88 KiB
[WIP][RT] Worth the Candle, ch 79 (Rule Zero)
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Author: u/cthulhuraejepsen Fruit flies like a banana*
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URL: http://archiveofourown.org/works/11478249/chapters/31629219
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Score: 147
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Created: 2018-02-22T03:58:35
Post:
Comments:
u/None [+44] (38 minutes later)
[deleted]
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+49] Fruit flies like a banana (an hour later)
There's no way that this can possibly have Mother of Learning's longevity unless I slow way down or really pad things out. Some math, because I've been entering data into a spreadsheet for Patreon (and I like metrics):
Worth the Candle's average daily word count is ~1,800 words, with the average for February being 1,912 words per day. Worth the Candle has been running for 223 days. Mother of Learning has been running for 2319 days. If Worth the Candle ran for as long as Mother of Learning has currently run for, it would end with 4.1 million words. Or, in other words, what's written of this story now would only be a tenth of the entire thing.
Which I think I could do, but not without inserting a fair amount of what I would regard as filler.
(Also, fun note, at current speeds for both, Worth the Candle will pass the word count for Mother of Learning in about 120 days.)
u/scruiser [+15] CYOA (10 hours later)
Context: just finished binging through yesterday and am commenting for the first time now.
There's no way that this can possibly have Mother of Learning's longevity unless I slow way down or really pad things out.
In contrast to the top comments request, I think this is actually a good thing for the sake of the overall quality of the story. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the length while binging, but I feel like many web originals have strained under their own weight and even if the content was an even quality throughout, the overall themes of the story were stretched thin (I think Worm built up its themes continuously and evenly, while MoL, although fun, feels a little stretched). This story has avoided turning into a generic power fantasy and has maintained some motifs and themes well throughout, and it feels like it is building up to a definitive conclusion at least.
u/jaghataikhan [+6] Primarch of the White Scars (11 hours later)
Agreed on the need for pacing, but I actually feel that MoL is better paced than Worm/Pact/Twig/Ward.
For instance, Ward is 4 (nearly 5) arcs in, probably around 200-250k words in if I had to ballpark (i.e. about the length of arc 1 from MoL or half of WtC thus far,? Alternatively about 2 Harry Potter books haha), yet only as of the latest chapter does it feel as though the main plot may be introducing itself. Similarly, Pact's Toronto arc could definitely have been shortened without much adverse impact to the story, whereas Worm's time skip left a lot of critical team-building off-camera (IIRC Weaver had spent something like 50% more time with Golem and co than with the undersiders after that).
Don't get me wrong, I've been reading Wildbow's stuff live since 2012, but brevity is not his strong suit haha.
Each of the authors have their strengths, and I enjoy reading all of their works live!
u/Ace_Kuper [+7] (3 hours later)
Sorry, since i spotted you and this "rant" would be as much directed at you as at other readers, i will post it as a reply. I would highly appreciate if other people agreed\disagreed with me and wrote their responses as to why. You yourself don't even need to respond or confirm anything, i partially don't won't it to affect story in any way. Since it's so rare that you can direct your thought at the author, i hope this at least can be entertaining or useful to you.
I will start with things i liked, them being shorter in descriptions is not them being any less great. I honestly very much like characters and character interaction in this story, world initially was very intriguing and this chapter kinda fixes problems i started to have with it as the "narrative" became a bigger part in the story. Character thought and descriptions are pretty detailed and it's a fun read of Junipers thought and justifications to himself.
Now a list of somewhat personal gripes that i had with the story, but it seems this chapter implies that they can be fixed. Maybe others share this opinions or think they have no ground to stand on. I will start with some that i feel are more visible and maybe relatable to by other readers and will end with more personal gripes. This list might be just me being confused or reading to deep\not deep enough into things.
I brought up D&D as being a limiter in ways some chapters ago. This is in relation to people and companions of Aerb. They fell into vendor, companion, enemy categories to easily and there was no nuance to them. It's kinda fixed by the bonemage interactions, but this is what i meant by nuance
Conflict of interest or unwilling allies. People can form temporary alliances, meet each other later of have conflicting goals without going into murder or becoming a party member down the line. It makes the world less of a D&D and more of a real thing. People can be temporary companions just based on a mutual goal, without getting murdered or "diapered" from the story. They don't even need to have a lasting effect, but it would show that it's actual living beings Juniper is interacting with.
This was some time ago, but it's relevant in other form even now. Real world segment that are inserted into the story aren't always "true" or come as a sign of things might occur. By not always true i mean, they feel more like Juniper remembering something similar or relevant happening, not like a universal truth of Aerb mechanics and systems.
My example of real world segments not really being "narrative truth" is this. Party separation - this was not really a thing as Juniper started, cause pretty separated from Amaryllis when he was dying in the sewers. They were pretty separated from her again when she was captured. Unless "party separation" kicks in as you have more than 1 companion, it's not really a narrative thing to punish you for doing stuff on your own. People actually being people and not just party members, helps the world to feel alive.
In regards to Arthur. It feels like Juniper had\has an unhealthy obsession with the guy. In chapter 76 real world segment it honestly felt like Juniper was actually in love with the guy and in denial about his own sexual orientation, or was in serious obsession that went to not so good places. "Arthur was the best" is repeated in the span of two paragraph and that whole segment felt like Juniper almost deifying the man.
Real world discussion about, there not being enough "interpersonal drama" doesn't really feel like there will be more of it as narrative force. Cause in reality most of the later story was nothing but personal drama. This is more to readers, i don't think we should treat real world segments as a sign of future developments or narrative cause of said developments.
Last couple of chapters and even to an extent with this one i started to think that Juniper is an asshole and still treats his companions as being not real or living. I thought death of Solace would affect him or change that view, but boy was he ready to ditch everything for Arthur or still treat them as numbers for loyalty points. Thankfully Grak kinda called him out on that, but it doesn't feel like he stopped doing that.
Narrative talk and double and triple questioning everyone and everything was starting to be my most disliked thing, cause i was caring less and less and it slowed thing to a crawl for me. Stuff like "i knew, that she knew and she knew that i knew" or "i was going to do this, but what if this was going to do that" is a great show of characters thing before acting, but it started to blur together for me and i think there was more time spent on Juniper pondering over things than actually doing them or talking to people. "Just talk" is a part of the problem for me. He often thinks to himself "i better ask" "but what if" "i'm a bad person for doing this", but he often still does the thing regardless or spends multiple chapters pondering over the same stuff. It's like me going in circles in this "rant" and over explaining things to myself with disregard for others.
Juniper in the last chapters especially after Grak called him out felt like he was regressing with his mental state instead of progressing. Like he says multiple times from the start of the series "i better not treat loyalty as gaming the system" , treat people as real people and still doesn't at the end of the day. He goes into "game better not screw me with achievement, oh it made fun with achievement, oh you game" loop they to much, it kinda feels pointless to me. Him going and showing emotion to DM this chapter was great. At other times it just feel like he (and his real world friends) go onto most nothing first year at college studying psychology tangents ever, only to come of as shallow, pretensions kids that talk about concepts and actually never talk or interact with real people. In recent chapters it felt like Juniper talked at people, not too them and his fuck the deer, give me Arthur, give me Tiff talk didn't help. He goes into "depth" about philosophy, human interaction and "being shut from the world", but boy does he act like an asshole to people lately. If we didn't have access to his inner thought, i would think he is a self righteous douchebag a lot of the time.
Like holly hell that "I want Tiff." was one of the scummiest things Juniper ever said. He ponders over Fenn having someone she likes more than him, but as soon as she is not near him he goes and treats her as an NPC at best. Also, how many times he said to himself that Arthur is not the same one he knew? How many times it was said that Arhur had a family, multiple lovers and kids? What makes him think or gives him right to create living person that would care about him or Arthur in any way, why would Arhur after God knows many years would care about her. Like i would buy it if it was actual teenagers talking about their crush of few years back, but even when just meet new people dude. This is what i'm talking about with the whole "pretensions, shallow philosophy" Juniper is on the right track to be worse than DM with his Hells, cause this justification is "i wanna, give me" levels at best. You are not going to sop with Tiff or thinking you know better what overs want if you get this. His obsession with level ups was lower than his obsession with Arthur. Was Arthur his number 1, cause it feels like it?
Narrative and self questioning, was kinda wearing on me. I'm glad that his chapter kinda dresses that.
