47 KiB
[RT] [HF] Mother of Learning Chapter 84: Powerless
-
Author: u/Xtraordinaire Team Glimglam*
-
URL: https://www.fictionpress.com/s/2961893/84/Mother-of-Learning
-
Score: 218
-
Created: 2018-04-29T21:25:20
Post:
Comments:
u/WarningInsanityBelow [+36] (59 minutes later)
Why did Zorian get a critical failure when trying to convince Xvim? Even if he couldn't persuade him right there, he should have been able to tell Xvim the instructions for some super rare spells, including some which are unique to Z&Z like the modified Gate spell or the shield spell with ridiculous shaping requirements. This should have at least been enough to get Xvim to take his story seriously.
For that matter Zorian managed to convince Xvim of the time loop before without access to advanced knowledge/magic, though that took a couple of days and he didn't ask Xvim to cast any spells.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+33] Father of Learning (an hour later)
He also has Xvim's "my memories have been deleted" code and can straight up tell him that he spends the first few months screwing with his students.
u/thrawnca [+41] Carbon-based biped (an hour later)
He probably can't retrieve that code without using magic.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+9] (an hour later)
Oh, good point. There's hardly a reason to keep it fresh in mind all the time.
u/icesharkk [+3] (3 hours later)
No, thanks to the spider's mind training doesn't zorian have perfect recall?
u/thrawnca [+31] Carbon-based biped (3 hours later)
doesn't zorian have perfect recall?
Sure, if he could use mind magic.
u/None [+9] (5 hours later)
[deleted]
u/CeruleanTresses [+25] (5 hours later)
I wish the chapter had explored that more. Even though he only started developing his mind magic during the time loop, he's had the innate empathy thing for his entire life, right? Seems like losing that would be like losing his sense of hearing or smell.
u/thrawnca [+8] Carbon-based biped (6 hours later)
Hmm...it's possible that passive abilities like empathy still worked, he just couldn't deliberately shape mana without putting unacceptable stress on his soul.
/u/nobody103 Can you confirm?
u/nobody103 [+20] (12 hours later)
Passive abilities would still work, but they'd be erratic and unreliable. Zorian purposely kept his empathy off for this reason.
u/distrofijus [+1] (a day later)
Any particular reason for duo not cooking up additional soul recovery potions or using time dilation chambers (they used it for quite many times and while mind magic was probably involved in first tries, they should have ironed out all the kinks how to get access to it without resorting to mind magic) to speed up recovery?
u/nobody103 [+5] (a day later)
Once they were both conscious, they could use the personal soul magic exercises I mentioned also in the chapter to speed up recovery, so there was no point in bothering with the potions anymore. As for time dilation chambers, they are very tricky to access without magic and if they make even the slightest mistake they're stuck in a place they can't get out of. So they decided not to bother with it.
u/CeruleanTresses [+3] (6 hours later)
I don't think the narration in this chapter does the "telling us how the person Zorian's talking to feels" thing, so I assume the empathy wasn't working, but then again I don't remember whether that convention persisted after Zorian figured out the empathy was an actual thing.
u/jaghataikhan [+1] Primarch of the White Scars (6 hours later)
Yep exactly one of those things you don't realize how much you miss until it's gone
u/notagiantdolphin [+5] (a day later)
Imagine how horrible it would be if he was like the Matriarch and ran his brain like an experimental multi-threaded supercomputer.
Hell, remember that computer that programmed its own chip to take advantage of minute flaws and variations in the chip to design something 'perfect' for the assigned task? And touching any part of it ruined the whole thing? At her level your mind is probably like that, and 'coming down' to mortal levels might drive you utterly mad.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+21] (an hour later)
I agree---I found Zorian's inability to convince Xvim extremely odd. Xvim's code, Alanic and Lukav's deaths, in-depth knowledge that only arch mages would have---and indeed knowledge that is based on novel research like the gate spell that can be casted without help from the destination, the advanced shield spell, Zorian's spell formulas and item schematics . . .
I feel even without magic, it would be enough to at least not get dismissed instantly by Xvim. But perhaps Xvim was so incredulous so quickly that Zorian got no chance to prove himself further.
/u/nobody103
u/nobody103 [+45] (an hour later)
Zorian may have grown a just a little bit too set in his routines when it comes to convincing Xvim about the time loop, and acted too quickly and aggressively, not realizing not not being able to back his words with magic makes him much less credible to people's eyes...
