scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/7yi8td.md

[RT] [HF] Mother of Learning Chapter 81: A Civil Conversation

• Author: u/Xtraordinaire Team Glimglam*

• URL: https://www.fictionpress.com/s/2961893/81/Mother-of-Learning

• Score: 258

• Created: 2018-02-18T23:18:51

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u/None [+63] (56 minutes later)

[deleted]

u/Lifetrancer [+38] (an hour later)

Magnitude tells you how much mana mage had when he was born/young, but the mana reserves grow with time and thats why Zach went from 50 to 250ish (reserves can grow anywhere from 3x to 5x, if I remember correctly) . So with the crown QI has 10x more mana than Zach.

u/Zorian42 [+19] (an hour later)

reserves can grow anywhere from 3x to 5x, if I remember correctly

But that's just what they say today based on 'normal' people. Zorian also said that in his case this didn't work, because he worked really hard on his shaping skills (=lowering the mana cost of spells).

So in case of 1000 years old lich we can expect him to have like 5x-7x mana growth just by practicing while also having some additional bonus from extreme shaping skills.

u/sicutumbo [+13] (5 hours later)

Magnitude just measures your mana reserves. Shaping skill allows you to go farther with that Mana, but it doesn't give you additional Mana capacity. Measuring Zorian's growth is hard only because he spent a lot of time getting better at the simple spell they use to measure Mana capacity, but his actual reserve haven't been changed by that. He can go a lot farther with that same Mana than a pre-loop Zorian would, but we have no reason to suspect that Zorian's Mana reserves have grown to abnormal levels, nor that there are easy methods of doing so.

u/Zorian42 [+7] (12 hours later)

Shaping skill allows you to go farther with that Mana, but it doesn't give you additional Mana capacity.

In the extreme case you manage to have shaping skills so good every single spell costs you half as much mana as for other people, you effectively doubled your mana reserves and regeneration. Yes, we don't know what the exact limit of this is, but if we estimate something like ~20-40 % cheaper spells due to good shaping, that would mean ~1.25-1.666 bigger reserves and mana regeneration.

Measuring Zorian's growth is hard only because he spent a lot of time getting better at the simple spell they use to measure Mana capacity

You are correct with this, but while Zorian managed to master that one simple spell, he also practiced whole bunch of different shaping skills - if we estimate that he's currently in top 10 % mages considering dimensionalism skills, that would mean that he's able to cast any dimensionalism spell cheaper than 90 % of mages ...

At this moment the only spell he mastered is the magic missile, his second most trained spell is probably teleportation. He hasn't trained all the other spells he knows that hard - he trained them by getting very impressive shaping skills in different magic fields.

btw would magic missile be even cheaper if he learned it like a shaping exercise - without the use of his hands? There still is some difference between reflexive spells and unstructured magic (source https://motheroflearninguniverse.wordpress.com/2017/08/10/basics-of-magic-spellcasting/ ).

u/CaptainMcSmash [+7] (5 hours later)

I feel suspicious of QI's admission though. Like why would you just tell your enemies you have 10x more mana? ZZ told him the truth of how the orb stores a functionally infinite amount of memories, so I have a suspicion that the crown also holds a functionally infinite amount of mana and QI just said 10x so they would underestimate him. He's probably been storing and building up mana for the past thousand years or for however long he's had the crown.

u/Tserri [+14] (7 hours later)

He said it to intimidate them. And I have no doubt the crown can stock an infinite amount of mana, I think he just gave an estimation of how much mana he gathered up to now.

u/thrawnca [+13] Carbon-based biped (21 hours later)

I have no doubt the crown can stock an infinite amount of mana

That would break everything we know about mana. It's like storing an infinite electric charge; not just "we don't know how to do that" but "so long, physics, and thanks for all the fish."

u/puesyomero [+1] The Culture (2 days later)

depends, its not keeping it inside the crown material itself and there is no upper limit to how big a pocket dimension can be.

u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)

it's not keeping it inside the crown material itself

Says who?

there is no upper limit to how big a pocket dimension can be

In theory, maybe, but there are practical limitations.

u/thrawnca [+13] Carbon-based biped (11 hours later)

why would you just tell your enemies you have 10x more mana?

Several reasons:

• He agreed to exchange information so that he could learn more about the orb.
• The crown is not an Achilles heel; he's still exceptionally capable and has abnormally large mana reserves without it.
• It's useful to be able to say, "I clearly have the power to do anything to you I want, but I haven't done it, therefore you can relax and actually talk to me without looking over your shoulder the whole time."

u/aeschenkarnos [+3] (6 hours later)

He may also have been spending it. I wonder if it's possible to compound mana (and gold) in this system? You can in some CRPGs: invest the mana (and gold) into building an artifact, disenchant it for more mana, or sell it for more gold.

u/Xtraordinaire [+14] Team Glimglam (an hour later)

At this point it's simply unlimited mana for combat purposes, as all the spells are designed for much lower magnitudes. It can only make difference in truly massive custom rituals, like maybe gate creation.

u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+16] (11 hours later)

It can make a difference in combat too. We know of one magic that costs ridiculous amounts of mana to cast: time magic. QI's massive mana reserves is probably what lets him haste himself in combat without needing to be in a black room.

u/coldinchitown [+7] (a day later)

Zorian has hasted himself previously- it doesn't require a black room. The black room is what allows for more extreme temporal acceleration.

u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+5] (a day later)

Oh. When did this happen?

(And if hasting yourself is that easy in terms of mana cost, why don't more mages do it? Or have a permanent haste effect on themselves?)

u/Zorian42 [+6] (12 hours later)

It's still possible that he knows some very good offensive spells but he hasn't shown them yet. What if he knows that pitch black beam the god touched hydra used, or some similary powerful yet expensive spell?

u/therealflinchy [+3] (2 days later)

when was it hinted that zach did it.. many many chapters ago?

u/None [+45] (43 minutes later)

[deleted]

u/Zorian42 [+32] (2 hours later)

I think they're quite confident in reaching Blantyrre now without help - they know how to 'easily' steal and operate the airship (now without damaging the core = at full speed); once they get there and find a Bakora gate, they don't need the airship anymore (they already have Bakora gate at Ziggurath and in Koth).

Btw I don't think QI fully knows how to operate Bakora gates - he doesn't use the one under Cyoria. I think he just realized what does the icosahedron do (from studying his own blessing) and how to apply it to self-made gates.

I can't find at the moment how exactly does the mana cost scale with the distance of teleport, but I suspect it's more than lineary (because 'mages chain teleports when going bigger distances' [ch. 65] and 'costs increase exposively with the volume being teleported [ch. 69])

Or over here 'people chain teleports all the time instead of simply teleporting to the destination outright' [ http://mother-of-learning.wikia.com/wiki/Word_of_Domagoj ].

So even if we estimate QI's mana reserves to be 16x bigger than Zach's (both same base, both divine blessing, QI +10xbase from crown, let's guess QI +6xbase from practicing shaping and having bigger reserves by using magic for 20 times as long as Zach) and we guess (for the sake of this argument) that mana cost increases quadratically with distance, that means that QI can teleport 4 times further than Zach (4^2 = 16).

That doesn't really get him to Blantyrre (that should be far away). Although one of the biggest problem with teleporting is that you have to divine where you want to teleport - which is way easier if you've already been there. Maybe QI has some additional bonuses in this area :-D

btw would QI pass ALL of the shaping exercises that Xvim would think of? (I specifically remember him being awed at Xvim deflecting one of his attacks with his hand :-D )

u/sicutumbo [+17] (5 hours later)

That doesn't really get him to Blantyrre (that should be far away). Although one of the biggest problem with teleporting is that you have to divine where you want to teleport - which is way easier if you've already been there. Maybe QI has some additional bonuses in this area :-D

Even with some huge range increases, there's no teleporting to Blantyrre. The maps show the island chains from Eldemar to Koth, and there if Zach can't skip most of those islands, then there is no way for anyone to teleport across the much larger distance to Blantyrre.

btw would QI pass ALL of the shaping exercises that Xvim would think of? (I specifically remember him being awed at Xvim deflecting one of his attacks with his hand :-D )

That reaction could be surprise that someone else can do something so impressive, not necessarily that QI couldn't do the same thing.

u/jaghataikhan [+2] Primarch of the White Scars (14 hours later)

Yeah, I got the vibe it was more of a "puny mortal just accomplished what took me 500+ years to accomplish" deal

u/aeschenkarnos [+6] (6 hours later)

Zach has a divine blessing? It'd make sense and account for his mana reserve. I can't remember this being mentioned, maybe it was?

u/LucidityWaver [+9] (8 hours later)

He has an abnormally large mana reserve that is, iirc, equivalent. I'm not sure, but I don't think it was established why and how; whether it was a divine blessing or a result of the time loop process or something else.

u/ZeroNihilist [+5] (a day later)

Does Zach remember when he acquired that blessing? I'd imagine that he might not, given that it could be subjective decades ago.

But it would be interesting to know if he did actually win over an angel with a feat that was subsequently removed from his memory (or simply forgotten), and if Zorian might discover it upon Zach letting Zorian read his mind.

u/Banarok [+4] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (a day later)

he got memory whiped remember?, but what seems likly atm is that some divine entity (angels?) sent Zach through the gate to help deal with the release of the primordial, something they don't want to happen. but it's just speculation.

u/pleasedothenerdful [+1] (16 days later)

I seem to recall the Gatekeeper program saying that the agent in the gate was usually given a divine blessing first.

u/SevereCircle [+1] (4 days later)

(I specifically remember him being awed at Xvim deflecting one of his attacks with his hand :-D )

The parry that launched a thousand ships...

