12 KiB
[D] Rationally Writing 41 - Worldbuilding: Second Order Effects
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Author: u/DaystarEld Pokémon Professor*
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Score: 19
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Created: 2018-04-08T04:28:36
Post:
Comments:
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (59 seconds later)
Hey everyone! This week we discuss worldbuilding, and why considering second-order effects is so important to making it rational, and can help in finding or fleshing out good plots. Hope you enjoy it!
Timestamps
2:50 Battle School concept
6:46 Inadequate Equilibria As Story Elements
22:55 Shadows of the Limelight
28:22 Consequence of the Consequence
37:20 Aesop Exacerbation
41:14 Confronting Civilizational Inadequacy
u/SkyTroupe [+1] (a day later)
If I havent finished Shadows of the Limelight should I skip that section?
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (a day later)
No spoilers that I can recall, just general thoughts on what went into the worldbuilding.
u/SkyTroupe [+1] (a day later)
Thanks!
u/OnePunchFan8 [+1] (9 days later)
Can I have a link to your other podcasts? I'm interesting in rational worldbuilding and writing in general.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (10 days later)
Sure!
u/OnePunchFan8 [+1] (13 days later)
So I've listened to podcasts 0-10 so far (minus the magic system ones), and I'm want to ask you some questions:
Do you think it's safe to say that most good villans believe that they are doing good?
Have you watched one punch man? I know it seems very shallow and dumb at first, but it gets really interesting regarding human character (especially the manga as the story is much more progressed). It's not a "rational" style story either, but it is a really good one imo.
I recall the other guy saying he likes how superman is really "human" in a sense, and it kinda reminded me of Saitama, the protagonist of one punch-man. He's got overwhelming power, but because of it he's constantly bored and depressed, he's more worried about which day is garbage collection day, or whether today is that massive bargain sale day, rather than if, say there's a meteor about to fall on the city, or a monster it's about to kill a child, since these are (to him) trivial problems to solve. He's also poor, so he's got to worry about paying rent.
For example here's a nice analysis on the protagonist
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (13 days later)
- I think it's very hard to make interesting villains who do not believe they're doing good, but that "believe they're doing good" is not on its own enough. It's the principle, but not the execution: I think the villain needs to also actually come across as sympathetic in some way that the reader can relate to or understand.
Which means that they can't just say "I want to blow the world up because that's best for everyone because it's so shitty," or "I need to subjugate this race because they're evil and so I'm making the world a better place." The writer has to actually go through the hard work of making the villain's perspective sympathetic, and the more heinous the villain's plans, the harder that is, which is why most writer's barely bother.
There are some niche roles for villains that can be great that don't rely on this, by the way. Most edge toward "force of nature" type villains, or are engaging in other ways like having unique personalities or just plain being fun to observe in their element. Others make good villains because they're uniquely terrifying, regardless of what they believe. But villains whose actions seem justified are usually among the most memorable, and often end up more popular than the heroes in the stories they're in, because they brought something new to the audience's experience whereas the heroes are usually more uniform.
- I have watched OPM, and enjoyed it a lot :) I also really liked Mob Psycho 100 by the same creator: I actually enjoyed it even more. The protagonist of that one is also very unique for the "insanely powerful young man" archetype. That post was great though, thanks for sharing it!
The other guy on the podcast is Alexander Wales, btw, and if you haven't read anything by him, you should really check his stuff out! Speaking of Superman, his Metropolitan Man is a great exploration of the character.
u/OnePunchFan8 [+1] (13 days later)
Yeah, I've actually already read metropolitan man, I really liked the part where lex calculated the average amount of lead in the ground to determine how far superman can see into the earth. Even if the ending was a little depressing and somewhat anticlimactic, I did like it.
I think superman probably could survived just by slowing down his perception of time and pushing down the wall (so that he would be cut up by little pieces of kryptonite)/breaking it with the table (same reason) instead of blasting through it though. The fact that he could blast through the wall shows that he wasn't that weakened yet.
