103 KiB
[RT][WIP] Worth the Candle, ch 94 (Grayscale)
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Author: u/cthulhuraejepsen Fruit flies like a banana*
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URL: https://archiveofourown.org/works/11478249/chapters/33742929
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Score: 192
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Created: 2018-05-10T07:46:41
Post:
Comments:
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+92] Fruit flies like a banana (7 minutes later)
ch 95 and 96 are (mostly) written, but they belong in what I think will be a fairly sizeable chunk of chapters, in a way that this chapter (mostly) doesn't. Ideally, the next time I post will be the conclusion of this arc, and maybe of this book, but as fair warning, it might be a while (and as a consequence, will be a large amount of text).
Also, this officially means that Worth the Candle has crossed the half million word mark! Hooray!
u/mustyoldgoat [+27] (16 hours later)
Love it. This last arc has been excellent. Probably your best. Your handling of interpersonal conflict has been wonderful. You have come a long way since Shadows of the Limelight from a 3/10 to an 8.5/10 on a consistent basis.
If I can add my two cents (which I get to, but am trying to make my request a little less offensive, as a random reader on the internet) I would ask that you put a $5 level on your Patreon. I cannot bring myself to donate $1 a month (unless you are sure about this), but I would be happy to do $5.
I get that you heavily imply that you have a fine income from your day job, but so do some of your readers.
If this new economy of web fiction is going to work in the long run, we need people like you (pioneering authors writing excellent work) to play by the rules (we pay you and you write as you will). Wildbow is at $4,702 (he writes well and frequently if a bit formulaically) Pirateaba is at $3,478 monthly (she is prolific and writes well) and PuDDleS4263 is at $4,801 monthly (he is prolific and is OK at writing). You write prolifically and very well. By getting your Patreon figures up (even if you donate it to charity) you inspire others to copy you and increase the quantity (and potentially quality [here's to hoping]) of work available in the ecosystem.
When you compare this to a first time advance for a beginning fantasy author ($5,000 for TOR - $1,000-$3,000 for smaller presses) it can appear attractive to many potential authors and the whole community of readers can benefit. For while you might not be motivated by money the next Dickens (whose was paid by the word an published serially on a weekly or monthly basis) might be.
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+30] Fruit flies like a banana (17 hours later)
Yeah, I will probably be adding a new reward tier in the next few days; my wife has stepped up as manager, and is getting things ready for me, mostly so I don't have to handle what I find to be the more stressful parts of the business side of things. It's sort of a "do work you want to do in exchange for money" type thing, where it definitely is worth the effort by any objective measure ... but I still don't want to do the work.
I've talked a fair amount about how writing is my primary hobby and form of stress relief, the thing that I do at the end of the day after putting my son to bed in order to unwind, and how I kind of worry about compromising that by adding job-like aspects onto it.
Right now, the thinking is that I'll have chapters e-mailed a day early at a higher tier (which I'm not hugely a fan of), a discord set up where you can talk to me (other than the normal /r/rational discord, which I also frequent, mod, and technically own) and a special room/role there, plus maybe some supplemental stuff that's not important to the story proper, or which just fleshes out side stories or worldbuilding. But I mostly want to make sure that I'm making minimal compromises to the story, and to one of the best parts of my life.
Economically, I'm not really sure that a utility-minded first-time author would choose patronage. The average first novel is something like ~90,000 words, which for me is one "fast" month or three "slow" months. Pledges are, in some respects, a long, slow grind of building up readership over time, which means that someone like Wildbow goes through years of minimal income while putting in a lot of work.
Worth the Candle is a little unconventionally structured (and to some extent, written), and the "book" lengths are hilariously inconsistent, but if you accept that it's roughly five books, then it's naive value a publisher would pay for it would be something like ~$25,000. Now granted, I don't think that it has the polish of a manuscript (though I've done slush-pile reading and lord knows it's better than most of that garbage), but it's kind of hard to look at the numbers as they stand and think that patronage is the rational way to go, especially since there are only a small handful of people making real money from the patronage system.
(I do like the complete freedom from anyone else's input; if someone doesn't like what I write, there's no actual recourse for them except to stop reading. If I had an editor/publisher/agent, there would be a contract, and someone might say "hey, you included this whole chapter where the protagonist is fucking a deer, rewrite this", with some actual consequences if I didn't comply. To me, that's the primary thing that's good about the patronage model, with the main bad thing (economics aside) being that I don't have an agent to handle networking and boring stuff for me, or a professional editor to handle (some of) the work of prose.)
u/rubix314159265 [+19] (18 hours later)
I wish you had picked a different example. There are in-story reasons for the main character to spend a chapter fucking a deer, and now that feels ever so slightly more likely.
u/Sailor_Vulcan [+8] Champion of Justice and Reason (18 hours later)
You mean the locus? Why would Joon fuck the locus? Also, does anyone else think that the locus might have fucked Amarylis in a way that was vague and not clearly defined, and which happened with their souls rather than with their physical bodies?
