scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/8aur5p.md

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• Author: u/None *

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• Created: 2018-04-09T01:26:27

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u/InfernoVulpix [+76] (35 minutes later)

If we didn't already know that this was Book 3 of 3, I'd expect for this to have been the end of Book 3 and start of Book 4, with something very critical changing fundamentally as the next phase begins. As-is I expect this will throw a monkey wrench into the works but ZZ will still figure out a solution.

Glad to see the return of real stakes, though. It's been mentioned in previous chapters that the many things ZZ need to do can get stale when the worst possible outcome for anything is losing one restart, and not only is QI one of the few opponents that outclasses ZZ his soul magic makes the stakes properly intense again.

ZZ are a lot closer to getting out now that they can get the Ring and possibly the Dagger, but the Rod is still unknown and they still have to get QI's crown. I figure we'll have at least one more 'in the loop but not particularly high stakes' arc before we start gearing up for the finale in the real world.

All-in-all, this chapter was one of the most enjoyable in quite a while and I'm looking forward to seeing the consequences of getting partially soul-energy-blasted, since last time this happened it ended up with Zorian hitching a ride in the loop.

u/I-want-pulao [+27] (an hour later)

Stakes had to return at some point. I'm not sure how many chapters remain (the author is cagey about it as well) so you never do know... At the same time, you're right that the Rod remains and until then, people are safe.

Unless the author decides to kills or make otherwise unavaliable Xvim or Alanic. Things were progressing too smoothly...

u/ricree [+27] (5 hours later)

As I understand it, even the complete destruction of an unmarked soul will just get reset at the next start. So Xvim and Alanic should be ok.

Zorian I expect to be well, if not unscathed, but I suspect that Zach might not have been so lucky. It's possible that Zorian will be alone again for a time, if not indefinitely.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+24] (6 hours later)

Precisely my thoughts. Zorian saved himself but still felt some effects. If Zach was closer to the blast, he probably ate it harder than Zorian.

I don't think it'll happen, but here's the kicker: What if Zach ate it hard? As in, he's comatose for the remaining loops hard? But Zach is so fun, I definitely would not enjoy that. :P

And then, and then . . . Zorian saves both of them because he's a true friend of Zach, but then when he exits the loop, RR was Zach all along! The twist is real! Zachorian was never meant to be . . . /s

u/Florac [+16] (7 hours later)

And then, and then . . . Zorian saves both of them because he's a true friend of Zach, but then when he exits the loop, RR was Zach all along! The twist is real! Zachorian was never meant to be . . . /s

I know there's /s, but we saw RR and Zach in the same room before Zach could summon Simulcrams.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+10] (7 hours later)

Right---that was the reason for the /s, but just to mess with you, if Zach is Red Robe, then Zach knew how to cast simulacra all along, but due to memory shenanigans or maybe skilled method acting, Zach couldn't remember how or pretended to be unable to cast the spell!

Remember---Zach admitted to finding the simulacrum scroll years ago, so maybe when we saw RR and Zach in the same room, we actually just saw Zach and his simulacrum!

In reality, that theory is not likely at this point because of how simulacra work: Simulacra are linked to the original's soul, so if RR or Zach is just a simulacrum, then when RR left the loop, Zach's soul would have left too because they would share the same soul. In other words, after Red Robe left the loop in chapter 26ish, Zach should have become a lifeless husk just like Veyers and the Aranea---at least, that what makes sense to me.

u/Nimelennar [+2] (a day later)

Or, at least would have reverted to pre-loop Zach.

Or, if it's all been a masquerade on Zach's part, and he is RR, then someone else has exited the loop.

u/LordGoldenroot [+2] (a day later)

Also souls don't work like that. In the one of the worldbuilding posts it is mentioned that when you get better at magic it is you soul getting better, not your mind and only the gods could mess with that. Additionally, I find it hard to believe that Zach could fake being of a vastly lower skill level in soul perception than he was for so long. Even if Zorian would not have noticed Alanic would have surely noticed something being off sooner or later.

u/Alestor [+21] (7 hours later)

A theory I have is when QI learned of the loop from mind raping Xvim, he decided to adhere some of his soul to Z&Z with the detonation, knowing that ultimately it wouldn't cost him anything as a fake entity.

I imagine Zorian would proably end up with a significant knowlege boost, and possibly even the divine blessing out of that, but as a main character would have enough plot armor to not be overwhelmed in mind. Zach on the other hand might start having a split personality issue and become a real threat for Zorian as QI encroaches on his soul.

It'd be a cool place to take this, since it would put a real lasting threat for Zorian, but its probably going to just be a theory since the price of Zach would be too high and the power boost would probably be a bit much (but would offset the loss of Zach)

u/-Fender- [+3] (16 hours later)

I think that Zach might be out of the story until they're out of the loop. He might have been really hurt by that blast.

u/I-want-pulao [+3] (11 hours later)

I agree with you (I've remarked elsewhere on the loop essentially killing all non-loopers each repitition). What I meant was that Zach and Zorian need to lose something that is important to them during the endgame.

u/sambelulek [+10] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (5 hours later)

I've got to disagree on your first paragraph. It most likely unintended, but author has a theme going. Namely, the protagonist will enjoy victories big and small as the story goes, but something outside his knowledge screw him big way by the arc's end. In this chapter, we aren't told what's the consequences of QI soul detonation. If it screw ZZ big way next chapter, then that will mark the arc's end.

Still, this chapter cuts above many others.

u/icesharkk [+5] (6 hours later)

That much soul damage is going to result in a lot of lost restarts. And likely zach or zorian will be down longer than the other. Leaving one of them to collect all the pieces in the remaining (3ish) restarts and carry the unconscious one out of the sovereign gate.

u/karsyutain [+65] (3 hours later)

So Zorian's strange danger sense again.

It first appeared in chapter 4

... he almost failed to notice one of the winter wolves attacking Zach had stealthily broken off from the main pack and was sneaking up on him. Almost. Thankfully, some primal instinct alerted him to the danger and he threw himself to the side, narrowly avoiding the creature's deadly pounce.

Next is ch 34.

And then, two weeks into the restart, he woke up in the middle of the night to see a black-clad figure with an obscure face and a knife in their hand standing over his bed.

Later on, he would wonder what had tipped him off that he was in danger, but in that moment he simply reacted.

And then ch 83.

later, Zorian would wonder what exactly tipped him off and made him immediately activate his marker's restart switch when realized Quatach-Ichl was rushing at them.

And another thing. On the surface, it doesn't looks like other cases, but I highly suspect this example might relate to above cases.

In ch 35. When Zorian met Sword Divers.

Zorian almost lost consciousness as nine attacks slammed into his mental shield, crushed it like an egg and then ripped straight into his unprotected mind. the pain was excruciating...(omit)

He felt his muscles lock up as an alien mind seized his motor control away from him and started rooting in his head for facts and memories. He had to do... something... had to...

suddenly an image flashed before him, of two necklaces hanging from his neck, one of them inscribed with the defensive spell that ultimately failed him and the other that contained...

his mind suddenly snapped back into place, his course of action clear. Activate the suicide rings, that's what he had to do.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+43] (3 hours later)

Can we not chalk this up to him being an empath? Are you suggesting he may have some kind of inborn natural divination ability as well?

u/karsyutain [+34] (4 hours later)

I've considered the possibility that it's the ability of the empath. But if that were the case, wouldn't the author reveal it directly? Instead, It seems like the author constantly just hinted it over and over. So I thought may be there's something hidden in the Zorian with danger sense.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+28] (5 hours later)

You could be right, but I don't think the author would necessarily reveal it directly. Narration never deviates from 3rd person with access to Zorian's head. If Zorian doesn't think back to those events with enough clarity to realize what happened, then the story wouldn't reveal anything about those events. I think that might be what's happening.

But again you could be right and it would be an interesting twist. I feel coincidentally having empathic abilities was already a massive deus ex machina, so to be honest, I would sort of resent yet another inborn power like that. Honestly, as much as I love all the mind magic shennanigans and wouldn't change it, on principal I generally dislike those kinds of inborn power-ups in main characters.

u/The_Magus_199 [+8] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (16 hours later)

Eh, I was okay with the empathy because it came early and was foreshadowed in the first loop; I’d definitely be a little eehhh on another inborn power showing up now though.

u/Lethalmud [+1] (14 hours later)

Yeah it kinda feels like cheating.

u/PhilanthropAtheist [+1] (19 hours later)

But how are we going to guise plot armor?

u/sambelulek [+10] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (4 hours later)

In a glance, they sound like a Deus Ex (or some trope I can't name). But author won't repeatedly mention that if they're just a device to keep the story going. Keen eye, u/karsyutain! I guess we might get our answer in future chapters.

u/None [+3] (14 hours later)

Plot armor is the trope you're thinking of. The fact it is unexplained after the fact is interesting though.

u/distrofijus [+17] (5 hours later)

it may also be attributed to the "killing intent". It is sorta negative emotion - someone wants to kill you. Zorian is a very perceptive mind mage/empath and this is a very powerful emotion.

u/icesharkk [+9] (6 hours later)

I think it's too late in the story to reveal a new character super power. This is probably the climax of the plot: do to being unconscious from the soulboom the boys only have 3 more months to escape. No more time for boring training of new latent magical talents.

u/AKAAkira [+8] (18 hours later)

Being an empath does include better reception of divination results in general, because being an empath means having a mind framed to better "accept" that input. Spear of Resolve even mentioned way back when that an "occasional prophetic dream" is one of the things that come with being "Open". I think we can chalk this up to his empath abilities - a kind of extremely short-term death divination that acts as an inconsistently-activated "danger sense".

u/vallar57 [+7] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (16 hours later)

Add to the list his ability to predict whether Xvim was going to throw marbles at his head or to the side even before he learned the mana cloud trick. It can't be attributed to his empathy because a mind shild blocks it.

u/dashelgr [+2] (11 hours later)

Ohh this is a great catch. I wonder if it's a bloodline inheritance of his from his Mother's side.

u/vallar57 [+50] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (4 hours later)

He attacked, his organic guise melting away to reveal the black skeleton wreathed in green light that lurked beneath the skin.

His body appearance was hard to read, but he looked like he was a little… rattled.

You sneaky little...

u/Crazy_Demon [+51] (30 minutes later)

Wow...Despite all of Zorians warnings of how dangerous dealing with QI was I did not seriously expect him to actually be able to threaten them in the time loop.

You really can’t fuck with Quarach Ichl.

u/akaltyn [+42] (57 minutes later)

I'm wondering, Zorian originally joined the time loop via QI messing with his and Zach's souls, what are the chances that QI used this oppurtunity to put himself into the loop? If he wasn't scary enough imagine him in every loop hunting them

u/Nimelennar [+49] (an hour later)

I'd say "nonexistent." Being able to detect, examine, exactly reproduce, and imprint a complicated soul marker, at a moment's notice, in combat? From an opponent whose soul is shielded? In the time it takes Zorian to press the reset button?

No, I don't think that's likely. If QI could do that, he would have already done so when he had access to another looper (Red Robe).

u/None [+32] (an hour later)

[deleted]

u/-Fender- [+2] (16 hours later)

Zorian seems to have handled the situation really well on his end, though. But he has better soul defenses than Zach does. It's possible that Zach will be out of commission for the rest of the loop, until Zorian exits.

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (a day later)

he has better soul defenses than Zach does.

Is that still true? Zach has enough soul awareness to cast Simulacrum. He hasn't trained perception of others' souls as heavily, but you don't need that to defend yourself.

u/-Fender- [+1] (a day later)

It most likely is still true, yes. Simply having Soul perception is a huge plus. It allows you to better perceive what you're doing to your own soul, and what other people are doing. Being able to perceive Quatach's soul is mentioned as one of the potential tell-tale signs that Zorian perceived before he buffed up his defenses right before the blast, too.

Most likely, Zorian still generally has better defenses, and he probably responded to the attack better than what Zach did. I fully expect Zach to be out of commission for a while, although I guess that we'll see if my prediction is true next chapter.

u/thrawnca [+24] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)

what are the chances that QI used this oppurtunity to put himself into the loop?

No, he still didn't realise what was going on. He thought that somehow they'd trapped him in an illusion, which is why he had such a hard time believing it; his skills would make it extremely difficult to ensnare or fool him that way.

He apparently doesn't know about the Sovereign Gate. Presumably he knows the legend, given his interest in the imperial artefacts, but he doesn't know what the Gate really does, not enough to recognise what had happened.

u/akaltyn [+48] (3 hours later)

Immediately before the explosion he did a memory probe on Xvim, which presumably gave him whatever he knows about the time loop

u/Nimelennar [+29] (2 hours later)

I got the impression that he learned (enough of) the truth from the Xvim mind-probe; he started talking more sensibly afterwards. Or, at least, until he detonated.

