54 KiB
Utilitarian Death Note?
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Author: u/SimoneNonvelodico Dai-Gurren Brigade*
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URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/8bp3do/utilitarian_death_note/
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Score: 42
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Created: 2018-04-12T10:21:07
Post:
Does anyone know of a Death Note fanfiction that explores what would have happened if the DN had fallen in the hands of a more rational/ethical person than Light Yagami? Clearly, the DN itself doesn't really allow much room for "ethical" use at all - the only truly ethical thing to do with it would be burning it on the spot and burying the ashes. But Light's use of it was exceedingly psychopathic, he focused a lot on petty crimes without ever looking at the bigger picture, and purposefully made himself known, thus drawing the attention of the investigators, in order to pursue his idea of making himself into a God figure. Not to mention how quick he was to begin killing innocent people as soon as they opposed him. Did anyone ever write a fic about a DN user who instead lays low and uses it only occasionally, to kill off people making it seem like accidents or natural deaths in order to not disclose their own existence, trying to influence the arc of history in a positive way whenever they think it'll make a big enough change that even killing is justified (e.g. killing off a dictator)? And potentially, of course, the ways this could still backfire on them...
Comments:
u/None [+33] (32 minutes later)
I would really like to read anything in Death Note fandom which isn't either gay porn fantasy or "OMG I SO LOVE L!!1" fangirling. I'm sick and tired of trying to find something decent. Can you recomend anything which doesn't call for bleach in the eyes just after reading description?
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+15] Dai-Gurren Brigade (39 minutes later)
Not really, I haven't touched fanfiction in a long time and am just now getting back into it. I wrote some Death Note fanfic myself years ago, but it's all in Italian and now I can't go back to translate it without it feeling a bit cringey to me. One story was about what Naomi Misora did in the time she had to decide how to kill herself, and how she struggled with her Death Note-mandated suicidal impulse. Another was basically a parody (that ended with ).
u/None [+2] (59 minutes later)
oh boy, i'll be dead in minutes if it was real
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+10] Dai-Gurren Brigade (an hour later)
Also imagine how quick that would be in today's world. DN is old enough it didn't really deal with stuff like social media. Facebook is literally all that someone with a DN would need to basically rule the world.
u/None [+6] (an hour later)
Yes, I bet L name and location would be leaked in no time by some overenthusiastic Instagram user
u/nytelios [+2] (12 hours later)
I'd give the same recommendation as /u/heroofoldiron below. If It's Not You, It's Me. Not so much a rational exploration of the ethics of using DN but the emotions and thought processes behind the cat and mouse between Light and L.
u/aram855 [+2] (a day later)
Thus Spoke Zarathustra is one of the best ones out there. A philosofical analysis of Light Yagami and his God complex from the point of view of a new character.
u/None [+15] (2 hours later)
https://m.fanfiction.net/s/12145955/1/Rationalising-Death-Pre-Rewrite-Version
There's this. It's not finished, probably never will be, though
u/monkyyy0 [+27] (22 minutes later)
Is death note even interesting without the mythical tropes? Kira is kira, because he's eating forbidden fruit, if he doesn't get kicked out of eden I'm not sure what the story is about.
"Today I found a magical notebook that kills anyone; I start studying cryptography and world class operational security because the idiots who almost destroyed the world in the cold war should not hold this; during this time I hear about assassination markets and figure 'what the hell' and release a ounce of proof that I can do what I claim, get a bit of passive income, and start a small cult that highly values secrecy"
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+35] Dai-Gurren Brigade (36 minutes later)
I mean, it's a completely different story, doesn't mean it's not potentially good. I don't take it as "fixing" Death Note, which is mighty good as is (nor do I take HPMOR as "fixing" Harry Potter, for that matter, for all the poking fun it does at its worst plot holes here and there). It's just using the same plot device to tell a story that goes into a different direction.
In fact, here's an interesting thought - Ryuk is in a way a proxy for the audience, as he's in it for the fun, basically. So whoever the user is might be fought between not wanting to do anything too evil and keeping Ryuk entertained - knowing full well that he'd just kill him and give the Note to a potentially much less restrained human if he left him bored.
Personally I think it's at least an interesting thought. And it's not like anyone acting like I described would not have a lot of moral conflicts ahead of them. Even without acting as recklessly as Kira did, using the Death Note still isn't a morally clean affair. It would be much more interesting to see what a person with genuine moral concerns would do with it (and what it would do to them) than the kind of hyper-efficient but somehow sociopathic type you're portraying.
u/Rheklr [+4] (a day later)
Is death note even interesting without the mythical tropes? Kira is kira, because he's eating forbidden fruit, if he doesn't get kicked out of eden I'm not sure what the story is about.
I agree. Kira's flaws are what bring him down and make him complex and interesting; if he was a perfectly rational then it'd just be boring.
u/LupoCani [+5] (a day later)
It bears repeating - characters in rational fiction are not perfectly rational. They're better at some things and more resistant to certain failure modes, they can be just as flawed as anyone else.
u/Rheklr [+1] (a day later)
Oh I agree - with rational fiction the consequences should always be rational. OP's qiestion was about the protagonist also bring rational, which would probably be boring.
u/None [+31] (an hour later)
he focused a lot on petty crimes without ever looking at the bigger picture, and purposefully made himself known
that was the point of his usage, he wanted people to know that certain crimes are going to be punished, so they stop committing them. He literally lowers the crime rate by 70% for 6 years and stops all wars.
