scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/8fxixb.md

[RT] Worth the Candle, ch 90-93 (Head/Open/Shades/Bottle)

• Author: u/cthulhuraejepsen Fruit flies like a banana*

• URL: https://archiveofourown.org/works/11478249/chapters/33465045

• Score: 225

• Created: 2018-04-30T06:36:38

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u/mojojo46 [+82] (14 minutes later)

At last, my obsessive checking of /r/rational has paid off! /u/cthulhuraejepsen, you know we love you, right? Don't listen to the idiots with poorly formed criticism. :)

u/sparkc [+33] (6 hours later)

I certainly echo your sentiment but I want to also acknowledge the fact that the author did just put out four lengthy chapters. Some of the criticism has effected output but the output is still high. I think the choice of delivering these four chapters at once, even with the longer than usual break, was the right choice too.

u/Bowbreaker [+3] Solitary Locust (12 hours later)

What's this negative impact criticism you're talking about?

u/cthulhuraejepsen [+13] Fruit flies like a banana (19 hours later)

You can read some of my thoughts here, or last month's Patreon accountability post.

u/Bowbreaker [+12] Solitary Locust (a day later)

Huh. No idea how to help you with that other than maybe giving a little insigt on why some people read your whole story and then seemingly only project a superficial and negative opinion.

Personally, I'm not good at analyzing a story to explain why exactly I like it. So when a story is very good in general (as yours is) then I often just give some generic praise after reading the last chapter, if even that. Other times I just feel good about having read what I read but immediately move on to the next thing to scratch my itch.

But when something small is out of place inan otherwise perfect story/chapter it stays with me and I want to share it, either in the hope that I actually help the author improve on and perfect something that in my opinion is worth being as good as possible, or (and I'm not proud of this) to have an easy way to discuss an aspect of this thing I generally enjoy with others. And especially if the imperfection is jarring (something that never happened to me with Worth the Candle) I may become passionate in a negative way.

But all that is only possible if there is something keeping me interested in the story in question in the first place. A great thing with a (real or perceived) flaw can be much more frustrating that something that isn't worth my time.

tl:dr ~ Your story is great. Please don't stop.

u/icesharkk [+5] (2 days later)

I read through that whole thread. Man I'm sorry it's so emotionally draining to write for an on demand audience. I really like your work with wtc, It's become the highlight of my weekly reading. I think the effort you've put in has created something with great thematic integrity. Wtc has even made it onto my re-reading list alongside Dresden files.

The story just works on a lot of levels and I find my self showing up in these threads every week to make predictions and argue with my co-workers about where the plot is going.

Next on my rational reading list is likely to be metropolitan man since brodski audiobooked it. I generally don't like Superman as a rule, but I trust your ability as a writer and want to hear the story you tell.

u/kleind305 [+2] (6 days later)

Responding mostly for visibility:

Metropolitan Man is one of the best and, more importantly, the single most accessible piece of rational fiction. It's something you can give to someone to show them what the genre can be.

u/dalitt [+29] (10 hours later)

I think this has been the best stretch of WtC produced thus far, which is really saying something. Lots of payoff from the rest of the novel in this stretch of chapters, and the already-interesting mysteries and problems surrounding Arthur, etc. are becoming really urgent, fascinating, and scary.

u/None [+25] (13 hours later)

[deleted]

u/CouteauBleu [+11] We are the Empire. (19 hours later)

Oh yeah, this chapter raised all sorts of "Arthur is the final boss" flags.

u/munkeegutz [+3] (15 hours later)

You might be on to something here for the end of this story...

u/nytelios [+2] (2 days later)

The popularity of your post hopefully speaks to the author of the goodwill from the bulk of us readers and that outspoken dissent is still a minority (and perhaps shouldn't be weighed as heavily!).

However, I'm with /u/RMcD94 in that I'm against name-calling and this type of public shaming for people with dissenting opinions. I don't believe that fosters a healthy and fun discussion forum like /r/rational ideally is (and has always been, in my opinion). I mean, I even had a very heated discussion with a critic where the word 'stupid' may have been thrown around, but at the end of the day I hope he continues thinking about the story and offering controversial criticism because that's far preferable to a comment circlejerk where only "safe" opinions get constructive attention. There may be criticism that gets stuck in the author's mind, for better or worse, but I'd like to think this whole episode has been a learning experience for everyone. And maybe there will be less frivolous criticism now?

tldr; readers, don't get discouraged from posting criticism!

u/dalitt [+4] (2 days later)

I think I agree with you about public shaming -- in particular, I object to the use of the word "idiots" in the original post. But I don't think it's off-base to call out aggressive, mean, or bad-faith criticism (or just unkind behavior in general). Also, I think it's worth noting that as far as I can tell, no users critical of commenters on past threads have actually mentioned them by name here -- instead, they have only been mentioned obliquely, or by their defenders! So any public shaming that's happened has been of a pretty mild sort.

That said, if /u/mojojo46 feels like moderating their tone, it would certainly be consistent with the enforcement of norms of niceness.

My guess is that much of the disagreement on this thread comes from people talking past each other. It feels to me like the argument has been "this post isn't nice" vs. "you're trying to quash any and all criticism." But, at least in my view, its perfectly possible to be both nice and critical.

The norm I would advocate for is: all criticism is OK, but also all posts must be nice. Probably the subjectivity of that last word is where the problem lies -- it seems that my views of niceness are more rigid than some of the other commenters here, and that my sensitivity to tone is much greater.

u/nytelios [+1] (2 days later)

It's oblique but anyone who's followed the threads knows the intended recipient of the jab. And it's fair to expect tit for tat if you're being aggressive. I did mean it as a general caution. It's easy to take "idiots with poorly formed criticism" as addressed to any critic because who's to judge what's "poorly formed" when it's only in your mind? (Bearing in mind that not everyone is introspective enough to play devil's advocate with oneself)

The subjectivity of what's critical yet nice is funny. Besides the headache of discerning tone on the internet and what our definitions of "nice" are, nice criticism seems like an oxymoron. Maybe it's at the root of why criticism bothers us more than praise (as CRJ alluded to). Polite, well-meaning criticism is still an attack of sorts, which may be why it's rare to find many people who can deliver it with genuine niceness.

u/Linear_Cycle [+1] (16 days later)

Worth the Candle is really wonderful!!! I wrote an email of all the webfiction recommendations I could think of recently to send to my friends, and Worth the Candle was the top webfiction on my list. Its worldbuilding is top-notch and it's well-written too.

u/RMcD94 [-2] (14 hours later)

Since when did this subreddit become a place where people are disparaged for criticism?

u/dalitt [+20] (14 hours later)

I don't think criticism is being disparaged in general; in a past thread, there was a particular commenter who (IMHO) wasn't giving critiques in good faith. The author mentioned being pretty discouraged by these comments. I think it's fair to dismiss "poorly formed criticism," while still acknowledging thoughtful and kind critique.

u/RMcD94 [-4] (15 hours later)

Well it's weird because you said plural idiots and "poorly formed criticism" is not a defence that I like because there's not some objective standard for criticism which means that people who write well formed criticism will never have it be called poorly formed criticism. That is to say it is very easy to say all criticism and any criticism is poorly formed if you understand me.

The author being disparaged by the works probably to me is almost worst because now everyone has to couch what they say because we're really saying here that if you enjoy this story at all, or think there's any net positive then to avoid the chance of a comment leading to the author stopping one should leave no feedback that could ever be in anyway remotely viewed as negative or not in good wait, and yes that includes completely genuine and helpful constructive criticism.

There's no (good) solution here, because an author might genuinely feel that way (even about good criticism). Motivation, especially for creative works, is hardly under conscious control so the solution is that nobody leaves any criticism (for is the author likely to admit constructive criticism kills their motivation due to the social pressure) or for the author not to read the comments (again problematic if that is how they are motivated to begin with).

u/CouteauBleu [+22] We are the Empire. (19 hours later)

Sorry for getting personal, but I think you're having a problem with this because you're the kind of person who sees "brutally honest" as a virtue, and tends to focus more on the "brutal" than the "honest".

There's no (good) solution here, because an author might genuinely feel that way (even about good criticism).

Being polite and charitable isn't a slippery slope. In 99% of situations you can be direct and to the point and not an hypocrite, and still be kind and charitable and respect the fact that you may be missing something in your criticism. Even saying stuff like "I know it's a small detail, but I wanted to point it out" can make criticism less unpleasant to read. (I mean, I'm not in the author head, this is just general etiquette)

u/RMcD94 [+2] (a day later)

Being kind and charitable doesn't mean that an author won't have an issue with it

u/CouteauBleu [+12] We are the Empire. (a day later)

We can split hair, but overall, yes it does. People are much less likely on average to take offense criticism if the person criticizing is being nice and respectful.

u/RMcD94 [+0] (a day later)

I'm not talking about taking offence I'm talking about losing motivation.

u/Makin- [+14] homestuck ratfic, you can do it (18 hours later)

I think the idiots plural was just OP being polite and not pointing a finger at the specific culprit.

In any case I think you are overreacting. There is still plenty of constructive criticism to go around.

u/RMcD94 [+1] (a day later)

I don't know what part of of thinking more on a subject could be classed as an overreaction by this subreddit of all places but clearly it has changed massively.

u/None [+1] (a day later)

[deleted]

u/RMcD94 [+2] (a day later)

"people are disparaged for criticism" and "one should leave no feedback that could ever be in anyway remotely viewed as negative" is not thinking more on a subject, it's demagogy.

It wasn't a demagogy, it was a thought experiment. I took the initial thought (criticism impacting production) and followed it through as anyone here is more than capable of doing. It was, what I thought, the beginning of an interesting discussion on how the feedback of a community relates to a creative work but apparently /r/rational has become opposed to such things.

This kind of discussion is the whole reason I enjoy this subreddit, and indeed it wouldn't shock me if the deconstructionist main character we're reading ends up talking about the DM's motivation or something at some point.

I am not saying you are overreacting because of your overall theme, I even agree with you that people shouldn't hold their constructive criticism back. I'm saying you are overreacting because of the OP strawmanning and slippery slope arguments you are making.

You can't agree with me on that because I didn't take that position. I'm also not making any argument so trying to fallacy of fallacy me doesn't do anything since who exactly do you think I'm arguing with?

Edit: To be honest I should have realised the subreddit was different when the top comment is referring to completely to the nebulous "them" and having read the previous comment thread at the time and again after that comment I've still yet to see anything that could be called "mean", written by "idiots" or "poorly formed".

u/nytelios [+2] (2 days later)

I don't think you should take the top post as proof that "/r/rational has become opposed to such things." I think its position as the top post and rating are the result of readers being worried that this long delay was caused by vocal criticism and trying to reassure the author in the same sentiment as the OP, rather than just trying to create a divide between "us" and "them"/"idiots". I'd optimistically take it as a gushy welcome back and encouragement for the author.

About the old threads, I don't think it was directly mean or idiotic, but it was definitely poorly formed and many points of critique did lack a charity in interpretation.

u/dalitt [+9] (18 hours later)

Well it's weird because you said plural idiots and "poorly formed criticism" is not a defence...

I didn't write the word "idiots" anywhere -- I think you meant to respond to the original commenter.