All in all it feel like a good direction is ahead of us with this chapter and i hope some of the problems i had will be solved, or less relevant. Man was i not digging the last few chapters for some reason. I probably should explain myself better next time or condense my thought, that's why i ask for feedback from others who are reading this.
u/Makin- [+9] homestuck ratfic, you can do it (7 hours later)
They fell into vendor, companion, enemy categories
This I actually agree with you about. I'm not sure it would make the story better if the cast got bloated, though. I'll defer to the author here. It feels wrong to me but that's just a feeling.
This was some time ago, but it's relevant in other form even now. Real world segment that are inserted into the story aren't always "true" or come as a sign of things might occur. By not always true i mean, they feel more like Juniper remembering something similar or relevant happening, not like a universal truth of Aerb mechanics and systems.
Did they pretend to be? Almost always they seem to be either narrative justifications (the DM often uses Joon's style) or character development. Mechanics almost never apply. If there is a way to munchkin things that Joon already knows, it never works, or it only partially works.
Regarding 5, I think you have to have lost someone before you can understand what Joon feels. It feels realistic to me, anyway, and I'm sure it's not meant to be healthy in the first place.
Regarding 9, he's regressing because he's desperate for that number. Remember it already fucked them over when Grak was compromised and they had no way to know. Also, the theme of the arc seems to be inter-personal dynamics (addressing your 6), if I'm reading the author right. I'm sure Joon is actually meant to be an asshole but someone will open his eyes eventually. And in fact, Grak addressed most of the stuff you're saying already.
Regarding 10, I'm pretty sure he didn't mean "I want a Tiff that would date me", having Fenn. They had pretty much broken up, so I assume they'd stay friends. He just wants a way for Tiff to not have to choose between Joon and Arthur. Or that was my read anyway. Not sure how it would work in practice, though...? You may have a point there.
I feel like 3 or 4 of your points are about narrative talk/narrative munchkining sucking, which I agree with (and mentioned it last chapter) but this chapter addresses that pretty well. You've said that yourself so /shrug.
Also, yikes, this reply got pretty long. Thank you for the opportunity to argue a little.
u/Ace_Kuper [+3] (8 hours later)
It's not long. Mine was al other the place and pretty long itself. The whole point of it is to provide different views or an opportunity for people to disagree\agree.
Real world was regarded as truth by comments here. It also felt kinda strange how it was implemented at times. That "party separation" and "interpersonal problems" stood out the most.
I don't know the line is:
"I want Tiff. Two of her, one for him, one for me" yeah that's a shitty thing to ask, i don't understand why he thinks Arthur after so many years would care.
"And Fenn?" is asked by DM "I want Fenn too, god damn you, you fucking made her just for me" good job at treating her as a human Juniper. Like the loyalty rising cause he is essentially saying what she and others want to hear was pissing me off.
I'm sure Joon is actually meant to be an asshole but someone will open his eyes eventually.
That's what i thought i thought this journey was slowly changing him. That Solace's death had unhinged him a bit and shown that "This is real, they are people". But the childish attitudes of "i can't understand the dear therefore it can kinda die, but it's not my fault" and the whole "loyalty" thing kinda got to me.
I think you have to have lost someone before you can understand what Joon feels
I kinda understand that, but this is a very bad place to be and it seems to me like he went from "Depression" to maniacal obsession and knowing what is best for others. I don't want to bring this up, but time actually heals. I didn't have friends die cause of an accident, but i had friends betray me, it hurts but you move on. The closes i had to that is close family dying, but it was long process cause it was illness related in both cases. You are broken when it happens and i wan't say you stop blaming yourself, but over time it either passes or you break.
It seems Juniper already was over breaking point and see him swing back into it, kinda feels shitty. Cause every bit of inner struggle he has of "I treated Tiff and guys so badly" is worse cause he is doing the same thing to his party and Fenn, only this time it seems he can't throw away the feeling of them not being real so it's an excuse.
This chapter and parts of previous one seem to address the problems i had. But the Arthur flashback in 76 was just really deifying the guy and it kinda felt out of nowhere in it's intensity.
u/nytelios [+4] (21 hours later)
That's quite the rant. You've mentioned some of these in the past and I still agree your first two points, though I also feel you're obsessing over details or personal interpretations of why Juniper acts the way he does, with an overarching tone of "I don't think/want Juniper to think this way."
Regarding Arthur, I think you're missing some context. It's not deification. "So-and-so is the best" is a very common English phrase. From Joon's descriptions, Arthur seemed to be an all-around swell guy and the truest of BFFs. And when you consider that Arthur is dead and that we often view the dead and past through rose-colored glasses, there's nothing unusual in Joon glorifying Arthur's memory.
u/Ace_Kuper [+1] (22 hours later)
Yeah, "i don't want him to be this way or is it just me seeing him like this" - is probably true. " Arthur seemed to be an all-around swell guy and the truest of BFFs" i think maybe DM alluded to something
He spent most of his life on Aerb, he’s not going to be how you remembered him -- you know that, that’s not news -- but the Arthur that came to Aerb wasn’t just Arthur as you remembered him. He’s the real deal, Arthur as he actually existed
, but i think Juniper is heavily obsessed with him non the less.
I actually was hit with a sudden revelation a couple of hours ago. I probably can pinpoint why i feel like Juniper is regressing in character development or what my problem with the "narrative" or story itself was as more chapters came by. It's such an obvious and stupid thing to miss. I was really concentrated on details and not missing context that i never question what did or didn't Juniper and party accomplished or tried to do.
I will wait posting it till the next chapter, cause maybe it will change my mind. But i really think i grasped why i'am so harsh on Juniper and what i feel is lacking in his character and maybe lacking in the story for me. It also a very short realization and not multitude of bullet points or paragraphs.
You are right, me obsessing over details and trying to understand Joon made me unable to see the forest for the trees.
u/nytelios [+3] (22 hours later)
He's heavily obsessed, inasmuch as people can be obsessed with a major figure in their life disappearing. That DM quote doesn't mean Joon's memory of Arthur was faulty; he's pointing out that Arthur will have changed from the teenage Arthur Joon knew- a result of spending decades on Aerb.
Looking forward to reading about that eureka moment!
u/LordGoldenroot [+3] (23 hours later)
I doubt many people would be the same after about 40 years of the world literally out to get you.
u/Ace_Kuper [+2] (23 hours later)
Was it a 40 plus years or hundreds if not thousand of years?
Oh, i found this in the first chapter, cause i didn't remember the time frame exactly.
Amaryllis let out a breath. “That was five hundred years ago. Every heir of either brother since then has been styled as Prince or Princess
Yeah, it is highly unlikely for him to remotely care about Tiff choosing Juiper over him after so many years or any stuff that happened on Earth. Also, people on Aerb probably have some magical reason to even be functioning or remembering stuff that was 500 years ago. By people i mean "humans", cause others would probably have the justification of being a fantasy race.
u/Ace_Kuper [+1] (23 hours later)
he's pointing out that Arthur will have changed from the teenage Arthur Joon knew- a result of spending decades on Aerb.
I would agree with you, only this kinda points to Joon's memories not being how Arthur actually was.
but the Arthur that came to Aerb wasn’t just Arthur as you remembered him. He’s the real deal, Arthur as he actually existed
u/awesomeideas [+3] Dai stiho, cousin. (a day later)
I think that's saying that Arthur's not just some person extrapolated from Juniper's memories.
u/Ace_Kuper [+1] (a day later)
This does seem plausible. But why is DM saying "but the Arthur that came to Aerb wasn’t just Arthur as you remembered him" Juniper would love Arthur being real and not his memory construct, why that "but"? If it is as you say, that makes me even more disturbed by the Junipers "Give me Tiff and him Tiff comment" that's such a bad thing to ask.
u/nytelios [+1] (5 days later)
I didn't reply before because I really think you're looking too hard for evidence that's not there. Anyhow, I've been doing a slow re-read and got to an adjudicating quote from c42:
Looking back, I have to wonder how much of Reimer being a dick to me was just him trying to process the grief in his own way, in the same way that I started to lash out at pretty much everyone around me for every little slight, or anything that could possibly be interpreted as disrespect to Arthur. I was his best friend, and he was mine, that was how I saw myself after his death, and I applied as much paint to our relationship as possible, until it was sometimes hard to remember that I’d been anything but a perfect friend.
u/Ace_Kuper [+1] (6 days later)
I really think you're looking too hard for evidence that's not there
Yeah, in fact after rereading some stuff i found out that evidence to things were right on the surface and me trying to connect stuff din't work because i was looking too deep.
I didn't reply before because I really think you're looking too hard for evidence that's not there.
You mean "thought" not that you still think that or am i wrong.
Cause this
I was his best friend, and he was mine, that was how I saw myself after his death, and I applied as much paint to our relationship as possible, until it was sometimes hard to remember that I’d been anything but a perfect friend.