Light saved millions of people with his usage of the death note and only killed a few hundred thousands to do it(with around 10.000 innocents) You cant really get a much better result if you are utilitarian. Light also had long time goals to influence human behavior and encourage Humans to use their full potential(when one of his followers trys to do this, Light mentions that its to early)
In the end Lights mistake was his arrogance and god complex, but his actual goal of creating a better world was happening.
Not to mention how quick he was to begin killing innocent people as soon as they opposed him
Its also debatable if those he killed who tried to stop him count as innocent victims, considering their goals would have caused millions of truly innocent people to die.
Most of the really innocents he killed, were those he thought were guilty of a crime, but were wrongly convicted or entered plea deals.
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+36] Dai-Gurren Brigade (an hour later)
Light saved millions of people with his usage of the death note and only killed a few hundred thousands to do it(with around 10.000 innocents) You cant really get a much better result if you are utilitarian. Light also had long time goals to influence human behavior and encourage Humans to use their full potential(when one of his followers trys to do this, Light mentions that its to early)
There's a lot to say there. First, while it was mentioned that wars did stop, it was never really clarified how did it happen, since it looked mostly like Light focused on killing random muggers and rapists, not war criminals and tyrants (that might have been because the manga author didn't want to get too political, though; albeit someone might say that the act of painting street or organised crime as the biggest threat to society's welfare is, in itself, political).
Second, Light's stated objective might have been that, but by making his presence obvious he also opened up the floodgates to what happened: investigations, and his own defeat. It would not have taken much to assume any investigation would have required him to either fight with both arms tied behind his back or start killing innocent, justice-loving people just because of his own utilitarian calculations (which always involved his own view of justice and ethics being front and centre, and fuck the rest of mankind and their opinions). He could know so, and did it nevertheless.
Third, his approach leaves a lot to be desired in other respects. Only if you count good in raw numbers of lives saved, and you count the value of individual freedom as literally zero, you can argue he caused a net good. Yes, he may have reduced crime. He also plunged the world in an era of superstitious dread, by making everyone as scared as they'd ever been in the Dark Ages of drawing on themselves punishment from above, except this time the punishing wrathful God was really there. How many people were killed for judicial mistakes, or because someone slandered them and Kira fell for it? With hundreds of kills a day he couldn't certainly check his sources too well (not to mention all the time he left the killings to the less-than-bright and possibly mentally unstable Misa Amane). How may suicides, how much paranoia and depression in people who committed minor offences and dreaded for their own life? How much creativity and free speech repressed by fear of supernatural punishment? Will nothing of this truly affect society in the long run? Here's another fanfiction idea: Light wins, and then the world ends up in a state of stagnation as it regresses to a mindset of fear, self-imposed censorship, and superstition.
Fourth, and possibly worst of all: Light never made any real succession plans. He never gave a fuck about what would happen when he died. All he wanted to do was see his ideal world become real, and live to rule it. The end. Like Alexander the Great, once his empire had fallen, and the more entrenched had it become, it would have been torn to shreds by the need to readjust itself to the new status quo. He died without having won entirely yet, and all that happened was that the world went back to square 1 in a couple years. Imagine if he had died 75, after 50 years of absolute rule. Entire new generations born and grown under the rule of Kira suddenly would find themselves alone to fend for themselves. That is basically a surefire way to get the most devastating religious wars the planet has ever seen to break out. When a God dies, that's a big power vacuum to fill.
u/mcherm [+13] (2 hours later)
Now THAT would be a story worth taking the time to read!
u/RMcD94 [+4] (a day later)
Who's going to commit suicide out of fear of death?
Light is in an unique position in that he can basically have prophets everywhere. Starting a single global religion is the best way to maximise utility.
Have a few high profile people write out your (gods) code of ethics.
It wouldn't be that hard to not be caught, see that article on information bits. Especially if most of the world agrees with you. (and if anyone even bothers looking cause why would someone assume that its a human as opposed to aliens or gods or state sponsored superweapon)
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+7] Dai-Gurren Brigade (a day later)
Who's going to commit suicide out of fear of death?
Someone who'd rather end the suffering that is the fear itself.
Light is in an unique position in that he can basically have prophets everywhere. Starting a single global religion is the best way to maximise utility.
A religion sounds like the kind of social engineering tool that's highly likely to end up backfiring or producing weird unintended consequences...
(and if anyone even bothers looking cause why would someone assume that its a human as opposed to aliens or gods or state sponsored superweapon)
That's... uhhh. Suppose something seemingly supernatural begins happening, what's your prior for it being aliens or gods rather than a human with ESP powers? Especially considering that the target seems an oddly human thing on which to take out your wrath on. Why would aliens care about killing our criminals?
u/RMcD94 [+2] (a day later)
Someone who'd rather end the suffering that is the fear itself.
