84 KiB
[RT] [HF] Mother of Learning Chapter 80: Enemies
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Author: u/Xtraordinaire Team Glimglam*
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URL: https://www.fictionpress.com/s/2961893/80/Mother-of-Learning
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Score: 244
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Created: 2018-01-25T00:26:54
Post:
Comments:
u/Anderkent [+130] (8 minutes later)
"Yeah, can we have the crown?" "Sure thing"
The end.
u/xachariah [+89] (4 hours later)
They're going to sit down for a drink and bond over having sweet magic like simulacrums and transcontinental portals and stuff. QI will tell them Ulquan Ibasa and they'll probably come to some common ground.
Then Zorian will convince QI to be his new tutor, so he can have the full set of "you got who to teach you what?"
u/Quetzhal [+70] (5 hours later)
While I know you're joking, I kind of wish this would happen. It's a nice step away from the lich cliche, and I'm kind of interested in learning more about the character.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+50] (7 hours later)
Agreed. Quatach Ichl is utterly fascinating.
u/None [+8] (12 hours later)
[deleted]
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+41] (15 hours later)
If you don't find the fleshing out of a millennium old archmage interesting, I don't know what to tell you---especially given the amount of world building that this story usually has going on in the background. I find pretty much all of Zorian's teachers intriguing and they're merely normal aged.
u/None [+7] (a day later)
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u/throwawayIWGWPC [+15] (a day later)
i'd argue a generic lich is merely a lich with a back story that hasn't been sufficiently fleshed out. Anyone who has lived a life that is simultaneously highly academic, aggressively power-seeking, and has a built-in resurrection point is likely to have a compelling story.
u/SevereCircle [+1] (29 days later)
(just caught up and rereading threads, sorry for thread necromancy heh heh)
I'm asking what's "utterly fascinating" about him so far, as he's been a pretty generic lich so far with what little we've seen of him. I like his portrayal so far but it's not like we know much of his character other than that he's patient and non-omnicidal like a stereotypical lich.
Mysteriousness+importance+competence is pretty cool when it's done right. The three biggest things that audiences like in characters are being proactive, being competent, and being good. Many villains do two out of three and people end up liking them.
Mysteriousness without payoff sucks but I'd be shocked if that happened given how excellent the story is.
u/None [+8] (a day later)
What about the way the troops under his direct command adore him for the way he treats them, valuing their lives highly? That isn't exactly bog standard lich behaviouf.
u/None [+5] (a day later)
[deleted]
u/GeraldVanHeer [+3] (5 days later)
Actually, it wasn't that he'd kill them -- they were worried that he'd demote them and otherwise humiliate them. Ibasan leadership are more fond of executions, but QI is a "General Mattis" among the Ibasan forces present.
Again, as far as I'm aware. I could be 100% wrong.
u/jaghataikhan [+7] Primarch of the White Scars (23 hours later)
I mean, he's literally a candidate for the greatest (arch)mage alive (well, you know what I mean haha) and probably up there on the list of GOATs given hes lived for millenia and literally outlasted gods themselves
Incidentally, because of his unique perspective (age, experience, tendency to treat ordinarily mortal threats cavalierly, soul expertise, etc) hes one of the few people who can truly relate to Z&Z (the immortals such as silver Lake are probably the next closest)
u/silver7017 [+41] (9 hours later)
I am aware that you are joking, but it would actually be a really good (and more importantly, reliable) way to short circuit what would otherwise be an ungodly amount of effort and which isn't even guaranteed to work every time even once they do get it right. it would also be the ultimate capstone to the whole "unreasonable teachers" theme, the only thing I can think of which could top Silverlake. it also might be the only way for Zorian to actually survive. I fully expect him to effectively be a lich given what sorts of soul jumping and body snatching abilities he will need to steal the original's body, if that ends up being what is waiting for him on the outside.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+29] (10 hours later)
I find it unlikely that QI would tutor adversarial mages . . .
BUT I can imagine it. Maybe for all his vileness, he's still a scholar and gentlelich. Having lived for nearly a millennium, unique individuals like ZZ are actually a delight in his eyes.
Maybe he used mind magic on one of ZZ's allies and learned about the loop and that the end is nearing. Rather than try to get into the loop by doing experimental stuff with his all-important soul (or maybe to give him time to do such experimenting), he attempts to convince ZZ that he'd find it really entertaining to help them and teach them. Maybe one of his hobbies is teaching precocious young necromancers---private tutoring can be incredibly rewarding for the teacher. :D
After all, he did let RR hang out with him.
u/Quetzhal [+26] (11 hours later)
Pfff, you're basically writing that Quatorian ship already.
...any space on that ship?
u/kaukamieli [+7] (16 hours later)
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+3] (15 hours later)
All aboard!!
u/Kachajal [+23] (12 hours later)
Maybe for all his vileness, he's still a scholar and gentlelich.
What do we know of him that's genuinely vile? I'm really asking, my recollection is kinda weak (time for a re-read!).
Alanic clearly finds lichdom vile in general, but he's likely very biased.
Now, I would find it unlikely for QI to turn out to be an ethical soul mage of some description, but he might be an "evil" soul mage without being actively malicious.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+29] (15 hours later)
I believe in MoL, being a necromancer/soul mage generally involves a lot of morally bankrupt research practices---live test subjects, etc.
Edit: Sorry, triple post.
u/xachariah [+10] (a day later)
I think it only requires you to be able to cast simulacrum and to anchor your soul to an object. Simulacrum was explicitly mentioned as being already halfway there.
The story so far with Zorian creating simulacrums and then linking them to golems seems like he's basically building a lich body. Combine that with the soul trap (for just yourself, not millions of souls), and you've got 99% of what makes up a lich without ever doing anything immoral.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+7] (a day later)
Sure, but again generally those disciplines do involve questionable practices. How many scruples do you think QI had when finding souls to practice soul magic on? Zorian has soul sight and knows enough soul magic to defend and examine his own soul, but offensive soul magic is an entirely different bag of tricks.
QI is a master soul mage. What kind of practice do you think attaining that level of skill entails? I can envision capturing people just to pick apart their souls slowly to better understand how souls work. How did Zorian get so good at kind magic? Unfortunately, a portion of his skill comes from a few months of pulling apart the minds of countless aranea, yes to steal their knowable but also afaik for practice.
And then we're also talking about QI who starts wars willy nilly. I'm not saying he's completely deranged---he clearly has his own thoughts on morality---but I doubt he took the "do no harm" pathway to mastery.
But who knows . . . ? Well, I can think of one person who might . . . :P
u/3combined [+3] (a day later)
I think perhaps more relevant is that the story starts with the lich casting soul meld on Zorian and Zach. Considering how spells seem to generally need a fair bit of practice to work properly, it's not a stretch to assume he's been involved in some pretty awful experimentation.
edit: though I've just realised that animals have souls as well, so this isn't really an issue. However, when the murder based soul sight route was mentioned before, no-one seemed to even consider that animals could be used, so there may be some fundamental difference that precludes their use as experimentation subjects.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (7 days later)
without ever doing anything immoral?
Where, pray tell, did Zorian learn most of what he knows about necromancy? By thoroughly and forcibly (and illegally) ransacking the mind of Sudomir, who has performed all manner of horrifying experiments.
And how did he get the skill to do that? Well, it included mind dives that reduced Ibasans to mindless husks, cheating at card games, large-scale unprovoked assaults on aranean webs...
Zorian bypassed the usual path of highly illegal and immoral soul magic experimentation, by pursuing illegal and arguably immoral mind magic practice.
u/Mingablo [+13] (13 hours later)
He is high up in the invasion somehow, and he did do that tricky shit with the souls of ZZ. But we haven't heard of any particular nastiness.
u/None [+22] (19 hours later)
[deleted]
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+6] Father of Learning (a day later)
where his soldiers go door-to-door and indiscriminately massacre everyone they encounter.
Do we know if those are his troops or the Cult of the Dragon Below?
And Pshaw, shit loads of nations would start a war for personal gain. You think Eldemar wouldn't do that if they had the opportunity?
u/KJ6BWB [+3] (a day later)
He may have a reason for all of that.
u/None [+2] (3 days later)
War is horrible but it isn't necessarily vile
u/xachariah [+21] (10 hours later)
While I'm sorta joking, I've been hoping for this for a while. My posts on this last chapter
Similarly, it seems odd that they haven't tried to use diplomancy on QI at all. They know it can be done since RR did it, and it would open up huge capabilities for backstabbing QI. Yes, he is very very very scary, but talking to him is not much more risky than the Aranea mindbreaking Zorian before he learned mind magic or how they're trusting Silverlake right now.
