41 KiB
Opinion of self-insert fanfiction?
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Author: u/Ih8Otakus *
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URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/8b44h1/opinion_of_selfinsert_fanfiction/
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Score: 34
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Created: 2018-04-10T02:11:38
Post:
A self-insert fanfiction is a story where a character or "self-insert" is inputted into a fictional setting of a preestablished fictional universe for which the character has omniscient knowledge of. Using their knowledge of the past, present, and future, the self-insert has to adapt to the fictional setting they were placed in. In self-insert fanfiction the SI is usually placed in the setting by a ROB(Random Omnipotent Being), reincarnated, or my preferred option, inexplicably transmigrated.
Most self-insert fanfiction can be deemed irrational. Self-insert fanfiction has a tendency to delve into wish fulfillment, SI's ignoring glaring canon plots he should not be able to avoid, SI's easily becoming overpowered compared to their fictional protaginists/antagonists, and SI's focusing on romance rather than solving canon problems of the fictional world.
Is there any well-done self-insert fanficton that can be deemed rational? I have found two.
With This Ring by Mr Zoat Set in the DC universe, the SI find himself awake at the moon in his pajamas with an orange power ring. He uses his preexisting knowledge of the DC universe to his fullest advantage. 1.1 million words and still ongoing.
Kaleidoscope Set in the naruto universe, the SI is reincarnated to the infamous Uchiha clan. He knows the culling is coming and he must do everything he takes to survive it. A warning for this one. The first book is very rational and you can stop there if you are not in love with the naruto universe. The sequel is more fluff. Complete.
If anyone has any other suggestions please let me know. I also reccomend Worth the candle but we all know of it and its a very unique case. The MC is basically an SI in his own original universe. It has most of the qualities of a self-insert fanfiction but the reader knows nothing about the fictional universe which makes it so special. It's a mystery for everyone including him.
Comments:
u/Nimelennar [+37] (an hour later)
Like all rules of writing, I think the rule "Don't write self-insert fiction" is subject to the following caveats:
- Any rule can be broken, if the writer is good enough.
- Unless you can articulate the reason why the rule shouldn't be broken, why your story doesn't run afoul of that reason, and why your story needs that rule to be broken, you're probably not good enough.
- The vast majority of writers aren't able to pass that test, and you're likely to be in the vast majority.
That said, some of the best fiction out there is the stuff that breaks the rules. Someone has to be on the leading edge when a cyclic trope cycles back, and they're generally lauded for it.
I think HPMOR is a very good self-insert fiction; WtC skates a little too close to wish-fulfillment for my liking; Stephen King's self-inserts are really freaking weird but don't quite break suspension of disbelief, and pretty much every other SI I've read has been written by someone who shouldn't have broken the rule.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (3 hours later)
So...was With This Ring in the "shouldn't have broken the rule" category? Or have you not read it?
u/Nimelennar [+2] (9 hours later)
I haven't read either story mentioned, so my comment wasn't meant to be a judgement on either story. I'll probably get around to WTR eventually, but "1.1 million words and still ongoing" is not a project that I want to undertake at the moment. That's about the length of the entire HP series, or the first four ASOIAF books.
I probably won't be reading Kaleidoscope at all; Naruto is not one of my fandoms.
u/thrawnca [+6] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
"1.1 million words and still ongoing" is not a project that I want to undertake at the moment.
:D You're behind the times. It updates over a thousand words a day. Best estimates at this point are about 2.25 million, and when complete, it will be something like 10.
u/SoylentRox [+2] (2 days later)
With this Ring has good and bad points.
The good : it's arguably fairly rational fiction. The author tries to accurately model the crazy mix of magic, schizo tech, and flat out power rings that is the DC verse. Villains who shouldn't be able to harm a guy with a power ring - like the Joker - get arrested like kittens.
The bad is that it's really, really long, and a lot of the content is semi filler. Really it does have regular bits of drama and action, it's nothing as bad as Robert Jordan books, but it still starts to drag.