I also really enjoyed mob psycho 100, I find mob to be a really relatable and interesting character, he's definitely more interesting than Saitama so far, though it's unfair to compare the two given that mob psycho 100 is actually complete. I love how powerful mob is and how he really just wants simple things: to be liked by others, to have friends, to understand others etc, and how these insane powers don't help him a single bit. In comparison to charisma, psychic powers may seem far superior, but Reigen (the embodiment of charisma itself) shows that he succeeds and deals with problems far more effectively than mob ever could.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (13 days later)
My interpretation of that was that he blasted through the wall faster than the effects could weaken him, but it resulted in pieces of kryptonite embedding into his body, which rendered him unconscious.
I didn't mean to compare the protagonists directly, was just saying that I really enjoyed the way Mob's struggle was portrayed, as you said, to demonstrate how little his powers actually helped him with what he really wanted in life, and how he was willing to work for that stuff instead of feeling entitled to it. I'm sure OPM will continue to develop too: I've only seen the first season, haven't read any manga yet.
u/OnePunchFan8 [+1] (13 days later)
I highly recommend the manga, the artstyle is insanely good, and the artist (Murata) is insanely talented and hardworking. Example 1, Example 2, Example 3
Here's a link to the chapter that takes place right after the first season of the anime, if you don't want to read the same stuff as in the anime. Here
Here's the first one, if you want to start from the beginning
While most manga/anime have boring bonus/filler episodes/chapters, one punch man has very interesting chapters that are disconnected from the main story, like a spin off. You can read them in any order side they're disconnected. For example here's a bonus chapter regarding a small portion of Saitama's past
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (13 days later)
Thanks, I'll try to check them out soon!
u/OnePunchFan8 [+1] (13 days later)
Oh, on the subject of physic power, have you heard of any stories where a weak but rational (or at least rather intelligent) esper finds clever ways to apply his powers instead of brute force like others would? For example just by breaking the chemical bonds in an object in a 2 dimensional manner would allow them to cleanly cut through even an extremely durable material, or knocking people out by squeezing a major artery shut.
Maybe they'll trick people like Harry does in HPMOR, for example say espers (in this world) can't heat things up or cool things down, and the protag could create a vacuum (or least an area of low pressure) to boil water and trick others into believing he somehow can use pyrokinesis when it's just "plain" psychic power.
I read worm for a while, but it was really long and got a little tedious for me, I recall there being some kind of mechanic the author introduced that explains why someone who can make portals or protective shields can't just form a portal/shield in another person to instantly bisect/kill them, which I found pretty interesting.
I was just wondering if there was any such story that you know of.
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (13 days later)
The closest thing I've read about this was in the Alvin Maker books, an old Orson Scott Card series that never got finished. It's not explicitly psychic powers, but he can basically alter matter at will, and uses it in some clever ways. Another is in the Eragon series, where the protagonist eventually starts using telekinetic magic to just snap people's necks. Can't really think of more complex interactions than that, but I'm hoping to explore something similar myself in Pokemon :)
u/OnePunchFan8 [+1] (13 days later)
Cool! In eragon they can't really use acute application of power easily though, since basically any major threat would have defenses against it.
I remember eragon was taught the words of death or something, I remember them being very energy efficient ways of killing entire armies by blocking arteries and whatnot. Though I don't think it was ever actually used...
u/DaystarEld [+1] Pokémon Professor (2 minutes later)
Book recommendation by /u/alexanderwales:
My recommendation for this week is The Stormlight Archive series by Brandon Sanderson, starting with "The Way of Kings." Sanderson is a rather prolific author, and this is his epic fantasy series, with thick, doorstopper books, dozens of viewpoint characters, and a larger scale than he's worked on before.
I feel like worldbuilding, and specifically, second-order worldbuilding, has always been one of Sanderson's strong points. The world of Roshar is dominated by immense, rock-hurling storms that move from east to west, which has all sorts of interesting first order effects, like the best places to build cities being in the lee of a mountain or cliff, and architecture being suited specifically to defend against heavy winds from one side. The second order effects are in trade, travel, the organization of civilizations, and the prominence of cities. Because the highstorms grow weaker as they move across Roshar, the vegetation and plantlife is affected, and the civilizations that live within them are adapted to different conditions.
If you want to give it a listen instead of a read, you can go to Audible and get a free book credit when you start a trial, and by using that link you can help support the show!
u/Marthinwurer [+1] (14 hours later)
Seconding Stormlight Archives. Brandon Sanderson is one of the best modern fantasy authors, and the world building for roshar is amazing.