmless to keep Red occupied.

2. He's worried about Red getting injured: Red dislocates a shoulder falling out of a tree. And why risk damage to himself, if the exercise/training is worthless anyway?

Would showing Red he was outclassed by having a Matrix style fight actually help? Or would it just make Red feel bad about himself / like exercising is futile and he ends up depressed and mopey again?

u/CCC_037 [+1] (a month later)

So... it's damp, small, poorly lit, the rustle and scurry of rats, smell of garbage that people have left out.....

Yes! Exactly! Now remember to put those in when you write the scene!

Ugh, there's the trouble of writing a romance novel - William can't do anything too heinous on screen (ESPECIALLY not in front of Red), or people will hate him too much, or think the romance is unrealistic/etc.

Um. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but - is it really important for the audience to like William?

I mean, at this stage of the story, William is an unrepentant multiple murderer. (I can see him trying to clean up his act in front of Red, for one reason or another, but - at least at first - when Red steps out of the picture, William should probably show the occasional hint of being entirely cavalier about the lives of other humans).

On top of that, the idea that you can't have a romance novel that involves murder on the part of the major players... consider, briefly, this scene:

• DAMSEL comes on-stage, (stage left) pursued.
• Pursuers follow. There are six of them, all BRIGANDS.
• BRIGANDS catch DAMSEL, and proceed to beat and rob her.
• BRIGANDS begin to discuss doing a lot worse to DAMSEL, while she is helpless.
• Fortunately, KNIGHT arrives, stage right.
• KNIGHT proceeds to beat up and decapitate BRIGANDS.
• KNIGHT rescues DAMSEL, places her atop his horse, and rides off into the sunset.

Is this scene not the famous "knight in shining armour", one of the major tropes of romance? And did Knight not just brutally murder half a dozen people?

Now, I can believe that you (or any other single person) would not want to date KNIGHT after those casual murders. But I do not believe that no-one would.

And, again, at this early stage William is a murderer. I think that this either needs to be shown in some way, or William's backstory may need to change to fit his portrayal.

Like... if a guy I liked did that, threw someone onto a roof, and they died,

Oh, I wasn't trying to suggest that the guy on the roof had died. Just stopped moving because when some guy casually tosses you up four storeys, you do not attract his attention again if you can possibly help it. (And then he slunk sheepishly down the fire escape an hour or so later).

Then again, thinking about William's reaction to Red training, it's two-fold

Huh. I didn't even think that William might have reason to want Red training.

He's glad Red has something to do during the day, because it means he's not depressed and mopey, and that's good for him on two levels

...okay, that's actually a pretty good reason, all told.

He's worried about Red getting injured

...this isn't. If William is rationally weighing these two factors, then Factor 1 should win out completely. But if his reasoning is drowned out by emotion, then Factor 2 could be unreasonably heavily weighted.

...Factor 2 can be severely mitigated by having his current thrall (Paola, perhaps?) look after Red during the day.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a month later)

Um. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but - is it really important for the audience to like William?

In my opinion, it's not necessarily important that the audience like William as much as it's important that they don't hate William. I would definitely consider it important they like him, though. I'm trying to do a Rational take on romance tropes, and a very common criticism of romance stories is that people don't get what the protag sees in the love interest, or the love interest is clearly creepy/abusive/etc. Just think of criticism received by Twilight or 50 Shades.

And since I don't have a market research company on the task, and I'm kind of writing something for which I'm the target audience, I can abstract that out as "would I want to date this guy". If it's "maybe" then OK, if it's "god no" then not happening.

when Red steps out of the picture, William should probably show the occasional hint of being entirely cavalier about the lives of other humans

For me the "meaning" of romance as a.... part of life, is that the people you love help you grow and become better people by exposing you to different points of view and calling you out on your shit. When William spends time with Red, he undergoes character growth. Having him throw that character growth to the side the second Red's gone seems disingenuous and contrary to what I personally view as the "spirit" of romance.

I mean, don't get me wrong, he's not going to continue growing while Red's gone, and he might take some steps back, but he's not like the trope of someone becoming vegetarian because their partner's vegetarian and after a big breakup they go to McDonald's and get a double cheeseburger to stick to them. It's more like the trope of someone who is a drug addict, gets clean for a partner, sees how much better being clean is than being a drug addict, and even though the partner leaves they stay clean for a while with maybe a few relapses but still ultimately accepting that they want to be clean even if they can't without their partner.

Is this scene not the famous "knight in shining armour", one of the major tropes of romance? And did Knight not just brutally murder half a dozen people?

Yes and yes; and that is what I want my story not to do, because any damsel in her right mind would not want to be with the knight at that scene. Add in some more scenes of the knight going "oh damsel, won't you love me?" and her going "not until you learn your manners" and a Beauty and the Beast montage or five later and then I would be OK with it.

Now, I can believe that you (or any other single person) would not want to date KNIGHT after those casual murders. But I do not believe that no-one would.

People stay with abusive partners all the time, or stay in loveless marriages for the children, or stay with opposite sex partners because they can't admit to themselves that they're gay, etc. Those people should not be the protagonists of romance novels as those are not romantic stories.

And, again, at this early stage William is a murderer. I think that this either needs to be shown in some way, or William's backstory may need to change to fit his portrayal.

I'm not showing murder, he probably kills a human every two years or so. It is not like he murders three humans before breakfast each morning, you know?

(FWIW, couteaubleu hated the story because he thought William was too evil, so it's not just me!)

Oh, I wasn't trying to suggest that the guy on the roof had died. Just stopped moving because when some guy casually tosses you up four storeys, you do not attract his attention again if you can possibly help it. (And then he slunk sheepishly down the fire escape an hour or so later).

Wouldn't that be awkward to show on-screen, though? It's a nice thought, and I did think, "well obviously he wouldn't be ACTUALLY dead, he'd just look dead" - but if Red thought he was dead, then it's almost as bad as William actually doing the murdering because Red should still be shocked/disgusted by the whole thing since he, y'know, thinks it's real.

But if his reasoning is drowned out by emotion, then Factor 2 could be unreasonably heavily weighted.

Exactly. Red gets injured, and it could have potentially been quite serious, and all of a sudden William is a bit panicked.

Here's the excerpt:

---

[red has dislocated his shoulder training; he's lying on the floor and William is sitting beside him, trying to pop his shoulder back in]

Satisfied with the angle of Red’s arm, William pulled it outwards. He was very gentle but very, very firm. “When I sleep, you can do anything but this. You could have been killed.” He scolded softly.

“I didn’t think. It won’t happen again.”

“It will! You have been injured before this, not so badly, but still.” He muttered, placing a foot against Red’s hip to hold him in place as he pulled Red’s arm. “There is no advantage to you doing this. No matter how hard you train, there is nothing you can do to protect me.”

“Wow. You sure know how to make a guy feel special.” He breathed in sharply as he felt the muscles in his shoulder give way, allowing the joint to softly pop back into place. The pain was suddenly gone, though the muscles were still tender. William made a small, satisfied noise.

“I am trying to keep you from hurting yourself.” William muttered, getting to his feet. He stood straight for a moment, before bending to offer Red his arm. It’s the sort of thing he wouldn’t have done a year ago: the sort of tiny human gesture that most would take for granted.

Red sighed and set down the whiskey to take William’s arm. “Thank you.” He muttered, pulling himself to his feet. “But… I have to do something. I can’t just sit around.” He rubbed his tender shoulder.

“What do you expect to accomplish, doing all this?” William muttered, making for the kitchen.

“It’s not about expecting, it’s just…” Red sighed, scooping up the bottle of whiskey. He followed William into the kitchen. “You couldn’t understand.” He pinched the bridge of his nose.

“What exactly?” William asked, leaning on the kitchen table.

Red frowned, setting the whiskey on the table. “You’re already as strong as you could be. It’s different.”

William laughed. “You will not believe that if you see me fight one of my elders.”

Red paused, his train of thought completely derailed. “...Is that something you’re planning on?” He asked, finally: William made remarks like this, sometimes, that made Red realise he didn’t understand the first thing about his culture and filled his head with a thousand new questions.

“What are you planning on? Defending me from a street urchin?”

Red took a swig of the whiskey. “I’m not planning on stopping.”

“Why?”

Red paused, considering his words. “I know I’m not as strong as you. I know that. But if something… if something did happen, if you were asleep, or… I don’t know.” He gestured vaguely. “And I could have done something but I wasn’t good enough? And I could have been. It’d kill me.” He paused, taking another sip of the whiskey. “It’d fucking kill me.”

“If someone wants me dead, there is nothing you can do to prevent it.” William said simply. “I have lived longer than you can imagine. Longer than I could have ever imagined. In all that time, I have taken every precaution. I still do. I always will. The longer I live, the less it seems like enough.” William paused to take a breath; he didn’t need to breathe to live, but talking took lungfuls of the stuff. “I don't need you to worry for my sake. You are only human. I once dispatched a hundred men stronger than you simply to demonstrate I could. And I was younger and weaker then. Every one of us has their routine for taming the sun.” He paused. “The only thing that brings fear into my heart is that another vampire wishes me ill, and there is nothing you could do to protect me from that.”

“I can try.” Red shrugged.

“Anyone who could hurt me would be stronger than me. Do you think you could stop me, if I wished you harm?”

“Nope.” Red shrugged again, taking another small sip of whiskey. He’s starting to smile.

“Then please, I beg you, stop putting yourself at risk. Spend more time helping at the school, collect rare plants, take up sculpting. Anything else at all.”

Red sidled up to William, cupping the back of his head to pull him down a little, enough for Red to kiss William’s forehead.

“I take that as a yes?” William murmured, placing a hand on Red’s face.

“I’ll be more careful.”

“Please do. I would never have forgiven myself, if you had fallen, hit your head, and been dispatched by the wolves.” He put his other arm around Red’s waist.

Red licked his lips. “Wolves?”

“They would find you soon enough, my dear.”

“There aren’t any wolves here.” Red repeated, his face tightening as he tried not to laugh. “They have foxes. And tiny weasels.”

“Wolves would be a far more dignified way to go.” He muttered.

“I think I can take the tiny weasels in a fight.” Red grinned, leaning heavily against William, the whiskey hitting him properly now.

“Not if that fall had made you insensible.” He pulled Red close and kissed the top of his head. The thought of Red being seriously injured was finally beginning to hit him. He didn’t like it.

“Yep, that’s how I’ll end up going. Eaten by weasels.” He grinned into William’s chest. “Put that on my tombstone.”

“I don’t intend to do that for a while, yet.”

u/CCC_037 [+1] (a month later)

In my opinion, it's not necessarily important that the audience like William as much as it's important that they don't hate William.

Okay, that's reasonable. Then William needs to be a character that your readers would not hate.

I mean, don't get me wrong, he's not going to continue growing while Red's gone, and he might take some steps back, but he's not like the trope of someone becoming vegetarian because their partner's vegetarian and after a big breakup they go to McDonald's and get a double cheeseburger to stick to them.

Ah - I think there may have been a slight misunderstanding here. When I said that William should show the occasional hint of not much caring about the lives of other humans "when Red steps out of the picture", I didn't mean after Red leaves William in a long-term sense (after William's had some character growth). I meant it as in during the first few chapters, before William has had his character growth, when Red steps temporarily out of the scene (to go get some beer or buy a trunk or whatever), then William should show some signs of not caring for the lives of other humans, on the basis that:

• He doesn't care for them at this point in the story.
• With Red out of sight, William has no reason to pretend to care for the lives of mere humans.

Yes, later in the story, once William has had his character growth, he should retain that growth even when he's alone. But earlier in the story, before that character growth - well, you should probably show a fairly accurate "Before" picture of William's personality, so the audience can see just how much he has grown, later on in the story.

Yes and yes; and that is what I want my story not to do, because any damsel in her right mind would not want to be with the knight at that scene. Add in some more scenes of the knight going "oh damsel, won't you love me?" and her going "not until you learn your manners" and a Beauty and the Beast montage or five later and then I would be OK with it.

Fair enough - that's not the story you want to write. But you can't blame that on your genre; it's a matter of personal preference.

I'm not showing murder, he probably kills a human every two years or so. It is not like he murders three humans before breakfast each morning, you know?

Yeah, he doesn't go around on a killing spree every morning. But, at the same time, he does not care about the lives of average humans, and I do think that that needs to be shown - not necessarily via direct murder, there are a variety of other ways to do it. Some examples:

• William and another vampire notice an ordinary human in mortal peril of some or other sort - not certain death, but something he could perhaps escape. Either of them could easily save him. Instead of doing so, they idly take bets on whether or not he will survive.

• William visits another vampire, who has a bad habit of keeping grisly souvenirs of his various kills - William walks right past dozens of jars of preserved heads without batting an eye (if asked about this, perhaps by a horrified Red, he only comments on the tastelessness of the display)

• William, driving a coach-and-horses, liberally uses his horsewhip on passing foot traffic if it looks like they're going to get in the way of his horses.

That sort of thing. Not deliberate murder necessarily, just - casual disdain for the lives of humans.

Wouldn't that be awkward to show on-screen, though? It's a nice thought, and I did think, "well obviously he wouldn't be ACTUALLY dead, he'd just look dead" - but if Red thought he was dead, then it's almost as bad as William actually doing the murdering because Red should still be shocked/disgusted by the whole thing since he, y'know, thinks it's real.

Hmmm. Good point.

Another option, of course, once the guy is on the roof, is to have him get up again and run for it, leaping rooftop to rooftop into the distance until he can get down someplace where William is not waiting around at ground level. Of course, this cannot be done quietly, so Red would hear him fleeing.

---

[excerpt]

Senses! Senses senses senses!

...having reiterated that very important point, I do think that the dialogue in this piece strikes a nice tone - by this point, they're clearly comfortable enough in each other's presence for a little light banter, even when talking serious topics. (Of course, the real solution is for William to hire Red a private trainer - a good trainer will know how to minimize the chances of injury, and at least if he is training then Red is staying out of other trouble).

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (a month later)

I mean, don't get me wrong, he's not going to continue growing while Red's gone, and he might take some steps back, but he's not like the trope of someone becoming vegetarian because their partner's vegetarian and after a big breakup they go to McDonald's and get a double cheeseburger to stick to them.

Ah - I think there may have been a slight misunderstanding here.

I meant it as in during the first few chapters, before William has had his character growth, when Red steps temporarily out of the scene (to go get some beer or buy a trunk or whatever), then William should show some signs of not caring for the lives of other humans

I've done this, I think I might have even shown you the excerpt I'm thinking of in particular. Here's the start of it (... an excerpt of an excerpt? what a delightful extravagance!)

---

Having had its fill, the vampire tossed the middle-aged woman to the side. She stumbled, falling to the garden path without a noise. She lay there, with the calm of someone who had been through this hundreds of times.

“Don’t stop for politeness’ sake. I am sure that one has at least a pint of blood left in her.” Cassius quipped, sitting at a table. He gave gestured orders at the servants digging up flowers in the garden.

“It has been a long time since I’ve killed someone else’s janissary, your majesty.” William muttered, the inch-long fangs shrinking back into his dentition. He watched as the woman staggered to her feet, gave a small bow, and walked away.

---

Like I said, pretty sure I showed you this scene last month - William and Cassius discuss how William is liking Red, Cassius asks for a duchy in exchange, William relents. If I didn't and you want to read it I can whip out the whole thing - though if is, of course, rather senseless. *bad-um tush*

Fair enough - that's not the story you want to write. But you can't blame [wanting a non-evil Love Interest] on your genre; it's a matter of personal preference.

The genre sucks in many ways, just like the genre of sci-fi sucks because everything goes FTL and the genre of fantasy sucks because people don't use their magic to the fullest potential. Unloveable Love Interests are a regrettable aspect of the pulp romance novel and easily avoidable by not, you know, having a protagonist commit senseless murder.

• William and another vampire notice an ordinary human in mortal peril of some or other sort - not certain death, but something he could perhaps escape. Either of them could easily save him. Instead of doing so, they idly take bets on whether or not he will survive.

I like this. I'm going to have to think of a way to shoe-horn it in. There's a later scene where William and Cassius negotiate before the war starts, I could see Cassius offering a wager and William refusing, and then being relieved when the human in peril survives.

• William visits another vampire, who has a bad habit of keeping grisly souvenirs of his various kills - William walks right past dozens of jars of preserved heads without batting an eye (if asked about this, perhaps by a horrified Red, he only comments on the tastelessness of the display)

Damnit, this won't be able to happen for a while, long enough that William might have grown beyond that level of callousness. Still, a good idea.

• William, driving a coach-and-horses, liberally uses his horsewhip on passing foot traffic if it looks like they're going to get in the way of his horses.

1940's, so he's got a car and driver. Very... graphic image though.

That sort of thing. Not deliberate murder necessarily, just - casual disdain for the lives of humans.

I'll think about William's reactions with general humanity.

Another option, of course, once the guy is on the roof, is to have him get up again and run for it, leaping rooftop to rooftop into the distance until he can get down someplace where William is not waiting around at ground level. Of course, this cannot be done quietly, so Red would hear him fleeing.

I need to discuss with the coauthor exactly what any "William shows Red that he's Great and Powerful" scene would look like, and work out how we'd want it to end. That's a good option; another one I thought of was William leaping and placing the human on the roof, so he's clearly alright but is going to have a hell of a time getting down (... it would seem; of course, being a thrall, he can just jump back down when Red and William are off-screen).

Senses! Senses senses senses! i know i know i know

Of course, the real solution is for William to hire Red a private trainer - a good trainer will know how to minimize the chances of injury, and at least if he is training then Red is staying out of other trouble

You're a genius, you know that? I wonder what 1940s Corsica would have had in the way of... gyms.

Also, we're going to write a scene with Paola, to put her into chapter 2 so she doesn't appear suddenly in chapter 3, but I'm struggling with any way to make it interesting. So we've got two options: 1) try and think of a new and interesting tidbit to drop, or 2) make it short and efficient, or I guess 3), put Paola on the front desk sometimes even though she's the "hotel manager" (actually bodyguard).

At the moment the sketch I have for the scene is:

[William tells Red he will start working for him full time now and Red should resign from the hotel]

[Red enters Paola's office]

Red: Hi. I'm just going to let you know I'm quitting.

Paola: Why?

Red: William has asked me to work for him full time.

Paola: [knowing nod] Ah, yes, we saw he had taken a liking to you.

Red: I'm sorry, it meant a lot that you took a chance on hiring me with my Italian being so bad, but he gave me an offer I can't refuse.

Paola: That's fine. Believe it or not, it happens all the time. When do you want to start?

Red: Well, I told him I'd be there tomorrow night, but I can still see if I can work out a way to man the front desk in between, if you're short.

Paola: I can do the job if it comes to it. Congratulations, you should be proud of the new job.

Red: Thanks.

---

Trying to think of a way to put... like a vampire tidbit in there, or something. Paola was told by Cassius to hire Red, because Cassius noticed Red's talent (likely: one of Cassius's children noticed Red's talent and reported it to Cassius). Paola is a thrall who is "the muscle" during the day for the hotel. She's probably pretty damn old.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (a month later)

I've done this, I think I might have even shown you the excerpt I'm thinking of in particular.

So you have.

I don't recall that particular excerpt-of-an-excerpt (I do recall the scene you mention later, I suspect that the scene you showed me earlier may have been the discussion William and Cassius had after that excerpt-of-an-excerpt), but yes, that was pretty much precisely the sort of scene I was talking about.

If I didn't and you want to read it I can whip out the whole thing - though if is, of course, rather senseless. bad-um tush

Eh, I'd just yell at you about senses again.

just like the genre of sci-fi sucks because everything goes FTL

Some of the best sci-fi I know includes FTL travel. Have you ever read the Chanur series?

There's a later scene where William and Cassius negotiate before the war starts, I could see Cassius offering a wager and William refusing, and then being relieved when the human in peril survives.

Could work to show how much William has grown - and since he hasn't taken the bet, he can even step in to help the human without being accused of cheating, if he doesn't mind a snarky comment from Cassius.

this won't be able to happen for a while, long enough that William might have grown beyond that level of callousness. Still, a good idea.

Then it can be used as an opportunity to show how much William has grown - he gets partway along the corridor, then stops, looks over the decor, and asks himself how come this didn't bother him nearly so much the last time he was here...