I'm kidding. I hope.

u/cidqueen [+13] (59 minutes later)

Knowledge of Blantyrre wasnt a guarantee the way doubling mana reserves was since Q alreafy relinquished that information. Much of the tension of thw encounter came from what each side didnt offer as questions like when Zorian didnt ask about Q's gate stabilization design.

u/None [+4] (an hour later)

[deleted]

u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)

If QI learned that he's in a time loop, he would become a new level of dangerous. He would likely attack them immediately, to subdue and study them, and with his skill in necromancy he might even succeed.

u/None [+17] (an hour later)

[deleted]

u/talks2deadpeeps [+31] The Culture (7 hours later)

Honestly, I think the backers might be an angel. It was mentioned in this chapter that they can also place divine blessings on people, and the reason they wouldn't be able to communicate with Zach is because their realm is cut off from the Gate universe.

u/18scsc [+1] (18 hours later)

Wasn't it mentioned in the past that Zach's reserves has doubled for some reason?

u/Crazy_Demon [+5] (2 hours later)

They'll probably try going for that in a future trade. After all, they have his calling card now!

u/melmonella [+35] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (41 minutes later)

Hm, so it's possible to trade with QI for soul magic training. Highly dangerous, but...possible. I feel like Z&Z will use the possibility somehow in the future.

u/Xtraordinaire [+53] Team Glimglam (an hour later)

This has "BAD IDEA" written all over it. After a few restarts once they make some progress, the lich will notice this oddity.

u/I-want-pulao [+18] (an hour later)

Yeah but even one or two lessons might be worth it. This is not an opportunity that will come out of the timeloop!

u/Zorian42 [+19] (2 hours later)

One or two lessons in one specific area / several spells, then ask something different next restart. He has to know so many things! And they can trade the very same divine artifacts for those!

u/None [+26] (2 hours later)

[deleted]

u/Zorian42 [+26] (3 hours later)

Especially considering QI know about SO MANY different topics.

Alanic knew about fire magic and soul magic (Zorian studied both at once)

Xvim knew about shaping (with Xvim's methods it took Zorian years to exhaust all of it)

In both cases once Zorian mastered it, they became suspicious.

QI knows about:

• soul magic
• all kinds of combat magic, which can be studied independently
• a lot of history stuff that could be helpful
• dimensionalism magic
• divine artifacts / blessings / gods intel
• I do bet he has to have some really cool shaping exercises

Z&Z could spend 2-3 restarts on every one of those topics without QI becoming suspicious about them knowing too much ... just offer him some divine artifacts and information in return!

u/SpeculativeFiction [+1] (a day later)

Z&Z could spend 2-3 restarts on every one of those topics

I don't think they have time to cover most of those. At chapter 55, they had about 4 years left (52 restarts), and a lot of time has passed since then.

But yes, he is a goldmine of info. That's likely in large part why red robe helped him with the invasion. He may not even be on his side, but giving him enough info to steamroll Cyoria would grant him quite a bit of favor...

Especially as Red Robe is a soul magic specialist. I'm curious if he's going to be buffed to be able to counter Zorian and Zach, as he really wasn't strong enough to fight Zach last time they fought, which was around when he left the loop.

I'm hoping not. It's better to use him as a wrench in their plans, given they have Quatach, his army, the cultists, Sudomir, and the primordial to deal with after the loop.

u/DerSaidin [+8] (9 hours later)

This is one of few cases the time loop doesn't reduce risk so much.

They know where to contact him (address on the card).

This can definitely be left until outside the loop, or never.

u/I-want-pulao [+3] (13 hours later)

It doesn't reduce risk, yes. But this possibility exists thanks to the time loop. I really doubt they can approach him outside the time loop at all.

u/mcgruntman [+3] (15 hours later)

He said he's happy for people to just walk up and say Hi. It's best left for post-loop because looping time is limited.

u/I-want-pulao [+3] (16 hours later)

Yeah but they won't have that much to tempt him with. That Divine artifact that they tested? They can trade it multiple times in the time loop. They can only trade it once outside, and it would be a terrible trade then.

u/mcgruntman [+2] (21 hours later)

This is true

u/Crazy_Demon [+3] (13 hours later)

Then risk is the same but in the timeloop they can trade the same priceless artifacts (like the divine dagger) or secret magic over and over again for new gains from Qual. Just imagine what Qual would be willing to trade to get the Orb! That is definitely something that should be exploited.

u/melmonella [+2] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (2 hours later)

I still think they would do it. Possibilities are quite significant if they manage it right.

u/Crazy_Demon [+36] (an hour later)

So in chapter 62, we find out that Zach started as magnitude 25 and appeared to have it doubled without affecting his mana reserves. In chapter 8, he says he maxed out at magnitude 232. In this chapter, Quatach-Ichl basically said he followed the same path...so if he's being truthful about the crown's powers, he could have a magnitude of 2000+.

2000+. He's basically like a demi-god among men at this point. It makes me wonder how much magic he has at his disposal that's simply too mana-exhaustive to be practical for others to cast. He probably could cast the much vaunted "dragon magic" at this point.

It does make me wonder if its a potential weakness though. In chapter 26, Zach is able to knock the crown off Qual's head. Does that mean Qual lost access to his stored mana? He still would be magnitude 200+ ofc, but Zach has already shown to become exhausted during a battle, even with his doubled reserves.

I also wonder if the crown would work if Qual absorbed it into his body like he did with the dagger. I'm skeptical though, since if there would possible, it would be silly to risk leaving it on his head so that it could be knocked off like in Chapter 26.

u/Zorian42 [+20] (3 hours later)

One thing to note is that the crown works as a battery.

For a trained mage it takes around 30 minutes to replenish their mana reserves from 0 to 100 % [ https://motheroflearninguniverse.wordpress.com/2016/12/13/basics-of-magic-mana/ ].

So if we say that QI's mana reserves without the crown are the same as Zach's, that means that their mana replenishes at the same rate.

With the crown: QI needs ~5 hours to fill it, then he has 10 times more mana than Zach, but same replenishment rate.

So Zach + Zorian + Alanic + Xvim using some mana-efficient defense while keeping QI trapped (anti-teleport + soul trap field) can still theoretically force QI to go out of mana.

Even though some people suggest this after current chapter, we still haven't seen QI use any offensive spell so overpowered that Xvim/Alanic would have no defense against it. Might be still hidden up his sleeve, though.

u/akaltyn [+10] (7 hours later)

we still haven't seen QI use any offensive spell so overpowered that Xvim/Alanic would have no defense against it.

he's never particularly needed to before though. In all the past fighs we've seen in him during teh invasion he was fighting against pretty standard mundane enemies he could defeat easily.

He did the soul magic thing that started this all off very easily, and thats probably beyond every other soul mage we've encountered so far. If he can do something of that level as a spiteful whim he could do a lot more if he was actually feeling threatened.

u/Zorian42 [+1] (12 hours later)

To see what he can really do, we have to wait for the fight that should happen this restart. So within 3-4 chapters? So like 3 months?

u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+4] (11 hours later)

Remember how time magic works? Tons of mana is needed to accelerate something, and even then, to reduce the mana cost, you have to seal off the space you are accelerating in a Black room.

Yet QI is able to cast time magic on himself, without any sealing, to speed himself up several times in combat. That probably costs insane amounts of mana, and now we know how he can fuel it.

u/Zorian42 [+9] (13 hours later)

IIRC speeding up by factor of 3-5 is normal, when you want more you have to seal off the space.

Doesn't change the fact that it should be very expensive and he uses it several times during combat, though.

u/sambelulek [+1] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (3 days later)

I have to point out that even Zorian can haste himself. I forgot where, but definitely after he got Xvim's instruction on dimensionalism.

u/loonyphoenix [+26] (39 minutes later)

The lich seemed totally unaware of the possibility of a time loop, despite being 1000 years old. Huh. I always suspected he at least knew about the sovereign gate system, though didn't expect one to be active (since it apparently hasn't been for a while and since this one was started one month ahead of schedule).

u/None [+51] (54 minutes later)

[deleted]

u/loonyphoenix [+3] (an hour later)

After which Zorian found himself in the loop due to a weird quirk in the way the Lich decided to deal with him? I was thinking that's not an accident, maybe the Lich hasn't seen how the marker operated and decided to try to enter the loop, but first he was going to experiment using a random bystander to make sure that adding the marker to himself would be safe.

u/None [+39] (an hour later)

[deleted]

u/Chayim47 [+30] (an hour later)

Have you ever seen Red Robe and them in the same room?

Checkmate.

u/post_tap_syndrome [+3] (19 hours later)

Maybe I missed some kind of joke here, but weren't RR and QI seen together at the end of book 1?

u/Chayim47 [+5] (19 hours later)

Have you ever seen Red Robe, Kana, Nochka, and Kiri in the same room?

No?

Checkmate.

u/post_tap_syndrome [+2] (19 hours later)

Oh ok thanks for the clarification !

u/loonyphoenix [+12] (2 hours later)

Okay, so this is a bit of a stretch, I admit, but I think an even bigger stretch is that, as Zorian suspects, he got a functional copy of the marker broken in just the right way to get around its copy protection entirely by accident. It sounds as likely as when you flipped two random bits in a binary and got around copy protection in a game without meaning to, which I believe would be vanishingly unlikely.

I envision the following scenario:

1. Everything is as it appears, Zach brags, the lich responds thinking exactly what he is saying, and then starts the soul melding process.
2. While he's doing that, he notices a weird marker. He examines it, finds lots of copy protection, intricate work not commonly seen. Then he remembers an old tale about the sovereign gate and time loops, remembers that the loop is supposed to start during planet alignment, which is exactly now, and puts the pieces together. "That would explain what the guy was saying even better. Can I get around this protection?" he wonders, and alters whatever he's doing to try to replicate the marker in Zorian whithout triggering the copy protection mechanisms. Being the best necromancer around, he succeeds. Zorian seems not harmed significantly.
3. Then he decides to copy the marker into himself. But first he needs to make sure that if he does something wrong, he will have another chance. So he tries to modify Zach to become his loyal servant / stamps some notes into his soul and adds a mental compulsion to visit him next time he wakes up / does something else invasive to Zach's soul that trips the anti-tampering protection that triggers a new loop.