Ah that's surely a huge proportion of the population...
A religion sounds like the kind of social engineering tool that's highly likely to end up backfiring or producing weird unintended consequences...
No doubt.
That's... uhhh. Suppose something seemingly supernatural begins happening, what's your prior for it being aliens or gods rather than a human with ESP powers? Especially considering that the target seems an oddly human thing on which to take out your wrath on. Why would aliens care about killing our criminals?
Because of magic and advanced technology one is actually reasonable. "Something acting in a way that doesn't make sense versus something that is physically impossible". For all we know aliens or our simulation operators do this on every world.
I can imagine nanotechnology being capable of doing what Kira does. I can also imagine magic doing it. One of those things fits with my model of the universe.
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+5] Dai-Gurren Brigade (a day later)
Ah that's surely a huge proportion of the population...
Depression works in weird ways. Depression affects a sizeable percentage of the population, even in normal times.
I can imagine nanotechnology being capable of doing what Kira does. I can also imagine magic doing it. One of those things fits with my model of the universe.
At the beginning of DN, no one thinks Kira is magic. They think they're some kind of organisation carrying out homicides normally. When L pulls off the Lind L. Taylor stunt they see that he can kill at will and at a distance, instantaneously. That's still not proof enough to claim magic. But if it's sufficiently advanced technology, well, could be aliens, or could be some human individual/organisation who managed to invent it. Equally unlikely. But the choice of targets is remarkably human. Aliens wouldn't feel strongly about Earth crime. Which would make me more inclined to believe it's one or more humans who are responsible.
u/RMcD94 [+1] (a day later)
Depression works in weird ways. Depression affects a sizeable percentage of the population, even in normal times.
Yeah just look at the millions of people who committed suicide because of the fear of dying in an UNAVOIDABLE nuclear holocaust. Of course many more billions probably would die from an entirely AVOIDABLE death by committing crimes.
At the beginning of DN, no one thinks Kira is magic. They think they're some kind of organisation carrying out homicides normally. When L pulls off the Lind L. Taylor stunt they see that he can kill at will and at a distance, instantaneously. That's still not proof enough to claim magic. But if it's sufficiently advanced technology, well, could be aliens, or could be some human individual/organisation who managed to invent it. Equally unlikely. But the choice of targets is remarkably human. Aliens wouldn't feel strongly about Earth crime. Which would make me more inclined to believe it's one or more humans who are responsible.
Stop saying you know how aliens would feel. We literally don't have a single piece of information. For all we know aliens are obsessed with every single bit of human culture and consume everyone of our shows.
Anyway I think it's nonsense that they assume its human, because they are assuming a group is able to kill people in isolation at any time at any point across the globe and unlike aliens who can have any technology level a human being can only have the next step in technology (which would mean if one person has it someone else is going to invent it shortly too). So if it is an organisation who has access to drug the food of all these prisoners or something actually logical then such an organisation is so powerful that they could halt any funding for an investigation anyway.
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+4] Dai-Gurren Brigade (a day later)
Stop saying you know how aliens would feel. We literally don't have a single piece of information. For all we know aliens are obsessed with every single bit of human culture and consume everyone of our shows.
I don't know how aliens would feel, but it's unlikely to think they would feel in such a specific way. If you have two possible culprits for a crime, and one has a motive, why would you suspect more the other?
Yeah just look at the millions of people who committed suicide because of the fear of dying in an UNAVOIDABLE nuclear holocaust. Of course many more billions probably would die from an entirely AVOIDABLE death by committing crimes.
I'm not saying billions, of course, that would be idiotic. I'm saying that a non insignificant side effect of 'Kira' would be an increase in stress and fear in people who may feel guilty either over nothing or over minor infractions. In addition, as you said, Kira planned to eventually start killing even "slackers", so no, it wouldn't be avoidable just by not committing crimes. Do you know who may feel like a "slacker"? Everyone who's got an illness or handicap that prevents them from working at the full of their potential; everyone who's got mental problems; everyone who suffers from imposter syndrome. That's a lot of people who now also have to deal with the fear of supernatural punishment.
u/RMcD94 [+0] (a day later)
I don't know how aliens would feel
Aliens wouldn't feel strongly about Earth crime
Well send me mixed messages why don't you?
If you have two possible culprits for a crime, and one has a motive, why would you suspect more the other?
Because one is impossible. I mean sure after aliens or something but I just can't see why anyone would give L the budget.
In addition, as you said, Kira planned to eventually start killing even "slackers", so no, it wouldn't be avoidable just by not committing crimes.
I don't think I said that
I'm not saying billions, of course, that would be idiotic. I'm saying that a non insignificant side effect of 'Kira' would be an increase in stress and fear in people who may feel guilty either over nothing or over minor infractions
I am saying that it would be insignificant. I can certainly agree that there might be a fear factor from false accusations but I've been to the Philippines, people fucking love Duerete. I can imagine Kira getting an identical reaction.
Everyone who's got an illness or handicap that prevents them from working at the full of their potential; everyone who's got mental problems; everyone who suffers from imposter syndrome.