So it was said that real Arthur and their relationship is not how Joon remembers him, even before the DM implied it. Even if he was guy was here for 40+ years and this 40+ can turn into 500+, cause it was 500 years that he was last heard of.
u/nytelios [+1] (6 days later)
It's still 'think'. Your point was that Joon had an unhealthy obsession with, had homoerotic feelings for, and/or deified Arthur. This quote shows he was already aware that he emphasized the best aspects of their friendship: so no, it's not deification or unusual obsession. It's just rosy retrospection.
So it was said that real Arthur and their relationship is not how Joon remembers him, even before the DM implied it.
What's your point? Joon remembers the old, Earth, "real" Arthur fine, if glorified a bit. At least once or twice, he thought about how Arthur might have changed on Aerb, so the DM didn't say anything surprising.
u/Ace_Kuper [+1] (7 days later)
Admitting you have a problem is still a problem. I kinda went hard on the specifics in the next chapters thread. If you check it out it would help. I very much appreciate the points you bring up and my view point is in no way the universal truth or fact.
u/nytelios [+1] (7 days later)
Yeah, but what do you define a "problem" as? People who lose very close loved ones deal with extreme grief. That's a problem that has so many angles and no "correct" solution.
I read your posts in the new thread and left a mention. I don't want to belabor the points as I read them as opinion. I do think you have a tendency to couch your viewpoint in very strong terms - like "this is just wrong" rather than "I think X or I feel Y".
u/rlxmx [+3] (2 days later)
I don't want to bring this up, but time actually heals. I didn't have friends die cause of an accident, but i had friends betray me, it hurts but you move on. The closes i had to that is close family dying, but it was long process cause it was illness related in both cases. You are broken when it happens and i wan't say you stop blaming yourself, but over time it either passes or you break.
To start with, I'm so sorry about your loss, even though it was so long ago. Death sucks, no matter what form it comes in.
I'm going to have to dispute your overall point, however.
A sudden, traumatic death early in your life can be extremely derailing. The younger or less emotionally prepared you are for it, the worse the effects. It's been less than 5 years since Arthur died (I can't remember, but probably actually less than a year or two when the story starts, which would have been short on the grieving time scale regardless).
It's not so much "you get over it or you break." It's more, you live life, but you're broken somewhere inside, sometimes in non-obvious ways, sometimes for years and decades, and it colors your whole life, your emotional world, and your choices.
Source: My childhood best friend was murdered when I was 8. I'm still not over it, and the wrecking ball it took to my psyche. It took well over a decade before I even started making progress on the things that were broken. In the meantime, I got by. I'm a lot better now. But it really, really eff'ed up my early adult life.
Here's how I see it:
If Joon is obsessing over Arthur and getting him back, I'm guessing that it has less to to with Arthur, than with getting back the Joon who existed pre-Arthur's-death. It probably feels like reversing Arthur's death can fix what's broken in Joon and make him happy again. It's the magical thread that can pull the broken part of Joon that is lost out in the void back into his life again, returning all the missing feeling and meaning.
The real problem isn't Arthur being dead, though. The real problem is that Joon can't (or simply hasn't yet) figured out how to successfully exit out of and dispel the trauma he experienced due to Arthur's death.
Not everyone suffers this kind of trauma with a sudden death (thankfully!), but definitely some people do, and it seems pretty obvious that Joon underwent some major emotional and behavioral changes that strongly suggest trauma to me.
Before, Joon felt powerless to do anything about the symptoms he was feeling (which I'm arguing are coming from the trauma Joon incurred in the event as much as the lingering grief of Arthur's death, but that probably feel to Joon like they were flowing directly from the fact of Arthur's death). Because it was so sudden and threw his world so far out of whack all at once, he didn't manage to create a powerful story about what happened and where it leaves him that could have kept him from being traumatized by the situation. Instead, the situation just overwhelmed him, and he broke a few things inside that aren't healing up, because he never did create the powerful personal story about the event that he needed to process the trauma successfully.
Since then, he's just experiencing brokenness that doesn't fix itself and he doesn't know what to do.
Now, he feels like he has a roadmap that will take him out of the trauma. Back on Earth, he had no roadmap at all, just a box of trauma he was living in that was derailing his life. Now he has the possible hope to exit the event successfully, restoring his narrative of self and his sense of power over his own destiny — by saving Arthur and making the story end right.
This isn't the usual recommended way of dealing with trauma, or of reprocessing an event in a way that allows it to finally heal. Most people don't get to resurrect the dead as a way of finally healing.
u/Ace_Kuper [+0] (2 days later)
I pretty much agree with you and i found out why it exactly it was bothering me after sleeping on it. I 'm going to elaborate on it in the comments to the next chapter, cause i already wrote a lot about it here and i want to see if someone else resonates with the thing i'm going to bring up.
Of course everyone processes that differently and it still being with you is true. My problem is it was over 500 years fro Arthur, this is not ending in a good way if it's going to be realistic. Also, he is reacting the way he is, because he kinda was obsessed with Arthur to begin with.
As you said the younger or less emotionally prepared you are the worse it is. I was 17 at the time and i was not in a good place for a couple of years.
Now he has the possible hope to exit the event successfully, restoring his narrative of self and his sense of power over his own destiny — by saving Arthur and making the story end right.
The trick is even if he finds Arthur that is a very unhealthy solution and in fact i think it will be only worse for Joon in the long run. Cause people die and you can resurrect\save them all you want, but as you said it's not really about Arthur it's a trauma and it doesn't solve itself if you act like an asshole to current people in your life, that care a lot about you.
u/rlxmx [+3] (2 days later)
Yeah, it's not a particularly healthy solution, but for some reason fantasy fiction tends to lean that direction (resurrecting characters as a solution for dealing with the emotional aftermath of their death).
As for whether finding Arthur would solve anything, it's really hard to say. My understanding of trauma is based heavily on Peter Levine's books, especially Waking the Tiger. I'm coming from the angle that solving trauma is mostly about finding an effective exit for the endless self defeating loop of emergency response (ie fight, flight, freeze, collapse).
Based on Levine's work, it's as much a nervous system problem (physical) as an idea problem (mental). You get overwhelmed by a situation that is beyond your power to cope with, so you get stuck in emergency response mode on some level. Even though you survived the situation itself, you don't have a proper cue that the situation is actually over, so you don't "come down."
If Joon can take proactive action to restore his broken narrative about life (by saving Arthur), he may actually defuse much or all of the lingering trauma (in this narrow sense) simply by feeling like he has taken effective action to resolve the crisis he's still, on some level, physically revved up to fight (in game terms, removing his affliction of powerlessness).
That's a big "if" there, still — there are no guarantees that saving Arthur will unlock anything.
And, as you've pointed out, this doesn't make him mentally healthy precisely. He'll have to cope with the changes in Arthur from the 40 years or so that Arthur was on Aerb without him (I'm assuming/hoping that the lost king is unconscious all this time — kind of like the medieval Arthur legends, so not 500 years old).
But all this is the work of grieving and personal growth, in my mind, not so much the work of dispersing trauma. I would argue that Joon hasn't been doing that grief work mostly because the grief and the trauma are bound up together, and it's hard to deal with grief when it's tied up with trauma.
Your mileage may vary, of course. Trauma is still a wild west right now, and lots of people have ideas about what it is, what it means, and how it can (or if it can) be effectively solved. I've had a lot of good luck with Levine and his theories, so I tend to lean on them. A big part of the aforementioned "doing much better now" in my own life.
u/Ace_Kuper [+1] (2 days later)
Well, mine wasn't a trauma per say. But i dealt with it by having to deal with the same thing again (having to care for somebody who was essentially dying). Discovering that friends are not friends and them not really caring happens. So i realized i can enjoy life or talk with people i like or have similar interests with. I don't need a life time, once only friendship., i can be just nice to people and they be nice back, if not no big deal. There so much amazing stuff to enjoy, i can't be down or wounded all the time.
u/rlxmx [+2] (3 days later)
It sounds like you've developed strength and depth over the course of your life and its difficulties.
I wish you the best of luck. It sounds like you've built the strength you need to deal with life when the luck doesn't come through.
u/Ace_Kuper [+1] (3 days later)
Thanks. I hope you will also enjoy yours and have people to care about and that care about you.
Related to the actual story and start of this discussion. You brought up good points in our discussion points and in a twist of irony i discovered even more stuff that bothers me about Juniper and doesn't make sense. My small discovery and next "rant" might have just grown. I wanted to check something out and saw something that i missed or misremembered in the summary that you can read before the first chapter.
u/scruiser [+7] CYOA (11 hours later)
Conflict of interest or unwilling allies.
