84 KiB
[RT][WIP] Worth the Candle, ch 76 (Date Night) (Start Book V + srs bsns)
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Author: u/cthulhuraejepsen Fruit flies like a banana*
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URL: https://archiveofourown.org/works/11478249/chapters/31366212
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Score: 148
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Created: 2018-02-12T19:58:54
Post:
Comments:
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+75] Fruit flies like a banana (4 minutes later)
If you're wondering where ch 75 went, it's just a character sheet and some screens that are on it, mostly for quick reference/refresher, titled "Stats for Nerds".
This web serial now has a functional Patreon under my Alexander Wales pen name, but I'll still be posting to reddit for stuff related to this fic using the /u/cthulhuraejepsen pseud. You can read the About section on the Patreon for more information.
Thanks for reading!
u/AurelianoTampa [+60] (24 minutes later)
my Alexander Wales pen name
:O
Well that's a shock! But considering how much I enjoyed Shadows, Glimwarden, and Metropolitan Man, it really shouldn't have surprised me as much as it did. All pretty different, and all really good.
Also, note to self, I need to start listening to the Rationally Writing podcast.
u/rabotat [+13] (an hour later)
Shadows, Glimwarden, and Metropolitan Man,
I loved MM, it seems I have two new stories to read.
What confuses me slightly is this: Alex has said previously that WtC is a self-insert. Which would indicate he is 18-19 in the real world, right?
Am I wrong here?
Metropolitan Man was written in 2014, which would put him around 14 at the time of writing it. Unless he has used his past-self as a self insert, it is pretty incredible how great an author he was for such an age.
I mean, it's great story regardless, I enjoy his writing in any case, but for a teenager to be this good, that's incredible.
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+29] Fruit flies like a banana (5 hours later)
What confuses me slightly is this: Alex has said previously that WtC is a self-insert. Which would indicate he is 18-19 in the real world, right?
It's a loose self-insert, largely because the story involves a lot of people that I wouldn't be comfortable directly copying in a written work, and if I was going so far as to change them, then I might as well change a few things about myself so as to provide some plausible deniability and give a thin veneer of privacy.
(I'd rather not answer any questions about what's true, what's adapted, and what's made up, mostly because I'd end up having to talk about my issues, and part of the reason I'm writing this is because I would rather do that in prose form.)
u/rabotat [+9] (6 hours later)
Thanks for the answer. I didn't mean to pry, I can see how this would be a personal thing for you.
u/AurelianoTampa [+15] (an hour later)
I loved MM, it seems I have two new stories to read.
Shadows of the Limelight is complete (though IIRC it leaves space for a followup). I actually liked Glimwarden better, but it's on indefinite hiatus :-(
Alex has said previously that WtC is a self-insert. Which would indicate he is 18-19 in the real world, right?
He gave a bit of an explanation for what he means by self-insert before in a comment, I think. Let me see if I can find it. The jist of it was that the self-insert title has more to do with original character creation and gets a bad rap; they're not meant to be literally the author. Like Bella Swan from Twilight was a self-insert from Stephenie Meyer (she's said as much), but no one thinks that's actually her. It's a projection of the author into a character (often idealized as a Mary Sue/Marty Stu by bad authors).
Edit: Found it!
I highly doubt he's a teenager any more, but he was at one time and probably used some of the experience to craft Juniper to some extent.
u/rabotat [+2] (an hour later)
Yeah, makes sense.
Shadows of the Limelight
Oh, I was following that for a while, I enjoyed it. Didn't know it was finished.
To be honest, I am not a great fan of a narative driven universes, but I can't help but to like fiction that is well written.
u/None [+52] (3 hours later)
[deleted]
u/ansible [+28] The Culture (3 hours later)
Yeah, seriously, this is a plot twist that caught me completely off-guard.
u/ProfessorPhi [+13] (6 hours later)
I feel like I'm in an episode of Scooby Doo.
u/Green0Photon [+40] Student in Cyoria, Minmay, and Ranvar (4 hours later)
under my Alexander Wales pen name.
🤦
I swear half the stuff on this sub is written by you.
But seriously, I remember seeing some post a little while back about how 75% of the stories are actually written by you, Eliezer, and maybe someone else. I can't remember. Something like that is legitimately true. We need some sort of productivity statistics for rational authors/stories.
As another person stated, I'm disappointed because the amount of people actually writing rational fiction is lower than expected. One author less than we thought. We could have had Alexander Wales and cthulhuraejepsen combined! But it's really only one person. 😞
I got totally bamboozled.
Using a pseudonym is interesting: I tried and failed to get into one of your other original stories, and didn't like it, so if you used that name for this, I might not have read it. (I also probably didn't try hard enough to get into your story. Maybe one day.) Maybe not, because this kept getting upvoted a lot, and I'm in a constant state of trying to find something to read.
I'm glad I read this though; this is one of my favorite original stories, and your early update rate was insane. This is an awesome story.
Once I actually get a revenue stream (I'm a college student), I promise to donate something to the Patreon eventually. I need to pay back to all the creators I like, and you deserve it especially for the bamboozle.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ You're amazing.
I keep just getting this feeling of amazement and that feeling that you just got played hard. Man. Props to you, so much.
Alright, I'm gonna read the chapter now. I wonder how much the character of Juniper maps onto you. He's an incredibly well developed character.
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+19] Fruit flies like a banana (5 hours later)
Using a pseudonym is interesting: I tried and failed to get into one of your other original stories, and didn't like it, so if you used that name for this, I might not have read it. (I also probably didn't try hard enough to get into your story. Maybe one day.) Maybe not, because this kept getting upvoted a lot, and I'm in a constant state of trying to find something to read.
This is one of the nice things about using a pseudonym that's not connected to your other pseudonyms. People don't come in making comparisons or with preconceptions of how you write or who you are, and the work stands by itself without that much of an authorial presence aside from what's on the page for that specific work.
(One of the ethical questions I think about is that by depriving people of information, you're preventing them from making an informed choice about what to read. I'm hoping that no one feels really bitter about being tricked into reading this story because they'd made a vow not to read anything I'd written ever again, but those were the dice that I threw.)
u/Green0Photon [+7] Student in Cyoria, Minmay, and Ranvar (6 hours later)
I think that, for the most part, you're ethically fine. If you were evil, and so I choose not to read your work, it wouldn't really be a big problem. Free works mean that just by reading it, I wouldn't necessarily be supporting you (and thus evil). Donating, on the other hand, is more morally dubious.
Still a little stupid to debate, though, because any free will you took away is so unbelievably miniscule in comparison to many other common things we experience. I'd argue that the good the work itself does more than balances out any evil you committed by using a pseudonym. So don't worry! :)
That silliness aside, I like how you handled the pseudonym here, in comparison to the Waves Arisen. We still don't know if that's Eliezer or not, and it would be nice to have the author confirm or deny that prediction.
Around now was perfect, imo. I don't know if I'd want you to use a pseudonym in the future though, because I'd want to make sure I read your future works. (Past works are not as important, because quality increases over time. I did enjoy Metropolitan Man though.) It would not be a big shame to bamboozle us again, but it would be a bit weird. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ponder it; I don't have a strong opinion either way.
I suppose it's less weird to do it on purpose than for lolz.
u/ceegheim [+7] (a day later)
This is one of the nice things about using a pseudonym that's not connected to your other pseudonyms.
FWIW (the candle!), it was the opposite for me: I found the description unappealing and started following it pretty late.
If I had known that it was you, then I would have followed it from the start; you earned sufficient trust that I will give anything you write a try, regardless of genre/description.
Well, this way I got positively surprised once I actually got around to binging "worth the candle"; there's always a silver lining.
(and then I got disappointed because alexanderwales and cthulhuraejepsen funge against each other wrt output)
u/lawnmowerlatte [+1] (a day later)
I feel bitter! I follow ‘Alexander Wales’ in FF.net, but since I didn’t know WtC was by you, I haven’t gotten to it. Just kidding, I’m just glad to have more stories to read.
u/None [+1] (a day later)
I find this kind of hilarious, because I've loved everything you wrote as AW, but couldn't get into Worth The Candle, and now I'm considering trying it again because I know you wrote it.
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+2] Fruit flies like a banana (a day later)
I don't think that it's for everyone. One of the reasons that I like/liked writing under pseudonym is that I worry people will have this preconception that they like the set of "stuff I write", and then push through even though they're not having fun, and have an unpleasant experience.
u/None [+1] (a day later)
What made you want to do the big reveal now?