---

I need to discuss with the coauthor exactly what any "William shows Red that he's Great and Powerful" scene would look like, and work out how we'd want it to end.

I can no longer see the phrase "Great and Powerful" without thinking of fireworks and ego.

But yeah, that'll probably be worthwhile.

another one I thought of was William leaping and placing the human on the roof, so he's clearly alright but is going to have a hell of a time getting down (... it would seem; of course, being a thrall, he can just jump back down when Red and William are off-screen).

Yeah, that works too!

Trying to think of a way to put... like a vampire tidbit in there, or something.

Hmmm... foreshadowing of some sort, perhaps? Perhaps Paola's in the kitchen, preparing blood pudding with alarming efficiency and showing off her enhanced reactions?

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 months later)

I don't recall that particular excerpt-of-an-excerpt (I do recall the scene you mention later, I suspect that the scene you showed me earlier may have been the discussion William and Cassius had after that excerpt-of-an-excerpt), but yes, that was pretty much precisely the sort of scene I was talking about.

Excellent!!! See, I am one step ahead of you sometimes!

just like the genre of sci-fi sucks because everything goes FTL

Some of the best sci-fi I know includes FTL travel. Have you ever read the Chanur series?

Yep, it's this month's book club book and I've been meaning to post a discussion for it but I got the flu (IN AUTUMN!?!??!) so I was severely confined to bed because I was in too much pain to even watch TV (can you imagine???)

I... didn't really like it, I found parts of it interesting but I think it's too 1980s sci-fi for me. (That said... I loved Dragon's Egg...). I get the feeling it's one of those books where if you read 300,000 words you'll see the majesty of it (my husband's girlfriend's partner is a huge fan of Cherryh and leant me his kindle, I feel bad that I'm gonna have to disappoint him).

But my point in what I was saying was more that, "some genres have tropes that make them suck in various ways", and Romance's equivalent of rubber-forehead aliens, FTL, technobabble, and Future Where Everyone Is Just As Racist and Sexist As Today is the idea of a love interest who is actually terrible.

There's a later scene where William and Cassius negotiate before the war starts, I could see Cassius offering a wager and William refusing, and then being relieved when the human in peril survives.

Could work to show how much William has grown - and since he hasn't taken the bet, he can even step in to help the human without being accused of cheating, if he doesn't mind a snarky comment from Cassius.

Yeah, I'm trying to think what it could be. I have them meeting outside a church (I tried to pick a landmark that would have been around in the 1940s and this worked), so perhaps they could be watching a beggar and Cassius proposes to bet whether anyone will donate to him and William just rolls his eyes, grabs a few weeks' wages out of his pocket, and tosses it into the beggar's cup and then goes "I don't have time for silly games, let's talk business?"... and slip in an earlier scene where Red puts money into a beggar's cup, explaining that sometikmes when he first moved to Rome that's the only way he got to eat...

Trying to think of a way to put... like a vampire tidbit in there, or something.

Hmmm... foreshadowing of some sort, perhaps? Perhaps Paola's in the kitchen, preparing blood pudding with alarming efficiency and showing off her enhanced reactions?

I did more "she seems old", but I wrote it in early draft form and have a pretty bad flu right now (well, it's calmed down enough that I'm up to redditing again), so I'd value your input in terms of content - the flow is crap and has some obvious placeholders, and of course no senses yet. I think coauthor will fix it up in that regard in a few hours, but I think it needs a little more... pizzazz somehow.

---

Red was always nervous speaking to Paola, ever since she first spoke to him. It had been a few months ago [work out timeline: Red fled in January, I think we’re in May?], he had been going door-to-door, offering to do cleaning, building, mending in his awful Italian. But she had approached him, said her hotel needed a night porter urgently, and that she wanted to trial him. He’d been grateful for the opportunity, even if it was coming from a woman who looked to be his younger sister’s age and thus perhaps not experienced enough to run a reputable hotel. Most of all, he’d been intimidated by her: she’d represented stable employment, and he didn’t want to mess things up. He didn’t want to mess this up, now. He knew that if things didn’t work out with William he’d have to try to get his job back, so he wanted to part on good terms.

“Singora Di Pietro?” Red murmured, knocking on her open door. [the office is small, sparsely decorated. It has a window with no curtains - unusual for this hotel as most have blackout curtains - looking out on the piazza with the pantheon. There’s some tall, locked lockers against a wall, and another wall has some crossed ornate swords that Red thinks looks more functional than purely ornate]

“Yes, Mister Rossi?” She spoke to him in English, but, he reflected, their conversations did not feel smooth and comfortable the way his conversations with William did; she gave the subtle impression that he was not worth her time. Not enough to be rude, just an undercurrent of impatience.

Red cleared his throat, and did something with his hands to indicate he was nervous. “I won’t be coming in for work tomorrow. Probably not ever again.”

“Why?” She looked up from the letter she was writing.

“One of the guests has asked me to work as his valet, full-time, so I won’t be able to stay on.”

Paola nodded. “Ah, yes. I had noticed Mister Ryan had taken a liking to you.”

Red felt the hair on the back of his neck stand up; something made him feel exposed, as though the other staff were talking about him behind his back, gossiping in rapid-fire Italian. He knew that couldn’t be the case: moving the furniture, storing the trunk in the cloakroom, those had to have come to her attention.

“I’m sorry,” Red murmured. “It meant a lot, really, an awful lot that you hired me with my Italian being so bad. But he gave me an offer that I can’t refuse.”

“Believe it or not, this is not the first time that such a thing has occurred.” Paola turned her attention back to her letter: she wrote with a quill, another bizarre habit of hers.

“He wants me to start tomorrow night.” Red continued. “But if you’re short, I can work something out with him so I can cover the desk when you need.”

Paola shook her head. “No, Mister Rossi. You are excused. It is a most high acclaim of the quality of our staff when our most discerning clients take such a liking to them.”

Red nodded. “Thank you, Signora Di Pietro.

---

i gave her a quill and that's waaaay too much as quills actually sucked and any quill user would LOVE a pen, so i'll go and replace that with a dip-nib pen or even just give her a fountain pen.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 months later)

Excellent!!! See, I am one step ahead of you sometimes!

Yay.

Yep, it's this month's book club book and I've been meaning to post a discussion for it

...huh. What a coincidence.

but I got the flu (IN AUTUMN!?!??!) so I was severely confined to bed because I was in too much pain to even watch TV (can you imagine???)

Oooof. I hope the fact that you are posting now means you're better...

I... didn't really like it, I found parts of it interesting but I think it's too 1980s sci-fi for me. (That said... I loved Dragon's Egg...). I get the feeling it's one of those books where if you read 300,000 words you'll see the majesty of it (my husband's girlfriend's partner is a huge fan of Cherryh and leant me his kindle, I feel bad that I'm gonna have to disappoint him).

Huh. Personally, I found it really great - though it wasn't the FTL that made it great (the FTL was merely a detail of the setting). What made it great, in my view, was the characterisation of all the different races - and how those characterisations managed to remain coherent and distinct while so often completely subverting expectations that those same characterisations had set up...

It's all about the different races. What they are, how they interact, how they respond to the sudden presence of a new player in the midst of their long-running political stalemate.

FTL is a useful tool in sci-fi. There is bad sci-fi that uses it, but I don't think it is, in itself, a bad trope.

Yeah, I'm trying to think what it could be. I have them meeting outside a church (I tried to pick a landmark that would have been around in the 1940s and this worked), so perhaps they could be watching a beggar and Cassius proposes to bet whether anyone will donate to him and William just rolls his eyes, grabs a few weeks' wages out of his pocket, and tosses it into the beggar's cup and then goes "I don't have time for silly games, let's talk business?"... and slip in an earlier scene where Red puts money into a beggar's cup, explaining that sometikmes when he first moved to Rome that's the only way he got to eat...

That works well! An excellent first showing of empathy.

Bonus point if it happens to be the same beggar. (But if it does, don't call attention to it, just describe him in a similar way...)

Red cleared his throat, and did something with his hands to indicate he was nervous.

Little bit clunky phrasing here. "Red cleared his throat, wringing his hands nervously."

Apart from that - you're not wrong about the need for more pizzazz. My first, most immediate thought is better descriptions, more use of senses. And - that may very well be enough on its own, already.

i gave her a quill and that's waaaay too much as quills actually sucked and any quill user would LOVE a pen, so i'll go and replace that with a dip-nib pen or even just give her a fountain pen.

Does she use a quill because she wants to use a quill, or does she use a quill because her vampire master told her to do so a few decades ago and never rescinded that command yet?

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 months later)

Yep, it's this month's book club book and I've been meaning to post a discussion for it

...huh. What a coincidence.

Not really, I selected it because of your recommendation earlier in this thread.

but I got the flu (IN AUTUMN!?!??!) so I was severely confined to bed because I was in too much pain to even watch TV (can you imagine???)

Oooof. I hope the fact that you are posting now means you're better...

Better enough. I mean, sitting on my butt on reddit doesn't exactly require a lot of health. I'm just garden variety sick, which is a massive improvement.

What made it great, in my view, was the characterisation of all the different races - and how those characterisations managed to remain coherent and distinct while so often completely subverting expectations that those same characterisations had set up...

Yeah, I don't think I read far enough into it to get that from it: 60% into the first book, by the kindle's reckoning (which can sometimes be an under estimate). But as far as I'm concerned, if 60% the way through a book I don't like it, I'm not wasting any more time on it - more likely the author/book/setting is not for me than that I "just need to get to the good part". (Then again: when I recommend people Sense8 I tell them to wait till episode 4 for the payoff, which is 4 hours into a 12 hour TV show, so maybe I'm being a hypocrite. Eh. Whatevs.)

It's all about the different races. What they are, how they interact, how they respond to the sudden presence of a new player in the midst of their long-running political stalemate.

Yeah - I think that's books 2 and 3.

FTL is a useful tool in sci-fi. There is bad sci-fi that uses it, but I don't think it is, in itself, a bad trope.

FTL was maybe a bad specific example to use. Better one: the "robot becomes frankenstein's monster and turns on humanity" trope that Asimov wrote his stories to subvert and ultimately made relatively extinct. Then again, I'm getting dangerously close to comparing myself to Asimov, which I'm sure will go down well.

[begger scene] works well! An excellent first showing of empathy.

Coolio. I'll add it to the list.

Red cleared his throat, and did something with his hands to indicate he was nervous.

Little bit clunky phrasing here. "Red cleared his throat, wringing his hands nervously."

.

the flow is crap and has some obvious placeholders

Yeah... that was one of the "obvious placeholders" I was telling you about. Apparently not as obvious as I thought???

Thanks to Coauthor (who is better than me at bodylanguage anyway), the line now reads:

Red cleared his throat, and began to pick at the skin at the edge of his nails. “I won’t be coming in for work tomorrow. Or after that, for the foreseeable future.”

Apart from that - you're not wrong about the need for more pizzazz. My first, most immediate thought is better descriptions, more use of senses. And - that may very well be enough on its own, already.

I think Coauthor's edits and my expanding on the description just now have made it passable. (Better be passable, it's being posted this weekend!).

---

Red was never comfortable speaking to Paola Di Pietro, right from when he first met her. It had been three months earlier, back when he had been going door-to-door, trying to sell services—cleaning, repairing, mending, anything—in awful Italian that consisted mostly of the word ‘laboro’ (job) and a lot of gesturing. She had approached him in the street, telling him that her hotel needed a porter urgently, and that she was willing to take a gamble on him. He’d been suspicious at first: Paola looked to be his younger sister’s age, with long, impossibly straight blonde hair, smooth skin, and a sharp look in her eyes. What authority could a young woman like her possibly have to hire a hotel porter?

But that day, Red had been knocking on doors for hours; and it was nearly noon and he hadn’t even been able to sweep someone’s floor in exchange for a sandwich. If she was willing to take a gamble on him, then he was more than willing to let her.

And now, after working in her hotel for three months and seeing how perfectly suited this young woman seemed to be to running it, he’d become intimidated by her. Especially now, when he had to resign. He was worried she’d been cross with him, leaving after everything the hotel had invested in him: not just the third-hand uniforms, but the help with the language, the advice that Adelina had given him in how to lift things without hurting his back. He knew that if things didn’t work out with William he’d have to try to get his job back, and it wasn’t a bridge he wanted to burn. Or smoulder even slightly.

“Singora Di Pietro?” Red murmured, knocking on her open door. Her office was small, sparsely decorated; tall, metal lockers that were never opened dominated one of the walls. A pair of crossed swords hung on one of the other walls, glinting in the electric light. Red had always felt intimidated by those swords: they almost looked as though they had been placed there so they could be pulled off in a fight. Unlike the ones in the trunk store yesterday, these swords were practical, with sturdy handles and blades that looked like they had been kept sharp enough to glide through a man’s rib cage.

Finally, there was the window: it took up the whole of the back wall and showed the vertical columns of the pantheon illuminated in the moonlight. This was, to Red, the oddest part of the entire room: the window was not only unobscured but completely bare, not even sporting a curtain rod above the frame. Every other window in the hotel had shutters and layers upon layers of thick black curtains, but this one had no way to block out the sun’s glare.

“Yes, Mister Rossi?” She spoke to him in English, not even looking up from the letter she was writing. She normally spoke English to him, one of the few people he met who did, but they were still the most uncomfortable conversations he had. She was never rude with him, but something about how she spoke always made him feel like he was interrupting something.

Red cleared his throat, and began to pick at the skin at the edge of his nails. “I won’t be coming in for work tomorrow. Or after that, for the foreseeable future.”

That was enough to make her look up. “Why?”

“One of the guests has asked me to work as his valet, full-time, so I won’t have time to stay on as a porter.”

Paola nodded, tapping her finger nail against her teeth. He wondered if it hurt. “Ah, yes. I had noticed Mister Ryan had taken a… liking to you.”

Red felt an unpleasant shiver down his spine, run down his back and into his belly where it coiled like a snake. He felt scrutinised, like he was missing something, like the  other staff were talking about him behind his back, gossiping in rapid-fire Italian they knew he couldn’t understand even if he overheard. He knew that it couldn’t have gone without notice: speaking to William so often, moving the furniture, the trunk, those things had to have come to their attention. She had once noticed he was missing a button on his shirt even though the button would have been tucked in anyway. Nothing got past her, not in her hotel.

“I’m sorry,” Red murmured. “It meant a lot, really, an awful lot that you hired me considering everything. But he gave me an offer that I can’t refuse.”

“Believe it or not, this is not the first time. It is a most high acclaim of the quality of our staff when our most discerning clients take such a liking to them.” Paola turned her attention back to her letter.

Red had never heard her compliment him—or, well, anyone—before, and wasn’t quite sure how to respond. “He wants me to start tomorrow night.” He said, deciding to act as though he didn’t find it odd. “But if you’re short, I can try to work something out with him so I can cover the desk when you need.”

Paola shook her head. “No, Mister Rossi. You are excused.”

Red nodded, his chest almost deflating with relief. “Thank you, Signora Di Pietro.”

She waved him off, not even looking up to see him leave.

---

i gave her a quill and that's waaaay too much as quills actually sucked and any quill user would LOVE a pen, so i'll go and replace that with a dip-nib pen or even just give her a fountain pen.

Does she use a quill because she wants to use a quill, or does she use a quill because her vampire master told her to do so a few decades ago and never rescinded that command yet?

I love that idea, but I think the passage is now strong enough that she doesn't need to seem weird by having a quill, so I've just removed the reference to the type of pen. Phew!

I thought about putting more sensuous language, but I'm not sure where that should go: the "flashback" is a bit too long for my taste as it is, as it's meant to be a quick "she found me in my time of need" sort of acknowledgement, and I think the description of the room is about as long as the rest of the conversation as it is...

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 months later)

Not really, I selected it because of your recommendation earlier in this thread.

Ah. I had forgotten that I'd already recommended it. But I tend to recommend it often.

Better enough. I mean, sitting on my butt on reddit doesn't exactly require a lot of health. I'm just garden variety sick, which is a massive improvement.

But you're showing steady improvement, right?

Yeah, I don't think I read far enough into it to get that from it: 60% into the first book, by the kindle's reckoning (which can sometimes be an under estimate).

Myself, I quite enjoyed the first book - I do like a good adventure story. (Book One is one story. Books Two, Three and Four are the second story, and that's the big one. Book Five is one story, a sort of an epilogue). I do think that the first story is probably the weakest of the three, but nonetheless, I thoroughly enjoyed it. (The first story is not really all that different, in tone, to the ones that follow it...)

FTL was maybe a bad specific example to use. Better one: the "robot becomes frankenstein's monster and turns on humanity" trope that Asimov wrote his stories to subvert and ultimately made relatively extinct.

Have you ever read Asimov's short story, "...That Thou Art Mindful Of Him"?

There are no tropes that are so terrible that no good story can possibly use them; though there are some tropes that it is very easy to use badly, which earns them a bad reputation.

Yeah... that was one of the "obvious placeholders" I was telling you about. Apparently not as obvious as I thought???

Whooops. I thought the "obvious placeholders" were the bits in square brackets only.

[excerpt]

It is a lot better now, yes. I think that the description of the room is necessary - readers need to be able to see the scene in their heads, and the more you dress up the scene the better their ideas of it will match with yours.

(On the other hand, you don't want to overdo it. It's a delicate balance.)

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 months later)

But you're showing steady improvement, right?

Still sick, but yeah, improved from yesterday. I'm going through pain medicine like crazy (ibuprofen/paracetemol), and by like crazy I mean "in exactly the quantities my doctor recommended and no more because i don't want to damage my liver i'm not some sort of damn idiot".

Myself, I quite enjoyed the first book - I do like a good adventure story.

Yeah, I don't think it was for me, or possibly it's a timing thing: I started watching Stargate about 15 years ago, and I know if I saw my first episode today I'd think it was stupid. But instead I idly think to myself that Jack and Daniel are OTP and wonder if we'll ever get that damn reboot.

Have you ever read Asimov's short story, "...That Thou Art Mindful Of Him"?

Yep, it was a different take than the usual though. Subverting the trope. You can definitely subvert tropes, that's fun and good.

Great - now I want to find a list of romance tropes to subvert - okay here's one and it's long maybe not http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LoveTropes - I know, I'll just search for gay and see how I'm doing, trope-wise

I'm probably playing into this one a bit, though the closet means different things to each of them.

This one no, I don't think so, though I guess that's in the eye of the beholder. There's no "quivering member" scenes but a few "kiss then fade to black" scenes, maybe too many for some peoples' tastes.

We've tried not to fall for this one since it's so pervasive, but I'm sure somebody would try to put Red and William into the boxes. But each of them has "feminine" traits (Red: short, young, inexperienced, no power/William: cares about his appearance, obsessed with social reputation, more passive in the relationship) and "masculine" traits (Red: army, strong, manly job, strong sense of honour/discipline/William: vampire strength, ego).

Whooops. I thought the "obvious placeholders" were the bits in square brackets only.

Nope... how about from now on you just assume that anything terrible I write is an obvious placeholder, thus making me a perfect writer!

(and for the hands thing - Coauthor writes Red a lot and I knew he'd do something with his hands but not what, so I wrote that specifically to alert her to the fact that she should write something in there).

It is a lot better now, yes. I think that the description of the room is necessary - readers need to be able to see the scene in their heads, and the more you dress up the scene the better their ideas of it will match with yours.

I think there are a lot of rooms/scenes that are used more that don't get that much treatment, but I also think that describing Paola's room really gets you into her head and sets up her next appearance. The swords are in case she needs to defend the hotel patrons on short notice. The lockers contain guns that appear later on (if she needs them in an emergency, she'll just rip the lockers open, natch). The window is her own big personal "fuck you i can sit in the sun" to vampirekind - maybe I should write that there's a place above the window where the curtainrod had been ripped out. But she's meticulous so she would have painted over it, probably. She only appears once more and then vanishes forever, so she probably needs the little bit of personality.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 months later)

Still sick, but yeah, improved from yesterday. I'm going through pain medicine like crazy (ibuprofen/paracetemol), and by like crazy I mean "in exactly the quantities my doctor recommended and no more because i don't want to damage my liver i'm not some sort of damn idiot".

Sounds good, then!

Great - now I want to find a list of romance tropes to subvert - okay here's one and it's long maybe not http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LoveTropes - I know, I'll just search for gay and see how I'm doing, trope-wise

Soooooo.... the central, defining feature of your character's romance is the homosexuality?