Re: your second paragraph, my diagnosis is that this isn't what's happening. There was one (or maybe two) commenters who (IMHO) were just plain mean; in general, the author seems to take criticism well. I think it's fine to object to mean commentary, and welcome well-intentioned commentary; admittedly, it's subjective, but at least in this case, I think the situation has been pretty clear-cut.

u/RMcD94 [+1] (a day later)

I read the previous thread and didn't see anyone being mean, please quote who you think is mean.

Regardless it's an interesting thought experiment even if it is not directly applicable

I did assume it would be the same commenter

u/dalitt [+4] (a day later)

If you read through the comment thread, you’ll see who I was referring to, since I directly told them I thought they were being mean. I see no reason to reopen old wounds here.

u/RMcD94 [+1] (a day later)

Well I guess it's not surprising I didn't see it since it's buried in subthreads and not even posted as a main response to the story but a response to someone else's response. I naively assumed that something that apparently is such a big deal as to be damaging the potential of this story's continuation would be at the top.

I still think Dragons were added as an after thought, because the party needed to be on a train, cause story would not work on an airplane. Every chapter prior to train showed 0 evidence that dragons were somehow a problem with flight transportation\use, in fact helicopters\airplanes were used pretty freely. If dragons were in fact a consideration from the start, a lot of people and situations our heroes encountered should be the result of dumbest decisions that other people made.

This is the "idiots" (again singular case!) which the OP is referring to? Even though the dragon thing doesn't bother me at all, I don't look at that person's comments and think "wow what poorly formed criticism".

Who not only then goes on to immediately clarify that:

I never tried to insult you personally or say that you are incompetent or dumb, even if i hated the story i would not do that. You do great work writing and creating your world.

If anything this completely reinforces my thought experiment as being not far fetched at all.

And by poorly formed criticism this is probably one of the only pieces of criticism this story gets, skimming over this chapter's comment thread I don't see a single piece of criticism, excluding my own minor nitpick (which is downvoted at the bottom of the thread, because that's how people use votes in this subreddit). So it seems I was in fact ignorant in my preceding comments, it's already the case that people don't review things critically on this subreddit. A collective decision on my thought problem was reached before I even posited it.

This is true of almost every single story posted here, criticism is never found in snippets, only en masse. Perhaps it's a reddit thing, perhaps it's a human thing, but if you look at MoL you won't see any criticism and then suddenly one chapter gets a lot of criticism.

Also you completely misrepresented that person by saying they were giving critiques in bad faith when clearly they do actually have a problem with dragons they are not making up an issue just to give criticism.

Edit: Seriously, https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/8bhjwe/rtwip_worth_the_candle_ch_8889_solitudeface/dxitghb/ How can you think he wasn't making comments in good faith?

u/dalitt [+5] (a day later)

Are you an alt for the account in question? You have very similar writing styles... My apologies if not.

In any case, I’m not going to rehash the arguments here, and I’m unlikely to respond to anything else you write here. I feel like talking to you hasn’t been very pleasant so far. Have a nice day.

u/RMcD94 [+0] (a day later)

Are you an alt for the account in question?

I am literally baffled that you would say this but it's pretty clear you haven't taken any sort of objective approach on this matter from your "bad faith" comments earlier.

You have very similar writing styles... My apologies if not.

I cannot possibly think you, a reader of /r/rational, genuinely believe that people with similar writing styles (which by the way isn't the case, since that person doesn't even bother with correct capitalisation) are alts of each other. On top of me not even knowing what comment you were referring to until halfway down the thread.

I'll go with the old do not assign that to malice which can be assigned to incompetence and assume you've somehow forgotten that I had no idea what you were referring to at the start of this conversation.

In any case, I’m not going to rehash the arguments here,

It's hard for me not to respond with more confusion here because at no point have you ever made any arguments. There's no argument by you in another thread (you left a tiny comment calling him mean), and you've made a total of one point in your replies to me here and I doubt you consider that an argument. What exactly is being rehashed?

I’m unlikely to respond to anything else you write here.

I am saddened that users of this subreddit would respond to a discussion with this kind of comment.

I feel like talking to you hasn’t been very pleasant so far.

I always make sure to close my ears when someone starts to suggest I might be in the wrong, because it's not pleasant to be wrong.

Have a nice day.

You too.

u/None [+6] (a day later)

[deleted]

u/RMcD94 [+1] (a day later)

I actually thought you were an alt for the aforementioned redditor at first as well since you are taking a hard stance on something you don't know anything about and doubling down with arguing your opinion in a similar manner.

Well I guess you're an alt of the guy I was talking to /s

I didn't take any hard stance prior to quoting the original comment, did you read any of my previous comments? I mused.

I can see how it can be annoying for many that you persist in insulting others in the thread by your passive aggressive comments suggesting this subreddit is falling below standards when that isn't the case.

How is that passive aggressive? It seems quite direct to me.

I think it is reasonable for people to not want an annoying heckler around who was adding nothing of value every week.

The old, I don't agree with someone so they provide nothing of value one. I too could only dream of the days where everyone in this subreddit 100% agreed with everything I posted.

The reason I say you don't know anything about what you are talking about is because you seem to be unaware of the situation because you only looked at the previous thread (after you already started your uniformed rant apparently)

Well I read (and by that I mean skimmed) the previous thread when I originally read the chapters, but I did not read the subcomments within that thread. Also "rant"? What are you talking about? How can someone read that tone into my comment?

and didn't look at all of the previous threads from the past couple of months where the person in question admitted to not liking the story but persisted in overtaking every thread with hundreds of comments with continuous nonconstructive negativity.

No I did not do that at all. I binged this story and haven't read any of the other comment threads and certainly didn't stalk the users profile history.

The continuous negative nitpicks, which almost everyone thought were not actually valid points, grated on almost everyone including the author and I think everyone was hoping that this thread would be better after the author addressed the issue in the last thread.

I don't know if you expect me to go through what is apparently hundreds of comments of a user (which I just checked that user has indeed made in their entire reddit history a whole 102 comments on this subreddit, I presume they have done nothing but comment on worth the candle) to see if we all suddenly agree that they are "negative nitpicks" or whatever you classify criticism you disagree with as but the only point I read regarding the dragons seemed, if minor, a completely valid criticism which Alexander responded to with completely valid responses.

Unfortunately, you are actively taking efforts to take his spot as the heckler in the back that ruins everyone's mood so I hope you can understand why no one is taking your insults to the subreddit seriously.

I didn't intend to come across that I was confused or perplexed that other people have a problem with people criticising works they like. Because I am of the strong opinion that most people absolutely hate any form of criticism however well meaning against a work they enjoy. I am simply making the observation that when I was more active in this subreddit other people having different opinions than you on a story didn't "ruin everyone's mood". Certainly, I would never have expected a "backlash" against me going off topic and conceptualising about the optimal feedback where maximal fiction production is achieved a few years ago.

u/None [+4] (a day later)

[deleted]

u/RMcD94 [+1] (a day later)

I recognize the overall point you are making is that we shouldn't criticize others for offering criticisms.

I'm not even saying that. I think it's a perfectly valid position to take that we shouldn't offer criticism if it will impact an author's motivation.

But what I disagree with is its relevancy to this situation since I felt that particular user was not performing to the subreddit's standards. You think otherwise so agree to disagree. Not much else we can say about that.

The only comment I saw seemed fine. I reacted only to the top comment that seemed to me to portray /r/rational as some subreddit plagued by too much criticism, poorly formed and written by multiple idiots.

Now as to the overall point I was trying to make that you mostly ignored, it is that you are being insulting to others in this thread by insinuating that this subreddit is going downhill and I object to that.

It's certainly an insult to say someone isn't up to what I think is the calibre of the subreddit so yes, I don't disagree that I was being insulting to that particular individual. Again, I'm not insinuating it, I am vocally stating it. I'm not trying to "ignore the point" and "pick at semantics" I am trying to clarify and avoid being tarnished by your insults.

If you had not been insulting in your tone and attitude then I am sure I would never have been compelled to write anything at all and would have just considered your points.

I prefer discussion over non-discussion and since my original comment that sparked this furious debate (my meandering thoughts on the moral obligations of commentary) which was apparently insulting (unintentionally so) then apparently there is a perverse incentive for me.

I can't say I would spark much of a discussion with something less insulting like this comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/8fxixb/rt_worth_the_candle_ch_9093_headopenshadesbottle/dy7dgg1/

Just as an example.

u/nytelios [+3] (2 days later)

Can we not argue all the time? At this point, it's just arguing for the sake of argument...and that never goes anywhere. I think Gilgalad7 already summed up the morals of the day:

• we shouldn't criticize others for offering criticisms
• it's only fair that critics should expect criticism of their criticism, but not in an insulting or derogatory way
• in the same vein, both sides shouldn't marginalize or generalize. You worry that /r/rational is lumping any critic into the "idiots" group, but you're also generalizing all of us as people who think that way.

Also, I responded above with my thoughts on why the top comment is so popular.

u/None [+44] (3 hours later)

[deleted]

u/1337_w0n [+13] (7 hours later)

Oh no, I wanted them more spaced out.

u/FeluriansCloak [+5] (15 hours later)

I know. I told myself I would ration them out, when I realized how much I had to read this morning (WtC,MoL,PGtE), but instead I just took a long, literary lunch 😂

u/JulianWyvern [+4] Wayward Wanderer (21 hours later)

Just remember that Origin of Species is tomorrow!

u/akaltyn [+5] (a day later)

I always read chapters immediately when they come out because I have zero self control.

u/akaltyn [+35] (3 hours later)

Loving these chapters.

Really glad that they are taking the isolation seriously now after Amaryllis jumping in on her own at first. Her having a session with each of the others gives a good opportunity for character development. I still tihnk they're rushing things too much, given they don't have much in the way of external time pressure iirc, there's now reason they couldn't take a day between sessions

Interesting to see our impressons of Adult!Arthur fleshed out, with him interacting with his party and the house. spoilers

spoilers

u/eaglejarl [+25] (5 hours later)

I still tihnk they're rushing things too much, given they don't have much in the way of external time pressure iirc, there's now reason they couldn't take a day between sessions

This was actually addressed in the chapter: They know that the locus is dying, they don't know how much time they have to save it, and they know it's not a lot of time.

“You’re talking about adding another day on, minimum,” said Amaryllis. “I didn’t come out here to retread that point, we don’t know whether we have a day to spare. If there’s a five percent chance that adding an extra day on causes the locus to die, that’s not a risk I’m willing to take.” She was speaking fast, more emphatic than she usually was.

u/LLJKCicero [+12] (7 hours later)

[spoilers](#s 'Joon feels unrealistically mature to me for a guy his age, I'm 32 and I feel like he has an edge on me as far as communication goes. But I'm okay with it; a more realistic teenager might be painful to read about.")

u/CouteauBleu [+7] We are the Empire. (10 hours later)

Agreed. I feel like realistically, Joon would be closer to, say, Sander Seaborn in terms of maturity. But having be steady and emotionally mature definitely makes the story more enjoyable and enlightening for me!

u/akaltyn [+7] (8 hours later)

He was apparently operating with maxed out Soc stats at that point, so that might have helped a bit

u/icesharkk [+17] (9 hours later)

Not maxed, just the two floating points he can moved without fucking up his soft and hard caps

u/RMcD94 [+1] (15 hours later)

Unreasonably empathetic and capable of conceptualising hard to understand concepts in a short space of time imo.

u/I_Probably_Think [+2] (a day later)

Some better word choice may do you well in stimulating interesting discussions! That said, while it's vaguely interesting to know that there exist people with a different opinion, this comment doesn't seem to really facilitate much discussion anyways (unlike some of your other [unreasonably, I feel] downvoted ones)...

u/RMcD94 [+1] (2 days later)

This was more an expansion on someone else's point rather than a primary point which is why it has less effort in it

u/I_Probably_Think [+2] (2 days later)

Makes sense, but I guess "the opposite of what you said" isn't a terribly interesting comment I guess, eh? (I do it all the time too oops)

u/nytelios [+1] (2 days later)

I also have a thing for dialogue that progresses a relationship, but still leaves the consequences open. And the interactions, moments where Joon made a social slip-up that revealed his thought processes to the others or snuck a clever message to Mary (via Aesopian language? not quite sure what the term is for this kind of double entendre) or the group's reading of Mary's uncharacteristic mistake coming out without armor, were my favorite parts.