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+9] Fruit flies like a banana (a day later)
- Worth the Candle got to the point where it was successful and visible enough that people would have formed their opinions on it, meaning that the pseudonym holds less value.
- Given the above, the pseudonym began to lose its value as a baggage-less handle, since it had its own baggage, spoke with its own authority, etc. It was created as a pseudonym that didn't bring in past associations or conceptions, and developed at least some of its own associations and conceptions. If it's not serving the status-cloaking function, it's less worthwhile.
- Running multiple active accounts can be kind of a pain in the butt, especially if they're doing the same thing. I wasn't terribly careful about keeping up a firewall between the AW and CRJ ones, but I did put some token amount of effort into it, and eventually that effort got annoying (I'd say a few months ago, probably).
- End of one book and beginning of the next seemed like the right time.
- I really didn't want to go to the effort of setting up a second Patreon/PayPal for this account, and really thought it would have been ethically sketchy to take money from people without cross-linking, especially given that Glimwarden is on indefinite hiatus -- it would have felt to me like abandoning a web serial and then spinning up a new account so that I could dodge responsibility for that, which wasn't at all the intent.
u/CouteauBleu [+6] We are the Empire. (2 days later)
Next week:
"Okay, so I'm actually Tk17Studios and DaystarEld as well. I have a lot of free time on my hands, okay? Also I'm a ventriloquist."
u/Sceptically [+7] (2 days later)
The following week:
"Okay, so there's only actually two posters on this subreddit, and one of them is you."
u/CouteauBleu [+2] We are the Empire. (2 days later)
Yup. Everyone on this subreddit who isn't alexandewales is me. I'm actually talking to myself here.
u/Sceptically [+2] (2 days later)
Arguing with yourself, too. And pointing out that you're arguing with yourself. And calling yourself a loony, you loony. (Also talking about yourself in the second person.)
u/adgnatum [+2] (2 days later)
In hindsight, a generalization of (5), not being crowdfunded under multiple aliases in an area, is a good rule that might not be obvious to anyone who hasn't done crowdfunding. (Certainly not to me.)
u/None [+1] (a month later)
Hi! Just reporting in! I pushed past the early distaste, and realized that you basically dismantle everything I found distasteful when I tried to pick it up the first time, and then you play with it like lego, which is delightful. I love Worth the Candle and am following closely now.
u/rubix314159265 [+1] (2 months later)
So was it successful? I mean are all your new stories going to start under a new pen-name untill that have proven themselves?
Also have you done this before? Are there other stories out there that you have decided not to claim by Alexanderwales?
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+3] Fruit flies like a banana (2 months later)
It was mostly successful. 8/10. I don't believe I have any stories that aren't cross-linked, but in some cases you'd have to trawl through months or years of comments in order to find the link (it's something that I should probably work on, even stories under the Alexander Wales pen name can be a little bit decentralized).
I'll probably do it again, but not for anything as long and involved as Worth the Candle.
u/CommonMisspellingBot [+1] (2 months later)
Hey, rubix314159265, just a quick heads-up:
untill is actually spelled until. You can remember it by one l at the end.
Have a nice day!^^^^The ^^^^parent ^^^^commenter ^^^^can ^^^^reply ^^^^with ^^^^'delete' ^^^^to ^^^^delete ^^^^this ^^^^comment.
u/sicutumbo [+14] (6 hours later)
Next week: Turns out that Alexander Wales lives in Croatia and spent a few years blogging about decision making and philosophy on some green website under another pseudonym. Then 90% of the content on this sub would have been written by one person, who might as well be the next Isaac Asimov.
u/Green0Photon [+7] Student in Cyoria, Minmay, and Ranvar (6 hours later)
Christ, don't even joke about that. D:
I swear, I'm gonna get nightmares, and everyone on Reddit is going to be a bot except for me. Then everyone's gonna turn into p-zombies.At least I have my nonrational fanfiction. 😭
u/alexeyr [+1] Steersman (3 days later)
Who is the "lives in Croatia" part?
u/sicutumbo [+3] (3 days later)
nobody103, author of Mother of Learning
u/Aravan [+66] (51 minutes later)
More seriously this is surprising, and in a weird way disappointing. I don't mean that as a criticism of you, it's just that there's apparently one less author of rational fiction whose work I enjoy.
I used to live in a world where cthuluraejepsen and Alexander Wales could both be writing a story independently of each other. Now the potential amount of good, new rational fiction per unit of time is decreased when compared to that perception.
u/EliezerYudkowsky [+44] Godric Gryffindor (2 hours later)
Him and Ouri Maler, god damn it! Every time you hope there's a bright new author with intelligent characters...
u/eternal-potato [+9] he who vegetates (a day later)
Well, thankfully at least /u/Wertifloke isn't just an alias of some well known author.
u/None [+1] (2 days later)
Er, who is Ouri Maler the same person as?
u/EliezerYudkowsky [+5] Godric Gryffindor (3 days later)
Sunt and Sun Tzu on fiction.live and Sufficient Velocity and Questionable Questing.
u/None [+1] (4 days later)
Thanks
u/nytelios [+8] (8 hours later)
Same. I'll admit part of my enjoyment was derived from speculating (not exactly speculating, the word's escaping me, closest I could find was finifugal) on the identity of the now mythical cthuluraejepsen, obscure D&D whiz from Bumblefuck, Kansas.
u/PurposefulZephyr [+17] (4 hours later)
my Alexander Wales pen name
It may be just a start of the new book, but we already get a plot twist! Now we just need one more reveal:
I have split personality, the other one's named Eliezer Yudkowsky
And it will turn out this sub is made and maintained by a single person!
u/rabotat [+4] (22 hours later)
Nobody103 is his best friend, and mooderino his boyfriend.
u/levoi [+15] (4 hours later)
Wow, I absolutely did not see that coming. I really loved your work as Alexander Wales (especially the dark wizard of donkerk - why wouldn't you publish it, or at least add it to your site, btw?), but still somehow did not recognize your style here.
Worth the candle is top notch. It keeps me awake at the late hours of the night as only the very best books does. I think I will donate some humble amount, as a token of my appreciation. Cheers!
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+7] Fruit flies like a banana (6 hours later)
I keep meaning to go over Dark Wizard of Donkerk to at least do a first editing pass ... but I like writing a lot more than editing. Enough people have read it now that there's not really a point in trying to keep it as a separate thing with caveats about quality and/or having been written under a different-than-normal process.
(Seriously though, I don't like editing. It's still my dream that an agent or publisher will come along some day and say "hey, we'll get you an editor and pay them to edit for you", but that's not normally something that happens to people.)
u/DaystarEld [+4] Pokémon Professor (14 hours later)
Well, I think it functions at least well enough for a manuscript that you can shop around. If it's accepted by a publishing house, isn't that when you'd basically get the recommended edits?
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
What kind of editing? Spelling /punctuation/grammar check I can do, also some amount of plot consistency. Tone/length/characterisation not so much.
I enjoyed Donkerk, so I'd be open to proofreading if that's what you want.
u/rationalidurr [+11] If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! (3 hours later)
NANI?!?!?!?!?! I am already read
But in all seriousness, why thou?
u/Makin- [+22] homestuck ratfic, you can do it (an hour later)
Man, you might find this a bit creepy but I want to brag regardless about a certain guess I made two days ago. I even considered asking you if I was correct.
(For those wondering, this was posted in my Homestuck discord, we just talk about Worth The Candle often. I'd fully support a WTC Discord if one existed, however.)
EDIT: Also wait, now I gotta ask. Are you behind The Waves Arisen too? Or is that still probably EY?
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+16] Fruit flies like a banana (5 hours later)
I've got no idea who was behind The Waves Arisen. I'm somewhat skeptical that it's EY, but don't have a strong argument either way. I think someone ran a stylometric analysis and it was inconclusive.
u/xamueljones [+7] My arch-enemy is entropy (23 hours later)
I think it was guessed that EY may have collaborated with the author as a sort of consultant, but the actual author is still unknown.
u/lazaret99 [+7] (a day later)
Minus points for a complication
u/ItsHalliday [+10] (12 minutes later)
What you were Alexander the entire time? I was not aware of this.
u/sparkc [+8] (4 hours later)
My immediate reaction to the reveal was to mutter ‘motherfucker’ with a big cheesy grin.
u/None [+5] (5 hours later)
[deleted]
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+10] Fruit flies like a banana (6 hours later)
Just being announced now, though a few people have guessed.
u/I_Hump_Rainbowz [+2] (8 hours later)
I have been wanting to read glimwarden but dont like that it is on an indefinate hiatus. does it come to some sort of conclusion or would i be better off never having read it?