As the Ghost Serpent and Silverlake and the Aranea and literally everyone else they've ever opened up to has mentioned, it is a literally unbeatable tactic. And unlike the Ghost Serpent who wants nothing they have to offer, QI is making a very desperate and expensive gambit right now and could use all the help he can get.
...
Quatach-Ichl is also a highly respected, rational, heavily competent leader of a country who has already been shown to treat his subordinates fairly, work with timetravelers, and balance diplomatic concerns.
...
QI is a big risk, but since they can now reset the time loop instantly or even negotiate via simulacra, he's not much more of a risk. It's probably less of a risk in absolute terms to try to talk to him than to face him in battle.
I agree with you that diplomacy with QI is the best route to take. And not just for immediately getting the crown, but for long term success after they escape the sovereign gate too.
u/eroticas [+7] (a day later)
A lot of what yu've written forgets that QI is a soul mage. Soul modification, damage and death is permanent, doesn't reset through restarts. He could also easily add himself to the time loop, the same way he added Zorian. And all he needs to do to get all the information necessary to do this is to rip open Zack, Zorian, Kael, or Alanics mind, and he's a competent mind mage.
And now he knows about them. Who knows how much he already knows, he could've easily broken into Kael or Alanic's mind before this little meeting. The safest move is probably to kill Zach asap and restart the loop.
u/RiOrius [+21] (7 hours later)
Seems unlikely for this restart, since QI's impression is that they're adversaries, but I could totally see them trying a restart where they attempt to make contact with that intent from the get-go.
Although considering how much nonsense Siverlake put them through, it would surprise me if the lich king were easier.
u/Saffrin-chan [+18] (7 hours later)
Well we know Red Robe was able to consistently work with him, but of course he was helping with the invasion and was subordinate to QI.
u/Bighomer [+19] (22 hours later)
They're going to sit down for a drink and bond over having sweet magic like simulacrums and transcontinental portals and stuff.
You mean Zorian and QI will bond famously over discussions on mind magic, simulacrums, soul magic and primordial while Zach gets shit-faced and falls asleep.
u/xachariah [+6] (a day later)
QI seems like he's got a sense of humor and some charm.
Maybe he could bond with Zach over combat magic or talking about the chicks he's boned in his long life.
u/Bighomer [+7] (a day later)
Ah no, what I meant was that between the guy who turns alcohol into sugar and a corpse, Zach is not quite going to be able to keep up.
u/3combined [+5] (a day later)
"Boned"
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+31] (5 hours later)
Quatorian OTP I am calling it right now mark my god damn words make it so /u/nobody103
Edit: Removed punctuation.
u/sambelulek [+7] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (8 hours later)
Upvote alone is not enough, have a LOL!
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+3] (10 hours later)
❤😂
u/Squadron-of-Damned [+3] (9 days later)
I personally think it isn’t all unlikely. For the last twenty-something chapters I have a feeling Zorian is on a good way to become a necromancer out of the pure practicality of the thing if not in the story itself then probably once it’s over. And with every new chapter I am more and more sure of it. While I think Zorian wouldn’t like the thought in the beginning and no idea how lich “apprenticeship” works, it still is something Zorian should (and I think he will) consider. After all, Quatach-Ichl is old and experienced, he had a lot of time to learn something aside from necromancy as well.
(Plus no one heard from Kel’thuzad from World of Warcraft for quite some time, and I would really appreciate a snarky lich in my life with a direct approach and a possible cat. So I am entirely opened to having Quatach-Ichl around.)
u/xeroxedechidna [+12] (2 hours later)
Remember that they would either need to pull that off every time bring him in on the loop.
u/Izeinwinter [+9] (3 days later)
For maximum hilarity, QI is a former pupil of the sovereign gate. That is why he wears the crown. Not because it is sweet magic bling, its nostalgia. And forcing subsequent users that want to mess with the gate to interact with him.
u/Laser68 [+88] (23 minutes later)
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH that ending.
Of all the things i expected to see, that was not one of them. I am legitimately terrified.
u/I-want-pulao [+33] (35 minutes later)
I couldn't stop going oh-shit, oh-SHIT and my roommate came to ask what happened.
I explained the first loop story in response.
u/Oneiros43 [+72] (27 minutes later)
Well if you are all ready to work with one immortal necromancer with dubious morals why not add a second one?
u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+45] (2 hours later)
You know... if you had to break into Eldemar's royal treasury, who better to work with than an almighty lich who hates Eldemar?
u/Bighomer [+18] (7 hours later)
Wow, I would love to see this happen. Maybe they could make an arrangement that QI gets the dagger (it was a dagger, right?) afterward. Anyway, if they could befriend the ancient Lich that would make for so many great moments, although I doubt it's going to happen.
u/sicutumbo [+4] (15 hours later)
They don't need any of the Keys after they unbar the Gate. They can promise all of the Keys as payment for help in getting the Dagger, once they have them next to the Gate.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+3] (21 hours later)
Unless the artifacts are powerful items in their own right (QI has one maybe for it's special powers?), so giving such a strong enemy a bunch or new toys that belong to a set . . . seems questionable.
u/sicutumbo [+8] (21 hours later)
If they get out of the time loop, why does it matter? In my hypothetical, Z&Z keep the Keys until they reach the Gate, at which point they tell QI that he can have them. The Gate protects the Controller from outside influence, so if they get it to work at all then it doesn't matter what happens after.
u/Bighomer [+4] (21 hours later)
Your hypothetical lives and dies on the premise that they somehow get QI to agree to this, though:
How do they convince QI that they'll give him his crown back, let alone the other artifacts (most of which they don't yet possess)?
QI is probably smart enough to not let himself be fooled so easily, so you'd have to entrust a lot of information to him, as well as a guarantee that Z&Z will uphold their end of the bargain after they leave the time-loop. This is all kinds of messy and dangerous, given just whom they're dealing with.
u/sicutumbo [+10] (22 hours later)
I may not have made some things clear. For one, don't tell him about the time loop at all. Say they want the Crown and the rest of the Ikosian Artifacts that are also the Keys, and that they need them in the secure research facility, but never why. Tell QI that he will get all the Keys as soon as they are finished. Since they already have one, and generally know where the rest are, they have some credibility.
Also, he never has to give up his crown. Bring QI in his human guise along with them to the research facility, and use the Crown for unbarring the Gate, and QI never has to give up possession of it.
If QI already knows about the time loop, then my plan doesn't work at all. But if he doesn't, it might make getting most of the Keys, and especially the Crown and Dagger, much easier.
u/Bighomer [+3] (22 hours later)
I don't think he knows about the time-loop, or ever did.
It's just the part in which QI plays nice and goes along with Z&Z to the threshold of the Gate that I don't see happening, or ending well.
It's a classic scene, where an alliance breaks right the moment they're about to reach the goal because everyone plans to backstab the other. And that's assuming he does come, he's a pretty important person after all and busy with a big-scale invasion.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+2] Father of Learning (a day later)
Why would he backstab them? He's literally getting everything he wants?
u/Zephyr1011 [+1] Potentially Unfriendly Aspiring Divinity (a day later)
How could QI possibly trust that they'd actually give him the artifacts though? They inevitably have to go into the Sovereign Gate with all the artifacts, so he'd need a guarantee they couldn't just run or backstab him.
u/sicutumbo [+1] (a day later)
That is admittedly the weakest part of my plan, but I don't think it's insurmountable. If they give QI an additional Key for him to hold, then that tells him that they probably won't betray him before getting to the Gate. But I can't claim to have a good understanding of what it would take to ensure mutual cooperation throughout the entire plan.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+3] (a day later)
Yeah, you're right. I dunno what I was thinking.
u/Bighomer [+1] (21 hours later)
The orb has its own pocket dimension, which is rather impressive, so you bet the crown has some really cool ability, too.
u/I-want-pulao [+48] (34 minutes later)
Quatach-Ichl is MANY magnitudes of danger away from Silverlake. Cuz he that powerful.
because of the man's unflinching confidence, appearing as if he was holding all the cards and the outcome of this meeting was already predetermined
u/jjy [+25] (an hour later)
The restart switch mitigates most of the danger, as long as he doesn't know about the restarts. The main threat is from soul magic, which Quatach-Ichl doesn't use in combat.
u/I-want-pulao [+21] (an hour later)
You're right. However, QI can fuck things up in a way Silverlake can't. (however, based on them letting Silverlake into the conspiracy, I may have to eat my words soon..)
u/Kachajal [+27] (12 hours later)
I found Silverlake's actions this chapter quite suspicious. A ward that can trap souls? Very useful against the lich, sure.