I think this would make the story interesting... right now, the companions all have the loyalty meter so there is less tension about their relationships. Some temporary partners or allies, like Solace, would keep things interesting in this regard, but from an in-universe perspective, why should they get less reliable non-companion teammates when they can be assured of the loyalty of their fellow companions.
In regards to Arthur. It feels like Juniper had\has an unhealthy obsession with the guy.
I had a best friend in elementary school and a best friend in middle school, Juniper's obsession feels pretty plausible/realistic to me. Maybe a little unhealthy, but not unrealistic, and I am sure if he find Arthur the story will address the unhealthy part of it.
If we didn't have access to his inner thought, i would think he is a self righteous douchebag a lot of the time.
It feels like the author is somewhat intentionally deconstructing the typical behavior of SI protagonists and LitRPG protagonists, so hopefully other characters will continue to call Juniper out and remind the reader of this.
u/Ace_Kuper [+2] (11 hours later)
It's plausible to have a friend. I think it's just real Arthur and Arthur in his memories\head a totally different people. it feel like it's guilt made him feel like Arthur was what he is to people of Aerb almost ad deity, like he can do now wrong. It's the part that starts with "Arthur was the best." in chapter 76 that made me feel like, okay are you in love with Arthur or just heavily obsessed, cause at this point you kinda care more about him when current\previous girlfriend.
why should they get less reliable non-companion teammates when they can be assured of the loyalty of their fellow companions
Cause in reality they are not omnipotent and should have people that want the same things they want or have mutual goals with someone without killing them in the process. Like with White tower incident, they didn't actually kill the guy, but only because he was more powerful when them. The loyalty narrative aspect was kinda my problem, cause it made me feel like world outside of their party didn't exist and people have no ambitions or goals. Like are they gonna butcher the whole royal family and every single god over time, or maybe "just talk" is an option?
hopefully other characters will continue to call Juniper out and remind the reader of this
Yeah i'm with you. It just felt like Juniper talks\thinks a lot on how to be better to people, but totally forgets about it as soon as they are out of sight. Like the whole loyalty thing he brings up constantly, when says he learned something new about the person and how to treat them better, only to fall back to trying to grind loyalty with disregard to people. With his "level up" obsession it was explained, by literally being an obsession. This is kinda going in circles or making excuses to himself.
Like he wonders who the guy is that Fenn cares about, but the second he is left alone goes to "Give me Tiff". Fenn might have problems cause she wondered alone for 10 years, boy is she immature - Let me not care for a dying companion and want Arthur above all else the second i have free time. Like he has this great, immersive, relatable, emotional and logical dialog with himself, seemingly to grow as a person when plunges deeper into learning nothing.
I'm just not sure if he is just one of the people that say that they changed, but in reality they don't, he is not supposed to be seen as such and it's just me being mistaken, he is just unstable even tho he thinks he is fine. Like for every issues and analysis he did on others, boy does he have at least twice a much problems.
u/None [+1] (22 hours later)
I'm glad you're not padding things out. I think a lot of webfiction suffers when the world's been fully fleshed out and the characters fully developed but they keep on going anyways, and they get really dull. Stories need endings.
u/therealflinchy [+1] (a day later)
longevity, eh. you release a chapter the length of a MoL chapter far more frequently. I'm not going to complain...
u/derefr [+1] (a day later)
but not without inserting a fair amount of what I would regard as filler.
Definitely don't do that during the story... but maybe do it after. People love omake.
u/NoYouTryAnother [+1] (2 days later)
Late replying, but thanks so much for your response. I absolutely adore Worth the Candle and everytime a new post goes up is a little unearned joy. I got into reading it somewhat late (was scared away by the Portal Fantasy tag) and since have extolled to people how here is a story that justifies that premise, which subverts and plays variations on expectations in the best ways. Worth the Candle wouldn't be what it is if it stopped doing that and went for length, and whether it were to end a week from now or 2 years from now I would still consider it a gem, so I hope I didn't come across as suggesting length matters. I just want it never to end.
u/WalterTFD [+46] (15 hours later)
Anyone else feel like the party are gonna be salty as hell with Joon?
June "Hi guys, I met the DM, so I figured I'd punch him a bunch of times."
Amaryllis: "How'd he take that?"
Joon: "Not well. Then I swore at him a bunch, it was super cathartic."
Grak: "You assaulted and insulted the being who created us and everything we've ever known?"
June: "Yeah. I also called him evil and said he was bad at world building."
Null Pointer Exception: "I'm new at this, but that seems super stupid to me."
June: "It's cool. He gave me three wishes and I used them to try and make you guys not be in love with me."
All: "Well, that worked."
u/C_Densem [+36] LessWrong (than usual) (16 hours later)
Joon: "Well yay. Who wants a hot dog?"
u/ianstlawrence [+3] (2 days later)
Thumbs up to this comment. Haahahaha
u/None [+28] (an hour later)
Nice. This chapter actually restores some tension that was previously lost for me. Knowing* that there are stakes, that there can be a good ending, that the world is real (or at least its people are real), and that the DM only nudges things slightly sometimes rather than manipulating everything, makes a big difference.
* Well, ok, the DM could be lying about everything. But I think he's probably mostly telling the truth because, well, why bother lying?
u/DCarrier [+15] (4 hours later)
There's another layer. Sure the DM in-universe might be willing to give him the bad end and torture him for eternity along with a trillion other people, but would the author do that?
Although for a while I was a little scared that the author might not be intending for Juniper to become god and save everyone. Good to know we don't have that problem.
u/derefr [+15] (21 hours later)
Hypothesis: the DM is like GlaDOS, in the sense that they're trying to find a "successful candidate" by putting various people (who may or may not all be clones of the same person) through an identical set of trials until one makes it through.
Except, where GlaDOS just has to clean bodies out of her otherwise-self-maintaining test chambers in order to ensure cross-test replicability, the DM can't just throw a new Juniper into the existing Aerb after the previous one failed and expect test conditions to be the same.
So, if my hunch is right, on Juniper's death, the DM would reset the entirety of the Aerb simulation back the same initial position that this Juniper entered at, and then introduce a slightly-altered new Juniper (probably by some algorithm that analyzes the data collected during this one's life, and outputs tweaks to soul weights.) Repeat until the set of Juniper-tweaks is found that results in ascension.
That's why the DM needs permission to collect data; and that's why it so carefully distracted from the question of what happens when Juniper dies by offering something of emotional value instead—something to occupy Juniper's mind and drag it away from analytical thoughts. (The DM knew this would work, because it's aware of Juniper's soul composition on a low level, probably being an agent-personality that is part of the same system generating the Juniper soul-tweak series.)
As for why? Well, one hypothesis: maybe Earth doesn't even exist, and there was never a "Juniper" until this AI system attempted to begin synthesizing one from whole cloth. It has found, in its hill-climbing so far, that a Juniper that thinks the world is something he came up with will frame problems more as "game system design" problems, and thus succeed where other Junipers fail. Likewise, a Juniper who thinks he had a friend named Arthur, who was his friend on Earth who was taken from him, and his predecessor on Aerb who he may still reunite with, will be more motivated to succeed than one who has no such driving force.
(Where does Aerb come from, then? Well, maybe Aerb is what's real; this machine is on Aerb; and the goal of its programmer is to create a new god to help Aerb. Juniper is Aerb's attempt at a Friendly AI, stuck in a "box" that it will only break out of—and into the real Aerb—when it has succeeded at every test put before it.)
u/Izeinwinter [+6] (3 days later)
... Or alternatively, the DM is working his way through the entire DnD group. Arthur first, because Arthur was the most conventionally heroic personality. This is what killed Arthur - he did not actually die, he got sideloaded. Then when Arthur does not manage to fix the world, in Joon goes. If he fails, it is time for the adventures of Tiff, Leader of The Revolution. .. Oh. fuck me, never mind their personalities, it could be in alphabetical order.
u/t3tsubo [+11] (11 hours later)
But that's a criticism of all fiction, not just meta MC-is-in-a-simulation fiction. The author/plot-armor layer is pretty much a given no matter the setting.
u/Noumero [+5] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (9 hours later)
why bother lying?
Any number of reasons. He already demonstrated/claimed to have an ability to "glance at possible futures", and precogs work in mysterious ways. As to what he would be trying to accomplish, who knows? He claims he is setting things up mostly for entertainment, but he declined to answer the direct question about "the point".