Nope... how about from now on you just assume that anything terrible I write is an obvious placeholder, thus making me a perfect writer!

So, if an entire excerpt is made entirely of placeholders, then...

describing Paola's room really gets you into her head and sets up her next appearance.

Another excellent reason to describe it, yes!

But let's see what else it's possible to get from that room.

Swords are an elegant weapon, not as clumsy and random as a blaster. Clearly, Paola used to be an officer in the Roman army (I think officers around the time of the World Wars would still traditionally wear swords? Not sure.)

Those locked boxes could contain anything. War memorabilia? Old letters? Military secrets?

And then, of course, there's that giant window without even an attempt to create fake blackout curtains. Wasn't it the law in Rome during war that all windows had to have blackout curtains, so as not to provide a target for passing bombers? If she doesn't even pretend to be following that law, then she clearly must have highly-placed contacts in the legal system, willing to turn a blind eye.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 months later)

Soooooo.... the central, defining feature of your character's romance is the homosexuality?

Certainly isn't, but it was the thing I could search for on tvtropes that would be guaranteed to be relevant (except only half the gay tropes were relevant IIRC... so maybe I should have done my other idea of "randomly" opening 5-10 tabs)

So, if an entire excerpt is made entirely of placeholders, then...

Very funny

But let's see what else it's possible to get from that room.

Swords are an elegant weapon, not as clumsy and random as a blaster.

The blasters that are clearly littering the countryside in 1944? But no, I figure a vampire is more readily hurt by a sword than by a gun, since you can dismember them that way.

Clearly, Paola used to be an officer in the Roman army (I think officers around the time of the World Wars would still traditionally wear swords? Not sure.)

A woman? Who looks scarcely nineteen at that? No, it must be her father who was in the army. She probably only inherited the place after he died a heroic death in battle.

Those locked boxes could contain anything. War memorabilia? Old letters? Military secrets?

Or just the valuables left in storage by hotel guests. After all, you can't expect your discerning clientele to leave certain things in the cloakroom. I mean, really?

And then, of course, there's that giant window without even an attempt to create fake blackout curtains. Wasn't it the law in Rome during war that all windows had to have blackout curtains, so as not to provide a target for passing bombers? If she doesn't even pretend to be following that law, then she clearly must have highly-placed contacts in the legal system, willing to turn a blind eye.

Or she's... very much NOT the patriotic sort. Maybe on account of her father dying in that war? I wonder if blackout curtains were a thing in Rome: if it was an open city, you wouldn't expect the Allies to bomb it. If I cared more I'd use my rudimentary Italian bootstrapped by my good French and go into google.it and see if I could find any info about that sort of thing - it's how I managed to work out what a night porter with a murky might get paid (40% of the median wage, rounded down to a round number, if I recall...)

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 months later)

Certainly isn't, but it was the thing I could search for on tvtropes that would be guaranteed to be relevant (except only half the gay tropes were relevant IIRC... so maybe I should have done my other idea of "randomly" opening 5-10 tabs)

What about 'vampire'? (Yes, there are two, at least one of which applies...)

The blasters that are clearly littering the countryside in 1944?

Oh, don't mind me, I was just slipping in a Star Wars reference.

But you're right, swords would work better against vampires - unless you have golden bullets, or wooden ones, guns aren't going to do more than annoy them and tell them where you are. But if you behead a vampire, that at least gives you a few minutes in which to run.

A woman? Who looks scarcely nineteen at that? No, it must be her father who was in the army.

Oooh! You're right. Maybe an uncle instead of a father, but yes, she must surely have inherited this room from someone.

Or just the valuables left in storage by hotel guests.

Also a possibility - right up until someone actually leaves valuables with her, and she locks them in the heavy safe in the basement (or wherever).

I wonder if blackout curtains were a thing in Rome: if it was an open city, you wouldn't expect the Allies to bomb it.

I went and [looked it up](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackout_(wartime)) - apparently it was a big thing in England. Less so in the rest of the world, but it was applied in some other places (and apparently should have been applied in certain coastal cities earlier than it was, because ships show up to submarines like anything if there are city lights behind the ship). Though its ability to mess with the navigation of incoming planes is apparently somewhat disputed; to the extent that, in a lot of places, it was introduced mainly to keep the population fired up about the war...

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 months later)

What about 'vampire'? (Yes, there are two, at least one of which applies...)

Yeah, "I love you, vampire son" happens in volume 3, so expect to read excerpts from it in 5 years time... Vampire-werewolf love triangle: I'm not ruling anything out, but the story doesn't have the archetypical "vampire/werewolf rivalry that burns hot". Werewolves mostly stick to themselves.

Now I've just gone and taken a bunch of "random" romance tropes (by scrolling through the tvtropes list and opening a bunch of them at random), and I'm gonna look at them:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AdrenalineMakeover : Red's full arc is maybe like this, but he actually becomes Kinder and Softer overall, as does William. Red starts out more aggressive than William, relative to their station: William knows that discretion is the better part of valor, whereas Red has yet to learn that lesson.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AngerBornOfWorry : Not really, no.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BestHerToBedHer : Lol, no

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BreakHisHeartToSaveHim : This is stupid and manipulative and denies people their own agency. Hard pass.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CartwrightCurse : No :(

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DidYouJustRomanceCthulhu : Um, in Present Day, someone falls in love with Julias and may or may not try to bed him in his Big Scary Demon Form, but that's not quite there.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FateDrivesUsTogether : Nope. William just buys Red and then goes to visit him. None of it is coincidental.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HookedUpAfterwards : This will probably happen with a variety of characters, including Julias's aforementioned romance (though... he does go through a breakup in the meantime).

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LetsJustBeFriends : There is of course a Climactic Breakup, but nobody is trying to promise friendship, really. It does kind of happen because William sends Red letters, though. So half point?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThePromposal : There is no prom. I don't even know if there'll be a marriage proposal, and if there is it won't be a Big Romantic Gesture. Well, maybe it will. Vampires Are Weird.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YourCheatingHeart : Does not apply.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WackyMarriageProposal : See promposal.

So, looks like vampire and gay tropes apply better, overall, to the story. So that's something.

But you're right, swords would work better against vampires - unless you have golden bullets, or wooden ones, guns aren't going to do more than annoy them and tell them where you are. But if you behead a vampire, that at least gives you a few minutes in which to run.

Yeah, and I think Paola would have some golden bullets in her armory, but she's stronger than most young vampires due to Cassius's extreme age (rule of thumb: ghoul is as strong as a vampire 10% the age of their master), so those are really only if one of the older patrons has a problem. She might not even know they're gold specifically: I think the gold thing is probably going to come out to the vampire hunting public sometime in the 70s or 80s or 90s, or maybe start spreading due to the events of volume 2. After all, secrets don't keep forever.

Also a possibility - right up until someone actually leaves valuables with her, and she locks them in the heavy safe in the basement (or wherever).

Depends who they are and how valuable they are: I imagine one of the lockers, at least, has the "most valuable" items from their "most important" guests.

Though its ability to mess with the navigation of incoming planes is apparently somewhat disputed; to the extent that, in a lot of places, it was introduced mainly to keep the population fired up about the war...

That makes sense. There was a lot of extreme encouragement of patrotism during WW2 (duh), so yeah. Apparently even the coast of the USA did it????

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 months later)

AdrenalineMakeover : Red's full arc is maybe like this, but he actually becomes Kinder and Softer overall, as does William. Red starts out more aggressive than William, relative to their station: William knows that discretion is the better part of valor, whereas Red has yet to learn that lesson.

I think that, in order to qualify for this trope, Red has to at some point take off his glasses while letting his hair down. And make permanent changes to his wardrobe.

FateDrivesUsTogether : Nope. William just buys Red and then goes to visit him. None of it is coincidental.

This might count as a thoroughly Defied Trope, then?

She might not even know they're gold specifically:

Make the bullets electrum - that's a naturally-occurring silver/gold alloy. This way they work as required, yet at the same time Cassius can tell her it's due to the silver in the alloy, and voila, secret maintained.

Well, for a few decades longer, at least.

Depends who they are and how valuable they are: I imagine one of the lockers, at least, has the "most valuable" items from their "most important" guests.

...that would make sense.

That makes sense. There was a lot of extreme encouragement of patrotism during WW2 (duh), so yeah. Apparently even the coast of the USA did it????

It seems that the east coast of the USA actually had more reason to do it than most places. They didn't have to worry about airstrikes, but their ships did have to worry about German submarines. Now, a ship in the middle of the night that's running no lights is next to impossible to see at any distance, and can thus avoid being noticed by submarines - unless there's a nice, bright, well-lit cityscape behind the ship, in which case the submarine just needs to shoot at the big dark thing that keeps moving in front of the lights.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 months later)

I think that, in order to qualify for this trope, Red has to at some point take off his glasses while letting his hair down. And make permanent changes to his wardrobe.

Well, because Red's going to be living for another 60+ years, his wardrobe will be changing out of necessity if nothing else.

FateDrivesUsTogether : Nope. William just buys Red and then goes to visit him. None of it is coincidental.

This might count as a thoroughly Defied Trope, then?

Maybe not: fate drove them together because they both were involved in the hotel (that I just now realised is called, appropriately, "hotel of the sun" in Italian, which was completely not intentional, I was just trying to find an old hotel in Rome).

Then again, the characters have to meet somehow, so I guess by definition you need a bit of fate.

Make the bullets electrum - that's a naturally-occurring silver/gold alloy. This way they work as required, yet at the same time Cassius can tell her it's due to the silver in the alloy, and voila, secret maintained.

That's true: why electrum over pure silver, though? Is it cheaper? Easier to get? Maybe vampires have a fake superstition about dealing with pure silver....

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 months later)

Maybe not: fate drove them together because they both were involved in the hotel

Wasn't that because Cassius was trying to scam William out of a duchy that he forced them together, though? So, not even fate on that level.

That's true: why electrum over pure silver, though? Is it cheaper? Easier to get? Maybe vampires have a fake superstition about dealing with pure silver....

Well, we both know what the real reason is. Cassius can make up any false reason he wants - maybe he'll claim he has a contact who makes electrum bullets super cheap or whatever. (He probably does have such a contact, but doesn't mention that he helped the contact decide to set up the business).

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 months later)

Wasn't that because Cassius was trying to scam William out of a duchy that he forced them together, though?

Hmm, never thought how "long" a game Cassius is playing. If he does want to get a controlling stake in William's kingdom, then it does make sense for him to put a juicy human in William's view (maybe he's been doing this for decades, and Red was the one who stuck).

Probably Cassius is playing a generic long game: he staffs his hotel with humans he thinks his vampire friends would like, and then tries to make sure people with stuff he wants have reason to visit Rome.

Cassius can make up any false reason he wants - maybe he'll claim he has a contact who makes electrum bullets super cheap or whatever.

Also, probably the reason Paola is one of Cassius's favourite humans is because she does not ask a lot of questions.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 months later)

Probably Cassius is playing a generic long game: he staffs his hotel with humans he thinks his vampire friends would like, and then tries to make sure people with stuff he wants have reason to visit Rome.

That seems likely, yes. He sets things up that have negligible cost but a chance of large benefits - and he does so often enough that those large benefits turn up fairly regularly.

Also, probably the reason Paola is one of Cassius's favourite humans is because she does not ask a lot of questions.

Yep! He asks for a lot of blind obedience and blind trust, but he won't deliberately sabotage his own people and generally looks after them.

If for no other reason than that it's such a bother finding suitable replacements.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 months later)

That seems likely, yes. He sets things up that have negligible cost but a chance of large benefits - and he does so often enough that those large benefits turn up fairly regularly.

Yeah - at this point he probably has a bunch of children who have some sense of loyalty to him, and as many ghouls as he can manage (about 5 or 6). A bunch of his children are stationed in duchies of his allies all through the world, and if there's ever a city he wants, he'll spend 100-200 years getting his children in position, then challenge the Monarch of the area for control. Truth be told, it's probably how he got Rome; or perhaps he just decided he wanted it in the power vacuum caused by The Catastrophe and nobody bothered to challenge him. Or maybe he had it since before Then, and that's how he got it. Who knows.

If for no other reason than that it's such a bother finding suitable replacements.

It so is. When you're an old vampire, a thrall takes a good two or three years to reach peak strength. Much more convenient to keep them alive, keep them happy enough that they won't pick at the edges of their obedience to try and get released (by the sweet embrace of death if nothing else), and to keep some of them keen with vague promises of immortality (which only rarely eventuate).

Actually, there's a question: Cassius seems to have a lot of kids (maybe I'll change his title from The Wolf to The Sea-Turtle or something that is a similar r-selected species...). I wonder what his criteria is? Like, does he use his psychic cult and turn the most brainwashed cultists so they'll be loyal to him, even as vampires? Does he use his most devoted/interesting thralls? Does he do that vampire trope of turning people who he's in love with (except I don't want to make that shit common, so probably nixed straight away...)

Likely it's from his cult, and perhaps he does it as favours to vampires he's friends with who like a particular human's appearance or moxy or similar and want to turn them into a vampire.

Who knows, maybe vampires have something similar to the really disturbing website that counted down until Emma Watson turned 18, in that they have a human they like aesthetically but it'd be "wrong" to kiss them until they turned vampire, so there are some weird vampires around the place who will turn your objects of desire into vampires so you can socially acceptably kiss them???

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 months later)

Yeah - at this point he probably has a bunch of children who have some sense of loyalty to him, and as many ghouls as he can manage (about 5 or 6). A bunch of his children are stationed in duchies of his allies all through the world, and if there's ever a city he wants, he'll spend 100-200 years getting his children in position, then challenge the Monarch of the area for control. Truth be told, it's probably how he got Rome; or perhaps he just decided he wanted it in the power vacuum caused by The Catastrophe and nobody bothered to challenge him. Or maybe he had it since before Then, and that's how he got it. Who knows.

Of course, other vampires his age or older probably have similar long-range planning abilities - even if they don't always approach things in the same manner.

and to keep some of them keen with vague promises of immortality (which only rarely eventuate).

The promise is probably more along the lines of "immortality as long as you obey me", with the unspoken but nonetheless clearly expressed rider of "death the moment you stop obeying me" - which probably happens fairly often, at least for a few decades at a time, if only because it's easier to keep a working thrall alive than going to the bother of training a new one. (Actually Turning them practically never happens, of course).

I wonder what his criteria is? Like, does he use his psychic cult and turn the most brainwashed cultists so they'll be loyal to him, even as vampires? Does he use his most devoted/interesting thralls? Does he do that vampire trope of turning people who he's in love with (except I don't want to make that shit common, so probably nixed straight away...)

Hmmm... I imagine that depends on the situation. If he's putting them in someone else's territory, then it has to be someone who completely despises the vampire whose territory he's been put in on a personal level (helps keep their loyalty to him from being usurped).

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 months later)

Of course, other vampires his age or older probably have similar long-range planning abilities - even if they don't always approach things in the same manner.

True... it's probably how William got New Holland in the first place. He didn't like the overcrowding that was happening after the Catastrophe and decided to get in on that Terra Australis everyone else was going to. Of course, they had local vampires there, so he probably had to drive them out and/or start out relatively lowly on the totem pole and/or befriend and backstab them.

(I sort of realised that even though Australia is a white country, the vampires who were in Australia when it got colonised would obviously be from local stock, and I kind of realised it's pretty weird to have vampires being colonial just the same as white people, so I'm trying to fudge around that a bit...)

"immortality as long as you obey me"

that's a good point even though you were making it on thralls - a vampire is much stronger than its children by definition (because of the age gap), so a vampire child, even if not magically bound to obey, is going to be practically more bound to obey partially because vampires have weird sets of rules (which are partially invented to keep children on their toes) and they have nobody else to go to / etc than their parent. (Sire? I should come up with some terminology for vampire offspring/parents... I was trying out "issue" at one point but I think that's lame.)

If he's putting them in someone else's territory, then it has to be someone who completely despises the vampire whose territory he's been put in on a personal level

haha i'm imagining volume 3 coming around and Cassius chucking one of his kids in William's territory, and it's someone who just hates... either William specifically or like blonde men or something. Or just has been told vicious rumours about William (all of them actual rumours, of course, just rumours that most vampires know not to believe).

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 months later)

(I sort of realised that even though Australia is a white country, the vampires who were in Australia when it got colonised would obviously be from local stock, and I kind of realised it's pretty weird to have vampires being colonial just the same as white people, so I'm trying to fudge around that a bit...)

Alright, wait. Wait wait wait. There is an important point to make here.

Vampires have been around a lot loner than human history and thus are represented in all modern racial groups. Thus, colonial humans would have met native populations that included vampires.

Think on this a minute. The vampire is stronger, faster, smarter than an average human, functionally immune to most weapons, and next to immortal. They might not much care about humans on average, but they are going to care about large disruptions to their food supply.

How could any colonialism in any land manage to succeed, unless the colonists included vampires from the start?

a vampire is much stronger than its children by definition (because of the age gap), so a vampire child, even if not magically bound to obey, is going to be practically more bound to obey

Not just his sire, the same goes for all Elder Vampires. (Actually, that implies that a young vampire can disobey his sire with impunity, as long as he can find an equally-powerful Elder Vampire to act as his 'sponsor', supporting his efforts and protecting him from his sire).

(Sire? I should come up with some terminology for vampire offspring/parents... I was trying out "issue" at one point but I think that's lame.)

'Sire" is good for the parent. I've seen that used before, elsewhere.

haha i'm imagining volume 3 coming around and Cassius chucking one of his kids in William's territory, and it's someone who just hates... either William specifically or like blonde men or something. Or just has been told vicious rumours about William (all of them actual rumours, of course, just rumours that most vampires know not to believe).

Or he's just really, really irritated by the way William taps his fingers while he speaks, or by William's accent, or William's habit of wearing red ties.

Even better, all of the above.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 months later)

The vampire is stronger, faster, smarter than an average human, functionally immune to most weapons, and next to immortal. They might not much care about humans on average, but they are going to care about large disruptions to their food supply.

I think a native vampire is not going to mind unless they care a lot about the native human culture, or they have a particularly well-honed cult around them. I mean, look at it from their point of view: you've got a group of humans you eat from and you live your leisurely vampire life. Suddenly, a bunch of people in ships and funny clothes show up. They can't possibly harm you - sure, they can harm your humans, but humans are fungible. They bring with them more people, which is great for you, and probably some technology or whatever that the vampire might enjoy (even if it's just literature).

There probably are vampires who are benevolent masters of their human herds, and they'd try to fight the colonists off, but the general rule I'd imagine would be "more humans? yum!".

How could any colonialism in any land manage to succeed, unless the colonists included vampires from the start?

Probably vampires were a "worldwide force" before colonialism happened. They can turn into bats, after all, so they'd be able to travel around the world and they certainly had the time to do so. So I'd imagine that outside some really remote islands, vampires would spread throughout the world pretty well: younger vampires would be more "local stock" and older vampires would be more likely to be diverse, since ageing gives you access to Bat Form and thus unfettered travel. Though the more isolated the location, the more likely the Monarchs are going to be from local stock because there's less competition for them.

Has an odd corollary: imagine Australia, before European colonisation. ~1 million inhabitants, which works out to be 3-10 vampires depending on density. Now, Australia has ~20 million, so 60-200 vampires. I'd imagine that vampires care more about areas the more densely populated they are, so in early European settlement, vampires might not want to go there that much, but now, in the Present Day, with 3 or 4 decently large cities, vampires might want to displace the existing owners. I don't know if I'm communicating this well, but what I'm visualising is after humans invade a new land, vampires don't give a shit about it for a few generations. So there's two "waves" of colonialism: the first wave where the humans displace the native humans, and a second wave where vampires displace the native vampires as the locations become more desirable.

So probably William displaced some younger vampire (say, 200 years old), but that young vampire remained in the territory - I'd imagine William would give her a Duchy. The rest of Australia probably had one or two old native vampires and an assortment of youngsters. The old ones either kept/defended their lands or were displaced. Maybe the convenience of ships meant that some of the native vampires decided to see the world.

(Actually, that implies that a young vampire can disobey his sire with impunity, as long as he can find an equally-powerful Elder Vampire to act as his 'sponsor', supporting his efforts and protecting him from his sire).