But also coincidentally very useful against certain other soul entities, if one were trying to gain leverage over them...
u/t3tsubo [+3] (14 hours later)
Presumably the traps wouldn't be set up until near the end of the loop before the battle with QI, so at most she could get a day or so of Zach/Zorian in a soul-bottle IF she managed to somehow backstab and kill them. She hasn't shown that capability yet so I think it's premature to be that paranoid about Siverlake's intentions.
u/None [+1] (3 days later)
But if they're in the bottle would they be able to revive when the loop ends?
u/Dismalward [+1] (3 days later)
Well yea since the world is being recreated and the soul well has been shown not to trap souls forever inside the loop. Only way to bypass it somehow is to throw it in primordial space somehow
u/I-want-pulao [+4] (19 hours later)
It's more of a ward than a soul jar - ZZ's souls were fine despite being captured in Sudomir's soul cylinder. While I agree Silverlake is dangerous af, I'm not sure if this soul based ward is gonna be the key to her betrayal.
u/BanjoPanda [+9] (10 hours later)
Silverlake has continuously sent people to disrupt their actions and test them. She could very well be the one who sent Quatach-Il their way just to see what would happen
u/None [+10] (2 hours later)
[removed]
u/literal-hitler [+23] (3 hours later)
Only because Zach alluded that he would have to use soul magic to defeat him.
u/-Fender- [+15] (5 hours later)
He also used that soul magic wave spell when he faced against Z&Z, Xvim, Alanic and his mercenaries, but that was a (relatively) weak spell meant to quickly impair all those without proper soul defenses.
u/Dismalward [+1] (3 days later)
Alanic already explained why soul magic isn't used so quickly and often by lich. You are overextimating the lich being able to reflexively use powerful soul magic on ZZ without it being obvious. Z even memorized the long spell lich used to get him into the loop.
u/-Fender- [+1] (3 days later)
I'm not overestimating anything. I mentioned another instance of him using a spell based on soul magic. That was all. And as far as the cast being easy or hard, consider that Zorian is an extremely novice necromancer, and yet he was able to send a soul magic attack as part of his threefold attack against that mercenary on the airship. Quatach had hundreds of years to develop his craft, so I fully believe that that area of effect spell wasn't so difficult or improbable for him to use when you compare it to the ease with which Zorian used a weaker version on a single person.
Otherwise, I completely fail to see your point when you said that Zorian memorized the lich's spell. I don't see the relevance. And I don't recall Alanic saying anything about Quatach being able to use soul magic on others in a fight. If there was anything there, then it was probably simply a mention that it was more efficient for him to generally use different spells on his targets to kill them instead of trying to interact with their souls.
u/Dismalward [+1] (4 days later)
"A little," Zorian admitted, continuing his preparations. "I mean, we're risking another confrontation with Quatach-Ichl here. He's one of the few people who has the ability to do us lasting harm. Every time we tangle with him, we're taking a big risk."
"Eh, it'll be fine," Zach said dismissively, giving him a strong pat on the back that had Zorian swaying in place for a second. He gave Zach a glare for that, but his fellow time traveler just grinned at him in response. "Besides, the annoying pile of bones isn't nearly as dangerous as you think. I've fought him plenty of times, and I'm still standing. He doesn't like to use necromancy in battle for some reason."
Alanic, who was staring at the map of the Ibasan base along with Xvim, decided this merited a response from him.
"Most necromantic spells aren't well suited for battle," Alanic said, not taking his eyes off the map. "They take too much concentration and they need to overcome the target's magic resistance to work. It's faster and cheaper to just burn people to a crisp or cut them to pieces. The terrible necromantic spells that are sometimes bandied about in textbooks are torture spells meant to be inflicted on a subdued victim, not something you use in an even fight."
Just stating
u/-Fender- [+1] (4 days later)
Which does not contradict that he sometimes uses soul magic spells, or that he has the ability to use them, or that the reason he generally doesn't use them is because he prefers more efficient methods. It contradicts nothing whatsoever from anything I said.
And I'll reiterate that the first reply you made was to a comment that simply mentioned another occurrence of Quatach using soul magic during a battle other than the one that threw Zorian into the loop. This literally happened, and this is all that I mentioned. I completely fail to see what point you're trying to make here.
u/None [+6] (2 hours later)
[removed]
u/renegadeduck [+3] picky but enthusiastic (6 hours later)
Or add himself to it?
u/eSPiaLx [+16] (7 hours later)
considering he didn't intentionally add zorian to the time loop, and it was all a giant coincidence, I doubt he could add himself intentionally.
u/renegadeduck [+5] picky but enthusiastic (9 hours later)
He may be able to see the addition to Zorian’s soul, and he may be able to tie his soul to Zorian’s. It’s a long shot, but it seems like a worthwhile gamble if he knows about the time loop.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+8] (10 hours later)
I do think seeing Zorian up close and intentionally looking for how to get into the loop might be successful for QI. However, would QI really be willing to do some potentially highly experimental modifications to his own soul? It depends on the difficulty of the procedure for him, but . . . I'm not sure it's entirely worth it given there isn't much time left in the loop. However, I do feel if anyone could make use of that limited time, QI definitely could.
u/eSPiaLx [+1] (14 hours later)
It's not just an addition now though. The marker has infected the entirety of Oriana soul and adapted itself into it.
u/None [+1] (3 days later)
He's an extremely old and experienced soul mage, if anyone could it would be him
u/eSPiaLx [+2] (3 days later)
the point is based on everything we've been told in the story so far, NO ONE except the gods who created the thing should be able to do it. It's not a matter of training a few hundred years, because if it was, then the person using the time loop to train coudl just practice for a few hundred years and then start modifying the marker.
You're logic is analagous to zorian thinking red robe could actually destroy souls because hes been stuck in the time loop for a few hundred years and thus if anyone could red robe must be able to.
u/eSPiaLx [+4] (7 hours later)
He can mutilate his soul.. but messing with the time loop was completely accidental.
u/Noumero [+58] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (8 hours later)
I feel that many people here are still underestimating Quatach-Ichl.
First, consider ending of chapter 45. Sudomir is, I would expect, a much worse soul mage than Quatach-Ichl, but even he was able to notice that Zorian was activating the restart switch fast enough to react. Sudomir's reaction constituted asking a pointless question; Quatach-Ichl could reflexively mangle their souls or something, as soon as he realizes that Zorian is doing something unexpected.
They're under an immediate threat of multiple-restart or permanent damage.
Second, he accurately determined that Z^Z are working against him. Information-gathering capabilities implied by that would make it trivially easy for him to further identify their associates — such as Alanic, Kael, Taiven. He came to this meeting under a Mind Blank, which may or may not mean that he knows about Zorian's mind magic, but which definitely means that he regards them (two apparent teenagers) as possible archmage-level threats.
We can expect him to have accurate intel on Z^(Z)'s abilities and associates, and likely associates' abilities as well. Why wouldn't he mind-read or torture someone else from their time-loop conspiracy before approaching Zach and Zorian, someone who couldn't protect against him?
There's a significant possibility that he already knows everything about their plans and about the time loop. Their operation security was laughably lax, in hindsight.
tl;dr: Z^Z are really screwed.
u/xachariah [+32] (a day later)
You're overthinking it. In any universe without a time loop, QI is basically invincible and can do basically whatever he wants.
If he hears about someone who wants to mess him up, he drops off his crown (so he won't lose it on the .00001% chance if he dies), then rolls up to them and has a talk. Why? Because it's the fastest way to get information and they can't do anything to him.
He doesn't have to look at any other info or check out their associates or anything. He's 100% assured that they can't hurt him and that he can kill them if he wants, so he just does the obvious thing and goes to see them as soon as he finds out about them.
And it would work out 100% of the time, if it weren't for the time loop (which he has no reason to suspect).