The final problem is that it's full of comic references and story references and moderately difficult to follow if you haven't read the comics.
u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
I haven't read any of the comics, and only recently began watching some of the Young Justice TV series, and although I'm sure I've missed references, I've still quite enjoyed WtR.
it still starts to drag
I guess YMMV. I agree it's very long, but it's pretty action-packed nevertheless. Probably something to do with the speed of updates; there are chapters that would feel like a let-down if they were a month apart, but with them arriving every day, it can get away with being long.
u/k-k-KFC [+2] (3 days later)
I read a bit of it but dropped it when it seemed to be MC within minutes of being with anyone else with powers knows all the flaws with how they utilize their skills and imparts knowledge of what they should do and then that character does it and grows or gets defensive/angry and then something bad happens and they realize their mistakes.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (4 days later)
Eh, I think that's oversimplifying. Yes, he is often the Only Sane Man, but frankly, if you take a look at canon, that's pretty justifiable. I mean, the technology exists, so why doesn't Superman wear a kryptonite radiation shield?!
And he can't always help everyone, eg. If anything, the unrealism is not so much in the main character pointing out reasonable things, but rather the frequency with which other characters actually take good advice. Though that's still far from always.
u/scruiser [+24] CYOA (an hour later)
Even the best SI tends towards wish-fulfillment. This can be okay... I I just need to moderate my expectations and be prepared to drop it if it drags on or loses too much tension by making the main character OP. With this Ring was/is right at the threshold of what I consider worth reading... if the main character was just a little bit more successful or if other characters were just a little bit less willing to call them out when they act crazy I would have probably dropped it. Worth the Candle avoids a lot of problems and intentionally deconstructs a few others... I think the fact that the author is writing a younger version of themselves helps them avoid some of the sleezier wish fulfillment.
In My Time of Troubles it is a DnD (Forgotten Realms) reincarnation SI. Main character is an Orc cleric/priest and goes about trying to improve Orc civilization. It has the semi-continuation/sequel (original still in progress) Young Justice SI The Dark Shard: Enemy of The Light, where the MC is again reincarnated this time in the DC universe. They go about trying to better organized the governments capacity to deal with magic. Very long. Rational/rationalist to a reasonable extent.
Walk on The Moon is a Naruto reincarnation SI in which the MC goes about trying to accumulate the raw power to escape Ninja life... making them self miserable and isolated in the process. Plots dragged on some but the character development is solid. Rationalist in an edgy kind of way.
Dragonfly Naruto reincarnation SI. The SI doesn’t have what it takes to relentlessly seek after power, so instead they make the best of things in their own way. A short and sweet story. Kind of the opposite of Walk on The Moon. Maybe anti-rationalist by what most people expect from the genre, but rational in its realism.
Dreaming of Worm features a case 53 SI. There ability to influence canon is limited by their semi-lucid state, but they try. Short and Sweet.
A Prison of Glass is a Worm CYOA fanfic told from the canon characters perspective that shows just how crazy/scary a SI can look from the outside. A deconstruction.
Edit: various typos changed into weird word choices by mobile autocorrect.
u/cretan_bull [+3] (9 hours later)
I'll second a recommendation for Walk on the Moon, though I think many would object to it being called rational. The most generous interpretation of the main character is that she has some significant character flaws and biases that make her life far more difficult than necessary. A less generous interpretation is that she's non compos mentis and would be diagnosed with something pretty major in the DSMV (I'm not quite sure what).
Others may draw a different line, but I would nonetheless call it rational. Despite being nuttier than a fruitcake, the main character intelligently uses her resources in a systematic manner to achieve her goals. In some ways, it serves as a deconstruction of SI fiction, as, perhaps, it is not only plausible, but likely, that a person would not be entirely sane when entered into such a situation with such knowledge.
u/Kishoto [+3] (a day later)
Of the River and the Sea is also a pretty good Naruto SI fic. Wouldn't call it rational, per se, but it does feel quite realistic.
u/scruiser [+2] CYOA (a day later)
I just started reading it after seeing it recommended in another post. It hasn’t broken my suspension of disbelief, or made the main character too ridiculously OP, or stuck to the rails of canon, so it beats 95% of SIs out there. It looks super long, but as long as the author keeps the plot moving that’s okay. At chapter 30 currently.
