9.4 KiB
[deleted by user]
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Author: u/None *
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URL:
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Score: 5
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Created: 2018-01-29T15:16:54
Post:
[removed]
Comments:
u/None [+63] (12 minutes later)
Man, it's almost as if they're in a world that literally runs on tropes, and Cat's an inexperienced Squire new to her Name whose entire character revolves around dragging people down to her level and beating them there, being manipulated by various nobles and Named far more experienced/powerful than her. Gee, she really took a thematically appropriate loss there, didn't she, considering EVERYTHING SHE IS AND THE WORLD IS AND-
If the story infuriates you that's fine, you don't have to read it, but a rational story doesn't mean that people make mistakes. It means that they make understandable mistakes, that the rules of the world are consistent, etc. Characterization is not bad writing. Bad writing would be having the inexperienced girl with anger problems and a severe dislike of authority walk into the Tower totally unprepared and deftly sidestep the net of plots, jibes, and baiting thrown at her because rational.
Also, the story makes no claims to being rational. That honour is bestowed entirely by the readers, who post it here.
u/ptolemyspyjamas [+9] (56 minutes later)
Fair enough.... My post probably came off as a rant and it probably is one. But I don't really think that her mistakes are quite as plausible as you make them out to be. I enjoy characters who make mistakes, just that the mistakes seem plausible. I mean she's not making reckless mistakes that suit her personality.... That entire scene was just unadulterated stupidity.
Why didn't anyone point out that no stakes were put up in exchange for a high level military post?
Where is the tension of meeting with the most powerful people in the world, understanding that you are out of your depth so just act careful?
u/melmonella [+22] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (2 hours later)
For what it's worth, you just aren't seeing the whole picture. Neither is Cat, so that's alright.
Malicia had decent political reasons to not directly oppose the bet made by a Named who is a daughter of her strongest political rival, but she did shift the odds ever so slightly in Cat's favor. Bet you didn't even notice, but it's revealed a few chapters later.
Black is a cunning son of a bitch too-if things went too out of hand he'd have intervened directly, but as is he probably just considers this training. Plus, you'll note he (having presumably predicted something of this sort) insured the bet would be pointless even if lost-all he has to do is say "alright, Akua can have 15-th legion, but then I guess noone will mind if I give also-currently-nonexistant 14-th to Catherine? Such shame, we weren't going to assemble 15-th in the next 30 years either, guess Akua will have to wait a while to command."
Finally, Names have minor mind-altering affects on people. It's an observable effect that is often mentioned later on. While it doesn't force anyone into any action, it does make it harder for Squire to resist political fuckups against Heiress.
u/ptolemyspyjamas [+12] (3 hours later)
Ah I see. Thank you, these spoilers helped me a lot. Hopefully I'll be able to immerse myself back into it. It's just so hard to go back once you lose that spark.
u/mojojo46 [+1] (7 days later)
For what it's worth, I'm reading and enjoying the series quite a lot, but I felt like this arc here was the weakest of them. I disagree that it was poorly written, but it was a bit boring and slow and the actual pieces moving in the background are totally opaque until much later. The parts following this at the war college is also somewhat dull. If you can get through that, I do feel it picks up quite a bit.
u/Jello_Raptor [+24] The Last Tool User (13 minutes later)
Cat is not perfect.
PGtE isn't competence porn unless you're talking about the Calamities. (And even then ...)
Praes has history in its politics.
None of these things disqualify it as a rational fic.
So Cat has emotions and blindspots, so do we all. It's the mindset she and Black bring to solving problems, that make it a rational fic. Their styles are different but they both (as well as others) try to work with the world as it is, understand it, and try to shape it to their will as effectively as possible.
They don't always succeed, but they try.
u/ptolemyspyjamas [+7] (an hour later)
That's perfectly fine. Anything you are new to, you are expected to fall and pick yourself up and get better. But where is that tension and nervous as you get into your first ever bike?