Though I suspect things will come to a head in the time chamber sooner rather than later, with how things were between them on their first real day.

u/water125 [+30] (an hour later)

Fuck yes.

I started reading this story like 4 days ago, blazed through it all, and today I read the final few chapters available. This story is incredible and I was sooooo sad I'd have to wait for more now. I was just about to go try Mother of Learning out, checked this sub again, and boom. Perfect timing, thank you so much for your hard work, I really appreciate it!

u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (a day later)

Wait, so you haven't started MoL?

I highly recommend the story, but just be aware, it has a few months left to run. Depending on your tastes, you might prefer to wait six months or so and read it in one go.

Or you can jump on the "augh now I have to wait another three weeks" train with everyone else :).

u/water125 [+3] (a day later)

Yeah, I've heard lots of good things. It's probably the most popular story on this sub, and I do like loop stuff, so I'm for sure gonna try it. I doubt I'll wait six months, and in fact will probably start today. Gotta read something while I wait for more WtC

u/ceegheim [+32] (11 hours later)

Very nicely resolved all the critiques I had on Amaryllis going in alone being a stupid plan.

Also, I'm rooting on Amaryllis taking over the world. She feels like the natural protagonist, for quite some time: Where Joon, Fenn and Grak are mostly going with the flow, she actually has an endgame she is working for. And handing the world-breaking super-powers not to her directly but rather to a companion, who is also the narrator, is pure genius.

edit: With this, I mean that Amaryllis is the character with most agency in all of the story, so far. Adding in that she knows that she and her personal history were retro-causally created for the sole purpose of appealing to Joon makes it even better, since she copes pretty well with this potential existential crisis.

u/ceegheim [+15] (13 hours later)

Post-script upon reconsideration: Wow, mentally reframing the entire story with Amaryllis as the protagonist makes me like it even more. Pretty late to make this click, and not sure whether /u/cthuluraejepsen actually intended this, but that's my headcanon now. I should re-read it with that framing.

u/xamueljones [+8] My arch-enemy is entropy (a day later)

The story would be even better if Ropey was the protagonist. ;)

u/awesomeideas [+7] Dai stiho, cousin. (2 days later)

"I had practiced my uncoiling for this. With just the right amount of force, I thought I could snare Juniper before he fell out of my reach..."

u/Charlie___ [+2] (3 days later)

Alternatively, taking over the world is also very attractive. How much is the DM? How much is the author writing an interesting harem? I feel slightly bad for this line of thinking.

u/JiggyRobot [+25] (5 hours later)

Wow. I was hoping for a new chapter soon, but wasn't expecting to get 4 at once.

A lot of information about Arthur in this update. We have had hints that Arthur may not be as perfect as Joon sees him for a while now, but this really doesn't paint him in the best light.

It sounds like Arthur had been extremely worn down by the constant conflict during his time on Aerb. Given what had happened to him and his family during that time, I think that seems fair enough. What most stuck out to me here was that Arthur apparently didn't know his children that well. It honestly gives me the impression that he still didn't consider his time on Aerb to be his "real" life; especially when combined with the Groundhog Day discussion and his willingness to just arbitrarily spend a few months exploring the pit.

Also, unrelated note but Amaryllis development of technology during that time is to be honest kind of terrifying. They are going to absolutely destroy the economy if they introduce all of this stuff at the same time.

Edit: Also, important question but what happened to all the Cats that Amaryllis creates every-time she reads a book? Is there a tidal wave of cats every time the time chamber opens?

u/WarningInsanityBelow [+23] (6 hours later)

It wasn't mentioned, but I assume the cats disappear when the book that summoned them is closed.

u/nhdaly [+4] (20 hours later)

... do they die? :'(

u/Nimelennar [+9] (22 hours later)

It's a Tome of Cat Summoning, not a Tome of Cat Conjuring. Assuming that descriptor is accurate, the cats aren't created, they're brought from another plane of existence, and if they're killed or the Summoning spell is otherwise disrupted, they get sent back home to their own plane, completely unhurt.

So, no, they probably don't die.

u/xamueljones [+9] My arch-enemy is entropy (a day later)

the cats aren't created, they're brought from another plane of existence

And now my head canon is that whenever Amaryllis is opening a book in the time chamber, cats all over Aerb are teleporting to and from their homes at really quick rates. It's going down history as one of life's biggest mysteries of why for five days in year XXXX, cats all over briefly disappeared for a few seconds.

u/Nimelennar [+11] (a day later)

It's going down history as one of life's biggest mysteries of why for five days in year XXXX, cats all over briefly disappeared for a few seconds.

... You've never owned a cat, have you?

I've had cats teleport into locked rooms, and my only reaction was to sniff the air to make sure they didn't leave any presents while in there.

A few moments' disappearance would be delightfully mundane.

u/ZeCatox [+4] (2 days later)

I've had cats teleport into locked rooms

Not bad... but that doesn't beat finding your cat curled between socks in the back of a closed drawer <°__°;

u/xamueljones [+2] My arch-enemy is entropy (a day later)

I have, but they were fairly lazy cats and rarely moved from their spots on the couch for anything other than food or bathroom. As a child I liked to follow them and as I grew up, I often followed them into locked rooms with me getting stuck behind as the door shut behind them without an adult noticing. I've figured out how they do their teleporting trick a long time ago. ;)

u/nhdaly [+1] (a day later)

PHEW

u/ben_sphynx [+3] (4 days later)

see /r/thecatdimension

u/WarningInsanityBelow [+2] (4 days later)

Of course! The book only exerts a mind control effect on already present ambient cats to come out of the cat dimension when opened and return when it is closed. This is a much simpler explanation than actually creating them since no violation of conservation of cats is involved.

u/sneakpeekbot [+1] (4 days later)

Here's a sneak peek of /r/thecatdimension using the top posts of all time!

#1: Super Mario Kitty | 91 comments
#2: Maru returns from the cat dimension | 120 comments
#3: Dimension tag | 70 comments

---

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u/1337_w0n [+2] (9 hours later)

I also assumed this.

u/xamueljones [+22] My arch-enemy is entropy (4 hours later)

I bet that despite Amaryllis' statement that she would kill Fenn if they spent a month together alone in a small room, she and Fenn will likely attempt doing so for at least one of the remaining months if only because Fenn doesn't want Amaryllis to spend more time with Juniper.

I also have to comment on how Juniper comes off as a teenager in the last chapter during the conversation with Amaryllis rather than the young adult he's been earlier in the story. There's nothing too obvious, but it feels like he's having trouble dealing with the emotionally charged issues in a way that feels very teenager-like rather than adult-like and I have no idea why I have this impression. Something, something about not being very good at keeping things at an emotional distance?

As a general impression, Juniper has seemed fairly mature and competent when in dangerous situations and dealing with the game-quests. However, he has often fallen short and frequently stumbles when dealing with the social aspects of interactions which is only partially mitigated by the rest of the group being older, more worldly, and are aware that he's trying. I'd be curious to hear if anyone has a different understanding of his character.

Edit: Expanded on the first paragraph and grammar corrections.

u/Makin- [+22] homestuck ratfic, you can do it (5 hours later)

I just think Arthur is his weak point, so it makes sense if he can't really deal with issues related to him. He never could in the past.

u/xamueljones [+2] My arch-enemy is entropy (7 hours later)

Some of it is because it's about Arthur, but it feels like he's similarly emotionally compromised when it comes to romantic relationships as well. Although, one could say it's the same thing again, just replace Arthur with Tiff.

u/GlueBoy [+17] anti-skub (12 hours later)

I feel like something is foreshadowed in this chapter.

Prediction: Joon spends the whole month in the room and manages to resist temptation. But then Fenn goes in next, and she and Amy do go at it. Awkward.

u/Clipsterman [+12] (16 hours later)

Funny, cause I was thinking that when she would go in, he would joke that she shouldn't have sex with Amy. If they actually do have sex, then that would be fucking hilarious.

u/Sailor_Vulcan [+6] Champion of Justice and Reason (13 hours later)

He IS a teenager. At the start of the story he's a 17-year-old, alternate universe version of the author. And he's been in Aerb for less than 9 months, if what Amaralyis said about being in the time chamber longer than she'd known Juniper by the time Solace is born is any indication.

u/xamueljones [+2] My arch-enemy is entropy (13 hours later)

I agree, I'm just saying that it's particularly noticeable in these four chapters compared to earlier in the story.

u/akaltyn [+9] (a day later)

Previously we've been seeing him in his element, dealing with D&D style quests and optimisation problems. That's something he's really good at, vs the skillset of dealing with emotional issues he hasn't really developed.

u/WalterTFD [+2] (8 hours later)

I don't think Fenn should be in the chamber, no matter who they put her in with. A static room for a month might break her.

u/None [+14] (9 hours later)

In which case Amaryllis says "Get the fuck out of my room", Fenn says "Yes, A-mom-ryllis", and all is well

u/cfcommando [+20] (3 hours later)

I read this update with rapt attention, and time flew by. I was sad when there was no more, but I'm so excited to read this arc through. I also really love how your story doesn't cast itself into a particular mold and stick there, it really feels alive.

Also, I loved how tangible the interpersonal tension (as well as his inner conflict) felt, and found myself both rooting for Fenn and Juniper and Amaryllis all at the same time.

Thanks for the chapters. :)

u/sparkc [+29] (5 hours later)

Fenn is my favourite character but yet I’m on team Joonaryliss. And, well, from a narrative standpoint it feels like if they don’t hook up in the time chamber (which it doesn’t seem like they will) then they won’t ever. Sad times. I hope the ill informed criticism that would follow were that to happen had no influence on that outcome.

And somehow WtC has turned me from someone who looked down on other shippers in other fandoms in bemusement to somebody writing comments about characters they want shipped.

u/Marthinwurer [+24] (6 hours later)

New ship: Amaryllis x Kuum Doona. OTP? I think so.

u/sicutumbo [+12] (20 hours later)

My ships:

Joon x Fenn

Amaryllis x Autonomy x Power

Anyblade x Falatehr's neck

Anyblade x Larkspur's neck

Fenn x Artillery Bow

Grak x Deadpan Humor

Valencia x Normal Human Contact

Amaryllis x Character Development

u/CouteauBleu [+1] We are the Empire. (18 hours later)

... Considering who Amaryllis is and Zona's previous relationship with Uther, it would be a very adversarial relationship. I'm all for it!

u/RMcD94 [+12] (15 hours later)

Polyamory seems like the obvious conclusion to me.