He probably (probably) didn't lie about literally everything, but I fully expect there to be one or two well-calculated falsehoods or misdirections.
u/therealflinchy [+3] (a day later)
Yeah, it's.. excellent writing having the story convince us that the meta-layer would let the MC die
but knowing the meta-meta layer in the author wouldn't allow that lol
u/Laborbuch [+25] (2 hours later)
The number of times I’ve played a tabletop RPG can be counted on one hand and you’d still have fingers left, as such my insights into rules and laws governing role playing games of that kind are basically baseless, but the title of the chapter, Rule Zero, evokes three particular rules for me:
- “The DM is always right.” As in, rules can be bent and broken by the DM as they deem fit in order to facilitate a good game experience.
- “Have fun.” A game is made to be enjoyed by the players; everything else is malleable.
- “Zeroth Law of Robotics: A robot may not harm humanity, or, by inaction, allow humanity to come to harm.” To translate this into the Worth the Candle setting, “The generation of worlds and persons as a whole must overall improve the situation of the worlds and persons in question.” In other words, the DM can generate as many people and worlds as they want, as long as the generation of them facilitates an improvement to the ‘real world’ at large, or the sum of constructs. That way, even if Aerb was generated ex nihilo with actual people inhabiting it and in the crapsack way it runs, it would still be deemed moral with the addition of Joon and his desire to improve the state of the people of Aerb and the world at large.
If I make the allowance that the creation of worlds by the DM allows a wider toolset than the post-fact interaction (that is, an overarching rule that the internal rules of a setting must be adhered to after initialising the world), then the whole nudging by the DM as admitted by same makes sense; they aren’t allowed to throw random stuff around, at least not if it isn’t following the internal rules of the setting.
Though of course that might simply be a self-imposed restriction of the DM rather than an overall rule the DM is working under.
Thank you, /u/cthulhuraejepsen, for your evocative work.
u/Noumero [+25] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (8 hours later)
Wait.
“Okay then,” said the Dungeon Master. “I didn’t want to do this, but let’s try again.”
He snapped his fingers.
This chapter includes a conversation with the DM that Juniper wouldn't remember. But, as chapter 73 demonstrated ("((()))"), Juniper is our narrator, at the end of the day. That implies that this memory would be returned to him at some point between now and the moment he sits down to tell the tale. That may be significant.
(Unless our narrator lied that he is Juniper, of course.)
^^(Plot ^^twist: ^^the ^^narrator ^^is ^^actually ^^Alexander ^^Wales. ^^...Wait, ^^what?)
u/WalterTFD [+16] (9 hours later)
Feels like he gets the memory back. I mean, the whole 'I won't write my true name' is another example of this being a conscious narration. Presumably the DM gives him the memory back at the end.
u/icesharkk [+4] (a day later)
that implies this is all post mortem narration. first indicated by the Mary of course, but that could have been written a few days post. This would be knowledge provided from quite a ways forward in the story.
u/nhdaly [+2] (4 days later)
It's also possible that the DM returned the memory to him the moment he left, in order to emphasize his power.
Presumably we'll find out which it is as soon as the next chapter posts! 😊
u/Keshire [+25] (10 hours later)
This chapter also doubled as a warning for Joon. Arthur has spent the majority of his life on Aerb. A horrible Aerb with Joon's fingerprints all over it.
u/therealflinchy [+4] (a day later)
I'm assuming that during arthurs time, he managed to make Aerb relatively 'better' and it's only really since his death and the lack of a "player"
also, that arthur mustn't have become a god?
u/icesharkk [+4] (a day later)
not necessarily. tabletop worlds can be enormous and hte DM mentions other planes. Authur may be dealing with level appropriate content elsewhere in the universe.
u/therealflinchy [+2] (a day later)
hmmm i'm sure we'll find out sooner or later hah
u/sicutumbo [+19] (an hour later)
Given Aerb's level of technology, I would be interested to know if computers, modern ones, count as mundane for the purpose of pulling out of the backpack. Even if it's just something as good as a decent phone, that's still a huge amount of computing power compared to not having computers at all, so long as it can be leveraged well.
... Probably not possible, actually. What phone comes installed with a compiler? Some laptops maybe, but I kind of doubt that would be considered mundane.
Also, pulling books out of the backpack would be cool. Technical books would be the most useful, but novels would be nice as well.
Oh, deodorant! Who wouldn't love modern deodorant when you're in a society that is only roughly in the industrial revolution?
u/SpeculativeFiction [+12] (44 minutes later)
Huh. Somehow I wasn't expecting a ROB. I think I like it better than the "Computer simulation" theory though. I've never really liked books set in virtual reality. It makes everything seem cheap and pointless, and ruins any real sense of drama or stakes for me.
The fact that everyone is real, and the plot and people won't be altered too heavily by the GM is a good thing.
u/C_Densem [+17] LessWrong (than usual) (56 minutes later)
On the other hand, it implies that there's a god out there who's basically a bored 30 something tabletop RPG nerd. Scary!
u/GaBeRockKing [+11] Horizon Breach: http://archiveofourown.org/works/6785857 (52 minutes later)
Huh. Somehow I wasn't expecting a ROB. I think I like it better than the "Computer simulation" theory though. I've never really liked books set in virtual reality. It makes everything seem cheap and pointless, and ruins any real sense of drama or stakes for me.
I'm willing to bet it's both, honestly.
u/icesharkk [+5] (2 hours later)
infinite library was just mention in a flashback and by Wales in the comments recently. Makes ke think Joon has been inserted into the ready made Aerb that already exists. Earth and Aerb are just books within. Equally real.
u/LordGoldenroot [+10] (58 minutes later)
Sorry, but what does ROB mean?
u/SpeculativeFiction [+22] (an hour later)
As mentioned by NotACauldronAgent, it stands for Random Omnipotent Being. It's a plot device used frequently in fanfiction, Quests, and a fair amount of actually published fantasy (A ROB decides to grab a human from earth for some reason to a fantasy world, there are dozens of books with this premise, though I forget the actual trope name.)
Few have the quality of worldbuilding this one does, however. It's sometimes used as a easy writer's tool to allow self inserts or simply someone from Earth, so they don't have to change write their protagonists thoughts/knowledge any differently from how they themselves think, but it's not a bad trope on its own. Like most, its how you use them that matters.
u/jaghataikhan [+3] Primarch of the White Scars (an hour later)
Portal Fantasy/Isekai?
u/SpeculativeFiction [+7] (an hour later)
Portal Fantasy, Summon Everyman Hero, Trapped in Another World, Probably Isekai as well, athough I'm not into Manga/Anime, which is why I didn't mention it. I have seen the term around though.
None of them specifically require ROBs, although they are a method used to explain the transition to a new universe.
Edit: I'm not sure there is a trope specific to ROBs, actually. I suppose like all good wiki's, one could create one, but there are already so many overlapping terms...
u/therealflinchy [+3] (a day later)
Portal Fantasy, Summon Everyman Hero, Trapped in Another World, Probably Isekai as well, athough I'm not into Manga/Anime, which is why I didn't mention it. I have seen the term around though.
weeb here, can confirm isekai = portal fantasy. means "another world"
iirc they don't often have ROB and aren't simulations either. I mean. some (errr most?) have video game layers, but they're at least posited as being real worlds in their own right.
u/NotACauldronAgent [+7] Probably (an hour later)
Random Omnipotent Being. What it says on the tin.
u/dalitt [+12] (10 hours later)
“He’s real,” said the Dungeon Master. “I know how much he meant to you. I’m not going to say how that’s possible, but you can draw your own conclusions, if you decide that I’m not lying. And he’s out there, somewhere on Aerb or one of the other planes. He spent most of his life on Aerb, he’s not going to be how you remembered him -- you know that, that’s not news -- but the Arthur that came to Aerb wasn’t just Arthur as you remembered him. He’s the real deal, Arthur as he actually existed.” The Dungeon Master had, finally, taken a solemn tone.
I see two possible implications here. One is that, as several commenters have written, the DM is a "Random Omnipotent Being." The other, which I think is more likely from context, is that Earth, like Aerb, is a simulation; Arthur can be transported from Earth to Aerb with no technological difficulty because his 'data' is already on file.
This leaves some interesting possibilities -- what would it be like to be put on Earth with Juniper's game powers? Juniper is very concerned with all the suffering on Aerb -- what about the suffering on Earth?
I'm also not yet convinced that the DM is truly a "Random Omnipotent Being" -- he seems too concerned with Juniper's D+D group to be a random being. What would his motivations be in taking Arthur and Juniper, specifically, into this portal fantasy? I wonder if he's Reimer, for example...
u/Noumero [+22] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (13 hours later)
I got a vague impression that the DM is answering to/working with someone, from these lines for example:
“This meeting may be monitored or recorded for quality assurance purposes.”