Or that's what I was thinking, at least. Maybe I just didn't think things through well enough. I'm not infallible and it happens sometimes. Since it's not critical to the plot of the chapter, I ask for your suspension of disbelief in the matter.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+18] Father of Learning (2 hours later)
It's not that, I suppose, I guess I'm just sad about the missed opportunity with having one last hoorah with his time-looped classmates before we leave, and by that I mean they get more than a sentence saying that they did so.
u/nobody103 [+24] (2 hours later)
I did consider writing more about their interactions in the chapter, but it wouldn't have moved the plot forward and I do need to cut something. 25 restarts is a lot of time to cover.
u/eSPiaLx [+28] (3 hours later)
I think if you ever publish MoL in a novel format such scenes would be a great way to slow down the pace a bit. Right now we're having breathers forced upon us by the 3-4 week gaps between chapters so non-plot chapters will make the wait doubly as long. But without those, a chapter with zorian re-approaching his classmates could provide great insight into his character growth and would actually end up helping the pacing massively imo.
u/mp3max [+15] (3 hours later)
Not just his classmates, but his family issues as well. They may not be important for the plot either but it would be nice to see some more of it.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+4] Father of Learning (2 hours later)
Can't you just keep putting a chapter out every few weeks forever?
u/hallo_friendos [+9] (5 hours later)
Please no. I want to recommend this book to a bunch of people but none of them want to read it until it's done...
I guess that's why sequels are a thing.
u/None [+8] (a day later)
[deleted]
u/kaukamieli [+8] (a day later)
Meh, I wanna see a prequel of the Emperor going through this shit. Probably still wasn,t a cakewalk.
u/SnowGN [+3] (4 days later)
I'll agree with /u/eSPiaLx that it would be very, very nice to get some slice of life chapters/sidestories to MoL. However, I also agree with you - I'm eager to see the story move onto the next stage after the end of the time loop.
I actually enjoy Zorian's school setting and classmates to an unreasonable degree. I'd like to see much more of it - but not at the expense of moving the plot forward. The time loop has gone on for long enough. Just something to keep in mind for the future when you're looking at publishing MoL - a few sidestories would do a lot for fleshing out this world and the side characters. I'd especially like to see more of the wolf-girl in their class.
u/GodKiller999 [+2] (3 days later)
Arc 3 likely be better off if it was divided in two (if there's ever big edits for a more official release), some parts end up rushed otherwise to the detriment of the story/pacing otherwise.
u/Rheklr [+1] (2 hours later)
Nice as that would've been, it'd have killed the pacing of the story.
u/kaukamieli [+1] (a day later)
He could have been aggressive. He could have just told him all the fancy spells Xvim used in a fight against the Lich. Who else would believe he can do a gate to misdirect beams?
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+0] (an hour later)
Yah, no worries. :)
u/Dismalward [+11] (an hour later)
You seem forget Zach tried multiple times to convince Xvim and he failed so it shouldn't be farfetched Zorian is failing without the code (which he can't retrieve without magic and obviously doesn't remember it) or displaying magic.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (2 hours later)
Very true.
u/Dismalward [+8] (an hour later)
Zach never convince Xvim in his many restarts and Zorian doesn't remember the code so its not unreasonable to get a failure in convincing Xvim without the code nor be able to demonstrate the magic he taught Zorian.
u/Rheklr [+7] (an hour later)
If what Zorian was saying was true, then he should have something from Xvim for the convincing. That he doesn't is concerning, and as for the information - I doubt Xvim doesn't have his fair share of enemies, and of which could've prepped Zorian in an attempt to lure Xvim into a vulnerable position. No-one gets to be old and powerful without being paranoid.
u/Dismalward [+5] (an hour later)
Well Zach never was able to convince Xvim so not really surprising Zorian can't convince him without any hard evidence since Xvim never really gave Zorian anything beyond the code to convince him without magic.
u/AmeteurOpinions [+32] Finally, everyone was working together. (18 minutes later)
Zorian is insanely lucky that those soul cures worked on Zach without a hitch.
u/Midknightz [+22] (31 minutes later)
How so? They're just normal very expensive soul recovery potions. Don't see how they were extremely risky.
u/None [+21] (56 minutes later)
[deleted]
u/thrawnca [+17] Carbon-based biped (an hour later)
Eh, I'm sure that such potions are not widely known, but Zorian has repeatedly ransacked the mind of a thoroughly unethical necromancer - and a research-focused one, at that.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+23] (an hour later)
I agree that this solution makes sense---at the beginning of the chapter I was thinking, "I wonder if Sudomir's mind had any information germane to healing soul damage." I would, however, suggest that during the final editing process of the book, this information about soul healing be moved to a much earlier chapter. Chekov and all that. /u/nobody103
u/Dismalward [+7] (2 hours later)
How about waiting for all the question until AFTER the novel is finished? You keep tagging the author about all these little details which kinda ruins the mystery of the story or figuring it out yourself.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+1] (2 hours later)
You make a good point. I did hesitate to tag the author, however my memory and organizational methods are entirely inadequate and I don't trust myself to bring this point up at a later date. I know the author puts typos into a master document for use once the novel is over. I'm tagging the author with this comment as it's related to that editing process---indeed this comment was not a question at all but rather a recommendation.