u/Kishoto [+1] (2 days later)
It is quite long but worth it imo. It derails canon quite hard and slight timeline spoiler
u/signeti [+2] (6 hours later)
I really tried to get into My Time of Troubles, because I quite like the concept. But its so horribly written. The diary form is just SO lazy.
u/scruiser [+1] CYOA (10 hours later)
The author is also really bad about having redundant point of view shifts (i.e. showing an event from 3 different characters perspectives), in a way that really slows the plot down. I think A Dark Shard is a lot better in terms of having more consistent plot development. The author borrows from the structure of Young Justice canon without following it too closely.
u/Nighzmarquls [+35] (30 minutes later)
I have great distaste for ROBs. Hate them on general principle. It nullifies, any stake or value or meaning to a story to have a ROB just set it up for you.
I prefer reincarnates when alternatives are not possible.
That said I also feel like a story can probably be better served with a none-omniscient characters. And most of the time I find self insert fiction to be a kind of authorial crutch.
An author writes themselves because it's easy to ask "what would I do in this situation?" Which is essentially a step of simplification down from asking "what would X character do in this situation?"
Personal preference, it's not something that is impossible to overcome or do well. But I feel like the successes are more in spite of self-insert fanfiction rather then because of it.
That said I'd argue that Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality reads a lot like Eliezer wrote a amnesiac self insert into Harry.
Also although it's not Rationalist it's useful to remember that Dante's Inferno and Paradisio was effectively Bible Self-insert fanfiction. So it's not strictly speaking a guarantee something is going to be bad either.
u/abcd_z [+16] (6 hours later)
I have great distaste for ROBs. Hate them on general principle. It nullifies, any stake or value or meaning to a story to have a ROB just set it up for you.
Personally I don't hate them, I just think that they're an uninteresting setup. In my opinion, Corrupted Data Files, a third-person comedy fic where the SI took Data's place, did it right by not addressing how or why the SI came to be where he was. And besides, if you're reading a story on the Spacebattles forum, you already know the deal.
Following that logic, I can't think of any SI fanfics that wouldn't be improved by removing the ROB chapter and any references thereto.
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+7] Dai-Gurren Brigade (6 hours later)
Doesn't Star Trek basically already have a canon ROB anyway in the form of Q?
u/abcd_z [+6] (7 hours later)
Yeah, but I got the impression that it wasn't him. Later on
DataSoong interacts with Q when Q gets depowered, and Soong asks, basically, "you knew, didn't you?" and Q is all, "yeah, I knew."EDIT:
"So is it alright if I ask you something."
"You may as well, I'm not going anywhere."
"You didn't let me speak when you put humanity on trial, or for much of the farce where you offered Riker power."
"Do I hear a question buried somewhere in there?"
"You knew about me. Immediately, yes?" A pause, Guinan couldn't see what they were doing, but assumed some gesture was made. "And I know how this episode of your life ends. Don't you, being functionally omniscient, also know then? Even as far back as Farpoint?"
"Bit self-important aren't we? I don't need your help to know the future, but it's so... boring to go through life with that perfect knowledge. And not always clear when it comes to my fellow Q. Not everything is as you saw in that silly little show, now is it?"
"I suppose not. But I do feel fairly confident in predicting a visitation by the Calamarain. Or is it the Coultrakitous?"
Q said a curse word Guinan only knew because of her extensive traveling and research.
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+2] Dai-Gurren Brigade (8 hours later)
Ah, yeah, I wasn't referring to that specific story, just to say that in the case of Star Trek any hate for ROBs should be aimed at the creators to begin with, since they are already part of the show.
u/abcd_z [+6] (8 hours later)
Oh, I see. Personally I don't have any problems with ROBs like Q. I hate how ROBs are overused as a method of kicking off the plot. Anybody who spends time reading SI stories already knows the broad strokes, so why bother wasting time and words on a rehash of "I'm ROB, I was bored, I don't particularly care about you, here's your new world, enjoy"?