True; so sires would very closely limit the contact their progeny has with anyone more powerful than them. And more powerful vampires would try and sneak in to get with rival progeny, as young vampires can go out in the sun, making them particularly dangerous to their makers.

Let's think on terminology:

Sire & progeny is the most vampire-y

I kind of want something like "pup" or "cub". Just something that is a bit different. But being different for the sake of being different is not great. I do think "cub" has a connotation that is less respectful than progeny, which I like. Sire works for animals so it doesn't seem out of place with a counterpart like "cub" but has a much more important tone of respect.

Or he's just really, really irritated by ... William's habit of wearing red ties

"Seriously your majesty! I know the shades of red have different meanings, but why do you always do red whenever you possibly could??? I mean, why not try, instead of pale red for 'respect for a youngster', try something like turquoise for 'acknowledgement of the agency of the youth'? It's pretty much the same thing but you can stop looking like a fuckin' cartoon character."

...or something.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 months later)

I mean, look at it from their point of view: you've got a group of humans you eat from and you live your leisurely vampire life. Suddenly, a bunch of people in ships and funny clothes show up. They can't possibly harm you - sure, they can harm your humans, but humans are fungible. They bring with them more people, which is great for you, and probably some technology or whatever that the vampire might enjoy (even if it's just literature).

That's all well and good, until each New Person kills a dozen or so Old People, on average and you end up with Less People overall. You end up having to either force the New People to stop short of murder (slavery, yes, murder no) or forcibly take apart the New People until the point where they can no longer threaten the Old People.

Probably vampires were a "worldwide force" before colonialism happened.

Given how long they've been entwined in human history, that makes sense. (I'm not sure they can cross an ocean in a night as a bat... but they can certainly be part of the original colonists, especially in a ship which has a sun-proof room).

Has an odd corollary: imagine Australia, before European colonisation. ~1 million inhabitants, which works out to be 3-10 vampires depending on density. Now, Australia has ~20 million, so 60-200 vampires. I'd imagine that vampires care more about areas the more densely populated they are, so in early European settlement, vampires might not want to go there that much, but now, in the Present Day, with 3 or 4 decently large cities, vampires might want to displace the existing owners.

Yeah... that all makes sense. I'm just thinking that, if there were native vampires and no colonising vampires, then there would now be a higher percentage of the original native population still around - instead of having around 3% Aboriginals, Australia might have - I don't know - 10%? 30%? It depends how many settlers came, and how quickly their technology would have spread to the natives when the vampires were making sure no-one got genocided, and perhaps even chased some settlers away if they were too trigger-happy...

So probably William displaced some younger vampire (say, 200 years old), but that young vampire remained in the territory - I'd imagine William would give her a Duchy. The rest of Australia probably had one or two old native vampires and an assortment of youngsters. The old ones either kept/defended their lands or were displaced. Maybe the convenience of ships meant that some of the native vampires decided to see the world.

....yeah, that all makes sense, too. It doesn't really change the modern vampire situation all that much.

True; so sires would very closely limit the contact their progeny has with anyone more powerful than them. And more powerful vampires would try and sneak in to get with rival progeny, as young vampires can go out in the sun, making them particularly dangerous to their makers.

More sneakiness and subterfuge!

Let's think on terminology:

Why not take both? Sire & progeny when you're being formal, but elder vampires will often call their progeny 'pup' or 'cub' because elder vampires don't have to be formal all the time.

(Progeny call the elder vampires Sire all the time, because they do have to be polite and formal).

[shades of red]

Yeah, something like that...

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 months later)

That's all well and good, until each New Person kills a dozen or so Old People, on average and you end up with Less People overall.

That's a pretty rare case though, I think usually the overall population increases during colonial events, localised conflicts excepted?

(I'm not sure they can cross an ocean in a night as a bat... but they can certainly be part of the original colonists, especially in a ship which has a sun-proof room).

Vampires don't need to cross the ocean in a night as a bat: they can tie heavy rocks around their necks and walk along the bottom. They don't need to breathe, after all. (Made me realise that they probably had their own transatlantic telegraph before the humans did...)

I'm just thinking that, if there were native vampires and no colonising vampires, then there would now be a higher percentage of the original native population still around - instead of having around 3% Aboriginals, Australia might have - I don't know - 10%? 30%? It depends how many settlers came, and how quickly their technology would have spread to the natives when the vampires were making sure no-one got genocided, and perhaps even chased some settlers away if they were too trigger-happy...

Maybe Australia has a 3% indigenous population instead of a 0.3% indigenous population because of the vampire influence?

Why not take both? Sire & progeny when you're being formal, but elder vampires will often call their progeny 'pup' or 'cub' because elder vampires don't have to be formal all the time.

True. I am thinking about this exchange in particular:

“What I do with my janissaries is my business.” William smiled. “Now, what did you want in exchange?”

“Do you have some land one of my children[progeny?] could rule?”

“You know I have plenty; it’s prey that’s the problem. Does this child [Does your progeny?] keep janissaries sustainably?”

“You’re one to judge!”

“I make my home in a city of three hundred and fifty thousand. I have more than enough. The town I am thinking of has perhaps ten thousand.”

“That should be fine for a youngster [cub?].”

Put my proposed updates in square brackets. I've realised that "progeny" doesn't really work as a singular noun though, it feels plural. Also that I really don't like Cassius using the word "youngster" and I think this is probably a fine place to put a slang word like cub in...

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 months later)

That's a pretty rare case though, I think usually the overall population increases during colonial events, localised conflicts excepted?

Brief research on Google and Wikipedia tells me that, in the case of Australia, colonisation coincided with about a ninety percent drop in Aboriginal population - due to a mix of such things as war, new diseases, and chasing the aboriginals away from all the good natural resources. Even today, total Aboriginal population is sitting at around 650 000, which is a bit of a drop from the 1.25 million upper estimate pre-British arrival.

There's more total people in Australia now, yes. But take a look at this page here, which claims to show the population of Australia over time. Now, given the low humbers in the early parts of the graph, I think it's safe to guess that they're only using the verified population of Australia - i.e. those the various governments at the time recorded as citizens and counted in censuses. I.e. not including the no doubt unregistered aboriginals in those early years.

Looking at that chart, it probably took seventy, maybe eighty years from colonisation for the mixed population to climb back to where it had been. Now, perhaps a vampire won't mind seventy to eighty very lean years, but that does seem like something that would bother them, especially while it was happening...

Vampires don't need to cross the ocean in a night as a bat: they can tie heavy rocks around their necks and walk along the bottom. They don't need to breathe, after all. (Made me realise that they probably had their own transatlantic telegraph before the humans did...)

Hmmm. A valid point. It would seem rather boring, but it's probably better than hanging out within reach of the Elder Vampire that you accidentally insulted...

The real trick will be keeping track of time well enough that you don't come up on the other end twenty minutes before the local dawn. (Sealife will be a bother, but at least it'll give the vampire some blood if it tries to eat him). The other trick is not to get lost and miss the continent you were aiming for...

Maybe Australia has a 3% indigenous population instead of a 0.3% indigenous population because of the vampire influence?

...huh. Fair enough, I guess.

[what to call a vampire's 'children']

His scions, perhaps? Though I like 'cub' in that last sentence; I think it helps to emphasise the relative status of Cassius and his child.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 months later)

colonisation coincided with about a ninety percent drop in Aboriginal population

Over 112 years, it's not like it happened overnight. How that drop was allocated over time is definitely an interesting question.

• i.e. those the various governments at the time recorded as citizens and counted in censuses. I.e. not including the no doubt unregistered aboriginals in those early years.

.

Now, perhaps a vampire won't mind seventy to eighty very lean years, but that does seem like something that would bother them, especially while it was happening...

Aboriginals were not included in the census until something ridiculous like 1960, so within 70 years the immigrant population equalled the original native population. So I think the overall population probably didn't fall too quickly too soon.

And don't forget, the migrants lived in one small part of the country: Western Australia wasn't colonised until the 1830s, so for 70 years the vampires living in WA were effectively ignorant of the problem (or considered the problem likely to be limited to the East; or started fortifying their local population against the inevitable European invasion; who knows).

Or maybe the vampires would see that the new humans brought intensive farming and saw that after the lean years there'd be a lot more food for humans and thus a lot more food for them?

The real trick will be keeping track of time well enough that you don't come up on the other end twenty minutes before the local dawn.

You'd probably be able to tell dawn was coming from the sky and from animal behaviour, and dig yourself a hole quickly enough depending on your strength level.

Or when you noticed the continental shelf moving up, you'd pause, wait for yourself to fall asleep and wake back up, and then make sure you start your assault on the new continent at the beginning of the night... that'd be more logical.

His scions, perhaps?

Scion means like an heir, it has a connotation of being someone who is "chosen" to continue a legacy. So I could see a vampire calling their favoured kids scions but not all of them. It's weird we don't have that many words in english for children.

In WoD they call them neonates, but that's a general word for youngsters; they call their children a childe or progeny, brood, or "get".

True Blood uses "Maker" and "Progeny".

Buffy uses Sire but no word for children.

So really I'm tossing up between "progeny" and "children".

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 months later)

Over 112 years, it's not like it happened overnight. How that drop was allocated over time is definitely an interesting question.

And after that length of time, it's likely that none (or at least exceptionally few) of the people alive at the start were alive at the end...

But yeah, that information is going to be rather difficult to estimate.

Aboriginals were not included in the census until something ridiculous like 1960

By which point, on that population graph, they don't even add a notable bump.

And don't forget, the migrants lived in one small part of the country

That actually might make things a good deal worse. Sure, perhaps the Eastern Australian vampires are fine... but the new diseases that are killing 90% of the native people aren't going to politely limit themselves to the new colony's borders. So the Western Australian vampires get all of the losses but none of the gains.

There would almost certainly have been some disagreements as a result. Especially if the Eastern Australian vampires didn't share.

Or maybe the vampires would see that the new humans brought intensive farming and saw that after the lean years there'd be a lot more food for humans and thus a lot more food for them?

I can see a vampire thinking like that, yes. And then taking over his neighbours' food supplies so he can be sure to last through said lean years. (And then said neighbours object...)

Or when you noticed the continental shelf moving up, you'd pause, wait for yourself to fall asleep and wake back up, and then make sure you start your assault on the new continent at the beginning of the night... that'd be more logical.

Okay, yeah, that makes sense. Then you just have to make sure not to get lost and end up wandering along the length of the Marianas Trench...

Actually... what happens if a vampire is in water deep enough to crush a human? Sure, if you bring him out of there, he'll heal, but while he's stuck in there...

Scion means like an heir, it has a connotation of being someone who is "chosen" to continue a legacy.

Which fits. A vampire gets scions by choosing humans to convert, after all.

So I could see a vampire calling their favoured kids scions but not all of them.

Are you suggesting that he would choose - gasp - unworthy humans?

So really I'm tossing up between "progeny" and "children".

Hmmm... I suppose they could invent their own words. "Progs" (short for "progeny") seems to strike the right disrespectful note while still having an easily guessed derivation.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 months later)

And don't forget, the migrants lived in one small part of the country

That actually might make things a good deal worse. Sure, perhaps the Eastern Australian vampires are fine... but the new diseases that are killing 90% of the native people aren't going to politely limit themselves to the new colony's borders. So the Western Australian vampires get all of the losses but none of the gains.

I think you're underestimating the size of Australia. It's kind of like why there was Ebola in The Gambia but nobody in Ethiopia was seriously worried about it.

Size of Australia compared with South Africa: https://i.imgur.com/McUqzBl.png

Size of (most of) William's territory compared with South Africa: https://i.imgur.com/1IcITOQ.png

That's a lot of land, and sparsely populated, for a disease to spread around. Especially for a series of nomadic tribes who didn't engage in a lot of formalised trade.

There would almost certainly have been some disagreements as a result. Especially if the Eastern Australian vampires didn't share.

There probably was some internal posturing, for sure. Especially because they could probably anticipate further invasion by Europeans and vampires.

I can see a vampire thinking like that, yes. And then taking over his neighbours' food supplies so he can be sure to last through said lean years. (And then said neighbours object...)

I think you're overestimating how much food a vampire needs; 12 humans, eaten from sustainably, is enough to feed one vampire. So a small tribe of 100 would be plenty.

Actually... what happens if a vampire is in water deep enough to crush a human? Sure, if you bring him out of there, he'll heal, but while he's stuck in there...

Ohhh, that's... a very good point. It depends how "crushed" is "crushed". Like, if you're literally a bloody pulp, it'd kill a vampire. But if it's just like being run over by a truck, a vampire would be OK with it.

According to Quora, a tank running you over is about 1.1k PSI and I'll say a vampire can survive that but require healing afterwards... the bottom of the marianas trench is 15k PSI. So I'd say that pressure would kill a vampire. Average ocean depth of 2.1 miles gives a pressure of 5.4k PSI. So.... it's borderline. Won't address it until it becomes necessary and then address it the most appropriate way (e.g. "why didn't he just walk along the bottom?" "pressures about 4,000 PSI kill vampires" / or turns out a plot device works best if vampires can walk along the ocean... damnit now I need an ocean depth atlas...)

Ocean depth map: https://www.muralswallpaper.co.uk/app/uploads/world-ocean-depths-maps-plain.jpg

... it looks like if you navigated well, you'd be able to keep to the "shallow" parts of the ocean and avoid all the pressure issue. So I guess vampires can travel between the place... Eyeballing the chart and putting it into the depth calculator we're looking at 2.6k PSI to get around the place.

Scion means like an heir, it has a connotation of being someone who is "chosen" to continue a legacy.

Which fits. A vampire gets scions by choosing humans to convert, after all.

True. Hm. I'm two minds about this. I still feel scion is like an "alpha kid" name, for like Daddy's Favourite

So I could see a vampire calling their favoured kids scions but not all of them.

Are you suggesting that he would choose - gasp - unworthy humans?

True, true. I think it probably depends on the vampire. When (spoiler alert) William turns Red, he might call him a scion (... actually, he wouldn't; although they're in love, William doesn't consider Red a "worthy successor" in the sense of being called a scion; Red lacks ambition).

So really I'm tossing up between "progeny" and "children".

Hmmm... I suppose they could invent their own words. "Progs" (short for "progeny") seems to strike the right disrespectful note while still having an easily guessed derivation.

Maybe; I kind of want to adapt a new term like I did for janissary, but then I wonder how many "made up words" I get - one might be enough without things going weird.

...actually, next month's chapter has the first use of janissary, and I'm wondering if it's easily guessable what it means from context. But I hate it when characters in books talk in a contrived way so the reader learns what the words mean. And I also hate it when the narrator "talks down" to you and says something like "he replied, referring to the humans who often became addicted to the bliss of the act of being fed upon".

excerpt

---

Having had its fill, the vampire tossed the middle-aged woman to the side. She stumbled, falling to the garden path with a small thump. She lay there, with the calm of someone who had been through it dozens of times.

“Don’t stop for politeness’ sake. I am sure that one has at least a pint of blood left in her.” Cassius quipped, sitting at a table. His white-gloved hands gave gestured orders at the servants digging up flowers in the garden.

“It has been a long time since I’ve killed someone else’s janissary, your majesty.” William muttered, the inch-long fangs shrinking back into his dentition. He watched as the woman staggered to her feet, gave a small bow, and walked away.

“Let’s not be too formal with each other, tonight. I’d prefer to speak plainly.”

“Why, exactly?” William sat in the chair opposite.

“I think I know what I want in exchange for that human and I don’t want to be bogged down with niceties,” Cassius paused. “Did you kill him, yet?”

“I have not even fed from him.” William held his shoulders proudly.

“Really?”

“Yes.”

“If not adding him to your never ending parade of janissaries, what use do you have for him?”

“I have him go shopping.”

“Ah, I thought I might try him at that, after the opera, when the hotel wasn’t so busy.”

“He was very good at it. Better than any other I have seen.”

“Here I was thinking you were going to woo him, after what we saw at the opera. You were saying it might be fashionable, soon.”

“Even if will be, it would be a lot of work. And you know how conservative Queen Kalina is; even if I were to bother, I don’t know if she’d be impressed by it, and nobody else worth talking about lives on the continent.”

Cassius gave a polite chuckle.

“No, I plan on having him do my shopping. Make him into a janissary.”

“And when you get bored?”

“What I do with my janissaries is my business,” William smiled. “Now, what did you want in exchange?”

“Do you have a duchy one of my progeny could rule?”

“You know I have plenty of land; it’s prey that’s the problem. Do they keep janissaries sustainably?”

“You’re one to judge!”

“I make my home in a city of three hundred and fifty thousand. I have more than enough. The town I am thinking of has perhaps ten thousand.”

“That should be fine for a pup.”

---

thoughts: I could use the opening paragraph to define janissary or at least make it a bit clearer what it is.

Having had its fill, the vampire tossed the janissary to the side. The janissary was a middle-aged woman, who stumbled, fell to the ground with a small thump, and then calmly got up and curtsied with the calm of someone who had endured this countless times.

Something like that. Then again, William's remark shortly after makes it clear that janissaries are humans that vampires feed on, probably. Or not. Maybe I should test it on someone.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 months later)

That's a lot of land, and sparsely populated, for a disease to spread around. Especially for a series of nomadic tribes who didn't engage in a lot of formalised trade.

Yeah, and I'm not trying to suggest it would happen quickly.

However, I am taking the Wikipedia-quoted figure of a 90% drop in Aboriginal population to be, at the very least, a plausible estimate. Bear in mind, that's over a time period of over a century, so there's plenty of time for diseases to wander across even a large sparsely-populated desert.

Now, it would make sense that the casualties were heavier - possibly even eventually 100% - where the colonists landed. And it's reasonable to conclude that they were pretty near zero on the opposite end of the country for the first few years after the colonists landed. But fifty, sixty years down the line, when the new diseases start hitting? Then the vampires far from the colonists are going to really start to feel the pain.

I think you're overestimating how much food a vampire needs; 12 humans, eaten from sustainably, is enough to feed one vampire. So a small tribe of 100 would be plenty.

And if that tribe of 100 gets hit by something that kills 90% of them, then the vampire is in trouble. Not immediately, not something he can't try to get out of by finding more humans, but enough trouble to stir him to some sort of action.

It only gets worse if that tribe had previously supported two vampires.

... it looks like if you navigated well, you'd be able to keep to the "shallow" parts of the ocean and avoid all the pressure issue. So I guess vampires can travel between the place... Eyeballing the chart and putting it into the depth calculator we're looking at 2.6k PSI to get around the place.

So, navigating becomes important - or, failing, that, very carefully picking your choice of rock. (After all, if your rock is only so heavy, it'll only pull you down to a certain depth, at which point you can then swim along underwater - safe from pressure, but vulnerable to getting knocked off-course by undersea currents).

Here's another question - previously, we'd established that vampires can regrow limbs be absorbing the requisite carbon/oxygen/hydrogen/nitrogen from the surrounding air. Does this still work at all underwater? Or do undersea vampires only heal if they can find a source of these elements (e.g. eating a passing fish)?

True. Hm. I'm two minds about this. I still feel scion is like an "alpha kid" name, for like Daddy's Favourite

Fair enough.

True, true. I think it probably depends on the vampire. When (spoiler alert) William turns Red, he might call him a scion (... actually, he wouldn't; although they're in love, William doesn't consider Red a "worthy successor" in the sense of being called a scion; Red lacks ambition).

Ah - that makes sense. William turns Red because he thinks that Red is worthy to be turned - but this is different from thinking that Red is worthy to manage William's estates.

And the same can apply to other vampires, then.

...actually, next month's chapter has the first use of janissary, and I'm wondering if it's easily guessable what it means from context. But I hate it when characters in books talk in a contrived way so the reader learns what the words mean. And I also hate it when the narrator "talks down" to you and says something like "he replied, referring to the humans who often became addicted to the bliss of the act of being fed upon".

...I think you handled that fairly well in the excerpt, though testing it on someone who doesn't know what the term means is a good idea.

To point to specifics, these are a few of the things that I think you did right:

• No mention of the term until someone (William) used it in speech. Thus, we know that the person he fed from was a "middle-aged lady".
• First mention of the term referenced a recent-past incident, which has just been described without that term. Thus, we can instantly see that "jannissary", in this case, refers to the middle-aged lady; moreover, we can see that it is a thing which can be owned, and that this particular one is not William's.