Also, he uses mind blank because he's a purely mental/soul entity, so the only thing that can mess him up other than soul magic is mental magic. He might not even know if Zorian is a mind mage; it's just standard when he has prep-time.
u/I_Hump_Rainbowz [+6] (3 days later)
If he learned about them from the devil wasps instead of Silverlake then he would know about the mind magic.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+20] (10 hours later)
Yes, so much is right here. If QI found Z^Z, then he may very well have found someone else in the group first and now their plan is utterly open---including all the information they shared about the time loop.
If QI now knows of the loop (or at least seriously thinks it's a possibility), I think there are two approaches he might take:
- Feign diplomacy while examining their souls closely for any hint as to how he can piggyback into the loop.
- Offer token support in return for cross-loop notebook-style continuity of some sort.
Assuming he knows, what other options might QI be considering?
u/Noumero [+14] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (11 hours later)
Try diplomacy. If it's not as successful as he would prefer, subdue and capture them, then spend the rest of restart figuring out the marker and/or modifying their minds to be subservient to him in future restarts. He would probably be able to at least put Zorian into coma (see the incident with the Sword Divers) and plant a suggestion on Zach to teleport to next-restart!Quatach-Ichl's location as soon as this restart is over, if given a day of work, and then he would have a whole month to himself.
If he knows about the time loop, the only reason for him to not do that is uncertainty regarding the speed at which they could initiate a restart, and possibly regarding their passive defences. Zach's marker already resets the loop automatically if his soul is tampered with. Quatach-Ichl may be worried that Z^(Z) set up similar active defences against mind magic, especially given the discussion about liches' preferences for those in this chapter.
But as soon as Quatach-Ichl figures out their exact capabilities OR realizes they're not going to cooperate OR figures out the marker, that would become the best available strategy to him, I think.
(This is all under the assumption that he is a perfectly selfish agent, mind you. He may be a nice, trustworthy guy, right?)
u/None [+15] (12 hours later)
[deleted]
u/Noumero [+6] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (13 hours later)
Hm, I suppose so, assuming he doesn't know about the time loop (otherwise, he has every reason to use soul or mind magic).
u/None [+9] (a day later)
[deleted]
u/inscrutablescooter [+3] (4 days later)
He just might be old enough to have been the previous looper.
I would find it immensely amusing if QI turned out to be an ancient ancestor of the Novedas- at the very least, it would fit with seemingly limitless mana reserves
u/idannadi [+53] (7 hours later)
I feel like QI soul is kept in the Ziggurat of the Sun and that's why he noticed them now and not before. If not that, then it is due to Silverlake as others have suggested.
u/None [+32] (13 hours later)
[deleted]
u/Vakuza [+21] (15 hours later)
It also explains why the lich can make his own gates. That means QI could find them since he knew their names and appearance from the sentient wasp conversation.
u/None [+28] (22 hours later)
[deleted]
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+26] Father of Learning (a day later)
DAMNIT THE GODDAMN WASPS WERE RIGHT!
u/Allian42 [+16] (2 days later)
Next thing, you're gonna tell me the little charms they used are not anti mind magic but anti soul magic because of QI.
u/I-want-pulao [+10] (a day later)
If he's aware of the importance of true names - why did he share his? I think QI phylactery being in Xlotic is very possible, but it doesn't have to be the Ziggurat of the Sun. Do we have timelines as to when the Ziggurat was lost to the sulrothum?
u/jaghataikhan [+6] Primarch of the White Scars (a day later)
I mean, there's no reason he gave his true true name - merely a nom de guerre from when he was alive would work just as well
u/I-want-pulao [+1] (3 days later)
But he mentioned that the public has forgotten his name, just the way he likes it... In that case, it makes more sense that the public has forgotten his actual name, rather than a nickname or a title or a nom de guerre. (Or at least that's how I'm interpreting it - I could be wrong!)
u/jaghataikhan [+2] Primarch of the White Scars (3 days later)
Yeah, that's a valid point for sure.
I'm reaching here, but it may be his attempt to defuse their extremely alarmed reaction? Kind of a "I have the upper hand, so I'll give this piece of info as a freebie to slightly equalive things as a show of good faith to hopefully allow better negotiations"?
It's still ambiguous where the leak is - silverlake, the wasps, the mercenaries, etc. I suspect it's the wasps given the Doylist literary appropriateness of the true name coming up after being foreshadowed by them, but that's not good enough Watsonian/in universe evidence
u/I-want-pulao [+2] (4 days later)
Hmm it would only be useful if ZZ had that similar cultural background of 'true names are important!' Which they don't - as QI should be aware of that. So I'm glad to see that you know you're reaching here! But hey, this is what we are here for :D
It's too in your face I think. I'm guessing it's Silverlake, honestly. She was intrigued in Ch 79 (asking what's this about a centuries old lich?) and has been strangely helpful. (Ofc, this is the first time they've included her in the conspiracy so it may just be her normal behaviour to be helpful after being incredibly greedy and annoying..)
u/jaghataikhan [+1] Primarch of the White Scars (4 days later)
Not necessarily - the very fact he's the one actively making contact with them inherently puts them on the back foot, no? As in, they're the ones reacting would naturally put them on the defensive.
I see him openly approaching them and offering his name as a way to (unsuccessfully) de-escalate, show that he's here to talk/negotiate in good faith instead of killing them in their sleep as he very easily could have.
Definitely wouldn't rule out Silverlake as the leak.
u/Vakuza [+3] (a day later)
It's not necessary for true names to be a thing, he could guess the area they were from by appearance and ask around or use library divinations to find people with their names by going through a census. It'd take some effort, though you have a fairly narrow search considering you have 2 names with one being fairly rare and also a way to confirm via appearance.
Not sure if I like the idea of true names, but names as they are already hold some significant information.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+3] (21 hours later)
This is a great theory.
u/kaukamieli [+13] (17 hours later)
Oh shit. This becomes complex if the soul is in another of the imperial artifacts they are looking for. :D
And of course it is. What's more worthy object?
u/Terkala [+4] (21 hours later)
Aren't the artifacts also linked to outside the loop? So if his soul was in one, he would have half his soul inside the loop and half outside. With him acting predictably in the loops, this seems unlikely.
u/scalymonster [+8] (23 hours later)
Probably not; the Guardian said that when ZZ exit the loop any information contained in the Orb's memory bank will be lost. So, while the artifacts are linked to the loop, they are not linked to the world outside the loop.
u/kaukamieli [+2] (21 hours later)
I have no knowledge of what they are out of the loop.
u/DerSaidin [+6] (a day later)
Mmmmm. I wonder if QI is allied with the sulrothum. QI can do a bunch of useful magic for them. Sulrothum would be good guards for his phylactery; probably don't have the magic capability to mess with his soul, and they would struggle to communicate with someone who could.
"Fine," Zorian nodded. "First, let me introduce ourselves. I am Zorian and the person next to me is Zach. May I know who I'm talking to?"
Unsure how those 3 that died communicated it out, but Sulrothum could have told QI who to look for.
u/idannadi [+6] (a day later)
They didn’t die, they were merely thrown around and had their limbs broken.
u/SpeculativeFiction [+38] (33 minutes later)
I wonder if telling Quatach the truth about Primordials (they aren't actually summoned, and thus won't eventually disappear after a certain amount of time) would get him to change his mind about the ritual?
Given that he's such an ancient and powerful mage though, I doubt it. He likely already knows. He likely knows (and approves of) the wraith bombs as well.
Maybe cutting a deal with him (they're both going to be very influential in Eldemar after the time loop) and making necromancy legal would help things out? Opening up trade, perhaps?
Edit: Then again, knowledge of primordials is more of a church thing, if you aren't specifically interested in them like Silverlake, and he doesn't get along with them. Plus, he didn't know about the ritual's true purpose (dominating the primorial), and I feel that he's too smart to deliberately unleash a godlike monster that won't simply vanish after a while, even if it can't get to his island.
Really looking forward to their conversation though.
u/bruhman5thfloor [+19] (an hour later)
making necromancy legal would help things out?
That's probably a nonstarter, especially since it's unpopular and the church is still influential. And as gentlemanly as he seems, diplomacy is probably not an option for someone who'd start a war of choice that'd immiserate half the continent.
u/SpeculativeFiction [+20] (an hour later)
And as gentlemanly as he seems, diplomacy is probably not an option for someone who'd start a war of choice that'd immiserate half the continent.
Depends on whether he was pressured into the attack by his fellows. He had to protect the vampire girl, despite his dislike of her, after all.