Does soul-fucking with a probably intelligent, deer-like thing count as bestiality?
u/Andreasfr1 [+21] (19 hours later)
He's got a quest, "key for seven locks", where his dick is the key... and he got 1/7 after having relations with Fenn.
... so now he might put his D in the Doe.
u/rubix314159265 [+7] (19 hours later)
He might find that achievements come with a significant power up, and one achievement is 'A key for seven locks'. Not saying it's likely, just that it has been shown by the DM to be an option.
u/Dent7777 [+2] House Atreides (a day later)
I would seriously doubt releasing your work early to a patreon subscriber wouldn't result in consistent leaking and sharing.
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+11] Fruit flies like a banana (a day later)
Ah, but what if I nicely asked them to not do that?
More seriously ... so what? My primary concern is in stifling discussion or segregating the audience, which I don't really think limited release a day early would do (though I might be wrong about that). If the worst financial case happens, and a single person pledges enough to get their chapters early, then forwards it to everyone else who would have been willing to pay, then yes, the experiment will be a conclusive failure. I don't think that's likely though, even if just because of the coordination problems.
Either way, it should cost me very little, and should result in some unknown amount of extra income, even assuming that some number of people completely ignore me nicely asking them not to share too much or too widely.
u/derefr [+2] (3 days later)
So, an incentive isn’t an incentive if you can free-ride on it, so it’s the same as having no incentive at all.
forwards it
I would propose that what would happen is more likely that you’d end up with the text posted to a pastebin and linked to from /r/rational. (And then taken down, and then a thread started about why it was taken down, culminating in the creation of /r/rational_piracy.)
I’d maybe suggest something more like teases of new chapters, dribbled out, so that none of them individually are worth sharing. Or maybe the ability to watch you work in an Etherpad/Google Docs and chat with others doing the same (which I’ve done before, but which I understand can be stressful to people with different mindsets than me.) That is: valuable ephemeral experiences, rather than valuable shareable artifacts.
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+3] Fruit flies like a banana (3 days later)
You can read some of my thoughts on piracy here, which haven't changed too much in the past few years.
Generally speaking, piracy is a case of rational self-interest. In the case of sharing though, there's usually some moral or social impetus, like the belief that information and culture should be free and not gated behind whether or not you have enough money, or because you'll get cred with a group you care about. (Ignoring, for a moment, pirates who make money on piracy, or who engage in piracy as a method of getting into a community that gives them access to high-quality sources.)
Would posting a pastebin of a chapter to this subreddit a day early gain you the moral high ground? My personal feeling is that it wouldn't, especially since I'll be doing what I can to make sure that there's no segregation of discussion, and the chapters will go out for a wide release the day after. Maybe someone will really feel like picking a fight, and also be willing to go through the effort needed to engage in that fight through posting a pastebin, rather than just complaining in the comments when the chapter comes out.
Would posting a pastebin of the chapter to this subreddit a day early represent a social gain? I don't think it would. I think a fair number of people would read it, but generally speaking, people are on the author's side. Wildbow requests that people don't share e-books of Worm or post such things to the subreddit, and generally speaking, people comply with that request.
I might be over-estimating this community, or just not in tune with community norms and modes of thought, but we'll see.
u/CouteauBleu [+4] We are the Empire. (a day later)
You are a beacon for all that would follow you! The shining light that all waiting in the darkness strive for! Now for the good of the realm and all that is holy, just take the goddamn money already!
u/Hermaan [+5] (5 hours later)
Thanks for the new chapter! When you said concluding the book I worried for a short while you meant ending the series.
u/None [+2] (10 days later)
[deleted]
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+2] Fruit flies like a banana (12 days later)
Most of the "game rule" stuff takes inspiration from a number of CRPGs I played growing up, which themselves are based on tabletop games that I played growing up, but it's all "original", in the sense that it's not based on any particular system. I was playing a lot of Tyranny when this story was in the planning stages, so it probably takes a lot of meat from there -- but that is, itself, a throwback to the isometric CRPGs of my youth.
The rules I have written out aren't playtested at all, nor comprehensive enough to run an actual game, though individual pieces (especially magic systems) are lifted from homebrew stuff in games I've run.