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+11] Dai-Gurren Brigade (8 hours later)
Ah, yeah, in that sense, agreed. They're basically just a plot device anyway. Unless you get something like Aqua in Konosuba, which subverts and parodies that trope by making the deity much more fallible and dragging her down to the "other world" with the protagonist (I know this might not be what we had in mind originally here, but given that a lot of isekai Light Novels are basically self inserts of some kind, I think the comparison fits).
u/ansible [+2] The Culture (12 hours later)
That SI was hilarious, by the way. Thanks for posting the link.
u/FeepingCreature [+2] GCV Literally The Entire Culture (14 hours later)
There's a really clever Star Trek SI where a bad person in the ST universe basically mounts a high level pseudo-simulation attack on our reality. Bit of a handwave but manages to make do with a non-O RB, which I thought was a good solution.
u/Adreik [+2] (23 days later)
This one?
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/not-quite-shodan-st-si.286486/
u/FeepingCreature [+1] GCV Literally The Entire Culture (23 days later)
Exactly!
u/xThoth19x [+2] (16 hours later)
Worth the candle actually interacts with his Rob. And there's that one RWBY fic. Might not address your complaints but at least it isn't just trite.
u/i6i [+1] (2 days later)
Following that logic, I can't think of any SI fanfics that wouldn't be improved by removing the ROB chapter and any references thereto.
Hybrid Theory. ROB are uninteresting only insofar as they want what the audience wants.
u/None [+15] (48 minutes later)
Funnily enough, EY's response to the argument that Harry is a self-insert in HPMOR is to consider it a compliment. He feels like everyone in it is a self-insert, to an extent, so people acting like only Harry is instead of everyone means he wrote everyone well. Not trying to debate the point, I just find it interesting
Although that does lead into a larger point: if a writer has to contain everyone and everything they write in their head (which I don't necessarily agree with, but I've seen a lot of people that do), to what extent is a character not a self-insert? For the purposes of this thread's discussion, it's "when the character is intentionally made as a self-insert", which is why I'm saying this as a response to you rather than as a response to the OP
u/thrawnca [+20] Carbon-based biped (3 hours later)
to what extent is a character not a self-insert?
I suppose that's about the author deliberately considering a personality different to their own, and doing their best to accurately predict the behavior of that personality. Of course it will always be The Character According to John, but that's still not the same thing as being John.
u/Nighzmarquls [+3] (5 hours later)
As thrawnca says its always "according to author" but it's important to have the ability to write something that is not literally author.
I think in many ways this is more important because it helps give different voices to characters. When you already are writing one character as you its easier to write everyone as you without distinguishing characteristics or contrast.
That said if you want to see how this kind of thing can work spectacularly well inspite of this "rule" go read " the man who folded himself. "
It is an excellent example of flipping everything I just said on its head.
u/None [+5] (9 hours later)
to what extent is a character not a self-insert?
There are a couple of crazy authors who talk about their characters like they're real people with real agency in the story so probably those are as far removed from self inserts as possible.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+8] Father of Learning (11 hours later)
Well Of The River And The Sea is an SI in Naruto about a women reincarnated.... into the bloody mist. She tries to be as rational as possible.... but she's mentally ill IRL and there's no bloody medication so we watch her slow decline in mental health for 11 years until she finally deserts for Orochimaru who basically, as in canon, is the guy smart enough to develop entirely new branches of science when he wants to, so he basically reinvents schizophrenia meds and CBT. Then the fallout of living in the bloody mist for 11 years despite being exposed to normal earth values for her 20-odd year life beforehand, and she ends up only partially functional, which is nice in an SI. She starts occasionally doing really irrational stuff and only sometimes recognizing it because she's legit not right in the head. Good stuff, intriguing, even if the first 12 chapters are total edgelordville
u/derefr [+3] (15 hours later)
I have great distaste for ROBs. Hate them on general principle. It nullifies, any stake or value or meaning to a story to have a ROB just set it up for you.