If she's been there for two months and hasn't fallen out of love even with explicit rejection I don't think it's going away soon. Most people can't cling to a love with complete contact cut

u/water125 [+4] (17 hours later)

Totally agree on the polyamory thing. Amaryllis even said she was into girls, didn't she? With Joon being the exception? I mean, that's 2/3, assuming that Joon wants her (which is at this point dubious) and Finn... well, I dunno about Finn. It's what I hope happens, though.

u/sicutumbo [+19] (18 hours later)

She gave a non committal agreement that she was into girls, but said "You knew before I did?" when Joon said that she was asexual. I would read the engagement as her being a stressed and confused teenager regarding her sexuality, leaning somewhat heavily towards being not being interested in sex in general. I think she wants companionship more than anything, and she's latching onto the first person who likes her as a person rather than due to her heritage. It doesn't get brought up much, but she's an orphan, and definitively did not have a happy childhood after her parents died.

u/Cerevox [+1] (a day later)

She is also working against being Joon's perfect girl. That probably implies her psychology and mental processes are such that she will like him if she spends time with him. Being the perfect girl isn't just about the physical. Also the loyalty stat thing and who knows if that has any pull.

u/dalitt [+5] (12 hours later)

And, well, from a narrative standpoint it feels like if they don’t hook up in the time chamber (which it doesn’t seem like they will) then they won’t ever.

I think they may very well hook up in the next chapter. It seems to me that if either one had made their desire explicit in this chapter they would have, and they still have a month together. Obviously I hope not from a character standpoint...

u/Lapisdust [+14] (19 hours later)

So did anybody notice the mild parallels between the protagonist in Uthar's Ground Hogs day rip off and the man himself. I'm doing a lot of reading between the lines here but I can't help but wonder if he's acting the way he is because he thinks if he makes himself irredeemable the DM might leave him alone. His relationship with his wife and children is distant and given how things seem to go around him I can't help but think that's for their protection.

Also, anybody notice Uthar is diving into a bottomless pit and presumably staring into the abyss for weeks on end ... I wonder if he's seen it staring back. The symbolism is strong with this one.

u/dalitt [+13] (19 hours later)

My read was that he feels like he's been fighting for years to make the world a better place, but that the dreaded narrative keeps finding ways to torture him, or to destroy what he's built. I don't know that he's trying to make himself irredeemable -- just that he feels that since his actions have no consequences (in the long term), they have no moral weight. So he might as well act without regard to moral considerations.

u/cthulhuraejepsen [+13] Fruit flies like a banana (a minute later)

Typos here, please.

(I probably won't get to them until Monday night, which I've set aside specifically for doing the unfun parts of writing, like typo correction.)

u/x3as [+16] (57 minutes later)

“She’s not like I thought she’d be,” said Tiff. “Physically, I mean. I thought she’d be more … Amaryllis Penndraig. Prettier.”

Tiff should be Fenn I think.

u/cthulhuraejepsen [+2] Fruit flies like a banana (19 hours later)

Fixed, thanks.

u/rrssh [+6] (2 hours later)

within a movable teen foot cube

Ten?

It had progressed enough that it wasn’t so reliable on the ability to focus, and could allow its thoughts to wander away from whatever task it had set for itself.

Reliant.

in comparison with everything from Earth, his canon is miniscule

minuscule

u/Takashoru [+2] (17 hours later)

I think 'wired' is right.

"in a nervous, tense, or edgy state"

u/rrssh [+1] (18 hours later)

Thank you.

u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (19 hours later)

Fixed those, thanks.

minuscule

Huh, TIL. I was wondering why my spellcheck didn't catch that one, but it's apparently more common for it to be spelled 'miniscule' than 'minuscule', even if that's contrary to what's "correct". (Interestingly, the Google Docs spellcheck doesn't catch it, but the Chrome browser spellcheck does.)

u/ArisKatsaris [+1] Sidebar Contender (a day later)

Because you know, "mini"

u/SvalbardCaretaker [+6] Mouse Army (4 hours later)

all 93:

I felt upset that I [she]thought she [I] would, and ashamed

You switched subjects the wrong way around, in case notation isnt clear.

when we first met you’ve havesaid that I was just partially dream-skewered

a non-anima and a sentient [square] mile of forest

My model of Joon makes me feel like he'd be pedantic about this.

u/cthulhuraejepsen [+3] Fruit flies like a banana (19 hours later)

Fixed those, thanks.

sentient square mile

I actually tried it both ways, and when said aloud, "sentient square mile" sounded too alliterative - like it's almost, but not quite, a tongue twister. Or maybe off in some other way, like it was violating some intuitive aspect of adjective ordering. I've changed it to "square mile of sentient forest", which reads better, since you're technically correct (the best kind of correct).

u/SvalbardCaretaker [+3] Mouse Army (a day later)

By the way, there is the possibility of outsourcing the more unpleasant writing aspects. Fixing typos, having others filter out negative comments has been done before by Eliezer, IIRC. You have more than enough clout to get volunteers, if you wanted.

u/cthulhuraejepsen [+2] Fruit flies like a banana (6 days later)

I have my wife do some of it, sometimes, especially if I have a backlog of typo correction built up or there's basic editing. I maybe should have had her do it for this current batch of chapters, which was ~26,000 words, meaning that editing basically takes an entire night of writing away from me.

u/SvalbardCaretaker [+1] Mouse Army (6 days later)

My suggestion was made in the general selfish interest of increasing your writing output. Do whatever is comfortable for you - just remember you could have other support as well!

u/Kerbal_NASA [+2] (5 hours later)

when we first met you’ve havesaid that I was just partially dream-skewered

Actually should be "you said"

u/Veedrac [+5] (3 hours later)

TITLE: Bottle Episode

Should be removed

“How does it goes with you?”

"How does it go with you?"

the athenaeums drain away brainpower other pursuits

"the athenaeums drain away brainpower from other pursuits"

if you were in each others shoes

"if you were in each other's shoes"

u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (19 hours later)

Fixed those, thanks.

u/SvalbardCaretaker [+3] Mouse Army (3 hours later)

all 91:

It was tall and proud, narrowing slightly as the [missing] rose,

temporarily reinstating the monarchy with supreme power vested in [a] prisoner

I said. “How you separate[s] fact from fiction.”

u/cthulhuraejepsen [+2] Fruit flies like a banana (19 hours later)

Fixed those, thanks!

u/CouteauBleu [+3] We are the Empire. (3 hours later)

it desired to Kill the king of Palmain

I'm guessing the capitalization is wrong: should be "it desired to kill the King of Palmain".

u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (19 hours later)

Fixed, thank you.

u/SvalbardCaretaker [+3] Mouse Army (4 hours later)

All 92:

“That’s all you need to know[?]”

seems as if a [.] would be more appropriate.

It had progressed enough that it wasn’t so [[reliable reliant]] on the ability to focus

beyond the house, and could only give[[n]] the impression of privacy,

u/cthulhuraejepsen [+2] Fruit flies like a banana (19 hours later)

Fixed those, thank you.

u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (a day later)

the unfun parts of writing, like typo correction

Hmm...I actually enjoy searching for typos. If it's a work that I consider, shall we say, worth the candle. (Also, the fact that you specifically start a typo thread and respond to it is encouraging. Sorry to hear you don't enjoy it!)

Chapter 90:

look-a-like/look-alike

the glove and most of our equipment was/the glove and most of our equipment were

the phrase gift economy/the phrase "gift economy"

somewhat worse for the wear/somewhat the worse for wear

start making come/start making some

Chapter 91:

his only aim/; his only aim

; it desired to kill/: it desired to kill

u/cthulhuraejepsen [+2] Fruit flies like a banana (6 days later)

Fixed those, thanks.

I really do appreciate the typo corrections, it's just one of those things that I would automate away if I could, because it's basically data entry. (Well, maybe 90% data entry for the stuff that's obviously wrong when it's pointed out to me, and 10% mildly fun stuff like learning new language rules or searching out etymology/usage.)

For example, the form of the idiom "worse for the wear". I can find cites for it both ways (though mine is definitely less common), so I'll probably keep it, since I don't want to just scrub out absolutely all of my idiolect. (Funny enough, you can see one winning out over the other in Google's n-gram viewer back in the 1820s.)

u/MarkArrows [+1] (6 days later)

I've always wondered about making a web site for authors specifically looking for typo feedback.

Say something that works like google docs. The author would paste their chapter and it would be open to the public to look through. They would find typos and be able to fix them as they go. On the main document that the author sees, the typo's people found would be highlighted in red and their suggestions would be highlighted in green. UI could be tweaked in any way to make this optimal, but basically a few key points: A way for the author to see the before-after of (multiple?) solutions people presented and the paragraph for context. Then clicking the suggested fix that the author likes best (Or pass if they all suck.) and the program skips over to the next typo found without scrolling or treasure hunting. Maybe even allow users to add details on why they picked that suggestion if it's some grammar involved.

Never sure if it would be worth the cand- effort to make though. Immediate problem would be trolls abusing this but there's plenty of solutions to that. Could be fixed by either implementing a vote system or giving permission keys to people the author trusts. It seems like a good idea for fanfic writers, although I'm 80% sure there's a reason I can't think of on why this idea wouldn't be practical.

u/CouteauBleu [+1] We are the Empire. (11 days later)

If you want to automate the "submit typo, submission gets accepted" part you could post your chapters as google docs or on github, and have people directly suggest their modifications there, and then accepting them is just a button click.

Although both have drawbacks that might make them more cumbersome than they're worth.

u/Noumero [+2] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (4 hours later)

Chapter 90:

desire to inflict my awesome power against people

* "against" -> "upon"/"on"

Chapter 91:

demanding his  attention

Double space after "his".

Chapter 92:

went to sleep without another a single word

* "another" -> "uttering"

Well add that to the mystery pile

* "Well" -> "We'll"

Chapter 93:

I’ve been trying to see it different ways

* "different ways" -> "from different angles"?

a change in subject all its own

* "all its own" -> "all on its own"

u/cthulhuraejepsen [+2] Fruit flies like a banana (19 hours later)

Fixed those, thanks.

all its own

Can you explain why this is wrong? That's always been the phrase as I've known it, and seems to be an equivalent construction. Is it wrong in this specific case for some reason?

u/Noumero [+2] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (a day later)

Can you explain why this is wrong?

... No. I apologize, it appears I was incorrect there, it's a valid construction.

u/Kerbal_NASA [+2] (5 hours later)

ch. 90

I guess the mood swings have made themselves know

know -> known

u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (20 hours later)

Fixed, thanks.

u/SvalbardCaretaker [+3] Mouse Army (3 hours later)

all 90:

He didn’t seem terribly skilled [at] this sort of dialogue

“She’s not like I thought she’d be,” said [TiffFenn]. “Physically, I mean. I thought she’d be more … Amaryllis Penndraig. Prettier.”

truly independent ones even moresomore so.

the full nine months, let alone however long it takes [to] get Solace up and running?

u/cthulhuraejepsen [+2] Fruit flies like a banana (19 hours later)

Fixed those, thanks.

moreso

Fixed. (I found this Grammarist article on the two-word phrase interesting.)

u/adgnatum [+1] (23 hours later)

From 93:

I found myself projecting the person I’d grown up onto the

the person I'd grown up with

u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (6 days later)

Fixed, thank you.