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+4] Fruit flies like a banana (10 hours later)
There's no conclusion to it, I think that you're better off just not reading it. My intent was to get to the end of the first "Book", then push all those chapters out, but it was taking a really long time, and I got distracted by this (plus some other, unpublished stuff).
u/serge_cell [+3] (a day later)
I find it highly suspicious that some new promising author whose pen name start with cthulhu suddenly claim that he is established and well know author Alexander W. and was him all along. And this new author whose pen name start with cthulhu writing about memory editing and exclusions of parts of reality. There is horrible truth somewhere out there...
u/Saintsant [+7] (6 hours later)
I'm more surprised by the name revelation than I should be, given that I've enjoyed all your works. It seems obvious in hindsight, but such things often are. Anyway, I respect the desire to keep something as personal as even a pseudo-SI quarantined under a pseudonym and hope that the experience has proved rewarding. The community will follow your story wherever it goes; we are, above all else, your readers.
u/jaghataikhan [+6] Primarch of the White Scars (8 hours later)
Holy shit
Now that you've mentioned it, we should have guessed! Nobody is this impossibly articulate about (meta)narrative other than the author of Shadows of the Limelight!
I have to say, WtC is your best work so far. Probably the best part is the highly intelligent characters chatting, yet in very identifiable and distinct voices.
My only regret is that I thought we had another excellent new author to the fold!
u/throwaway11252016 [+6] (11 hours later)
how do you become this cool
u/eternal-potato [+7] he who vegetates (a day later)
Please confirm via /u/alexanderwales.
u/alexanderwales [+14] Time flies like an arrow (a day later)
Yes, it's me.
u/nytelios [+3] (8 hours later)
Sharing the bittersweet pang at the plot twist. Sweet part's that I loved Metropolitan Man and I've yet to read SotL and Glimwarden. And as always, thanks for writing.
u/CannotThinkOfAThing [+2] (13 hours later)
O_o TIL that 2 of my favourite web authors are the same person.
I'm disappointed that there are less of you, but even more impressed with you as a writer.
u/CannotThinkOfAThing [+8] (16 hours later)
Also when is the reveal that AlexanderWales is also Scott Alexander?
u/Agnoman [+2] (a day later)
Huh. Huh.
Well I certainly didn't see that coming, although looking back I guess I can see commonalities. It's sort of interesting how my view of the author changes my view of the work.
But yeah, big reveal! I've got to say, I think WtC is far and away your best work, at least of the ones I've read (side note:this is good motivation to read the rest of them at some point). I think a lot of that is how good the characters and the character dynamics are, but really I enjoy most everything in this story. I'm glad to see a Patreon set up for it.
u/Green0Photon [+1] Student in Cyoria, Minmay, and Ranvar (6 hours later)
I will say, after posting miscellaneous oneshots on AO3, there was no way I would've thought you were just a pseudonym, instead of a separate person.
u/Kishoto [+1] (a day later)
my Alexander Wales pen name
u/Airgineer1 [+1] (4 days later)
u/ArisKatsaris [+54] Sidebar Contender (4 hours later)
The problem was, that plan started to sound more evil the more I thought about it, and beyond that, more complex than I wanted to count on. “Just thinking,” I said with a sigh. “Amaryllis, your objections have merit, Fenn, your objections have merit, Valencia, I should have considered your feelings more before making that suggestion.”
Loyalty increased: Grak lvl 9!I was really amused at this, and feel it a small gem of subtle humor. Everyone else gets consideration, which (but of course!) increases Grak's loyalty, rather than any of those other people. I don't blame Juniper for being bewildered and confused by him.
On my part I'm guessing that Grak appreciates kindness and fairness in general, while being naturally distrustful of kindness and fair words directed at himself. I wonder if he would NOT have increased loyalty, if Juniper had also said something nice/polite/considerate about him, since then instinctive mistrust might have been the reaction.
u/EliezerYudkowsky [+29] Godric Gryffindor (4 hours later)
Isn't the Locus gambit an obvious thing to try? It's on a time limit, it supposedly doesn't take long or irreplaceable resources, Soul magic is probably good for Arthur anyway, and if the Narrative gives you a sideplot it will probably progress toward Arthur along the way.
u/None [+23] (5 hours later)
It is. Unfortunately, Joon misses his BFF more than he cares about making optimal choices or playing along with the DM.
u/rumblestiltsken [+7] (16 hours later)
I feel like Joon is having some major problems with the locus. He has said it a bunch of times that he hasn't connected with it. Not sure why (his reasons seemed a bit post hoc to me).
u/Makin- [+16] homestuck ratfic, you can do it (18 hours later)
The locus is anti-scientific and Joon is a very scientific person, it makes a lot of sense to me. Same reason why he clashes with Solace, but without even being able to talk.
u/rumblestiltsken [+12] (a day later)
To the point of actively arguing against saving its life? And Solace's? He actually quite liked Solace, despite their differences.
I kind of hope there is more of an explanation, He literally just took the time to save people who tried to mug him, but then wants to ignore the locus/Solace for some nebulous narrative reason?
Maybe some deep-seated unhappiness with resurrection? An "Arthur couldn't come back, so why should Solace?" kind of thing.
u/None [+8] (17 hours later)
Probably because it's a giant monster deer that can't talk.
u/NoYouTryAnother [+3] (a day later)
I think contrasting Joon's saving Valencia in the prison to the ignoring the locus now is instructive. The best I can guess is that Joon has a deep aversion to being obligated to save those he doesn't have a connection with. In previous discussion it was mentioned that he is pretty classical neutral, e.g. only saving somebody he doesn't care for when threatened by the Cowardice affliction. My guess is that his reflection on not getting the cultural baggage with the locus translates to "I don't really care much" and that that translates to resistance to getting involved. Note that not only was Valencia "Joon-bait", but his saving her was likely heavily influenced by the now-absent levelup compulsion.
u/i6i [+30] (3 hours later)
I'm glad there are people around to curb Joons homicidal lust for killing the deer but that poor locus still has more death flags than even Fenn.
u/Takashoru [+17] (3 hours later)
It has too many. It's going to live a long and happy life, just you wait and see.
u/i6i [+7] (a day later)
In our hearts and creepy shipfics.
u/icesharkk [+9] (a day later)
There fact that Joon straight out promised not to fuck the deer means the DM is going to fuck him with his own words
u/nohat [+3] (3 days later)
Obviously going to be a necessary part of the planting ritual.
u/icesharkk [+5] (3 days later)
"planting" "seed"
u/Makin- [+23] homestuck ratfic, you can do it (an hour later)
I've gotta say, Debate seems like an incredibly useless or hard to level skill if it didn't level even once during the last segment of this chapter. It's just at level 2, too.
u/nytelios [+8] (8 hours later)
Perhaps Joon reached for something familiar in his soul-coma haste? His D&D group did debate a lot. Or it's compensation strategy for low social and he's expecting situations where being a Debate specialist would be useful: the end of this chapter's D&D vignette might be telling. I'm still piqued he passed by Appraisal, the classic litRPG OP ability (assuming it works the usual way).
u/akaltyn [+1] (19 days later)
Possibly debate tracks something more like formal logic or classical rhetoric. The way he argues with his friends isnt particularly structured, and hasn't really changed over time.it might be different if he was givign a 5 minute speech presenting his case.
u/None [+23] (8 hours later)
[deleted]
u/I_Hump_Rainbowz [+28] (8 hours later)
INB4 MoL is also written by Alex W. also he wrote harrypotter rationfic also probably the og harry potter AND lotr. ALL the books were written by Alex W
u/nytelios [+20] (8 hours later)
The real existential nightmare is always in the comments.
u/fish312 [+3] humanifest destiny (a day later)
Everybody on Reddit is him except you
u/akaltyn [+1] (19 days later)
Nah just Slatestarcodex
u/Devilsbabe [+8] (14 hours later)
What reference are you talking about? I totally missed that.
u/Noumero [+14] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (17 hours later)
Better with Loops - Through magics unknown, a young boy of eighteen found himself reliving the same month over and over again, with death only bringing him back to the same crisp spring morning. Time does not behave within his exclusion zone, and only bringing a permanent end to his life will restore the area to normalcy. Beware, lest you be trapped in the cycle.
u/thebishop8 [+5] (17 hours later)
It was in chapter 75, the Stats for Nerds chapter. This is one of the exclusion zone quests:
Better with Loops - Through magics unknown, a young boy of eighteen found himself reliving the same month over and over again, with death only bringing him back to the same crisp spring morning. Time does not behave within his exclusion zone, and only bringing a permanent end to his life will restore the area to normalcy. Beware, lest you be trapped in the cycle.
u/kaukamieli [+2] (a day later)
Uhh... What actually are exclusion zones? They have talked about them a lot, but I never got that really.
u/C_Densem [+9] LessWrong (than usual) (a day later)
There are types of magic and other weird abilities that threatened the fabric of reality or were too OP, or something like that, so they were "excluded" from the main rule set/general overworld, and only function in certain areas - "exclusion zones".