How do you feel about ROBs when they're dynamic characters who are omnipotent relative to the protagonist, but not relative to the setting? Like, say, the Greek gods in any story with multiple Greek gods; or The Architect in The Matrix movies? Basically—someone who has root-level access to the simulation the protagonist resides in, but where the ROB still also resides somewhere and does not have root-level access to their own reality, and where the protagonist may potentially have effects on the ROB's "level" of reality that the ROB can't just magic away?
Because, er, I've been planning on writing a story with characters like that. (Imagine the setting of Portal, but with a VR world instead of a bunker. Would the GLaDOS of that setting be acceptable?)
u/Nighzmarquls [+5] (a day later)
It is more in how they setup the framing device and in particular the use of ROB as done in space battles where especially with a self insert they just call it a "Random Omnipotent Being" just... if it's that meaningless and arbitrary of you to have a plot device why are you bothering?
The arbitrary but some how focused on specifically the one being with no context, meaning, goal or instrumental reason behind it? that is what I dislike.
As soon as you start defining a ROB as something other then an arbitrary entity you drop the random from it.
As soon as you make it not actually omnipotent then your dropping that.
So yes I'm fine when it's not literally a ROB I'm just incensed and have to work about four times as hard to even bother reading a story if their 'hook' is "So this thing I don't care about at all and could be literally just some dude writing a story to make the situation sets up me in this situation." It's like not just an self insert, it's a self insert with an double mobius reach around self insert writing the self insert with the self insert acknowledging the bullshit of the self insert and why are you bothering to do this author I don't care if you just wink at me about it like that shut up.
u/None [+2] (15 hours later)
[deleted]
u/Nighzmarquls [+2] (a day later)
That could work but if its omnipotent and random how will you even identify or ever succeed? as soon as you set limits or you make it a distinct entity the arbitrariness and annoyance begins to fade.
u/Green0Photon [+15] Student in Cyoria, Minmay, and Ranvar (58 minutes later)
ROBs ruin any story, even though the idea was to make it easy to get started.
SIs are better being OC SIs (so the main character is still a character) and preferably doesn't know anything about the setting/story. Reincarnation makes things even smoother, but aren't 100% necessary.
Orange Lantern is better because he doesn't know the precise setting and plot, but essentially has magic knowledge that's indifferentiable from a lantern database, and so becomes a mere universe transmigrant.
Kaleidoscope was okay because it only focused one particular plot point (instead of no knowledge), but wasn't terrible because he didn't know the whole plot and anything about Itachi.
There's another Naruto fic I liked a lot because the SI knew nothing about Naruto at all (it didn't exist, he's a ressurected soul in a baby). If you try to search for it, he's raised by the Sannin and acts like a senpai for Minato. It's a few hundred thousand words. I can't remember its name.
ROBs suck because an omnipotent power makes everything seem kinda pointless and life untrustworthy. It makes a goal of going back or being normal pointless (common goals, although plot forces the mc to not do that). Zelretch as an excuse is similar, but not nearly as bad.
That Naruto fic I mentioned is great because of how well it ties together SIness with the story.
Inexplicably transmigrated works, but you need to be careful of everything becoming stupid. It's generally worse knowing about plot here, rather than knowing about it when being reincarnated. The idea is generally to make a new plot and don't follow the old, if you know about the plot in the first place. You want to make the story feel real, and following the plot while knowing it breaks the fourth wall too much. Being in the same setting while knowing how life could be if you weren't there is ok, being explained by multiverse differences.
Essentially, you can't know the same plot while you follow it, because that breaks the fourth wall too much. The plot has to be different and the SI needs to accept that. This rule can be bent if the SI only knows a little bit about the plot/setting/characters. The thing is, the characters shouldn't feel like they're in a story, but living life, as all characters should.
In a way, good SI fics are those that turn it into an isekai/reincarnation fic.
I'd be interested in a good quality counterexample to refine this rule.
u/Nighzmarquls [+2] (5 hours later)
To date the best ROB stories I've read use the ROB as a possible explanation that is in doubt.
Or it's actually not quite a ROB but is a god and the story is about that sort of disparity.