But as I've said elsewhere, at that point, I don't think he had the opportunity to get into the loop before it ended.

u/09eragera09 [+4] (a day later)

He did know, tho. He read Xvim's mind. He even referenced it by saying that people like him didn't really matter, as only ZZ would persist after a reset, which is why he blew his own soul up to take them down

u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (3 days later)

Yeah, but at that point, he had about 10 seconds to work, maximum. No way did he work out how to forge a Controller marker in that time.

u/09eragera09 [+3] (3 days later)

Of course, I wasn't disagreeing with you there

u/eSPiaLx [+20] (3 hours later)

because its happened before, its technically possible for this explosion to put QI in the loop. However, that's stupid, because its been stated multiple times that Zorian getting into the loop is supposed to be something like the ultimate coincidence, unrecreateable. We are told the creators of the marker are smart enough to put in many safeguards, to prevent this EXACT case of transferring markers. So if 2 consecutive soul attacks bring 2 people into the loop.. that's BS and a bad plot gimmick.

u/Mountebank [+8] (3 hours later)

But Red Robe also got in somehow, so it's been done twice so far.

u/RiOrius [+21] (4 hours later)

I'm betting (slash hoping) that's due to something more interesting than "freak soul magic explosion."

u/Saffrin-chan [+12] (6 hours later)

We already know there's a built in method to (temporarily) add someone to the loop for a few months. I think the dominate theory about Red Robe right now is that Zack gave him a temporary marker and he somehow subverted it to be added permanently. This theory still has the question of how Red Robe was able to subvert the temporary marker, though.

u/Sceptically [+5] (a day later)

I'm betting Red Robe subverted it with the help of QI. After all, how else is an otherwise mediocre mage going to get that done in a hurry?

So he gets QI's help with either making the temporary marker permanent, or just resetting its counter each loop (hence explaining why Red Robe was initially helping QI).

u/SevereCircle [+1] (4 days later)

We already know there's a built in method to (temporarily) add someone to the loop for a few months.

We do?

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+3] Father of Learning (an hour later)

I believe the term is "shitting bricks"

u/sambelulek [+3] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (3 hours later)

what are the chances that QI used this oppurtunity to put himself into the loop?

I want to offer more elementary answer: It's not controller's soul found itself attached to the Lich's soul. The most that can happen is the other way around: the controller get ahold of Lich's soul. Therefore, QI won't be looping. There's nothing in his soul to instruct looping mechanism.

u/Dismalward [+8] (39 minutes later)

They really don't need to defeat him but just take his crown. Even though its harder than getting the ring, they are really ramming themselves against a wall trying to strong-arm an issue that should be done easier with tricking the lich. Just try alot of options until one sticks otherwise they will keep running into the whole self destruct soul thing.

u/PresentCompanyExcl [+6] The Culture (3 hours later)

Well he can transfer his soul between bodies, but not the crown. So the crown must have been sitting in an unused body. The only visible defences was one guard. I'm sure there are more defences but but it sounds like a good start to a trick.

Of course he might have been lying about that, and he just teleported there.

u/Copiz [+1] (11 hours later)

I'm guessing that body didn't have the crown, and that his primary body was somewhere remote and safe with the crown. It's not a bad idea though, but probably not something that could safely be pulled off.

u/PresentCompanyExcl [+1] The Culture (21 hours later)

Oh yeah, we don't know if he came with them directly or stopped back home.

u/Banarok [+1] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (2 days later)

or he teleported the crown and the body swapped, since the crown have low mass in comparison to the rest of him he can send it way way longer since tp is size dependant.

u/PresentCompanyExcl [+1] The Culture (3 days later)

tp is size dependant

That makes sense

u/ricree [+1] (5 hours later)

They don't have that many resets left, and QI is likely to be very careful about the crown.

u/Dismalward [+2] (5 hours later)

Ugh it sucks they wasted so many resets not tackling the issue and shelving the entire thing as too dangerous. They don't need to dedicate an entire restart and even have one of their copies on it while they had focused on other things. They're already having so many side projects already I don't see why tricking the lich couldn't have been one of them.

u/xamueljones [+42] My arch-enemy is entropy (3 hours later)

I feel like QI's denotation of his soul was an intelligent move rather than a suicidal one. QI knew that no matter what he does, ZZ could do nearly anything to him with the help of the time loop. Once they get out, they have extensive knowledge on him while he's utterly ignorant of two adult mages in the body of innocuous teenagers. And there's no changing that whatever he does in that moment.

However, there's a version of him who is still well-off. The version of him one month ago. And all he needs to do to save that version of him...is to destroy their souls.

So I believe the soul-bombing wasn't just a desperate act, but also a move to ensure a version of him will be very well-off after the time loop is over with all but one of the controllers dead. Also, some people seem to think he knows Red Robe even if he doesn't know about the time loop.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+16] (3 hours later)

I completely agree that his soul detonation was strategic rather than desperate. I didn't think of the implications with Red Robe, but I'm really curious what learning of the time loop means for his current relationship with Red Robe---assuming he has an existing relationship with Red Robe at the beginning of the month.

u/Nimelennar [+8] (4 hours later)

And all he needs to do to save that version of him...is to destroy their souls.

Souls can't be destroyed.

However, they can be mutilated.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+30] (5 hours later)

Well, souls can't usually be destroyed---unless you're the Sovereign Gate and it's that time of the month again. :P

u/Grasmel [+5] (6 hours later)

Actually, do we know that the gate actually destroys souls? What if they're all released and sent on to the afterlife - would anyone alive notice the difference?

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+17] (7 hours later)

I don't think we got the answer without a shadow of a doubt, but I take the Gurdian's lack of correction to be implicit confirmation.

https://www.fictionpress.com/s/2961893/55/Mother-of-Learning

"When an iteration is over, everything in it is destroyed," the Guardian began. Well, good to have that confirmed… Zorian had assumed it was so for a while now, but having the Guardian verify it was nice. "Under certain philosophical outlooks, this could be viewed as mass murder…"

[...]

"What about a normal, un-diverged copy?" asked Zorian. "Surely there is no harm in replacing the original with a normal copy. They're practically the same thing! It's what makes it okay to destroy millions of souls every month or so, isn't it?"

The Guardian hesitated. A short, tense silence descended on the scene as it considered the scenario.

"So long as the copies do not diverge too much from the original, such a switch would be theoretically acceptable," the Guardian eventually admitted.

u/kaukamieli [+2] (19 hours later)

Maybe it throws them to hell instead. :D It might not know the specifics itself even.

u/SevereCircle [+1] (4 days later)

If someone is born two weeks into the loop and gets a new soul then they'd have to lose it at the end of the loop. Probably.

u/GemOfEvan [+44] (an hour later)

I'm dissapointed that this didn't happen:

The first was a powerful dispel which stripped the man of all his personal defense spells… including his mind blank. The second was some kind of mind magic spell.

...which was stopped by an identical mind blank Xvim instantly put up.

u/Nimelennar [+48] (an hour later)

I think that was a quite deliberate choice to show just how quickly QI could cast that spell.

What you describe is exactly what I expected to happen, and it was a "Holy shit" moment when I realized it hadn't.

u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+52] (3 hours later)

Yea one of Xvim's mind magic exercises for Zorian was precisely how to quickly restore your mind shields when they are dispelled, and Zorian tested Xvim's own mind shields and found that they came back so fast that he didn't even notice he broke them.

Yet hasted lich is apparently even faster than that.

u/thrawnca [+32] Carbon-based biped (an hour later)

Xvim's usual mental defences, which he can rapidly restore, are not Mind Blank. They're vulnerable to a sufficiently powerful assault.

I'm sure that a defence specialist like himself is able to cast Mind Blank flawlessly, but with the known side effects, it's not something that he would do frequently, so it wouldn't be instantaneous.

u/None [+1] (a day later)

[removed]

u/thrawnca [+7] Carbon-based biped (a day later)

He did cast Mind Blank; QI dispelled it.

I'm sure that given time, Xvim would be able to restore it, but it's not something he can do instantaneously like a regular defence.

u/None [+31] (44 minutes later)

Zach should have hit the restart button the moment they got what they needed out of QI. Spending a moment longer in his presence after they got the ward design was dumb, they knew he had access to extremely powerful and unknown soul magic and could betray them at any moment.

u/Alphanos [+32] The Bright Powers (an hour later)

Zach should have hit the restart button the moment they got what they needed out of QI. Spending a moment longer in his presence after they got the ward design was dumb, they knew he had access to extremely powerful and unknown soul magic and could betray them at any moment.

Except that the other thing they still need from QI is more experience fighting him. They expect that to escape the loops, they will need to be able to defeat him in combat and take the crown before he can escape with it - which they still haven't managed to do yet. They have a limited number of restarts remaining to test working combat strategies against him before they run out of time.

u/Dismalward [+10] (an hour later)

Thing is they don't really need to combat the lich as long as they could recreate the situation where Zorian used the coin trick which sounds hell a lot easier than fighting a 1000 year old lich (who they learnt now that can soul detonate himself). They don't need to throw the coin themselves as well but just use another student.

Anything else would be easier than trying to fight the lich imho.

u/thrawnca [+28] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)

as long as they could recreate the situation where Zorian used the coin trick

Which they can't. It depended on getting close to QI, and drawing his attention, while letting him believe that they're harmless. Pretty difficult to reproduce at the best of times, and consider how they'd have to put everything else on hold for it to work.

u/Dismalward [+12] (2 hours later)

Well they don't need to use the coin themselves so long as the coin hits QI. They don't even need to put anything else on hold as long as they had that happen with a friend or mind-controlled person. Obviously they only do it at the end of the restart so QI doesn't mess them after the fact it fails but it could work if Zorian didn't have any hang ups about long term mind control.

QI isn't as good at mind control as Zorian and they only need to do trial and error of throwing the coin at him via a proxy/different settings to see what sticks. Tbh he should have started on this as soon as he learnt QI had the crown but they keep wanting to strong-arm this entire situation. Its not a waste as long as they are doing other things and I find it wasteful they went through so many restarts learning QI has the crown yet not trying anything on him (as far as we know). It only has to be during the invasion like i said to be safe.

u/thrawnca [+18] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)

It was thoroughly discussed - and dismissed - in chapter 80.

u/Dismalward [+14] (2 hours later)

It was thrown out in favor for going guns blazing. He only said he doubted he could create a situation yet nothing indicated he even tried which he should have as soon as the crown was found. They only need to do the one attempt per restart and its not like they have any other death defying ideas to do on their last day. It doesn't even need to be them and its not like leaving the lich alone for mutiple restarts was smart of them when they could at least try.

I still feel its the author trying to throw out solutions by that sentence because they want the lich to be dealt in another way.

u/thrawnca [+17] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)

He only said he doubted he could create a situation yet nothing indicated he even tried

Keep reading; Zach went on to say that he had tried to throw items at QI in the past, and QI is expert at deflecting or even returning them.

The odds of them getting past his defences in that regard within their remaining iterations are too low to warrant the risk of facing him. Just look at what happened this time; ZZ may be a while recovering.

Being very generous, I'll allow that they might have a 1% chance of surprising him and dispelling him each time they try. But they might also have a 10% chance or more of having him get suspicious and hit them with enough soul magic to do them lasting harm. And the more they gear up for the confrontation (like warding their souls), the worse their chances of taking him off guard.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+25] (3 hours later)

Idea:

Attempt to replicate this restart's palace heist with QI. If successful, repeat the gate to Xlotic.

Ahead of time, put down a plate enchanted the same way as Kael's coin right where the gate exits into Xlotic.

Humans rarely take notice of what is directly below them, so QI may not realize what he's stepping on. If he does notice (which I would expect seeing as be would be on high alert stepping through an unknown portal), fight him as planned. If he doesn't notice, well---now you have a crown and a dagger as huge payoff for a plan that was improbably successful.

u/Dismalward [+4] (3 hours later)

The thing I'm saying is that they don't need to do it but make someone far less imposing do it probably a fellow student. If its happened before with Zorian then they can do it with someone else just need to set it up properly and try to manufacture a situation that take advantage of QI's arrogance. Then just keep repeating that scenario every restart they want to take his crown.

Doesn't them taking the ring or defeating QI the first time tell you that you don't always need to use brute force to get something. QI is even diplomatic that they can offer to give him the same things red robe gave the invasion in the past in order to let down his guard and learn more stuff about him.

u/GoXDS [+1] (16 hours later)

except that QI was thoroughly offguard that time as well as he felt no one could threaten him. he was ambushing them and couldn't detect anyone of such skill to keep him on guard. thus, they'd have to recreate a situation but with the presence of 2 highly guarded individuals. he's gonna lower his guard to anyone in that situation?

u/Dismalward [+1] (17 hours later)

Like I keep on repeating, they don't even need to be there and why they can just try with student by giving them a coin. Just say it's rumoured to be able to defeat liches or some nonsense if you don't want to mindcontrol them.

You don't need it to succeed all the time, just only once and you're good. It's well worth the risk though it's kinda scrapped if they are on a time table and kinda annoying they never tried it earlier. It's better than them doing nothing to the lich all the restarts they knew he had the crown. Btw it only needs to be done during the invasion.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (22 hours later)

IMO they need two methods to deal with QI:

1. A reliable way to defeat QI under specific, loop-replicable conditions so they can always get the crown.
2. An extremely robust method to defeat QI under the chaotic post-loop conditions where RR might be present. It needs to be done once, but arguably that's when it needs to work 100% of the time, which is why this method needs to be extremely robust.

Both methods could be the same method if there's a reliable enough way to do it each time. I think having QI think he needs to use soul magic was a handicap they could exploit as their method 1 approach.

---

In the loop where the coin was used, Zach had the students have a party in his mansion. Red Robe tracked Zach down to the mansion specifically to discover who the other loopers were. You would have to hope to create a similar scenario sans RR and that may be doable, but it may be problematic.