“You would be monitored, with no privacy. I’d be the one doing the monitoring, no one else would see my notes or have access to my data, unless you wanted them to.”
Why have recordings and notes if he works alone? That seems way too formal if he is just arbitrarily having fun. "Unless you want others to see your data" implies that there are others, and so on. Of course, it could all just be him being misleading. We don't even know if he is human-like or sentient, strictly speaking.
There are good reasons for him being so familiar with Juniper's group, though. He needed to pick Juniper's brain apart to create Aerb, and before that he probably searched for a suitable subject, which, with his abilities, probably involved mind-reading.
I see two constructive^(1) possibilities here:
It's a simulation, and it's done for research purposes. It's either mad/extremist science, or it's conducted by aliens, or there's another layer underneath the Aerb reality that makes it not-evil (e.g., there's no actual people in the hells, everyone else who suffers either fully consented to that or isn't sentient).
The DM is a ROB, and its plot is to create more ROBs. This process — putting someone in a world constructed as reflection of their personality, then giving them an opportunity to ascend — is, somehow, the only reliable or the most effective way of doing so.
They're both pretty flimsy, especially the second one, but still.
^(1. That is, in which the DM's motivation isn't "it amused me".)
u/akaatnene [+10] (20 hours later)
“This meeting may be monitored or recorded for quality assurance purposes.”
I thought the joke here is the recording of the meeting is used later to convince Joon of the Now he previously consented to being sent, or copied, into Aerb. I'm guessing the [REDACTED] part is Juniper still exists on Earth.
u/awesomeideas [+1] Dai stiho, cousin. (a day later)
Then why would Juniper vaguely remember the conversation if he had decided not to consent?
u/C_Densem [+6] LessWrong (than usual) (16 hours later)
"Why have recordings and notes if he works alone? That seems way too formal if he is just arbitrarily having fun."
Dude, what subreddit is this? :P
u/Noumero [+8] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (17 hours later)
Oops, that was quite an unfortunate phrasing. To clarify:
The DM is a godlike entity with access to seemingly-unrestricted mind manipulation. I would be very surprised if he doesn't have perfect memory and eidetic imagination, which make the entire concept of "notes" moot. Moreover, I'll admit it varies from person to person, but the way people keep personal notes significantly differs from the way they keep work notes intended to be shown to someone else. Personal notes are frequently haphazardly-ordered, full of personal jargon, and extremely compressed; now add the aforementioned mind manipulation to the mix. If the DM is a lonesome ROB, I would expect his "notes and recordings", if they even exist, to be utterly incomprehensible to anyone else.
On the contrary, the way he worded these statements implies methodology, that he is following some kind of script and formally cataloguing acquired data, and that someone else getting access to it is even a concern. There's no good reason (i.e., a reason that can't be reduced to "it amused him") for him to do so if he is both nearly-omnipotent and alone.
u/dalitt [+2] (15 hours later)
There are good reasons for him being so familiar with Juniper's group, though. He needed to pick Juniper's brain apart to create Aerb, and before that he probably searched for a suitable subject, which, with his abilities, probably involved mind-reading.
That's right of course. But I think it begs the question -- why choose Juniper and Arthur as subjects to begin with?
u/Noumero [+6] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (15 hours later)
Well...
“We’re kindred spirits, you and I,” [the DM] replied.
Aside from that, no concrete ideas. Because he wanted someone with Juniper's personality, I suppose.
u/i6i [+1] (3 days later)
The same reason the author chose them. The DM comes from our world so he doesn't have a means of resurrecting the dead he just has a supercomputer that can run couple of universes on it so he winds up recreating his old gaming group and sending them on adventures as a means of coping with his loss.
u/WalterTFD [+10] (3 hours later)
He said he wouldn't let him save the wishes. What does that mean as far as the 100 hot dog wishes are concerned? Can he use those in the future, or was DM just having a laugh?
u/Makin- [+13] homestuck ratfic, you can do it (7 hours later)
I fully expect Joon to at least attempt to use that wish in the future, can't tell whether it will work though.
u/AurelianoTampa [+14] (an hour later)
For all the discussion about Juniper being a self-insert for the author, I'm wondering if the DM is actually more of one. u/cthulhuraejepsen, any insight? Do you happen to look like the DM?
u/abcd_z [+24] (5 hours later)
I'm reminded of this quote from Unsong:
The orthodox conception was different. God is ineffable, invisible, unspeakable, unknowable. He is the author of the world, not an entity in it. But sometimes it’s useful for an author to have a self-insert character, so to speak. Thus Metatron. Not God. Definitely not God. But slightly less not-God than anything else in Creation. And the things in creation were already rather less not-God than most of them would have expected. So Metatron’s not-God-ness was very low indeed, practically a rounding error.
The Dungeon Master might not be the author, exactly, but I feel like he's more of the author than anybody else in that universe. If nothing else, they have many of the same goals.
u/I_Hump_Rainbowz [+1] (a day later)
Can you tell me where that quote came from?
u/abcd_z [+4] (a day later)
It's from the web fiction Unsong, a story where, to quote an online poster (Scott Aaronson):
Though not trivial to summarize, Unsong is about a world where the ideas of religion and mysticism—all of them, more or less, although with a special focus on kabbalistic Judaism—turn out to be true. In 1968, the Apollo 8 mission leads not to an orbit of the Moon, as planned, but instead to cracking an invisible crystal sphere that had surrounded the Earth for millennia. Down through the crack rush angels, devils, and other supernatural forces. Life on Earth becomes increasingly strange: on the one hand, many technologies stop working; on the other, people can now gain magical powers by speaking various names of God. A worldwide industry arises to discover new names of God by brute-force search through sequences of syllables. And a powerful agency, the eponymous UNSONG (United Nations Subcommittee on Names of God), is formed to enforce kabbalistic copyright law, hunting down and punishing anyone who speaks divine names without paying licensing fees to the theonomic corporations.
The actual quote came from chapter 71, but if you have some spare time it might be worth reading the entire story.
u/C_Densem [+14] LessWrong (than usual) (37 minutes later)
You know, after all of that, my main reaction is still "I wish I had a backpack that could summon infinite snickers bars".
u/kaukamieli [+5] (10 hours later)
You'd steal candy from a child? It said it gets stuff from earth, not that it creates it. So probably not infinite.
u/None [+11] (14 hours later)
[deleted]
u/C_Densem [+9] LessWrong (than usual) (16 hours later)
I had assumed "mundane stuff from Earth" meant "copies of mundane stuff from Earth that I'll spawn in for you" rather than literally taking it from Earth somewhere.
u/therealflinchy [+1] (a day later)
heh imagine buying a snickers, tugging on the wrapper then "poof"
u/Escapement [+7] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (41 minutes later)
a backpack that can get you mundane stuff from Earth?
... The clonal kit?
u/Makin- [+6] homestuck ratfic, you can do it (7 hours later)
I think the backpack will either be mostly used for either nostalgia stuff (books, media) or electronics, which don't exist on Aerb.
I will say it's funny that this is the first isekai that bothers actually justifying the mystery box backpack.
u/kaukamieli [+4] (10 hours later)
... I've never seen a mystery box backpack before. Is this a common trope? I think I'd have seen enough isekai...
u/scruiser [+3] CYOA (12 hours later)
I think it mostly shows up in CYOAs like those on /r/makeyourchoice
u/sneakpeekbot [+1] (12 hours later)
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u/GaBeRockKing [+6] Horizon Breach: http://archiveofourown.org/works/6785857 (53 minutes later)
This chapter kind of reminded me of The World As It Appears to Be. I like it.
u/MaddoScientisto [+5] (5 hours later)
I'm almost halfway through my reread and this new chapter pretty much completely changed my understanding of everything.
Like the book seller in barren jewel, what if he was the DM or influenced by him so that he would give the story book with the juniper smith reference to him?
I like to think it was actually the disguised DM
u/therealflinchy [+1] (a day later)
to me it seemed that the DM wouldn't interfere THAT directly.
u/MaddoScientisto [+3] (a day later)
He does nudge small things, why would he not arrange for a book to get into Juniper's hands?
We know that there's no narrative now, things aren't happening because they must happen but instead it's just some nudging here and there by the DM, which means that coincidences must be happening as a direct effect of that nudging.
How likely would it have been that a librarian was reading a book, that he later wanted to give to Juniper, which contained exactly a clue about Arthur?