Maybe if such a killing people for not giving a 100% ever got implemented but I don't see that ever happening.
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+3] Dai-Gurren Brigade (a day later)
Maybe if such a killing people for not giving a 100% ever got implemented but I don't see that ever happening.
It was in Light's stated plan. Mikami even has Takada say it on TV, and all Light thinks is that it's "too soon", because he thinks this notion has to be introduced gradually. But he does agree with it.
u/RMcD94 [+1] (a day later)
Well I don't defend that plan. Seems like a nightmare to implement. How would he know if someone isn't putting in 100%? Only the person who is doing it knows that. And as soon as you survive one day doing 90% then you know you're safe and no longer have any threat. And since humans can't/won't maintain 100% forever they'll realise fast and it'll undermine your religious authority.
u/OnePunchFan8 [+4] (3 hours later)
Imo he should've killed only a few major criminals every day/every week. Make it impossible to identify where the killer(himself) is.
And only major criminals as well.
u/chiruochiba [+7] (14 hours later)
If Light only targeted major criminals, then the minor criminals would think "I'm safe to do whatever I want as long as I don't become notorious." Rather than decrease the rate of crime, Light's actions would just cause a shift in criminal behavior to compensate. That kills the deterrent aspect of Light's plan.
Metropolitan Man (rationalist superman fic) is a good example which explores how well intended policies can have unintended consequences. Humans will always try to game the system.
u/OnePunchFan8 [+3] (14 hours later)
Thanks, I'll give it a read!
u/kaukamieli [+1] (3 days later)
Maybe. But maybe we should go to another direction? Instead of big dirty criminals, how about "clean" criminals? Governments and all? Force them to show all their dirty secrets and play nicely afterwards?
u/None [+1] (3 days later)
On the other hand, if you give disproportionate retribution for minor crimes, that will also have the unintended consequence of increasing crime, because if you're going to die for, say, jaywalking, you may as well die killing the son of a bitch you've been hating for years.
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+5] Dai-Gurren Brigade (4 hours later)
Yeah, even if you accept the premise of his actions and that killing was justified for the greater good, his plan was ridiculously ambitious, both for his own abilities and for his own sanity.
u/None [+2] (2 hours later)
There's a lot to say there. First, while it was mentioned that wars did stop, it was never really clarified how did it happen, since it looked mostly like Light focused on killing random muggers and rapists, not war criminals and tyrants
my assumption was that he was using the same channels over which he has contacts with the public. Its just a theory, but it seems likely that at that point he would start use his reputation like in season 2.(though we have no proof either way)
Second, Light's stated objective might have been that, but by making his presence obvious he also opened up the floodgates to what happened: investigations, and his own defeat
his defeat happened because Light was too arrogant and decided to kill the FBI agents that were investigating Kira as a warning to others. Until that point all that was known about Kira was that he was that he was operating in the Kantō region and had acces to the data of the Kira investigation. By killing the FBI Agents he basically narrowed it down to a few dozen suspects, including himself a known genius. By killing Rey Penbers wife he also gave away his triumph card of people not knowing that Kira can kill through other methods.
If he had been able to ignore People opposing him, he would never really have been suspected.
Third, his approach leaves a lot to be desired in other respects. Only if you count good in raw numbers of lives saved, and you count the value of individual freedom as literally zero, you can argue he caused a net good.
Those are usually him taking the lives of people who are mostly either unrepentant people convicted of murder or wanted for murder. Both kinds generally dont benefit Humanity outside of special circumstances. And him saving the lives of would be murder victims and people who would have died in wars. He didn't really take away Individual freedom, he mostly imposed two laws, dont murder and dont oppose me and he carried out the punishment himself. Any government does the same(he doesn't take away freedom if it doesn't really exist).
He also plunged the world in an era of superstitious dread, by making everyone as scared as they'd ever been in the Dark Ages of drawing on themselves punishment from above, except this time the punishing wrathful God was really there.
Its mentioned that the general population actually feels better, by knowing that they have a god looking out for them and handing out just punishments.
How many people were killed for judicial mistakes, or because someone slandered them and Kira fell for it? With hundreds of kills a day he couldn't certainly check his sources too well
Fans estimated it around 10.000 after calculating how many names are written down per day and how people are generally falsely convicted.
(not to mention all the time he left the killings to the less-than-bright and possibly mentally unstable Misa Amane)
he actually calls Misa out for committing unjust muders, but it can be assumed that afterwards she was using the same restriction he placed on himself(she really wanted to please him)
How may suicides, how much paranoia and depression in people who committed minor offences and dreaded for their own life? How much creativity and free speech repressed by fear of supernatural punishment?
thats really on them. we dont see Light killing people for minor offenses(the closest thing was the suspected rapist he used to scare Rey Penber) He also doesn't stop people from speaking against him, he only took actions against those who actually tried to stop him. we know his followers participate in public discussions and argue with others about him.
Here's another fanfiction idea: Light wins, and then the world ends up in a state of stagnation as it regresses to a mindset of fear, self-imposed censorship, and superstition.
thats probably why Lights long term plans involve punishing people for not using their full potential. there cant really be stagnation if people would be forced to advance.