To the author: I apologize if I'm being annoying. I don't have a good sense for these things.
u/None [+13] (2 hours later)
[deleted]
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+3] (2 hours later)
That's a really good idea.
u/AmeteurOpinions [+7] Finally, everyone was working together. (an hour later)
Not only that, but the fact that they were reliable for both Zach’s unique, slightly altered soul and presumably very unique injury throws me out of the story.
Really, it’s just how incredibly quickly the story skips past “so I gave him the potions and left” without Zorian showing the slightest concern for its possible failure.
u/RiOrius [+36] (an hour later)
Zach's soul has a marker on it, but nothing indicates that that's super rare. And their soul injuries seem to be pretty standard "something blew up on my soul" kind of issues: no indication that QI's soul bomb had unique effects.
Really if you're okay with generic healing potions that work on various physical injuries, I can't see how this is that different.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+12] (2 hours later)
The source of damage for Zach and Zorian was the same, so I feel that by examining his own soul, Zorian was able to make remedies tailored to the damage. On the other hand, the potions could also just be aids to quicken the soul's natural recovery process rather than treatments for the specific type of damage sustained---analogous to the effect of good nutrition on the body.
u/OchreOgre_AugerAugur [+3] (a day later)
I could see that if Zorian only had access to/tried a single soul remedy and it worked. But he used three different ones, presumably to cover as wide as spectrum as possible. For all we know two of the three could have been complete duds, spiritual placebos, and the last potion did all the heavy lifting in regards of accelerating the natural soul-recovery process.
The point is that Zorian didn't gamble all or nothing on a single cure, and it is more that reasonable to expect Sudomir to collect various methods of soul repair and have tested their efficacy given his plan and hobbies.
u/thrawnca [+8] Carbon-based biped (an hour later)
It sounds like they weren't so much meant to fix Zach's soul as speed up his natural recovery, which sounds a lot less risky.
u/GoXDS [+5] (34 minutes later)
adding onto Midknightz, Zorian selected potions specifically without risk. could be as simple as that
u/wassname [+4] The Culture (7 hours later)
And lucky he could remember, I imagine most of potion recipes are in his notes instead of his memory. And he can't access his notes.
u/azeazezar [+2] Chaos Legion (2 days later)
This i think is not luck. Just common sense and foresight. He did know that if he needed these potions he wouldn't have access to his notes.
u/Grasmel [+59] (an hour later)
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+20] (an hour later)
My reaction precisely. Below 7k words always leaves me feeling like, "Eh? But the chapter just started!"
I think it's also due to how quickly things progressed through the chapter.
u/PurposefulZephyr [+68] (45 minutes later)
"Oh no! Zorian is dying!"
"Oh wait, he's recovered (mostly)."
"Oh no! Zach is missing, his soul damaged beyond compare!"
"Oh wait, single spell tracked him, and soul cure worked with no long-term effects."This was underwhelming, frankly. Any potential danger was quickly hand-waved away, and the only consequence they suffered was losing a bunch of restarts.
Back to the grind, I guess. Not that I mind- it's just a shame this fearful moment didn't last longer. It was a change of pace, and I thought we'd see more fun interactions between Zorian and others.
u/thrawnca [+30] Carbon-based biped (an hour later)
Zorian is dying!
"You don't look dead."
"I got better."
u/xamueljones [+14] My arch-enemy is entropy (2 hours later)
"You don't look dead."
The reports of my death were greatly exaggerated.
u/Xtraordinaire [+47] Team Glimglam (57 minutes later)
Yeah, I was expecting a little tidbit or two about some of their schoolmates during the no-magic restarts, or something similar.
u/mp3max [+34] (an hour later)
Yeah, pretty much this. While I get that we are near the end of the story and the plot must move forward, I really miss those earlier scenes of how things happened differently thanks to their insight, more specifically, the different interactions with their classmates.
u/sicutumbo [+19] (2 hours later)
Yeah, being unable to cast spells was too harsh of a result. There's no way for that to be a reoccurring obstacle and still have the story progress. If the damage was less severe, then it might have been able to be permanent, but as it is there isn't any way for Z&Z to do anything significant if their ability to do magic is significantly impaired.
Maybe if the damage was something like having constant bodily pains? Or some form of numbness, partial paralysis, or even memory loss. Those could have been things that stayed throughout the story, and acted as a real consequence for the previous chapter's mistake. Even if the damage slowly healed over time, or they needed to learn something to fix it, it would have been better. Instead there wasn't any way for them to do anything meaningful while they healed, meaning that from the reader's perspective not much time was spent on the consequences.