Now, I'm not entirely convinced by this theory (this giant coincidence is the basis of the whole story and might be excused as selection bias -- we wouldn't even have a story if it hadn't happened), but it is narratively compelling as well -- seems like a neat twist. Though this latest chapter did lower my evaluation of the probability of this theory a lot.

u/jaghataikhan [+6] Primarch of the White Scars (4 hours later)

I also feel like Zorian getting in by pure accident to be incredibly unlikely, but I feel like it's more due to divine meddling. There are some subtle hints so far (zach s doubled reserves, the artifacts, story about the founder of the Ikosian empire, the artifacts, zorian's presenxr, how zorian is almost the perfect complement to zach and fills out his weak spots, etc)

u/loonyphoenix [+10] (6 hours later)

But the looping world is disconnected from the divine planes. How would the angels or whatever even know that their intervention is required?

u/jaghataikhan [+5] Primarch of the White Scars (14 hours later)

I don't think it's the angels. Instead, I think it's from even higher up, direct from the gods. True, they've gone silent for a few centuries... to the best humans can tell. What if they've been meddling more subtly behind the scenes?

Even the loop isn't beyond the reach of the gods if it's true that it was created from a primordial as implied a few chapters ago

u/SoupedUpToaster [+2] (a day later)

to add to this it might be the god that originally creating the sovereign gate. as far as z&z know (and they have look/asked/investigated) the gate hasn't been activated since the original emperor. the gods are whimsical as we know but if something you created hasn't been touched (or you intentional made it difficult to use) in hundreds of years wouldnt you want to check on it an see whats happening.

i mean shit for the gods who have pulled away, this would be an epic movie that could/would completely alter the world. id pay to watch that movie so its not too far to suggest that the gods would watch as well. unless of course they are all dead, which is possible

u/Banarok [+2] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (2 days later)

i'm starting to wonder if red robe might not be an agent of the gate primordial, being turned into a gate is probably plenty horrible and freeing a brother that might have the power to break it out seems like a good plan.

however the priordial might have very limited power over itself after it's gateification, so it did what it could, it kept one person from getting wiped to make sure his brother is freed, something the angels having sent Zach is doing their best to prevent.

but it's just speculation, since i have no proof of the theory at all atm.

u/Banarok [+1] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (2 days later)

the angels probably scryed the future and didn't like what they saw, so they threw Zach into the gate to stop it since he's in a really good position to make use of all that time and do something about it.

so yes they are cut of on this side of the gate but they might be the ones that stared it up again after it's long dormancy.

u/Agrees_withyou [+2] (4 hours later)

Can't say I disagree.

u/Lethalmud [+1] (11 hours later)

I mean, what were the odds that the marker just randomly got copied when the bearer was hit by a big soul magic attack?

Assuming the marker is not super easy to copy: The odds that the marker got copied because the lich was purposefully messing with it. > The odds that the marker got copied by random magic side effect.

u/pleasedothenerdful [+1] (16 days later)

Isn't the marker self-copying? It covers the soul of the person with it like a self-replicating stamp, so if even a piece of Zach's soul with a full copy of the minimum viable marker got embedded into Zorian's, the replication feature (there to ensure the marker's integrity, continuity, and functionality) would replicate it again and again until Zorian's soul was covered in it, too.

u/Lethalmud [+1] (16 days later)

Why would it be self-copying ? The gatekeeper clearly indicates that the loop is designed for a single user.

u/pleasedothenerdful [+1] (18 days later)

Self-replicating across the entire soul of the Controller/Branded One. I can't find the passage now, but I swear I remember this was mentioned. It gets stamped once and immediately fractally replicates to cover the soul of the one marked with the marker.

u/pleasedothenerdful [+1] (18 days later)

To make sure the marker—including its function that monitors the Controller's soul's status and auto-restarts if his soul gets mangled or altered significantly—survives soul magic attacks, I would think. If someone attacks the Controller's soul and he's only got one copy of the marker on it, it's conceivable that the attack could completely destroy the marker before it can fulfill its function. If the marker is copied such that copies of it completely cover the surface of the Controller's soul, the only way it could fail is if the entire soul were completely obliterated at once, which is impossible because souls can't be destroyed by soul magic—only altered.

Maybe "self-propagating" would be a better way to describe it than self-copying.

u/DrainageCity [+36] (44 minutes later)

To be honest I was half expecting him to be a previous looper. Not due to any sort of rationality or hints dropped, it's just a semi-expected plot line. Of course, that means that it's just that much less likely to be the case for this story.

u/melmonella [+39] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (54 minutes later)

If he were a looper, he wouldn't let the looping device out of his sight.

u/Crazy_Demon [+15] (2 hours later)

I was thinking it was going to go down that route when Qual was about to explain how he doubled his reserves (since a fan theory is that the doubling is caused by the controller's soul being merged with a copy soul or something like that), but I guess not.

I think I'm actually glad that he wasn't a previous looper though. Makes his accomplishments that much more impressive.

u/literal-hitler [+1] (14 days later)

My theory was that he kept the crown because he knew a looper would come for it eventually, and he wanted to subvert the loop or something.

u/Lifetrancer [+10] (46 minutes later)

How could he know of the time loop? It can only be started at every planer alignment (so every 400 years) and the past few cycles were missed, plus the Sovereign Gate capabilities were always hush hush.

u/loonyphoenix [+10] (an hour later)

He's 1000 years old. It doesn't seem like the loop was particularly secret thing, just forgotten long ago. Plus, a randomly met aranean matriarch heard something of the sort. I expect a lot out of a 1000 year old archmage.

u/Crazy_Demon [+32] (2 hours later)

Spear of Resolve actually hadn't heard of it. She found out because the Ghost Serpent (who, as a spirit, could be eons old) told her about it.

So it's not unbelievable Qual hadn't heard of it.

u/loonyphoenix [+11] (7 hours later)

I've reread Spear of Resolve's confession letter, and you're right, she specifically sought out Ghost Serpent to get that information, so she didn't just happen to know things.

But in any case, the fact that an incredibly old being that does not seem particularly connected to the whole Sovereign Gate story knew about it supports the theory that it didn't use to be a really big secret in the past. Maybe another incredibly old being will know about it as well? (Granted, he's a sample size of 1.)

u/Zorian42 [+1] (2 hours later)

Seems like everybody knows about it. Alanic knows, Vani knows, Xvim knows ...

But it's the difference between knowing the tale and believing it. Or, in QI's case, knowing how much of it is true ...

u/akaltyn [+7] (7 hours later)

He could still be aware of it. Just sees no reason to bring it up. He gains nothing by revealing knowledge to them.

If they are loopers then he can fight them and/or defend himself far more effectively if they don't know he knows. If they aren't then he also gains nothing by making them aware of the possibility.

We have no particular reason to believe he's being entirely honest, especially when he says that he doesn't know much about the special abilities of the crown. Which seems a bit implausible if he's a super powerful sorceror who has had it for centuries.

u/FlameSparks [+3] (11 hours later)

He could tell it does have hidden features but since they are only active when the time loop is in place and need a very specific marker to use. He simple couldn't figure out what they do. And he is too busy with the invasion to be researching the crown at a whim.

u/pleasedothenerdful [+1] (16 days later)

Keep in mind he doesn't have the loop to use to destructively test divine artifacts. He's not going to risk losing an edge like a 10x mana boost just to understand it a little better.

u/Veedrac [+52] (6 minutes later)

The Good Student, Worth the Candle, and Mother of Learning back to back? Am I dreaming?

u/Iconochasm [+23] (47 minutes later)

I was just wondering which to post this same thought in. And glorious climax-y Practical Guide later tonight. It feels like /rational Christmas.

u/kaukamieli [+15] (an hour later)

The writer is obviously the same guy. ;)

u/I-want-pulao [+3] (25 minutes later)

Tis a good day :D

u/Hust91 [+3] (9 hours later)

The Good Student (this one?) is in a similar category as this?

u/Veedrac [+5] (10 hours later)

I'm not sure what you mean by category. It's just another story posted here that I like. I didn't intend for this to be a comparison, so don't take it to mean these are equivalent in any axis.

u/Hust91 [+3] (13 hours later)

I'm just very fond of the other two and wondered if the third is similar and if I had found the right website. :)

u/Veedrac [+8] (18 hours later)

It's the right website, yes. I think the overlap of people who enjoy MoL and WtC and people who enjoy TGS is sizeable, but they are fairly different stories in many regards, like pacing, how the world feels and the kind of thing they are trying to do in general, so I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't sit right with everyone. IMO The Good Student is the least good of the three, and I expect this to be a common opinion.

u/Hust91 [+1] (23 hours later)

Thank you very much!

u/chaos-engine [+2] (6 hours later)

I hadn't read the good student but now you've motivated me to give it a shot

u/MaddoScientisto [+2] (13 hours later)

Now I just need the origin of species and sideways in hyperspace and I got all the stuff I enjoy in the same day

u/Zorian42 [+21] (2 hours later)

There's still something about 'mana cores' we don't know about.

-the Pearl of Aranhal 'boasts an experimental power core'

-Silverlake's home is in area with weak ambient mana - too weak for her heavy wards + maintaining medium sized pocket dimension

-Silverlake claims that 'the whole orb is potentially achievable through familiar mortal magic. Yes, even the power source thing.'

The airship could potentially have crystallized mana engine - just more advanced than trains. Silverlake's home could run on souls - whatever. But I don't think either of the two mentioned things powers the orb. So what is the secret?

So to summarize what we know about increasing your available mana:

1. Using souls of others -to power magic items (Z&Z won't use) - either killed people or already 'prepared' souls (from soul-eating plants, or stealing from necromancers (from Sudomirs wards...)).

2. Engines running on crystallized mana (too risky for combat, very easy for enemies to detonate once they know what they're dealing with).

3. Some unknown power source (definitely used in orb, maybe in Silverlake's cottage?).

^ all those should give you unattuned mana - only for magic items (=items with preset spells)

4. Divine blessing - enhancing your soul (icosahedron+soul magic around your soul which stabilizes it). Enhances both maximum mana and mana regeneration (by the same factor).

5. Your own mana battery (which is recharged when you don't use mana and the stored mana is kept attuned). Enhances maximum mana, but doesn't change mana regeneration.

^ these two should give you mana to use as you please.

u/Tserri [+6] (7 hours later)

Your point about Silverlake claiming that the orb is achievable through mortal magic makes me think that all of the artefact can be 'reproduced' -with more or less success. What is not reproduceable though is their 'hidden function', that only time looper can use.