I don't actually think that the full system would make for good gameplay in a tabletop setting, since they weren't created with that in mind. It's also not fleshed out enough around the edges (e.g. there's a rigid definition for what 'Romance' entails, plus some benchmarks for skill levels, but nothing written down about what's going on mechanically when a 'Romance' 'roll' is made).
u/monkyyy0 [-37] (an hour later)
https://www.strawpoll.me/15669945
Just to help you out
edit// you guys aren't helping ;__;
u/sparkc [+31] (an hour later)
This is why we can’t have nice things. Trying to ‘subtly’ finagle chapters out of the author when he is kind enough to be transparent about his writing progress is how you get less information on writing progress in the future.
u/MarkArrows [+4] (20 hours later)
This is the sort of thing Fenn would pull, it was clearly made as a joke. At least that's how I saw it O___o
Tough crowd I guess
u/monkyyy0 [-15] (an hour later)
Wanting more is a compliment. If anything I'm risking worse cliffhangers as suffering amuses a great many authors.
u/Anderkent [+17] (2 hours later)
It's really not up to you to decide if something comes across as a compliment.
u/monkyyy0 [-16] (2 hours later)
So authorial intent doesn't matter? I'm getting mixed signals here
u/CouteauBleu [+25] We are the Empire. (2 hours later)
The signal you're getting is "people are pissed at you". You're not going to change that by acting smug.
Wanting more is a compliment, but asking a content creator for more content when they just explained their reasons for not delivering more content is not a compliment. It's not always rude or needy, but in that case it was.
u/Anderkent [+13] (2 hours later)
I'm not sure what you mean by authorial intent here?
The issue is that you're trying to pressure an author to release content at a different pace than what they decided is best for their process. It is hard to believe you have better information than they do on both how to make sure the content is received the best way, and to make sure they stay happily productive.
If you read writers talk about their process, it's very obvious that having people clamoring "for more, now" doesn't actually help either side. Even if you think the way you're phrasing it is a compliment, the writer feels more pressure which is usually counterproductive. And in this particular case, I don't necessarily agree that your phrasing was complimentary.
u/monkyyy0 [-11] (3 hours later)
zzzzzzz
My poll was sarcastic(you can tell by my attempts at shaming "no" votes as being beyond inane and has a perfectly good reason to vote no), and I'm being downvoted to all hell for perceived rudeness.
While your all getting on my cass for disrespecting the authors vision.
What of my amazing poll I spent entire seconds on, and my artistic vision with it; woo is me. /s
the writer feels more pressure
Citation needed
Why are you guys treating him as a fragile flower?
I don't necessarily agree that your phrasing was complimentary.
My phasing isn't the message
u/Anderkent [+14] (3 hours later)
My poll was sarcastic(you can tell by my attempts at shaming "no" votes as being beyond inane and has a perfectly good reason to vote no), and I'm being downvoted to all hell for perceived rudeness
Yeah, sarcasm is bad communication and you should avoid it whenever possible. Especially over text.
While your all getting on my cass for disrespecting the authors vision
No, we're getting on your case for being counterproductive and making a bad tradeoff. You make an unfunny joke, but mostly you signal impatience with the author.
Citation needed Why are you guys treating him as a fragile flower?
You don't have to be a 'fragile flower' to be bothered when people pester you. As such it's good to have a social rule that prevents excessive pestering. What you're observing is the enforcement of that rule.
I don't think I really need a citation that comments on work impact author mood, and that author mood impacts their writing?
But sure, here's a citation for the author talking about how writing status updates that they think will not be well received is stressful/unpleasant and thus likely to impact writing.
My ph(r)asing isn't the message
Phrasing is definitely part of the message, and usually more important than the literal reading. More information is exchanged in subtext than directly.
u/derefr [+1] (3 days later)
Sarcasm is covert social-signalling tool. It nearly partitions people into “people in on the subtext of your words, or who think enough like you to derive the subtext” and “people who interpret the words literally and get mad at them.” Frequently, that’s the whole point: to make these groups and see who’s in them. Usually so the first group can avoid the second group.
When you see an attempt at sarcasm fall down, it’s not “bad communication”; it’s simply that there are fewer people on the speaker’s “side” than they thought. What you’re perceiving isn’t a failure of communication; it’s the speaker losing a social gamble.
u/Anderkent [+1] (3 days later)
Right; so if you actually want to communicate literally rather than establish status and group membership, you should avoid sarcasm.
I'm not so much against sarcasm in-person, and of course myself am not perfect and sometimes fall to the temptation even online, but in general believe sarcasm doesn't belong in topical conversation online.
u/monkyyy0 [-9] (4 hours later)
You make an unfunny joke, but mostly you signal impatience with the author.