As an alternative, what if Z&Z needed to use crutches for the next few chapters, but they otherwise could function normally? It would be a real consequence that the reader would be reminded of, and very clearly see the results of that.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+42] (2 hours later)
I agree a more permanent or longer lasting effect would have been nice, but to be fair, Zorian is so accomplished that I wasn't surprised by the result. Zach would have been screwed out of commission for longer if Zorian hadn't been so proficient with soul magic, alchemy, and had collected information from someone like Sudomir who is well-versed in soul damage. Zorian worked long and hard for those skills---like fifty chapters---so I'm okay with him knowing what to do. It may seem like what QI did to them was dealt with anti-climactically, but I feel this chapter was the natural culmination of years of disciplined training.
u/Quetzhal [+23] (2 hours later)
Moreover, soul mutilation on this scale has happened to Z&Z before - that time they just spent several restarts unconscious. I think this is just us being shown how much they've grown. They might not have been able to use magic, but they didn't lose any restarts this time around.
u/sicutumbo [+15] (4 hours later)
That could have been demonstrated by having the ailment normally be permanent, but through Zorian's alchemy he makes it heal in a few months. The author controls everything anyways, he can have Zorian improve the situation from "permanent" to "a few months" just as easily as he made Zach's ailment go from "he may not wake up for weeks" to "he'll be fine in a little bit".
It doesn't matter how skilled a character is, if the author wants the audience to take injuries or setbacks seriously, we need to actually see the negative consequences of said setbacks. As it is, we were shown about as much story time spent on QI's attack's recovery as we had for Z&Z recovering from the injuries the Grey Hunter inflicted on them.
The number of restarts remaining decreased, but that's a classic example of "tell don't show". A number that barely any audience member was tracking anyways got decreased by some amount. The plans didn't change, their ability to enact those plans didn't change, and not only did Z&Z not have any permanent consequences, they even have improved due to the injury.
I know that we can't know the contents of the rest of the story at this point, but would the rest of the story have been significantly changed if the initial number of restarts remaining when they started tracking had been 5 fewer, and this whole subplot of QI injuring them was skipped? The thing with being injured with the Sword Divers made Zorian substantially less aggressive in gaining Aranean knowledge, and gave him a motive for revenge. He also started carrying around better suicide bomb things. The result of the current injury seems to be "Hey, let's try mind magic this time", something that would have been about equally likely to be thought of beforehand.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+14] (4 hours later)
!delta. I don't feel the same gravitas with this as I felt with the Sword Divers death, which I still remember quite well. Although I will note that Zorian said without his soul and mind training, the damage could well have been permanent as his soul restructured his mind to integrate his loop memories.
In all honestly, though, I feel we'd be talking about this differently if these previous five restarts had occurred over three or four chapters where significant work was done despite not being able to do magic themselves. That would feel like serious consequences had occurred. Maybe it could go into depth about convincing Xvim sans magic---or perhaps Ilsa instead---then using whomever they recruit to help rescue Alanic and Lukath. Then they could find more to join their cause who would help them move goals forward in unexpected ways. It would be a five-month masterclass in minioning.
u/sicutumbo [+8] (4 hours later)
I don't feel the same gravitas with this as I felt with the Sword Divers death, which I still remember quite well.
Precisely the point. It didn't really change anything.
In all honestly, though, I feel we'd be talking about this differently if these previous five restarts had occurred over three or four chapters where significant work was done despite not being able to do magic themselves. That would feel like serious consequences had occurred. Maybe it could go into depth about convincing Xvim sans magic---or perhaps Ilsa instead---then using whomever they recruit to help rescue Alanic and Lukath. Then they could find more to join their cause who would help them move goals forward in unexpected ways. It would be a five-month masterclass in minioning.
While that is one solution to the problem of this chapter, I don't think it's a great solution. It would kill the pacing, and I don't think that taking a multiple update break (translated into multiple real months of time) from using magic in a story where the magic is one of the most interesting focuses. Maybe if they had never been able to convince any of the people around them before of the time loop, and they had a few restarts where they focused on doing so rather than training, but at this point it would be really slow. It's barely even mentioned at this point how they convince their teachers of the time loop, so going back to spending a lot of time doing so would be annoying.