Considering this, there is a high possibility that Silverlake created a similar object to the crown which would poser her pocket dimension. It would just work with ambient mana instead and maybe it can't be moved/requires extremely rare materials.

u/Zorian42 [+4] (13 hours later)

From what Silverlake said I think that all the artefacts WILL be reproduced - expect Z&Z&friends having their own, weaker crowns in a few restarts!

tbh I think even the hidden function is reproducible, but considering that there is no living soul mage who can create such complex soul marker and then you need to bind the function to the marker ...

Silverlake created a similar object to the crown which would power her pocket dimension. It would just work with ambient mana instead

The interesting thing about the crown is that the mana remains attained to the mage. Ambient mana is unattained by default, so it would just be a big mana core that would charge in mana-rich areas and then power the wards. It would still require Silverlake to move her home to mana rich areas once in a while ...

u/GodKiller999 [+2] (3 days later)

No for something as complicated as the crown, just having a soul core producing ambient mana and a normal mana battery would do the job.

u/scalymonster [+5] (20 hours later)

It's possible that the mana could be being drawn somehow from deep within the dungeon. If there was a way to get past the way the deep dungeon interferes with teleportation/dimensionalism spells (perhaps with a stabilization frame like the Bakora gates or the Ibaasan's gates) then the high ambient mana could easily be siphoned though a dimensional gate to power a pocket dimension, warding scheme or airship.

There would be a risk of some magical creature coming along and destroying whatever used to stabilize the gate (if anything is needed) on the dungeon side, but that can be mitigated by having multiple gates for backup. The other risk would be the creature using the gate to attack you, but that could be reduced by making the gate very small - just big enough to suck mana through, but not big enough for anything to enter - or having other defenses against magical creatures.

u/None [+1] (2 hours later)

[deleted]

u/Zorian42 [+3] (3 hours later)

Today's chapter. Number 81. Here: https://www.fictionpress.com/s/2961893/81/Mother-of-Learning .

u/None [+1] (3 hours later)

[deleted]

u/Zorian42 [+2] (4 hours later)

I disagree.

#4 'allows the target to store and regenerate more mana'

while #5 just makes max mana bigger.

Plus #4 is effectively an addition to soul (set once, it stays there), while #5 is a removable item.

My original post was confusing though, so i changed it so it's clearer now.

u/MaybeEvilWizard [+18] (3 hours later)

All in all, Quatach-Ichl seems like a pretty stand-up guy.

I'd love to see Zack and Zorian try to join the invaders one of these days to get more info on their strategy and get closer to QI.

u/None [+8] (2 days later)

[removed]

u/MaybeEvilWizard [+10] (2 days later)

Eh, so he's a bit of a grumpy old man. So what? The time loop has killed more people than Quatach-Ilch ever will.

u/daydev [+17] (9 hours later)

For some reason I get a feeling of extreme paranoia that the calling card is a listening device. I'm probably overthinking it. For bonus uber overthinking, the address itself is a memetic hazard somehow ("I prepared explosive runes today" as a trivial example).

u/vallar57 [+15] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (5 hours later)

A battlemage, a mind mage and a necromancer walk into a bar...

Well, now we know the sercret behind QI's inexhaustible mana reserves. I wonder if they can try confiscating his crown during battle to make him lose the access to his stored mana.

I also wonder if this exchange means that QI will immediately confront them during the invasion, disrupting any plan they might have for that time.

Coming out as time travelers is probably a stupid idea in this restart. But it might work in the next one, should they feel it's worth it.

u/Menolith [+9] Unworthy Opponent (17 hours later)

Stealing the crown in combat is probably unfeasible. Having his mana reserve decimated in the classical sense of the word when he needs it the most is a devastating blow, so I'm sure that QI has spent a considerable amount time and effort to ensure that that does not happen.

u/None [+4] (6 days later)

[deleted]

u/Menolith [+3] Unworthy Opponent (6 days later)

...and here I thought I was being clever.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+3] Father of Learning (17 hours later)

Why do I have the feeling he's going to hit them with a soul magic attack that's going to incapacitate them down to like, 3 restarts?

u/None [+1] (2 days later)

[removed]

u/SevereCircle [+5] (4 days later)

QI said that souls can't be truly destroyed, but regular death is certainly possible.

I think soulkill is a function of one of the artifacts and it just ejects them from the time loop.

u/None [+2] (4 days later)

[removed]

u/SevereCircle [+2] (4 days later)

That would certainly throw a wrench into ZZ's plans. We're still hoping enough of the artifacts will make the AI Helper dude more useful, right?

u/I-want-pulao [+10] (23 minutes later)

I'm not quite sure what was the point of QI stabbing himself with that dagger.

If they can get Alanic or someone to look at Zach's stabilization frame - double mana for Zorian! You get a mana boost! And you get a mana boost! Everyone gets a mana boost!

u/trobertson [+54] (35 minutes later)

He's just storing it. He's a skeleton, remember? He's gotta use that fake flesh for something.

u/I-want-pulao [+7] (an hour later)

Yes, but that divine dagger could've fucked him up. I mean - he says he will take a risk but.... WHY. He's lived a millennia, he did that by fucking around with divine artifacts?

u/Xtraordinaire [+37] Team Glimglam (an hour later)

Because it's not really 'him'. It's just a pile of bones and ectoplasm and a few trinkets. Precious trinkets, but trinkets nevertheless. Plus he did scan the dagger beforehand.

u/JiggyRobot [+16] (an hour later)

I assumed that he stored it in some sort of pocket dimension (not actually inside himself). Also, the divine dagger could maybe mess with his skeletal body, but his soul would just return to its phylactery. There is probably less risk to him than a normal person would have.

Though it is a fair point. Maybe he thought it just looked cool and impressive?

u/Menolith [+7] Unworthy Opponent (16 hours later)

He has a theatrical streak. I assume that the scans he performed included effects which would have tripped off any of the dagger's abilities which could've harmed him, so the risk of anything going wrong was practically nonexistent.

u/SevereCircle [+2] (4 days later)

Until I read the comments I assumed that what Z&Z saw was just an illusion to hide where QI keeps his bag of holding or something.

u/I-want-pulao [+1] (4 days later)

ZnZ should be powerful enough to not be taken in by illusions at this point, surely.

u/SevereCircle [+2] (4 days later)

Even Zach has only had one lifetime to master his skills (plus some shenanigans). Quatach-Ichl is over a thousand years old and probably has shenanigans of his own. It's unlikely this was his first time posing as some random guy.

And it said specifically at the start of the chapter ZZ were fooled by QI's illusions. Or was that your objection?

u/I-want-pulao [+2] (4 days later)

Yeah but illusions are a low lying fruit - how much can they be developed? That was my question.

u/SevereCircle [+1] (5 days later)

Zorian's already able to edit short term memories and sense data enough to walk past non-mind-magic-resistant guards without them noticing/remembering. That's good enough for now.

u/I-want-pulao [+1] (5 days later)

So being that good, can they be taken in by illusions as easily? Especially when they are hyper aware since they are next to their most dangerous enemy.

u/sicutumbo [+5] (5 hours later)

Well, he's a lich, and has no actual body. His skeleton body is for combat/intimidation, but neither is more 'him' than the other.

u/melmonella [+9] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (37 minutes later)

I doubt it's that simple.

u/FlameSparks [+5] (49 minutes later)

QI did say the magic is composed of Divine magic. But that begs the question can it sill work with normal magic if at a lesser level cause Zorian wouldn't sneeze at even a 1% increase.

u/Zorian42 [+7] (2 hours later)

If they can really look at Zach's frame (let's hope this won't trigger the restart mechanism), then yeah, Zorian will love this.

Still waiting for them using the orb's pocket dimension combined with black room to study / practice something for several months.

u/windg0d [+8] (6 hours later)

They tried bringing the orb into a pocket dimension and it overloaded it and shut down immediately

u/Zorian42 [+5] (13 hours later)

and THEN they thought about the fact that pocket dimensions touch the reality in only a small place (the anchor), so instead of sealing the big black room, they could seal off only the small anchor while using the already existing time dilatation facility.

u/None [+4] (an hour later)

I think the tip off that divine magic is hard to detect with classical magic will end up being more important. They also asked him further questions on how to detect it. This could give them new insights into how to go about learning about divine artifacts that when combined with their willingness to destroy the artifacts in the process of researching them leads to an understanding far harder to come by normally.

u/Veedrac [+8] (40 minutes later)

A Zorian army becomes ever more likely. How appropriate that the queen bee gets a crown.

u/Banarok [+1] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (2 days later)

zorian could be a golem-lich with a hydra-mind, his main body being safe in the hole somewhere just absorbing mana all the time while his simulacrums run wild.

u/JiggyRobot [+2] (an hour later)

Zorian has soul sight now, he might be able to investigate it himself. On that front, did they ever try to get Zach soul sight? Zorian mentioned it as a possibility before but it hasn't been brought up again since.

Also, Zach has more than double the normal mana doesn't he, or maybe I am wrong, I can't remember the exact numbers getting thrown around?

u/FlameSparks [+5] (11 hours later)

The marker make fast methods unusable as it registers them as attacks so Zach has to go the slow way by pure shaping exercises.

u/JiggyRobot [+3] (14 hours later)

Yes. But Silverlake brewed them a potion that grants actual soul sight. Zorian drank it, and there was mention of Zach trying it as well (but they were concerned it would cause an early reset).

This was for full soul sight, not just the personal one that Zach has been working on improving.

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)

Well, Zorian referred to the soul potion as being like the accelerated perception training except even more so (chapter 74). Chances are it can't be used on Zach.

u/izikblu [+10] (23 minutes later)

Mm, fire, I like fire, can't wait for the next chapter (except, I guess I will)

u/silver7017 [+9] (15 hours later)

looks like we have a solid lead on a new tier of magical fuckery. QI's blessing is made out of divine power, whatever that actually ends up being, which is impossible to detect except for very uncommonly experienced soul mages. this type of energy could pretty easily answer questions about how the bakora gate spirit works, as it seems to act like a spirit, but isn't detectable in any normal way. that gate opening ritual the aranea sorted out might be Zorian's lead into actually interacting with things made from divine power.

u/distrofijus [+5] (16 hours later)

I've actually asked the author about divine magic in the comments of worldbuilding site (about magic types) and his answer about divine magic was: It is indeed not accessible for non-divine entities. Even the angels are basically drawing upon certain blessings and mechanisms left to to them by the gods rather than being innately capable of it themselves.