Also, I think Zorian could be present albeit pretending to be merely a student. A disintigrating beam to that vampire heir woman would attract QI's attention, and there you go. It's worth a try if you ask me---but I maintain that the hardest thing is to get QI and the vampire lady into the mansion in the first place without the influence of RR.

I think another attempt could be to similarly raid the Imperial Palace with QI, eventually gate away to Xlotic like in this past chapter, but ahead of time place a plate below where the gate will open so that QI steps on it. If notices the plate and doesn't step on it---well, now they get to practice fighting QI normally again, this time hopefully with the addition of a small army stored in the Orb.

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (a day later)

In the loop where the coin was used, Zach had the students have a party in his mansion.

No, different loop. QI did show up in that one IIRC, but Zorian never saw him, just got disintegrated. The confrontation with vampire girl was at the school; Zorian never left the dance hall until afterward.

u/pleasedothenerdful [+2] (14 hours later)

Also, it only happened because RR was hunting Zach among the students.

u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+6] (3 hours later)

The problem is: this isn't useful combat experience. The QI they are fighting now knows that something funny is going on and is mainly using soul magic and mind magic attacks. Not to mention he has to go easy on them with the lethality of his magics otherwise they die and he gets no mind/soul to read. In contrast, normal QI will be using straight up kill magic attacks, which is an entirely different beast. So the experience they gained in this battle isn't going to match up with the battle they have planned with normal QI.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+10] (5 hours later)

But imagine the soul detonation hadn't occurred. If they could induce this sort of situation every restart and reliably incapacitate QI, then they would have a way to get the dagger and crown and they'd have four of five keys. One more key and their exit path is secured. By then, the only remaining hurdle would be to have a solution for fighting QI normally to permanently end his threat---which they could also practice---but remember is a whole other project in itself because it involves destroying his phyactery. If they just want to end the invasion, they could instead try to sabotage the creation of QI's special gate structure, which I think they already know results in the Ibasans just giving up.

I think the risk was maybe worthwhile---though I agree that it probably would have been safer to just prefer fighting QI normally to avoid the dangers of soul shennanigans.

u/icesharkk [+7] (6 hours later)

There aren't going to be any more loops. Zz are going to be knocked out for a very large number of loops after this. The new time pressure will be a result of losing something like 25-30 months unconscious

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+8] (6 hours later)

Stop scaring the children.

u/GoXDS [+2] (16 hours later)

but as mentioned in the chapter, QI was forced to non-soul magic so they did gain useful combat experience

u/loonyphoenix [+24] (an hour later)

Nope, they do need to analyze the artefacts, and a restart would put the artifacts back where they started.

u/Agnoman [+11] (an hour later)

I think Caesar's point is that after studying the wards ZZ can presumably get the artefacts on their own, and so it might be better for them to lose part of a restart now than to risk permanent soul damage.

u/thrawnca [+8] Carbon-based biped (an hour later)

They wanted the crown. When would they have a better chance to get it? And they wouldn't have minded analysing the dagger, either.

u/DCarrier [+1] (4 hours later)

The problem is that one of the things they needed was combat experience against QI in particular. They need to face him and take his crown at some point. Though they could have gone for experience in trying to trick him into touching the lich-killing coin.

u/Green0Photon [+25] Student in Cyoria, Minmay, and Ranvar (36 minutes later)

Nobody103 drops the worst of cliffhangers sometimes.

Freaking killer, man.

u/I-want-pulao [+23] (15 minutes later)

QI is even more dangerous than we thought.

u/None [+34] (42 minutes later)

Quite frankly he's a bit underwhelming to me. Zorian is powerful with 10 real years of mage experience, a very good work ethic, and 1 natural gift. Zach is stupidly powerful with a (presumed)divine blessing and 65 years of mage of experience. QI has two divine blessings, the crown, a 1000 years of mage experience, and no morals holding him back in anyway. Presumably he also has a good work ethic too and put those years to good work. He should be an absolutely unstoppable monster.

u/GodKiller999 [+61] (53 minutes later)

It's not like he did a thousand years of intense training. There's a point where people stop getting better (beside for small things when it's needed) and instead make use of their skills.

u/akaltyn [+9] (9 hours later)

Also he has (practically) infinite mana reserves, due to the crown, blessing, and miscellanious magic. He doesn't need to do anything special to win, just outlast everyone.

u/sicutumbo [+52] (2 hours later)

He basically is though, within the limits of the universe. Against 5 mages of extremely high caliber, with no preparation, on ground prepared by the enemy who have intricate knowledge of his abilities, he was more than holding them off. He seemed to not even consider escape, even when he already had the dagger. The only reason he suicided was because he saw from Xvim's memories (remember, the archmage who specializes in magic defense) that fighting was pointless.

u/kaukamieli [+8] (8 hours later)

Well, he wants the orb too. at least. :p

u/sicutumbo [+2] (14 hours later)

He does, but presumably if he thought that he was likely to lose he would choose assured Crown + Dagger over the smaller chance of Crown, Dagger and Orb. As it is, there's no evidence he even tried to escape.

u/Nimelennar [+34] (55 minutes later)

I'm more impressed that QI was able to get in an attack in the space between Xvim's mental shield being dispelled and coming back up.

We know Xvim has practiced this very thing (because he's made Zorian practice it), and has probably perfected it to his own ridiculously high standards, so that must have taken exquisite timing.

u/notagiantdolphin [+17] (2 hours later)

He's basically a Swiss watchmaker's fetish. God only knows what his specialty is, but he comes off as a crossbreed between Zach and Xvim. With some of Silverlake's more exotic aspects.

I suppose post timeloop they might offer him the 'keys' to the treasury to frame another nation for the break-in instead of launching an invasion where his precious troops are killed. Fighting him is a bit of a null game.

I wonder if the damage to their souls from this might lose them additional restarts, like when the original mutilation happened?

u/FlameSparks [+3] (7 hours later)

Why do they need to break into the vault post loop?
The whole reason they are breaking into the vault is because of the loop so after the loop there is minimal incentive to do it in the real world.

u/notagiantdolphin [+4] (7 hours later)

I assume they'll want to prevent the invasion of C after they escape, assuming they don't return at the end of the timeloop. The vault seems like the safest way to do it instead of fighting the terrifying skeleton man.

u/Menolith [+3] Unworthy Opponent (a day later)

What does the vault give them to make stopping the invasion easier?

Yes, it has powerful artifacts, but Z&Z can find those in every nook and cranny nowadays. More conventional preparation has proven to be highly effective and it doesn't require them to break into the most highly guarded area they know of.

u/notagiantdolphin [+3] (a day later)

Like I said, it's not about what they get out of it. It's because they give Q-I a chance to trigger a war without the invasion. Q-I wants to trigger the war and make Firn win. So they break into the place, plant evidence implicating F. Q-I gets to save the lives of his soldiers, who he apparently values. He gets to plant some evidence implicating another nation. He gets whatever he can carry off. C isn't invaded.

Well, not immediately, anyway. Maybe in the future. But by another nation, and not a military action that involves a terrifying undead wizard with a thousand years of experience.

u/thrawnca [+10] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)

Xvim's regular shields are not Mind Blank.

u/jaghataikhan [+3] Primarch of the White Scars (21 hours later)

I think that's only due to the hast spell he was able to slip between the gap in between Xvim s barriers

u/eSPiaLx [+23] (3 hours later)

tbf they've yet to actually defeat QI. Hell just now it was a 5v1 and QI didn't actually lose. He realized the futility of simply fleeing, and instead managed to gain the information needed to actually do the one action that would have any possible real impact on our mcs.

He only seems non-threatening because of the fundamental limitation of soul magic- that it's slow/clumsy in offense, which means despite his thousand years of experience QI can't actually just snap his fingers and wipe out ZZ's souls.

u/I-want-pulao [+19] (45 minutes later)

Zach and Zorian also have the gift of information, which is priceless.

u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+16] (4 hours later)

He should be an absolutely unstoppable monster.

He invested all those years into defensive and utility magics. Hence hasting, personal Bakora gates, lich magics, etc. With all the simulacrums and fake bodies he's pretty much impossible to kill. His offense is weak because he probably didn't think he would need them to be any stronger than they already are.

and no morals holding him back in anyway.

QI does have morals, it's established that he is just from an ancient time when values are different, more based on honor than human rights. He actually cares about his country and his people, though he is incredibly strict on them. So that means he won't go around performing human experiments on his people or can't take reckless actions that might provoke other countries to declare war on his country, not without decades of meticulous planning.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+15] (6 hours later)

And let's be real, we're using the word "weak" in a very skewed sense; homeboy is a walking artillery platform. When he isn't just using soul magic---which is inefficient to cast in battle---he can usually single-handedly stand toe-to-toe with an army of mages as we've seen in the past: and we're talking about an army of mages being led by two timelooping archmages pretty familiar with how he fights plus Xvim and Alanic.

u/Sceptically [+6] (a day later)

Not to mention there's a non-zero chance that his speciality is something like demon summoning or similar, and he's just cut off from using it inside the loops.

u/thrawnca [+14] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)

QI was greatly handicapped by the fact that he knew he couldn't properly hurt ZZ with physical attacks, while they were free to launch anything they pleased. He probably could have killed their bodies, but he could guess that that wouldn't work - plus, he wanted information.

And although his mana reserves were greater than all his opponents combined, their group would have had greater total casting speed.

u/akaltyn [+10] (55 minutes later)

Quite frankly he's a bit underwhelming to me

He is stated already to have multiple bodies, so I doubt he was under any real threat of death in that fight.

u/GodKiller999 [+14] (3 hours later)

He detonated his soul, he's very much dead (in this specific restart that ended anyway).

u/ricree [+11] (5 hours later)

He knew about the reset, though, thanks to Xvim's memories. By blowing up his soul, he trades a few days or weeks of life in exchange for wiping away two serious adversaries who could seriously threaten his plans.

Take things back to exactly how they were before the loop, and he is still an ancient and powerful lich. Zack and Zorian, on the other hand, are just teenage students.

u/GodKiller999 [+3] (12 hours later)

Never said it was a bad decision, but if he'd been tricked and everything was 'real' he'd very much be dead. His decision was logical knowing that he'd be doomed anyway at the end of the iteration.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+4] (22 hours later)

It'd be really funny if in the last month, Zorian gained the ability to do deep brain edits, edited Xvim's mind temporarily (questionable) so Xvim would believe a loop was occurring, then recreated what happened in this loop.

QI, invading Xvim's mind and believing he's in a loop, decides to self-detonate, thus permanently committing suicide. Tricksy hobitses!

PS: I in no way endorse this plan. Casual deep edits of a mentor on the off chance everything goes according to plan isn't my idea of a reliable strategy.

u/GodKiller999 [+9] (22 hours later)

Since the world wouldn't be cut off from the spiritual realm I doubt QI would be jump to that conclusion this time around. Still a funny idea though.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (22 hours later)

Ah, that does throw a wrench in things...

u/kaukamieli [+1] (a day later)

Uhh, we know now how to destroy him completely in the real world. :D Tell everyone it is just another restart and...

u/GodKiller999 [+1] (a day later)

Wouldn't be likely to work, the spirit realm won't be cutoff in the real world.

u/RiOrius [+1] (4 hours later)

Wait, wouldn't that mean he'll be dead in later restarts as well? Like the aranea?

u/None [+13] (4 hours later)

no his soul will be recreated by the time loop, the aranea were deliberately excluded from having souls recreated for them by Red Robes usage of a imperial artifact.

u/jsxt [+10] (4 hours later)

Diminishing returns are a thing. Plus just because QI is a powerful mage does not mean he has super powered multitasking - fighting multiple talented mages by himself requires much more effort than fighting 1 at a time in sequence.

u/Negatively_Positive [+7] (2 hours later)

He fought not only ZZ but also Xvim, Alanic, and Silverlake who all are very powerful. Considering they almost defeated him before few tries ago, the outcome is not surprising.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+20] (3 hours later)

Here's an interesting idea:

What if QI's soul suicide leaves a lasting scar on ZZs' souls that will be instantly recognizable to QI (just like how Sudomir recognized Zorian fiddling with his soul marker), thus barring recruiting his help (or at least acting as a warning sign for him) for several restarts if not into perpetuity?

Well, we'll have to tune in next time to find out! It'll be something to keep in mind if they meet QI off the battlefield again---and even then, I feel he wouldn't act immediately upon seeing such a scar but use the scar as a clue that he would bring up later.

Another theory:

His soul explosion actually fused small shards of his soul onto theirs. The small shards perhaps don't have any lasting effect other than to mark them, which again would make QI instantly suspicious upon seeing them again.

u/icesharkk [+14] (6 hours later)

Sure, also they're unconscious for the next 25 loops. And one of them is permanently soul damaged. Better find a way out with like 3 loops and no help

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+9] (6 hours later)

I'm messaging you in three weeks. If either Zorian or Zach is unconscious for less than ten loops, then you owe me fifty internet points. :P

u/icesharkk [+3] (11 hours later)

Haha. Okay 😂

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (20 days later)

ahem :)

u/icesharkk [+1] (20 days later)

Fuck

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (20 days later)

I admit that your version would have been pretty cool. Maybe once the story is done, you could make a fanfiction that forks at this point. :P

u/DRmonarch [+18] (3 hours later)

The ring's soul tracking marker would be a neat way to find QI's phylactery and hopefully figure out a quick and dirty way to end him outside the loop.