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)

Chapter 92

cats created by power/cats created by the power

nothing he does matter/nothing he does matters

villany/villainy

Chapter 93

a form self-care/a form of self-care

u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (6 days later)

Fixed those, thanks.

u/nytelios [+1] (2 days later)

90

You know how they said (say) that some children

92

like trying to control the cats created by (the) power of the Tome

“Hedonism, villa(i)ny

I overhea(r)d him talking to Vervain

93

I suppose there have (has) been a little bit of rose-colored glasses on my end.

u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (6 days later)

Fixed those, thanks.

I think I disagree with that last one? "have been" refers to the glasses, which are plural. Compare:

There have been birds on the lake.

Or

There has been birds on the lake.

Shouldn't "have" be in agreement with "glasses", which is plural?

u/nytelios [+1] (6 days later)

The noun reference in that sentence is to "a little bit", like how a pair of glasses can be singular (but apparently equally treated as plural). I'm not sure whether "little bit" can be plural, but the "a" triggered my weird grammar senses.

u/CouteauBleu [+1] We are the Empire. (4 days later)

I hadn’t noticed that it was all that different from

"I had noticed that it wasn't all that different from"

or "I hadn’t found it to be all that different from"

u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (6 days later)

Fixed, thanks.

u/erwgv3g34 [+1] (a month later)

Ch. 92, Uther talks to Raven about Groundhog Day. But later in the same chapter Dolmada says that she "overheard him talking to Vervain about how his life was like a story". Not sure if this is an error or if it is meant to convey that Uther has talked about the story with more than one companion, so I am reporting it just in case.

u/munkeegutz [+14] (a day later)

Oh wow, what a couple of chapters! A few thoughts:

• Wow, Arthur is messed up. He's clearly in a bad place, and has done wrong by both his wife and Zona. The DM said that Arthur would be changed. I think we're starting to see the scope of that. As u/NoYouTryAnother said, it's quickly looking like Arthur is going to be the final boss. Since he's been gone for the last 500 years, it seems like their first priority should be not looking for arthur in fear of waking him up. This principle applies to all of the nasty exclusion zones -- they're not getting worse and they're not going anywhere, so it's a good time to power up before taking them on!
• Speaking of which, we just learned a bit about how entads bind to owners -- it looks like you have to be in their presence...or something... in the first time period after it is created, and it will be yours forevermore. So it's not, say, that the maker owns it or something. That makes sense, I guess
• Related, I wonder what will happen when Arthur comes back? All of those entads which are held by Amaryliss might become his! They would be well-advised to prepare for this eventuality, and do some research into what might happen.
• Don't see a way for them to get out of this keeping the anyblade. Hopefully they can convinze zona to come along -- she would be a huge asset if she got a bit more socialized.
• On a related note, it's super important to be defensive of Ropey. Although feeding him to zona is tempting, it's definitely in their best interest to convince zona that entads are people and have rights. Feeding another sentient entad to her is a good way to lose trust.
• That said, there's a great partnership between Zona and the crew. They already have plenty of entads for zona from the Prentiss saga. I think they all have Zona's name on them. You could trade her hanging out with them for a slow but steady flow of entads! That would likely be more than worth the loss of the Anyblade, I suspect.
• I bet you a flying fortress would make travel through the Glassy Fields exclusion zone much easier. I bet dragons are not inclined to patrol that area, and I wouldn't be surprised if a fortress-turned-ring could travel by teleport key (or by bulk teleport?)
• I still think that most of the magics should still be extremely easy to unlock. A sufficient bribe to a revision mage, combined with the promise that it's not THAT much knowledge, would probably convince the mage to give a tip or two, all you really need to unlock the magic. With such a huge world, they only need to find one mage who is desparate for money and they'll be good to go. In the case of Skin Magic, Joon didn't even need a tutorial to unlock. It sounds like a brief description from a book was enough for gem magic. The bar for most magics should be very low indeed.
• I agree with amaryliss. The social and magical skills are much harder to come by, and pushing those to the teammates has considerable advantage. Also, who would expect you to be a mage 14 times over, all with ~level 30 skill potential. That would be a powerful element of surprise
• In a real sense, writing rational characters just got somewhat harder for our fearless author. Now that Amaryllis has spent nearly a year in the time chamber planning, every contingency and every concieveable plan should be pretty much figured out. This sets the bar very high!
• I'm pretty surprised that the technology gap is so large on Aerb, now that I think about it. All these dream-skewered, they should have picked up an engineer or five. One in 100 or so americans are engineers, and there were 1000 or so skewered individuals. If they're all from america, we'll get 10 engineers or so (but probably somewhat less if we sample from the whole world). That should be enough for the academics to jump-start modern technology.

u/akaltyn [+12] (a day later)

Re engineers, you have a starting infrastrucure problem. Knowing modern 21st century technology isnt going to make you able to rebuild it all from scratch. An electrical engineer probably doesn't know how to mine and refine copper and mass manufacture wiring for example. Whereas Amarylis can look for specific bits of knowledge she needs to bridge the gap

Also, dreamskewered are generally believed to be mentally ill iirc. So getting people to take your advice might be difficult.

u/adgnatum [+1] (a day later)

Oh right, all those entads they can't conventionally use except as bargaining chips. I'd forgotten. Maybe Amaryllis doesn't want to give that up so quickly?

u/munkeegutz [+1] (a day later)

Well if I was going to rank entads, I'd say: -Entads they can use directly -Entads owned by the family, which can be traded for ones they can use directly -Entads they won't ever be able to use

They should at least try to trade the family entads for usable ones. Aumanns are looking an awful lot like food right now though

u/Laborbuch [+13] (a day later)

The character interaction in these four chapters was really enjoyable; characters becoming aware of their problems due to introspection, and then facing them, is probable the greatest impact this story will have on me personally.

For something completely different: As someone who worked for a long time as a part-time projectionist in movie theatres, I want to point out that these devices are loud. Modern digital projectors are loud due to the many fans and ventilation required to keep the projector cool, and analogue projectors are loud for to the mechanical interactions; shutter, sprockets, wheels, and simply the clatter of jerking through the reel. Due to the slack before and after the aperture the preceding and following reel is moving at constant speeds, but around the aperture it's start-stopping 24 times per second. On the other hand, my experience is biased towards professional big screen projectors, I never had to deal with small, home-scale projectors likely used here.

So it's loud.

u/cthulhuraejepsen [+12] Fruit flies like a banana (a day later)

I very nearly included a bit about Grak having put up a standing sound ward in the specific place where the film projector sits, but couldn't quite find a place where it didn't feel out of place, and since it didn't really push characterization, I left it out. But yes, film projectors are loud enough that if you were sitting next to one (which you'd almost have to be in a room that size) it would be uncomfortably loud. Presumably the sound is then wired to a speaker that's outside the sound-cancelling ward.

(I'm hoping that I don't make many mistakes with this, but might, since film is more of a hobby for me than an area of expertise.)

u/valeskas [+11] (5 hours later)

I wonder, if the question of which entads to feed to Zona is a solvable mistery at this point.

Anyblade+Earth Backpack+Ornate Helicopter?

u/Izeinwinter [+9] (14 hours later)

The helicopter will not fit in a closet. The anyblade, yhea, not seeing much chance she will pass on that. Earth backpack might not qualify as an entad at all.

u/valeskas [+9] (15 hours later)

The helicopter will not fit in a closet.

If Anyblade works as expected, the closet will be resizable.

u/Takashoru [+7] (17 hours later)

Doesn't it only make things that are bladed weapons, though?

I don't think giving the murderous haunted mansion the ability to form bladed weapons from any surface is a positive step.

u/reilwin [+11] (23 hours later)

This comment has been edited in support of the protests against the upcoming Reddit API changes.

Reddit's late announcement of the details API changes, the comically little time provided for developers to adjust to those changes and the handling of the matter afterwards (including the outright libel against the Apollo developer) has been very disappointing to me.

Given their repeated bad faith behaviour, I do not have any confidence that they will deliver (or maintain!) on the few promises they have made regarding accessibility apps.

I cannot support or continue to use such an organization and will be moving elsewhere (probably Lemmy).

u/Takashoru [+2] (23 hours later)

Good point. Seems like she can already do that to some extent, and other house-shapes aren't really her goal, so hopefully we won't see that happen.

u/Noumero [+7] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (5 hours later)

Teleportation key. Maybe find a spare before doing that. Sable would also be useful — it would be inconvenient to have to unload all furniture from Zona every time she wants to turn humanoid, otherwise.

I wonder what would happen if they feed the locus to her... Or the bottle, at least.

u/valeskas [+11] (5 hours later)

The bottle is enchanted, not an entad, I think. Locus has a soul, so not an entad either.

Anyblade+Teleportation Key+Sable would be a funny combination, since it probably holds maximum sentimental value.

If TK is actually one sharded entad and feeding one piece kills all others, that would be some drama.

u/GeeJo [+9] Custom Flair (7 hours later)

Teleport Key doesn't seem overly useful if it directly translates, since it only allows the user to teleport to places they've already been. Which, for Zona, would be limited to various points around the edge of the Bottomless Pit.

u/DCarrier [+1] (a day later)

Or to specific sites, though that has its own problems.

Is that the only area Zona can go? Maybe if she gets the key she'll slowly move around. Also, she's pretty heavy, but carrying her around isn't impossible.

u/sicutumbo [+10] (9 hours later)

Even if the teleportation key does work as intended, is it a good idea to give the near gleefully homicidal and sadistic Zona the ability to teleport at will?

u/xartab [+3] (a day later)

Bah, she's just tsundere.

u/Makin- [+2] homestuck ratfic, you can do it (6 hours later)

Ornate Helicopter

I reread WTC recently but somehow I don't remember what this is. Someone explain?

Anyway, if we're just munchkining I'd put Ropey in it, since that would maybe make Tiff more friendly to the party. Though it's implied Ropey would die, so I don't think they will actually do that.

u/valeskas [+3] (6 hours later)

what this is

A trophy from final battle with Larkspur.

u/Makin- [+2] homestuck ratfic, you can do it (6 hours later)

They ended up taking it with them? I thought they left the helicopters behind.

u/valeskas [+3] (6 hours later)

Juniper suggested to hide it with bulk teleportation, and Fenn provided the spell and ingredients. Presumably it is still hidden.

u/Calsem [+2] (20 hours later)

why do you want to feed a evil psychopath entads? That house is literally haunted and the last thing it needs is more power.

u/sicutumbo [+7] (21 hours later)

Pursuit of science > self preservation

u/Makin- [+9] homestuck ratfic, you can do it (5 hours later)

Excellent chapter. My predictions were completely wrong, as always, which actually makes me enjoy the story more.

I gotta say though, that either we're reaching endgame or I have no idea where the story is going. Maybe some heavy timeskips?

u/Escapement [+13] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (12 hours later)

Amaryllis was barefoot in the ‘kitchen’ when I woke up, making pancakes and eggs using stuff she’d taken from the backpack.

Barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen? I always thought of Mary as a strong independent woman...