Maybe his people are starving and desperate, cut off from trade by Eldemar? They live on a Northern Island that is likely very cold (bad farming conditions?) and Eldemar had a naval base watching/blockading them. It's certainly possible this is an attack he's personally behind in order to get revenge on the people who exiled him and made necromancy illegal, but there are other possible motivations.
He's called off the invasion before, after all.
That's probably a nonstarter, especially since it's unpopular and the church is still influential.
They've waned greatly in power, and when Zorian assaulted the manor in the Sarokian Highlands, it was pretty explicitly said that Eldemar would keep the soul-trap around so they could experiment.
It would be a tough sell, but it's possible Zorian could eventually try to open up trade with Ulquan Ibasa. The war was never actually ended between the two countries.
Bottom line, we don't know what caused the war. Desperation, or simple pride and revenge? I assume we'll find out next chapter.
u/None [+17] (2 hours later)
[deleted]
u/gridpoint [+7] (4 hours later)
I suspect he even had a hand in The Weeping.
u/I-want-pulao [+1] (a day later)
Is this a common suspicion? Any in-text clues?
u/gridpoint [+1] (a day later)
No clues that I can think of. But it is an unexplained phenomenon that made Eldemar vulnerable to this invasion on several fronts.
u/I-want-pulao [+1] (a day later)
Ah ok. I'm trying to look it up, but wasn't the weeping not just in Eldemar but across the splinter states?
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+3] Father of Learning (a day later)
Across the entire continent
u/sicutumbo [+17] (2 hours later)
Maybe cutting a deal with him (they're both going to be very influential in Eldemar after the time loop) and making necromancy legal would help things out? Opening up trade, perhaps?
I think diplomacy is the only thing that will get them out of this encounter without resetting the loop. With a prepared battlefield, they're unsure that they can get the Crown from QI. Here, QI knew in advance that he was going to talk to two powerful mages, and Z&Z didn't expect or preprare for him at all. Fighting will not end well for either the bar or Z&Z.
Well, ok, it might end in a fight and without resetting the loop, but not in a positive way.
u/None [+21] (3 hours later)
[removed]
u/sicutumbo [+3] (3 hours later)
See my reply to the thread that I just made. If QI isn't actually hostile to them, they may not need to fight him at all.
u/HPMOR_fan [+3] (2 days later)
he was the one who brought Zorian into the loop in the first place (still not certain what exactly his purpose was in doing the thing that did that)
Zach made a comment about coming back after being killed, so QI thought that meant Zach was using soul magic, so he attached Zach's soul. That's it.
u/None [+39] (an hour later)
[deleted]
u/-Fender- [+11] (5 hours later)
Everything turned out better than expected!
u/vallar57 [+35] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (2 hours later)
I feel like QI completely overshadowed the sulrothum, but they are very much worth talking about.
Do you think there is some truth in the "names have power" superstition? It's a good detail for their cultural atmosphere, but when 103 leaves a hint about magic like this, it might just surface sooner or later.
Their reasoning was otherwise sound btw. It is not wise to bring obvious spies into your home.
Also, about the mock battle. Who do you think would win? XD
u/SufficientCalories [+31] (6 hours later)
I think that it is interesting that Qatach-Ichl revealed his original name the same chapter that the sulrothum brought up that idea. If QI attempts to put and end to them then I'd suspect there might be something there.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+11] (21 hours later)
Point against: If names had so much power, it's probably QI would know and thus be unwilling to share his real name.
Rebuttal:
- Maybe he didn't actually reveal his true name.
- Maybe he's too powerful to feel threatened
u/I-want-pulao [+13] (a day later)
If names have that much power, I'd bet against an old and wily lich from unneeded arrogance of just sharing it cuz why not. he didn't get to a 1000 years by being arrogant.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+3] (a day later)
Yeah, I'd bet with you on that.
u/I-want-pulao [+2] (19 hours later)
I'm not sure if there's any truth to it - esp since no other person has shared it so far. Of course, nobody103 has made conservation of detail a key part of the story so it could come into play later.
u/Terkala [+2] (21 hours later)
Revealed a name that might be his true name. No proof that it really is his.
u/you_troll [+3] (11 hours later)
Names have power reminds me of demons in the good student book
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (15 hours later)
That's a great story.
u/I-want-pulao [+4] (19 hours later)
and the Bartimaeus (sp?) trilogy too!
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+5] (21 hours later)
Also, The Wizard of Earthsea!
u/jaghataikhan [+3] Primarch of the White Scars (a day later)
And The Lies of Locke Lamorra! And The Dresden Files!
u/cyberdsaiyan [+3] (2 days later)
And The name of the wind!
u/None [+1] (3 days later)
I feel like QI completely overshadowed the sulrothum, but they are very much worth talking about.
I really liked them as well. A bit like with the Aranea its cool seeing a truly alien sentient species, especially one thats not part of the standard fantasy set. I hope they get more development.
They did kinda suck at the diplomacy attempt though. Would have been trivially easy for them to talk to humans who trade with them in advance rather than just going in blind.
u/Laser68 [+33] (49 minutes later)
So now that I have had a chance to calm down and think about it. Quatach-Ichl just casually tracked down Zorian and Zach to a tavern, with only about a 3 week timeframe. That effort included the time it took to realize someone was inquiring about him, and the time to track them. Not only that he did it without tipping off Zach and Zorian that anything was weird about the loop.
u/SpeculativeFiction [+19] (56 minutes later)
Is it just me, or is it weird that they're inquiring about him at all? He hasn't been on the continent (without a disguise, anyway) in centuries, and they already know his abilities and schedule far better than anyone on the mainland could.
What purpose would gathering info serve, besides enabling this plot twist?
u/ddggdd [+38] (an hour later)
Well, they are only now thinking of a direct confrontation to obtain the crown right? In the past they simply considered QI a danger but not something to defeat
Besides it may very well be Silverlake or the others asking questions for their own needs and it was tracked back to them
u/SpeculativeFiction [+5] (an hour later)
Sure, but he hasn't been publicly on the continent since Eldemar chased them to that island. Which was over a century ago, I think? I'm pretty sure there's no trade between Ulquan Ibasa and the mainland either. No one is going to have information locally, certainly not anything they don't already know from fighting him.
Now, if there was a scene of them interrogating or bribing Ibasans for info, this would make a lot more sense. As is, it just seems like it opens them up to needless risk for no real gain.
u/-Fender- [+12] (5 hours later)
I'm pretty sure that he found them because he realized that Silverlake (most likely, as she's one of the only new factors added) made inquiries to confirm things Z&Z told her, was found out, and it was found out that she was connected to Z&Z. Probably, someone noticed that an Academy professor, a priest and the suspicious witch just happened to meet simultaneously in a proficient alchemist's recently-built workshop, and that it was entirely funded by two very active and talented young mages.
u/I_Hump_Rainbowz [+30] (an hour later)
Does anyone suspect Silverlake more from this chapter? I have suspected her for the last few but Quiditch-itchy showing up now only entrenches the paranoia around her.
u/SpeculativeFiction [+36] (an hour later)
Silverlake has a lot to gain from cooperating with Zorian and Zach (Youth potion ingredients, at the least), and nothing really to gain from Ulquan Ibasa. She's already immortal--why would she risk losing her avenue to eternal youth by pissing the protagonists off?
I definitely wouldn't be surprised if she screwed them over by escaping the time loop on her own (she's definately leaving coded info in her notes about that), but I don't see how cooperating with Quatach-Ichl would help her do that.
...Unless she's giving Quatach info in exchange for access to the primordial's prison, so she can experiment on it each loop. Sounds incredibly risky for her though. She'd have to hide the fact that she's going there from Z&Z, and risk that Quatach would use the info and thus expose her, as well as risking that she'd be betrayed by her new "ally." I guess shes dying at the end of each loop anyway, but it still seems rather pointless.
She can't find the ancient Salamander or get the grey hunter eggs on her own. Her best hope there is to make nice with Z&Z and not give away the recipe, so they gather enough ingredients for a potion for the three of them after the loop ends. She doesn't get that by siding with Quatach.
u/I_Hump_Rainbowz [+17] (an hour later)
Unless she's giving Quatach info in exchange for access to the primordial's prison, so she can experiment on it each loop
This is my thoughts. What if her and Quatach are old friends or something and she is asking for info about the time loop? either indirectly or directly (trading) the information on Zach and Zorian to him to gain access to the loop or to escape the loop.
u/SpeculativeFiction [+6] (an hour later)
This is my thoughts. What if her and Quatach are old friends or something and she is asking for info about the time loop? either indirectly or directly (trading) the information on Zach and Zorian to him to gain access to the loop or to escape the loop.