Why exactly they exist, who makes them (if anyone), and how they come about has yet to be revealed.
u/kaukamieli [+2] (a day later)
Thanks.
u/Atilme [+5] (15 hours later)
Chapter 75: Stats for Nerds in the quest "The Slayer of Horrors".
u/Noumero [+11] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (17 hours later)
Also a Worm reference:
that’s Yellow Canary, who fights with the power of song
u/jaghataikhan [+1] Primarch of the White Scars (18 hours later)
Haha I totally missed that one!
I love it when my favorite authors end up being fans of each others' works
u/I_Hump_Rainbowz [+12] (a day later)
...or his own works.
u/icesharkk [+1] (a day later)
Yeah talk about a twist
u/Bramble-Thorn [+1] (3 days later)
Loved the sneaky reference to Mother of Learning.
I thought it was not about MoL, but the Infinite Loops series of fanfiction stories. others becoming trapped in the cycle isn't really a problem in MOL, and Permanently killing Zorian will not end the looping, that is determined by a charge remaining timer independent of either him or Zack.
u/therealflinchy [+1] (6 days later)
what's the ref to MoL?
i didn't catch it.
oh month long loop.
u/None [+17] (4 hours later)
This chapter, more than any other, felt like it was written for me specifically. I like the concept of the full harem pairing as a source of humor, and seeing it used as a source of drama is even better; I love the concept of the Boundless Library (I've written a story about something similar to that) and unlike some in this thread I do actually like the reveal that cthulhuraejepsen is Alexander Wales. Why? Because WTC is your best work yet (of those I've read), and in the context of an already excellent body of work this is far, far more impressive, because it means you're actually still improving. Kudos for that.
(Was the Boundless Library a reference to Borges, or just a general unrelated idea?)
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+8] Fruit flies like a banana (6 hours later)
I actually don't remember where the Boundless Library came from. The earliest it shows up in my personal archives is 2009, when I used something similar as a "session ender" (basically, a short story written as a way to cap off a campaign that had lost its luster, so that those characters and loose plot threads would get a proper burial).
Here's a pastebin - on a quick read-through, it's pretty typical of the prose that I would occasionally inflict on my players.
u/HaramDatingSim [+16] (23 hours later)
Ever since he met Solace I'd been wondering how long it would take for the pseudo-intelligence injection to overcome Joon's crippling fear of his own sexuality and let him figure out that he signed up for a harem game and was playing it all wrong.
Turns out the answer was never, he had to be clued in by his girlfriend and the One True God. Sort of funny, sort of sad.
He just happily derped along, recruiting miss Posthuman-AI-literally-created-the-most-attractive-girl-in-the-world-especially-for-you, miss Contemporary-earth-girlfriend-with-pointy-ears, miss(?) Explicitly-down-with-the-experimental-coitus, miss Shameless-old-hippie-chick, and miss Worships-the-very-ground-you-walk-on... all without ever stopping to count the number of penises in his kharass.
u/icesharkk [+3] (a day later)
Wow
u/HaramDatingSim [+7] (3 days later)
Sorry, I meant "miss Shameless-old-hippie-chick-whose-species-is-a-lot-more-conventially-attractive-to-humans-than-you-designed-it-to-be", forgot that little detail for a moment.
u/therealflinchy [+1] (6 days later)
huh, now that you break it down...
guess the remaining members are going to be female too then huh. foreshadowing.
u/ceegheim [+10] (a day later)
Short question: Is Val actually elvish? Or are non-anima a separate race (because race is transmitted via the soul, not genetics)? As in: There would be one "non-anima humanoid" form, regardless of parents' races.
I'm asking because Val's parents should both be elves (except if Fallatehr has run a pretty long breeding program and she is half-elven; and I don't think this could work out, because he only got control over the prison once all the non-elves died off).
Then, one would next ask about the physiology of non-anima: teeth (elven-style or human-style?), aging (elven-style or human-style?), heredity, sexual organs, etc.
Naively I would have expected her to be physiologically elven (except for the eyes) and significantly older (choose a random age between ~100 and 0, which is the possible time-frame for the start of Fallatehr's non-anima experiment).
Hence, Val's age appears narratively determined: Out of quite a long time-frame, they happen to break out Fallatehr in the short interval where his one (guesswork) non-anima-daughter is in a fitting age bracket. Make that plus one for retro-causal messing of the DM (practically ret-conning, just like a human DM; even a mighty simulator cannot be expected to solve pspace-complete post-selection).
...and now I am sad that Joon didn't call her Null, star of the void, instead of Valencia the red. Or he could have tried for a Bobby Tables style name (I name thee "root", 'of the screamin' WHERE 1=1').
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+6] Fruit flies like a banana (a day later)
This is a question that I thought was in the text somewhere, but apparently is not, so will likely have to get answered/addressed in the future. It's definitely in my notes.
u/therealflinchy [+2] (6 days later)
man you're thorough.
u/akaltyn [+1] (19 days later)
.and now I am sad that Joon didn't call her Null, star of the void,
the whole point of giving her a name was to give her a new independent identity, so a name that referenced back to her situation as a soulless reject from society would't have been very nice
u/CouteauBleu [+1] We are the Empire. (a month later)
It was a really kickass nickname though.
u/reaper7876 [+21] (an hour later)
A Key For Seven Locks
As usual, the game layer seems geared to a more typical isekai experience than what Joon is contending with.
Also, unless I'm miscounting, this seems to imply that there will be two more companions joining the team (Amaryllis, Fenn, Grak, Six-Eyed Doe, Valeria, and two unknowns).
u/Makin- [+21] homestuck ratfic, you can do it (an hour later)
We already could sort of infer this. Arthur also had seven companions.
Also I really hope the game isn't actually suggesting he bangs the deer. Maybe the deer gets a humansona at some point?
u/ansible [+12] The Culture (3 hours later)
I think it is more likely that keys and locks may refer to what is most important to each of the companions. I could see how love and acceptance from a life-mate would be most important for Fenn. The others will have their own long-term needs in other directions.
u/reaper7876 [+11] (4 hours later)
I would certainly prefer it if that turns out to be the case (edit: not entirely true, on further thought. The conflict between Joon and the game is compelling, and this adds to it), but keys and locks are a fairly common anatomical metaphor, and by Joon's reaction, it was the coitus that caused the quest update; if it was about love and acceptance for Fenn, I suspect he would have received a progress indicator sooner than that.
u/ArisKatsaris [+3] Sidebar Contender (4 hours later)
Too lazy to go back and check but is the implication that they've never had penis-in-vagina sex before now, only oral sex & fingers?
u/reaper7876 [+7] (5 hours later)
Yes, this is definitely the first time:
Solace had given her herbs that would prevent pregnancy, but she’d said that they would take a few weeks to work. It had been a few weeks now, and though we hadn’t actually talked about it, I was fairly certain that it was on our minds. And, on reflection, she had said what she’d said to make it clear that tonight was going to be the night.
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+16] Fruit flies like a banana (5 hours later)
This was mentioned back in ch 53:
“Things have been worked out, between the three of you?” asked Solace, because I had been distracted for a bit too long. “Grak is something of a gossip.”
“I … did not know that about him,” I said. I thought back to him telling me not to sleep with Fenn. “Okay, actually, I guess I did. But we haven’t had that much opportunity to talk. Anyway, things are fine between Fenn and Amaryllis and myself.” It had been three days now that we’d been at the foothills of the World Spine, sitting behind wards and setting watches, looking out for an attack that we were fairly sure wasn’t going to come. Fenn and I were sharing a bed, but --
“I gave Fenn some herbs that will prevent her from having a child, but they’ll take a few weeks to start working,” said Solace.