Edit: The above was intended to be a joke, not a serious comment or criticism.

u/mojojo46 [+7] (18 hours later)

Oh god, is cthulhuraejepsen going to go full Heinlein with his female characters?

u/akaltyn [+7] (a day later)

He hasn't started talking about pointy nipples yet so hopefull not

u/Takashoru [+2] (17 hours later)

I cringed at this too. Unsure what the relevancy is yet, assuming there is some beyond the obvious.

u/cthulhuraejepsen [+25] Fruit flies like a banana (20 hours later)

This is one of those things that I found wildly funny when I was writing it, but didn't expect to tickle anyone quite the way it tickled me; Amaryllis is barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, but in contrast to the common figure of speech she's plotting to establish an economic and technological powerhouse of a nation. I'd hesitate to call that a 'joke', but the juxtaposition was intended to be what was highlighted there.

u/Takashoru [+7] (20 hours later)

Ah, that makes sense. I was aware that there was a subversion there, but I wasn't sure what level I was supposed to be interpreting it on. It's a little bit more funny now that I know there's not something deeper I should be worrying about.

Thanks very much for clarifying!

(And, of course, thanks very much for the chapters! This was the highlight of my day, and I spent the hour or two during and after reading it in a good mood.)

u/infomaton [+6] (12 hours later)

What's (arguably) wrong with Kinsey's work?

u/Izeinwinter [+21] (14 hours later)

Kinseys research was mainly based not on surveys, but on a huge body of interviews, which is both good - in that the lizardman constant is a lot lower when giving bullshit replies means you have to lie to a well trained interviewer to their face, and bad in that it put a lot of selection pressure on his data.

By the nature of the process, he got information about the sexual habits of people willing to sit down and tell a grad student about their sexuality, which is.. probably not a very representative sample of the population as a whole.

It also has not been replicated much, but that is mostly because people doing follow-up research just did not generally have the funds or the disciples to do in-person interviews by the thousands. So they used surveys instead.

What this means is that Kinseys numbers on how common various things are, are almost certainly wrong, due to sample bias.

That is not what Amarylis used his research for, however, and on things like "These are types of human sexuality that exists" Kinsey is a magnificent source. Because, well, he and his grad students talked to one heck of a lot of people.

Note that there are no good data on how common various sexualities or kinks are - We have a hard lower bound (1.3 %) based on the rate of same sex marriages in jurisdictions where it has been legal for a long time - marrying someone of the same sex is a statement that says "I am queer" with a whole lot more credibility than any survey, and the numbers from year 10 though 15 after legalization sampling the entire population fairly without any "we have been living together for 20 years and it is legal now" effects.

However that number is unlikely to be even close to the real prevalance, because it only gets those members of the queer community who settle down into long-term monogamy and want to make that a legal commitment, which given the subcultures, uhm, yhea.

Surveys return answers all over the map, depending on how they are phrased. The highest numbers come from surveys that simply ask what gender your last sex partner was. These are the ones that sneak into double-digit percentages. Apparently there are a whole lot of people having same-sex sex without considering themselves anything other than straight.

u/phylogenik [+6] (13 hours later)

Are there sufficiently large fixed startup and cooldown costs to using the time dilation chamber (either in units time or magical energy?)? If there aren't, why not use it for periods of a day (or two), alternating companions each day? From the perspective of everyone but Amaryllis they’d be spending ~3 months straight cooped up with her, though that’s easily solved by having each of them spend a day in the chamber alone every so often to recuperate (Amaryllis, meanwhile, would have to wait for 1-2 minutes outside; you could occasionally even pair up e.g. Fenn and Juniper for a day, I doubt they'd mind the opportunity). The transitions could be dialed in to reduce friction and unless the chamber needs substantial real-world time to start, it doesn’t seem like it would delay them substantially.

u/sicutumbo [+10] (15 hours later)

“Time to cycle up and down?” asked Amaryllis.

“Five minutes and ten minutes, respectively,” said Zona.

“And the maximum rate it can attain?” asked Amaryllis, still looking at the chamber.

“One day every minute,” said Zona.

From "Face of the Place"

Using it for a day at a time would give you a little less than 4 days per hour if you don't spend any time at all swapping people. Drastically worse than their current average of over 30 days per hour, although we don't know the precise amount of time spent when Amaryllis is outside the chamber. It's not an efficient use of time comparatively. I would say that using it for a week at a time is the lowest you should go for effective use.

I don't think that they need to be super strict about swapping in order to avoid interpersonal conflict. Anyone can end the time dilation at any time from the inside, so it's best to just keep it running until there's a problem. The only reason to limit it to a month at a time is to do check ups.

u/phylogenik [+5] (16 hours later)

ah, there we go! figured it might have been mentioned earlier, but couldn't recall. At ~4 days per hour you get the 40 week pregnancy done with in ~70 hours (or 280*(1+15)/60 = 74.7 hours, with no friction) -- too bad they're on such a time crunch or this might have been more easily manageable, and bought each of them several months of R&R too. A weekly rotation puts them at 40*(7+15)/60 = 14.7 h, vs the 10*(28+15)/60 = 7.2 h it's taking them now. Though I suppose they might need several years if the dryad emerges altricial (which would further cramp the chamber if companions tag along).

I wonder if the time dilation chamber works on the locus/bottle? Could help with their limited space problems in the future if so (or if there are other, generalized magics that could shrink them or expand space). Also, can the time dilation chamber slow time for its contents? They might have considered chucking the bottle in if so and buggering off on other quests, though that would not have been without risks.

u/sicutumbo [+2] (16 hours later)

I wonder if the time dilation chamber works on the locus/bottle? Could help with their limited space problems in the future if so (or if there are other, generalized magics that could shrink them or expand space). Also, can the time dilation chamber slow time for its contents? They might have considered chucking the bottle in if so and buggering off on other quests, though that would not have been without risks.

I guess it depends on whether the space inside the bottle counts as additional area for the time dilation chamber. It seems like it's limited by volume, otherwise it would have been made bigger, but it's kind of unknown at this point. They can't test it until they have Solace back either, because the whole point is that the Locus is dying quickly.

I rather doubt that it can make things go more slowly in addition to the function we see here. It seems too powerful for a single thing to do both. In addition, I don't think it would be a good idea to do that even if they could. So far, they've had one party member killed and a few nearly so in the course of a few months. It isn't likely that Amaryllis could carry a baby to term even if the Locus wasn't a concern.

u/dalitt [+1] (15 hours later)

If the startup and cooldown costs are ~5 minutes per cycle, daily rotation costs 24 hours, which the protagonists believe is dangerous for the locus. But it does seem to me decreasing the periods in the chamber to a week or so wouldn't cost too much time.

u/adgnatum [+5] (a day later)

I hadn't really expected Groundhog Day to be relevant again. I think Arthur is being a bit too harsh on that beloved classic, but he's been through a lot. I'll give him a pass for that. Groundhog day is also about being able to change anything you want and have none of it matter, raising profound philosophical doubts about what, if anything, has meaning in that kind of scenario. Then, of course, Phil Connors learns to play the piano.

...Maybe our heroes need to give the house an instrument. Not necessarily magically. Just hand one over.

-----

Omar Antoun got a bad deal with his forge frenzy. In fairness, his was before they were well-known (if not well-understood.) If the magical nature of entads is verifiable, maybe the correct response is some sort of program to care for these people in exchange for the entads. It seems like an expensive and difficult thing to fake. The hardest part might be trying to determine how far back the effect started.

How long was Omar affected? Was his whole life planned so that he'd be that guy making that house? Does the DM "inspire" frenzies directly?

-----

We still haven't really answered Grak's technical question as to how Zona can operate as a warder.

“You don’t want to hear the end?” asked Zona.

There's more?

-----

What should the outcome of Ropey + Zona be? What is Juniper thinking? Is Ropey supposed to stand in for friendliness?

-----

EDIT to restore:

oh, and we narrowly missed the moment where Juniper and Zona connected as DMs, in a way. Maybe he just needs to get some rest. Then he can teach the house to DM in ways that do not involve gruesome horror.

-----

Hm, missed the update by nearly an entire day. Clearly I need a better notification system. >!No-tiff-ication.!<

Meta joke: >!I alt-tabbed to a streamer I follow, and we in chat were surprised when a cat appeared. I think browser tabs count as a book.!<

u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (a day later)

Omar Antoun got a bad deal with his forge frenzy.

True, but in fairness, while Arthur could have done better, he already gave Omar a much better deal than just "toil away futilely, in abject poverty, until you die with your work not even nearly finished," which was what would have happened without him.

Don't punch a gift horse in the mouth, and all that.

u/CouteauBleu [+2] We are the Empire. (4 days later)

Don't punch a gift horse in the mouth, and all that.

Oh my god this shouldn't have made me laugh so hard.

u/akaltyn [+2] (a day later)

Was his whole life planned so that he'd be that guy making that house? Does the DM "inspire" frenzies directly?

we dont know if the "npc" characters are full simulated human brains, like Joon seemingly is, or if they are simpler AI. (The former would require ridiculous amounts of processing power given the size of the world, but who knows.) The DM has already been shown to be able to implant information into minds, as with Joon's acquiring new knowledge and skills, so the forge frenzy would simply be that taken up to 11, with a single overpowering desire incorporated into it. If they're something more like the AI we make with modern techology its pretty trivial.

u/LordGoldenroot [+1] (a day later)

Although I suppose we have to question whether he was being truthful or not, the DM did say that Aerb was a world at least equivalent to what Earth is, so it most likely the knowledge + drive option.

u/Croktopus [+7] (a day later)

These chapters were just so...crushing...

I think it's kinda cuz like...Joon and Amaryllis didn't do anything. That they didn't succumb. Cuz if you did, you could say "ha it's just that typical trope" and like...you're accustomed to that stuff already. But now it's just like...like Amaryllis. There's this emotional suspense that just isn't gonna go away.

And that's all, like, after Arthur turns out to be kind of a deranged self-destructive deeplier-than-expected flawed individual.

u/CouteauBleu [+7] We are the Empire. (5 days later)

“Many things,” said Amaryllis with a nod. “It’s unbelievable how much Uther brought over from Earth. I’d thought, when I started, that I’d find a few places where he’d been obviously influenced by what he’d grown up with on Earth, but it’s almost overwhelming how many parallels there are. Even his name is taken from Earth legend, did you know that?”

“Well, usually it’s ‘Pendragon’, but yeah, I knew,” I replied. “But that’s not actually on him, unless you want to judge an adolescent boy for his choice in names. The Penndraig name was sitting here, on Aerb, waiting for him. At least he didn’t call himself Megatron.”

Oh my god, I just realized this was a callback to this line in chapter 7:

“Arthur Pendragon?” asked Reimer. “I thought we weren’t doing copycat names.”

“I said you couldn’t be a warforged named Megatron,” I replied with a roll of my eyes.

u/CouteauBleu [+4] We are the Empire. (4 days later)

It's been a while since I've posted long obsessive stream-of-thought feedback. Well, wait no more, for I am tired and I have nothing better to do! (well, that was the case when I started writing it; turns out those take some time, actually)

"She reminds me of him, [...] Headstrong. Fearless."