That said, I do commend you on offering a way of showing real consequences to Z&Z not being prepared for QI's attack. And I think it would have worked fairly well earlier on in the story. Just not at this point.
u/Duck_Giblets [+7] (3 hours later)
To me it seemed the author rushed it a bit. Shorter than other chapters, nothing really of note happened. Read like a run down and condensed version of what happened.
u/akaltyn [+6] (6 hours later)
Yeah it read more like a summary of a chapter than an actual chapter, its one thing being told that someone spent a month struggling, but it doesn't have much impact if we aren't shown it
u/Schuano [+5] (7 hours later)
I think it's a headfake.
They assumed that QI blew himself up in a suicide strike to hurt them. He did.
They also assume QI had no way to send himself messages in the time loop.
I suspect that he figured out a way to send some information to himself.
u/Xtraordinaire [+13] Team Glimglam (49 seconds later)
*looks at the chapter title
Dun dun dun!
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+13] Father of Learning (46 minutes later)
This is book six Harry Potter. Serious Shit^TM is coming next.
u/reddithanG [+11] (33 minutes later)
What key do they still need after the crown?
u/sicutumbo [+15] (37 minutes later)
The scepter.
u/Xtraordinaire [+13] Team Glimglam (an hour later)
Also the dagger.
u/GriffinJ [+8] (38 minutes later)
The staff I think. It's mentioned at the very end of the chapter.
u/SevereCircle [+2] (14 hours later)
There's no special order I'm aware of, it's just a question of difficulty of getting access to them.
u/GodKiller999 [+10] (31 minutes later)
That was a serious loss, but thankfully they didn't receive any permanent damage. If they manage to beat QI I'm sure there's a lot they could learn from his skeleton and whatever items he had on him at the time.
u/thrawnca [+9] Carbon-based biped (22 hours later)
Huh.
Unrelated to this chapter, I just realised what RR was probably up to, optimising the invasion over and over again.
If we assume that he owned that robe (since he had it easily available at the start of the month when he attacked Zach), and is thus an inner-circle cultist, then he actually wouldn't care all that much about maximising damage. But it didn't take him long to drop off tips to the invaders, and a more effective invasion would give him more time to work on the cult's true objective.
Remember how Zorian didn't think that their mind magic would be good enough to actually overpower the primordial? What if they had someone who could try it over and over again in different ways, recording what worked well and what didn't?
We now have a motive for initiating the loop early. Not a divine failsafe to contain the primordial, as some have suggested, but a secure laboratory to determine how best to break it out and put it on a leash.
u/I-want-pulao [+9] (23 hours later)
However, each time that the primordial is released, the loop ends. So isn't that a terrible way to go about trying to control the primordial?
u/FlameSparks [+1] (a day later)
But RR had access to the master key, I think. He may of been able to keep the loop from activating for a few more seconds.
Also the ritual they are using may not be the most efficient at either breaking or controlling the primordial but with the loops RR could find a better one.
u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
But RR had access to the master key, I think
Very unlikely. It's pretty hard to gather the five pieces, especially with QI wearing one, and RR didn't have to deal with the Gate being barred. I gather that the Controller doesn't normally need the Key in order to leave.
I'd agree, though, that it would be possible to test control magic and experiment on the primordial without completely letting it out.
u/jiffyjuff [+7] (a day later)
I don't think the primordial itself is looped. It's pretty clear that as powerful the Sovereign('s?) Gate is, it's not strong enough to loop anything more than what's within this "earth plane": spiritual planes, and therefore probably primordial dimensions, are off limits. When Silverlake inspected the summoning setup, she said that it's going to the same place, but from a different perspective: thus it's likely that connecting to a primordial within the loop actually connects to the linear-time extra-loop primordial, and the "different perspective" is because the loop dimension is located in a different meta-spatial position. The primordial is probably really confused about why these femtosecond-long gates keep pinging it at incredible frequency.
On that note, I strongly suspect that the reason for loop crash isn't something inherent to the primordial, but the time-speed differential between the primordial-dimension-body and the loop world.
u/CrystalineAxiom [+1] (a month later)
On that note, I strongly suspect that the reason for loop crash isn't something inherent to the primordial, but the time-speed differential between the primordial-dimension-body and the loop world.
Remember that Primordials contain an entire world inside them. So unlike measly human scale pocket dimension creation, it's possible that a primordial entering the time loop stresses out the Sovereign Gate and causes an automatic shutdown and restart in the same way that the time acceleration chamber shuts down when they try to bring the Imperial Orb with them.
u/jiffyjuff [+1] (a month later)
I totally agree, and I think that's going to be the canon explanation. The clear parallel with the time acceleration chamber and the orb is too strong to ignore.
u/Xtraordinaire [+1] Team Glimglam (a day later)
That would explain why RR was a lousy mind mage, yeah. He has honed one skill, how to defeat the primordial, but nothing else. That doesn't explain why Zach is a looper though. Is he simply integral to the loop, and has no choice but to participate? Seems weird.