The risk of pissing them off seems too high for that to be worthwhile, but she has irritated them before by investigating them with her spy networks, so I suppose it's possible.
u/bruhman5thfloor [+27] (an hour later)
She seems like the type who can't use simulacrums bc they'd definitely try to replace the original. And now that she's in on the notebooks, I think the only thing she's really working on is a way to get herself out of the loop.
u/I_Hump_Rainbowz [+11] (an hour later)
HA that is an interesting way to put it. I wonder if she is putting magic in her books that could cause damage to Zorian for having memorized her books, even though the he cant read them.
Imagine Silverlake putting enchantments inside the book that Zorian memorizes but cant read, and because he memorized them, Silverlake can activate them... But I don't know if that could work or if I am being to paranoid about Silverlake.
u/09eragera09 [+3] (23 hours later)
It wouldn't work, I think. Zorian is too much of an accomplished mind mage for that to be feasible. Any signals that she sends would first need to get past Zorian's mind shield. And really, he's not even 'remembering' the content. Rather, he's storing the location of every drop of ink relative to the paper they're written on, no? I think enchants wouldn't work as they're not 'formed' in his head.
u/sambelulek [+3] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (9 hours later)
Yeah, it's just last chapter she queried about tangling with an ancient lich.
Just think about it, in Cyoria Zorian is raiding invaders' cache, gathering information (more than low priority now since his conspiracy suggest he to find out where QI start the loop), refining plan to learn more about the gate, just usual business. Nothing drastic. How in the ninth hell QI can deduce who's doing what? In short amount of time too!
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+7] (10 hours later)
It's true: Zorian has investigated and disrupted the invasion process significantly more in previous restarts than in this one and yet pre-invasion QI would (usually?) never pay a visit. It seems either investigating QI directly makes all the difference in the world or . . . Silverlake?
u/Reddit_demon [+11] (21 hours later)
The original name he gave Merenptah, is Ancient Egyptian. It could be he is originally from, lives in, or has his phylactary in the Xlotic desert with the Sulrothum and that’s what caught his attention.
u/I-want-pulao [+3] (a day later)
At the same time, the ziggurat of the sun is famous for its own sake. Just because someone is searching for it doesn't mean they want to investigate QI. Of course, when QI investigates and sees they've been exploring other avenues of interest to find out info about him, maybe he can put two and two together. But it's not immediately obvious...
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (a day later)
That makes sense, but imo would be an incredible coincidence---although it would also suggest his phylactery is likely the key in the Ziggurat of the Sun.
u/None [+31] (2 hours later)
[deleted]
u/abcd_z [+32] (8 hours later)
Yeah, I feel that Zorian was drastically misremembering how misanthropic he was back at the beginning of the loops.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+14] (10 hours later)
You're right. I did not notice that and it shows how far he's come.
u/AKAAkira [+11] (21 hours later)
He mentioned as far back as in chapter two, though, that Benisek influenced him into being interested in girls. E.g., ogling Kiana. I can see him using a few restarts to experiment, if he didn't have any other goals in mind.
u/jaghataikhan [+1] Primarch of the White Scars (2 days later)
Thing is, ogling involves zero interaction with the target - do you really see him actually engaging with Kiana socially given how much he avoided social interaction back then?
u/AKAAkira [+2] (2 days later)
That's what the time loop with no repercussions are for.
u/jaghataikhan [+3] Primarch of the White Scars (3 days later)
Haha I don't think his fear of the consequences was what made him refrain from engaging - rather, I feel like his general misanthropy was the key stumbling block
u/jaghataikhan [+1] Primarch of the White Scars (3 days later)
Haha I don't think his fear of the consequences was what made him refrain from engaging - rather, I feel like his general misanthropy was the key stumbling block
u/None [+29] (2 hours later)
[deleted]
u/kaukamieli [+22] (10 hours later)
She might be carving notes into the prison itself. :D
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+9] Father of Learning (a day later)
Holy shit that's a brilliant idea. Hell, those unbroken codes she's using in her notebooks, might just be nonsense to throw them off!
u/Overmind_Slab [+25] (2 hours later)
I can't be the only one who thinks there's a chance, albeit slim, that Quatach-Iclh is going to be friendly? Every time they've interacted with him so far it's been on opposite ends of a battlefield. The Lich is absolutely an evil character but he's probably rational. He's safe now, he just wants to know what's going on with Zach and Zorian. They both have information on the cult of the dragon that he'd be interested in.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+25] (5 hours later)
I can't be the only one who thinks there's a chance, albeit slim, that Quatach-Iclh is going to be
friendlyfrisky?FTFY
Okay, putting aside my new favorite pairing (Quatorian), I am very curious to learn about QI's motivations.
He has led armies several times before so he's possibly a bit of a warhawk. On the other hand, Eldemar has essentially imposed extremely longterm sanctions on QI's area of residence, so military campaigns may be perfectly reasonable.
So, QI finds a small group of extremely well-funded mages are poking into his affairs and movements and now wants to meet them. He's powerful enough and has probably watched them form afar for a few days, so he feels safe walking up to them like it's nbd.
Let's be real though: Under normal circumstances, he might expect to talk work them and learn what's up, end them in an overkill opening salvo leveling the building, then teleport away to have judo afternoon tea. You don't throw a bunch of resources investigating a powerful lich if you want to play patty cakes; he knows these people are probably enemies.
Given that they're bold enough to investigate QI in the first place---given that they even know to investigate QI when the invasion should still be secret---this group may well have ideas on how to defeat a powerful lich. This means that QI may very well regard ZZ and Co. as a serious existential threat. Yes, he may feel safe approaching them in this way by surprise, but QI probably didn't get to be a lich by underestimating possible threats. (The soul coin thing let's admit was a fluke. Who would expect a 16-year-old to have access to such an item?)
Or he could string them along
u/GoXDS [+4] (6 hours later)
friendly isn't the term you'd want to use probably XD
but do remember that it has been mentioned that QI seems to be a very strict but fair leader/commander
u/alexeyr [+1] Steersman (9 days later)
And then it was a Friendly AI story :)
u/Xtraordinaire [+23] Team Glimglam (38 minutes later)
That was a fun surprise.
u/melmonella [+21] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (8 hours later)
I know everyone is terrified, but bear with me, I think this is probably the best case scenario for a contact between the dynamic duo and QI.
First of all, QI started this conversation in a public place instead of, say, ambushing ZZ in a quiet place outside of Cyoria. This means two things:first, he can find them (as evidenced by him finding them) and second, he would prefer to not fight them. This is probably the least advantageous situation for QI to start fighting:
- he can't realistically prepare a battlefield in advance-I doubt ZZ picked some specific tavern instead of a random one, and new massive wards within a populated city full of mages would have been noticed.
- if he does fight, he loses the invasion-it seems doubtful he could keep his disguise up in a fight, and all it would take is for ZZ to scream about the invasion, or damage his disguise, or teleport to the police station to ruin everything. At best he could try to portray this as a barfight gone bad between three powerful mages, but that still means police investigation and would prevent him from using any really powerful magic since that would still point at him.
- he can't rely on support-QI doesn't trust his mage force much and thus probably wouldn't have told them he is meeting with a powerful third party that those mages could use to one-up QI. He can't use his army either, see previous point. And he can't use his subordinates from the island either, since those would definitely prompt an investigation to see what they were doing in Cyoria.
On the other hand, ZZ would be just fine to fight here:
- Zorian constantly keeps anywhere from 3 to 6 simulacra in different parts of the world that he can instantly communicate with through his soul. Those simulacra, in turn, can do everything zorian can, including teleporting to his allies and making Gates between themselves. This means that all Zorian has to do to get a pretty significant number of allies on the scene in if not moments then minutes is to tell his simulacrums where he is.
- With their newfound soul defences it seems unlikely that QI could take them down in moments. At the very least it will get to a fight, which already benefits ZZ more than QI. Furthermore, magic such as what QI could use to turn ZZ into his slaves is likely very involved and takes a long time, meaning their allies will arrive on the scene.
- Any complicated soul magic used on Zach will trigger a loop reset, wherever QI knows it or not. This means that Zach is safe from soul magic while Zorian is probably safe from mental tampering (and can do a Mind Blank himself if push comes to shove). Since it seems doubtful QI would have access to that information, he is at least 50% likely to use a wrong permadeath spell on the wrong person and get either mindraped back (can't use mind magic while your mind blank is up, can you) or just die because the loop reset.