Is that a disguised insult? We know from Zona's story that she has no love at all for Uther. Maybe she's saying that she sees the same arrogance in his great-granddaughter.

some of it was the tint of unreality that still sometimes seemed to hang over everything like a fog

Yeah, I think it hasn't quite sunk in how many times they avoided death by pure luck in the last few weeks. I'm probably gonna make a count of it at some point.

"Usually I would leave one alive, or two if I could separate them without too much trouble, then appear before them and make them answer my questions about the state of the world."

“Oh, certainly I’ve done things like that,” said Zona. “A door slams shut, trapping one member of a party away from the others, and I go to work making a display of their death to whatever extent I’m able, so that when the main group comes to the rescue of their fellow, he’s a macabre display of arteries and organs. You’ll have to clean up a few of those, they’re scattered around the rooms, which is another point in favor of my having permanent residents again, I suppose.”

The more Zona talks about the people she killed, the more I wonder: did she let anyone leave? I don't know how many adventurers made their way in the fortress, if she was taking her time and being dramatic, there must have been at least a few who tried begging for their life or negotiating? Someone could have offered to fetch an entad for her in exchange for the release of a hostage, or something similar. I don't think that's likely, because if people had survived Kuum Doona, then they would have spread the word, unless Zona had some way to swear them to secrecy.

It's interesting that the group is considering the possibility of living in Kuum Doona, even though the fortress has shown both the ability and the willingness to kill them all at any moment. It draws a lot of parallels with Fallatehr, who they were unwilling to have such an arrangement with. I wonder how much of it is the insidiousness of soul magic, how much of that is that Kuum Doona already had an opportunity to kill them and didn't take it, and how much is that Zona looks like a cute girl.

"but I kind of wonder what would happen if we had a sentient magic item to give to her"

“Here, if this entad were intelligent, if it were a thinking thing, you’re saying that there would be no legal repercussions for me injuring it?”

Joon isn't being very subtle about Ropey. I think he gave the game away, but I don't think Zona wants to try eating a sentient item anyway.

“He was dream-skewered,” said Zona. [...] “It doesn’t make any sense.”

Mary said at some point that Uther being dream-skewered was a widely accepted theory among scholars. If nothing else, it would have been pretty hard to ignore once the other dream-skewered started to notice "Hey, this guy just copied over Star Wars and Lord of the Rings and stuff". That suggests that her information about the outside world is at least somewhat limited.

"Whenever you open up a book and read from it, a cat will appear, sitting on the pages."

How do the Tomes of Cat Summoning work? Does a cat appear every single time you open any book, even a backpack-summoned book? Do they disappear when you close the book? If you open and close a book multiple times, does it keep spawning cats, or does the same cat appear and disappear every time? If you open a book, injure/kill/give a ribbon to the cat, then close the book and open it again, is the cat still injured/dead/dastardly fashionable? WE NEED ANSWERS!

And that was when Uther Penndraig entered the picture.

He gave the man just enough funds to build his fortress, went there once and used it mostly as an underage sex slave, then proceeded to never talk about it to anyone ever again. The End.

But seriously, did Omar Antoun even get any money out of his deal with Uther? The chapter only mentions materials and workers. Presumably he was at least fed during the building process, and he probably got a reputation boost to his business (assuming he got it back) afterwards, but still. Poor guy.

We still don't know why Mary had bad intel about Kuum Doona not being sentient; but it looks like the answer boils down to "Uther was ashamed of it", which would be why the place was abandoned in the first place.

Things flowed more smoothly once Uther joined in the work; the King of Anglecynn and Secretary General of the First Empire did menial labor on the orders of a man most people thought was insane.

"Secretary General"? Wow, Mary was not kidding about Uther stealing a ton of stuff from Earth culture. Which... makes sense, honestly, because if you have this immense comparative advantage, why not exploit it? But it suggests that Uther wasn't a very imaginative person; or at least, that he didn't feel the need to stretch his imagination muscles. Also, we know that he wrote a few books on literary theory, so maybe he was more of an "analysis" kind of guy?

It was one of his spare weapons, one of many, the Butterfly Knife, capable of creating butterflies as it swept through the air.

"Never did they realize the true power of the Butterfly Knife, which was that it could kill anyone, anything, in one stab, provided you stabbed the person in the back while they were looking away from you." Nice pun though!

And I really like the picture this paints of Uther, of this guy who spent so long adventuring, and has collected so many items, he's basically treating most of them like trash by now. He has a dozen magic knives and swords, what's one more or less?

“We could make this place mobile,” said Vervain. “Feed it the portal ring?” asked Raven.

I assume they did give it some teleporting item, probably the ring. So why is it stuck in the Boundless Pit? Is it because the fortress was built in the pit and is fundamentally tied there? If so, I wonder if they could give it some sort of remote hologram projector to interact with the outside world.

"Uther had solved that problem in the space of a free afternoon by coercing the senators into temporarily reinstating the monarchy with supreme power vested in prisoner set to be executed, a task which he accomplished while the ink on the law was still wet".

That must have been an interesting afternoon for the citizens of Palmain. Also, you kind of have to wonder what kind of life Uther lived that he found time to do stuff like this, but none to talk with his wife or children.

The magic sword had limited intelligence, while Zona became smarter over time. I wonder if this is a result of her expanding the effects of the magic items she eats, or if she had to eat multiple sentient items to get there.

“I met with Omar Antoun, my creator, a few years after Uther had abandoned me,”

I wonder how that meeting went. Was he proud of her? Bitter? Curious? This would have been before she started murdering everyone who tried to enter.

"The ability to shrink, or otherwise adjust my shape, possibly enough that I could disguise myself as one of the mortal species."

Companion quest hook! I'm split. One the one hand, I really like Zona and I wouldn't mind her as a permanent character. On the other hand, I feel that she has very similar character beats to [Null Pointer Exception], and adding her as a character would take some spotlight away from Null.

“But with every passing day, I care less about how the truth pains you.”

<I am a house,> replied Kuum Doona. Uther kept looking at his book, not deigning to respond to that.

It had been instructed not to speak with Uther unless they were having a conversation

Okay, I wanna give Uther the benefit of the doubt, but wow. If the narration is accurate (and it would be kind of a cheat if it weren't), then the guy became really callous after all these years of adventuring.

Uther returned after a month in the Pit. His portal opened in the study, blasting wind, and he collapsed to one knee as soon as he was through it. He was bloodied and gasping for air, but eventually found his feet.

WHAT WAS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE BOTTOMLESS PIT?

u/CouteauBleu [+4] We are the Empire. (4 days later)

“But if you can’t stay stuck in a room with Amaryllis for a month without fucking her -- if I can’t let you go into a room with her for a month without flipping my lid -- then yeah, I’m going to choose to believe the best of you, her, and myself.”

I love this part, and this chapter in general. I think this crystallizes what I was thinking about the speculation last thread, where people were saying that Joon couldn't go in the chamber with Mary because then he'd totally have sex with her.

“Pregnancy hormones must be getting to me.” I pulled back from her. “You’re not --” “It was a joke, Juniper,” said Fenn, laughing.

Jackass.

“Is there … some variation in pancakes across Aerb?” “They’re crepes,” said Amaryllis.

That made me laugh. But speaking as someone who eats crepes every so often, and ate pancakes a few times in the US... yeah, there's no comparison. Pancakes are just sooooo much better.

The multitude of species on Aerb are also a problem -- sorry, not a problem, but a possible explanation for why we’re progressing so slowly

I love how politically correct Mary is. I guess that's something she had to worry about a lot, working with the Empire of Common Cause.

This was a slower method of distributing technologies, but it would reap us greater personal rewards, some of which would funnel back toward the ‘adventuring’ side of things, if we still had cause to do that (which we both assumed would be the case).

"But if we bring the world to a new technological, cultural and political revolution, we'll become the best murderhobos ever!!!" I like Mary's thinking here. So long as they don't stop meeting new people and almost getting killed in stupid ways. It worked for Uther!

“The backpack doesn’t allow me access to a computer, lap computer, or intelligent phone, but it does allow printouts of websites.”

Oh wow. Is there anything the bagpack can't do? Doesn't affect the plot my ass.

(eheh, intelligent phone)

"I’ve been in this room for longer than I’ve known you. Most of my time as a member of this group will have been spent waiting for the pregnancy to progress."

That's an interesting point, and something they usually don't consider when writing time-travel stories. I remember reading a summary of a game session of a time-travel RPG; and at one point, one character needed gun skills for a combat encounter, so she time-travelled out of the fight, spent two weeks on a range learning how to use a gun, then time-travelled back to the fight scene. I remember being really... I don't know, amused by this scene, and the fact that these two weeks were treated as a ten-seconds parenthesis and "now you have combat skills!". One of the players told me "well, that's the principle of the game, you can leverage your time powers", but I'm not sure he really got it; and that he got how long two weeks are. Like, after the fight scene, the character would probably have forgotten any conversation they were having, would probably be a little hazy on the progress of their quest, they'd probably be dressed differently, etc.

I’d have liked to believe that if Amaryllis had tried to seduce me, I would have pushed her off and left the time chamber early, but the more I thought about it, the more it seemed like I was just fantasizing instead of worrying.

Oh, so Joon likes to fantasize about attractive young girls trying to seduce him and him maturely rejecting them? That is very weird! And I've never fantasized about it!

“It makes me think,” I said, frowning slightly. “It makes me think about the choices that Arthur was faced with, and how he dealt with them.” I let out a shaky breath. “The thing I’m really worried about is that this is the tip of the iceberg. That it’s a single grain of sand on the beach, that the further we probe, the more we’re going to see, and I’m going to find that he was destroyed by this place, back from the dead but then scrubbed away.” I swallowed. “Or, maybe, something worse. I don’t know.”

You know, I feel kind of weird speculating about Uther. My understanding is that, this being a SI story, Uther is at least somewhat based on a deceased childhood friend of the author. It's mostly fictional and all, but it's still kind of awkward to say "This guy is callous" or "This guy will probably turn out to be the villain" or comment on the stuff he ripped off from Earth culture, knowing that at least some of the personality I'm commenting on is based from a real person.

Also, I'm not sure what to say about the "Uther had sex with Zona" part that isn't obvious. It's... a creative way to introduce sexual exploitation in a story, I guess. Bleh.

---

Moving on, one thing I really like about this story is how big the world is.

Alot of fantasy and science fiction revolves around one community, usually a reintepretation of some aspect of American society that inspired the author. In Demolition Man, the world is Los Angeles; in 1984, the world is made of three variations of an uniform totalitarian dystopia; in DC and Marvel (and if we're honest, Worm), the world in changed by the rise of superheroes, 95% of which are American; in Stargate, every planet only has one town of relevance, within walking distance of its gate.

And that's fine, because all these works want to deliver their message or their escapism, and it's easier to do that with a narrow scope; but it also feels like something is lost on aggregation, like writers are collectively saying that the world is simple, and there's only ever one aspect of it that matters. Which makes me wish for works that say "no, the world is diverse and complicated, and you can't make broad statements about it because different places have different cultures".

I think this is something alexanderwales really nails in his works, and this one in particular; the cultures feel varied, which is reflect both in the exposition, and the fact that the protagonists can spend months going in a new country every week, and still remain continents away from the Empire that's after them.

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Well, that's it for this chapter!

u/adgnatum [+2] (5 days later)

I love how politically correct Mary is. I guess that's something she had to worry about a lot, working with the Empire of Common Cause.