My favorite character is Ninefingers from first law and he is basically a gigantic failure, achieving almost nothing of what he wanted to and ending up worse off that he began the book with. While I don't expect that level of writing but surely there needs to be a balance.
Where is the nervousness of meeting the most powerful for a game you ate most ill sorted for? What's up with the lack of any stakes from one side?
u/CeruleanTresses [+4] (8 hours later)
Yeah, I think it's semi-common to confuse rational fic with competence porn, when in reality competence porn is just a subgenre of rational fic.
u/None [+19] (34 minutes later)
If you are frustrated by "the people who are better and more experienced than Catherine Foundling at politics manage to hand her a loss in a political setting," it seems likely that your concern is that the fic isn't protagonist-friendly enough rather than that it's not rational.
If you are frustrated that you, as the reader, don't understand why the Empress didn't immediately take Cat's side, I can assure you that those of us who are caught up have a much better idea of why that is.
u/GaBeRockKing [+12] Horizon Breach: http://archiveofourown.org/works/6785857 (7 hours later)
A Practical guide to evil is testably rational. I held the same opinion as you, but another poster convinced me it was rational by using the internal logic of the APGtE world to make testable predictions about the upcoming events in the APGtE world, of which a sufficient number came true to convince me that APGtE is rational.
Though unfortunately since my comment history only shows the last 5 months I can't ctrl+f down it to find the comments in question, and google isn't being helpful...
u/ptolemyspyjamas [+2] (a day later)
Sounds interesting. Maybe you can paraphrase the post with an example?
u/GaBeRockKing [+2] Horizon Breach: http://archiveofourown.org/works/6785857 (a day later)
I think it was right about the end of book 2/beginning of book 3. I'm pretty sure he successfully predicted Adjutant gaining his name, something about pickler, and Cat's breakup.
u/Sonderjye [+5] (a day later)
If we run with the 'characteristics of rational fiction', the only point I would critizise is is that Cat doesn't really solve problems through application of knowledge and resources, as much as she does it through repeatedly hitting things hard enough. And when she acts cleverly it usually involves being incredibly lucky.
u/everything-narrative [+3] Coral, Abide with Rubicon! (2 days later)
"There are no problems that cannot be solved by application of sufficient high explosives, for a given definition of 'solved' and generous error margins on 'sufficient.'"
u/everything-narrative [+2] Coral, Abide with Rubicon! (2 days later)
Cat is a realpolitik idiot, but a savant at governance. Nobles can dance around her, but she has terrifying ability at surrounding herself with loyal underlings and powerful patrons.
Also, book 1 ends with a mock battle. Heiress is still kicking by end of book 3. Of course Cat will have to lose some.
Blow by blow:
Cat gets baited by Akua becase baiting is to Akua what fighting dirty is to Cat. If Akua took on Cat in, say, a fistfight, and lost, you wouldn't berate Akua for being bad at fighting dirty. Cat has character flaws, Akua seized on them. Sometimes you loose.
The wager isn't stupid, because Cat's specialty is beating the odds (for a given definition of odds.)
And the Empress doesn't care, for reasons which are apparent, and reasons will become apparent in book 3; indeed many of the Legions are already headed by Wasteland noblility.
And no, the wager isn't heads-i-win-tails-you-lose, because it specifies that if Cat loses, she's fucked. Battles can be won, lost, or stalemated. (And besides, Cat is named which makes her worth twenty soldiers.)
Akua is not a civilian. Don't you think Wasteland nobility are trained in the art of war?
Is it unfair? sure. Cat will deal.
That adresses your points, the rest is anger-driven rambling, which I will not address.
You obviously care about Cat. So take a break and come back. Worm, APGTE, and other long-form, high-intensity web serials were never meant to be read in one sitting, or even binged extensively.
u/modrony [+1] (2 days later)
I disagree with your reason but agree with the conclusion.
A character not having perfect reasoning does not make a story non-rational. The world running on narrativium does.
Looks like I stopped reading earlier than you did, but I too was a bit miffed at the way the story was presented here.