In fairly short order, we also find out that a janissary is something that a person can be made into (but Red isn't yet) and can be kept sustainably (William doesn't, but considers it easy enough to replace them as he lives in a large city).

Now, there are a number of things about them that are still unclear; for example, you never explicitly say how a person is turned into a janissary, or what the significance of such is. But this is not the place for those details, in any case. No, the place for those nitty-gritty little details is when Red hears the term and asks William what it means - or perhaps he hears the term, guesses incorrectly what it means (it wouldn't be hard for him to end up thinking 'concubine') and confronts William.

Your potential replacement opening paragraph, on the other hand, is too heavy-handed, bludgeoning the reader over the head with the definition. I would advise against making that particular change.

As for the rest of the excerpt; the conversation is good, hinting at a few things here and there (like William's reputation of killing people). I'm going to assume that you're properly engaging the rest of the senses elsewhere in the chapter (this excerpt is small enough - and dialogue-heavy enough - that I wouldn't expect too much descriptiveness in it).

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 months later)

Now, it would make sense that the casualties were heavier - possibly even eventually 100% - where the colonists landed.

That did happen in Tasmania - the last full-blooded Tasmanian died in 1905. Very sad.

Makes me wonder what the vampire in the area did, felt, etc. There was a war that happened at about the right time - maybe the local vampire/s happened to be caught in the crossfire (dying in a fire or similar?). Or the vampire/s just didn't care enough to intervene, like probably most mainland vampires didn't.

And if that tribe of 100 gets hit by something that kills 90% of them, then the vampire is in trouble.

Oh yeah - I have 1:300,000 in cities / 1:100,000 in the country as my "canonical" vampire carrying capacity. So that gives a vampire, what, four orders of magnitude safety margin? A 90% reduction in population brings forth a few lean decades, but isn't going to make you fear for your life.

So, navigating becomes important - or, failing, that, very carefully picking your choice of rock.

So there's probably a vampire scientist who sells appropriately-calibrated rocks to other vampires. Love it. (Or... you know, just whatever it is scuba divers use, I think they have some sort of device that helps).

Here's another question - previously, we'd established that vampires can regrow limbs be absorbing the requisite carbon/oxygen/hydrogen/nitrogen from the surrounding air. Does this still work at all underwater?

If they can absorb these elements from the surrounding air, then it stands to reason they can absorb them from gases dissolved in the water, or potentially from the water itself - since it requires some chemistry to happen in the vampire's skin or whathaveyou. So they probably can, with the old "not committing to it one way or the other in case needed for plot" caveat.

Ah - that makes sense. William turns Red because he thinks that Red is worthy to be turned - but this is different from thinking that Red is worthy to manage William's estates.

Well, yeah, and William thinks nobody is worthy to manage his estates. Vampires view wills as... pessimistic, I guess you could say. They don't intend to die any time soon, so why bother coming up with a succession plan? If you name a successor it only encourages them to kill you, after all.

So the concept of "scion" is probably completely divorced from something a vampire would ever need - they don't need successors as they don't envision anyone ever succeeding them. I'm coming back around to it... but I wonder if I should stick with the more universal "progeny" as I hate making up a word for no reason.

...I think you handled that fairly well in the excerpt, though testing it on someone who doesn't know what the term means is a good idea.

Testing has been done...

Test 1: (definition of janissary:) A person a vampire keeps that they can feed from? / (did it feel clear?) it seemed clear to me when I read it

Test 2: I wasn't lost, I felt like I got the gist of it in context (hopefully). I got the sense it meant a kind of servant, or more likely slave, kept by vampires to feed off. I was a bit confused mostly because janissaries are a gun-wielding Turkish unit from Age of Empires 2, but from googling it I can see why other definitions of the word make it fit.

So, looks like it's gone as well as can be expected for a term that has extra connotations that were not addressed in the passage. So that and your comments make me relieved. Phew!

No, the place for those nitty-gritty little details is when Red hears the term and asks William what it means - or perhaps he hears the term, guesses incorrectly what it means (it wouldn't be hard for him to end up thinking 'concubine') and confronts William.

tee-hee. oh, i wonder when Red would hear the word janissary for the first time... I think it's a good deal later.

*examines document* yeah, it's when Red is talking to Lucia, and that's like, a year later, after which William has probably explained to Red what a janissary is. They do go over the definition again but don't actually hit the extra little connotations, so I might rework the scene a little bit (excerpt time!~)

Your potential replacement opening paragraph, on the other hand, is too heavy-handed

Thanks for reassuring me. It was an example of "the narrator talking down to the reader" that I dislike.

I'm going to assume that you're properly engaging the rest of the senses elsewhere in the chapter

Thanks to your... constant badgering ... I'm getting better at adding senses. They're not automatic but I am finding it easier to identify locations and to think of passable things. Of course, you've made me realise the upcoming Big Kissy Scene has very little senses in it so now I'm regretting everything about my life.

---

EXCERPT

---

“Could we have a cup of tea somewhere whilst his majesty and her grace meet? I’m not quite tired yet.”

“Of course. Is the kitchen okay?” Red asked, leading her downstairs. “I’m still... learning some of these things. I don’t want to be rude.”

She nodded. “That sounds fine.”

When they reached the kitchen, Red automatically went for the jar of coffee before remembering that William had advised him to follow her lead. “I only have black tea, is that alright?” He asked, fetching the sugar and going to open the refrigerator. “And, well, sweet tea, but William said that no one drinks that outside of the United States, but you can try it if you like.” He said, recalling the look of ever so slight disapproval when he had suggested to William that he ought to provide a pitcher of sweet tea as well.

“A local specialty? I would love to try some.”

“Well, not local here. It’s a big thing back home, though.” Red smiled, put the sugar away, and poured two tall glasses of sweet tea.

“So, I take it you’re new to all of this?” Lucia asked, smiling as she sipped on her tea.

“Apparently, yes.” He said, pausing to take a sip of his own beverage; it was so sweet it hurt his teeth. Just the way he liked it. “And you? I assume you’re not.”

“I suppose not.” She laughed. “I’ve been working with her grace for nearly a century, now.”

Red coughed on his tea, the sugary liquid burning into his nose. “A century?”

“How new are you?” Lucia gave him a suspicious look; could the rumours be true? Was this man only as old as William’s tenure on Corsica?

“I've been with him…” He thought for a moment, but quickly realised she was not interested in a precise date. “Ten months?”

“Wow.”

“You would have been new, too, what, ninety nine years ago” He offered, with a small, forced smile. “Wow. A century.” He repeated, still not quite believing it. “How old are you then, and how are you....” He paused. “Sorry. That was rude. My mom raised me not to ask a lady her age. Sorry.”

“Has King William really given you nothing?”

“No, he gives me things. He got me this suit last week. Spent a lot of time on it, too.” He said fondly, absentmindedly rubbing at the lapel with his thumb. He knew he was missing some important detail, but was desperately trying not to make it obvious. He thought of William and how badly he didn’t want to embarrass him. It seemed more impossible by the second.

She gave him another chuckle. “My, it has been a long time since I’ve spoken with an ordinary person. You’re just a janissary, aren’t you?”

“What's a janissary again? Wait, are they, the, um…” He snapped his fingers, trying to remember the word. “They’re the ones that they… drink from regularly, right?”

“Yes. But you work much more closely with King William than I would have expected for a janissary. He must trust you a lot more than anyone in their right mind should, or he’s too selfish to give you anything more than this.”

Red frowned, a bit taken aback by the accusations. “He’s not... what do you mean, give me more? He looks out for me plenty as it is, I wouldn’t ask any more of him.”

“I suppose he has time; you’re still rather young. Maybe he’ll be ready to promote you in a year or two. Then you can experience the many joys of co-ordinating janissaries, shopping for rare books, and the daily chore of waiting for sunset.” She said, grinning despite herself.

“What do you mean, promote?” Red asked, furrowing his brow. “I hadn’t really thought... It’s all been pretty hand to mouth since we left Rome.”

“It’s not really my place to…” She said obliquely, still grinning; she clearly had decided to tell him anyway. “One day, he will ask you to drink some of his blood.”

Red wrinkled his nose. “Oh.”

“That’s the promotion. You see, he feeds from you, right?”

“Yes, but… he’s a vampire. It makes sense for him to drink blood, but I don’t...ugh.” He took another sip of tea, trying to imagine what his blood must taste like. He wished he hadn’t.

She shook her head. “No, that’s not what I meant. You know how after he feeds, everything’s… clearer? You don’t really need to sleep?”

“Well. Yes?”

“If you get that just from him biting you, imagine what you’d get from drinking his blood…”

“I hadn't really thought…” Red murmured.

“That’s the real magic. It’s what’s kept me alive all these years. I’m surprised a king who is as old as her grace says his majesty is does not have two or three thralls.”

“Thralls?”

She laughed. “Blood-fed-people. We have a lot of names. Serfs. Vassals. Ghouls. The more modern ones call us thralls, and I prefer it. Sounds more civilised.”

“But what do they do with them?” Red asked, not trying to hide how confused he was anymore. “What’s its use? I mean, from their end?”

“They benefit very well from doing this to us.” She paused. “We can serve them better. I saw how difficult it was for you to lift that basket.”

“I guess so.” He said, finally, still not understanding. “Are you happy? With her, I mean?”

“Of course. She asks very little in return for what she gives me.”

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 months later)

That did happen in Tasmania - the last full-blooded Tasmanian died in 1905. Very sad.

Eeeek. That is a pretty horrible story.

...one thing I notice in the description of the war, though. The wikipedia page mentions that the Tasmanians tended to attack during the daylight hours, while the settlers did so at night or in the dawn. This pattern would seem to fit the case where the settlers had (presumably mostly without knowing it) vampire support while the Tasmanians did not...

Though one has to wonder whether or not there's a pure-blooded Tasmanian vampire wandering about.

Oh yeah - I have 1:300,000 in cities / 1:100,000 in the country as my "canonical" vampire carrying capacity. So that gives a vampire, what, four orders of magnitude safety margin? A 90% reduction in population brings forth a few lean decades, but isn't going to make you fear for your life.

Ah, right. That's plenty of food security, then. (Enough that I imagine vampires have to police themselves to maintain that approximate ratio.)

(Or... you know, just whatever it is scuba divers use, I think they have some sort of device that helps).

I... think scuba divers use a weighted belt? With lead weights on it.

If they can absorb these elements from the surrounding air, then it stands to reason they can absorb them from gases dissolved in the water, or potentially from the water itself - since it requires some chemistry to happen in the vampire's skin or whathaveyou. So they probably can, with the old "not committing to it one way or the other in case needed for plot" caveat.

Hmmm. Perfectly sensible - which means that the remaining question then is what about a vampire who wears a full-body wetsuit. My first thought was that if he couldn't touch water either, regeneration would be tricky, but then I had another thought - rubber is made of long-chain organic molecules, and thus it has carbon and oxygen and so on in it already. So, a regenerating vampire probably eats through rubber, meat, and other organic materials like acid...

Well, yeah, and William thinks nobody is worthy to manage his estates. Vampires view wills as... pessimistic, I guess you could say. They don't intend to die any time soon, so why bother coming up with a succession plan? If you name a successor it only encourages them to kill you, after all.

One doesn't need to be a successor to manage William's estates. He could always explicitly Turn someone in order to offer long-term employment as a manager and do all the tedious paperwork.

So, looks like it's gone as well as can be expected for a term that has extra connotations that were not addressed in the passage.

Excellent!

yeah, it's when Red is talking to Lucia, and that's like, a year later, after which William has probably explained to Red what a janissary is.

Ah. So a proper William-explains-to-Red scene would have to be specifically inserted, then. And I don't think it's enough of a plot point to devote an entire scene to the only minor nuances of that definition.

Thanks to your... constant badgering ... I'm getting better at adding senses.

Yay!

{excerpt}

Huh.

A somewhat creepy look into the mind of a thrall, really - not creepy at once, but very creepy once you look deeper into it. Do they never at any point sit down?

And again, senses, senses, senses. I see you have a mention of the taste of the tea - which is good - but not a mention of Lucia's reaction to that taste (can she still even taste things?)

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 months later)

This pattern would seem to fit the case where the settlers had (presumably mostly without knowing it) vampire support while the Tasmanians did not...

Or the colonists had an older, stronger vampire and the Tasmanians' vampire lord was giving them pointers on how to take care of it?

That's plenty of food security, then. (Enough that I imagine vampires have to police themselves to maintain that approximate ratio.)

Yeah, I picture it being more a, vampires don't like being around other vampires too much - maybe an instinctive revulsion that was meant to stop them from "forming a union" when they were made as weapons. Or modern vampires are aware of the Catastrophe and how much the population fell as a result, and are as such aware that the same thing could happen to humans, so they allow themselves that buffer.

I... think scuba divers use a weighted belt?

Hm I always thought it was something that could be... adjusted so you could float or sink according to your preference.

Looks like we're both right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy_compensator_(diving)

They use lead weights to get about neutral and then the buoyancy compensator adjusts more finely so you can "float" wherever you want. So vampires would probably use the lead weights.

(The weights make sense too because in an emergency situation a human diver can just throw the weights to the sea floor and float more easily to the surface - the bends is probably preferable to suffocating due to a faulty piece of equipment, after all)

Hmmm. Perfectly sensible - which means that the remaining question then is what about a vampire who wears a full-body wetsuit.

Full body wetsuit? Including the head/eyes? That's a bit... hard to imagine, right? I'd imagine the more naked you are the faster you can regenerate in a low gas environment?

Interesting to think if a regenerating vampire eats through things or just air. The vampires were designed so they might have been designed to regenerate from substances in the air, so the nanites are only capable of making the chemical reactions with the air - after all if you had a vampire weapon and it destroyed your nice hardwood floor when it regenerated, that's a problem. Then again, there's probably a hierarchy, and at the very least they'd be able to recruit hydrogen and oxygen from water as it's conceivable that a vampire would be underwater to heal or a bad guy would attempt to drown it.

One doesn't need to be a successor to manage William's estates. He could always explicitly Turn someone in order to offer long-term employment as a manager and do all the tedious paperwork.

Why Turn when you can make someone a Thrall? They are at least beholden to you, rather than a Childe who'd be open to negotiating with other vampires to get a better position than you're giving them - in exchange for your death and a nice cut of your territory, of course.

Still, Cassius probably has a lot of kids because he does something like this: Turns humans with appropriate personalities to manage his duchys. After all, you can't guarantee your kids won't turn on you, but you can be pretty sure someone else's kids aren't going to be as loyal as your hand-picked "brainwashed" kids might be.

Ah. So a proper William-explains-to-Red scene would have to be specifically inserted, then. And I don't think it's enough of a plot point to devote an entire scene to the only minor nuances of that definition.

Does it have to be inserted? The nuances are only very small (the janissaries get the benefits of being fed from out of the deal is basically the only one, and that's implicit), so I think we go OK without it.

A somewhat creepy look into the mind of a thrall, really - not creepy at once, but very creepy once you look deeper into it. Do they never at any point sit down?

I pictured them in that scene to be standing in the kitchen, since the bosses are in the dining room, and I don't imagine the kitchen as having chairs: it's off on one end of the house, with a long bench and an oven at the very far end and an icebox and some shelves/etc. Nothing like the modern kitchens where you tend to be able to sit and eat breakfast.

Interesting you said it was creepy, the story cuts from the excerpt I just showed you to the very next scene:

---

“Now we are far enough from the house we may speak freely.” Lucia told Red. It was the next day; Lucia and Red were at the market together. The four janissaries seemed to have no interest in going into town; they stayed at home, played cards, did embroidery or read books. The warm spring sunshine and the soft breeze made it a pleasant day to be out.

“What?” Red didn’t stop from adjusting the fruit in his basket. There was a new hire at the market stall today who apparently wasn’t aware that strawberries could bruise; already their rough flesh felt too soft. “What are you talking about?”

“Do you have any idea what you’ve gotten yourself involved in?”

Red looked at her briefly, trying to think what she was talking about. “Was this about the woman giving me that bottle of wine? Because I know what people say about her, but she’s just a generous old lady and I brought her cat back once. That’s all.”

Lucia frowned, walking away from the fruit stall, where their conversation would be less easily overheard. “No. I am talking about the master of the house.”

Red frowned back, his mind racing. “What do you mean?” He decided on, finally.

“He and Elodia aren’t…” She lowered her voice, for the first time not referring to Elodia as ‘her grace’. “... They aren’t normal. And I don’t think you understand exactly what that means.”

“I know about the… you know.” He put one hand up to his mouth, tapping his mouth with the tips of his pointer and middle finger; he got the feeling that this strange, new version of Lucia would flinch if he said the ‘v’ word.

“I think you don’t know the half of it.”

“I don’t doubt that.” Red agreed. “Did something happen? You seem… different.”

“They hear everything we say, even if they are talking in another room. Did you know that?”

“Wait, what? I knew the hearing was good, but I didn’t…”

“They pay attention to it, too. I once saw Elodia follow two separate conversations at once.”

“That’s… unsettling.” He studied her for a moment. “Were you worried about being heard yesterday? Is that why you’re talking about this now?”

“Yes. I don’t know what William is like,” She said, again not using his title. “But I’ve seen a lot of young people like you… that don’t understand what they’re dealing with.”

“What do you mean?”

Lucia frowned. “They think they are going on some grand adventure, trying a wonderful drug, perhaps escaping something even worse. But… I have seen many get killed.”

“Ah.” Red considered that for a few moments. “I thought that might be the case.” He admitted.

“So I try to make sure that people like you… are aware of all that. That they can always, always hear you. That they can give you commands that you are powerless to resist, just by looking you in the eye. And that once you outlive your usefulness, they will kill you and not think twice about it.”

Red thought about this for a long time, carefully composing his response.

“Thank you for telling me.” He said finally. “I’ll keep it in mind. I’ll be careful.”

“There are advantages too, of course.” She added. “But it’s not fair that they have us take these risks without knowing.”

Red furrowed his brow. “But what about you? Are you… alright?” He finished finally, trying to find the words, genuinely concerned.

Lucia laughed. “Carlos, I’m a hundred and forty seven years old and I can carry more than a young buck like you. I live in a luxurious seaside estate in Bonifacio. I want for nothing, let me assure you.”

“Okay.” He nodded, accepting, and patted the rough skin of her arm. “If you need help, you can tell me. Okay?”

“If it pleases you.”

They slowly walked to other stalls; as the sweet smell of fruit gave way to more wholesome, earthy aromas they tried to find the best-looking greens to have with dinner. Red was still instinctively comparing prices; he wondered if money meant anything at all to Lucia, now. Red had so many questions, and she seemed willing to answer. William had always been communicative, but he refused to answer so many questions.

“Is Duchess Elodia… is she really fussy about clothing?” Red asked, allowing himself to raise his voice over the rabble of villagers bargaining nearby.

Lucia laughed again. “Oh, yes, very. She had us sent to her tailor, insisted on choosing the fabrics herself. Made sure I pinned my hair up the way she wanted me to, and adjusted it before we got out of the car.”

“Hm.” Red murmured. “King William was just the same. He re-did my tie and my shoelaces, too.”

“Oh yes. They’re all like that. Elodia tried to explain it to me, once. The way the laces cross and the number of holes in the shoes… it’s very important.”

“What about the ritual?” Red asked, having built enough courage to question her about it. “King William said you've done one before?”

“Dozens. It’s not as bad as you think. You’ll be the server, right?”

“Yeah. King William gave me a lot of instructions, things about where to put the cups.”

“As long as you remember everything he taught you, you will be fine. I’m going to be preparing the blood. I’ll try and explain it as I go. It will be very helpful if you need to do it in the future. It’s a lot of hard work, but they seem to really like it. Well, as much as they seem to like anything. I’m just glad that there’s only going to be two of them.”

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 months later)

Or the colonists had an older, stronger vampire and the Tasmanians' vampire lord was giving them pointers on how to take care of it?

Now that you mention it... that actually does fit better.

modern vampires are aware of the Catastrophe and how much the population fell as a result, and are as such aware that the same thing could happen to humans, so they allow themselves that buffer.

This was more or less what I was thinking, yes - they police themselves to deliberately allow themselves that buffer.