Fun thing from rereading- Zach knocks off the crown in chapter 26.

u/sambelulek [+13] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (3 hours later)

Uhh..., I think ring's inability to be used that way is addressed in this very chapter. Ring is not available to ZZ at the beginning of the loop.

I also noticed Zach ability to knock off the crown in one of my rereading. I was waiting for somebody to bring it up. So, do you think knocking it off could equal to steal them away?

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+11] (4 hours later)

Not to mention that in the chapter, it says placing a soul tracker on a soul mage is instantly recognizable, so the tactic would not work on QI even if they could place the tracker on him in the middle of the month after getting the ring.

As far as knocking off the crown is concerned, that would be an interesting idea. If they could fight such that Zorian is hidden somewhere, if during the fight everyone could focus on hitting the crown, maybe a well-placed gate spell when the crown falls would allow Zorian to retrieve it. However, I feel depending on stealing the crown mid-battle like that would be too unreliable, but maybe they could try it.

u/FlameSparks [+9] (7 hours later)

If they can manage to use the coin trick on QI while a tracker is on him, they would know where the phylactery which would be an insta-win from then on. The biggest problem with this is that since the tracker can exist over multiple loop and they can't abort the spell, QI knows something is happen every restart.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+3] (8 hours later)

That's a really good point!

Hmm . . . we'll have to see if the tracker indeed exists over multiple loops as this was the first loop they've used the ring.

u/Saffrin-chan [+5] (7 hours later)

Well, the ring wouldn't "work" in the sense that QI would instantly know something had been done to his soul, but he probably wouldn't be able to remove it. The only reason they were able to remove divine tracking from their souls this chapter was that they were able to get out of range so the tether snapped on its own. If the ring's range is 'everything inside the time loop,' then QI wont be able to get out of range. So using the ring tracking on him has a trade-off of immediately putting him on alert for the entire loop, but when they do get the ring a week after the loop starts, they'll be able to find him anywhere. But I don't think that's a good trade-off for them, because as long as they keep the loops somewhat consistent they'll always know about where QI will be anyway, and being able to fight him when he's not on extreme alert seems more important than tracking him on the off chance something causes him to greatly change his schedule.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+4] (7 hours later)

I think I was imagining that when a soul mage knows they've been marked, they would be able to remove said mark. If QI wouldn't be able to remove it, then that's a different story. Of course, in that case as you say QI would no longer be acting normal, which defeats the purpose for him at least.

u/Dismalward [+3] (a day later)

Well I imagine QI isn't all powerful since he wasn't able to remove the tether they got from breaking into the vaults which is divine in origin so if the artifact works on the same divine level then they might be able to track him. They'll just trick him with the coin and they should be good unless the QI is sufficiently powerful enough to redirect where his soul goes to when his "defenses" activate from the coin trick.

It seems alot easier going that route than fighting him over and over which might be pointless unless they can destroy those skull things and be able to keep his soul in place under the wards that silverlake promised.

u/GoXDS [+1] (16 hours later)

there's probably no way to realistically stay hidden from QI's soul sight/sense. plus there is a range limitation on Gate placement and ofc the cast time. surely QI has enough skill in mana sensing to sense that taking place

u/Dismalward [+1] (a day later)

Yeah i personally hope they try to take advantage of QI's arrogance to 'defeat' him(take his crown) since that seems like his Achilles heel.

u/DerSaidin [+5] (a day later)

This is what I was thinking.

1. Make thousaof those coins Zorian used once before to disconnect QI from his body, but make them the size of sand. Scatter them around planned dimensional gate exit - all over the ground, in the breeze, everywhere.
2. Tag QI soul with the ring just as he steps through the dimensional gate. If he notices and tries to stop, be ready to blast him through the gate.
3. In the rest of this restart, while you do have the ring, track QI soul to his phylactery
4. Repeat over multiple restarts, sending a simulacrum towards the phylactery before you start each time. Each restart starts tracking from closer than before.
5. Go ask QI nicely for the crown. When he laughs, threaten him with the exact location of his phylactery.
6. When he still refuses and starts trying to kill you, have your Alanic-and-friends strike team attack his phylactery so he has to abandon the body with crown to defend it.

u/xamueljones [+34] My arch-enemy is entropy (36 minutes later)

This is a wonderful birthday present for me, despite it not being April 20th yet!

And here I sincerely thought QI would have had some information about the previous time the looping had occurred. Instead he comes up with a hilarious miss-guess.

Also, I really don't like Silverlake acting as if people sticking to their ethics are babies or stupid for doing so. I bet the ideas she has about abusing the timeloops revolve around stealing or tricking others into doing research for you in various ways.

Edit: I seem to have sparked off a discussion about whether or not Zorian and Zack are foolish for 'handicapping' themselves by ignoring unethical actions. Since it's too late to weigh in properly, I only would like to point out that the disagreements seem to boil down to arguing whether utilitarian (the ends justify the means) or deontological (the ends don't justify the means) ethics are better.

Yes, yes, it's an oversimplification of two complex moral philosophies, but I needed a pithy summary of the two.

u/None [+13] (an hour later)

[deleted]

u/Overmind_Slab [+3] (2 hours later)

This would be research that Tael would be doing for them though. He said that the research would obviously be from human experiments. I don't know how I'd feel if ZZ showed up and gave me all this work I had apparently done through the use of horrifying unethical experimentation.

u/elevul [+1] Cyoria Observer (9 hours later)

How about if you could save millions of lives through that research?

u/FlameSparks [+3] (7 hours later)

Huh this is actually good and not an ethical dilemma. The only limiting factor is the fact that finding the right subjects and making sure the medicine works on the illness and is not hyper specialized for the subject.

u/Dismalward [+30] (41 minutes later)

It IS stupid though. They aren't getting any prizes for being moral in the time loop and making things harder for themselves by placing self-imposed handicaps whereas being more ruthless can easily see more results than what is being done now.

u/Nimelennar [+52] (58 minutes later)

The problem is that the only things that can change in the loop are the two of them. Meaning that if they become more ruthless inside the loop, it might create habits which are difficult to break when consequences affecting other people become real again.

u/Dismalward [+6] (an hour later)

Well consequences don't matter at all if they can't get out of the loop. Why handicap yourself further when there's a chance you might permanently die if you do that? Sounds pretty stupid to me.

One way or another one of them is going to make it out of the loop given that they are the main characters but it's still pretty stupid to make things harder to yourself when solving a serious problem. Tbh I won't be surprised if they are down to the last restart and have to only allow one of them to escape.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+24] Father of Learning (an hour later)

Are they not people just because their lives only last a month? You're still a murderer if you only kill one identical twin! Just because they're short-lived doesn't make them any less people, and it certainly doesn't make it any more ethical to torture them for information.

u/Dismalward [+5] (an hour later)

I'm not arguing it's ethically wrong or right. I just believe it's stupid to not do these things when they need to get out of the time loop and defeat the Red Robe/save peoples lives. Its more about practicality than morality.

Why even Zorian might even be able to defeat the lich without needing to be there if he becomes proficient in the long-term mind magic since he could have the mind control person try to recreate the events which Zorian himself did to defeat the lich(throwing the coin at the lich because the mind-controlled person look ultimately harmless also the lich himself could hardly tell since he isn't nearly as proficient at mind magic as Zorian). They don't even need to be there in person and only show up after the fact to reap the rewards then immediately run away but they won't do that because of the morality of long term mind magic.

u/Nimelennar [+18] (an hour later)

I'd like to hear your explanation of how to become someone who routinely puts considerations of practicality above considerations of morality without becoming a twisted, horrible person in the process.

u/Dismalward [-3] (an hour later)

Just keep your sense of self and its a made-up world so nothing would apply outside. As long as you get the results you need you don't need to continue to apply it in the outside world in said situation of Zorian. Why even Zorian himself has admitted he isn't ambitious so he would mainly make due with being self-employed and have a well to do lifestyle.

Majority of those twisted horrible people are those who can't stop and continually do such things are weak and merely do that to satisfy what carnal desire they want whether its money, power, women, etc. Now if you are arguing just because he does such acts he would be regarded as twisted then look at Alanic. He sure as hell didn't get powerful in soul magic by being good but he was able to reform or see the light.

u/Nimelennar [+20] (2 hours later)

Just keep your sense of self

You are your habits. You become the things you do. Wear a mask too long, and you become it. The wolf inside of you that grows stronger is the one you feed.

Whichever cliché you choose, it comes down to the same thing: if you do bad things often enough, you become a person who habitually does bad things. You can't "keep your sense of self" because no one thinks of themselves as "a bad person."

its a made-up world so nothing would apply outside

No, it's explicitly not a made-up world within the Gate. The people are physically real. They have souls. They feel pain, they feel emotion, they think exactly like the people they are copied off of. The only difference is that they cease to exist after a month.

Why even Zorian himself has admitted he isn't ambitious so he would mainly make due with being self-employed and have a well to do lifestyle.

Zorian is a freaking teenage archmage (or, at least, well on his way to becoming one). He has an immortal friend who can brew him potions of youth, and probably has a few other paths to immortality. He may not be ambitious now, but he'd be a fool to make any decisions right now about his possible futures. He could, almost literally, do anything he wants, for as long as he wants, when he gets out of the loop. Once the time pressure is off, he should probably devote a lot more time to considering that.

Majority of those twisted horrible people are those who can't stop and continually do such things are weak and merely do that to satisfy what carnal desire they want whether its money, power, women, etc.

I'm sorry, I'm going to need a citation for that. Most of the monsters I've seen have gotten into bad habits of thought (e.g. "prisoners are bad people who deserve to get raped;" "there are no innocents in Gaza;" "[indigenous population] are ignorant savages who can't govern themselves;" etc.), and do bad things because they can't bring themselves to care about the well-being of others outside of their Dunbar group.

Yes, there are people who do bad things because they have compulsions they can't resist. I somehow doubt they are the ones causing the vast majority of suffering in the world, especially compared to the systemic evil some people perpetrate on people different from themselves.

Which makes getting in the habit of thinking of real-people-who-reset-after-a-month as not-real-people-at-all a pretty risky choice, morally speaking.

but he was able to reform or see the light.

I'm certainly not arguing that redemption is impossible. It's just a ridiculously harder path than just not bothering to become evil in the first place.

u/Dismalward [-5] (2 hours later)

And if you think that makes them "stupid and babies," well, I sincerely hope that no one I care about is ever in a position dependent on your making the right moral decision.

Now you are making this entire thing personal where I actually find this behavior both childish and stupid. Good day to you sir and I hope you can read on this in the future and reflect on what you said.

^

u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+12] (4 hours later)

its a made-up world so nothing would apply outside

But it isn't a made-up world. It has already been established that there's no actual time looping taking place: the sovereign gate creates a new world every "loop" and then destroys it at the end of the loop. That means the people inside are real.

If your argument is: "They are going to die, or they can't get out of the doomed world anyway, so what's wrong with experimenting on them?" then I must ask: Why not experiment on criminals who have life imprisonment or the death penalty in reality right now? They have the same restrictions: they are trapped and doomed, and will never escape into the "outside world".

Also it would not surprise me if some non-loopers do find a way out of the time loop. After all, it has already been established that primodial prisons connect the loop worlds with the real worlds, so there are exit paths, just highly dangerous ones. Such non-loopers would know about Z&Z's morality within the loop.

u/Dismalward [+1] (4 hours later)

My argument is that they are not searching every avenue towards getting out of the time loop due to their morals as opposed to actual consequences since everything is recreated in the beginning of the time loop.

Well as for your question on experimentation on criminals is because the criminals do infact exist in the real world and someone can trace all that back to you. Morally it is worse because these are not copies but real people who won't be recreated ever again. there's a difference between cutting off the leg of a lizard and cutting off its head.

Besides its not like ZZ are taking enjoyment in killing or other stuff they do. They do it because they need to in order to work towards getting out of the time loop.

u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+6] (5 hours later)

Well as for your question on experimentation on criminals is because the criminals do infact exist in the real world and someone can trace all that back to you.

Yes, hence the later part of my argument saying that things you do in the time loop could potentially be traced back to you. After all, it isn't really looping time: it's just creating "prison" worlds and populating them, then destroying the worlds. There are ways to escape from the loop worlds into the outside world, just like there are ways to escape a prison. It's just much harder, but clearly doable: after all, Red Robe did it.

Morally it is worse because these are not copies but real people who won't be recreated ever again. there's a difference between cutting off the leg of a lizard and cutting off its head.

What makes the copies not real? At the start of the time loop, they are identical in pretty much every single way to the people in the outside world, the only difference is their location and time of creation. Neither of which seems like a good reason for why the outside world people should be considered more real than the loop world people. Rather than cutting off the leg of a lizard, it's more like cutting off the head of an identical twin.

Also, "real people who won't be recreated ever again" is really weird as a moral justification. Does the ability to recreate someone magically mean that now it's more moral to kill them? That their moral rights are now worth less simply because no matter how badly you treat them, they can be recreated?