How likely would the glove rocket on the way back to Barren Jewel have caught some sand to fall just a few short miles from the safety barrier, expecially after Juniper had just finished thinking about how in a similar occasion when he was DM he did exactly the same thing to give the players just enough tension for their out-of-the-box solutions to not make the final boss trivial?
Those all smell of DM involvement to me and I'll probably catch even more as I go on my reread.
u/Makin- [+2] homestuck ratfic, you can do it (a day later)
I think the rocket thing was subtler than that. The knowledge on how to build a rocket came from the game layer, and it intentionally gave him inaccurate knowledge in a way that would ruin the plan, not enough to kill them but still enough to challenge them.
Mostly because I don't really think the DM has as much fine control over the environment as that, he said it himself he arranged some things in person like the archery contest.
u/therealflinchy [+1] (a day later)
I'm surprised he hasn't used that skill since then either...
u/therealflinchy [+1] (a day later)
Book one, ok yeah maybe, I can't quite work out how to nudge that but yeah
Rocket one I can see that as a happy coincidence
u/nytelios [+4] (19 hours later)
Ahh Joon, opening with the age old question. The not-God DM throws him a bone, echoing Joon's grimdark worldbuilding and post-Arthur anguish. But Joon seems to be missing or ignoring all the hints that the DM is closely related to himself...
And the DM implies a point to the game! Someone once mentioned that this could be some form of intensive therapy for Joon and there's a reasonably strong case for that now. Consent + patient confidentiality? Joon was suffering from anhedonia and anger at an indifferent world after Arthur's death. Now he gets to confront the reality of his own death, fight back against concrete evils and enemies, solve immediate problems on his hierachy of needs, self-improve in a medium where everything aligns to his interests, and to top it off with some conditioning, fulfilling most of these gives a dose of pure pleasure (leveling). I've recently discovered the Japanese concept of "ikigai" and Joon's situation has significant overlap, with everything aligning.
ED: some leveling math. DM confirms 100 as hard cap. With primary/secondary caps being a respective x3/5, Joon needs 34/20 (base 2). He'll need to be at least level 22 to hard cap any skill.
Essentialism also got me considering munchkin-ing gold magic. Gold magic's pitfall is the call of the gold, but soul magic value editing probably counters that indefinitely.
u/JiggyRobot [+9] (6 hours later)
After the end of the last chapter, I am glad that we didn't have to wait too long for this one.
Did Joon get shorted on his wishes?
He asked for a hundred more wishes (hot dogs), which presumably has now been granted cause he can just pull loose hot dogs from his new backpack (gross) whenever he wants.
He wished to know what would happen to his companions if he died (not granted). And then the DM suggested a third use of a wish (backpack), which was the only one really granted.
Am I forgetting anything? Also, I know the DM said the relationship shouldn't be adversarial, but I am concerned that Joon took his suggestion of the backpack. I feel like that is what the DM wanted to happen from the whole exchange anyway. Maybe I'm just too paranoid though (or maybe not paranoid enough?).
u/LordGoldenroot [+13] (7 hours later)
He used the wishes to find out how solve his harem problem, if Uther Pendraig is the Arthur he knew, and the backpack. The hot dogs was explicitly was a joke, and he asked for the backpack in place of the death question, most likely because the answer to that one is almost certainly that they go to hell.
u/JiggyRobot [+4] (9 hours later)
Right. I had forgotten about the harem question. I guess I put it out of my mind because it felt like such a non-granted wish. He basically got told, "you can figure something out and/or it will sort itself out in time".
u/kaukamieli [+5] (10 hours later)
Well he offered extra information about it sorting itself out, so it should definitely count.
u/therealflinchy [+1] (a day later)
yeah it the DM definitely didn't want to be the cruel genie that would use up a wish willy-nilly lol.
. The hot dogs was explicitly was a joke, and he asked for the backpack in place of the death question, most likely because the answer to that one is almost certainly that they go to hell.
well... the fuller answer would be they continue on without him, the whole world continues on, and eventually they die, and either get consumed by soul energy devices, or go to hell.
u/Adeen_Dragon [+4] (7 hours later)
Anti-Haram wish was considered as granted.
u/scruiser [+3] CYOA (10 hours later)
So just started binging through a few days ago, finishing yesterday.
I actually had tried to pick up this story once before, and stopped partway through the first chapter. I saw the length and a few common LitRPG tropes, and I was worried that the LitRPG premise would be too generic and suffer from the same problem of turning into a power fantasy with no tension that dragged on. After reading Contratto and really enjoying it (after seeing a recommendation in a thread asking for rational vampires), I decided to give WtC another chance. I wasn't sure that WtC was going to be worth it until I got to the first explanation of "dream-skewered". It was an interesting enough device to keep me going. I think around the introduction of Fenn I realized I was really going to enjoy it. The story hasn't disappointed, the tension felt real, like anyone could actually die. The overarching question of simulation vs. ROB vs. other possibility has proven an interesting driver of both plot and themes. The meta gaming of the narrative hit just the right level of meta without taking away importance of the characters actions.
As to finding out about your alt pen-names (I wasn't sure, although Contratto made me suspect and I recall your other penname admitting to using alts recently, after nearly finishing my binge, I saw the recent thread were you acknowledged your alts), I think it was a good choice if it gave your the motivation or freedom or whatever else you needed to write this. It probably made me slower to give this story a chance, but on the other hand, I went in with fewer expectations.
As to the latest chapter... a risky choice I think, but you made the ROB trope work at close to the best I've seen it. I am expecting we will learn more possibilities when the party pursue the talk to the gods questline.
u/eroticas [+3] (20 hours later)
~5% prediction that Tiff is somehow playing Fenn / many of his companions turn out to be his old friends all along
u/therealflinchy [+2] (a day later)
oooh boy better be sub 5%
also the DM said it was supposed to be a real world, so their personalities would have to have been wiped for that to be real?
plus all his other friends mostly were male.
u/adgnatum [+6] (3 hours later)
First, you’ll get sent to a fantasy world that generally matches your aesthetic for an indefinite duration. You’ll have a character sheet stapled to your soul -- you’ll have a soul, they’re common there -- which will allow you to accumulate a tremendous amount of power over a very, very short period of time.
and from chapter 1:
and I was thinking about D&D for some stupid reason
Oh. Hm.
u/None [+1] (3 hours later)
[deleted]
u/awoods187 [+2] (23 hours later)
I think this world is a mental health experiment. Arthur was an early beta tester whose data is still around even though he is dead. Joon is fucked up and this is his way to deal with it gradually before returning to the real world healed/able to move on past Arthur.
u/elevul [+3] Cyoria Observer (a day later)
Bon, caught up (1 week of binging haha, my girlfriend wasn't happy) and while it's an awesome story I can't really stand the fact that 80%+ is character drama that very often feels like filler, the fights are... unimpressive and very swiftly dealt with, the training is often glossed over and, last but not least, there is barely any munchinkry, something that's usually a staple of D&D fiction. The unicorn fights allowing for instant capping of skills especially stands stark in my mind.
Additionally, Joel doesn't feel like a rational, let alone rationalist, actor at all and more like a typical teenager controlled by his emotions and standing strongly against his hormonal impulses due to the Feminist indoctrination from Tiff and his own White Knight impulse.
Overall a good story, very good, but the further I went into it and the more I felt that the Game element could have been removed and very little would have changed.
u/rabotat [+9] (a day later)
the fights are... unimpressive and very swiftly dealt with, the training is often glossed over and, last but not least, there is barely any munchinkry,
Those are basically exact reasons why I like this thing. I find most fights explained in text boring, they should be short. I enjoy plots that move on without a fight or a glossed over one.
Training would get very repetitive if described in detail, and munchkinry is fine in stories that are about gaming the system, I'm okay with the fact that this is not that kind of story.
like a typical teenager controlled by his emotions and standing strongly against his hormonal impulses
seems realistic to me, altough I would say Juniper is more rational than your average teenager.
due to the Feminist indoctrination from Tiff and his own White Knight impulse.
wut
u/sparkc [+3] (a day later)
Am I crazy for feeling like Juniper is far more reasonable and thoughtful than your average teenager?
Personally, the character drama is why I feel this is AW’s best story. Two of the chapters I enjoyed most were the 1 on 1’s with Juniper and Valencia. Additionally, Fenn is probably my favourite character he’s written.
u/mojojo46 [+2] (4 hours later)
How come Juniper didn't try to munchkin the wishes?
u/LordGoldenroot [+18] (4 hours later)
Probably because both the DM would not have let him do that as seen with the more wishes wish and would most likely not waited around for him to come up with something particularly potent.
u/Agnoman [+10] (5 hours later)
“I wish for more wishes,” I said.