No new tier magic. Maybe one can learn something from it, but no way to influence it. It is very unlikely that bakora gates are created with divine magic so don't think it will influence it a lot.

I also think that 2x multiplier is for massive mana pool people like QI or Zach and 2x rate is a massive simplification so it is easier to understand for people how this blessing works. All it does it stabilizes the mana. Chances are it would give larger boost for smaller mana pools (lets say 5x, more) since the smaller pools are easier to stabilize. There aren't that many people with divine blessings and the it's not like you can accurately measure mana pools anyway. It is all rough estimates.

u/Zorian42 [+4] (a day later)

2x multiplier is for massive mana pool people like QI or Zach (...)

I actually thought about this in terms of the crown, too.

From what we know, their current magnitudes (in terms of magic missiles) are:

• QI: ~250
• Zach: ~232 (can he cast invisible ones now?)
• Zorian: ~35 (also before he could cast invisible ones)

If QI says that the crown makes his reserves 10 times larger, that would mean the capacity of the crown would be ~2250 magic missiles (in terms of people who can cast missiles effectively).

Fully trained mage in area with sufficient ambient mana can fully restore their mana in 30 minutes. So Zach or QI wearing crown can fully restore in 5 hours, while Zorian would need about 40 hours.

u/Nickoalas [+1] (2 days later)

It's an even greater benifit having the crown and exra 2250 because the benefit is not strictly linear. It means he has had 10x more mana regeneration time once the capacity of the crown is used.

Casting at the rate of 1 magic missile per second it will take 37.5 minutes to cast 2250.

He hasn't even touched his natural reserves yet and he's had 37.5 minutes of mana regen pumped into the crown.

u/pleasedothenerdful [+1] (16 days later)

My understanding was that mana regen required something like meditation--peace, quiet, and concentration. I don't think you can mana regen at all during combat.

u/silver7017 [+3] (a day later)

think of it like material science, in which each sort of distinct magical energy is a material used to build something. mana is used to build common spells, and is also burnt to power them. sometimes physical materials are used (in spell formula) to support and stabilize things made of mana. primordials seems to be made of something distinct as well, as primordial essence is used to create some effects which the story suggests are not possibly with normal magic alone. souls are made of something different. It is only detectable using soul sight, and it clearly has different properties from mana - it doesn't seem to be usable to make any sort of spells, it can nourish spirits and magical creatures who consume it, it can produce mana, and it can be made functionally indestructible (this is assuming only one magical material is used to make souls, which might not be the case). divine power seems to be another distinct sort of building material. the frame around QI's soul is made from it, which means that it can apparently be made into something which can stabilize soul material. its other important quality is that it cannot be detected even through typical use of soul sight. this is the important quality which potentially reveals the mechanism for many things in this world which weren't yet explained: the perfect ability of divine artifacts to resist any sort of magical analysis, the perfect concealment of the bakora gate spirits. there may be more, but those come to mind mainly because they are both perfect concealment effects. it seems to me that an excellent reason for why these things cannot be detected is if they are created entirely from this divine power material. I am not suggesting that any mortals would be able to do much with divine power, but that the bakora gate ritual might be the key to developing an interface to detect and interact with existing divine constructs.

also, bakora gates require some obscure means of contacting the gate spirit which is unknown to modern magic as well as a convenient means of mentally communicating with the spirit to receive and transmit the gate code. that is quite a high bar of personal ability and one which humans don't meet. plus they are extremely widespread, meaning that whoever built them probably was not a small, elite group but instead a population. if they weren't made by and for gods, I am not entirely sure what sort of horrifyingly powerful entities they were made for.

u/FishyBinder [+5] (a day later)

What makes you think the gates weren't made by the gods for humans? The proper method of using them was probably just lost at some point, and the spiders accidentally found a method that is close enough to the lost method to work.

u/distrofijus [+1] (2 days later)

We know very little, mostly some speculations.

They are very old.

General consensus was the dimension gate spell was reverse engineer from those gates.

Looking how aranea is using crystal mana to open connection we can conclude that a long time ago ambient mana might have been much more dense (or not).

I would think this is legacy of another great magic civilization. QI was complaining about how non-sharing mages were millenia ago and just how much knowledge was lost. I would think that most of (barely surviving) heritage of this civilization was lost on that period.

The first ikosian emperor created his empire after he used an artifact. But he just found this artifact somewhere and used it. It does not mean that he was the first user ever. Those gates could have been from previous users / civilization which flourished by usage of this divine time dilation artifact.

u/silver7017 [+1] (2 days later)

that is a good point. it is already established that gods can grant magical powers, so it would be trivial to grant chosen humans with the specific powers needed to operate the gates.

u/distrofijus [+2] (a day later)

You are looking at the wrong material science. For me the best analogue for mana would be science related to electrical networks (EN). Not sure if you had any exposure.

Souls are... well, mana sources. So in EN think of them as of generators/energy sources. Mana shaping or magic formulas are the pathways to limit the flow. A schema in EN. you think what you need to do and you start designing schema. At least I'd think author had some inspiration for electrical networks. Unstructured magic/mana shaping exercises allow you create such schemas on the fly. Some time ago (like 25-30 years), the domestic appliances like TVs came with their own EN schemas attached. If something was broken and you were knowledgeable enough, you could fix the item.

Mind magic - the best analogue would be networking/pcs. You find the node you are interested in, check the ports, perform some remote flaw exploiting technics and you are intruded on someone elses PC (mind) and you either steal stuff or just mess everything up (mind bomb). There are different OSes (aranea / whatever), so the approach for different species is a bit different.

For soul magic I cannot come up with exact analogue, but it's something like electromagnetism. The changes in electromagnetic field phases/whatever can generate electricity. You can see electromagnetic fields. The soul well is the huge electromagnet which tries to pulls various random electromagnetic entities (souls). If you can see magnetic fields, it is much easier to avoid impact.

Now the divine magic is something totally different. It's like metal making industry, where gods can build a factory and do some heavy metal working (like building metal pots, spoons, knives, whatever). The general public (or even the lesser forms) can put some use to it, can maybe break the stuff, but have no way to the metal furnaces to create something from metal. Angels that left are able to create something like blessing because it's like form created by gods, and they have access to furnace, so they can fill it with hot metal and know how to cool it, can produce something.

While someone can get some aspirations (like try to create knife from stone or whatever), the science for this is way beyond and there's no way to replicate the whole industry until you ascend from ant/critter to the god level and then you may start fiddling with industrial stuff.

Can you understand hardness of diamond without microscope, without knowledge of atomic structure, etc. I guess the similar limits apply understanding divine magic.

As for contacting gate spirits, the easily understood material networking technique is "port knock". If you want to connect to something on port you need D, first you need to contact port a, wait a second, contact port b, wait two second contact port c. Only if you follow the correct prior sequence, connection to port d will be accepted. No need for divine magic.

u/silver7017 [+1] (2 days later)

I admit that I am familiar with electromagnetism and fundamental electronics only, any deeper disciplines in that branch of science/engineering are not within my purview. the main problem with looking at mana like electricity at all is that electricity always needs a medium. mana can be used to construct things all on its own. that's what spells are. that comparison would hold water if, in this world, mages needed some sort of physical object to cast magic - a staff or wand or similar item. spells, however, stand on their own. mana is not electricity-like, it is much more like a building material that can also be consumed for energy.

looking at divine works as if they were steel is a perfect analogy for what I was trying to convey, if steel were also impossible to perceive normally. I've made small batches of crucible steel, so I am familiar with what a pain it is. you can understand the hardness of a diamond (or steel for that matter) by simply inspecting it. you cannot understand why it is so hard without a deeper understanding and better tools (tools which, in this case rest in the hands of the gods alone).

perhaps you misunderstood my statement. I do not think that Zorian will at any point be capable of "casting divine magic" or anything like that. that doesn't seem like it is a thing at all. I am suggesting that, through this lead, they may gain the ability to detect and scrutinize existing divine works, which will put them head and shoulders above anyone else in terms of making use of them.

regarding gate spirits, the problem is that with networking, things are arranged into neat little routes, with no real analogue for free space. if there is no connection between two points, you can never move between them. this allows many schemes in which it is very easy to occlude things. this pattern does not hold for the reality of the MoL world. generally, when you have power in some field, you can detect that thing. at the very least you can detect the existence of a thing. the ability to hide the existence of something is generally not all-encompassing. invisibility spells work imperfectly and work through optical trickery - there are no illusions that 'make the area look empty' directly. methods of reducing the detectability of a magic item are still limited to reducing its profile, not hiding it entirely. hiding from soul perception also seems to reduce visibility rather than hiding entirely (as red robe was still able to find Zorian eventually), and pocket dimensions can also be detected by those who know enough about them, despite their normally hidden state. telepaths using 'normal' skills can reduce or inflate their telepathic signature, but not disappear entirely. 'going dark' and mind blank seem to be the only other examples of any sort of perfect effect, and there seem to be some dire drawbacks and oddly specific techniques to make use of them. I would be shocked if something deeper was not at work with that. so given all that - knowing that a spirit exists, knowing how to detect spirits/souls, how to detect minds, how to spot a pocket dimension if it is hiding in one, and still not being able to detect the spirit without this specific and obscure spell? that isn't a security protocol using known magic, that's something outside it.

u/distrofijus [+1] (2 days later)

I overgeneralized a lot as well. I was talking about spell formulas / crafting. The tools which allows you feed it with your mana and you don't need to do anything else. What I meant it really translates very well into our general technology. So those schemas relate only to crafting and mana is energy which powers such constructs as electricity powers out technology.

And yes, I totally agree that mana is much more different than electricity.