(I imagine that our future machine overlords will take offense to this.)

u/Dismalward [+1] (5 hours later)

You can explain the morals but it's no use. Even ZZ don't take lives much seriously as they'll kill by necessity and console themselves with the fact that it's a time loop. If they treated the lives of those inside the time loop as real then they would go insane as they would be damning multiple ppl inside the city when they don't save the city every loop or killing innocent ppl who've been simple doing their jobs.

u/Banarok [+1] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (2 days later)

they still go out of their way to kill as few as possible, viewing everyone as renewable is really dangerous since all human lives are basically finite, and justifying things with "they are gonna die anyway" get awfully close at hand if you start down that route, especially if you have acess to a alchemist that can make immortality potions.

and they feel bad about the people the killed at the airship heist, but remember they didn't kill anyone (knowingly) in the heist itself but did it in self defense later when they got attacked, and yes they console themself with the fact that it's a time loop but they still don't think it's okey.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+3] Father of Learning (2 hours later)

...... Have you considered teaching a psychology class your brave new ideas on human psychology?

u/Dismalward [+1] (2 hours later)

Thanks for the compliment! /s

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+3] Father of Learning (3 hours later)

I'm always a fan of teaching children to be comic book villains!

u/Dismalward [+1] (3 hours later)

Sounds like you are a fan of practical guide to evil!

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+2] Father of Learning (3 hours later)

AND IT'S BACK TONIGHT EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

u/RMcD94 [+0] (22 hours later)

If they are people then Zorian is immoral for allowing them all to repeatedly die. He should soul kill them all so they don't relive being invades

u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (a day later)

As the Guardian explained, from a certain point of view, the Gate's operation is indeed mass murder.

However, ZZ did not (as far as we know) cause it to happen, and can't readily stop the whole thing. They are attempting to save lives from the invasion in the best way they can.

(Besides, they don't even know how to eject souls from the loop. It might be associated with the dagger, in which case, they may well start using that power once they have it.)

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+1] Father of Learning (23 hours later)

What? They don't relive the same events over and over, they're brand new copies of the originals from the unchanged template the gate took at the start. It's like copy and paste. After you paste something you can do all sorts of things with it (like killing it via invasion) but when you click control V again it's still a whole new copy, independent of anything that has happened to the first copy.

Thus, Zorian would be stopping new being from being created by template-killing people, not saving anyone.

u/xachariah [-1] (5 hours later)

Are they not people just because their lives only last a month?

No, they are not people. The gods themselves looked at this question and decided it. In universe, that's literally as close as you can get to an objectively correct answer.

Also, remember that Zach and Zorian are trying to figure out how to stop the invasion. They could end every time loop before the mass-murder starts, but instead they try and figure out how to stop it and in doing so, condemn the entire city to be killed. Should they trigger the marker early every month, just so that kids won't get killed by war trolls?

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+6] Father of Learning (5 hours later)

??? They have souls, they have minds, they feel pain and other emotions. If that's true, Zorian is not a person.

Also, remember that Zach and Zorian are trying to figure out how to stop the invasion. They could end every time loop before the mass-murder starts, but instead they try and figure out how to stop it and in doing so, condemn the entire city to be killed. Should they trigger the marker early every month, just so that kids won't get killed by war trolls?

Well by resetting you're killing them anyway, so?

u/xachariah [+2] (5 hours later)

You don't see a difference between an instant reset nobody notices and and seeing your family being beaten to death by a war troll just before you die to artillery fire?

If there is a difference, then Z+Z should never allow the final day to go through, and never learn how to counter the invasion.

If there isn't a difference, then Z+Z should be fine to experiment on anyone they'd find useful, since clearly the gained information is worth the suffering if they're all going to disappear each month anyways.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+2] Father of Learning (5 hours later)

You think there's no difference between euthanasia and torture?

Well, I'd love to see that case brought before a judge.

u/xachariah [+4] (5 hours later)

????

It's okay for 10,000+ people be brutally murdered, but it's not okay to torture a handful of people to advance medical science? IDK what your morals are then.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+3] Father of Learning (6 hours later)

They're going to die painfully if you do nothing. That's different from torturing them. I don't know how you don't get this.

u/Nimelennar [+15] (an hour later)

What's the point of surviving if the consequence is becoming a worse monster than the ones you oppose?

The only thing that ZZ can take with them to the real world is themselves.

Do they really want the versions of themselves that return to reality to be ones with moral codes that they find repugnant?

u/kaukamieli [+5] (8 hours later)

The point is obviously to save the world. :s

Isn't it the ultimate sacrifice to let yourself become a monster to save everyone else?

Which one is worse? Becoming a monster or letting everyone die by the hands of massive monster gods themselves had to put away?

Not that it would be the story I'd want to read, though.

u/Dismalward [-3] (an hour later)

Then they are babies and stupid. It's not like such things would instantly turn them evil and as long as you aware of yourself then you don't need to continually do stuff outside the time loop. If they are aware they are like that sissy batman who can't kill some villian (thereby saving further victims) without turning evil then they are stupid and babies. i like this novel but I just pointing out that the so called evil acts would make things so much easier as long as they realize it was necessary. Sadly they are too squimish like Silverlake said which is disappointing because I find i more realistic that said morals would fuck you over in the REAL world more than helping you out.

u/Nimelennar [+15] (an hour later)

Would conducting a single immoral experiment on an unwilling human subject instantly turn them evil? No, of course not. Repeatedly doing that same kind of evil thing, on a month-to-month basis, for years? That would probably do it.

And if you think that makes them "stupid and babies," well, I sincerely hope that no one I care about is ever in a position dependent on your making the right moral decision.

u/None [+2] (2 hours later)

Just saying, they wouldn't need to do it continuously for years on end since the less ethical behaviors would provide results much faster.

I would agree that Zorian mind reading everyone willy-nilly would probably negatively affect him, but why would they make themselves do it instead of one of the people that would get reset every month?

They can literally hire mind mages and so on to do the heinous acts and not warp themselves as badly. They'd be the equivalent of generals that order troops to war of attrition because a it's a necessary act.

u/Nimelennar [+12] (2 hours later)

Just saying, they wouldn't need to do it continuously for years on end since the less ethical behaviors would provide results much faster.

They're talking about maximizing the rate of medical advancements. Much like how computers raised productivity without lowering the length of a workday, faster techniques wouldn't end the project sooner. They would find new unethical experiments to do on their subjects.

They can literally hire mind mages and so on to do the heinous acts

I thought we were talking about Silverlake's criticisms of their medical testing, but sure. Where would you hire mind mages willing to do such a thing? Preferably without letting them in on the secret of the loop?

u/None [+1] (3 hours later)

I missed making it clear that I was referring to their needs to get the items and not medical advancements.

They would find new unethical experiments to do on their subjects.

That's one fancy assumption you have there. You also assume they'll continue to do so just because instead of doing just what is needed. You know because they aren't morally evil characters.

I thought we were talking about Silverlake's criticisms of their medical testing, but sure. Where would you hire mind mages willing to do such a thing? Preferably without letting them in on the secret of the loop?

Nope, I was referring to the collection of items. Again, I didn't make it clear.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+2] Father of Learning (2 hours later)

They can literally hire mind mages and so on to do the heinous acts and not warp themselves as badly. They'd be the equivalent of generals that order troops to war of attrition because a it's a necessary act.

But it's not. It's clearly not. It's just more convenient. Fighting a war of attrition for convenience is an awful thing.

u/None [+2] (3 hours later)

How is it more convenient, if by all stated facts to the anecdote, the necessary act is going to happen regardless?

If someone has to gather knowledge from other mage's mind for them to accomplish some goal, why would they do it themselves instead of farming it out to someone else? It is very different ordering someone to commit an act than commit it yourself.

It's simply is not convenience, but instead it's the mitigation of damage to their moral constitution. As for finding mind mages, I'm assuming that mercenaries are a thing in this world and that favors, money, and magical knowledge (such as a gate or simulacrum spell) speak big (especially if the money can be provided upfront and magical knowledge acting as bait).

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+1] Father of Learning (3 hours later)

It is very different ordering someone to commit an act than commit it yourself.

Not ethically? What?

It's simply is not convenience, but instead it's the mitigation of damage to their moral constitution.

Bullshit! I hold a concentration camp commander to the same level of sin I hold the guards he orders.

u/None [+3] (4 hours later)

Just going to say this explicitly, I am not arguing that it'd be more ethical. I agree that it is very unethical in all respects and would hope that no one would do it.

However, I am arguing that the unethical actions we are implying are easier to have a proxy commit them than committing them oneself.

Bullshit! I hold a concentration camp commander to the same level of sin I hold the guards he orders.

First off, I agree. Second, they might be on the same (un)ethical level but the damage to ZZ's psyches are different.

Let's take torture as an arbitrary unethical action, ordering someone to be tortured is easier than torturing someone. The act of physically, or in this setting magically, going through with the action is very different from the perspective of the damage done to an agent's resistance to commit such an action than ordering a proxy to commit the action.

The act of using a proxy however makes them much more likely to normalize the ordering of such actions, that's the real crux of the issue.

Then we must ask ourselves, do we think that ZZ would do this continuously for every single problem over multiple restarts? I don't, Zorain at least would try other approaches first and leave this until the point they have little other choice or something of grave importance to him was at stake where he would lose his rational self. Zach on the other hand would give me pause, he is much less patient and expects results instantly.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (5 hours later)

It's an interesting question---torture by proxy would spare me from the psychic damage of torturing someone, but now I'm hiring people to perform morally bankrupt actions on my behalf. Do I risk acclimation?

I think if the process is wrapped up in a lot of red tape---for example, Zach, Alanic, Silverlake, and several others are present to assist in bearing the moral burden---then I feel in certain cases where they try to minimize suffering would be . . . doable without creating a habit. It's still bad though, but it's not true that the ends never justify the means, so . . .

u/Dismalward [+0] (an hour later)

And if you think that makes them "stupid and babies," well, I sincerely hope that no one I care about is ever in a position dependent on your making the right moral decision.

Now you are making this entire thing personal where I actually find this behavior both childish and stupid. Good day to you sir and I hope you can read on this in the future and reflect on what you said.

u/RMcD94 [+1] (22 hours later)

Yeah and their knowledge too. If they find one cure that saves one person in the real world isn't it worth it?. Just precommit to not kill people irl

u/Nimelennar [+3] (a day later)

These are still real people in the time loop. The consequences are time-limited, but real, to both ZZ and the loopers.

If someone is sentenced to death, is it still immoral to torture that person? Of course it is, even though there won't be any lasting consequences for that person pay their death. Why? Because it's immoral to torture people!

Can exceptions be made, due to exigent circumstances (e.g. an impending invasion about to release an unkillable horror, massacre millions, and trap their souls to be used to power wraith bombs)? Sure. But that doesn't mean ZZ should let those exceptions become the rule, by telling themselves that these aren't real people that would be suffering. They are real people, and their suffering would also be real.

Humans are very good at rationalization, at justifying our deeds once the deed is done. Better to not get into the habit of doing things that require you to think, "Well, it was okay this time, because..."

Nasty habits like that, of doing horrible things and justifying them as "not actually that bad" and "for a good cause," they're the hardest habits to break, because breaking them means admitting that you might actually have become a bad person, and that's something that very few people can bring themselves to do.

u/RMcD94 [+1] (a day later)

Or when torturing one person saves five

u/Nimelennar [+3] (a day later)

I'm not going to argue that torture can never, under any circumstance, be justified. I'm sure I could even come up with a scenario myself where it's justifiable (e.g. lives in danger, a ticking clock, a hypothetical form of torture that's actually effective at extracting information, the bomber in custody, and no other leads). But on the whole, it isn't. Not even when the ends is "to save lives." Because the world is complicated, and you can't plot out all of the consequences of your actions. You might not be saving any lives at all, because you could accomplish your goal by different means, or you could save five lives but the cost is a hundred more when the family of the person you've tortured vows revenge. Or you could end up with a keen supporter of torture as the chief of your intelligence agency, even when no one can point to a single life saved by the torture in question.

Now, the fact that they're in a time loop, and the typical consequences don't apply, and they can actually empirically verify that lives are being saved through the torture, does screw around with the equation here. I have to admit that those scenarios I might construct, where torture is an acceptable means to achieve an end, can be constructed a lot more easily within the Conqueror's Gate.

But the rule should still be "no torture whatsoever," with every argument being made against it until it's clear there's no other way to accomplish the goal in question, that the ends are worth such a means, and that the ends will be effectively accomplished throughout the torture. A last resort even among all the tactics of last resort.

Because torture is something hideous, and its consequences to its victims, to society, and to the torturers themselves, are equally hideous, and should be avoided at (almost) all costs.

u/RMcD94 [+1] (a day later)

You can literally torture people you know are going to otherwise be tortured in the loop and who otherwise you wouldn't save.

There is no downside to this.

Zach and Zorian are not doing anything to stop all the ongoing torture or torture-equivalent.

Besides which I don't know why human experimentation = torture but whatever.

Because torture is something hideous, and its consequences to its victims, to society, and to the torturers themselves, are equally hideous

The only relevant impact being the last two, and the consequence to society could be Zach and Zorian curing cancer the minute they step out.

u/Nimelennar [+2] (a day later)

You can literally torture people you know are going to otherwise be tortured in the loop and who otherwise you wouldn't save.

There is no downside to this.