I could feel my cheeks grow warm at that. “Thanks,” I said. “It’s not really … we’re taking it slow.”
Continuity!
u/Makin- [+1] homestuck ratfic, you can do it (5 hours later)
Yeah, I was surprised but Joon mentions it.
u/-main [+15] (4 hours later)
Nope. It's a direct reference to a gross, sexist saying. Talking about the relative value of 'a key that opens many locks' and it's opposite. Seems like something the game layer would reference, and is consistent with him getting set up for a harem by the game.
u/SoylentRox [+2] (4 hours later)
I really hope so because the alternative is some rather gross and ethically questionable acts just so he can finish the quest. Which presumably carries a significant reward, in games in this genre, companion quests provide a significant power boost. Even moreso because in this game, all his companions can be fielded at once, there's no party size limit. Also at least in other games in this genre, if you don't do key loyalty missions, you will be forced to sacrifice a companion during the main quest...
u/JusticeBeak [+11] (21 hours later)
Luckily it's an achievement, not a quest, so he isn't obligated to complete it unless/until the game says otherwise.
u/adgnatum [+3] (2 days later)
let's not do that one. [43]
Quests seem reasonably optional. But you're not wrong: there's not obviously even a game layer incentive.
u/reaper7876 [+6] (an hour later)
Maybe. If so, I'd expect it to probably be around the time that the Grove is restored. But then again, maybe not. Some of his other companions also have non-human anatomical features, the Doe just extends that farther than most. (A lot further than most, granted. Enough so for the Harkness test to become relevant.)
u/DCarrier [+3] (4 hours later)
That only helps if your worry is what they're shaped like. I'm pretty sure the deer is sapient, so they can consent to sex. The problem is that they're completely alien. It would make a relationship like that really complicated. Moreso than the other six members of the harem combined, including all the complications from being in a relationship all at once and the fact that one of them is a dwarf and is somewhat alien on da nad own.
u/nytelios [+1] (8 hours later)
The game's blatantly fucking with him. I fully expect it to be literal bestiality, because why not, DM?
u/Takashoru [+6] (3 hours later)
Now, the problem is going to come once Amaryllis and Joon are talking narrative, and he can't explain why he knows seven companions is important without causing big issues with Fenn. :/
u/lazaret99 [+4] (a day later)
Nah, Joon can just remind everyone that Uther had 7 companions, and that his journey is a reflection of Uther's
u/icesharkk [+2] (a day later)
Nah Joon won't remember that when seven locks and panic fills his brain
u/munkeegutz [+10] (10 hours later)
The interesting question for Joon's strategy here is "what do I do with essentialism 100?". Each 10 levels has given upgrades for most skills. If level 20 is a PhD, I expect level 40 to be world-class, and 60+ is pretty godlike. I'd expect the power ramp to be crazy.
That said, it seems like high levels of essentialism will give stronger soul defenses, as well as more options and possible faster control. I would expect to see:
- Respec skills at extremely low cost (every level at essentialism 100, perhaps at will for essentialism 101+
- Respec attributes permanently (he likely can do this already, but there is likely also the same cost, and it is most likely to be cost-free now)
- permanently store extra data in the soul (Fallatehr had pre-prepared modifications of his thralls which he activated on command, faster than you would expect from modifying de novo)
- modify bones directly, instead of just copying (upgrade own/others bodies; combined with storing extra data gives great options)
- read, modify or copy memories at will
- understand how to manipulate a soul such that its modifications are more permanent (-> modify Fallatehr to be permanently loyal)
- presently resist modifications to the soul
- Injecting a soul which lacks a body, into a living body (revive Solace)
- Extract information/understanding from bones (they have soul information, may be able to merge it with Joons own bones in an intelligent way to give super-healing)
In light of this, it would be good to get all your ducks in a row for this golden chance of upgrading your team.
- Level up with points in MEN. Move an attribute point from PHY to MEN, as well as those two ill-placed INS points into MEN. Being a mage is the real way to pick at the corners of this world, and he might as well take advantage of it (just one point lets him keep his lvl20-perks, which drives that choice)
- Discuss with everyone about any potential changes they might want to have applied, and any additional animals which they might want to have on hand for snatching skills. Perhaps get your hands on some elf bones?
- Go out looking for trouble (someone else to rob you), kidnap one of them, so you can rip his soul and apply Solaces (plus her bones = living solace in her own body). Do the same for Fallatehr, but mind-rape him into compliance first
- rip the soul information from the unicorn bones which confers super-healing and disease resistance, possibly also the temporal super-power. Apply them to yourself
- mod the skills and attributes of your companions per their requests
- fix the deer, of course
- get someone to design scars for Fenn that actually work. Mod her scars to heal to that configuration, and store a copy of that data in her soul, for reversion on command. Do that for everyone. If this doesn't work (or there isn't enough time), just clear the scars for her
Currently, he loses one skill point per five minutes if he over-skills. I believe that will happen even faster at high skill levels (emulating an inverse exponential curve). Perhaps every 2.5min at double his nominal skill level, and every 1.25min at 4x nominal. So his window with uber-essentialism will be very short indeed. That will limit how many of these ideas he can enact.
Thoughts?
u/None [+4] (11 hours later)
I agree with the general thrust of your post that Essentialism is probably going to end up being analogous to transhumanism/directed body modification.
But I'm also kind of wondering - in keeping with your lvl 20/40/60/etc power creep statement - if pushing Essentialism up past 100 will end up breaking the simulation in some fashion. We already saw the game layer get breached once early on when Jun pushed his mental stats too high (too fast?) and the admin had to rebalance things.
I could see Essentialism possibly breaking the game in either the whole "Neo in the Matrix" sense (allowing for more and more direct interfacing with the game?) or in a more subtle, in-game munchkinry sense. For example, what if Jun getting 100 in soul magic lets him respec his stats in such a way as to allow him to enter/exit the "forge frenzy" state at will? Maybe all those "useless" crafting skills we saw earlier in the story were actually a Chekov's gun.
Wresting away control of the magical item creation process from your current DM is kind of the definition of game breaking. Plus this would allow the narrative to neatly sidestep the party's general inclination to run all around collecting Mary's hand me downs like a bunch of magpies.
u/WalterTFD [+23] (18 hours later)
In particular, the notion of 'game breaking' in this world means you get 'Excluded'. Heck, it looks like one guy got 'Excluded' just for getting really good at farming.
I'd be super cautious about how hard I abused this particular system, it seems like it has a built in meta-system that polices it.
u/jaghataikhan [+5] Primarch of the White Scars (a day later)
Now I'm curious - is exclusion like a divine/DM-proclaimed thing? Or is it more that the other human/sapient kingdoms/state level actors say "This guy is super dangerous - avoid at all costs, go full SCP and keter-level quarantine stat!"
u/Putnam3145 [+5] (a day later)
It's been mentioned that certain magics (glass magic) or even specific abilities within magic (completely overwriting someone's soul data with your own) have been excluded, which causes them to be impossible to use even by Joon (many of the skills shown in the essentialism interface are unavailable due to exclusion) so it's definitely not a quarantine thing
u/munkeegutz [+4] (13 hours later)
if pushing Essentialism up past 100 will end up breaking the simulation in some fashion.
I was originally of the opinion that these messages were communicated intentionally to the player, but now with the 4th-wall break of Valencia, I suspect that they are a seam in the game which can be pulled on. It is likely that we'll see a bit more through Essentialism or Spirit
For example, what if Jun getting 100 in soul magic lets him respec his stats in such a way as to allow him to enter/exit the "forge frenzy" state at will?
It could just let him do that directly. Or perhaps Arthur (who did successfully do this) simply leveled his essentialism, and then grabbed some poor sap who was in a forge frenzy, read his mind to find the necessary state, and imposed that state onto himself? After all, he was king and could do damm near whatever he wanted.
On a related note, other plausible options at Essentialism 100:
- Force unlock of skills + level them up -> Spirit, Library Magic, etc (perhaps this is temporary, in which case he might be able to get hints about how to unlock them for real, or how useful/worthwhile they are)
- Add extra bones, or increase bone mass in various places. Whatever it takes to get extra kick out of them!