There is an amazing pony story about celestia pretty much creating everything from scratch gradually ands slowly and the conflict of that story is within her being unsure that anything in the universe matters because it was something she invented for herself "from dust"
u/Kinoite [+17] (15 hours later)
Going a bit meta, commercial fiction has a different sort of payout for me than self-published amateur work.
Commercial Fiction needs to tell a reasonably complete story in 80k-160k words. There needs to be a big climax at 90% of the word-count. And the work needs enough mainstream appeal to cover the costs of marketing and production.
To make a food analogy: Commercial Fiction is like a a high-end Italian restaurant. We expect excellent polish and presentation. The food is comforting and tasty, but the variety is constrained by the form and the need mass-acceptability. The result is something "Well Rounded."
Amateur work is what happens when my foodie friends call me over and say, "Hey! You've got to try this!" I don't expect that their Szechuan-Peppercorn-Infused Brownies will be comforting or well-presented. They might not even be good. But that's not the point.
Instead, experimental work, at it's best, is someone pushing an idea as far as it can go. Often, this involves sacrificing other aspects. The result isn't "well rounded" in the sense that commercial fiction is. But it's often very interesting.
ROBs are a way of hand-waving a premise. That would undercut commercial fiction. But I don't mind them in experimental fiction. They're a way for the author to jump straight to the interesting part of their idea. And, I'd take a ROB over a couple pages of unnecessary setup.
SIs are an experimental technique. The technique isn't great in most stories, which is why commercial fiction doesn't use it. But, "With This Ring" is all about the author using the technique to do something interesting.
I'd argue that Fan Fiction is a shortcut in the same way that ROBs are a short-cut. You can start off with an authors note like: "ROB takes level 1 Intelligent Hermione, Harry, Ron and Daphne and drops them on a tall ship. They can't see land. They don't recognize the stars. Magic doesn't work."
This lets us get straight to the interesting idea -- what would a group of teenagers do if they were stranded on a boat in an unknown location -- without the 40k+ words of fluff that commercial fiction would need to tell us that one is courageous, one reads, one whines and another is haughty.
The cost of experimental fiction is that, if the interesting idea falls flat, then you don't have all the other fluff to fall back on. And, since most ideas don't work, there's a lot of terrible fan-fiction. But, amateur works are still one of the few places where I run into really novel ideas.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
This is a great distinction, restaurant quality vs home experimentation quality.
I'd further add that although amateur work can sometimes be well-rounded and complete, there is always a cost to that. Some people don't have the experience or skill to do a complete work - but still have an interesting and thought-provoking idea to get out there. Some simply don't have the time to write 100K, or have so many different ideas that they'd rather write 10 * 10K. Dismissing work purely because it takes shortcuts would just mean that you don't hear those ideas.
And, since most ideas don't work, there's a lot of terrible fan-fiction.
That's R&D for you...
u/ben_sphynx [+9] (5 hours later)
Blood and Chaos was an interesting Buffy the Vampire Slayer self insert which I quite enjoyed. The main character seemed mostly rational, although has some odd goals at times.
It's not finished, and only has very rare updates.
u/None [+8] (5 hours later)
[deleted]
u/FeepingCreature [+2] GCV Literally The Entire Culture (14 hours later)
Is it really a SI if you remove the balancing force of the author selecting a good outcome? On net, you should expect a SI story to end better than canon; else you're not really inserting into {canon, authorial selection} but {canon, authorial selection for a worse world to counterbalance the SI}.
u/Ozryela [+10] (8 hours later)
A self-insert fanfiction is a story where a character or "self-insert" is inputted into a fictional setting of a preestablished fictional universe for which the character has omniscient knowledge of.
This is kind of a weird definition of a self-insert that seems to be completely different from how I've heard it used everywhere else. A brief google search indicates that I'm not misremembering here. It this definition unique to rationalist circles?
The ordinary definition of a self-insert is when an author inserts themselves into the story. I.e. a character in the story is clearly based on the author of the story. This can range from having a character with a similar personality to the author to having the character literally be the author, including awareness that they are the author. The latter seems to be common in comic books, with characters having discussions with the author character about plot points or other things.