I intended to signal impatience; being told 2 chapters are "basically" ready does make me impatient
That a element of playfulness didn't come thru is whatever
pestering
1 comment and the only one at that?
Yet you have given me two walls-o-texts informing me that you find my jokes so unfunny that they become socially unacceptable?
If I didn't love arguing for its own sake, I dare say, I could find that questionable. No screw it I do find the downvotes very questionable and your vaguely associated with them.
You don't have to be a 'fragile flower' to be bothered when people pester you
A joke missing the mark, is not pestering
here's a citation
That would explain the mob
u/Anderkent [+8] (4 hours later)
Yet you have given me two walls-o-texts informing me that you find my jokes so unfunny that they become socially unacceptable?
Well, I was assuming you were interested in why you're getting the reaction you're getting, thus your continuous engagement in the conversation? If me explaining things is bothering you, why don't you just stop replying?
1 comment and the only one at that? If I didn't love arguing for its own sake, I dare say, I could find that questionable. No screw it I do find the downvotes very questionable and your vaguely associated with them.
Well, the thing is there's a population asymmetry here, right? Even if it's one comment from any particular person to the author, but that doesn't mean the author doesn't get way too many of such comments. So you can't wait for someone to repeatedly make those before you start telling them "hey maybe don't pressure the author". You do it every time you see it happening, most people just go "oh OK that makes sense", you prevent both their repeated posts and anyone else who maybe thought of it but saw the exchange.
Whereas I have no reason to believe that there is such an asymmetry in conversation between you and me.
u/monkyyy0 [+1] (14 hours later)
Well, I was assuming you were interested in why you're getting the reaction you're getting, thus your continuous engagement in the conversation? If me explaining things is bothering you, why don't you just stop replying?
I'm criticizing your argument as being anginist to your own actions; not your actions. I love to argue as I stated and I implicitly don't think your social standards should apply.
I don't have an example that wouldn't be offencive, so imagine this wasn't offensive.... think gay preacher, the problem is the preachin', even if i say "are you going to stone yourself?".
Well, the thing is there's a population asymmetry here, right?
There was not yet a joke to upvote or a karma train to cho cho on.
And by making a poll, I had in effect created a way to express impatience, without sending a new notification.
Whereas I have no reason to believe that there is such an asymmetry in conversation between you and me.
Mass downvotes put you in a position of power, because monkey brains are fun.
u/None [+6] (15 hours later)
[deleted]
u/monkyyy0 [+1] (15 hours later)
It makes sense once you hear about a blog post complaining about stress
u/None [+2] (15 hours later)
[deleted]
u/monkyyy0 [+2] (15 hours later)
Not necessarily, reading a morally outraged response and going back to downvote can be a thing; and assuming whoever first responded to me did isn't that big of an assumption
u/sparkc [+85] (2 hours later)
“So,” said Amaryllis toward the end of the meal, during a lull in conversation. “How long do you think it will take you to get over Tiff?” I stopped chewing and looked at her. A few things occurred to me at once: first, that she had waited until now to ask that question, when she’d have the easy out of moving to alone time, second, that she had probably been thinking about that question for awhile, and third, that her interest in the question wasn’t really about me, it was about her. How long will it take me to get over you?
Symbiotic souls already paying dividends for Joon via Amaryllis SOC skills.
u/CouteauBleu [+43] We are the Empire. (3 hours later)
Wow, I did not catch it, but it feels pretty blatant in hindsight.
u/xamueljones [+68] My arch-enemy is entropy (an hour later)
I feel as if this chapter touches on one of the deeper issues with transhumanism.
With the power and willingness to self-modify, there's the need to accept that some changes will result in a death of self. The same death that everyone undergoes as they grow up. You as an adult aren't the same person as you from childhood. Self-modification like Amaryllis can do just speeds up the change of identity we go throughout life plus some possible unnatural alterations to her personality.
I'm in favor of using the ability to control one's feelings towards another person, because it allows the ability to be more logical and rational when dealing with others rather than being ruled by petty and ugly emotions. However, I worry that it would prevent emotional maturity that can only come from struggling with and overcoming the darker emotions. I'm not even sure that my thoughts here are even valid, rather than just pseudo-philosophy with minimal basis in reality.
This chapter feels as if its hinting towards the dark side of transhumanism. With the possibility of being more than human, there is the possibility of being inhuman.