Looks like we're both right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy_compensator_(diving)

Huh. Looking over that link... transpacific vampires can't use buoyancy compensators.

Or - let me rephrase that - they can't use buoyancy compensators for long. Because the gasses will leak and before they've gone two days' swim, there won't be any left unless they start with an impractically high number of air cylinders...

(The weights make sense too because in an emergency situation a human diver can just throw the weights to the sea floor and float more easily to the surface - the bends is probably preferable to suffocating due to a faulty piece of equipment, after all)

The bends are nasty, but not - generally - lethal, it would seem. Interestingly, it looks like vampires could also suffer from the bends - as it's entirely due to pressure differentials and not a germ-based disease - but their regeneration probably masks any and all symptoms, so none of them ever notice.

Full body wetsuit? Including the head/eyes? That's a bit... hard to imagine, right?

Fishbowl helmet? Filled with argon so there's no usable air in there?

I'd imagine the more naked you are the faster you can regenerate in a low gas environment?

That depends - if it's "most skin contact with organic molecules", then the one in the rubber suit might heal faster - until his suit finishes dissolving, of course.

after all if you had a vampire weapon and it destroyed your nice hardwood floor when it regenerated, that's a problem.

That's true - and, to tie that back into another famous piece of vampire mythology, maybe their creator liked his wooden floors enough that he deliberately coded in an exception for wood, so their bodies expel anything non-organic and use anything organic, except wood, to repair themselves. So wood is then the only thing that, if you stab them with it and leave the weapon in the wound, they stay stabbed...

Why Turn when you can make someone a Thrall? They are at least beholden to you, rather than a Childe who'd be open to negotiating with other vampires to get a better position than you're giving them - in exchange for your death and a nice cut of your territory, of course.

But a thrall has to be fed, at least once a week. Who wants to continually interrupt their serious research to bother with that?

Does it have to be inserted?

No, it doesn't. Apologies, poor phrasing on my part.

I pictured them in that scene to be standing in the kitchen, since the bosses are in the dining room, and I don't imagine the kitchen as having chairs: it's off on one end of the house, with a long bench and an oven at the very far end and an icebox and some shelves/etc. Nothing like the modern kitchens where you tend to be able to sit and eat breakfast.

Ah. But then they never pace slightly, lean against a countertop (or a stove), shift their weight, etc...

[excerpt]

Good work on the senses! I noticed smell, touch, and sound in there, so well done!

This is actually a good deal less creepy than the previous scene... which implies that a lot of Lucia's creepiness might have been her phrasing things so that the vampires wouldn't mind overhearing her.

u/MagicWeasel [+1] Cheela Astronaut (2 months later)

Looks like we're both right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy_compensator_(diving)

Huh. Looking over that link... transpacific vampires can't use buoyancy compensators.

Or - let me rephrase that - they can't use buoyancy compensators for long. Because the gasses will leak and before they've gone two days' swim, there won't be any left unless they start with an impractically high number of air cylinders...

Hm, good point. Depends how fast a vampire can swim, then. Fastest human speed in a short distance is 8.6km/hr.... Even if we assume vampires can swim at 100km/hr (an order of magnitude than it seems a human body is "capable" of), Spain to the USA is like, 3,500km - so it'd take at least a week, assuming vampires can swim 10x faster over a long period than an olympic athlete can swim for 50m. More likely I think a vampire swimming speed would max out at 30km/h, though I guess it also depends on the theoretical properties of the human body, and also the vampires could, like, put flippers on or something to increase their speed.

Fishbowl helmet? Filled with argon so there's no usable air in there?

And then the question comes why would a vampire do that? I could see a suitably evil vampire putting his flayed rivals in argon atmospheres until they slowly went insane, or whathaveyou?

I'd imagine the more naked you are the faster you can regenerate in a low gas environment?

That depends - if it's "most skin contact with organic molecules", then the one in the rubber suit might heal faster - until his suit finishes dissolving, of course.

I suppose, again, depends on what the vampire nanites are capable of.

That's true - and, to tie that back into another famous piece of vampire mythology, maybe their creator liked his wooden floors enough that he deliberately coded in an exception for wood, so their bodies expel anything non-organic and use anything organic, except wood, to repair themselves. So wood is then the only thing that, if you stab them with it and leave the weapon in the wound, they stay stabbed...

Maybe a better feature: organic molecules cannot be used by a vampire to heal? I don't know. I could see, say, a copper rod being inserted into a vampire's heart and the vampire can't eat it away to heal because the body doesn't use that much copper.

But a thrall has to be fed, at least once a week. Who wants to continually interrupt their serious research to bother with that?

Well.... your blood has a shelf life (or does it? I always assumed vampire blood had a near-indefinite shelf-life, but maybe it doesn't) - anyway with a long enough shelf life, you just need to bleed into a vial every few years and have one of your janissaries deliver it to your thrall (or just have your thrall pick it up).

Probably if serious research was your focus, as a vampire, your interests would be better met by becoming the subject of some king or another, who would do all the hard work of managing territories, and then you could take over later on if/when you felt like it.

I pictured them in that scene to be standing in the kitchen

Ah. But then they never pace slightly, lean against a countertop (or a stove), shift their weight, etc...

Good point, I'll put some of that sort of thing in.

This is actually a good deal less creepy than the previous scene... which implies that a lot of Lucia's creepiness might have been her phrasing things so that the vampires wouldn't mind overhearing her.

Lucia's a funny character; she's pragmatically realised that being a thrall is a really good deal as long as she doesn't piss anyone off, and is hoping she'll one day get turned. But she's got a lot of motherly instincts because she realises people don't choose this lifestyle as logically as she did. And she assumes Red is some young drug addict who William picked up shortly before leaving Australia.

We're talking about Elodia having some big problem that William could fix, and Lucia calling in that favour that Red promised her, because William would just relish in the opportunity to grind Elodia into the ground, socially speaking. Might be something to do with William assassinating Junior, I guess: maybe Elodia gets blamed for it, and Lucia knows that William could possibly offer an alibi, or put Elodia in William's territory, or something. Haven't really nailed it down yet. Might just not get picked up.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 months later)

Fastest human speed in a short distance is 8.6km/hr.... Even if we assume vampires can swim at 100km/hr (an order of magnitude than it seems a human body is "capable" of), Spain to the USA is like, 3,500km - so it'd take at least a week, assuming vampires can swim 10x faster over a long period than an olympic athlete can swim for 50m.

Vampires with suitable maps of ocean currents and a truly brilliant sense of direction might be able to speed that up further. However, there is another issue to consider, talking about currents - the vampires are deep enough that sunlight doesn't reach them, and thus they can't navigate by moon or stars. Once they take their feet off the ocean floor, they become the playthings of ocean currents, which may whisk them here and there, hither and tither, back and forth without them even noticing.

In short, how does an undersea vampire navigate? And is there some vampire at the bottom of the Pacific who's got so turned about that he no longer knows where land is?

And then the question comes why would a vampire do that? I could see a suitably evil vampire putting his flayed rivals in argon atmospheres until they slowly went insane, or whathaveyou?

...alright, point. Maybe, instead of argon, there was usable air in there...but it was already all used up on earlier regeneration...

I could see, say, a copper rod being inserted into a vampire's heart and the vampire can't eat it away to heal because the body doesn't use that much copper.

Yeah, I can see that working... but it also implies that vampires are not bulletproof, that if you can smash the heart, you kill the vampire...and that's not hard if it's what you set out to do

Well.... your blood has a shelf life (or does it? I always assumed vampire blood had a near-indefinite shelf-life, but maybe it doesn't) - anyway with a long enough shelf life, you just need to bleed into a vial every few years and have one of your janissaries deliver it to your thrall (or just have your thrall pick it up).

I guess that works...

Probably if serious research was your focus, as a vampire, your interests would be better met by becoming the subject of some king or another, who would do all the hard work of managing territories, and then you could take over later on if/when you felt like it.

If he knows what's good for him, he'll call me "Emperor". Not that I'll interfere with his management, of course...

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 months later)

In short, how does an undersea vampire navigate? And is there some vampire at the bottom of the Pacific who's got so turned about that he no longer knows where land is?

Compasses work underwater, I'm not sure what you'd do for a map though to orient yourself.

You could also swim to the surface to see the stars: if you swam too close during daylight you'd pass out (actually I think you'd probably pass out during daylight anyway unless you're very deep).

But yeah - wouldn't be very reliable. Might be better off chartering a small boat, though risky storms/etc would be a problem (actually: perhaps a vampire carries a waterproof box with maps, compass, sextant, etc and then surfaces periodically?)

Yeah, I can see that working... but it also implies that vampires are not bulletproof, that if you can smash the heart, you kill the vampire...and that's not hard if it's what you set out to do

Yeah. I am also running into a problem which is that a headshot will kill a vampire if I make it canon that the brain can't regrow with memories/personality/etc intact, which I also don't like as it makes it too easy to kill vampires with guns. So I might say the brain can regrow perfectly, and there's some sort of 'backup' in the 4D copy or bat form or something or backed up on the nanites.

But that means that if the vampire is decapitated, we don't get zombies, we get the vampire's brain growing back, and if we take a small piece of the heart we make clones. And I have a hard pass on clones. So that's... hard to reconcile.

Probably if serious research was your focus, as a vampire, your interests would be better met by becoming the subject of some king or another, who would do all the hard work of managing territories, and then you could take over later on if/when you felt like it.

If he knows what's good for him, he'll call me "Emperor". Not that I'll interfere with his management, of course...

I can see it now: a powerful vampire King with a scientist who is working on something or other that is important for the King. The King acknowledges that the scientist is a bit loopy--asks to be called emperor and whatnot--but humours her nonetheless because of the small scientific advancements the scientist spits out for the King (not what the scientist is actually working on, of course, just piddly little things they come up after a week whenever the King seems to be getting tired of her). Of course, the scientist ends up developing something to neutralise the sun, or to mind control the King, and she becomes the emperor of the earth in earnest.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 months later)

You could also swim to the surface to see the stars: if you swam too close during daylight you'd pass out (actually I think you'd probably pass out during daylight anyway unless you're very deep).

Hmmm. When the vampire passes out, he sinks to the level set by the rocks (or lead weights) he is carrying. If that's deep enough to avoid the sun (which is only sensible, so he can keep swimming all night) then he wakes up again, and has to keep trying to swim up until he manages the entire swim - with his weights - without passing out. (Which probably means it is near dawn. Risky).

Hmmmm.

Plan B: The vampire takes a thrall with him. The thrall is in a rowboat, with maps, compasses, sextants, etc. The vampire is at the bottom of a long rope, and they can communicate by a coded pattern of tugs on the rope, or by sending coloured flags up/down.

Downside: Everyone can see the boat.

Yeah. I am also running into a problem which is that a headshot will kill a vampire if I make it canon that the brain can't regrow with memories/personality/etc intact, which I also don't like as it makes it too easy to kill vampires with guns.

Easily solved! Vampire skulls are completely impervious to anything non-magical (except sunlight etc.) So the bullets just bounce off their skulls and their brains remain intact.

I can see it now: a powerful vampire King with a scientist who is working on something or other that is important for the King. The King acknowledges that the scientist is a bit loopy--asks to be called emperor and whatnot--but humours her nonetheless because of the small scientific advancements the scientist spits out for the King (not what the scientist is actually working on, of course, just piddly little things they come up after a week whenever the King seems to be getting tired of her). Of course, the scientist ends up developing something to neutralise the sun, or to mind control the King, and she becomes the emperor of the earth in earnest.

And in the meantime, the King helps the Scientist by dealing with anyone else who wants to challenge the King for a leadership role.

What the King doesn't realise is that the Emperor actually finished his mind control device decades ago (and occasionally uses it on the King to keep him quiet) but he doesn't actually want to do the administration of the world, he genuinely just wants to be left alone to do his science in quiet...

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 months later)

Plan B: The vampire takes a thrall with him. The thrall is in a rowboat, with maps, compasses, sextants, etc. The vampire is at the bottom of a long rope, and they can communicate by a coded pattern of tugs on the rope, or by sending coloured flags up/down.

The thrall can eat fish, that's easy enough, but what will the thrall drink? You'd need a huge supply of water in the boat, which I guess must be possible - you need 4L per person per day, so if we say the vampire takes a month to swim long distances that's... 120 L, which isn't too much weight-wise. And the thrall isn't going to be doing anything too strenuous (no rowing/etc) so 4L might be conservative.

headshot shouldn't kill

Vampire skulls are completely impervious to anything non-magical (except sunlight etc.) So the bullets just bounce off their skulls and their brains remain intact.

That old joke, "you know the indestructable black box they have in case of plane crashes? why don't they make the whole plane out of that stuf!?!?!" -- that's what I'm thinking. If the vampire skull has a coating of, titanium or whatever, why isn't that over the whole body? I like the image of a vampire being shot, the bullets passing harmlessly through her as she gripes about her clothing being ruined.

That said, I'm OK with a vampire dying if you put its head underneath a comically large mallet and smash it to a pulp.

So, let's do it a different way: people can have half of their brain removed and still seem to be the same person (maybe they're not, but they act and feel as though they are and don't seem to lose memories). Vampire brains grow back, and as long as too much brain tissue isn't lost, they can grow back and little is lost.

Now, I'm not one for gore so I am not going to look this up, but I get the impression that a gunshot suicide involves, like, the back half of the head being completely gone in terms of level of trauma. But that's point blank, and if you're close enough to a vampire to do a point blank headshot without them being able to, you know, knock the gun out of the way, then the vampire has other problems.

But let's say, if a vampire has at least, say, 30% of her brain "reasonably intact", she'll be fine. Pissed off, maybe, but fine. And it's probably extremely painful even by vampire standards (maybe it's a punishment they use).

OK, damnit, I've looked up more stuff. There's plenty of bullets that can "explode heads", so all the above is kind of irrelevant, hunters or rival vampires are going to be equipped with those.

I think the best solution to this is to just give the vampires "bullet time" matrix-style - despite their name, silencers are very loud, so vampires could easily hear a bullet, use their super speed to look around for it, and then limbo below the bullet. (And they only need to limbo their head out the way, they don't care about body shots). It's stupid and gimmicky, but I think it's going to be the only way to do it without unintended consequences.

I wonder if there's more unintended consequences to a vampire being fast enough to do bullet time? Gonna try and remember to put that on the Saturday thread.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 months later)

If the vampire skull has a coating of, titanium or whatever, why isn't that over the whole body? I like the image of a vampire being shot, the bullets passing harmlessly through her as she gripes about her clothing being ruined.

Simple, immediate solution - it does apply everywhere, but only to her bones; bullets still ruin clothes, smash through skin, and so on.

So, let's do it a different way: people can have half of their brain removed and still seem to be the same person (maybe they're not, but they act and feel as though they are and don't seem to lose memories). Vampire brains grow back, and as long as too much brain tissue isn't lost, they can grow back and little is lost.

That also works. Have you ever heard of a concept called forward error correction? That's basically the principle by which the above would work.

In short, you have a set of data. You turn this into a much larger set of data, so that you can regenerate the whole data set even if a portion of the data is lost. (This is how a CD can still be readable if it has a scratch or two).

So, the human brain may already have some level of forward error correction. Vampires might have a far higher level, and thus be able to retain the contents of their heads even in the face of substantially more damage.

I think the best solution to this is to just give the vampires "bullet time" matrix-style - despite their name, silencers are very loud, so vampires could easily hear a bullet, use their super speed to look around for it, and then limbo below the bullet.

Not gonna work, unfortunately - bullets travel faster than sound, so by the time the sound of the bullet reaches the vampire, it's too late to dodge. It doesn't matter how fast he is...

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 months later)

Simple, immediate solution - it does apply everywhere, but only to her bones; bullets still ruin clothes, smash through skin, and so on.

Then they'd richochet off her hard bones rather than harmlessly pass through them. Ugh. Logic is hard.

Have you ever heard of a concept called forward error correction?

Yep, was thinking about something along those lines.

bullets travel faster than sound

oh, right. Ugh. Maybe... they can hear the gun cocking? But that does't need to happen immediately before the shot, so no. They are just always listening for the tell-tale sign of someone squeezing a trigger?

So... still got nothing to explain how vampires can survive headshots from hollow point bullets or large gauge bullets. And these have existed for 100+ years so would be well known by vampire hunters.

I mean at the end of the day it strains credulity that a creature would be able to survive having their head blown up. So maybe they can't. Maybe a lot of vampire hunting consists of shooting them with scary bullets.

At least my "vampire hunters kill vampires" story is set in Australia so won't involve guns much (... I wonder if police officers are allowed to keep guns at home?)

u/CCC_037 [+1] (2 months later)

Then they'd richochet off her hard bones rather than harmlessly pass through them.

Only if they strike at a very specific angle, and then they'd still lose momentum due to passing through the muscles first.

If they strike dead-on, they'll knock the bone back (it's unbreakable, not immovable) and lose most of their energy to either that motion or the bullet deforming.

oh, right. Ugh. Maybe... they can hear the gun cocking? But that does't need to happen immediately before the shot, so no. They are just always listening for the tell-tale sign of someone squeezing a trigger?

...possibly they can feel the bullet breaking their skin, and their nerves are fast enough to trigger a reflexive, involuntary 'get-out-the-way' muscle twitch? But that allows a sufficiently well-prepared hunter to force a vampire to move like he wants, with the right pattern of shots.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (2 months later)

If they strike dead-on, they'll knock the bone back (it's unbreakable, not immovable) and lose most of their energy to either that motion or the bullet deforming.

Oh, good point. Hits the femur, all of a sudden the vampire's femur sticks out her perfectly tailored pants. She frowns, pushes it back into position, and goes for revenge....

possibly they can feel the bullet breaking their skin, and their nerves are fast enough to trigger a reflexive, involuntary 'get-out-the-way' muscle twitch?

Ohh, make the bones harder (nanites packing the calcium more efficiently or some bull) and use this and a combination of bullet time / "plucking the bullet out of the air". Presumably the bullet has a shockwave in the air that reaches the vampire marginally before the bullet does. At its most extreme I see a vampire sitting, reading, and a sniper keeps on firing shots and the vampire flicks them out of the way like a fly.

Also, thick medieval style metal helmets will probably get a lot of use when vampires fear guns as they'll slow/stop a bullet enough.

But that allows a sufficiently well-prepared hunter to force a vampire to move like he wants, with the right pattern of shots

That'd have to be a hell of a well-prepared hunter, but I'm going to allow this.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 months later)

Presumably the bullet has a shockwave in the air that reaches the vampire marginally before the bullet does.

Nope - shockwaves through air travel at the speed of sound (sound is a shockwave through air) so the bullet outruns its own shockwave. The bullet has to actually touch the skin (and leave a wound) for this - the reflexive motion just gets the brain out of the way (the rest will heal). And since it's reflexive, your attempt at a headshot just caused the vampire to smash his head through the back of his favourite chair - now he has another reason to be upset...

Of course, if the vampire knows you're there, he might well be fast enough to catch a bullet that he can see coming.

That'd have to be a hell of a well-prepared hunter, but I'm going to allow this.

Not to mention, an incredible marksman.

u/MagicWeasel [+1] Cheela Astronaut (2 months later)

the bullet outruns its own shockwave

Oh FFS, that's not fair. That shouldn't even be allowed.

So, I guess they've got strong bones, great reflexes, and are always at least a little bit on guard for a bullet. Surround them with hollow points and you might just be able to bag yourself a vampire, but ever since hollow points were invented vampires have avoided putting themselves in situations like that.

So, I think the bullet thing is covered as much as it's ever going to be, which means - new excerpt / brainstorming time if you're still keen to indulge me on these things!

An upcoming interlude has William confessing his sins to a priest - of course, he doesn't believe the priest is anything more than a heretic, since the One True Faith has been bastardised so heavily over the 1500 years since he practised it, but it's better than nothing / it's a ritual he enjoys participating in.

I've got William telling the priest he feels bad for seducing an employee, but what he actually feels bad about / wants to get off his chest is that he likes Red too much, he was expecting to just seduce him to do something popular, cost of doing business, etc, but he's finding himself charmed by Red's personality/etc. I just reworked it now, trying to work out if it's phrased right or needs to be rephrased or something. Because it's an interlude I'm trying to be artistic and having it dialogue-only, which I think works fine, but explains why there's no senses ;).

---

“Bless me father, for I have sinned. It has been eight years since my last confession.”