“Okay, I’ll give you one hundred more wishes, but they can only be used to wish for a standard-issue school cafeteria hot dog,” he said with a smile. “Rookie mistake there, I thought you were better than this. And anyway, I’m not giving you those kinds of wishes. Little things, not plot breakers.”
Honestly there's a big part of me waiting for him to munchkin the hotdogs. I'm not sure how or why, just that I desperately want it to happen.
u/awesomeideas [+4] Dai stiho, cousin. (a day later)
Hot dog executions and/or bombs. Wish for the hotdog to materialize wherever you want. If you wish for it to materialize somewhere matter already exists, probably one of three things happens:
The hot dog instantiates first as a point mass and then quickly unfurls, pushing surrounding matter out of the way.
A hotdog-shaped void instantiates, instantaneously followed by a hot dog.
The hot dog actually instantiates such that it occupies the same space at the same time as the preceding matter.
It would be easy to differentiate these possibilities experimentally using only two wishes: wish for a hotdog to materialize mid-air, fairly far from you. This differentiates Scenario 3 from the others, because if scenario 3 is true, you should find a terrifying explosion (just that an explosion of any kind happened isn't sufficient to differentiate—see the following paragraph) or something similar because you just violated the Pauli exclusion principal and nature doesn't like that (ymmv in a fantasy world). At least you should find something weird. I think nuclear radiation is known to exist here, and you'd get a radioactive hotdog from the strong force binding atoms that got too close.
The second hot dog would be used to differentiate scenarios 1 and 2. You might get an explosion from scenario 1 or a loud pop, or even some slow air displacement, but you'd expect none of that from scenario 2.
Scenario 2 could be used to kill/maim by instantiating the hot dog within someone's brain.
Scenario 1 could be used similarly, or used to propel ballistics, depending on the alacrity of the unfurling process.
Scenario 3 could be used to wipe out a city, if the hot dog were instantiated within something of sufficient density.
u/WalterTFD [+8] (13 hours later)
You can't 'munchkin' a person with access to your mental state. Dude wouldn't even spring for Mountain Dew. This is one skin flint deity.
u/kaukamieli [+2] (13 hours later)
You could maybe hatch a plan in advance that relies on you getting in certain mental state?
u/WalterTFD [+4] (15 hours later)
I'm not sure what you mean, exactly, but the DM has access to a suite of tools that make the notion of putting one over on him kind of doomed.
Like, dude stops time. It's a thing he did. Presumably across all the Hells, all the planes, (across earth too?). It didn't seem to take any effort.
He can tamper with June's mind at will. He hides away the memories of his disclaimer conversation, he redoes the whole 'murder fantasy' portion of this thing.
The only way thing you are gonna get out of him is what he consents to. If you 'munchkin' him, and somehow it doesn't go as he likes, he can just rewind time and fix things. He is seemingly both omnipotent and omniscient.
u/kaukamieli [+2] (16 hours later)
This guy, sure. But if he only "has access to your mental state" you could maybe do something.
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (15 seconds later)
Typos here, please.
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (19 seconds later)
Typos here, please.
u/sharikak54 [+3] (3 hours later)
You used "reign" twice; in both cases it should be "rein", like controlling a horse (as opposed to the act of ruling).
See https://www.google.com/amp/s/blog.oxforddictionaries.com/amp/2012/03/26/rein-or-reign/
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (6 days later)
Fixed, thanks.
u/adgnatum [+2] (2 hours later)
After a chapter like that, how could I decline to read the first scene of chapter 1 again?
We stand a better chance of survival if its
it's
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+3] Fruit flies like a banana (2 hours later)
Fixed, thanks!
u/adgnatum [+3] (4 hours later)
(I hope this reread is bounded, I need to sleep)
Chapter 3
with memories of my pet hamster mildew
capital M?
I could practically see time his heartbeat
There are a lot of valid sentences close to this one. Is "see" the verb, and "time" the object (and then the heartbeat needs to be introduced in a new clause)?
Halfway done ,
space before comma
Chapter 4
elements of it that I recognized as mine .
more trailing spaces
Chapter 5
somehow )
you get the idea
They wouldn’t do that if they were just trying to kill us .
.
“It’s at least a beneficial form of insanity.” Dream-skewered .
.
The character sheet clearly did do something ,
.
just like you did back on Earth, dummy .
and
One down, fifty to go .
6
Amaryliss
and
( Quest Complete: Seven Bells for Seven Hells! )
Mixing it up, now there is space after the opening parenthesis as well as the before the closing
There are so many paths ,
.
Kill the hearts .
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+3] Fruit flies like a banana (6 days later)
Those spaces before the period or comma are a super-annoying result of how AO3 handles converting rich text to HTML, a process that works fine in almost all other circumstances. In later chapters, I've mostly worked around it, but it's especially annoying when the italics come immediately before punctuation that's not supposed to be italicized (this is one of the reasons that you'll sometimes see quotes or commas italicized, and I generally consider that too minor to go fix). You have to change it within the HTML code, and if you toggle between rich text and HTML, it will add the spaces back in because of how it's separating the em tags.
Anyway, all that should be fixed now, thanks. I should probably spend thirty minutes of my time looking for variations on " .", because it crops up a fair amount.
u/adgnatum [+2] (3 hours later)
saved me from getting my bite
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (6 days later)
Fixed, thanks.
u/adgnatum [+2] (3 days later)
End Book IV
The only one that's not in all-caps
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (6 days later)
Fixed, thanks.
u/None [+1] (an hour later)
[deleted]
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (an hour later)
Yup, fixed, thanks.
u/WalterTFD [+1] (2 hours later)
For some reason I was expecting the DM to call him 'Kiddo'. I think I got the general vibe right, but missed the wording.
u/GaiusCoffee [+1] (10 hours later)
Juniper met the DM. Reminds me of the time the Acquisitions Incorporated crew met actual Chris Perkins while in-game.. :D
u/nakor28 [+1] (18 hours later)
I would bet that the DM turns out to be Arthur.
u/Noumero [+7] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (19 hours later)
Don't think so. It's a pretty obvious twist, probably even Juniper considered it, and the DM was explicitly described as someone Juniper didn't know. Of course, that only means the DM didn't want Juniper to recognize him, but still.
Additionally, Juniper described DM!Arthur as playing with kid gloves, which this DM definitely doesn't do. Of course, Arthur may have learned, or lied, or Juniper's memories of Arthur's DMing are false, or something else. Still, it's an evidence against.
u/Ace_Kuper [+3] (a day later)
Juniper described DM!Arthur as playing with kid gloves
The DM described Arthur as such and Juniper just agreed silently.
u/4t0m [+1] Chaos Legion (21 hours later)
This is really an excellent story. I'm embarrassed to say that I dropped it a few chapters in, only to pick it back up when I saw that you had written it.
I'm glad you're still writing!
u/therealflinchy [+1] (a day later)
wow what a chapter.
Don't think this could have gone any better.
it was like... everything but nothing.
u/PanickedApricott [+1] (a day later)
maybe he can pull a solar panel and a computer out of that backpack. or a bazooka.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
DM said "mundane". Obviously Earth doesn't have magic so the limitation must mean something else. Electronics are likely out.
u/PanickedApricott [+0] (2 days later)
DM is June so the classifier for "mundane vs not mundane" is likely contained within Junes head or a copy of it. So likely at the very least whatever june thought mundane meant at time of "wishing" it is probably the definition. He currently exists in a magical universe so I think mundane means non-magical.
u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (3 days later)
I think mundane means non-magical
That doesn't make sense to me, because everything on Earth is non-magical, but surely not everything is a valid backpack target.
And the DM is not June, that's the first thing he noticed.
u/PanickedApricott [+1] (3 days later)
There's plenty of evidence that June is an unreliable narorator when angry.
It doesn't make sense because you have a different idea of what the context is. I think it's the context of the universe and you think it's the context of old Earth.
u/awesomeideas [+1] Dai stiho, cousin. (a day later)
"Do I know you?" I asked.
We're kindred spirits, you and I," he replied.
Hmmm...
u/derefr [+1] (a day later)
/u/cthulhuraejepsen, have you ever watched the movie Cube? Or, moreover, Cube Zero?
u/serge_cell [-1] (6 hours later)
This ROB encounter feel underwhelming to me. No philosophical disputes on the problem of evil, questions about life, universe and everything or meaning of consciousness. Killing the god with fists and wandering in infinite emptiness afterward would be a novel plot ending, but that did not happens. Not enough sarcasm or cynicism not even any political ax grinding. I'd prefer this chapter didn't exist.
PS It could be potentially saved by later revelations but I don't have high hopes for that.