TLDR - I'm undecided on whether Amaryllis should have self-modified her feelings or not. One side says it's better than ugly relationship drama and the other side says self-modification can easily lead to unintentional value drift and inhuman behavior patterns.
u/sibswagl [+32] (2 hours later)
I think you make a good point about emotional maturity. If you can immediately remove or move past every negative feeling, won't that impact your emotional maturity? On the other hand, if such an ability is common place, do you need to be emotionally mature?
u/AurelianoTampa [+30] (5 hours later)
I think you make a good point about emotional maturity. If you can immediately remove or move past every negative feeling, won't that impact your emotional maturity?
I think this ties in quite well with the discussion about pharmaceuticals in this chapter. I remember when I was diagnosed with ADHD and first got on medication for it; my symptoms were never super detrimental to my life, but once they were addressed directly it was like moving out of a foggy mental haze I never knew existed... because that's all there had ever been. And even as that happened, it felt like I was "cheating" in a way, because I had spent years drilling myself into habits to deal with my inherent lack of focus and runaway thoughts. And then with a pill it was like "Oh. That was WAY too easy." I was torn between wondering how much smoother my life could have been if I had been medicated during my school days, and wondering if I would have been less developed as a person if I hadn't had to put in that extra effort.
For the record, I'm firmly on the side of "hells yes, medicate people who need it." I like who I am today, but I bet I would have liked who I was if medicated years earlier just as much.
u/swaskowi [+7] (7 hours later)
This kind of makes me want to get re diagnosed and try medication.....
u/AurelianoTampa [+3] (19 hours later)
I mean... Every person reacts differently to meds. For me, getting on them was like clearing static from an AM radio (and somehow NOT finding kooky talking head politic drivel)! For a friend of mine it let him focus and calm down... But brought extreme self-loathing, questioning if he was really "him" while medicated. Lasted until he got a new doctor and a more mellow prescription.
Best I can offer is: everyone is different. If you visit a doctor and you end up feeling worse? Go for another opinion. Me, medication helps like the difference between night and day. But it's not a a panacea, so don't kick yourself if you need something different.
I never saw meds as a miracle cure, but as another, potentially potent, way to help ourselves. Hope that helps :-)
u/sicutumbo [+5] (10 hours later)
I think that even though some adverse conditions do come with incidental benefits, it doesn't justify the detriments themselves. I usually try to reframe the question, so I'll do it for your case, even though we already agree on the conclusion: If you were given the choice to live without attention and focusing problems, and never develop the coping mechanisms that are more generally useful, or you could spend a decade of your life with limited ability to pay attention for any length of time, and gain the previously mentioned benefits, which would you choose?
u/Ermanti [-9] (11 hours later)
The thing is, EVERYONE has that issue. ADHD is an excuse to get people hooked on amphetamines. It takes DISCIPLINE in order to overcome that and focus despite your "mental haze" and random thoughts. Artificially dealing with your problems doesn't solve them, it only delays them.
u/AurelianoTampa [+25] (11 hours later)
Yeah, see, that's a lot of the sentiment I hear from people opposed to using medicine to treat mental health. That mental conditions are only moral failings, signs of weakness, a scheme concocted by Big Pharma, etc. Oddly, none of them are doctors.
I liken it more to getting glasses. To someone with perfect vision, glasses would make things blurry, or not provide much benefit at all. But you wouldn't claim that imperfect vision exists, right?
That's the same way things changed when I got on medication. Yes, I got by by putting in a ton of extra effort when I was younger... just like how I got by by sitting in the front row of my classes every year until I was taken to an optometrist at 14 and given my first set of glasses. The feeling of amazement when I realized that most people can see individual leaves on a tree and not just a green blur was almost the exact same I felt when I realized most people don't constantly need to struggle to keep their thoughts in line and on topic.
u/LazarusRises [+8] (a day later)
I remember exactly that moment when I saw individual leaves for the first time from afar. Mind-blowing.
u/CouteauBleu [+2] We are the Empire. (a day later)
Shit, now I feel bad for past-you.
I'm spending my day in a beautiful university campus, and I often find myself admiring the surroundings (usually with an eye for what qualities I'd reproduce as an architect / level designer). Now I'm going to think "wow, good thing I have perfectly good eyes".
u/LazarusRises [+2] (2 days later)
I was around 9 when I got glasses, so most of my life has been with good vision :) I also am constantly thankful for corrective lenses. That Twilight Zone episode "Enough Time" is my nightmare.
u/CouteauBleu [+1] We are the Empire. (2 days later)
Ehh, I'm sure the guy stumbles on a glasses shop eventually...
u/LazarusRises [+1] (2 days later)
Ha, that was my thought too! Though honestly I'm not sure I could grind lenses to my prescription even if I could see well.