- ZZ still likely have the orb on them, and using it means getting an instant golem army on the spot, plus possibly other allies they have in there.
This means that QI is more or less screwed either way. Don't use soul magic-ZZ reset the loop after the conversation. Use soul magic-either reset the loop immediately or get into a fight where ZZ might escape and reset the loop. Try to disable them first before analysing them and using soul magic later-get into an even bigger fight and definitely lose the invasion.
Because of that, his only venue is diplomacy, which he is trying to do. There are actually some avenues for progress here you might not suspect:
- QI likely doesn't know that his mages are attempting to control the primordial, or that it is not summoned and as such will not go back to it's cage. Giving him this information might cause him to reconsider the whole invasion plan, as that is a key point in it.
- QI likely doesn't actually want to invade Cyoria as a terminal goal-war is a continuation of diplomacy by other means, after all. As such, giving him an avenue for diplomacy with the Eldemar other than literally directly invading them will probably serve his goals just as well as the invasion itself, if not better. Eldemar doesn't seem eager to invade his island either, meaning they would also prefer not to fight, wherever church says undead are abominations upon creation or not. That means that some common ground already exists between the two, and some diplomacy might be possible (most likely for the purposes of trading magical research). ZZ can make that significantly easier too, by trading political secrets about Eldemar nobility that would possibly make it easier to convince Eldemar that bringing their whole army down on the undead is a bad idea.
As such, while I think it'd have been better to not meet QI, this is probably the best case scenario for how it would have happened. Certainly beats him showing up and opening with a soul magic salvo.
u/None [+14] (13 hours later)
[deleted]
u/melmonella [+2] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (a day later)
We haven't had a reliable source of info on reasons for the invasion as of yet.
u/bruhman5thfloor [+2] (a day later)
u/hoja_nasredin [+1] Dai-Gurren Brigade (a day later)
we can't be sure which of the two faction the lich is part of. He can be a diplomacy fan but was convinced to participate anyway.
u/melmonella [+1] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (2 days later)
Spear couldn't have read QI's mind, so that info is from the perspective of low-level mooks mostly, and as such not truly representative of the actual goals of the invasion (that only high command knows).
u/Keshire [+1] (16 hours later)
and second, he would prefer to not fight them.
Contrary to that, he invaded a highschool dance with RedRobe and a Vampire in order to mindrape Zach. So he's not opposed to attacking someone in public.
u/scalymonster [+11] (23 hours later)
He attacked the highschool dance at the start of a full-scale invasion. Public attention was not an issue at that point. The invasion is still a while off in this loop, so drawing the eyes of the authorities now could easily wreck it.
u/None [+4] (22 hours later)
Counterpoint: That could have been Red Robe pushing for that.
u/TomSmash [+41] (46 minutes later)
Being completely honest I was getting a little bored with the last few chapters because by and large, everything was going to plan. Holy shit I am hyped for the next chapter
u/I_Hump_Rainbowz [+22] (an hour later)
I felt the exact way. This has totally refreshed my interest in this series. Just like you the last few chapters didn't feel as interesting as the rest of the series but now... oh boy. I cant WAIT for the next chapter.
u/DerSaidin [+18] (a day later)
Another idea for QI becomming aware they're targeting him..
I think I have something that might help you take down Quatach-Ichl," she said, pulling out a weathered old scroll out of her bag.
"Oh?" Zach said eagerly. "Do tell."
"It's a trap field that prevents souls from escaping out of the area," Silverlake said, throwing the scroll in his direction. Zach caught it, fumbling slightly with the catch due to not expecting the move. "For undead like Quatach-Ichl, it stops them from leaving until they shut down the ward. If you can lure him into the field, it should give him trouble for a time at the very least.
QI could have made a number of scrolls like this, with spells usefull in battle against liches, added a listening spell to them, then scattered them around. Maybe even getting this one to Silverlake intentionally (without her knowing he sent it), because he considers her a threat.
If someone preparing to battle him is doing research on how to defeat him, they would come across a scroll with a spell perfect to use against him - then discuss battling him near the scroll.
QI just has gets an alert when they move, then listens to stuff happening near them. He could also track the scroll's location to find them.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+12] (a day later)
Man, that would be pretty smart. I'll remember to do this when I become an evil ruler of a nation.
u/jaghataikhan [+8] Primarch of the White Scars (a day later)
Yeah, I was somewhat reminded of Lady Alustrial from the Forgotten Realms books. IIRC she heards the next seven words whenever somebody mentions her name.
Granted QI hasn't been shown to be that powerful, but then again, it's a genius idea. And considering in some ways QI is basically what Voldemort wishes he could be, and that even Voldy had a similar idea with attaching the Taboo to spoken mention of his name, I can totally see QI doing something like this if it's within the limits of his abilities...
u/summersss [+2] (8 days later)
Smart thing to do one one is so long lived. Yet we rarely see that from immortal beings in books. Me I would spend a century writing a library worth of book. Circulate them and watch as people base most of their magic from my poison pilled knowledge.
u/Fredlage [+16] (an hour later)
Just casually approaching them to talk... holy crap!
u/TheEngineer923 [+14] (11 hours later)
... I'm not reading this fic until it's completed.
That was one of the worst cliff hangers in fiction history IMHO.
u/Noumero [+21] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (11 hours later)
... You do realize you're just challenging him to make the next one even worse, yes?
nobody103: I love ending chapters on a cliffhanger. It just feels so... right.
u/TheEngineer923 [+6] (14 hours later)
Oh goddamn it... Well in for a penny in for a pound.
I wouldn't mind the cliffhangers if it was weekly updates but leaving it there and forcing us to wait a godsdamned month is just plain cruel.
You're eeeeevil author, eeeeeeeeeeviiiiillllllgack gack cough cough cough.
Ahem, evil.
u/GoXDS [+2] (a day later)
Psh. only gotta wait 21 days. 75% of a month only
u/TheEngineer923 [+1] (2 days later)
The fact that that's a plus point tells a lot about the situation.
u/summersss [+1] (8 days later)
I think for chapters like this, ya got to spit out another one quick time even if its shorter than usual.
u/None [+14] (14 hours later)
[deleted]
u/t3tsubo [+5] (14 hours later)
It really depends on what QI's values are, and what kind of offer/negotiation Z&Z can come up with. It's clear that QI is a rational character, so all Z&Z have to do is make an offer that provides more risk adjusted value to QI than what the invasion would accomplish.
u/Keshire [+11] (17 hours later)
Now that Red Robe is out of the narrative, it's about time for another loop twist.
Quatach-Ichl is old enough to have been around during the last time someone was sent into one of these time loops. Like the serpent spirit he may have been able to identify one is, or was, about to happen.
I think we're about to find out that Quatach-Ichl is trying to escape the loop even though he's not a time traveler. Maybe in order to duplicate his soul or something.
u/summersss [+1] (8 days later)
I am sad to say I did not take that in. Wow living through a past timeloop. Maybe that's how he became a litch.
u/thrawnca [+10] Carbon-based biped (19 hours later)
You know, if anyone would have the skills to mess about with RR's soul marker, eg turning a temporary marker into a permanent one, in exchange for a promise (geas?) to help with the invasion...
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+11] (20 hours later)
You're right. RR must've been working with Neolu. It all makes sense.
u/hallo_friendos [+6] (a day later)
There's no way QI would help RR join the time loop without getting himself into the time loop as well.
A geas to help with the invasion can be easily disarmed with modern techniques, and since we have reason to suspect RR is a cultist, probably wouldn't be necessary anyway.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
He might help mark someone else, depending on the circumstances. If he didn't want to perform a risky procedure on his own soul, or if he wanted an outside observer to evaluate and refine his own participation in the invasion, or he just wasn't entirely convinced but was willing to take a chance on RR because it wasn't hard for him to do.