Fourth, and possibly worst of all: Light never made any real succession plans. He never gave a fuck about what would happen when he died.
thats not really true, Light had a cult Following him, he even had people like Teru Mikami and Kiyomi Takada who were competent and actually believed in his cause. They also both had access to pages of the death note. He even notes that Mikami was able to act like he wanted to without any actual orders. If Light had died devoted followers of his like Mikami would have continued his work in his name, Its not like Light didn't entrust very loyal people his secret.
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+5] Dai-Gurren Brigade (3 hours later)
Until that point all that was known about Kira was that he was that he was operating in the Kantō region and had acces to the data of the Kira investigation.
Which was already a great deal more than what would have been known if he just kept a low profile and didn't try killing L when he was first challenged, aka "fuck all". In fact, just fighting opposition at all basically gave away that he was a human, fearful of punishment, and not a God. A justice-loving God would not have cared, and would have waited for these well-intentioned but misguided humans to come around to see things from his point of view.
Those are usually him taking the lives of people who are mostly either unrepentant people convicted of murder or wanted for murder. Both kinds generally dont benefit Humanity outside of special circumstances.
Still doesn't give a single individual the right to be jury, judge and executioner.
He didn't really take away Individual freedom, he mostly imposed two laws, dont murder and dont oppose me and he carried out the punishment himself. Any government does the same(he doesn't take away freedom if it doesn't really exist).
Absolutely false, he punished for far more than that. Plus "don't oppose me" is already not a fair law, but a tyrant's whim. And you already said it afterwards, he planned to even punish people whom he felt were lazy or not contributing enough to society. That seems quite a far cry from fairness or justice to me, especially since the only punishment he's able to dole out is death. It would definitely restrict society! Think living in there. You'll be super-careful to not only steer clear from any kind of criminal activity, but from any situation where you could be suspected, or wrongly accused, of said activity. One false accusation and you risk your life. Now let's say Kira has already started his "punish people who slack off" campaign. He said he'd do that with means other than heart attacks, but someone could catch on anyway (plus, if he didn't make it obvious, it wouldn't serve much purpose, he can't kill off all slackers, it only works if he can deter the behaviour, so he needs it to be known). First, that's already a horribly trivial reason to kill someone. Second, people will be immediately pressed into doing whatever they realise or imagine Kira thinks is a worthy contribution. Kira thinks being an amateur artist or a musician is a pointless waste of talent? Entire sectors of popular culture shrivel. Death is such a huge threat, people would stay completely the fuck away from a lot of activities or lifestyles, even if they would not have much to fear. Society altogether would be influenced. If to you having to change the way one lives for fear that some unknown person will judge you and kill you isn't losing freedom, I don't know what is.
Fans estimated it around 10.000 after calculating how many names are written down per day and how people are generally falsely convicted.
Oh, well, just 10,000 innocents killed, that's nothing /sarcasm.
he actually calls Misa out for committing unjust muders, but it can be assumed that afterwards she was using the same restriction he placed on himself(she really wanted to please him)
By his logic, if he had any integrity, he should have killed Misa as soon as Rem was dead, as punishment for her murder. Except suddenly he was very forgiving with the one woman who could be of use to him (and that arguably he may have developed some kind of distorted sense of attachment to).
thats really on them. we dont see Light killing people for minor offenses(the closest thing was the suspected rapist he used to scare Rey Penber) He also doesn't stop people from speaking against him, he only took actions against those who actually tried to stop him. we know his followers participate in public discussions and argue with others about him.
Misa killed TV anchormen. She killed cops. Kira killed the FBI agents. Mikami killed Demegawa and his "dirigents". Who knows what the fuck Higuchi did. People don't know what the fuck is going on behind the scenes, they see people dropping dead on live TV, they're scared, they're paranoid, they make assumptions. You can't really say "that's on them". Without knowing who Light is, it's perfectly legitimate to fear him acting irrationally. This isn't even a thing like Lex Luthor fearing Superman will one day become dangerous just because he's so powerful, even though Superman is basically a saint. Light has absolute power but he's also clearly pretty unhinged. "Kira", as a composite character, as seen from the public who only gets a glimpse of the real picture, is a schizophrenic, inconsistent madman.
thats probably why Lights long term plans involve punishing people for not using their full potential. there cant really be stagnation if people would be forced to advance.
You know what would really make research labs work faster? Someone with a gun pointed to the head of scientists at all times! That'll make 'em churn out those results.
Yeah, no. I really hope you get no leadership roles ever if this is your way of thinking because this theory of leadership was debunked at some point after the time when whip masters would work slaves to death. In fact, extreme competition is often detrimental to productivity already; if people feel like it's not just their success or pride to be on the line, but their very livelihood, they become more likely to cheat and do whatever it takes to come out on top. Which is obviously not desired.
thats not really true, Light had a cult Following him, he even had people like Teru Mikami and Kiyomi Takada who were competent and actually believed in his cause. They also both had access to pages of the death note. He even notes that Mikami was able to act like he wanted to without any actual orders. If Light had died devoted followers of his like Mikami would have continued his work in his name, Its not like Light didn't entrust very loyal people his secret.