Zach and Zorian are not doing anything to stop all the ongoing torture or torture-equivalent.

Oh, for the love of...

There is absolutely a moral difference between not acting to stop something evil and being an active participant in that evil.

Besides which I don't know why human experimentation = torture but whatever.

Ethical human experimentation isn't. And, in fact, this loop would present the opportunity for the perfect controlled clinical trial: get the double-blind right, and with exactly the same patient, disease progression etc., the only variable would be the treatment.

I doubt they're talking about the ethical kind of experimentation, though. Otherwise, they could figure out a way to do it legally. The impression I got was that Silverlake was pushing for more dubious stuff. Google "unethical malaria experiments" if you want your faith in humanity cracked a little further.

The only relevant impact being the last two, and the consequence to society could be Zach and Zorian curing cancer the minute they step out.

The people in the loop are people, and their pain matters.

The people in the loop are people, and their pain matters.

Besides, whoever steps out of that loop is going to be an archmage. Zach might even have a plausible claim to the Imperial Throne (especially if he gets his hands on the five artifacts outside of the loop). Do you really want your über-powerful archmage Emperor to be the kind of person who has become okay with callously causing pain and death "for the greater good?" Or that such a person couldn't easily cause more pain and death in his lifetime than cancer ever could?

u/RMcD94 [+1] (a day later)

There is absolutely a moral difference between not acting to stop something evil and being an active participant in that evil.

That's completely up to what moral system you prescribe to.

Utilitarianism is pretty standard for rational communities

u/Nimelennar [+2] (a day later)

I think that utilitarianism is a fine moral system, given the ability to predict, with reasonable accuracy, the consequences of your actions. Individual humans, in my opinion, generally don't have enough good data to make those decisions, nor the detached, unbiased perspective necessary to determine all of the probable effects of their actions, even with sufficient data.

I want my government to be utilitarian. It (ideally) has the data and processing power to effectively make that work. I want the people around me to have a moral code created through utilitarianism, which probably wouldn't be utilitarian itself (short of massively expanding the human brain's storage and processing power, and correcting its natural logic). It'd probably be a series of simple rules that our pathetic brains can understand and adhere to, starting with "Question everything, including the rules of this moral code." I can't say for certain what the other rules would be (as I don't consider my predictive power anywhere near sufficient to approach functional utilitarianism), but I imagine "Thou shalt not torture" would make the list.

On an individual basis, which is what I was referring to in the text you quoted, the thought patterns for "Do this bad thing" and "Let this bad thing happen" are much different, which is what I mean by saying that they're morally quite different. And since thought patterns reinforce themselves the more that they are used, if I were writing this story and could therefore predict all of the consequences of the characters' actions, I would consider the utilitarian thing to do would be not to have the characters reinforce the pathways which allow them to ignore pain that they are deliberately causing (or to only do so to the minimum extent necessary to escape the loop and save the world).

u/RMcD94 [+1] (a day later)

The good thing is that Zorian and Zach have the unique ability to practically test most of their actions.

Also I have never met someone who has thought that optimising morality could be done with a different system for different beings.

u/Nimelennar [+2] (a day later)

Isn't that basically the entire premise of The Metropolitan Man?

Lois tries to convince Superman to spend every hour of his every day improving life for everyone else, when she is unwilling to make such a commitment herself, because his abilities give him the power to accomplish so much more good by the use of his time than she can. Luthor thinks that Superman is obliged to kill himself because there's a miniscule chance that he snaps and decides to massacre humanity, which, even on average, outweighs all of the good he might possibly do.

I would never try to teach a dog utilitarianism, but I can teach the dog to be friendly and obedient to his owner, which, given a dog's abilities, is about the best I can do, and, given a morally good owner, should be functionally equivalent.

A dog should be taught the best moral code a dog might be able to adhere to, a human should be taught the best moral code a human might be able to adhere to, and a being or system with superhuman understanding should be able to adhere to a higher standard of morality yet. And the highest standard, for an omniscient being, is bound to be some form of utilitarianism.

Asking a dog to follow a human moral code is a task where all you can expect is frustration, and asking a (present-day) human, with all the inherent flaws that implies, to follow a code of perfect utilitarianism is no different.

Until we can transcend these bodies, in which hurting people for good reason will build habits, that could, in turn, lead to hurting people for no reason beyond those habits... Until we, to a person, learn to see past the self-delusion of moral superiority that colours every memory of our past deeds... Until we have the innate resources to inhabit a perfect moral code better then we can inhabit a custom-tailored one, we'll have to settle for an imperfect one, one that leverages our imperfections instead of ignoring them.

I can't see how it's in any way utilitarian to think otherwise.

u/RMcD94 [+1] (a day later)

Lois tries to convince Superman to spend every hour of his every day improving life for everyone else, when she is unwilling to make such a commitment herself,

But being unwilling doesn't mean she thinks that she is in the right.

Also depending on her ability to improve the lives of other peoples its perfectly conceivable that your effort you put in could not be adequate enough for a net utility gain though Lois as a first worlder probably could easily do so. If Lois ever said that superman has a moral obligation and she doesn't because they don't even fall under the same moral system and there is no context in which she can compare their morality then I missed that bit.

Luthor thinks that Superman is obliged to kill himself because there's a miniscule chance that he snaps and decides to massacre humanity, which, even on average, outweighs all of the good he might possibly do.

Again this is consistent. Luther thinks that extinction is worth infinite value. Therefore nothing Superman would be a net utility. They are both operating under the same system just with a different evaluation of utility.

I would never try to teach a dog utilitarianism, but I can teach the dog to be friendly and obedient to his owner, which, given a dog's abilities, is about the best I can do, and, given a morally good owner, should be functionally equivalent.

Well of course not but that's because if you personally are a utilitarian you want other people to maximise utility, not to be utilitarians. Those are two closely aligned but separate considerations.

Wait a second what on earth was I saying in my previous comment? Even egoists would not want everyone to be egoists they'd want everyone to care nothing for themselves at everything for the sole egotist.

u/Nimelennar [+2] (a day later)

Well of course not but that's because if you personally are a utilitarian you want other people to maximise utility, not to be utilitarians. Those are two closely aligned but separate considerations.

There we go. That's what I'm saying, only I'm going a step further removed. I am insufficient to the task of utilitarianism, so, for utilitarian considerations, I want to outsource the utilitarianism to someone or something that is up to the task (which would produce higher utility than being a utilitarian myself), so that I can adopt a moral code that will maximize utility.

Of course, finding/creating the ultimate utilitarian is the hard bit, and ensuring it optimizes for the correct values is even harder.

u/zconjugate [+1] (2 days later)

Just precommit to not kill people irl

That's something people have limited capacity to do. If you torture people all the time in the time loop, you will probably come to think of torture as normal and not even see why you were so against it.

u/RMcD94 [+1] (2 days later)

Maybe I remembered wrong but aren't there compulsions you can put yourself under so you wouldn't ever do so?

u/Nic_Cage_DM [+10] (2 hours later)

They still remember the things they do, torturing and experimenting on people has a hefty weight on your own psyche.

u/Addarash1 [+13] (2 hours later)

I like this novel but this honestly has to be one of my biggest peeves with it. Clearly they don't care enough about people in the loops to go around trying to save all the people in Cyoria every time, so if they are operating according to moral concerns they should be doing whatever is necessary to escape the loop and ensure an optimal future. Not being willing to go even in the slightest outside their comfort zone is neither pragmatically moral or selfish. It's just self-handicapped squeamishness.

u/Dismalward [+4] (4 hours later)

Exactly

u/FlameSparks [+3] (7 hours later)

There is a difference between letting things happen and doing things yourself.
Its basically the train ethical dilemma. I know personally I wouldn't be able to switch the tracks to save three lives if it meant kill one person.
I firmly believe good cannot be achieved with evil acts. My morals are my soul.

u/PM_ME_CUTE_FOXES [+1] (2 days later)

How do you reconcile "good cannot be achieved with evil acts" with "it would be good if I saved these three guys?"

u/FlameSparks [+1] (2 days later)

Because it would cause the death of one person? I understand the need of the many over the need of the one but I find a problem with the ends justify the means as how you do something influence what that something becomes. Your actions become you if you do them often enough and it has to start from somewhere.

There is also a point of the fact Consequentialism looks at the whole, for example what if Zorian had to sacrifice his whole family in a blood ritual to save the Nation. By the needs of the many over the needs of the few, he has to do it. I know its an extreme example but that is generally how you discover where your ethics lie.

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (10 days later)

Happy Australia birthday!

(I don't know your timezone, but it's April 20 here.)

u/xamueljones [+1] My arch-enemy is entropy (10 days later)

Thanks. I'm in the east coast of the US, so it's still April 19th for me.

I'm looking forward to Crystal Eternity coming out tomorrow as a birthday present to myself!

u/Laser68 [+15] (20 minutes later)

So all that background information gathering, and he gets so damn close but no cigar. Quatach Ichl comes to a hilarious conclusion then goes berserk.

u/I-want-pulao [+11] (30 minutes later)

They still gained a lot (by knowing where the wardstone is, and just the divine energy tracker being defeated by going far enough is on its own so worth it)

u/Laser68 [+5] (33 minutes later)

I meant Ichls background gathering, not zorian and zachs

u/I-want-pulao [+2] (4 hours later)

Oh right that makes sense. To be fair to QI the truth is rather outlandish.

u/Dismalward [+1] (46 minutes later)

Well he still screwed up their plans as they had to cut a restart short that i hope they collected information/journals from others before the theft just incase things went south. He also may have cut a few restarts down if the soul damage is very bad

u/None [+13] (an hour later)

[deleted]

u/thrawnca [+10] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)

what about training methods that prevent this from occurring such as harmless pranks on friends or willing participants who agree to the practice?

What is the purpose of training a skill that Zorian thinks he should not use?

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+8] (5 hours later)

I think we're arguing that the skill is extremely worthwhile for limited scenarios and thus worth training.

To give a somewhat contrived example, say Eldemar is trying to exercise eminant domain over some shifter territory. I could buy the shifter group time to muster a more permanent legal solution or otherwise broker a better deal if I could magically compel several officials to delay or drop the case outright. My point is that there are instances where the ability would allow for a more moral outcome---and some of us argue that there may be ways to practice the skill that would not push Zorian's moral boundaries very far.

u/Dismalward [+3] (2 hours later)

Your thinking makes sense that I cannot see why Zorian hasn't tried it earlier. Maybe it the author's way of not making them overpowered by making them squeamish and have them immediately reject the idea so it cannot be used to bypass a problem he wants solved another way.

u/eSPiaLx [+1] (3 hours later)

one factor you're forgetting about though, is zorian killed and mindraped enemies. Ok well the main exception being the aranea tribes he practiced on. Animal rights? Still, this too could have been dealt with by merely having zorian restrict his practicing on aranea tribes who tried to kill him first.

There's a big difference between attacking cultists who are trying to destroy his home/aranea who prey on humans. Also I'd also argue that medical experiments on the cultists is pretty fucked up too, simply because of how long the torture lasts. Like how there'd be a difference between executing a man and having him die by slow torture/starvation.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (5 hours later)

To play devil's advocate: They could put the test subjects in a stupor either medicinally or through mind magic.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+11] (3 hours later)

Regarding compulsion mind magic:

Morally speaking, I wouldn't have an issue with learning the skill. I would practice mostly on animals, which I really dislike animal experimentation, but I think the situation justifies it. (If you think the ends never justifies the means, I believe you're incorrect but let's discuss it.)

I would practice doing things like compelling birds to once a day chirp at my window if they are nearby (so they aren't compelled to leave their home it they usually live elsewhere), or having a friend say "Zach smells funny" every time they see me, and other relatively benign things---with consent of course.

If learning the skill involved breaking minds, I would start with cultists and have them report news to me or something. I would eventually practice having cultists sabotage things on the day of the invasion. Imagine several hundred cultists each with a small explosive device from Zorian who could, for example, destroy key parts of the invasion. It would be very useful and could save a lot of lives---even cultist lives if the logistics of the invasion were sufficiently disrupted to make them give up.

Outside the loop, it would be useful for dealing with baddies in a way where nobody dies and people just go to jail, though Zorian can kind of do that now in a limited sense, he could probably do it more effectively. I think there are unique uses for the skill that would be invaluable and not require Zorian to injure his moral compass, which is a sentiment I do appreciate.

I think a major issue with learning the discipline is that Zorian hasn't found a teacher and few Aranea even know how to do it and fewer still would be willing to admit they know how.

u/MaybeEvilWizard [+8] (3 hours later)

I'm betting QI exploded his soul so that he would fuse some of his soul fragments into Zack or Zorian. Zack is going to be in the clear probably because of how sensitive his marker is, but Zorian's going to have a sizable portion of QI stuck inside him.

I bet QI thinks his soul fragments might be enough to take over Zorians soul and make Zorian more like him. His way of vicariously surviving despite the fact that this isn't the real world.

On the plus side, Zorian might get more mana and some ancient Lich magical powers assuming he manages to keep his personality intact.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+5] (3 hours later)

Hehe we had similar ideas mere minutes apart. The fallout would be really bizarre if either Zorian or Zach get affected in that way . . .

u/ceegheim [+9] (21 hours later)

What a pity, I would so much have hoped for a possible long term understanding between ZZ and QI.