- Hack your body to have higher metabolism, if it means more energy / some other advantage
- Inspect Fallatehrs goons -- they surely have some soul hacking going on, learn from what was applied to them.
Another random thought -- Fenn can now do the same bone magic trick, too. If she can't copy her bones over, she certainly can let Joon do it for her.
u/raisins_sec [+1] (13 hours later)
Duration might not be the only thing that scales. He only tested that it's one-for-one at one point over the cap.
u/icesharkk [+1] (a day later)
Elf bones? Like fallatehr in the glove?
u/Noumero [+8] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (a day later)
Or like Fenn. I mean, yes, she is an excellent companion, but she also contains bones that can be removed, sharpened, and used for emergency luck injections. They could even be regrown later.
^^Eh? ^^Eh?
u/icesharkk [+6] (a day later)
Iswydt
u/munkeegutz [+1] (a day later)
Lol, can't believe I missed that
u/infomaton [+7] (an hour later)
Smith-invariant means that the uniqueness of whatever set is selected is guaranteed? (There are no other possible sets that could have been formed which would also have been valid according to the Smith rules?) Trying to buff my grasp of terminology and I couldn't find anything helpful with a search.
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+8] Fruit flies like a banana (6 hours later)
The terminology might be a little bit off, given that was written from memory (as it should be, in character).
The Smith set is the smallest non-empty set of all candidates who have pairwise victories over all candidates outside the set. For example, if you have three voters voting for three candidates:
A>B>C B>C>A C>B>A... then A loses to B and C in pairwise elections, C wins against A and loses against B, and B wins against C and A, meaning that B is the only member of the Smith set.
Normal instant-runoff voting sometimes selects a winner outside the Smith set, which means that it doesn't meet the Smith criterion. By first finding the Smith set, then doing IRV within it, the winner will always be within the Smith set.
u/infomaton [+2] (6 hours later)
the smallest non-empty set of all candidates
Okay, those words answer my confusion. I was concerned that if A B and C formed a Smith set, someone could rig a Smith set with just A and B, unfairly excluding C. "All" answers that. I was also concerned that there might be other forms of arbitrariness in privileging one possible set over another, but in a vague way that is reassured somehow by the word "smallest". Thanks.
u/Threesan [+1] (10 hours later)
Are there pathological cases?
u/Threesan [+1] (a day later)
After poking around a bit, it seems like this question doesn't have a short and simple answer. Relevant Wikipedia articles for example are fond of moderately large tables comparing various voting methods against various criterion, and no voting method scores perfectly across the board. I've yet to see Smith/IRV in such a table, but that pattern seems to hold.
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (a day later)
See here for my comment on the matter. Smith/IRV does have some bad cases, but my feeling is that they're mostly minor in the scheme of voting systems.
u/MultipartiteMind [+1] (a day later)
The Smith set(/'top cycle') filter is very exciting!
Once down to the Smith set, how to select the runoff method? Assuming one-elimination-at-a-time to avoid simultaneous elimination of consolidatable options (but what to do when two are tied-for-elimination?), choosing by 'least love' (fewest first-choice), 'most hate' (most last-choice), or something else? (The Minimax Condorcet thing, here choosing to eliminate the one with most 'losses' in any pairwise comparison (within the set of remaining candidates)?)
Finding that my electronic feet have followed Threesan's same path, what criteria don't the Smith/IRV approach satisfy, and/or what variations could be carried out to satisfy some or all of those criteria? (Wanting to understand the failure states better... at some point I should also try to better understand Arrow's Impossibility Theorem...)
Pleasant to imagine an AI non-interruptingly scanning all human brains, for all known humans as candidates, to select a Smith set. (That said, doing that in order to choose a representative for representative democracy might be self-defeating, compared to allowing all to separate into distinct inviolable universes. And then we're back to the question of atrocities and cases of a majority restricting a minority for better or worse, where 'better' and 'worse' are wholly subjective...)
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+3] Fruit flies like a banana (a day later)
The biggest problem with Smith/IRV is that once you're within the Smith Set, you're still doing IRV, and all you've done is cut out the worst possible cases. That leaves the problems of:
- Favorite Betrayal: sometimes a strategic vote would have you ranking your first choice lower than first rank
- Participation: sometimes it's better for your preferences to not cast a vote
- Later no harm/help: if a candidate X is ranked 1st, then changing the ranks of the 2nd and lower candidates sometimes harms/helps candidate X (which it ideally shouldn't)
But because you do the Smith set pruning, this kind of strategic voting becomes much harder to do, and I think that tends to minimize these problems (given that you don't actually know how the voting is going to shake out, everyone should vote honestly rather than strategically).
Of course, the bigger problem is that it's complicated and not super-intuitive, and selling a change in voting system to the electorate is hard enough even if what you're proposing is simple.
u/MultipartiteMind [+2] (2 days later)
Eep. Thank you for the summary! *thinking about how those instances can arise*
(...cases where your primary candidate would be consolidated to a secondary candidate, but the secondary candidate wouldn't be consolidated to the primary candidate, so support for the primary candidate which doesn't succeed risks dooming the secondary candidate?)
A runoff question: I assume there are the same problems with this (and maybe more), but what is this approach (in the paragraph below) called (and/or equivalent to)?
For three candidates, obtain the Smith set. If the Smith set is perfectly balanced, then a tie-breaker is needed. If the Smith set is not perfectly balanced, then represent the set as a perfectly-balanced layer plus extra. Remove the perfectly-balanced layer. As there are only three candidates, there is only one pattern/direction for a perfectly-balanced layer, not counting a mirror-image as different.
Example: A>B>C 5 B>C>A 4 C>A>B 4 | A>B 9/13 C>A 8/13 B>C 9/13 Remove 8 iterations of A>B, B>C, C>A (the underlying balanced cycle). Remaining relationships: A>B (1), B>C (1). A is the sole occupant of the new Smith set. [Second edit:] Maybe more meaningful to list all relationships and remove both the cycle and the countercycle in one step. A>B>C 5 B>C>A 4 C>A>B 4 | A>B 9/13 A<B 4/13 A>C 5/13 A<C 8/13 B>C 9/13 B<C 4/13 Remove 4 {A<B, B<C, C<A}; remove 8 {A>B, B>C, C>A}. A>B 1 A>C 1 B>C 1 (C drops out of the new Smith set, B drops out of the new Smith set, A sole occupant of new Smith set.) [/Second edit](What is this called or logically equivalent to? I assume so, but is it subject to the same IRV problems described? When applied to more-candidate cases, would more-candidate cases have multiple 'balanced cycles' that could be taken out, and would taking out different balanced cycles give different outcomes..?)
(...A>B, B>C, C>D, D>A... and then what to do about A</=/>C and B</=/>D... or if two cycles go through the same link in a single top cycle: A>B; B>C, C>A; B>D, D>A... How meaningfully to define 'balanced', and what to use for test cases to observe outcomes...)
[Edit: One could declare removal to be carried out for only end-to-end loops without branches (which pass through all candidates), but to do so is to proclaim other patterns unbalanced, in which case a conclusion should be drawable even when all in a Smith set. (Is a mirror-image (diamond-shaped) top cycle with two triangular cycles both going through a shared link in fact doable with voter rankings..?)]
(Inertia: Indeed. We can think of this in terms of 'If we had one chance in future to try to at-last do it right, with a new civilisation set up on Mars say, what would we do?'.)
Third edit: ...for four candidates, there are 12 possible rankings for a given voter... for X number of voters, wanting to calculate the number of (and ideally produce in a program) the possible rankings produced... can't use combinations directly, because not trying to pick 5 distinct rankings for 5 voters, trying to pick any 5 rankings for 5 voters, but to not have order matter. 1-3-1-1-1 must not be counted as a distinct state compared to 3-1-1-1-1. Needing something that spits out '78' (112 + 111 + ... + 1*1) for two voters, not 144 or 131, or something that spits out '3' instead of '4' for the number of outcomes when two coins are tossed at the same time... something that for three coins will give (zero heads, one head, two head, three heads) = 4. I knew this! I knew this..! I knew this, and I have no idea what it is!
For twelve rankings, each has a number of voters... X/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0, X-1/1/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0, X-1/0/1/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0 ... 0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/X, but what is the formula..!? Ahhhhh!
Fourth edit: Ah! Wikipedia 'Combinations' page, subset 'Number of combinations with repetition'!
u/adgnatum [+6] (2 days later)
but if we had enough of the Dorises, we could essentially use them as hold variables
Technically, you only need two (hey, constant space complexity!) and you can make your plan significantly less* insane.