The manga is already pretty unrealistic on that point because it needs those people mostly as plot devices, tools in Light's master plan. Even so, let's stick to canon.
Light loses because he trusted Mikami. He loses because Mikami takes a personal initiative and ruins his plan. But granted, that was just a personal initiative in terms of what to do, Mikami's ideals matched pretty much Lights. However earlier on Light remarks that he needs to get in touch with Mikami because he's already starting to drift away from him. And that's Mikami: a fanatic who sees Light as a God. When Light loses, that's all it takes for Mikami to cry that he's no God, that he's a fraud. His faith is shattered. How much do you think it would have taken to the zealot Mikami to decide that Light was after all disappointing, and that he could be a better God than him? How would he have reacted had he learned some of Light's less known exploits (including that he let Misa live at all)?
People have different ideals. They fight over those views of justice all the time. Imagine what would happen if they fought using Death Notes as their weapons. And Light only involved Mikami in the first place because he was under surveillance. What if he died in an accident, without properly planning or laying out a succession plan? What if his successor went off the rails? What if he entrusted multiple successors and they ended up disagreeing? What, what what. The entire affair relies on an incredibly concentrated and poorly resilient power structure. A modern government doesn't crumble if a leader dies because there's a chain of command, it'd take a cataclysm to obliterate enough people to throw it into chaos. Old monarchies could fall into civil war if enough successors were taken out of the picture. Kira's god-king position would be even more unstable than that, relying on secrecy, informal pacts, and the fear of mutual annihilation to stay afloat.
u/RMcD94 [+2] (a day later)
Your opposition on the second quote means you aren't a utilitarian.
There's no such thing as a right to do things. Only what maximises utility
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+3] Dai-Gurren Brigade (a day later)
Never said I am an utilitarian. The only thing that would keep me from burning the Death Note immediately is the off chance that it could one day be the only way I have to try averting an existential risk like nuclear war or such, when it's literally do or die anyway. I wouldn't want to use it even to meddle with, say, the Syrian war, not because I don't think ending it wouldn't be worth the lives of a few despicable men, but because I'm smarter than presuming I can just predict all the outcomes of throwing a spanner in the works of a highly complex socio-political situation spanning from a culture I don't know or understand.
Gandalf said it best in the Fellowship of the Rings: “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.”.
u/RMcD94 [+2] (a day later)
I mean this sounds like you'd never enjoy a Death Note story because you don't like it in principle.
Also that's ridiculous, you don't have to be smarter. Anyone could have ended WW2 by killing Hitler.
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+2] Dai-Gurren Brigade (a day later)
I enjoyed Death Note a great deal. But I didn't root for Light. You can enjoy without agreeing with its protagonist (which in this case is also very much a villain protagonist).
I'm actually saying I think it's interesting to argue with this proposition in a narrative, I can see a lot of situations in which one could actually make a point against me that it'd be better to use the DN than not. But certainly not the way Light used it.
About Hitler: possibly, though it's not like he was the only force behind it. Mussolini was pretty much a joke but Japan kept fighting fiercely even after Germany's defeat. Doing in Hitler would have worked only after the tide of war turned enough that anyone who was half sane in the Nazi leadership could have seen that they would lose, and then again, they would need some guarantee that they would not be executed afterwards for war crimes.
Also, after the war, Churchill wanted to continue the war, against the Soviet Union. Who knows what would have happened if the war had ended in 1943, with the Allies still not quite as worn out.
Also, if nuclear weapons had not been used in 1945, they could have been used later on, when the other side already had them too. Leading potentially to a nuclear war instead of the stall we got in the cold war.
u/RMcD94 [+1] (a day later)
I enjoyed Death Note a great deal. But I didn't root for Light. You can enjoy without agreeing with its protagonist (which in this case is also very much a villain protagonist).
You're asking for a utilitarian Light, that's not gonna be someone who uses the notebook less.
About Hitler: possibly, though it's not like he was the only force behind it. Mussolini was pretty much a joke but Japan kept fighting fiercely even after Germany's defeat. Doing in Hitler would have worked only after the tide of war turned enough that anyone who was half sane in the Nazi leadership could have seen that they would lose, and then again, they would need some guarantee that they would not be executed afterwards for war crimes.
Ok don't move the goalposts. Killed Hitler would have immediately halted the war between Germany and the Allies saving millions.
Having the Japanese Emperor commit seppuku while ordering Japan to lay down arms would probably have negated the need for the millions dead there.
Also, after the war, Churchill wanted to continue the war, against the Soviet Union. Who knows what would have happened if the war had ended in 1943, with the Allies still not quite as worn out.
Also, if nuclear weapons had not been used in 1945, they could have been used later on, when the other side already had them too. Leading potentially to a nuclear war instead of the stall we got in the cold war.
I mean this is ridiculous you'd literally be arguing that our universe is the best universe and at no point can anyone's death ever have made an improvement.
If you want a nuclear demonstration to scare the world you can arrange that. Bob dies by nuclear explosion. Indeed having the Allies move into the USSR would be bad how exactly? You happy with the USSR 70 years of suffering and lower living standards?