I mean, if ZZ manage to escape the timeloop, then it is in QI's best interest to peacefully cancel the invasion, before it is discovered (if Eldemar is not crushed, then the backlash is not worth the hassle; and ZZ can damage QI's plan enough to become counterproductive). If they can get QI to abort the invasion peacefully once out of the timeloop, then it is in their interest to do this. Hence, QI has an interest in providing ZZ with contact info and proof that would be convincing to QI, and ZZ have an interest (in the real world) of using it.

If ZZ manage to escape, then QI has an interest in (1) obtaining time-loop info and more importantly (2) having a workable relationship and trust-base with the new ZZ power in the world. Their acquired knowledge (Bakora gate information, where to find the imperial artifacts) is priceless, even for QI. He can put good probability to them becoming important long-term players that might be more amenable to lobbying for a peace treaty (which is the thing QI wants to achieve with the invasion). I could even imagine him taking on Zorian as an apprentice and future Lich, post-timeloop and once Zorian is close to death.

On the other hand, ZZ emerging successfully from the loop without a working relationship with QI is his nightmare scenario. Hence, his preferences should be:

(1) Subvert the timeloop [too unlikely to pursue], (2) see ZZ fail to escape, (3) have ZZ escape from the timeloop with QI's help and (4) have ZZ escape from the loop against QI.

ZZ's preference order should be 3,4,2,1.

Both parties prefer 3 to 4, so there is room for trade/trust, but not easily due to the possibility of QI betraying ZZ or being less helpful than he appears to be. Also, there is an issue of haggling: How much knowledge do ZZ transfer across loops for QI, or otherwise trade him? How much knowledge that could be used against him is QI willing to divulge to ZZ? This is interesting! (but apparently not happening)

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+3] (22 hours later)

Great analysis. I'd rather set ZZ's preferece order as 4,3,2,1. ZZ have vocalized how they completely disagree with QI's approach. Not only that, but I feel both of them believe QI is too dangerous and wiley to cultivate a longterm cooperative relationship with. Their priorities ought to be:

0. Exit the loop and survive.
1. Halt the invasion.
2. Find a way to end QI permanently.
3. Barring ending QI, find a diplomatic solution.

Outcome-wise, this is your 4,3,2,1.

Unforunately, option 3: cooperation is so unstable. QI knows that ZZ don't trust him and he would probably admit that given the opportunity, he would betray them. After all, QI very plainly said to them at the initial meeting that he believes in maintaining power and peace through the threat of violence and so ZZ feel if QI could eventually find a way to remove the threat of ZZ, he would choose to do so---they're forced to assume that if QI is given enough time to conspire, he would eventually choose a zero-sum solution.

QI realizes he cannot convincingly promise an option 3 even if that would be the best option for everyone, so all that is left for him is option 2---do his best to prevent ZZ from escaping. And if he fails? Well, ZZ exit the loop and stop the invasion. Even in that case, QI may still survive to fight another day if ZZ can't within the loop reliably figure out how to destroy QI's phylactery.

If the above is QI's calculus, then I can see why he would choose to detonate himself, likely inducing a coma, death, or otherwise scarring them in a way he might be able to notice if they try to negotiate with him in subsequent loops. I do agree with you, though, that an alliance would be a lot of fun to read about and it's a pity QI generally views alliances as temporary until one power outmaneovers the other.

u/ceegheim [+1] (a day later)

Not so sure. I think the only conflict between ZZ and QI is that Eldemar is hellbent on maintaining a state of cold war with QI, and QI has no moral restraints on stomping Eldemar into the ground, including civil population, if given the opportunity (which is provided by Sudomir's wraith-bombs). ZZ actually don't care about the war, otherwise than not wanting Eldemar invaded.

So yes, cooperation is unstable, but not catastrophically. Once QI's option of successfull invasion is removed, QI has no more interest in backstabbing ZZ and vice versa. On the other hand, QI views ZZ as interesting, and ZZ need an endgame for immortality post loop; lichdom doesn't seem so bad.

The real problem is that, within the loop, QI will tend to backstab ZZ if given an opportunity to reliably ensure that ZZ fail at 1.

So, let me give an example how they could ensure cooperation:

QI has several pretty good signature schemes prepared. The cooperation scheme works by QI signing (MACing) a message to himself, and ZZ transmitting this message across the timeloop. This message contains the terms of the treaty. No public key crypto is needed, because QI will have a secret book of symmetric keys prepared (possibly in his own mind!), from before the time-loop.

A treaty can also contain hidden terms / information, using Merkle hash trees:

Each valid signed message by QI is an offer of treaty. Post time-loop, ZZ can choose which message to relay, so QI needs to be very careful when signing. Trade can happen, e.g. by ZZ showing QI where the imperial ring is (for his collection), and then signing (as part of a complex treaty including conditionals) "We agreed that ZZ will show me where the ring is. The description of the location has hash xyzxyz; I personally verified the correctness of this information. Regards, QI." Then, post-loop, ZZ can trade specific morsels of info with QI, which QI has already verified in-loop.

ZZ and QI can also transmit information in an initially trustless fashion in the following way:

QI encrypts his message to self, and signs it. Then, ZZ encrypt this message, and incorporate it into the treaty. QI learns nothing from this; ZZ learn nothing from this; but if future QI and ZZ reach a higher level of trust, then this information has been preserved (and future QI can reveal it to ZZ, or future ZZ can reveal it to QI, with the revealing party learning nothing about the message).

Such information exchanges can be used fruitfully to search for an optimal cooperative solution: A way that ensures QI's peace treaty without damaging Eldemar. Once such a solution is found, if it exists, there is no conflict anymore. Hypothetical example: The fourth in line of succession of Eldemar is amenable to a peace treaty, if QI follows the correct negotiation strategy. Without the time-loop there is no way QI could figure this out; with the time-loop he can try out high-risk high-reward strategies like assassinating parts of the Eldemar leadership and offering a lot of concessions, until he finds a reliable-in-retrospect solution.

I understand why QI choose to bomb ZZ instead of negotiating; he was acting under time-pressure and with incomplete information, and probably optimally for his knowledge. I think it is a pity that ZZ did not think about attempting such a negotiation.

Now I want an omake of a serious QI/ZZ negotiation ;)

Also, such a meta-fic would fit perfectly into the lesswrong/rational-verse: It is reminiscent of simulator negotiating with an opaque simulatee, some of whose goals are known. Of course the negotiations / protocol-design would become simpler if public key crypto was available, but we cannot assume this.

u/Bighomer [+8] (14 hours later)

So, the "throw a magic coin at the ancient lich" strategy has now competition with the "convince QI that he's stuck in a primordial/god-made time loop and make him explode" strategy.

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (a day later)

No, that's not a viable attack method. Deliberately letting him know how he can meaningfully counterattack them is far too risky.

u/GodKiller999 [+7] (57 minutes later)

"Impractical," Zorian said simply. He didn't want to explain that his ability to control people was really quite limited. He may be a powerful mind mage, but he never invested much effort into figuring out how to execute those kinds of long-term compulsions. Even the aranea considered that kind of 'deep mind editing' to be sinister and repellent, to say nothing of himself. His specialty was telepathic combat and memory reading, not enslavement.

This is really a big mistake imo, god knows there's many things that could be accomplished with that kind of skillset, even if it was only used on deserving targets or when absolutely needed.

u/Nimelennar [+10] (an hour later)

That seems like the kind of skill, like interpreting aranea memories, that can only be perfected through practice, and Zorian has expressed that he didn't think he could do much more of that kind of practice without irreparably damaging his sense of right and wrong.

Edit: tpyo.

u/GodKiller999 [+5] (an hour later)

He can though? He's done so before when he destroyed dozens of minds to quickly learn how to memory probe. What he said he couldn't do was spend entire restarts going through thousands of minds (Araneans minds in this specific case) without becoming a monster.

u/Nimelennar [+10] (31 minutes later)

A soul detonation? Hope that it doesn't damage their own souls too much and cost them too many restarts.

u/None [+1] (2 hours later)

If it is soul detonation doesn't this mean that QI is dead though? He might survive due to lich shenanigans, but we all know that soul damage is soul damage.

u/thrawnca [+17] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)

QI gets a new soul every restart. Only the Controller(s)'s soul is reused.

u/sumeone123 [+9] (31 minutes later)

So does that final soul "suicide bomb" mean that Quatach-Ichl is going to be a vegetable for the remaining restarts? I can't imagine something like that being easy or quick to recover from.

u/I-want-pulao [+40] (39 minutes later)

No, I don't think that's how it works. Only the controller's souls are put back into their loop bodies, everyone else is killed.

(Otherwise everyone else would also notice their shaping skills improve!)

u/LordGoldenroot [+13] (41 minutes later)

Everything is completely reset when time restarts including souls unless they are specifically marked, and Quatach-Ichl's souls is not. Because of that Quatach-Ichl will be in perfect condition upon the start of the next loop.

u/RiOrius [+1] (4 hours later)

Wait, then what happened to the aranea? I thought Red Robe soulkilled them and that's what rendered them dead for future restarts?

u/LordGoldenroot [+14] (4 hours later)

Red Robe used a controller tool to exclude the aranea from the template and being recreated. The things he said about soul killing were only a bluff.

u/Nimelennar [+8] (4 hours later)

Suspected explanation is that RR took advantage of a feature of the time loop that allows the Controller to remove unwanted souls. Probably a function of the knife they just retrieved (and lost).

That's just Zorian's theory, though; we don't have anything concrete.

u/zzzyxas [+5] (an hour later)

Typo thread:

I'm just pointing out you'd get a lot more appreciation for your skills if you emigrated there," Quatach-Ichl shrugged.

Immigrated. Immigrate to, emigrate from.

u/bassicallyboss [+8] (2 hours later)

I agree that "immigrated" is probably more natural/common here. But while "emigrated" is unusual in this context, I don't think it's wrong, strictly speaking. It's all about whether the focus is on the place which is left (emigrate) or the destination (immigrate). I didn't even notice that Quatach-Ichl had said anything unusual when I read this part, but if I had, it would have seemed perfectly in-character for an articulate, millennia-old lich.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (4 hours later)

Maybe you're right, but I read this section and also felt it should be immigrate. The sentence in question can be expanded to read "if you emigrated [sic] to Ulquaan Ibasa". Immigrate to, emigrate from---and I justify it by looking at the prefixes. "In" means into and "ex" means out from.

I think that's the correct way of writing it because the prefix "in" means "into" whereas "ex" means "out of".

As for it being in-character, the fact that we're even having this discussion supports your statement really well. However, I think it was an author error and that it is better corrected than not; most readers who happen to notice the error will think of it as a typo rather than assume that it was intentional.

u/Karranor [+4] (7 hours later)

Immigrate to, emigrate from

According to the oxford dictionary, "emigrate to" is absolutely valid (they list the "full" form as "emigrate (from...) (to...) )

Example sentence given:

The family left Czechoslovakia in 1968 and emigrated to America.

In this case (this chapter) the full sentence would be "if you emigrated from here to there"

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+5] (8 hours later)

Thanks for taking the time to tell me!

u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)

was a table and some chairs/were a table and some chairs

the Shutur-Tarana/Shutur-Tarana

that was be/that would be

take as a week/take us a week

Even it's a time loop related skill, it is not/Even its time loop related skill, is not

may be good idea/may be a good idea

one at the time/one at a time

information your receive/information you receive

the details or what/the details of what

if I release it/if I release them

before he begun/before he began

to contacted/to contact

want you help us/want you to help us

were as priceless in the same way/were priceless in the same way

and all the money and mundane wealth/and had all the money and mundane wealth

the hammered out/they hammered out

the walls they were attached to/the walls it was attached to

All three of the started/All three of them started

spell into twisting/spell to twist

while they continue one/while they continued on

a marker than let/a marker that let

unloading everything they recovered into/loading everything they recovered into

a lot less expensive than/a lot less extensive than

then the fighting begun/then the fighting began

wards were through enough/wards were thorough enough

another enemy outside as well as then/another enemy outside as well as them

a wide-variety/a wide variety

within certain distance/within a certain distance

out ill-gotten gains/our ill-gotten gains

take out the anchor item out/take the anchor item out

it sounded so incredulous/it sounded so incredible

like these guards were/like those guards were

enfolding into/unfolding into

than began to overpower/that began to overpower

Soul magic has never been/Soul magic had never been

that we Zorian/that Zorian

when realized/when he realized

u/sambelulek [+2] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (3 hours later)

I wasn't aware repellent (adj.) has definition of 'causing disgust or distaste.' I am so used to term repulsive for that definition.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (4 hours later)

The two words actually come from the same root words! Interesting, huh?

https://i.imgur.com/rnl0pxM.png

https://i.imgur.com/1JQg6Cr.png

If you're wondering where I got this information from, here's how:

https://i.imgur.com/hhpo1PN.png

Click where my cursor is in that picture, scroll down, and you'll find the etymology (ie word origin). ;)

u/DerSaidin [+1] (a day later)

Not a typo, but...

Zorian had never really thought about it before, but Quatach-Ichl was probably the only living person that had seen Xlotic as it had been before the Cataclysm.