Divine magic is very very interesting topic. (There are at least two more: spell formulas of aranea. medical magic). But Z&Z are on very very short time. Zorian needs to improve his soul magic ASAP as much as possible (if you'd see my other speculation about soul bonds), also continue into dimensionalism studies. They are out of time and connot fork larger amount attention to the studies of these subjects. At this stage we can just speculate on this fantastical topic.

The reason why QI was able to spot divine construction - he should have a VERY VERY ADVANCED soul magic/perception. And even with high skill like this he was barely able to detect this divine construct. I would also think he noticed soul strain of divine magic. The different strain of divine magic should be applied to physical forms and I'm not sure what kind of perception one needs to detect structure of divine enhancement. The general detection seems to be easy enough - otherwise people wouldn't distinguish divine items easily like this. But unfortunately I don't think we will see any headway into this...

As a side note to this all divine stuff I also like how the author used the modern myth "the stuff they were producing in the past was better quality than today". This argument is destroyed by statement "they made a lot of crap in the past and only quality items survived so you get a quality bias".

talking about networking and gate spirits, I can point out to dedicated private network. What is even more likely - master gate we don't know of which is handling the connections between all the nodes. The mechanism similar to Zorian uses to exchange information between his simulacrums using his soul. the soul/mind connections are idle and since there is no traffic you cannot detect anything. There is a single soul overlooking whole network, while each remote node has its identification (like simulacrum 3 for Zorian). And via soul links separate gates can communicate/coordinate with opening gate. It is simple explanation and if you rely on argument like Occams razor it is more likely than divine craft.

u/silver7017 [+1] (2 days later)

I don't really want to venture too deeply into speculation into where the story will go in the endgame, but I do at least expect Zorian to end up as more of a soul entity than not in order to get out. he's already most of the way there.

that gate network method is some pretty good thinking. are you an engineer by any chance? let me make sure I understand what you are suggesting: there is a single gate spirit which is capable of producing dimensional gates, creating simulacrums and using its soul to communicate with them, using mind blank, and communicate mentally with (at a minimum) humans and aranea. the gate overlord spirit is somewhere, it ultimately doesn't matter where. it creates and permanently maintains a simulacrum for each gate frame. when some specific signal is received at a gate frame, it reveals itself and contacts the person who sent the signal to find out the address of the target gate. it then contacts the overlord to coordinate with the simulacrum at the target gate, and the two simulacrums communicate through the overlord to produce the dimensional passage. that's actually a really nice solution, especially considering Silverlake's insistence that massive mana batteries are within the reach of mortal magics, which would allow a spirit to support so many simulacrums indefinitely.

u/distrofijus [+1] (2 days later)

The sovereign gates only deals with souls anyways. The original zach soul was transferred into machine. The rest of souls were copied together with bodies. When Zach will exit (administrative mode), his soul will be transferred back to his original body. So it is very unlikely there will be a solution which involves anything else besides soul entities.

I'm not a tech. engineer, I suppose I like puzzles.

Yes, I think that generic design for gates is like you've described. I'd say some little details are different. Like: The main soul/gate would be actually the one under Cyoria mana hole and has terribly large original mana pool + ultra divine blessing. Cyoria - because the largest mana hole, so the best place for original/central/modified soul to regenerate mana.

Remote gates are designed so that simulacra upkeep is the minimal (like Zorian cut his upkeep with golem design). This design takes it to extremes. There is no mind blank - the gate would be reachable via mental contact, but specific engagement sequence / port knock is either unique for each gate or same for every node. Each gate node is very passive+gate specific design makes it very difficult to notice that there's soul (or simulacra) present. We didn't hear any comment from a mage with a very well developed soul sight though.

I'm not sure there's a need for mana battery, however remote node have "limited" mana allowance from coordinating node - that's why for gate to open, enough local ambient mana concentration have to be present. It is possible that there is a mana battery present which absorbs ambient mana. By using crystallized mana aranea hasten mana absorbtion process.

But, as always, the author might have designed it some other different fashion. However such design we are discussing here makes a lot of sense.

u/Laborbuch [+7] (8 hours later)

Could someone explain to me why no one bats an eye at QI implying to be aware of the time loop?

Personally, I'd have gone crazy in a matter of weeks if I had to impersonate a complete beginner at magic for several years but… eh, I'm getting a little off-track.

Or is this an editing artefact?

---

Also, typos:

I'm looked into you a bit before coming here,

I’ve

If we keep stirring shit up time and time again, sooner or later they will all decide to set aside their differences for long enough to wipe out before getting back to killing each other.

wipe us out

I have a feeling that would still end as the loser in that exchange.

that I would

u/Saffrin-chan [+35] (9 hours later)

He's not implying knowledge of the time loop. He's saying that their current skill level would take years to get to, but his background check showed them as ordinary students for the past few years. So he's assuming that they've been pretending the entire time they attended school.

u/Laborbuch [+4] (10 hours later)

Thank you, that wasn’t as clear to me, obviously, or I wouldn’t have asked.

u/Hust91 [+6] (13 hours later)

I think he just means the several years that Zorian and Zach has studied in realtime.

u/distrofijus [+7] (13 hours later)

One mystery is unraveled (the Zach 2x mana - divine blessing), but conspiracy/background story got even more complex. According to QI the angels are really stingy with divine blessings - the forces behind putting Zach into looping (or opposing to it) are very heavyweight. I don't think it's a "compassion/compensation" due to loss from weeping from church/angels.

The whole interacting with QI avenu gives options of easily slipping "banish lich" trojan horse. Come to his location, ask him to trade knowledge. give him divine dagger, ask some questions, get some knowledge. give him another three items to choose from, all of them booby trapped - he might pick it up out of curiosity and they would easily gain a crown.

I've got some pet theories I'd like to share as well. The current main problem for Zorian is how to get out of the loop. And the funny thing is the author already explained how this happened ages ago. It's... souls bond. The Zach and Zorian will bound their souls, with Zach being as anchor. They already got soul fragments and machine does not care much about souls. So as soon as they get full key unlocked, Zorian should be able to piggy back on Zach to the real world. There's plenty of literature to research (including massive library he found hidden but never read up in Knyazov Dveri on his search for soul mages. Looking how rational everything is and heavy foreshadowing from author I'll be really surprised is the anything else will pop up as means to escape loop for Zorian. This level of trickery - huge approval from me. Nice done.

As for current invaders/QI dilemma, there is actual solution for the problem as well. Let me elaborate on this a bit more. The problem for Ulquaan Ibasa / necromancers is they live in very bad location. Nothern bare islands (cold/etc). Also the necromancers are not welcome due to well... undeads, etc. The solution Z&Z can come up with for the big shots of Ibasa - create a gate to Blantyrre (preferably the furthest away region) with QI and migrate everyone from there. Blantyrre is ruled by lizardman. Previous attempts to conquer it failed spectacularly. By flying the ship to Blantyrre, getting portal open with Arachna in the closest side, then finding the furthest away portal and getting password from there - Zorian needs to open gate for QI in there and offer: I'll open the gate for you, you transfer your operational gate to blantyrre instead from Cyoria and conquer that continent. No one gives a damn (besides some local lizardmen). Win-win-win (besides huge loss for lizardmen, but who cares about them ;) )

u/Banarok [+4] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (2 days later)

soul bonds are really bad though, as zorian says one of them will become a dominant partner (zach) while the other one becomes basically a copy of that parter.

so with a soul bond we wound end up with 2 Zachs but one being psychic and one not, it's not a optimal solution to anything.

if they get the key the could just both leave, as long as Zorian leave before Zach that is, since the gate won't stop operating while the operator is inside, and Zach is recognized as the operator.

u/distrofijus [+1] (2 days later)

There wasn't any recent news about soul bonds, so those a the lose facts I build this upon:

Both soul bonding and un-bonding techniques exist. The domination thing is a longer term issue - they would need to bond for a very short term. As who would dominate who - no clear answer. There wouldn't be any attempt to dominate since they already have enough trust. In the end even if Zach got more fighting instincts, Zorian is much more subtle. It's like woman vs man - man is the head, woman is the neck and she just makes sure the head is looking at the right direction.

The Machine would replace current Zach soul (with all extras, including bonded souls) because it is designed to do so. Zorian would need to do something about his original copy soul/body, since he would need to take over. Looking at the foreshadowing Zorian is preparing for this already. I didn't see a lot of low hanging fruit in this novel.

I'm pretty sure even with the key they won't be able to leave both. The machine was pretty strict about modifying/replacing the souls other than for operator. There might be no need for soul bonding, but looking at how the novel is built/designed from start, the exiting should make a LOT of sense. and for me - soul bond is the most RATIONAL choice.

u/therealflinchy [+1] (2 days later)

i thought even with the key, one person had already left so that was that, gate closed, wait for time out?

and they're just currently getting all the pieces as a gambit?

u/Banarok [+2] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (2 days later)

yea it is, but basically the way that only lets one person leave is barred, any other way they find that lead out should not have that restriction since it's not the way you're supposed to exit the gate.

u/therealflinchy [+1] (2 days later)

so they're simply hoping they find a second exit built in as a backup or something?

alright the story has been pretty solid so far so i'll just wait and see.

u/pleasedothenerdful [+1] (16 days later)

No, if they get all the pieces of the key, they get admin-level rights on the Gate, and can change the rules allowing only one person out.

u/therealflinchy [+1] (17 days later)

they're only assuming that though iirc, hasn't been clearly stated anywhere i can remember?

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (3 days later)

I don't think that there is a specific rule for "once the Controller has left, don't let a second Controller out." The rule is, "once the Controller has left, don't let anyone out." And the Guardian has explicitly stated that gathering the Key would override that rule.

So theoretically the Guardian should let them out once they have the Key - one of them, at least. Exactly what will happen depends on how the Gate handles itself in an inconsistent state. Complications include:

• Red Robe has already left. Which body did he land in, his own or Zach's?
• What happens to the Key after they use it? Will the one left behind be able to reuse it to un-bar the Gate a second time? Will he get reset and have to collect it again?
• What body could Zorian land in? The Guardian won't allow him to kick out the original copy of his own soul (essentially killing his pre-loop self).

u/kaukamieli [+1] (3 days later)

There are multiple rules. I'm pretty sure it goes something like this instead of having "second controller" anywhere there. Having a simple if for the controller leaving solves why it wouldn't let every controller leave, without makers having to had thought about multiple controllers.