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+1] Dai-Gurren Brigade (a day later)
You're asking for a utilitarian Light, that's not gonna be someone who uses the notebook less.
I was thinking of someone who uses it less but in a more focused manner. Most importantly, someone who doesn't do the stupidest thing Light did: let other people find out something weird was happening at all.
Ok don't move the goalposts. Killed Hitler would have immediately halted the war between Germany and the Allies saving millions.
I'm just saying I'm not 100% sure of that. But even if I gave you that, not every war works that way. Who would you have needed to kill to stop the Vietnam War, for example?
I mean this is ridiculous you'd literally be arguing that our universe is the best universe and at no point can anyone's death ever have made an improvement.
I'm not, it's more that I don't think it's easy to predict whose death would. Which is the biggest problem with utilitarianism: a lot of very important decisions often taken on other people's skins based on limited information and our very limited predictive abilities. With a very high danger of just doing whatever the fuck you feel like doing and rationalising it away.
Indeed having the Allies move into the USSR would be bad how exactly? You happy with the USSR 70 years of suffering and lower living standards?
Uhhh, you do know how things went for Germans on that front, yeah? How pretty much most of the victims of WW2 died there? Any idea of how many dead soldiers and civilians are "enough" for you to decide perhaps it's time to calm the fuck down a bit?
u/RMcD94 [+1] (a day later)
I was thinking of someone who uses it less but in a more focused manner. Most importantly, someone who doesn't do the stupidest thing Light did: let other people find out something weird was happening at all.
I mean that's an argument about the utility of universal religion versus not. I can't help but think that any replacement religion I could come up with would be better than female genital mutilation for example.
I'm just saying I'm not 100% sure of that. But even if I gave you that, not every war works that way. Who would you have needed to kill to stop the Vietnam War, for example?
Sure, not every war. But it's not even just killing people. It's having leaders die to specific deaths and say specific things before they die. You can have far right groups assassinate the President to move the country leftward. You can have the President be talking about a very specific thing as he dies.
I'm not, it's more that I don't think it's easy to predict whose death would. Which is the biggest problem with utilitarianism: a lot of very important decisions often taken on other people's skins based on limited information and our very limited predictive abilities. With a very high danger of just doing whatever the fuck you feel like doing and rationalising it away.
Well yes I agree. A utilitarian is literally saying that every decision they make they believe that it's the best for universal maximum utility. There have been bad acts caused by utilitarianism paired with ignorance, murdering all them starlings for example.
Uhhh, you do know how things went for Germans on that front, yeah? How pretty much most of the victims of WW2 died there? Any idea of how many dead soldiers and civilians are "enough" for you to decide perhaps it's time to calm the fuck down a bit?
Considering I can assassinate all of USSR high command I think I would be pretty happy with three or four million dead to avoid SEVENTY YEARS OF 300 MILLION PEOPLE SUFFERING. Besides which even ignoring my magic superpowers the soviets would be fucked with allies and germany on them and it would be a much easier war.
I can only think of the potential heights that could have been reached in human standards of living by democracy running free around the entire Northern Hemisphere.
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+2] Dai-Gurren Brigade (a day later)
I can only think of the potential heights that could have been reached in human standards of living by democracy running free around the entire Northern Hemisphere.
Actually considering how after the push to compete with the USSR faded out suddenly the USA seemed to start slacking off and cutting funding to NASA and such - whereas the power of dick-measuring competitions with the Soviets had brought them to the Moon less than 20 years earlier - I'm not so sure that would be how it worked.
About the Soviet Union, suffering and poverty happen in a lot of places for a lot of reasons. Russia's relationship with democracy stays kinda flimsy, they keep voting in horrible autocrats - after the fall of USSR we already had Yeltsin, who was pretty shady, and now Putin's firmly in power. So one has to wonder if forcefully removing communism would have done much. Without considering the risks to life on Earth had that war become a nuclear one...
Look, no point in going into alternative histories too much. All I mean is, that sort of "I'm sure if only I kill X everything will be better" attitude is exactly what I would expect from the character I mentioned - and exactly the one that I'd expect to blow in his face. To put it simply, I think a Death Note is too blunt a tool. Having the ability to just kill people makes it very limited, in fact, and likely often much better at making stuff worse than improving it.
u/RMcD94 [+1] (a day later)
Actually considering how after the push to compete with the USSR faded out suddenly the USA seemed to start slacking off and cutting funding to NASA and such - whereas the power of dick-measuring competitions with the Soviets had brought them to the Moon less than 20 years earlier - I'm not so sure that would be how it worked.
I mean I'm not saying that it would require no management (it might not to be better) but the last twenty years after the USSR fell the world living standards have improved way more than they did from 1945 to 1990 so...
This is literally an odds game. What is the probability a war with the USSR (before nukes) would have resulted in a net gain for mankind? Except that you're in a position where you can nip a lot of problems in the bud (North Korea etc).
About the Soviet Union, suffering and poverty happen in a lot of places for a lot of reasons. Russia's relationship with democracy stays kinda flimsy, they keep voting in horrible autocrats - after the fall of USSR we already had Yeltsin, who was pretty shady, and now Putin's firmly in power. So one has to wonder if forcefully removing communism would have done much. Without considering the risks to life on Earth had that war become a nuclear one...