I guess thats ok with a broad definition of living.

u/Ace_Kuper [+1] (3 days later)

the sounds of distant screams and detonations started resounding in the distance, as if the treasury defenders were fighting another enemy outside as well as then

u/lanvkrum [+6] (3 hours later)

I like to think of MoL magic system as code, specially the soul magic field about markers and templates. I think QI soul bomb is a workaround against the Sovereign Gate loop, QI just hacked a mark on the timeloop to erase the template on his soul just as if it were SQL injection. This could be a pretty handy mechanism to protect oneself against loopers, as alternative to not engaging at all, I think ZZ souls are fine, but QI will be soul killed now and they won't learn more about him. It would be even cooler if all of their teachers are also wiped out of the time loop! A really nice and difficult situation for the story. Maybe that's why Demian wasn't included, the plot will need him for Blatyrre exploration.

u/eSPiaLx [+15] (3 hours later)

That almost definitely isn't the case. First of all consider that QI only had like 30 seconds of prep. Second, the marker is designed to avoid tampering.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+6] (4 hours later)

I also think of the magic (in any system honestly) as programming. While I think your theory has merit, I don't think it's the most stable way to program the loop mechanism.

In my mind, the Sovereign Gate keeps a template of every soul it needs to recreate every loop. At the end of every (while!) loop, the Gate grabs all souls marked as controllers, then goes through each soul in its template and recreates it---unless the soul has a "soulkill" marker on it. If that's the case, then it doesn't matter what happens to non-controller souls in the loop because those souls are always trashed at the end of the month anyhow. This method is more stable because you're treating most of your soul data immutable in the form of a template. (Think of data safety as described in the Haskell language.)

But yeah the Sovereign Gate program could work the way you mentioned. The Gate could inspect every soul in the loop, see if it has a "please replicate" marker, and only in that case make the replica. If QI destroyed his soul and thus destroyed that "please replicate" marker, then his soul detonation was a really good move. However, that would mean that certain types of soul mangling done within the loop would affect the souls in the next loop, which I feel the designers of the Gate would have wanted to avoid.

u/CrazyCrab [+2] (21 hours later)

Why haven't ZZ learned haste spell yet?

u/nobody103 [+12] (22 hours later)

They did, it just isn't as useful to them as it is to Quatach-Ichl. The haste spell allows you to burn mana in exchange for more actions, inefficiently trading mana endurance for a greater effect in the short term. That sort of move is a lot more useful for QI (who has a ton of mana to use) than it is for ZZ.

u/distrofijus [+2] (a day later)

Would it be possible for you to elaborate on some points of the story (if they are not going to be explained in the future):

1. "Since it was extremely difficult for a controller with an intact marker to unlock their soul perception through classical means, it made sense for the Shutur-Tarana to prepare a workaround for his successor." The story so far was that Shutur-Tarana established an empire. Does this imply that Sovereign Gate was actually created by him (he was actual god who decided to establish empire just for fun or whatever, not the person who discovered old relic).
2. Any particular reason for Z&Z not to put the golems into the orb (or any other opposing factions). It's a huge walking prison/temporary, useful detainment/sorting facility.
3. Why Z&Z didn't bring like 10-20-50-100-200 golems into the fight/ambush for QI?
4. While the QI is very very powerful, Xvim is actual defense based archmage. It takes him brief moment to re-establish his non-structural magic defense. Also you've explained that mind blank is unnatural state and it can be dispelled. However it can be also said that there's a resemblance to the reason why dispel spell does not extinguish fire caused by fire spell (mind blank is sort of disconnect from great physic net in the same fashion as holding one's breath). Spell allows to achieve that state, but it goes beyond that and to remove unnatural state target needs to be affected in the way that it would revert unnatural state (like start breathing in surprise). Xvim offered very little resistance.
5. Souls were supposed to be indestructible. The last stunt QI pulled kinda suggest that you can do pretty much anything to soul (it is like hologram - if you break it up, every tiny fragment contains the same image). It is very close to blurring the line between mangling the soul beyond recognize and actually destroying the soul

u/nobody103 [+9] (a day later)

1. No, Shutur-Tarana was not a god. The imperial artifacts were clearly made with the help of a god, but the first emperor probably had a lot of input into what his fancy set of magical tools would do and look like.

2-3) It takes time for Zorian to make golems. He mostly ran out of them by the time they fought against QI.

4. It takes just a moment for Xvim to re-establish his usual mental defenses, but those defenses aren't mind blank. They cannot stand up to QI's attack. Because the disconnect from the psychic net is so unnatural to mind, they immediately snap back to their natural state when the magic forcing them is gone.

5. They are. They have an indestructible core and an outer layer that is crucial for a person's existence but can be destroyed or modified. I don't want to explain what QI actually did, since it is slightly spoilerish, but he did not violate these principles in any way.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+2] Father of Learning (2 days later)

I don't want to explain what QI actually did, since it is slightly spoilerish, but he did not violate these principles in any way.

If he tried to forceably form a soul bond with them in an attempt to screw them up I'm going to interpret that as a romantic advance and become a Zorian/QI shipper

u/SevereCircle [+2] (4 days later)

I'm going to interpret that as a romantic advance and become a Zorian/QI shipper

Not Quatach-Ichl/Xvim? Start over.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+4] Father of Learning (an hour later)

YES! CALLED IT! THEY'RE GOING TO WAKE UP WITH LIKE 1 RESTART LEFT AND IT'S GOING TO BE A RACE AGAINST TIME FOR REALZIES I FUCKING CALLED IT!

u/thrawnca [+14] Carbon-based biped (an hour later)

Impossible. They have to find the Key piece on Blantyrre. Just getting there is expected to take an entire restart; the plan is to grab a Bakora Gate key so that they can reach it next restart with enough time to actually work. Getting that piece within the same month they first arrive? No way.

u/Dismalward [+1] (2 hours later)

Maybe they'll find a way to locate the final artifact by capturing 4 of them? It's certainly not impossible they can have all 5 keys as long as they play out the restart perfectly and somehow find the last key before the restart ended.

u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)

They already have a headstart in locating the artefact, but a couple of days - which is all they would have - just isn't enough time to reliably find it, let alone break its defences.

u/sambelulek [+3] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (3 hours later)

This is actually a really interesting path for the story to develop. But I'm sure the author won't take it, for the challenge it posed is insurmountable.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+13] Father of Learning (4 hours later)

ah, but if he does this they'll discover the true magic was inside them all along!

u/sambelulek [+11] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (4 hours later)

what, dimensionalism magic powered by love? what kind of magic was that?

LOLOLOL

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+15] Father of Learning (5 hours later)

I will always remember the line from The Seventh Horcrux

"For instance," I said. "The moral of The Fountain of Fair Fortune is that the magic was within you all along. The moral of The Warlock's Hairy Heart is that you shouldn't care what anyone else thinks of you. And the moral of The Tale of the Three Brothers is that you should be invisible at all times."

Hermione frowned at me, as she often does. "That isn't the moral at all. It's that you can't cheat death."

"Really, Hermione? Did you even read the tale? It clearly states that the youngest brother spends his entire life under an invisibility cloak, only taking it off when he wanted to die. I'm not sure why he would have wanted that, though," I mused, pulling my cloak tightly around my shoulders.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (5 hours later)

On a scale of 1 to Mother of Learning, how would you rate that fanfiction? Should I read it?

Also, check out The Arithmancer! It's a great Hermione fanfic. :)

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+10] Father of Learning (6 hours later)

Read it, and Hermione became a Mary Sue in Lady Archimedes and I honestly couldn't go on when she kept making up excuses for not winning the war in 10 minutes.

The Seventh Horcrux is the single funniest thing I have ever read in my entire life. Nothing has ever come close. That is not sarcasm, 100% earnest. On rereading it I occasionally laugh myself into tears. God, Voldemor's "inner circle" after being purged "of spies and traitors" consists of Sirius Black (no, it's like canon where he was never a death eater, it's hilarious but complicated), Snape, and Hagrid (who nobody bothered rescuing from Azkaban after the second book so he got broken out along with the death eaters)

Edit: oh god, or when he gives Hermione "The Talk." And by that I mean the "Evil Overlord Talk."

sometimes there are going to be boys who are rich, attractive, funny, and whom you're going to want to, more than anything, crush beneath your heel.

I don't like Malfoy! He's a git and an idiot!

of course he's an idiot, he's 15! But someday he's going to look back and realize what an idiot he was as he lays prostrate before you

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (6 hours later)

Lmao great, I have a new story to read then. Any other recommendations? Ad Infinitum is another one that sticks out for me. I'm trying to think how to describe it without spoilers---Riddle finds a magical timeglass. Check it. :)

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+4] Father of Learning (6 hours later)

There's The Evil Overlord list by /u/boomvroomshroom, very dark humor but enjoyable nonetheless

There's Inquisitor Carrow and the God-Emperorless Heathens for the Harry Potter/40k crossover (I found it hilarious but its mainly for people who think wizards losing their shit at servo-skulls is funny)

There's When in Doubt, Obliviate, a fun romp about Harry being raised by Lockheart

Spock Unleashed for 20th century star trek fans

Daily Prophet My Ass for something that will make you laugh yet can complete in 10 minutes

So Not My Problem/The Jedi Kind of had it Coming for the KOTOR fans out there

Food Scandal for a short adventure from the Empire's perspective in Star Wars

and we come to a close with a "wizards learn how dangerous guns are via bullet holes" fic in Divided and Entwined.

its nearly 3am so i think i should stop here

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+3] (6 hours later)

Thanks! KOTOR is an unexplored fic-verse for me. Can't wait to read these!

u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (8 hours later)

For those whose timezone is not 3am, there's Harry the Hufflepuff. He knows his goals and he sticks to them!

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+1] Father of Learning (13 hours later)

Book 4 just came out!

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (5 hours later)

And that the entire thing was all just a bad dream~

u/icesharkk [+1] (6 hours later)

Think back to the uncomfortable pressure red time imposed on the story when he was still active. The time pressure of 42 months wasn't enough.

I fully expect only one of them to wake up and have 3 or fewer restarts left. Remember the author has started this is the last book in mol. Playing it the remaining 30 loops with be tedious without a time skip. And this time skip had the benefit of panicking the reader.

u/Dismalward [+2] (a minute later)

Nice was just checking up on it! Love me a new chapter!

Edit: Maybe Red Robe left the loop because not only of the new time travelers but the disappearance/soul kill of spider made the lich more suspicious of him. Damn Red Robe must have been quite capable to be able to deal with the lich without being easily enslaved with just one wrong move.

u/mynameisdis [+1] (6 hours later)

I think Quatach-Ichl may have been trying to brute force his soul into the time loop kind of like how Zorian ended up joining it after he and Zach were hit by a soul magic attack. If he succeeded, shit just got super real.

u/icesharkk [+8] (6 hours later)

That's boring though. It's the plot equivalent of red Robe 2: the lichening. We already had a third looper big bad.

I think the boys won't be waking up until there are fewer than 5 loops left. Better hurry boys, there ain't no pressure like time pressure.

u/The_Magus_199 [+2] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (a day later)

Ehhh, to be fair, Red Robe never did really get used to his full potential, since he left the loop basically right after the end of act one. Now, QI as RR 2.0 wouldn’t be interesting since he could just hunt down Zorian and Zach at the start of the loop and murder them, but I am sad that the third looper big bad never actually got to go fully into a game of cat and mouse with Zorian having to fiddle around while trying to make the ripples in such a way that they obscure the source.

u/zolnir [+1] (8 hours later)

What are the chances that Quatach-Ichl had switched bodies with Xvim?

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+2] (8 hours later)

Possible?

• Structured spell---if such a spell existed, I bet QI could do it.
• The author specifically said Xvim seemed very calm after the mental attack.
• QI could have used a structured compulsion spell on Xvim-inside-of-QI to force him to act "normal".

But now that the loop is over, I doubt there would be any lasting effects by possessing Xvim.

u/zolnir [+1] (8 hours later)

Of course there is a point, or QI wouldn't bother doing it in the first place. I'm expecting QI to somehow inhabit Xvim's body now through every loop, so our Z & Z may be operating with a mole in their midst without ever realizing it. Hell, QI even has an advantage because Zach aside, Zorian was caught up in the soul corroding attack. He may be out for several loops, just enough for QI to perfect his disguise and master being Xvim.

Even if we suppose that QI doesn't have the memories of this loop, waking up in Xvim's body in the next loop will still prompt him to find answers. It is inevitable that he will learn everything, which means that Z & Z finally has a real threat since the departure of Red - can they stop QI from leaving the loop too?

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+9] (8 hours later)

Oh, I agree there would be massive benefit to inhabiting Xvim. However, from what we know about souls and the Sovereign Gate, I don't see how your theory would be possible. The Sovereign Gate destroys all unmarked souls at the end of every loop and recreates everything from a template. I don't see how doing a soul switch in one loop would affect the next. Otherwise wouldn't Sudomir's soulwell get more and more full every loop and thus render more and more people soulless at the beginning of ever loop?

Do you think in that split second, QI figured out a workaround to all that? I don't, but I guess it's possible and it would definitely be interesting.

u/zolnir [+2] (8 hours later)

Perks of living for over a thousand years, I guess. To be honest I think QI is an extremely interesting character whose perspective should be explored much more - but in a separate spin-off maybe.

u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (9 hours later)

I agree completely. Liches fascinate me.

u/dbenc [+1] (2 days later)

Odds on QI joining the time loop?

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