Omniscience has nothing to do with it. Sure a self-insert could be omniscient, but so can any other character. A self-insert could break the 4th wall, but again, so could any other characters. Those are properties that are orthogonal to the concept of a self-insert.
u/MagicWeasel [+7] Cheela Astronaut (8 hours later)
Yeah, to me the prototypical example of a self-insert is the SI is a new kid at Hogwarts and Harry and Draco both want her to be their girlfriend, and the SI just blushes a lot, gets straight As, and is the star of the quidditch team, but doesn't actually have any sort of omnipotent knowledge.
I guess the overlap with the Rationalsphere and the whole concept of munchkinry makes the genre-savvy variant more beloved here.
u/SkoomaDentist [+11] (12 hours later)
That’s Mary Sue, not necessarily self insert.
u/pldl [+4] (17 hours later)
Mary Sue came from a parody of Self-insert, but it has expanded since then to describe that character.
u/None [+4] (8 hours later)
I really enjoy reading self insert fanfiction mostly because it scratches the "I have meta knowledge and know how to do everything better" itch that I get. It's the same feeling I get when I watch somebody fail to use a mechanism that I already understand how to use.
u/eaglejarl [+10] (9 hours later)
That's not what "self-insert" means. An SI story is simply one in which the author appears in the story, almost always but not necessarily as the main character. There's nothing wrong with SIs per se; the reason they draw hate is because the SI often ends up being a Mary Sue. As to omniscience...I've read a lot of SI stories and, even in stories where the SI is familiar with the setting, I have literally never read one where the character is omniscient, or even omniscient about the setting.
Some good SI stories:
Dreaming of Sunshine SI is reincarnated as Shikamaru's OC sister. Sticks a little too close to stations of the canon to be ideal, but it's rational and a lot of fun.
Roll the Dice on Fate, by our own /u/Jackercracks. The SI is born as a baby, orphaned during the 9-Tails attack, and needs to do everything he can to avoid being inducted as one of Orochimaru's experiments, up to and including becoming Gai's disciple. Derails canon almost immediately.
u/scruiser [+6] CYOA (10 hours later)
I would de-recc Dreaming of Sunshine for going on for several hundred thousand words without significantly deviating from canon or developing the main character in an interesting way.
For the opposite reason, willingness to divert from canon, I would recommend Roll the Dice on Fate, as the main character works effectively to derail canon even as a child.
u/torac [+4] (14 hours later)
Could someone explain how Kaleidoscope is rational? The MC seems to follow an extremely simplistic and straightforward plan: Train until you are useful enough not to be killed.
It’s also why I stopped reading. There are so many things the MC could have tried, but they just turtle up and train? That seems insane. As in, literally not right in the head. I could not understand how his plan was supposed to work, and indeed it did not work at all. I stopped reading after everything happened just as predicted and he was "killed" with the rest of the clan. His plan did not have any noticeable impact at all. If I have missed something, I’d be quite interested.
u/gfe98 [+3] (22 hours later)
I actually dropped Worth the Candle entirely because the ROB appearance ruined it for me. It is probably my least favorite cliche.
u/Ace_Kuper [+5] (4 hours later)
I also recommend Worth the candle but we all know of it and its a very unique case. The MC is basically an SI in his own original universe. It has most of the qualities of a self-insert fanfiction but the reader knows nothing about the fictional universe which makes it so special. It's a mystery for everyone including him.
WtC has some problems for me and some of them take root in it being a direct self insert. It also is a wish fulfillment to an extent, rather slow and earned one, but still. Not even counting the literal ROB in it. There is a lot to discuss about WtC and i already posted a lot of my problems with it in respective thread. Instead i want to talk about the description you gave to the "self insert" stories and their tropes.
Using his knowledge of the past, present, and future, the self-insert has to adapt to the fictional setting he was placed in. In self-insert fanfiction the SI is usually placed in the setting by a ROB(Random Omnipotent Being), reincarnated, or my preferred option, inexplicably transmigrated.
Self-insert fanfiction has a tendency to delve into wish fulfillment, SI's ignoring glaring canon plots he should not be able to avoid, SI's easily becoming overpowered compared to their fictional protaginists/antagonists, and SI's focusing on romance rather than solving canon problems of the fictional world.