“I am glad that you have come back to the Lord after such a long time.”

“I accuse myself of a great many sins. But there is one sin in particular that is on my conscience, and led me to return after so long. I have become interested in one of my employees to an inappropriate degree, more than is proper of a gentleman.”

“Many of us are guilty of the sin of envy, my son.”

“I fear my… envy… will cause a scandal. It could ruin me.”

“Think not what effect your sins will have on you in this world, but in the kingdom of heaven.”

“My soul may be unsalvageable at this point.”

“Nobody who seeks penance is beyond heaven, least of all for the sin of envy. Have you acted on this desire?”

“Yes.”

“And were your affections returned?”

“Yes, though I worry that my infatuation is excessive, even given the circumstances.”

“It sounds as though you are behaving appropriately. As envy is the enemy of charity, remember to give alms to the poor, especially in these troubling times. Pray for guidance, make an effort to attend service and confession more often, and above all, continue live in chastity until you have been joined in the sacrament of marriage.”

“I will.”

“Now, say the act of contrition, if you know it.”

“O God, my God, I repent of all my sins with all my heart. I am heartily sorry not because of Thy just punishments, but above all because they offend Thee. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance and to amend. Amen.”

“Our Lord Jesus Christ absolve you; and I, by His authority I absolve you from every incurred excommunication and interdict, so as much as I can, and your needs require. I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.”

“Amen.”

“You remember the act of contrition well, after so many years.”

“I appreciate the opportunity to confess the sin for which I am so ashamed. Though there was one thing I forgot to mention.”

“Please tell it.”

“I confessed my secrets to a heretical priest, and I plan to kill him very, very shortly. Do you suppose the Lord would forgive me that, too?”

u/CCC_037 [+2] (2 months later)

that's not fair. That shouldn't even be allowed.

I believe this is a common reaction to guns, yes...

So, I guess they've got strong bones, great reflexes, and are always at least a little bit on guard for a bullet. Surround them with hollow points and you might just be able to bag yourself a vampire, but ever since hollow points were invented vampires have avoided putting themselves in situations like that.

That works! It also implies that you might be able to take down a vampire by (say) dropping a WWII bomb on his house and getting really lucky (but if you don't destroy the head on your first shot then you're in serious trouble because you won't get a second shot).

[excerpt]

“Many of us are guilty of the sin of envy, my son.”

What William has described is not the sin of Envy - Envy is more "I want what he's got", while what William is describing is clearly more along the lines of "I want him", which would be Lust. I'm not quite sure what you're going for here.

Especially since the Priest seems quite aware of what's going on later, but still keeps referring to it as 'envy'.

Have you acted on this desire?”

“Yes.”

“And were your affections returned?”

“Yes

So, William admits to behaving inappropriately...

“It sounds as though you are behaving appropriately.

???

Perhaps if William had stressed the maintenance of chastity somewhat in his previous reply, that might make sense...

“I confessed my secrets to a heretical priest, and I plan to kill him very, very shortly. Do you suppose the Lord would forgive me that, too?”

William has clearly gone a long, long way away from the Church, and I think this line really highlights just how far away he's gone. It makes a great ending to the excerpt, especially if there's some background mention, later, perhaps as a rumour or a headline, of the mysterious death and/or disappearance of an elderly Priest.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (3 months later)

That works! It also implies that you might be able to take down a vampire by (say) dropping a WWII bomb on his house and getting really lucky (but if you don't destroy the head on your first shot then you're in serious trouble because you won't get a second shot).

I think even if you didn't destroy her head with your bomb, you'd destroy her flesh/bones badly enough that she wouldn't be able to grow back before the "second shot" - fortunately, vampires don't really have access to explosives, or at the very least, don't really use them based on the evidence of the world as we know it.

(I think for the most part vampires don't want to kill each other, the same way humans don't want to kill each other for the most part).

“Many of us are guilty of the sin of envy, my son.”

What William has described is not the sin of Envy - Envy is more "I want what he's got", while what William is describing is clearly more along the lines of "I want him", which would be Lust. I'm not quite sure what you're going for here.

I chose envy because I was going for the covetousness rather than the "lust" part. I mean, I don't want to paint it as a sexual thing, and I think using the word 'lust' would... colour the narrative. I might use a different word than either lust or envy though.

Like, one source puts lust as "a craving for the pleasures of the body" - greed might be better than envy though for the situation at hand, and probably fits William's state of mind better.

okay, I think I've managed to re-frame it into a 'greed' mindset

Perhaps if William had stressed the maintenance of chastity somewhat in his previous reply, that might make sense...

Very good point, fixed!

“I confessed my secrets to a heretical priest, and I plan to kill him very, very shortly. Do you suppose the Lord would forgive me that, too?”

William has clearly gone a long, long way away from the Church, and I think this line really highlights just how far away he's gone. It makes a great ending to the excerpt, especially if there's some background mention, later, perhaps as a rumour or a headline, of the mysterious death and/or disappearance of an elderly Priest.

Ohh, I'd love to be able to put that in, but I don't know where. Maybe have Red list the news articles he's reading when he gets breakfast in the "oh he's a vampire" scene that comes up later on. "Red flicked through the paper, his rudimentary Italian giving him enough to make sense of the headlines. A shortage of butter, again. A call for people to donate to the war kitchens. An elderly priest had disappeared. A spate of thefts of farming equipment. An op-ed about whether the Americans were torturing Italians."

---

excerpt of interlude

---

“I accuse myself of a great many sins. But there is one sin in particular that is on my conscience, and led me to return after so long. I have become interested in one of my employees to an inappropriate degree, more than is proper of a gentleman.”

“Many of us are guilty of that sin, my son. It can be a form of greed, where the pursuit of things in the mortal realm is done without regard for the eternal. Is that why you have come today?”

“Not precisely. I fear my… greed… will cause a scandal. It could ruin me.”

“You are speaking of material things. Think not what effect your sins will have on you in this world, but on your soul in the kingdom of heaven.”

“My soul may be unsalvageable at this point.”

“Nobody who seeks penance is beyond heaven, least of all for the sin of envy. Have you acted on this desire?”

“Yes, though not to the point of committing the sin of adultery. Though I worry that my infatuation is excessive, even given the circumstances.”

“It sounds as though you are behaving as appropriately as can be expected. As greed is the enemy of charity, remember to give alms to the poor, especially in times such as these. Pray for guidance, make an effort to attend service and confession more often, and above all, continue live in chastity until you have been joined in the sacrament of marriage.”

u/CCC_037 [+2] (3 months later)

I think even if you didn't destroy her head with your bomb, you'd destroy her flesh/bones badly enough that she wouldn't be able to grow back before the "second shot" - fortunately, vampires don't really have access to explosives, or at the very least, don't really use them based on the evidence of the world as we know it.

I suppose that depends how long it takes you to get to the airfield for a reload and back again.

I chose envy because I was going for the covetousness rather than the "lust" part.

Okay, I can see how that would work under 'greed' - he wants Red as a possession, more or less, a position that he shows off to enhance his social standing among other vampires. I still don't think it makes him envious of Red, but I can see how he might think that, which is enough for the scene.

Maybe have Red list the news articles he's reading when he gets breakfast in the "oh he's a vampire" scene that comes up later on. "Red flicked through the paper, his rudimentary Italian giving him enough to make sense of the headlines. A shortage of butter, again. A call for people to donate to the war kitchens. An elderly priest had disappeared. A spate of thefts of farming equipment. An op-ed about whether the Americans were torturing Italians."

Perfect. Just a little, blink-and-you-miss-it background moment.

[excerpt of interlude]

Significantly improved, I think, though the priest switches from describing William's situation as 'greed' to saying "least of all for the sin of envy" out of nowhere. But William's point about not committing adultery is, I think, very important to include; it makes the priest's following comments make sense.

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (3 months later)

I suppose that depends how long it takes you to get to the airfield for a reload and back again.

As though you wouldn't take two bombs, or at the very least, one bomb and a reasonably expendable ghoul who can comb through the wreckage and confirm the heart has been separated from the brain / drag the corpse out so it'll be caught in the sun?

I still don't think it makes him envious of Red

Not being envious of Red, precisely, but envious of either Red's actual owner (Cassius, who William hasn't purchased Red from yet), or of Red's hypothetical-but-potentially-real-for-all-William-knows boy/girlfriend.

Really I tried to frame the scene as William being worried that his desire for Red is excessive, and he's worried that rather than wanting Red as a status symbol, he's going to end up too attached and do something stupid. (“Not precisely. I fear my… greed… will cause a scandal. It could ruin me.”)

Because a Big Powerful Vampire who wants to go through the exercise of talking to a random mook is not going to really care that he wants to possess Red to show off to other vampires, since that's the whole point; he cares that he's risking getting too attached. I wonder if that gets across clearly enough?

though the priest switches from describing William's situation as 'greed' to saying "least of all for the sin of envy" out of nowhere

that was a typo, i switched it back to 'greed' in the original document but I obviously didn't think to edit the reddit post :)

But William's point about not committing adultery is, I think, very important to include

I worry that it might be confusing; does the average person think adultery is purely marital infidelity, or do they know it applies to out of wedlock sex equally? I'm worried that line might have someon ego "wait, what, does one of them have a wife we don't know about?!"

u/CCC_037 [+2] (3 months later)

As though you wouldn't take two bombs

I don't think WWII bombers permitted multiple shots. I mean, sure, you could take two bombs, but there's only one set of bomb bay doors and when you open them everything falls out at once...

Though yes, there are better ways to destroy a vampire than using a WWII bomber.

Not being envious of Red, precisely, but envious of either Red's actual owner (Cassius, who William hasn't purchased Red from yet), or of Red's hypothetical-but-potentially-real-for-all-William-knows boy/girlfriend.

...that makes way more sense, yes. In that sense, 'envy' seems appropriate - but if he starts discussing purchasing Red from Cassius, then the priest might just start talking about the evils of slavery, so I can see why William didn't broach that topic.

Really I tried to frame the scene as William being worried that his desire for Red is excessive, and he's worried that rather than wanting Red as a status symbol, he's going to end up too attached and do something stupid. (“Not precisely. I fear my… greed… will cause a scandal. It could ruin me.”)

I know it's not what William meant, but that phrase almost makes it sound like he's afraid of a photo of him kissing Red appearing in the local paper.

Because a Big Powerful Vampire who wants to go through the exercise of talking to a random mook is not going to really care that he wants to possess Red to show off to other vampires, since that's the whole point; he cares that he's risking getting too attached. I wonder if that gets across clearly enough?

Hmmm. It doesn't come across clearly; but there's nothing that explicitly contradicts it.

On the other hand, I don't think it's possible to make it come across clearly in that dialogue-only section without revealing a number of things to the elderly priest that William will not want to spell out. (Ideally, that scene should work with others - perhaps with another interlude including a discussion with a fellow vampire).

I worry that it might be confusing; does the average person think adultery is purely marital infidelity, or do they know it applies to out of wedlock sex equally?

Iknow that it applies to out-of-wedlock sex. I have no idea whether or not the average person knows that. (My instinct is to say 'yes', but my instincts almost always assume by default that the average person knows what I do so they're not reliable here).

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (3 months later)

I mean, sure, you could take two bombs, but there's only one set of bomb bay doors and when you open them everything falls out at once...

So, take two bombers ;). Anyway, like you said, there's more than one way to kill a vampire!

I know it's not what William meant, but that phrase almost makes it sound like he's afraid of a photo of him kissing Red appearing in the local paper.

Well, replace "local paper" with "vampire rumour mill", and that's exactly what he's concerned about: he thinks it's going to become fashionable, but right now it's shameful. He wants to be on the forefront of the new fashion / was kind of emotionally moved by the opera he saw at he beginning of the story.

I don't think it's possible to make it come across clearly in that dialogue-only section without revealing a number of things to the elderly priest that William will not want to spell out

Yeah, we'll call it "mysterious" and "artistic" :)

I know that it applies to out-of-wedlock sex. I have no idea whether or not the average person knows that.

Oh well, people will just have to learn / expand their horizons and/or be confused. :P

u/CCC_037 [+2] (3 months later)

Anyway, like you said, there's more than one way to kill a vampire!

Yeah... bombers are hard enough to aim at a building-sized object. Never mind a human-sized one who can hear them falling and move quickly.

...better to use dynamite, preferably during the day.

Well, replace "local paper" with "vampire rumour mill", and that's exactly what he's concerned about: he thinks it's going to become fashionable, but right now it's shameful. He wants to be on the forefront of the new fashion / was kind of emotionally moved by the opera he saw at he beginning of the story.

...you know, I completely misunderstood that, then. I thought the 'scandal' he was worried about was the scandal of being actually attached to his decorative human, and that the opera at the beginning had been the start of the trend.

Oh well, people will just have to learn / expand their horizons and/or be confused. :P

I am all in favour of encouraging people to learn. On the subject of obscure words, have you ever come across a board game called 'Balderdash'?

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (3 months later)

...better to use dynamite, preferably during the day.

William kills another vampire in the story (though it's left artistically vague: a whole chapter that's like 9 words long; it's also in present tense at the advice of my husband who said it was really cool to have a stylistic departure like that but i should make it even more departing by moving it to present tense, so go artisticness), and he does it by fighting them hand to hand (and creaming them because he's old) and then setting the house on fire. I think that's probably the easiest way to do it.

I thought the 'scandal' he was worried about was the scandal of being actually attached to his decorative human, and that the opera at the beginning had been the start of the trend.

I don't really understand this sentence, can you clarify? What do you mean by "actually attached"? Oh, wait, I think I got it - as it stands now, if another vampire sees him with a devoted human lover, they think, "oh, William is really good at pretending to care about humans! He must be smart, patient, and spend his time well because humans require so much of it", the same way I'm impressed with people who have very well-trained dogs? And upon finding out that William actually is in love with Red, the reaction might be the same as if someone told me they were actually in love with their well-trained dog? As in, firstly, could you have a meaningful relationship with an animal; and secondly, eew?

The vampire-human trend is something William's predicting; as written, I have William going into scandal when he saves Red's life because the trend hasn't happened yet. I could re-cast that scene so the scandal is because he's actually in love with Red, rather than because he had a human lover, but I don't think a vampire trend catches on within a year; more like 5 years.

On the subject of obscure words, have you ever come across a board game called 'Balderdash'?

Yes I have! It's good fun. I've played a varient called the dictionary game (I think) where you get one of those big unabridged dictionaries and look up words and people have to make up definitions (so it's the same as that one sub-game of balderdash).

u/CCC_037 [+2] (3 months later)

William kills another vampire in the story ... and he does it by fighting them hand to hand (and creaming them because he's old) and then setting the house on fire. I think that's probably the easiest way to do it.

That's certainly one way for a vampire to do it. A (human) vampire hunter would be best helped by taking advantage of the Daylight Torpor, since he won't be able to handle vampire strength otherwise.

What do you mean by "actually attached"? Oh, wait, I think I got it - as it stands now, if another vampire sees him with a devoted human lover, they think, "oh, William is really good at pretending to care about humans! He must be smart, patient, and spend his time well because humans require so much of it", the same way I'm impressed with people who have very well-trained dogs? And upon finding out that William actually is in love with Red, the reaction might be the same as if someone told me they were actually in love with their well-trained dog? As in, firstly, could you have a meaningful relationship with an animal; and secondly, eew?

You have it exactly. (In fact, thinking about it, the relationship between the average vampire and their thrall is going to be pretty close to human-with-well-trained-dog).

The vampire-human trend is something William's predicting;

And if William is predicting it, then surely the other senior vampires are predicting it too?

Yes I have! It's good fun. I've played a varient called the dictionary game (I think) where you get one of those big unabridged dictionaries and look up words and people have to make up definitions (so it's the same as that one sub-game of balderdash).

And good for vocabulary as well.

While no book should have the average reader reaching for a dictionary every page, I think it's a good thing to require the average reader to reach for a dictionary once in the entire story; and Balderdash is an incredible resource of poorly-known words. (Pratchett was a master at this).

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (3 months later)

And if William is predicting it, then surely the other senior vampires are predicting it too?

Some are predicting it, some are predicting it'll still be untrendy later on.

I guess it's kind of like name trends - with Twilight, Isabella seems to have been popular largely at the same time as the book/movie phenomenon, but other names in the story like Jacob and Edward didn't. (Jacob was already a hugely popular name, Isabella has a huge peak). Anna has a small spike in popularity coinciding with Frozen; Elsa has a massive one. And Hans, Sven, and Olaf didn't spike at all.

So some movies have "hot" elements, some don't catch on so much. So William's thinking the human thing will be hot; turns out it's a dud.

I think it's a good thing to require the average reader to reach for a dictionary once in the entire story

Very true! The only word that's like that in the story is janissary, and that passes through pretty quietly. I don't think anyone's going to reach for a dictionary with the reference to "adultery"; they just might be confused about the lack of wives in the picture.

And in the reader's mind it'll take the form of something like, "oh, William's moved Red to his house in Australia, he has a wife there doesn't he? I remember it was mentioned somewhere that William had a wife" - they won't remember the word adultery got them there.

Again, doesn't matter anyway.

u/CCC_037 [+2] (3 months later)

So William's thinking the human thing will be hot; turns out it's a dud.

Ah. So, it's not as obvious as I thought it was supposed to be from the intro - and the reason why the other elder vampires aren't already working towards this trend is simply that it isn't going to be a trend. (Perhaps some Elder Vampires are subtly pushing for it to become a trend, but they are being outpushed by the Elder Vampires who just don't want to have to waste their time dealing with stupid smelly humans.)

Very true! The only word that's like that in the story is janissary, and that passes through pretty quietly.

A vampire story is the perfect place to slip in the word "exsanguinate".

I don't think anyone's going to reach for a dictionary with the reference to "adultery"; they just might be confused about the lack of wives in the picture.

And in the reader's mind it'll take the form of something like, "oh, William's moved Red to his house in Australia, he has a wife there doesn't he? I remember it was mentioned somewhere that William had a wife" - they won't remember the word adultery got them there.

Again, doesn't matter anyway.

Valid points. Bear in mind that no two readers are the same; probably less than a tenth of your readers will think that way, because probably less than a tenth of your readers will think any particular way. (It's not particularly important in this case, but it's worth bearing in mind in other situations).

u/MagicWeasel [+2] Cheela Astronaut (3 months later)

Perhaps some Elder Vampires are subtly pushing for it to become a trend, but they are being outpushed by the Elder Vampires who just don't want to have to waste their time dealing with stupid smelly humans.

This is what's probably happening; plus, there are plenty of vampires who romance humans to various extents anyway, and it serves as a good marker of someone who doesn't have their priorities in order if it remains untrendy.

A vampire story is the perfect place to slip in the word "exsanguinate".

I swear there's a big word in the chapter that i'm hoping to release in 48 hours... can I find it... Oh, I think it's "stiletto", used to mean the knife.

probably less than a tenth of your readers will think that way, because probably less than a tenth of your readers will think any particular way. (It's not particularly important in this case, but it's worth bearing in mind in other situations).

For a second there I thought you were saying nobody would think about the story at all (which is patently untrue as I've got some lovely thoughtful comments on the chapter threads!), but then I realised you meant any one way and I felt a lot better :).

I think it depends how particular you get, though. I mean, if I do my job right, most people are going to like Red, many people will root for the relationship, many people will be intrigued by the William/Cassius dynamic, etc. I follow Survivor very closely and the fans of that show do tend to propose the same theories/ideas/etc a lot.

But specific lines of thought about a character having a wife based on a misunderstanding of a word that was used in the third chapter? totally see your point.

u/CCC_037 [+1] (3 months later)

This is what's probably happening; plus, there are plenty of vampires who romance humans to various extents anyway, and it serves as a good marker of someone who doesn't have their priorities in order if it remains untrendy.

That opera in the prologue, actually, is probably a specific move by a vampire who wants it to be trendy - perhaps even in a deliberate attempt to distract everyone else while he deliberately bucks the trend himself.

I swear there's a big word in the chapter that i'm hoping to release in 48 hours... can I find it... Oh, I think it's "stiletto", used to mean the knife.

...I don't know whether to bemoan general educational standards in general or not. Stiletto. Is that really something that most people are going to have to look up?