u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
I thought the reason RR was weak was because he was using unstructured mind magic to bypass any possible marker safeguards. Being non-psychic, what he displayed was actually quite impressive. With structured mind magic, I imagine he would show much better results.
u/Xtraordinaire [+2] Team Glimglam (a day later)
I was referring to his encounter with Zorian. He seemed to have trouble with an unrefined mind blast. Granted, he had several bullets in his stomach at the time, but still.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
Yeah, I was talking about the same encounter. Sure his unstructured mind magic wasn't much, because he's not psychic. But even that much actually represents a lot of hard work. And I'd imagine his primary focus was structured magic.
u/None [+1] (2 days later)
[deleted]
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
Blood magic enhancements would be reset by the loop. Which is great for research and safe experimentation, but no good directly.
u/CrystalineAxiom [+1] (a month later)
Blood magic enhancements affect the soul so they wouldn't be reset. That's why they effectively consume a piece of your total mana reserves.
u/GriffinJ [+8] (40 minutes later)
It feels slightly odd that they've never revisited the coin strategy that Zorian used to beat QI the first time. Sure it's unlikely to work but they know it does banish him to his phylactery on contact if they can get him to touch it.
u/valeskas [+14] (48 minutes later)
never revisited the coin strategy
Search for word "coin" in chapter 80.
u/Dismalward [+9] (an hour later)
they just dismissed it because it was unlikely to work but that doesn't mean it won't work. they are essentially gonna do the same thing with the whole mind thing since lich might be banished to his pylactery if he senses might tampering.
u/thrawnca [+11] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)
they just dismissed it because it was unlikely to work but that doesn't mean it won't work.
What would it take to convince you that it won't work? Testing it? Zach has. He's tried to throw objects at QI a bunch of times, and QI literally handwaves them away.
And as for having him underestimate them, to even make the attempt, they would have to appear as nonthreatening as regular academy students. Which means shutting down some portion - quite possibly a large portion - of their activities, since those activities were enough to actually attract QI's attention and have him seek them out. So making any realistic attempt at tricking him into grabbing a thrown object has a significant opportunity cost. It's not at all a free shot that they're ignoring; it's a time and resources sink with no realistic prospect of a payoff.
Mind magic is a much more feasible approach. Since he's apparently not a psychic (based on his attack on Xvim), his only adequate defence against Zorian is Mind Blank. If Zach can dispel that, then QI can't just wave his hand and push Zorian out like he could knock away a soul coin. Either he goes mind-to-mind with Zorian and likely loses, or he evacuates and likely drops the crown.
u/Dismalward [+4] (3 hours later)
The only reason qi met them was because their activities concerned him. They wasted multiple loop not trying it out in which he wasnt suspicious and I repeatedly emphasize they don't need to throw the ring. Literally said it in bold and you still going on about them doing it themselves.
The author most likely wants it done THIER way and not some anticlimactic coin trickery which has no evidence that wouldn't work within the rules of the universe other than them stating "Oh it won't work". They never even tried with other ppl and utterly dismisses it because of it breaking the authors narrative. Like I said, use the lich's arrogance against him like the first time it worked since it's not like the lich is going to be wise to the trick across loops. They don't need to beat the lich at all just get the crown and they are finally understanding that this chapter instead of all the time wasted before.
u/GodKiller999 [+5] (3 days later)
QI can see their souls, he'd instantly see that they weren't mere academy students, which Zorian was back when he used the coin trick and convincing a proxy to do it in their place would likely prove... difficult.
u/Dismalward [+2] (3 days later)
They have mind magic and near-unlimited resources at their disposal. Pretty certain finding a willing (or unwilling) patsy would be easy
u/GodKiller999 [+2] (3 days later)
Actively using magic would likely be noticeable, making it seamless without Zorian actively doing something would require deep mind modification to the victim, which is something he's unwilling to do (though I myself believe he should train the skill exactly for these kind of events).
u/Dismalward [+2] (3 days later)
he can just give it to someone and tell them it works on liches. i don't mind if the author makes it impossible but they never attempted to try instead of doing nothing at the end of the multiple wasted restarts(making the coin shouldnt be too hard and just give it to someone and hope for the best). if it works then awesome but if it doesnt its not like they invested too heavily
u/GodKiller999 [+2] (3 days later)
The someone they gave the coin to would have to be positively insane to believe them (facing the lich is ludicrously dangerous, hence the need for mind magic) and then have good enough acting to replicate the situation Zorian was in (not to mention doing something interesting enough for QI to take notice, but not so much so that he'd consider them a danger).
u/sicutumbo [+3] (2 hours later)
That doesn't rely on getting him to touch a physical object, which is the main obstacle. Offensive spells can punch through defenses and generally aren't affected by telekinesis, and it's been mentioned that QI is is proficient with unstructured telekinesis. A coin or other similar object would be blocked by almost any defensive spell, and could be easily deflected by almost any spell including the telekinesis mentioned above.
u/Dismalward [+5] (2 hours later)
Well they got him by relying on his arrogance so it won't be farfetched to try the same thing again but with even more vulnerable target since it doesn't NEED to be them to flip the coin to the lich. They could even mind-control someone on lich's side or a student. They should've done it way before when they knew lich had the crown instead of doing nothing at the end of the loop where lich invades.