Plus, good old TZ was never meant to be rational. Just let Rod Serling carry you away on a soothing baritone of horror.
u/CouteauBleu [+1] We are the Empire. (a day later)
That mental conditions are only moral failings, signs of weakness, a scheme concocted by Big Pharma, etc. Oddly, none of them are doctors.
Well, yeah. The doctors are in Big Pharma's pocket, obviously. :P
u/LordSwedish [+19] Q Continuum (3 hours later)
I mean, personally I don't have much of an attachment to "humanity" as a whole for myself. If I could modify myself and understood the consequences, I imagine I'd be mostly "inhuman" within a few decades.
u/Lapisdust [+4] (14 hours later)
decades
Days, weeks, or months for me but I've always felt ill at ease as a human.
u/CouteauBleu [+26] We are the Empire. (3 hours later)
I'm not even sure that my thoughts here are even valid, rather than just pseudo-philosophy with minimal basis in reality.
I'd say the second one, no offense.
I feel this reasoning falls strongly in the "And this is why it's a great thing that we get hit on the head with a truncheon every month" category.
To elaborate, I agree transhumanism would have a negative effect some forms of emotional maturity, the same way having access to computers every moment of our lives probably has a negative effect on some forms of memory. But if we had access to actual (evil-free) emotional self-modification, we wouldn't trade it for some abstract sense of emotional maturity in a million years.
u/Decht [+19] (12 hours later)
It depends on the world you live in, really. If we're able to safely and thoroughly modify away all emotional obstacles such that emotional maturity is obsolete, then it does fall into the truncheon category. If we're only able to modify away the immediate and obvious emotional obstacles, we may be blindsided by the uncommon ones. It's the difference between being stabbed with a pathogenic needle and getting vaccinated.
I'm not sure which is the case in Aerb, and I think it's fair to say Joon and Mary aren't either. They've already had to deal with a tower which stealthily modifies intuitive ethics. Suppose they find another which modifies sexual/romantic attraction, and Mary's only countermeasure is "close my eyes and sit still for a few minutes"?
On the other hand, Mary is currently looking forward to long stretches of time in an enclosed space with Joon. It might be worth it in the short term, even if it's not in the long term.
u/Nickless314 [+7] (13 hours later)
Solution: temporarily revert personality once per X days?
I mean, the ability to change who you are sounds horrible but I think a large part of the distaste comes from permanency. Taking a pill that makes you feel really good for a few hours probably sounds great. Taking a pill with long-term side-effects immediately sounds bad, and even if the permanent effect is emotionally positive, pretty sure it's still not good (I wouldn't want to feel infinite bliss indefinitely, I mean, I would, but... you know). Plus, value drift, gradual changes in personality may accumulate. Each small change you make may seem reasonable, but the endpoint may differ enough from who you were at the beginning that you may regret who you became. This makes the whole thing way too Evil. So, commit to revert all changes once per X days, giving your old self the ability to judge your current personality. Then it's more like taking Ritalin, horrible but goes away and YOU decide that yes you still want the next pill.
So to summarize, since value drift is obviously bad for trivial reasons and may have led to the Second Empire, I expect the characters to at least worry about it (cough cthulhuraejepsen cough).
Great chapter. Write quality is much more important than word count (for me).
u/Green0Photon [+5] Student in Cyoria, Minmay, and Ranvar (9 hours later)
I'm thinking that Amaryllis should decrease the feelings, but not entirely. Low enough to not be (too) distraction (so maybe a bit), but high enough that they can be dealt with to gain emotional maturity.
The problem is that the only true, permanent change that happens is the natural way, and that self-modification is more like a crutch in this scenario. Amaryllis acts as if it's a mood drug, but the point of the drugs is that we don't have a better method of permanently solving the problem. Even if the Essentialism work was permanent, it probably wouldn't solve the problem completed, Amaryllis would still be forget to change some small detail, or do it incorrectly.
Maybe that's why the soul drifts back, because there are other factors that don't get changed that make the system inconsistent, so it drifts back to a consistent state.
u/aeschenkarnos [+1] (12 days later)
Tautologically though, a smarter and/or more emotionally mature version of oneself will make better decisions. So the thing to do (IMO) is to make oneself smarter and/or more emotionally mature, and leave further progress in Self+1's more capable hands.
Personally I have very little desire to preserve my personality flaws out of mere sentiment or habit.
u/xamueljones [+1] My arch-enemy is entropy (12 days later)
Tautologically though, a smarter and/or more emotionally mature version of oneself will make better decisions.