- Copy ally's soul onto a Doris.
- Copy (a distinct) Doris appearance onto ally.
- Heal ally to Doris appearance.
- Copy ally soul back onto ally. (Do not heal them.)
When you're done you should make sure to copy the template Doris back onto the hold Doris. Good practice.
Pros: If anything goes awry after this point, conventional healing resolves it. Juniper is not particularly required. There will be questions, but ...
Cons: Forgo healing while disguised.
*Professional programmer. Closed course. Do not try this at home,
soulschool, or work.That means-- Juniper, NO.
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+6] Fruit flies like a banana (11 seconds later)
Typos here, please.
u/Makin- [+3] homestuck ratfic, you can do it (an hour later)
Sheilds
In the Stat Sheet of chapter 75.
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (7 hours later)
Fixed, thanks!
u/Kerbal_NASA [+2] (2 hours later)
could rephrase it as a the point of diminishing descriptive utility
as a the point -> as a point
[OR]
as a the point -> as the point
She her sigh was visible in the chilly night
She her sigh -> Her sigh
Also this probably isn't a mistake, just concise writing but I noticed:
[Star war was] condensed down into a little over four and a half hours
and
It was late when the play let out, which was no surprise given four hours of runtime and two intermissions.
seemed like slight contradictions.
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (7 hours later)
Fixed all those, editing it down to a consistent "four hours".
u/i6i [+2] (3 hours later)
I'm guessing you meant "more literal than figurative" in the Unwavering description of 75.
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (7 hours later)
Er, yes, fixed, thank you.
u/nytelios [+2] (9 hours later)
Just some miscellanea:
◼ Straddling Worlds: There are others like you, those with dreams of a place called Earth. The so-called dream-skewered are studied at the Athenaeum of Speculation and Scrutiny. You can travel there to find out more.
◼ God Botherer: There are gods in this world, titans of power and masters of domains, each their own creature with their own special rules. Tread carefully around these creatures, especially if you wish to someday join their ranks.
◼ The Lost King, Found?: Five hundred years ago, Uther Penndraig, figure of legend, King of Anglecynn, and ancestor of Amaryllis, disappeared from this world while
◼ The Slayer of Horrors (0/13): quests with : instead of -
Besides The Slayer of Horrors as it's a list, is there a non-spoiler reason these particular quests have a : instead of the prevailing -?
I looked at his show, then at his hand
Felt like an odd usage of 'show' if it means 'display'.
u/adgnatum [+1] (9 hours later)
I looked at his show, then at his hands, trying to figure out whether there were any clues. Nice shoes
looked at his shoes
...QWERTY confirmed?
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (a day later)
Fixed, thank you.
u/None [+1] (12 hours later)
[deleted]
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (a day later)
Fixed, thanks!
u/Laborbuch [+1] (15 hours later)
You weren’t hired, but someone suggested that you to be here,
that you be here / for you to be here
I looked at his show, then at his hands, trying to figure out whether there were any clues. Nice shoes might have meant that he was a professional,
at his shoes
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (a day later)
Fixed, thanks!
u/adgnatum [+1] (2 days later)
the odds [...] is remote
u/ZeCatox [+1] (3 days later)
Looks like you missed an e when you wrote "Petit Mort" this time : "Petite Mort" was right when the achievement appeared :)
u/RiOrius [+1] (3 hours later)
Movie marathons were something of a tradition for Arthur and I,
Should be "Arthur and me."
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (7 hours later)
Fixed, thanks.
u/crnislshr [+2] (17 hours later)
Meanwhile about "Murder in Duplicate" with many of Doris Finch. Have anybody here read 'Upon the Dull Earth' by Philip K. Dick?
u/awesomeideas [+1] Dai stiho, cousin. (2 days later)
u/Bramble-Thorn [+2] (3 days later)
This chapter was interesting, but chapter 75 actually interested me more. But first, having all that game layer info compiled in one place is a really good idea, but a lot of it is still missing. The Achievements, like that the Petit Mort and Key for seven locks mentioned in the next chapter. (the Key achievement really have to be sex with each companion, or is the unlock requirement context sensitive to the type of relationship Joon has with each one)
The Primary and secondary stat requirements are spread out all over the chapters. Also the virtues he has gained for the various skills.
But mostly, I want to know more about the things the quests have been hinting at been discussed previously? The Celestar has been brought up several times, as a land mark and the place the elves came from in multiple waves. In the world, it's not a secret. And I know nothing about that part of the setting. That is something I do not like about how the detail this story goes into. What I like about another story, Mother of Learning, is you read it an go, "that is a world you could make RPG supplement for, a world someone could run a campaign in"
It has a depth this story lacks. This story go so far into omitting 'unnecessary' detail, that the world comes off as piecemeal and broken. where everything outside the casts immediate area is just an empty facade.
I don't know what the celestar looks like. I don't know if it was a natural moon that was once habitable but now isn't, or if it was an artificial worldlet that was broken beyond repair. I know know why the elves came down in waves, and why each wave of refugees is considered a different type of elves. I want to know all these things more than I want to read about a date.
I want to see the exclusion principle gone over in some depth. How are things excluded, why are things excluded, what things can and cannot be excluded? Are things excluded for political reasons (as opposed to an existential threat to the world), what happens if people disagree with exclusion, can you reverse an exclusion?
If 'Captain Blue-in-the-Bottle' is in an exclusion zone, and things excluded cannot go outside the zone, why should anyone outside care about the Z-word being his? What does it being 'his' word mean in practical terms? Something people living in the setting would be aware of, something the reader doesn't.
Things like this make the story seem like the Writers of Lost got involved. They hint at a deeper intracy to the world, and deliver nothing but a lot of hanging threads.
Not something that we should already know, but something that should be investigated, Luck. How does it work, especially in relationship to Joon? That not picking up a sword, until you finally do, then using it perfectly sounds like gaining a skill at its skill cap from 0. That sounds really good if he is playing around with skill level swapping. Since he can raise his luck score is that something he can do? he can see Fenns character sheet, and his own. He could find her luck represented on the sheet, and his, and figure out how much luck it takes to have the luck she does.
The Doris, Issue, Instead of soulfucking her, what about Looking at a Doris, finding her probabilistic magic in the soul sheets, and copying it onto yourself as a temporary adjustment? Also, did you mean an area a thousand miles square (1,000 miles x 1,000 miles), or a thousand square miles? 1,000 square miles is less than a 32x32 mile area. That seems small for over 9 million Dorisis. I don't know if that is possible without modern infrastructure and supply lines. How does she feed herself? Unless Doris's are being created as food for other Doris's?
u/Ace_Kuper [+3] (6 days later)
I think i brought up something similar in terms of world being disjointed. This being pseudo D&d helps, but also cripples the story in some ways. party getting a teleport stone early on, world being many sizes bigger than Earth and Aerb being a literal amalgam of Junipers notebooks\stories, does make it seem like a collection of unrelated places that would not function in any reasonable sense.
I only now thought of this, but it's pretty ironic that people will argue about smallest unexplained thing in character motivation as being irrational and not fitting rational fiction. But i don't think Aerb being disjointed amalgam has being brought up that often.
u/nohat [+1] (4 days later)
From last time, seems to me that Jun's instinctive lie to not-mary is indicative of something important. Either the narrative, luck, or some hidden companion sense.
Also I cannot believe Jun is still going around splitting the party, not wearing his armor, and worse, expecting Fenn to leave Sable. Fortunately she's smarter than him.
u/therealflinchy [+1] (6 days later)
man, this chapter was fucking fantastic, absolutely hilarious.
u/AHaskins [+0] (2 days later)
Can I just say I really, really, really dislike the "harem" angle that keeps getting pushed? This is a wonderful story, and I'll still read it... but I'm going to stop recommending it to friends at this point. It's somewhere between "distracting from the best part of the story" and "borderline disgusting."
I've been DMing since I was 10, and I really enjoy both the concept of being in an amalgam of created worlds and the idea of the game overlay. Your writing style is also just downright satisfying.
But... damn, man. I really wish you hadn't started ridiculously playing up the angle that overshadows the reasons I like the story in the first place. It feels like that time someone in my games insisted that they play a class from The Book of Erotic Fantasy. D&D isn't a great place to solve sexual dysfunction. The worlds just don't mesh well.