Geas is just one possibility.
u/izikblu [+10] (an hour later)
flawless + soul in the same sentence -_- 🤔
not much later 「Called it!」
u/sicutumbo [+8] (3 hours later)
Thinking about this chapter, why do Z&Z need to have the Crown? Yes, the Crown needs to be present when they interact with the Gate, but why do they need to have it? Could they possibly convince QI to help them get the other Keys, and then have him tag along while they go into the Gate, promising all the other Keys as payment once they have unbarred the Gate? It's not like they actually care what happens to the Keys after they've used them for unbarring the Gate, and QI seems smart and selfish. Since Z&Z's goals don't actually directly conflict with QI's, it's possible that they could get him on board to help. Letting him know about the time loop is of course out of the question, but I think it's plausible for QI to get enough benefit that he won't care about the secrets.
u/asdkant [+6] (a day later)
Ebook build is up for anyone interested, thanks /u/nobody103 for allowing the builds :-D
also, OH MY GOT I CAN'T WAIT 3 WEEKS FOR THE NEXT CHAPTER!!!
p.s.: does anyone have a list of all the MoL threads on this subreddit? I want to put up the list on my repo
u/I-want-pulao [+7] (a day later)
https://www.reddit.com/r/motheroflearning/comments/5v0zl0/links_to_discussion_threads/ this is pretty well maintained (/u/thrawnca updates it!)
u/asdkant [+3] (5 days later)
Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for. I'll link to it in my repo.
u/I-want-pulao [+1] (5 days later)
You're welcome! I use it every chapter to see other discussions :)
u/infomaton [+6] (a minute later)
Typo thread:
more far
far more
u/thrawnca [+6] Carbon-based biped (10 hours later)
with only occasionally broken up/only occasionally broken up with
Zach and Zorian was/Zach and Zorian were
being extremely fierce and violent species/being an extremely fierce and violent species
producing necessary sounds/producing the necessary sounds
in preparation to/in preparation for
kicking up a dust/kicking up dust
and they twitched madly/and these twitched madly
of flee/or flee
the each sulrothum/each sulrothum
strapped to their backs/strapped to its back
trio far more threatening than they should/trio far more threatening than it should
the cold and the rain hardly hurts/the cold and the rain hardly hurt
towards then/towards them
his antennae (How would Zorian know the gender?)
had no put/had not put
they Key piece/the Key piece
things weren't going too well/things aren't going too well
If felt wrong/It felt wrong
without someone as critical as Alanic not being/without someone as critical as Alanic being
every think about/ever think about
information of sulrothum/information on sulrothum
running into issue/running into issues
I use to/I used to
Zorian didn't blame him, perhaps it was/Zorian didn't blame him; perhaps it was
of highest order/of the highest order
and his face with/and his face was
u/akaatnene [+5] (6 hours later)
a large unground lake
a large underground lake
u/Ristridin1 [+3] (a day later)
Then the moment passed and his face with the same flesh-and-blood mask he had been wearing up until now.
The last part seems to miss a verb.
u/sambelulek [+2] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (9 hours later)
revealing equally pitch black... no other pitch black described on that paragraph. Did you mean the familiar pitch black?
u/Veedrac [+2] (10 hours later)
ready to either attack them of/or flee at the slightest sign of aggression
u/None [+5] (6 hours later)
OH SHIT
This reminds me of the final chapters of the Two Year Emperor, part 1. Let's hope it ends as well as that.
For some reason I feel that revealing the truth about time loop may have consequences.
u/WalterTFD [+6] (14 hours later)
It is damned embarrassing when the Non-Time-Traveller is the first one to try negotiation boys. How have you not tried talking to this fellow before?
Up there with figuring out a safe way to let Zorian try and read Zack's mind in terms of stuff I've been screaming at them for the longest time.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+16] (15 hours later)
Well, QI is one of the few people in the world that can permanently destroy them. Zach ostensibly was knocked out for many restarts when QI did the initial soul merge. Zorian doesn't even have Zach's "auto-restart on soul tampering" protections, so QI could still permanently maim him.
I do think Zach should be okay with Zorian poking around in his head at this point. Personally, I'm guessing RR put a deep-seated aversion in Zach's head to avert that sort of thing.
u/thrawnca [+10] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
How have you not tried talking to this fellow before?
Perhaps because QI is a reasonable, fair, far-sighted, ridiculously competent leader who has apparently decided that he has sufficient cause to burn their city to the ground and unleash an eldritch abomination to kill as much of their continent as possible?
How can they negotiate with that, when he's already thought things through? What positive or negative incentives can they hold out, when he's more powerful than the two of them combined despite the loop? Why take the risk of even trying, when he has mastered one of the few skill sets that can pose a real danger to them?
I don't expect them to walk away from this "negotiation" without a loop reset. Let's just hope QI doesn't whip out a diabolus ex machina and block that ability.
u/xeroxedechidna [+4] (an hour later)
The end is especially interesting because of his lack of scruples. Even if Zorian and Zach perfectly avoid giving anything about the time loop away, he can just force it out of Kael or take some other people hostage. Remember that soul magic has a permanent effect in this loop, so he has the power to effectively remove anybody from the loop even if they can be reset when the loop ends.
They need to effectively string him along without giving him control regardless of whether they let him in on the loop.
u/SpeculativeFiction [+33] (an hour later)
Remember that soul magic has a permanent effect in this loop
I don't think that's actually true. The "Soul-Kill" spell Red mage used is something that just removes people from the Sovereign gate's list of things to remake each loop.
It was mentioned somewhere in story that if souls were actually being brought back, people's reserves and control would increase immensely over time, and would be very noticeable. People who ran into soul-magic using mages or monsters would show up dead/insane at the beginning of the loop, and that would accumulate over time with all the butterflies the protagonists brought up.
Hell, the invasion of Cyoria likely has at least a few soul-magic spells thrown around each loop, given that Ulquan Ibasa is a haven for necromancers. Even if it was just one per loop, that would build up over the decades Zach has been around.
Zach has traveled around finding and beating up necromancers and Liches over the time loop. Many of those are infamous for experimenting on people with soul magic. If people were perma-killed or driven insane through the loop, they would have to find new victims to work on each month.
"I doubt he can," Zorian said. "I don't think the spell actually kills souls. I think it simply marks them in some way, letting the time loop mechanism know it should not recreate them at the beginning of the new restart. If the time loop is, as the Ghost Serpent believes, some kind of training mechanism, then it makes sense to include a function like that into it. It allows the Branded One to get rid of impassable obstacles by removing them from the loop entirely."
TL;DR: Soul magic likely doesn't transfer over for anyone who isn't a time traveler.
u/silver7017 [+16] (an hour later)
soul magic is reset at the end of each loop for anyone who isn't a time traveler. the only reason red robe was able to permanently remove anyone was that he had access to time loop specific abilities.
u/Rayuu [+9] (an hour later)
That isn't how I remember it? Yeah, soul magic is dangerous as fuck to Zorian specifically, because any alterations to his soul risk fucking up his soul marker, but everyone else is destroyed and reconstructed back again in the start of the loop no matter what the damage is, and Zach is basically immune to someone with no prior knowledge of the Sovereign's Gate self-defense mechanism barring a lot of bad luck.
I think the most dangerous thing is the fact that apparently Quatach-Ichl just apparated from fucking Eldemar or whatever to the Xiotic region in a very small time-frame, after getting information that Z n' Z were asking about him on the other side of the continent. Like holy fuck how.
u/Green0Photon [+3] Student in Cyoria, Minmay, and Ranvar (2 days later)
Just had the thought: was QI around during the last time loop? If so, could he have been the person who got looped, or added and escaped like Zorian?
Also, the loop now was supposed to be a month later. What if QI kept thinking the loop was about to happen, and wanted to start out from a position of strength? He could know that he might not like whoever's looping, and needs to make sure he'll be ok, but instead kinda got caught with his pants down.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (3 days later)
He very possibly was around, but I doubt he's a former Controller. He might recognise the marker, though, like the Ghost Serpent did.
u/inscrutablescooter [+2] (4 days later)
I've been thinking about it- if QI was aware of the loop and might think to look for a potential looper, that would probably have been his first hypothesis when encountering a young person with abilities beyond his years, who happens to not care about dying. Even when he actually did resort to using soul magic on Zach/Zorian as a means of harming him permanently, he didn't think of checking for soul markers, despite having spent the better part of a month coordinating with RR.
I don't think QI knows about the loop, which seems surprisingly ignorant for an entity that has been around as long as he has. There's even a legend about it associated with the artifact he carries...
I notice that I am confused.
u/MavSynchroid10 [+1] (a month later)
When is this novel supposed to end? Haven't read it for ages and thinking of starting from the beginning again
u/Several_Antelope2457 [+1] (4 years later)
"Hello, I go by the name 'L' and i think you are kira"