A bit political correctness, maybe a bit capital-P Precision.

Now that I think about all the times she's slipped and corrected like that... are they signs? Distinct moments she's less guarded in what she says to the party? Trust. Hm.

(eheh, intelligent phone)

This had escaped my notice. Thanks for bringing it up.

u/CouteauBleu [+3] We are the Empire. (5 days later)

There are other moments where Mary shows a very pro-diversity mindset. For example, in chapter 49:

“Is this guy really dumb enough to go after us with just him and the devil girl?” asked Fenn.

“I would think you wouldn’t be one to talk about mixed parentage like that,” said Amaryllis with a frown.

u/CommonMisspellingBot [+1] (4 days later)

Hey, CouteauBleu, just a quick heads-up:
alot is actually spelled a lot. You can remember it by it is one lot, 'a lot'.
Have a nice day!

^^^^The ^^^^parent ^^^^commenter ^^^^can ^^^^reply ^^^^with ^^^^'delete' ^^^^to ^^^^delete ^^^^this ^^^^comment.

u/CouteauBleu [+12] We are the Empire. (an hour later)

Awww... now it's going to be weeks before I can make jokes comparing the author to Gabe Newel again!

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Reading the end of chapter 92 has been one of the most horrifying story experiences I've had in a long time, right there with Ward spoiler.

u/FireHawkDelta [+3] ** (19 hours later)

Can you tag that? I'm not caught up in Ward yet, planning to binge after finals.

u/CouteauBleu [+1] We are the Empire. (19 hours later)

Sorry.

u/deathguard6 [+3] (a day later)

I just wanted to say I started this novel over the weekend and I was hooked. I stayed up way to late before work to keep reading since I had to know what happened. Hopefully you will continue to write since it has been great so far

Thanks very much.

u/AStartlingStatement [+3] (an hour later)

Four new chapters, I'm happy I checked the sub before I went to sleep!

u/deathguard6 [+1] (a day later)

!subscribeme

u/monkyyy0 [+1] (a day later)

He's going to nope out in less then a week

u/None [+1] (8 days later)

found this, read it in a couple days, haven’t felt this way about anything since i read worm for the first time. unbelievably good work.

u/RMcD94 [-6] (14 hours later)

gift economy

“Of course,” said Zona.

Good thing the isolated only gets people via a heavy selection bias and can only quiz them on subjects it presumably already knows (how would you ask someone to explain a gift economy if you've never heard of it) sapient house has heard of that...

We do things for each other because that’s how we choose to interact with each other, rather than because there are explicit agreements that we’re at risk of violating

And after asking is she knew what it was he then explains it anyway

u/CouteauBleu [+11] We are the Empire. (18 hours later)

Man, you must be super annoying in movie theaters.

u/RMcD94 [-1] (a day later)

This is so beyond a comment that I expect from this subreddit that I am blown away

u/CouteauBleu [+10] We are the Empire. (a day later)

Sorry, I'm being aggressive.

Re this being r/rational: I'm not saying you should shut off your brain and just accept everything, but you're being really, really annoyingly nitpicking. For instance:

And after asking is she knew what it was he then explains it anyway

Yeah, that's a thing I do all the time. Maybe it's annoying, but it ensure clear communication, and most people seem fine with it. You didn't have to act sarcastic like this a proof of incredibly poor writing.

u/RMcD94 [-1] (a day later)

Yeah, that's a thing I do all the time. Maybe it's annoying, but it ensure clear communication, and most people seem fine with it. You didn't have to act sarcastic like this a proof of incredibly poor writing.

I never called it incredibly poor writing, nor was I even being sarcastic at him explaining. I simply pointed out that you're stretching a character's knowledge (how many random people that I quiz in the street will have a heard of gift economy, and the intellectual capacity of this world has meant to have been sapped by the alternative routes of magic) and then doing it needlessly on top of it.

If there's no point in having her know what the gift economy is, have her say no to the answer.

I didn't point out his explanation as being an absurd part of his character, I pointed it out as being pointless for the story that she knows that. If she did know it and he didn't explain it at least he would have saved some lines of text.

How many adventurers and magic users study economics in this world? And then even how many economic classes actually go into gift economies (in my degree in Economics I never spoke or heard the words once for example).

What's the purpose of the character knowing that? Are there economic implications we're meant to take away from the general knowledge of economics being much better known in this world?

u/ArisKatsaris [+6] Sidebar Contender (a day later)

If there's no point in having her know what the gift economy is, have her say no to the answer.

There's a difference between her saying "no" and Joon needing four paragraphs to explain what a gift economy is, and then giving her time to digest the concept, and her saying "yes" and needing a sentence just to (Watsonian-reason) verify that they do have the same concept in mind and (Doylist-reason) explain it to the readers briefly.

How many adventurers and magic users study economics in this world?

Probably at least all those who are at the same time kings.

What's the purpose of the character knowing that?

That's the sort of thing you can ask at the end of the story, if no Doylist purpose was revealed.

Until such time you're being needlessly aggressively, by merely assuming that the house must by-default be ignorant in regards to economics, and that there must be an explicit reason if she's not ignorant.

u/RMcD94 [+0] (a day later)

There's a difference between her saying "no" and Joon needing four paragraphs to explain what a gift economy is, and then giving her time to digest the concept, and her saying "yes" and needing a sentence just to (Watsonian-reason) verify that they do have the same concept in mind and (Doylist-reason) explain it to the readers briefly.

Maybe, that summary seems to do it justice well enough though. What more would you need to add?

Probably at least all those who are at the same time kings.

Yeah someone already said "she learned it from Arthur" and I already responded to why I didn't think that. Maybe I misunderstood the whole child abuse thing.

Until such time you're being needlessly aggressively, by merely assuming that the house must by-default be ignorant in regards to economics, and that there must be an explicit reason if she's not ignorant.

Aggressive? Can you explain why you think that's an appropriate word choice for someone thinking that a character knowledge feels out of place? Of all things you could have described the comment as, you went with aggressive? Really?

If you really think the comment is aggressive then I don't really think the problem lies with the precise details of what personally broke my immersion.

I generally assume everyone is ignorant of gift economies. A dungeon master has an explicit reason not to be, but even then I would imagine a survey of dungeon masters would make it rare, but my suspension of disbelief is fine with stretching that far.

u/ArisKatsaris [+6] Sidebar Contender (a day later)

Maybe, that summary seems to do it justice well enough though. What more would you need to add?

A multi-paragraph analysis of how expectations of reciprocity because of custom can be binding enough in their way, even without explicit agreements.

Aggressive? Can you explain why you think that's an appropriate word choice for someone thinking that a character knowledge feels out of place?

I don't know how to objectively analyze the tone of your comments, but yes, that's how you are coming across to me: aggressive. Perhaps it's the repeated questions one after another, or your complaint being about a single line of text being added, or how you generalize from her answer to demanding that this means we must derive specific detaiks about the world or whatever.

u/RMcD94 [+1] (2 days later)

I don't see how that's relevant enough to be included. Certainly could have just said I'll explain later but suffice to say and then repeat what he said. If what he said is enough to explain the concept to ignorant readers why wouldn't it be enough for ignorant characters?

I don't see how multiple questions can be aggressive, that's how things work, it's not like I just have one question and move on to the next one, maybe if we were having a real time chat. What alternative is there? See that's another question in this comment, I am still not intentionally being aggressive.

I don't think a complaint no matter how nitpicky can be called aggressive. At least not because it is a complaint. What part of complaining about something small makes something aggressive? Can you define what you mean by aggressive because I don't think we can possibly be operating under the same definition? If in reading a chapter the only problem I had was with a single line then if anything that seems complimentary.

And finally I don't know about demanding but yes any information in the story reveals more information about the world than explicitly said. There are a number of possibilities, perhaps the entire medieval world was educated in Economics etc

u/None [+3] (2 days later)

[deleted]

u/RMcD94 [+1] (2 days later)

Your original comments were sarcastic which makes them inherently mocking.

I don't think I said it wasn't sarcastic/mocking.

You didn't offer a solution, you were only offering sarcasm to the way something was worded so it could easily be perceived as aggression to the author.

Someone sarcastically commenting about something is not aggression. My solution that I was suggesting was quite clear to me (that is for her not to know), I even reinforce this by pointing out that he explained it anyway. I could have explicitly stated it but I thought it was obvious.

You could have easily worded your original point in a constructive manner and not gotten so much criticism for it.

I could have. I don't mind criticism of my comments, if anything your responses have improved my opinion of the subreddit after Mr "Annoying at Movie Theatres"

Sarcasm isn't aggression still.

u/None [+2] (2 days later)

[deleted]

u/RMcD94 [+1] (2 days later)

This means every single person reading it can interpret it differently since you didn't explicitly follow up your sarcastic comments with an actual point or solution even if you had one in your head. I could easily see how someone can read your direct sarcasm as a passive aggressive dig to the author's writing skill.

In the future I'll be sure to clarify. It also can't be both passive aggressive and aggressive since those are mutually exclusive. I wouldn't call criticising an author's writing skill aggressive anyway.

Sarcasm and aggression can have overlap, they aren't mutually exclusive.

Sure but sarcasm still isn't aggression. You can be aggressive and also be being sarcastic but the sarcasm has nothing to do with it.

Commenting in such an abrasive manner than turning around and saying the standards of the subreddit are going downhill (in several places throughout this whole thread), this is what rubs me the wrong way.

I don't (didn't?) value this subreddit because of its niceness I value it because of its willingness to ask questions. The comment threads were always enjoyable to read because they made me aware of things that I had missed in the text or things that I hadn't viewed from that angle. While I appreciate your consistency downvotes only bother me insomuch as they represent someone not responding to me. When someone agrees with someone else an upvote can usually summarise everything a comment would, but a disagreement (which is sadly what people use upvoting and downvoting for) cannot be encapsulated by a downvote. Even if people used it for its original intention as a way to keep things on topic there would still be times when it wasn't clear a digression had actually occurred.

u/Gilgilad7 [+2] House Atreides (2 days later)

It also can't be both passive aggressive and aggressive since those are mutually exclusive.

That's true enough in a logical sense. But even still, one person could perceive a comment as aggressive and another could perceive it as passive aggressive at the same time if it is unclear enough though.

In the future I'll be sure to clarify.

Thanks, that would help a lot. I also like seeing good topics, but unclear comments can become toxic since they are easily open to misinterpretation. I think niceness in a critique goes a long way to conveying intent that you want an earnest discussion and having it taken seriously. It also shields a criticism from several derailing discussions as has happen in this very comment chain. And these are just the practical reasons why a nice approach works well.

u/akaltyn [+2] (a day later)

Good thing the isolated only gets people via a heavy selection bias and can only quiz them on subjects it presumably already knows (how would you ask someone to explain a gift economy if you've never heard of it) sapient house has heard of that...

I'd explain it as her having been educated by Arthur and read his various books, we know he imported a bunch of psychology, politics and economics knowledge from earth with him, so its very possible that was included.

u/RMcD94 [+1] (a day later)

Maybe but it was my understanding that she was just the sword level intelligence then, and the intelligence entad came later. Hence the child abuse.

If it also came with a photographic memory then I didn't realise that.

And yeah I'm not shocked that the phrase gift economy exists in their world even though it's barely 100+ years old in ours, they are in the modern era and Arthur exists.

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