"Keep the thing running until the controller is not inside anymore."

"If controller has not left, let the controller leave."

"If someone has the ADMIN keys, do what they say."

The thing can copy souls, so it could probably overwrite them as well. Thus I'd believe they go to their original bodies. Why wouldn't guardian allow him to enter his body? Guardian has had no problems with killing thousands of Zorians. Instead he should have problems killing the more advanced one.

It would be more dramatic if the keys would reset and Zach left with them and Zorian would have to do some dimension jumping with the prison not having time and strength to get all keys himself.

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (4 days later)

You need to reread chapter 55...

• The Gate does not overwrite souls as far as we've heard. The Guardian could kick out Zorian's original soul and anchor the loop soul to his body, but won't, because it's all about preventing leakage besides the Controller.
• Holding the Key grants additional authorisation, but is not the same as admin.

u/Crazy_Demon [+1] (a day later)

I like the soul bond theory! I haven’t heard that one before but it definitely feels like a nice twist that was foreshadowed very early on. Plus, it’s not even in the radar for Z & Z current ideas of how to escape so the reader would be even more surprised at the reveal.

u/MaybeEvilWizard [+6] (6 hours later)

I've been wondering if there's any possible technique that could be used to circumvent Mind Blank. Because at this point it's pretty much a showstopper for Zorian's effectiveness against all of his current major opponents.

Maybe if you can figure out where I mind should be (for example, by touching somebody) You could forcibly connect to their mind.

u/Nickoalas [+8] (6 hours later)

I think Mind Blank can be taken out by a strong enough dispell. We know it works for mind shielding, and it is a spell like any other.

In most situations dispelling mind blank wouldn't be your highest priority if you're close enough to touch them.

Edit: I keep forgetting he has soul sight now, so at least people can't sneak up on him with mind blank.

If he really needs to, I think a dispell should do the trick.

u/distrofijus [+2] (14 hours later)

Mind blank is "disconnect". You cannot influence something/someone who is not connected. So nope, there are no ways to influence/dispel it. There are obvious downsides to mind blank (harmful) - it has been explained already.

u/Nickoalas [+3] (a day later)

Mind blank is a disconnect from 'the great web', which means there is nothing for mind magic to target. A dispell is just regular ol magic. Mind blank won't protect you from being physically targeted by other magic.

In the early chapters, in the classroom when they discuss dispelling, Ilsa says "Disruptor spells are the simplest form of dispelling, and virtually every spell can be disrupted if you put enough power into the disruptor, but sometimes disrupting the spell can have worse consequences than letting it run its course. This is especially true for higher-order spells, which almost always react explosively to disruption because of the vast amount of mana that goes into their casting"

She also says shortly after when the students try to dispell the magically started fire "This is another weakness of disruptor spells. They break down mana constructs, but any fundamentally non-magical effects caused by the spell are unaffected..."

I am curious to know if Mind Blank is one of the exceptions that falls under 'virtually all', but I still think it should be able to dispelled if it's a magically maintained effect.

u/nobody103 [+8] (a day later)

Mind blank can be dispelled. Being connected to the 'great web' is a natural state of a mind in MoL-verse, hence why getting separated is so harmful for them in long term. It's just that dispelling a mind blank cast by someone like Quatach-Ichl is easier said than done. Especially in the middle of a chaotic battle.

u/Banarok [+1] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (2 days later)

sorry but a quick question about transformation potions, do you turn into a copy of the very beast you killed for parts or do you just turn into the same species?

wondered since i thought about Nochka and Kirelle playing together, and how Kirelle would probably love to be a kitten for a while since she loves anything magical, but killing kittens for parts seem cruel rather then just chopping up a cat that died of natural causes.

yea... rereading MoL makes thoughts go into weird places.

u/distrofijus [+1] (2 days later)

you are mixing up transformation potions with perception potions.

Transformation was explained like clothes over the soul. You just wear different clothes temporary. Nochka and any other shifter have two set of clothes over the soul so they can easily switch them. Transformation potion gives temporary clothing. So most likely soul clothes would match the breed of cat it was made from.

With perception potions you gain additional sense on your current clothes. We've seen some combinations from via grey hunter. Some of the potions were created from parts of grey hunter which were responsible for like magic perception, the others vibrations.

Killing kittens would involve is someone wanted to create transformation potion (soul clothes). Chopping them up would include if you'd want to get one of their senses (like hearing/vision) for any human.

Kirille wants to be dragon, who cares about kittens ;)

u/Banarok [+1] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (2 days later)

i don't mix them up, yes they are clothes for the soul, but those clothes are they in the image of the thing you killed or just the same species?

basically would you look like that particular cat you "killed" for parts or would you look like a generic cat.

and i'm sure kirelle would love to be a dragon, the police would not however love her being one and would cause unneeded attention something letting kirelle be a kitten would not, also letting a 9 year old be something that can kill you by sitting on you seems more then slightly reckless.

u/distrofijus [+1] (2 days later)

So most likely soul clothes would match the breed of cat it was made from.

I think I've shared my opinion already. The better answer could be provided by author. From what I've read/recall you provide body to alchemist/potionmaster and then they brew potions from it. The process was never defined as well as quantity. I would assume from one sample body more than one transformation potion would be created (but not sure if it really linked to the size). Also the grey part on this whole potion creating business is - most likely efficiency should be better if specimen is alive while potion is being created/extracted from it (if the current soul is present) - but that's just a educated guess for me.

What I'd like to see for amusement would be creating transformation potion from a big cat (e.g., panther) and giving it to both kirille/nochka.

I guess in a way it's a great way to create fan fiction. There is very little fanfiction about this - so I would suggest just try to write up some how nochka and kirille steals some crystalised mana from under the bed, buys cat transformation potions and cause trouble/fights cranium rats/whatever and are known as bad ass cat duo during one particular restart. Great way to amuse oneself especially if you are fan. Not many people are asking questions like this, author is for sure don't have time to side stories/fillers. I'm pretty sure he'd even give some pointers after you create a draft.

u/nobody103 [+1] (2 days later)

Into a copy of the very beast you killed. Born shifters turn into a personal animal form that is of the same species as their type but not corresponding to any specific animal.

u/distrofijus [+1] (2 days later)

I guess in a way it's the similar thing like breathing. You can consciously stop breathing and while someone can't force you to breath all you have to do is disrupt this person a LOT so he reverts to instincts (like knocking one out would work 100%).

It is a bit of catch 22 in this particular case. Since you cannot influence person via mind magic, the only other means are other mental inputs (like vision/smell/sound). It seems one would need to overwhelm some other senses - and I'd argue that technically this is not a dispelling. At best you can call it indirect dispelling.

Talking about QI - as a lich he has less senses and during his long life he's seen a lot of stuff so it would be really hard to impact him on battlefield or not.

u/None [+1] (21 hours later)

I wonder if QI's Mind Blank is a spell, or the unstructured magic that Zorian uses. I suspect it's the latter. I'm not sure how that plays with "dispel".

u/zconjugate [+2] (23 hours later)

At some point, Xvim dispelled Zorian's mind shield and attached him before Zorian had time to reform it, so it's possible to do.

u/CeruleanTresses [+22] (4 hours later)

For a millennia-old archmage QI kind of sounds like a laidback dude in his 20s, which broke my immersion a bit. His dialogue is almost indistinguishable from Zach's. Maybe he was deliberately affecting a Zach-like style to get a psychological edge, or something.

u/sparkc [+15] (4 hours later)

I agree. Subverting expectations by having QI be reasonable and charismatic was neat but the overtly casual manner was a little off putting. The millenian old lich rolling his eyes for example seemed...off.

u/I-want-pulao [+2] (20 hours later)

I have to agree. Xvim has a very different way of talking to everyone else (enough about the easily discouraged... was a beautiful line! Sounds so Xvim like) And I was disappointed to read QI sound so casual. So it's not like the author can't do it. Or maybe he is trying to go for a more hip QI instead.

u/clawclawbite [+6] (6 hours later)

They gave a divine artifact to a soul mage. I wonder if that dagger will still be in the orb next loop, and if not, there will be a very surprised lich with a mystery in his hands.

u/thrawnca [+20] Carbon-based biped (11 hours later)

• Even the Key pieces are reset by the loop.
• Zorian has destructively disassembled the dagger in previous iterations to study it.

u/LucidityWaver [+2] (8 hours later)

Hey, that's an interesting theory! If QI is 'attaching' the dagger to his soul in some way the loop decides to carry across, it could be an indicator to QI about the loop. I doubt, however, both that the loop 'reset' would work in a way that carries to dagger across for QI and that it would disappear from the orb if it did.

u/abcd_z [+9] (10 hours later)

If QI is 'attaching' the dagger to his soul in some way

Now why on earth would he bind an unknown divine item to his soul?

u/LucidityWaver [+2] (10 hours later)

That is indeed part of why I think it's unlikely. Though it would be a great way to store and retrieve items he values and wants to ensure he keeps hold of more than his body. And he probably has more protections on his soul than any real place he could send such an item. Except the place his soul resides. Though teleporting an item directly to your soul sounds more dangerous than creating a well built and secure soul based storage interface... Words I'd never thought I'd type or say.

u/countless_argonauts [+9] (22 hours later)

The loop indeed does not work that way. It creates the entire world, including new people with new souls copied from the originals, runs it for a month. Then it destroys everything, killing everyone except the marked souls.

So even if a QI instance does something permanent to his soul, the next instance will have a newly generated soul without the change.

u/LucidityWaver [+1] (a day later)

Yeah, this is my understanding too. I'm wary that I could be misunderstanding or attributing discussion to cannon, but I think this much has been established.

u/clawclawbite [+1] (20 hours later)

If it was possible, it might show there is a way to do the same thing with the artifacts, making it so they don't need to plan the speed run them all loop.

u/lostatnet [+5] (a day later)

I love this chapter, especially as it highlights the impact of morality. Zorian is dedicated towards saving Cyoria as a result of the sum of his actions. This is exemplified by his hesitance towards using mind magic or soul magic on innocents.