Edit: Well, looks like a lot of people here just really enjoy reading about a man surrounded by women who are at risk of being devolved into nothing more than a variety of fucks. Which is a shame - their characters are interesting, and playing out a harem fantasy is really doing them a disservice.
u/AurelianoTampa [+15] (2 days later)
A tabletop group I was part of a few years ago had a DM who... let's just say, was quite a bit less mature (and several years younger) than many members of the group. Usually it was fine... until he would do something that just made us go "Dude, wtf?" And not in a "Oh, I'm delightfully horrified at the implications" way, but in a "Why do you think including rapey slime monsters was a good idea?" It was a conflict between players and the DM, where the DM wanted to add some sexual stuff that the players (and our characters) had nooooo interest in. We managed to bypass most of it, but boy was aggravating.
I see this story as something similar. The meta-DM has its own values and prompts - it clearly is pushing the harem angle. The characters though?
Juniper clearly wants no part of it. He's been Team Fenn since they first got together.
Fenn clearly doesn't want it - it makes her insecure.
Mary clearly doesn't want it, but had resigned herself to possibly needing to do so until she found out about the symbiotic loyalty link. They had a great chat discussing exactly why she would put up with being a love interest, but was relieved it didn't have to happen.
Grak... ha, no. Considering Grak left da nad hometown to avoid a Kiss (Cloacal-style) with da nad bondmate? Nope. And even if Grak was down, Juniper clearly isn't.
Six-Eyed Doe? No way. Juniper doesn't want it. And we have no idea what SED wants, or if it can even express it.
Val is like a child, and despite being Juniper-bait, he's made it clear that he's not interested in pursuing/taking advantage. She simply doesn't know any better.
I feel like the "harem angle" is being deliberately denied by the characters despite a DM that pushes it, and deconstructed in the cases of characters like Mary and Grak (and even SED, for laughs in this last chapter). If this is a self-insert, CRJ is Juniper, not the DM. A good player counters a bad DM.
Your edit says: " women who are at risk of being devolved into nothing more than a variety of fucks." I am honestly curious, after 76 chapters, whom do you see Juniper "fucking" besides Fenn? I feel like you're reading into this something that, so far, has not happened and has shown no chance of happening.
u/AHaskins [+5] (2 days later)
You and I have differing views on the concept of how much an author is beholden to the situations they create. You seem to be pushing the perspective that it is not the fault of the author for these tacked-on character traits. He is only responsible for Joon. That seems overtly wrong. The author has created this world full of fascinating concepts, interesting rules, and... oh, wait, is that a new female companion? Looks like they'll be naked and ready for sex all the time.
I bring this up because I just read through the whole thing again, and I couldn't help but notice that it was easy to just meet a new companion and assume that they would both have a reason to be naked near Joon often ("they're just quirky", photosynthesis, demon possession, even "I can see them naked via the soul") and would be a potential sex target (history of insecurity, free love, political reasons, or obsession). If you remove those tacked-on artifacts, they're all fairly interesting characters. Which makes it grate when the world seems to be trying to actively reduce them into "something to be fucked" (which was my intention with the phrase you mentioned). Even Grak doesn't actually escape that harem pattern, achievement aside, because he serves as a token sorta-male without being sexually threatening.
Since the topic of anime and isekai style has come up, it reminds me somewhat of the divide between women designed to be "sex targets" and ones that are full characters in their own right. Mikasa from Attack on Titan is a great example. When asked whether Mikasa would ever be in a relationship during the series, the author said something like "it's an insult to her character that you assume she needs to be with someone by default - she is her own person, and it would distract from who she is." I don't think that is necessary for every character, but tacking on a "being naked near my self-insert character" and "being ready and willing for sex with my self-insert character" for EVERY member of a team makes this story into something that it really, really shouldn't be trying to be. It's overtly distasteful, and I can't in good conscience recommend it to friends anymore.
At this point, it's distracting so much from the story that even if the final twist is something like "the DM is actually Arthur and he's taking a sort of revenge on Joon for what he views as a betrayal with Tiff," it wouldn't exactly matter. It would just read like an excuse for having a tit-shot and an implied offer in what feels like damn near every chapter.
u/lifelingering [+7] (3 days later)
I don't understand where you're getting the idea that the characters are being reduced to sex objects, when it seems to me that the author is taking great pains to do the opposite. Yeah, the harem trope has been brought up...so that it can be very forcefully and explicitly deconstructed/subverted. I get that you might prefer a story where it wasn't touched on at all, but this is a story about narratives, and this is a pretty common narrative that is worth addressing. If you see the characters as nothing more than "sex targets" that might be more of a problem with your interpretation than with how they are actually being presented.
And to be clear, I would completely share your objections if I thought this was actually going to turn into a story of Joon and his harem. I just don't think that's happening/going to happen, although I could very well be wrong of course.
u/AHaskins [+2] (3 days later)
I don't predict that it's going that way. I have already observed the manner in which the "harem" concept is being used specifically to cheapen characters.
It's the web fiction version of "oh no she tripped over me while coming out of the shower and now her towel is on the ground and we're on the floor together."
Instead, it's "I met a new girl who is bound to me for life, is my age, attractive, enjoys being naked around me for a contrived reason, and regularly ensures that I know she is available for sex."
It's... out of place for such an otherwise well-written bit of fiction.
u/nytelios [+6] (4 days later)
It feels like you're pushing your personal aversion to harems and more specifically polyamory onto the narrative. You're preemptively assuming every group member's only purpose is "something to be fucked" because the narrative is throwing poorly disguised sexual tension at Joon at every corner (and a reminder that he is a teenager here). Also, the bastardized concept of 'harem' isn't just a contrivance found in lousy wish-fulfillment literature or anime. Why does it have to be a cheap road to sex rather than an interesting exploration/deconstruction on sexual tension in a typical harem situation? The harem angle and interesting characters aren't mutually exclusive.
You opine that "D&D isn't a great place to solve sexual dysfunction" when D&D is actually a great place to solve anything. It is a social game in an open world: you can stage any type of discussion you like.
u/icesharkk [+4] (3 days later)
You're getting sucked into the DMs pace then. The DM is pushing it. The author has other plans. The whole point is that it's awkward. CRJ was Leary of self insert lit for it's notoriously bad tropes. He has a plan to invert this trope just you wait.
u/therealflinchy [+1] (6 days later)
Grak... ha, no. Considering Grak left da nad hometown to avoid a Kiss (Cloacal-style) with da nad bondmate? Nope. And even if Grak was down, Juniper clearly isn't.
it was quite explicitly stated earlier that grak is ok with experimental sex.
u/AurelianoTampa [+1] (6 days later)
True - but Juniper isn't.
u/therealflinchy [+1] (6 days later)
Yeah no lol
u/akaltyn [+1] (19 days later)
Da nad first and only comment about it was to say how much of a bad idea it was and how it had had serious bad consequences
u/adgnatum [+8] (2 days later)
If I map this story-and-comment onto HPMOR, my response would be 'You do know that Yudkowsky is not Harry, right?'.
That response doesn't work so well for a LitRPG self-insert story. Instead:
I was still pissed off at the game when I woke up in the morning.
The author insert objects. It seems to me you're confusing the author for the mysterious game layer instead of the protagonist. This isn't even the first time the game layer has been less-than-ideally-aligned.
(To be clear, at the object level I think I agree with you that I don't desire to see the story go there, but I disagree with the claim that it's already done so or overshadowed anything.)
Mapping this back onto HPMOR again, maybe this is a hint at the nature of the game. A deep and thorough simulation, populated by a sophisticated world-builder (and what it could take from our protagonist), adequately grafted with an RPG-type skill and combat system, and with achievements generated in the ... how did reaper7876 call it... isekai style?
My other response is 'this is a serial, maybe later developments satisfy your concern'.
are at risk of being devolved
I anticipate such a low chance of this happening. Especially if you mean something the author does wrong and not just something weird happening to the game-within-a-story.
u/therealflinchy [+1] (6 days later)
Can I just say I really, really, really dislike the "harem" angle that keeps getting pushed? This is a wonderful story, and I'll still read it... but I'm going to stop recommending it to friends at this point. It's somewhere between "distracting from the best part of the story" and "borderline disgusting."
as the other replies have said.. the harem thing seems more meta than something the author actually intends.
remember, this story is extremely rational, if it were going to end up harem, there would be a VERY sound, rational justification for that happening in the end.