Tbh Its an easy solution thats dismissed because the author wants the lich to be defeated in their own way instead of relying on that coin trick instead of just doing that at the end of the loop instead of wasting so many loop doing nothing to the lich even by proxy.
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+8] (2 hours later)
Maybe you're right, but I never got the sense that Z&Z were able to spy on QI enough to compel someone to touch him with a coin. To agree with you, however, it would have been cool to see Z&Z spend time trying similar tactics unsuccessfully a couple times just to convince the reader that they weren't overlooking these kinds of strategies.
u/None [+7] (53 minutes later)
[deleted]
u/throwawayIWGWPC [+10] (an hour later)
This is a great idea: If Zorian can render QI mentally powerless for the split second it takes someone to toss a coin at him, then QI is out of commission until he can find a new body. This would be enough to get the crown and dagger in the loop. Out of the loop, this solution is a good fall-back if they can't find a way to end QI permanently---though it might only buy them a little time as we know from a previous chapter that QI has extra bodies nearby.
u/FlameSparks [+5] (11 hours later)
Considering QI has a spare body waiting in the building he direct ZZ to, I assume he has a lot of spares.
u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (an hour later)
Typos:
their soul somehow synchronized with their body/their souls somehow synchronized with their bodies
make sure it doesn't happen/make sure it didn't happen
expected Quatach-Ichl use/expected Quatach-Ichl to use
this wouldn't as easy/this wouldn't be as easy
Tesen Zveri, Zach's legal guardian was/Tesen Zveri, Zach's legal guardian, was
anyone who has any information/anyone who had any information
What if Zach had really/What if Zach has really
well within our right/well within our rights
presenting an official-looking authorization documents/presenting official-looking authorization documents
give them free reign/give them free rein
ended up a worse state/ended up in a worse state
made than a far riskier/made that a far riskier
the other a blood red/another a blood red
as it weightless/as if weightless
dramatic wows/dramatic vows
compared an intact and damaged version/compared intact and damaged versions
at best of times/at the best of times
jets of water of energy/jets of water or energy
u/Ternal [+5] (16 hours later)
Hello guys,
I learned recently that there was a thread on this subreddit each time a chapter came out, so here I am.
Do you guys also discuss theories about where some plotlines are heading? If you do, do you have a dedicated thread for that? I have some ideas but I don't dare to post them directly in case I'm right and it ruins the fun for someone...
u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (22 hours later)
There is also the r/motheroflearning subreddit.
I wouldn't worry about spoiling with a good guess. That's completely legitimate. It's only spoiling if you've read further than someone else, and if that's the case, they shouldn't be reading discussion threads if they're concerned.
My own theory is that Zach will be able to exit normally, unless RR has stolen his body, but Zorian will have to bust out via the primordial prison.
u/Xtraordinaire [+3] Team Glimglam (22 hours later)
It's only spoiling if you've read further than someone else
In other words: time travelers, get out reeeeeeeeeeeeee!
u/Xtraordinaire [+2] Team Glimglam (17 hours later)
You can make a [D]iscussion thread (example), but posting here is absolutely fine, especially if the chapter has some new information relevant to your theories. I mean, what's the point of having these threads if not to discuss the plot and fan theories?
u/Ternal [+9] (18 hours later)
Fair enough. So here I go.
WARNING: THEORY BELOW. MIGHT BE SPOILER IF CORRECT
One of the main issues that Zorian has to solve is about the fact that if he gets out of the loop, the original Zorian is still there with his own soul, so our Zorian has to find a way to get his body back without killing him. My theory is that he will use some form of soul magic to become something similar to a shifter (but having his own soul twice instead of two very different souls). We're told as early as chapter 29 that "shifters are people with two souls", and it seems to me to be particularly appropriate to the matter at hand.
u/FlameSparks [+3] (19 hours later)
It is a popular theory. With what happened at the start of the chapter Zorian got a first hand experience of memory intergration without the anesthetic, this would be useful when he does get into the real world.