While this is true, you still need to make a first step that improves the self. How do you know you don't make a mistake with the first change? The fear is that after making a change, I have inadvertently replaced a personality flaw with an even worse one. One realistic example is replacing laziness with increased drive to complete goals. But instead of becoming a less lazy person, I have become someone who never compromises on changing my mind once it's set, I always have to complete my goals and hang the consequences!
u/Saintsant [+42] (2 hours later)
Well, this was a pretty brutal punch in the gut. Amaryllis' heartfelt rebuttal to June's qualms about a relationship hit the nail on the head. It's a shame the ship looks like it's been scuttled permanently, and I can't even mourn it properly without feeling selfish, because I'm a hundred percent on Amaryllis' side when it comes to self-determination. Her pragmatism and decisiveness are what make her such an appealing character in the first place.
u/LupoCani [+22] (12 hours later)
I never thought I'd do this on my main account, but oh well.
dons shipper hat
If we're being optimistic, more like drydocked indefinitely?
Value-hacking is temporary, and all the underlying reasons for the value should still be there for the foreseeable future, so it's not going away permanently. Conversely, artificially suppressing the emotion seems like it would prevent her from getting over it in a conventional, permanent fashion. This creates an interesting situation where her feelings on the matter are essentially in stasis until she stops hacking herself.
u/kaukamieli [+1] (a day later)
Yea, feels like when she stops doing that she can't resist because she is not used to it anymore.
u/rubix314159265 [+9] (10 hours later)
I wouldn't say scutteled permanently. If Fenn dies, it seems reasonable for Amaryllis to stop with the upkeep. She didn't change it because she disliked wanting something, but because she disliked wanting something unobtainable.
u/eroticas [+20] (12 hours later)
Oh, this makes sense.
The dungeon master wanted the harem plot open as a possibility ("a key for seven locks"). Or at least, taunt Joon by danging it in front of him, but in a way that the DM knew he wouldn't actually enjoy.
So it designed Amaryllis to be attracted to women and to Joon, with conditions making it such that her sexuality would be initially awakened/unlocked by Joon.
No, you’re not,” I said. “Just … asexual?”
“Mostly,” said Amaryllis. She frowned at me. “Did you know before I did?”
“After our long talk in the bottle, it seemed like one of the two likely options,” I said with a shrug. “The other being that you were lesbian.” I hadn’t wanted to pry or make assumptions, but I’d really been hoping that her revulsion towards sex with me wasn’t just because it was me.
Amaryllis gave a nonchalant shrug. “A bit.”
and then
“I’ve convinced myself that I probably like kissing,” said Amaryllis. “In my fantasy, that’s as far as it goes, just the sensation of your hands on my body, and your lips on mine, as we share this bond together, temporarily forgetting that there are any barriers to separate us.” She frowned. “And sex, I imagined that you would be slow and patient, gentle and yielding, and somehow you would awaken something in me, and I would be fixed.”
“That’s not how it works,” I said. “That’s ... a male fantasy.”
“But it might be true for me, if I was meant for you,” said Amaryllis.
I bet if we dig it turns out Fenn is bisexual and attracted to Amaryllis too (and Grak is hermaphroditic anyway). In the alternate timeline Fenn's jealousy would either sublimate into attraction or dissolve if she realized sharing wasn't inherently bad. Amaryllis, for her part, has shown few signs of jealousy and is already well accustomed to the notion of political marriages not being sexually exclusive. The locus is less clear but clearly it could've been a harem / polyamorous network with Joon somewhat at the center. But Joon's actions didn't go with that plot-line, so it never came to be.
Seen in that light, Amaryllis's self modification might almost be seen as a sort of reclaiming of agency from the dungeon master who shaped her for such a specific purpose. (Much as we, in real life, might modify ourselves away from the purposes which evolution shaped us towards, but with each modification we risk potentially losing purposes that were important to us as well)
u/CouteauBleu [+8] We are the Empire. (a day later)
I bet if we dig it turns out Fenn is bisexual and attracted to Amaryllis too
I'm... gonna say "wishful thinking".
u/Rorschach_Roadkill [+58] (an hour later)
I completely agree with Mary here, to the point where I got pretty mad at Joon during the dinner scene. His ideas of what is and what isn't an inviolable part of one's self seem completely arbitrary - the amount of tinkering this boy has done with his own soul is far, far beyond what she did here. The fact that he had all day to think about this and his conclusion was some flimsy thing about how depression is chemicals and crushes are essential brain patterns is pretty infuriating. And making her go back to that painful infatuation while her dinner got cold just so she could respond emotionally to his emotional arguments seemed like a real dick move (even if she was the one who offered it). But, at the end of the day it really felt like he came through, and even if he doesn't entirely agree with her decision he's realizing it's her soul to do with as she pleases. Here's to a long, fruitful and 100% platonic friendship.