Yeah, I think forcibly removing communism would have been much better. I mean we have one example of a communist country that made its own way to democracy and then we have an example of a country forced to take on democracy. Who would you say has better living standards Russia or Germany?
Look, no point in going into alternative histories too much. All I mean is, that sort of "I'm sure if only I kill X everything will be better" attitude is exactly what I would expect from the character I mentioned - and exactly the one that I'd expect to blow in his face. To put it simply, I think a Death Note is too blunt a tool. Having the ability to just kill people makes it very limited, in fact, and likely often much better at making stuff worse than improving it.
By sure I mean I have a high confidence interval. If I came across as meaning sure as in 100% then I did not intend that. Since that's all anyone can hope for that's what I'm going to operate on.
It doesn't just have the ability to kill people. It has a global telecommunication feature built in and mind control and a dozen other things. Even if it had the ability to just kill people by your own admission it is a tool. The use of a tool is better than random chance.
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+2] Dai-Gurren Brigade (a day later)
Yeah, I think forcibly removing communism would have been much better. I mean we have one example of a communist country that made its own way to democracy and then we have an example of a country forced to take on democracy. Who would you say has better living standards Russia or Germany?
That kind of discounts the fact that Russia and Germany are completely different countries with different natural resources, geographical positioning, culture, history, etc.
Germany was already an industrial power before WW2. That was how it managed to be so dangerous, in fact. Russia by comparison was traditionalist, backwards, and only counting on sheer force of numbers and territory. Let's take a look now, and more than 100 years after the communist revolution... yup, they're basically both back there. So maybe there's more in play than just one or another government.
It doesn't just have the ability to kill people. It has a global telecommunication feature built in and mind control and a dozen other things. Even if it had the ability to just kill people by your own admission it is a tool. The use of a tool is better than random chance.
Yes but none of that can be used without killing people. So either you start sacrificing random people to use the DN for other purposes, or you use it mostly to kill people. Sure, you can kill a dictator after having him give a speech to the country or nominate a successor (as long as you can explain that without writing their name directly), but without inner knowledge of how their government works, that's not very likely to succeed.
u/RMcD94 [+1] (a day later)
Even if your logic about Germany is true that means that there is even more reason to invade Russia since it needs outside help
The dictator publishes a complete insight into his own country before dying, including recommendations on whose death would solve things. And again it's really not hard for anyone anywhere to distinguish moderates from extremists.
u/HeroOfOldIron [+4] (2 hours later)
The one fic I've seen that comes the closest to being what you're describing is If it's not me, it's you. During the arc where Light volunteers to be imprisoned, he comes to the conclusion that the only two people who could possibly be Kira are himself or L, and the author goes to great lengths to both show his entire chain of logic as well as expand the characterization of everyone else on the investigation team.
u/Silver_Swift [+3] (7 hours later)
I kicked an idea like this around a while back (I like thinking up stories that I'm never going to write).
It's tricky because, as you say, a good version of Light would probably just burn the death note or only keep it around for emergencies. I settled on giving the death note to someone who used it to become a highly effective eco-terrorist because he believed it was the only way to keep the earth habitable for the future. Not a good guy by any stretch of the imagination, but at least someone who had a noble goal and a reasonable plan to achieve it (while at the same time taking better care to hide his identity). There is an interesting puzzle in how to use a death note in a optimal manner given that you don't mind murdering a whole bunch of people, but do care about keeping your identity a secret.
u/WalterTFD [+6] (3 hours later)
I think the interesting character to make a rationalist in Death Note is L. Like, Kira has the cheat codes. A rationalist version of him rejects his street level terrorism, takes over the world via holding its leaders hostage, and implements whatever he wants.
A rationalist playing L's hand (you are anonymous, trusted by some law enforcement personnel, your opponent is magic bullshit) is much more interesting.
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+14] Dai-Gurren Brigade (4 hours later)
But, well, isn't L basically already a rationalist? Yeah, he occasionally follows his gut instinct more, but if anything, those lead him to Kira faster in the story.
As for this:
A rationalist version of him rejects his street level terrorism, takes over the world via holding its leaders hostage, and implements whatever he wants.
Not sure why "rationalist" in this case seems to imply also "even more psychopathic than he already is". Light doesn't do that not because he doesn't realise he could, but because he does have a moral code. It's shitty and he cares less and less about it as time goes on, but it's there. He believes in law and order. My idea here was more about "what would someone who's both more ethical and has less delusions of godhood than Light do". Of course, if the DN went to someone as smart as Light but with even less moral quandaries, well, the world would be fucked.
u/WalterTFD [+3] (7 hours later)
RatLight would also believe in law & order, but lack the fetishism of their existing configuration. Punishing those who defy dumb laws instead of fixing them is something he'd get over.
u/derefr [+2] (14 hours later)
I would expect that you’d get better results not from looking for Death Note fan fiction per se, but rather looking for speculative fiction surrounding the uses of assassination markets.