Your explanation of self insert fits almost perfectly to any Isekay\transferred to another world fiction, even some of the trapped in the MMO ones. I think the problem is the writing style and what authors want to achieve\tell with their story, not exactly the self insert itself.
u/Ih8Otakus [+1] (5 hours later)
Isekai is mainly original fictions. I tried to explain what a self insert is in a self-insert fanfiction. Fanfiction is a whole other bag of worms that I'm looking to get into. With this ring pulls off the self insert trope so well because the DC universe is so expansive. Every character you are introduced to has its own back story already established due to years of world building the author does not have to get into.
u/Ace_Kuper [+2] (7 hours later)
My point was problems that you described fit Isekai\trapped in an MMO type of fiction and they are not exactly unique to the "self insert". Gripes you had are applicable to "self insert", but they more likely appear because of the author ( first work, young, didn't build the world just wanted to be cool, etc).
u/Ih8Otakus [+1] (8 hours later)
Oh yes I agree. I am not proud of this but I've read many self insert naruto fanfiction and some of those authors are the most edgiest edgelords you will conclude upon based on how their SI acts. Seriously stay away. You will need eyebleach.
u/SimonSim211 [+2] (4 hours later)
I think self inserts can work it there is a certain level of humour and they don't try to force the original plot...
E.g. https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10972919/1/The-Evil-Overlord-List Or "In My Time of Troubles"
u/RMcD94 [+2] (15 hours later)
Lots of SI's on the alternatehistory forum which is quite fun to see how you'd industrialise a nation or the optimal routes for a country.
I don't think SI's have to be fictional so I'm not sure why you said that. Me waking up in Queen Victoria's body is identical to an SI.
Also worth the candle isn't that unusual it's similar to a few comics that have been posted before about people being transported to DnD worlds that they are familiar with.
What came first ROBs or ASBs?
u/vallar57 [+1] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (12 hours later)
It's just a trope, any trope can be used if you are good enough. But since most writers aren't, better not touch it.
u/None [+1] (6 days later)
I don't really write self insertion any more. I still like to imagine myself being a fuckawesome mover and shaker in the world of my choice, but whenever I try to commit an idea on paper my inner nitpicker comes out to play and calls out all of the shenanigans I had to commit in order for Someone Who's Literally Me (in personality, experience, skills, power levels, or some combination of the above) to not immediately die a horrible death in most of the settings I want to play in. Deus ex Machina is fun for pure self-indulgence, not so much for suspending disbelief.
(Shameless self promotion--my last attempt at writing an SI, and all of the Fridge Logic that immediately sprang into mind, actually inspired a story: Free to Play )
u/Ae3qe27u [+1] (15 hours later)
Two Year Emperor is pretty amazing, I think. It exploits many of the classic D&D loopholes.
I don't have a link on me (mobile), but it can be found by a quick Google search.
u/everything-narrative [+1] Coral, Abide with Rubicon! (2 days later)
Way too often Self Insert means "white heterosexul teen male, blander than kraft singles."
u/None [+1] (6 days later)
You must not have traveled in the same 'fic circles as me, then, because a lot of the SIs I read were written by upper middle class teenage girls.
u/everything-narrative [+2] Coral, Abide with Rubicon! (6 days later)
Yeah, I usually read portal fantasy (with/without LitRPG elements), which makes the 'self insert' rather starkly literal.
u/None [+1] (6 days later)
Like I said upthread, everybody likes to indulge in masturbatory wish fulfillment; it just doesn't make for fun reading when you can't imagine the main character to be yourself.
u/everything-narrative [+2] Coral, Abide with Rubicon! (7 days later)
Oh woe is me, all I want is a queer, gender-weird, polyamorous, neuro-atypical protagonist!
u/None [+1] (7 days later)
With a request that specific, you're better off Doing It Yourself rather than hoping some queer, gender-weird, polyamorous, neuro-atypical person decides to become a writer.
u/everything-narrative [+3] Coral, Abide with Rubicon! (7 days later)