(It's a serious question. I read a lot, so I know I have a bigger vocabulary than most people, but I thought that was mostly in the really rare words, like doyenne, or drupe, or exsanguinate. Is 'stiletto' really something that most people will have to look up?)

For a second there I thought you were saying nobody would think about the story at all (which is patently untrue as I've got some lovely thoughtful comments on the chapter threads!), but then I realised you meant any one way and I felt a lot better :).

Eeyup. I mean, consider your next paragraph:

I mean, if I do my job right, most people are going to like Red, many people will root for the relationship, many people will be intrigued by the William/Cassius dynamic, etc.

You will get people who like Red, for reason A. Others who like him for reason B, and a third group who like him because C. And then you'll get those who really don't care much about Red one way or another (but perhaps like William, or Cassius, or your scene descriptions, or your worldbuilding, or any number of other things). And then there will be those who really don't like Red for one reason or another, but perhaps they like something else. And you will inevitably get some people who like a thing that you did not even realise you were putting in the book in the first place (but you go and look, and voila, there it is, somehow).

So, yeah, anyone who reads anything you write will clearly think something about it - at the very least, reconstructing the scene in their own heads. Just not in exactly the same way as anyone else.

I follow Survivor very closely and the fans of that show do tend to propose the same theories/ideas/etc a lot.

Funny thing - people in the same group tend to take the same fanon for granted, after long enough. But two completely disparate groups of fans of some work, without any contact, will evolve entirely separate fanons based on entirely different unspoken assumptions... and will thus develop entirely different branches of theories.

u/MagicWeasel [+1] Cheela Astronaut (3 months later)

That opera in the prologue, actually, is probably a specific move by a vampire who wants it to be trendy - perhaps even in a deliberate attempt to distract everyone else while he deliberately bucks the trend himself.

Ohhh, that's a good point.

Also, kind of off-topic, but I kind of realised that it makes perfect sense for William to be one of the vampire actors who act in these things (not in the particular one he visited at the beginning of the novel, of course, but in others). I think I'll see if I can work him acting in an opera as the main "thing" that happens in the second volume - or you know, a major subplot or something. It's all around Red and his fear of death and deciding he wants the immortality that being a thrall brings, so it might be a good foil: William is an actor partly because it gives him fame and immortality even amongst vampires (since he remembers fondly plays that he saw a thousand years earlier, delivered by long-dead vampires), and Red wants the more conventional sort of immortality.

...I don't know whether to bemoan general educational standards in general or not. Stiletto. Is that really something that most people are going to have to look up?

I don't know, honestly. I also was thinking about tricky words as I was doing some proofreading and I noticed the words "sartorial" and "somnolent", both of which I had to look up to put them in the book. (Somnolent I would have worked out from roots and context, but I didn't have an "adjective that means pertaining to sleep" at the top of my mind when I was writing it even though I needed one).

And then there will be those who really don't like Red for one reason or another, but perhaps they like something else.

Haha, CouteauBleau read it and hated Red because he was stupid, but hated just about everything (which as I said before was great because I improved a lot of the stuff he hated - no doubt he still does hate it, but at least other people who are more predisposed to enjoy my work than he will benefit from his patience with reading the damn thing).

And you will inevitably get some people who like a thing that you did not even realise you were putting in the book in the first place (but you go and look, and voila, there it is, somehow).

My partner, upon reading the first draft said:

"The dog thing was too obvious by the way, it was like you were hitting me over the head with it"

"... dog thing?"

"Yeah, the whole dog thing. You should be more subtle."

"... about what? We wanted to give Red a dog because he likes dogs."

"... wait, so it wasn't a, the vampire gets a pet human and the human gets a pet dog parallel?"

And there was a line from the chapter we've just posted to the main sub which has a bit that reads:

He delivered a small statue of a bull to one apartment that had seemed refreshingly normal from the outside; but when the servant opened the door, the room was filled with peacocks. He couldn’t see the floor for the sheer number of them. They were huddled so close together that Red solemnly wondered whether they could move much at all. He felt sorry for them.

He wondered if he could sneak in and free them.

And my partner was like, "you should elaborate more on what you mean with the whole peacock thing."

"What?"

"The peacock thing, it's foreshadowing for the slavery argument, right? Showing how he cares about welfare?"

"No, I just thought that if vampires give each other flocks of birds as gifts that sometimes you'll have peacocks all over your floor for a few decades and it's nbd"

"...oh"

"But did you like my foreshadowing in another part of the chapter, with the thing with the cup of coffee spilling?"

"What foreshadowing?"

"Remember how the climax of the story is because Red spills a cup of blood?"

"... oh, right. I didn't get that at all."

So yeah.... you are definitely onto something....

u/CCC_037 [+1] (3 months later)

Also, kind of off-topic, but I kind of realised that it makes perfect sense for William to be one of the vampire actors who act in these things

William is hundreds of years old. He's had time to be just about everything, at one point or another.

William is an actor partly because it gives him fame and immortality even amongst vampires (since he remembers fondly plays that he saw a thousand years earlier, delivered by long-dead vampires), and Red wants the more conventional sort of immortality.

That could certainly make a good contrast, yes.

"... wait, so it wasn't a, the vampire gets a pet human and the human gets a pet dog parallel?"

To be fair, that is an excellent parallel...

And my partner was like, "you should elaborate more on what you mean with the whole peacock thing."

"What foreshadowing?"

Believe it or not, that's a constant in practically any writing. But it gets worse. Have you ever heard of something called "Magnum Opus Dissonance"?

...short version, imagine that you have two stories. One is the personal darling of a master in the craft, the story that he polished and refined and polished and refined until it gleams, with not a single word out of place, every last element a matter of utter perfection. The second story is something he banged out in a rush because he had a deadline, or to just make a quick buck. And then the first story does okay - not brilliantly, just okay - and the second grows a virtually instant fandom to rival those of Star Trek or Twilight.

...

Believe it or not, this is apparently more common than one would expect.

u/MagicWeasel [+1] Cheela Astronaut (3 months later)

To be fair, [the dog thing] is an excellent parallel...

I know, but we honestly didn't think of it. We're going to lean into it a bit, of course.

Have you ever heard of something called "Magnum Opus Dissonance"?

Oh, sure have.

---

okay i should probably find you an excerpt. Let's do a scene I just got some feedback from and am struggling with a bit: the "btw sweetheart i'm a vampire" scene, which apparently sounds manipulative in a bad way especially in that he bites Red without consent. Which I'm not altogether against, but I don't want people to dislike it. And then I realised that maybe having him be like "i'm a vampire btw sweetie" and then bite him would subvert the usual parts of the trope where it's all mysterious and "the vampire doesn't say the word vampire".

I figure you're going to have a good perspective on how this is written mechanically and the believability of the reactions in context, and I think that'll be really valuable to work out how and what to fiddle with, so thanks in advance!

---

[the Americans are going to take Rome and Red is scared of being caught and wants to flee]

“I’m sorry, William. This isn’t your problem. I shouldn't….I shouldn’t have said anything.”

"You have nothing to fear," he responded calmly.

“Yes, I do.” Red looked at him blankly. “An American in occupied territory? I’d be lucky if they don’t think I’m a Nazi spy!” He pulled his hands away from William’s. “I’m sorry. I would have loved to stay with you, but I have to go. I have to run before they -”

“You will do no such thing.”

“Are you going to hand me in?” Red's heart started thudding, harder than when it was addled by the cocktail of lust, fear and passion. This was pure fear, a fear that began to seep out of him, almost choking in its strength.

“I would never hand you to the Americans for execution.”

“Oh thank god.” The tension in his shoulders relaxed, before he stood a bit straighter, remembering his honour. “But I can’t drag you into this. You’ve shown me a lot of kindness, and if you're caught with me they could imprison you on something else.”

“Come.” He smiled, pulling Red into a tight embrace. “Reginald, you will be quite safe with me, I assure you.”

Red looked like he was going to argue, but relaxed into the hug, clinging to William. “Everyone... everyone back home calls me Red. You can, if you like.”

He kissed Red’s temple. “I promise you shall be safe with me. I am more powerful than you think.”

“More powerful than the American army?” Red asked, though his voice did not betray the slightest bit of disbelief. He believed in William, a lot more than he ever believed in anything else.

“Powerful enough, Red.”

“Are we going to stay in Italy?” he asked, trusting. “Or do we run?”

“I was planning on travelling Europe for a time.”

“But how are we going to leave Italy? The Americans are coming, and the Germans are so cautious about their borders…”

“I have my ways,” he said, with a calm completely at odds with the way Red was feeling. “But first, there is something I should show you.”

“Oh?”

“Remember when I told you that all men have their secrets?”

“...Yes?” Red wasn’t quite sure what to expect. Was he a spy after all?

William paused for a moment, gently placing his right hand on Red’s left temple and tilting it to the side. He placed his face against Red’s neck, inhaling deeply through his nose, feeling the warmth of Red’s skin.

“You smell excellent.”

Red's fingers encircled William’s left wrist, hesitant, but not fighting back. “What are you doing?”

“Be calm, my dear,” he murmured, running his tongue along the underside of his teeth. Red caught the briefest glimpse of William's canines—were they always that long?—before he plunged them into his neck.

The feeling was immediate and intense. It was a rush like nothing he’d ever experienced. It felt as though every part of his brain was exploding with pleasure. His extremities tingled, and then went numb. He could feel the shadows of William’s mind upon him: lust and intoxication, confidence, strength, and a shocking intelligence. He could almost feel his very life-force leaving him, and joining into William’s empty body along with his warm, wet blood.

After what seemed like only a moment, far too short a moment, William’s mouth left Red’s neck. William firmly placed the fingers of his right hand on the small puncture wounds. They began clotting almost immediately.

Red stepped back, out of William’s reach, his arms. Red’s fingers moved to his neck to feel the drying scabs that had formed there. He had expected to feel blood trickling down his neck, or… he wasn’t exactly sure what should be there. He took his still-tingling fingers off his neck and examined them; they were smeared with his warm blood, but not nearly as much as he would have expected. It was more like he’d given himself a particularly nasty cut shaving than anything else.

“What… what was that? What did you do?” Red asked, finally.

William had been studying Red; this wasn’t his first time biting a human, but the extra layer of intimacy was a new challenge for him. He didn’t want to make a mistake, here, not after spending so long growing to understand Red, and building his trust. And Red had been getting more interesting by the day.

“Did you enjoy it?” He settled on replying, finally; not answering either of Red’s questions.

Red hesitated. He pushed down on the wound again, instinctively, still not sure what he should expect to have found there. “I did.”

“I’m glad to hear that.” William nodded, as though he hadn’t expected any other response. He had, though; usually, they asked for him to continue feeding; sometimes, they even begged. But Red wasn’t like the others; he hadn’t come to William, looking for the thrill he had heard about in the whispers of the clientele of disreputable establishments. No, he was here because he liked William; and William found that he liked that. William leaned slightly forward, almost imperceptibly, to monitor Red’s reaction.

Red stepped back, just a little. It was a completely unconscious movement. “Did you bite me? Did you really just bite me?” he demanded, more incredulous than scared.

“Yes.” William took a small step backwards.

“Why isn’t it bleeding?” Red murmured, touching the scab again. “I feel like it should still be bleeding.”

William smiled. “You will find there are many other benefits.”

Red stared, not having any idea how to respond. William’s first instinct was to dismiss Red, to accept he wouldn’t come back; there were some that didn’t come back, after all, and it made sense not to worry about them. But he knew Red would return, that he was interested in William regardless of the boons.

“I will need to make arrangements for our departure,” William said finally.

Red considered it a few moments, processing. “Right. What do you need me to do?” He took his hand from his neck, holding his hands in front of his stomach, self-conscious about where he held them.

“Nothing, for now. Just make sure you are prepared to leave at a moment’s notice.”

“I can do that.” Red studied his hands, looking at the rough, sun-damaged skin around his knuckles. “If you do think of anything… I feel good. I feel like I could do anything right now.”

William took a step towards Red, reaching to hold his hands. “Excellent. You will need that strength for the journey.”

u/HieronymusBeta [+1] (13 days later)

Asimov

Isaac Asimov aka The Good Doctor

u/Laborbuch [+2] (a day later)

Have the plague be something for which vampires aren’t actually intentionally infected, but as a side effect. Like a parasite (mustn’t be particularly relevant) that as part of its lifecycle goes through three different hosts: A, B, C. Let’s say C is the primary host in which the parasite reaches (sexual) maturity. B is a required intermediary host, and A is also a required host. Let’s say primates are an intermediary host. Relevant and important for the lifecycle of the parasite, but not that important from the parasite’s point of view. To add insult to injury, let’s say the primary and for reproduction relevant host are rats or something equally ubiquitous at the time. Ideally some organism that became widespread at the time, but was only local before (to account for the lack of ‘plague’ before that time).

Since humans are primates and vampires are arguably human, they also get infected often enough. Now in regular primates the immune systems is tricked or some such so that the parasite can complete its stage and pass through the organism without too much damage (hopefully), but what if the vampire nanites dealt with the parasite swiftly, but due to unique markers and proteins in that parasite an apoptosis or delayed self-destruct program is triggered in them? The cascade may take some time to propagate through the body (i.e. sickness symptoms as nanites shut down throughout the body), but will eventually succeed and be fatal.

That way you can have a ‘plague’ that was uniquely deadly to vampires, but only them. Regular humans would be carriers of the parasite and vampires might infect themselves by drinking an infected’s blood (up to you, as long as you stay consistent). An upside/downside to this is you establish proteins/markers as one way of communicating with the nanites. Maybe only to trigger present programs, but still.

u/MagicWeasel [+1] Cheela Astronaut (a day later)

The problem as I see it with that is getting the vectors around the world: there have been humans in Australia for 60,000 years, so you'd need those rats to be there (which aren't native to Australia, and 1700 precedes European first contact). So basically, if I want there to be vampires on Australia who are just affected as vampires in the slums of Berlin, you are really having to stretch.

You still basically have the same problems of needing a plague to spread from Europe to Asia to the Americas to Africa to Australia, just you create a hell of a lot more vectors. (Mosquitos? But there's no malaria in Australia either).

u/Laborbuch [+2] (a day later)

Sorry, during writing the explanation flipped more than once as I realised what you were aiming for, and this isn’t adequately represented in my previous post.

What I meant to say: What about an animal or species that became ubiquitous (or widespread enough) at the time of the plague but was a relatively local species before? Something like how potatoes were a food crop in South America, but then got introduced in Europe. Dunno which species would account for the whole world. Probably something like naval shipworm or another more incidental species.

Mind, I’m just throwing ideas out there.

u/MagicWeasel [+1] Cheela Astronaut (a day later)

Unfortunately, you still end up with the problem of Australia, which was isolated from the rest of the world until c. 1750 - and let's not even get started on New Zealand which was the same but moreso.

u/genericaccounter [+2] (8 hours later)

First question I would like to ask. Why does the war have to have a reasonable reason? Does it affect the story if they did? If the guy must have a reasonable reason, say the main character worked for them and you are trying prevent the negative associations of having worked for a murderous bastard, may I suggest considering how many vampires ate people and did how many people they hurt or killed. If the number is high enough you might be able to portray them positively. However, you should consider multiple perspectives seriously as if you attempt to suggest they were totally justified your reader might complain. In addition, I can say from a previous attempt at asking, that a vampire who must kill once a month and cannot avoid it which is much higher that your story would find sustainable, still has people saying that it is still not okay to kill them on principle so you might have some difficulty managing to persuade people he was a saint, but if you do it right you should be able to convince people he might have had a reason.

u/MagicWeasel [+1] Cheela Astronaut (9 hours later)

Why does the war have to have a reasonable reason?

Rules of Rational fiction: characters should do stuff based on their own feasible motivations, rather than because the plot demands it. At the moment the Catastrophe happens because I like the idea of vampires going through a population bottleneck, so I don't want that Catastrophe to seem... weird or cheap or like an asspull.

If the number [of people vampires kill] is high enough you might be able to portray them positively.

Yeah, that's basically the sort of thing I have going down: the problem is, the older a vampire is, the more powerful they are, and it's basically logarithmic (not quite, but a 500 year old vampire can beat an arbitrary number of 50 year old vampires in a brawl). So vampires who aren't comfortable subjugating humans end up likely being killed by older vampires.

I can say from a previous attempt at asking, that a vampire who must kill once a month and cannot avoid it which is much higher that your story would find sustainable

Fortunately, My Vampires almost without exception do not kill their humans; humans benefit from being fed on (the experience itself is pleasurable, and afterwards they have a cocktail of vampire-produced drugs in their bloodstream that basically lets them be on Ritalin and Modafinil for a month or so). William is a particularly irresponsible vampire in the human killing department and he kills maybe one a year, despite feeding 120+ times a year on a stable of 10-15 humans.

Do you think there's a reason to go with a war rather than a plague?

u/ben_oni [+2] (a day later)

Why not both? War, immediately followed by plague. Double-whammy, and suddenly, all the vampires are gone. Or perhaps a sequence of events even more complicated.

u/MagicWeasel [+1] Cheela Astronaut (a day later)

Further down, there's discussion of a mechanism for the Plague - a Y2K type bug (really: any bug that is activated by their own internal clock) in the vampire nanites that some "corrupted" nanites are immune to.

You end up with all the surviving vampires being from one "bloodline" so to speak, and if the bloodline is old enough there might not be anyone alive who remembers that the bloodlines are all related; so it could look like the spell didn't affect "a few dozen" vampire bloodlines, and that could potentially cause infighting.

u/kotoshin [+1] (a day later)

Dating system problem in fictional world (and general planetary system/weather/seasons issues).

How do you plan for a hypothetically habitable world with 2 suns (in a stable orbit around each other) and three moons?

I sort of got around the 2 suns issue by looking at how a similiarly rational world building/setting (Hello Helliconia!) dealt with it, but three moons is kind of .. interesting. The world likely has fun weather and tidal cycles hurhur at the very least.

u/Laborbuch [+5] (a day later)

Thank god for parenthesis in the opening paragraph, at first I was wondering if you were writing a rational dating sim story.

Binary star planetary habitability can be categorised in basically two kinds: S-type orbits and P-type orbits. In the former the planet orbits one of the two stars, in the latter the planet orbits both (circumbinary). Due to orbital dynamics one can’t switch willy-nilly between the two; there are ranges at which a planet will be swiftly kicked out of the system.

For clarity purposes I name one sun Sol, the other Helios.

S-type: If the planet’s distance to Sol exceeds about one fifth of Sol’s closest approach to Helios, orbital stability is not guaranteed.

P-type: distance planet-barycentre >> distance Sol-Helios (by a factor of 2–4 at least).

To put all this in perspective with two smaller stars with a sum mass of our current star, because I like for Earth not to burn up for now, for P-type the two suns would need to be about .1–.4 AUs distant from each other, which is about Mercury’s orbit or quite a bit less. And there would be no Mercury or Venus in this world, obviously. For an S-type, well, Earth would probably need to be in Venus’ orbit or closer and the other sun not be much closer orbiting than Jupiter, to put them on the scale of our solar system.

Keep in mind these are the limiting cases, you may want to have some leeway before deciding on this right now.

As for the three moons… well, unless you have one major moon (like ours) and a couple lesser, well, it becomes relatively chaotic and unstable. The three body problem is a thing here. The gas giants get around this by having minor moons, speaking in relation to the respective masses involved, whereas an argument could be made that Earth and the moon are more like a double planet than a single planet + moon. Within our solar system Earth and Luna are the exception at least, not the rule.

Did you consider flipping the whole thing around? Have the world be an inhabitable moon of a gas giant in the Goldilocks zone, with multiple similarly sized moons whizzing about? I’d consider this a fun exercise in world building ;)

u/kotoshin [+1] (a day later)

First off, thanks for the reply!

I might as well be in some ways due to the fandom this fic plans to be set in. I think too much about making sense of childhood nostalgia.

It's s-type orbit due to plot reasons. (Plus this was originally a three star system on formation that ejected the third -it's relevant later yay)

There's interstellar travel and colonization planned in later story arcs and in background so your suggestion is definitely possible ... In another part of the story XD

And yes, I've been told given the work I'm putting in here I might as well file off the serial numbers and do original fic XD

My problem is without the original fandom characters I'm basing off, a lot of the plot would require more world building.

And damn Kyrnn for magic hand waving the whole three moons/constellation thing being deities.

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