u/Ternal [+2] (22 hours later)
Oh so I'm not the first one to have this idea, nice =)
u/Aabcehmu112358 [+1] Utter Fallacy (a day later)
I've had a similar thought, though I've been thinking that Zach and Zorian would join together in shifter-ritual, rather than Zorian with his outer self.
u/Mingablo [+1] (16 hours later)
I mostly avoid these discussions for that exact reason, after a major plot point of a practical guide to evil was guessed. But i think you're safe to post them if you want, maybe just put a warning at the top. I don't think there is any special place for those discussions.
u/panchoadrenalina [+1] (a day later)
what plot point if i might ask?
u/Mingablo [+1] (a day later)
The chapter where the princess of summer was interrogated. Someone guessed the ending to the arcadia arc.
u/None [+5] (10 hours later)
A shame there were no lasting consequences, but perhaps there are that we haven't seen?
Honestly the best part of this novel is going to be when they finally escape the loop and their actions have actual consequences on the world around them.
u/dragondraems42 [+7] (30 minutes later)
They're still going to interact with Quatach-Ichl? That seems...unwise. If they go through even one more attack of the same caliber it would be almost impossible to escape the loop.
u/GoXDS [+24] (33 minutes later)
too bad they have to engage with him at least once more. and now they know what to expect so...
u/ketura [+15] Organizer (an hour later)
Risk/Reward. 19 restarts left, that's a year and a half. QI is the biggest threat IRL, and he represents direct access to one key and indirect access to another. They have to interact with him a few more times just to practice getting the crown itself, and any information they can get on dunking him out of the loop would be invaluable.
u/Xtraordinaire [+5] Team Glimglam (54 minutes later)
It was definitely unwise. Now, with some of his secrets revealed, it's probably not so unwise to deal with QI as before.
Besides, they need the crown.
Get all the relics or bust.
u/mp3max [+2] (an hour later)
Crown and dagger, btw.
u/thrawnca [+14] Carbon-based biped (an hour later)
and dagger
QI's help is less crucial than it was. They have now had the chance to at least briefly examine the vault's wardstone, and they know how to break the tracker afterward. Busting the vault without QI would be very challenging, but has probably become possible.
u/pleasedothenerdful [+3] (20 hours later)
They got in once before, but got harassed the rest of the restart by pursuing authorities. Now thanks to QI, they know how to keep that from happening.
u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (21 hours later)
Not quite. They got far enough to be tagged and tracked, yes, but on that occasion they didn't actually manage to rob the place.
u/Xtraordinaire [+1] Team Glimglam (23 hours later)
The discovery of the soul tether allows them to try (and fail) the heist once in a restart now.
Where before they would be harassed by the eagle riding royal dickwads, now they break the tether and continue through other plans of the restart even if they fail to get the dagger. They now have 19 attempts to get into the vault on their own.
u/mp3max [+4] (an hour later)
That seems...unwise
They don't have any other option though, they need to interact with QI for both the dagger and the crown, which are 100% vital.
u/sicutumbo [+3] (40 minutes later)
They can either do it now, or do it when another setback would kill them for sure. The only complicating thing would be if the scepter granted then some amazing combat power, but that's rather risky.
u/Equisential [+2] (3 days later)
Can anyone recommend me some stories similar to this one? Just caught up and want more :)
Thanks
u/bassicallyboss [+1] (6 days later)
If you like Naruto fanfiction and don't mind sex, Time Braid also features slow power leveling in a time loop. It's not the same caliber as this, but it might satisfy if you need a fix.
u/Hust91 [+3] (19 minutes later)
Yiiisss, New chapter of best ratfic!
u/mp3max [+2] (45 minutes later)
I don't like the title of this chapter...Nevermind, the chapter title was a bit overdramatic. Fitting, but overdramatic nonetheless.
Tbh, I don't think it's such a bad thing for them to have taking their time off. I mean, it sucks that they were forced to lose those restarts but it doesn't hurt them to remember who they are doing those things for as well, and to rest their minds a little.
u/RMcD94 [+1] (13 hours later)
How could they both instantly tell how long it would take to heal
u/thrawnca [+10] Carbon-based biped (22 hours later)
They were only guesstimating, but Zach has experienced recovery from soul damage before, and Zorian has Sudomir's knowledge on the subject.
u/Slinkinator [+1] (a day later)
I hope I'm not repeating anything previously said, but didn't "He really got us good" stick out to anyone?
When I read the previous chapter I didn't think of Quatach-Ichl possessing either one of them, and didn't think it all that plausible even after I saw comments on here about the possibility, but I haven't noticed the author using that turn of phrase frequently before.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)
It sounded in-character to me.
Also I'm pretty sure you can't possess someone by just exploding yourself all over them like that.
u/Kuratius [-4] (51 minutes later)
The chapter felt like its title: Powerless.