Contrasting this attitude with the Zorian that exists outside the time loop shows just how much he has changed. I can imagine the previous Zorian arranging for himself to leave the country, with a minimal effort to try to get his brother Fortov to safety (so he can say that he tried).

In regards to the incoming war, I'm interested in how Zorian will react when it starts. Though it is unlikely that the story will cover it, it has repeatedly hinted that the current peace cannot last. Zorian might not believe that war will come but his perceptive is skewed. He has lived his whole life in the "eye of the storm", a peaceful intermission of the Splinter Wars, & the time loop has artificially extended this peace from Zorian's perceptive.

u/None [+4] (2 days later)

[removed]

u/crazyfoxdemon [+2] (2 days later)

Not to mention his lack of world experience made him...... more..... callous is a good word.

u/Tserri [+3] (8 hours later)

So Zorian seems very interested in Divine Blessings. It appears that he won't be able to have one in the time loop but understanding them might be a key to understanding the isocahedron stabiliser. He just has to find people with divine blessing who would agree to share information. Alanic might be of good help to find them.

Many things are being set up for this particular loop. Hopefully their intereaction with QI will be fruitful since they can't afford to contact him like that in each loop: he is unpredictable and might attack them instead if they're not careful. They might do like Red Robe and side with QI in some of the loops. I feel like it would be the smartest way to gain intel and skills. I doubt Zach would be okay with that but they can still end the loop before the attack anyway if it bothers him too much.

u/feha92 [+8] (an hour later)

Why were they talking about the divine blessing sounding familiar? I seem to have forgotten this point, and the only one I can think of with high capacity but doesnt suffer in shaping is zach, who I dont remember mentioning meeting any divine beings?

u/Zorian42 [+46] (an hour later)

Ha. Well, it's not just that," Zach said. "The fact I was able to keep up with the academy curriculum at all, even before the time loop, pretty much shuts down the theory I'm just lucky. I'm magnitude 50 in terms of mana reserves, but I can shape my mana as if I was magnitude 25 at most. That's too… convenient to be natural.

source: chapter 62 ( https://www.fictionpress.com/s/2961893/62/Mother-of-Learning )

so it's not 'divine blessing sounding familiar', it's 'doubling mana reserves while keeping shaping potential' which is familiar.

u/Xtraordinaire [+9] Team Glimglam (an hour later)

Yup, thanks for the direct quote.

u/Xtraordinaire [+10] Team Glimglam (an hour later)

Because that's exactly what Zach's situation is like. His mana reserves are abnormal AND he did not lose control of his mana proportionately. It explains his situation perfectly. Combined with Zach being the loop controller (the loop clearly being of divine origin) and the theory of Zach being some (unknowing) champion of divine forces looks very strong.

u/FishyBinder [+1] (a day later)

Since the gods are gone it was probably done by an angel. The loop my have been started by them as well.

u/JiggyRobot [+7] (an hour later)

Zach hasn't met any divine beings (that we know of) but that is almost certainly what Zorian was thinking of. I'm leaning towards it being a blessing on one of Zach's ancestors that has since become a blood line.

u/thrawnca [+12] Carbon-based biped (11 hours later)

...Did QI have children before he un-died?

u/jaghataikhan [+3] Primarch of the White Scars (15 hours later)

That's... a very good angle that I hadn't considered previously!

u/TheTheos [+8] (5 hours later)

In the previous chapter I thought that Silverlake ratted them out - like it would make sense that 2 ageless beings have at the very least neutral standing between each other and do some communications. But now I think what if Alanic never quit being necromancer and is doing a goodie priest act to gain blessing and then to become a lich with higher mana reserve - just like his teacher QI.

u/SnowGN [+10] (13 hours later)

Seriously not a fan of how Q was written. He sounds and reads like a fellow teenager, even saying "oh come on" at one point.

Nobody desperately needs an editor who can help him give characters distinct voices. This did not sound like an ancient entity, just a fellow ordinary human raised in modern times.

u/serge_cell [+8] (14 hours later)

It can be retconed though that Q emulate contemporary young personality for undercover visits to outside world. Or just always. Q effectively transhuman and transhuman can not be predicted or explained by ordinary humans.

u/thrawnca [+16] Carbon-based biped (20 hours later)

He was fishing for info. Zorian knew he could expect deception. For QI to seem relatable and approachable is a sensible approach given his aims.

Remember what QI's soul looked like? Completely calm and smooth. Dude has basically perfect self control. His behavior was exactly what he decided to make it for a meeting with two precocious teenagers.

u/SnowGN [+2] (14 hours later)

The chapter dialogue would have been magnitudes better if this was true, and Zorian picked up on it, calls Q out, and then Q 'drops the mask.'

As it is, however, it simply comes off as bad writing.

u/Keshire [+5] (2 days later)

Zorian picked up on it, calls Q out, and then Q 'drops the mask.'

They are still in a populated restaurant, and he's still wants to make deals with them. Being all 'Lichy' probably wouldn't be conducive to all that.

u/SnowGN [+4] (2 days later)

His physical form doesn't matter. I mean dropping the mask in terms of dialogue. Changing his manner of speech.

u/serge_cell [+3] (15 hours later)

Zorian may realize it in the next chapter :)

u/I-want-pulao [+4] (20 hours later)

Yeah, as I said up top, Xvim has a very distinctive voice. So it's clear the author can do this when he likes! Maybe this chapter was bit rushed?

u/Keshire [+4] (2 days later)

This did not sound like an ancient entity, just a fellow ordinary human raised in modern times.

Perfect disguise really. If he's secretly interacting with the modern world he has to at least keep up appearances. I'm honestly surprised he couldn't also erase his accent completely.

u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (11 hours later)

Typos:

the waiter seems/the waiter seemed

limited yourself/limited yourselves

disagree with you here/disagree with you there

neither alarmed not/neither alarmed nor

I'm looked into/I've looked into

interacted with over the restart/interacted with over the restarts

long enough to wipe out/long enough to wipe us out

deal Ulquaan Ibasa/deal with Ulquaan Ibasa

into his the giant one/into the giant one

similar to ones/similar to the ones

man a culture/man of culture

the first time these/the first time since

satisfy out curiosity/satisfy our curiosity

feeling that would still end/feeling that I would still end

biased into/biased in

grinner/grinned

how it can be detected/how it could be detected

making sure he doesn't say/making sure he didn't say

u/asdkant [+3] (17 hours later)

ebook builds updated: https://github.com/asdkant/bookify-mol/releases/tag/c81

u/fdsfgs71 [+3] (a day later)

I hope that Zach and Zorian don't forget that they already have a rather foolproof way of defeating Quatach-Ichi and grabbing the crown.

u/MaddoScientisto [+2] (2 days later)

Right, just trigger the meeting again and then hand him the divine dagger but enchanted with the same spell that was on the coin, just like that

u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)

No, he inspected it first.

u/I-want-pulao [+1] (4 days later)

No, he accepted it first, then he started analysing it.

Zorian thought about it for a second before pulling out the mysterious dagger they had found in the imperial orb and handing it to Quatach-Ichl. Giving the ancient lich a divine artifact of unknown powers in exchange for this kind of information would be monumentally stupid in any other circumstances, but he really wanted the proper answer to his question and the dagger would be back in his hands in the next restart anyway.

Quatach-Ichl gingerly accepted the dagger and immediately started casting spells on it, scaring Zorian quite a bit. This was the first time Quatach-Ichl had performed any sort of magic after approaching them, and Zorian watched him like a hawk to make sure he didn't slip in something unsavory between all those divination spells he was casting at the dagger.

u/sambelulek [+5] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (6 hours later)

Quatorian's state of being:

Zorian didn't like to be ever vigilant, it's stressing him out. But, he's quite open to another heart to heart at further date. This, in part, was due to Zach expressing great interest for such occasion. His statement may suggest he was interested in the person himself, to Zorian's ire, especially since Zorian knew Zach's taste very well. But in the end, he kept things as they are, preventing himself jumping to conclusion. Thinking too much about possiblity of Quazach, he thought, will surely mess everything up.

u/-StrangeHorse [+3] (8 hours later)

Id ship Zorian and QI.

u/Hust91 [+2] (9 hours later)

Oh yeah, that's the good stuff.

Have been thirsting for this chapter like mad since the last one!

u/awoods187 [+2] (a day later)

How close is the third arc to being finished? I stopped after the 2nd arc and wanted to check in if it was close to being complete

u/The_Bloody_Nine [+6] (a day later)

The author has commented several times that the series are divided into 3 arcs, all of which were roughly equal in length. As the lengths of the arcs have been 26 (I) and 28 (II), and the third arc is now up to 27 chapters, it should be drawing to a close soon.

Although I personally believe the third arc to run on a bit longer than stated, mostly because there is a good deal of major goals left to adress before the story can wind down to a satisfying conclusion.

u/therealflinchy [+2] (2 days later)

yeah there's at least a few restarts, and this single restart has been chapters all by itself..

there's a heck of a lot left to wrap up, so i'd expect it to be more like mid 30's for arc 3?

u/awoods187 [+1] (2 days later)

thank you--exactly what i was looking for. More or less ~6 months till done given the state of the story

u/jsxt [+2] (a day later)

Best chapter I've read in a while!

I am dreading the inevitable part where QI figures out he's in the time loop and decides to break out.

u/kaukamieli [+1] (3 days later)

Meh, he doesn't have to break out. There aren't enough loops left anyway for it to matter to one of his age and he already exists on the other side anyway and there ZZ will not have extra lives.

u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)

So, the ancient lich is actually approachable, willing to deal, and takes an interest in divine magics.

I think we know how RR got himself a marker/got a temporary marker altered.

u/I-want-pulao [+1] (4 days later)

Once the lich sees the marker in action, wouldn't he be extremely curious to see where it came from? And the investigation of this marker would lead him to places where Red Robe doesn't want him to go. By extension, I can't see ZnZ allowing QI to look at their markers.

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