I think he kind of serves as a reader avatar here? I've been surprised at how many people ship Joon and Mary, and it makes sense that we get this chapter. Both a) having the tension fade away and b) keep dangling it over both their heads forever would feel kind of cheap, and you found a really interesting, in-universe logical way to do neither, and got a hell of a bottle episode out of it.
Also, I'm glad you put on Holy Grail at the end there. For a hot second I was worried you'd make them watch Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind lol
u/Anderkent [+29] (2 hours later)
And making her go back to that painful infatuation while her dinner got cold just so she could respond emotionally to his emotional arguments seemed like a real dick move (even if she was the one who offered it)
I mean the dinner getting cold is really not very relevant here? And I think it's totally reasonable to trust the pre-modification version of a person more than the post-modification version one about the value of this particular modification.
His ideas of what is and what isn't an inviolable part of one's self seem completely arbitrary - the amount of tinkering this boy has done with his own soul is far, far beyond what she did here.
Well, the only ones that had to do with his values were undoing the compulsions planted by Fallatehr, and managing the level up importance, right? Of which I think the second is just as bad as what Amaryllis does here.
But playing around with skills and stats is not on the same scale.
u/Fresh_C [+7] (a day later)
It's an interesting argument to say that the Level Up modifaction is the same as modifying one's feeling of attraction/infatuation with someone.
In some senses the Level Up was functioning similar to a drug. Giving him a sense of euphoria beyond that which he could ever hope to regularly experience, and it seemed to be getting stronger and stronger each time.
It's the game directly messing with his mind in a way that would not have occurred naturally. Honestly, putting a game mechanic like that in was a really messed up thing for the DM to do, which I can only assume was done to keep motivating Joon to reach new heights, instead of becoming complacent.
In contrast, Mary is modifying her feelings for Joon which is something that, if the DM is to be believed, are a natural result of the time they spent together and who she is as a person.
No one dumped endorphins into her head everytime she saw Joon so that she'd fall in love with him. It's no more a part of the game interface than any of the rest of Aerb is.
So I'd think that the modifications are definitely different. Though I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it's a case of Personality Death for Mary to modify herself in this way.
I think that in the same way that we wouldn't give someone drugs for depression if their problems were manageable in some other way, it doesn't make sense for Mary to modify her soul just because it's convenient. It sets a bad precedent for teaching yourself how to solve your social/emotional problems, IMO.
She took what should have been a last resort and made it her solution.
u/Anderkent [+4] (2 days later)
In some senses the Level Up was functioning similar to a drug. Giving him a sense of euphoria beyond that which he could ever hope to regularly experience, and it seemed to be getting stronger and stronger each time.
Isn't that what love also does to brains?
It's the game directly messing with his mind in a way that would not have occurred naturally. Honestly, putting a game mechanic like that in was a really messed up thing for the DM to do, which I can only assume was done to keep motivating Joon to reach new heights, instead of becoming complacent.
This is a different reading that I have, and I wonder if a closer reread could clarify. It was not my intention that the obsession with levelling up was artificially injected into Juniper; rather that he was the kind of person who, given a world with level ups, would purchase level ups with all his focus.
Perhaps you're right and it was the pavlovian kind of conditioning due to how good levelling up felt that made it important to him, but it was my impression that even very early on - before he could get addicted to the feeling of leveling up - Joon was close to obsessed with getting more powerful.
I think that in the same way that we wouldn't give someone drugs for depression if their problems were manageable in some other way
Um, we totally would. We do! I personally was on antidepressants for ~6 months even though all my 'real' problems were 'manageable' - i.e. I didn't lose my job, or whatever. Taking antidepressants because it's convenient is totally a thing.
u/Fresh_C [+3] (2 days later)
Interesting. I thought the level ups being addicting was pretty clearly meant to be a Pavlovian response. Especially since Joon makes comments about how he thinks his judgement may be clouded by the desire to level up, rather than doing the optimal thing. Also the way Joon describes his game sessions, makes me think that he's not a person who's overly concerned about game mechanics by nature. He uses the mechanics of the game to drive the setting/story, and only cares about keeping the mechanics from being easily abused or uninteresting. I get that he does care about Leveling up because it's very much tied up into his ability to gain power and thus stay alive. But I think without the Euphoric side effects of leveling up, Joon's values wouldn't even say "Level Up" They would say something like "Power" or "Safety" or "Agency"... though of course, that's just my personal reading of things.
You're right we do give people drugs a little bit easier than my comment made it out to seem. But what I meant is that we generally give drugs when things like behavioral therapy alone aren't likely to work. Though I'm aware that professionals have different opinions about what point giving someone drugs to treat a problem is better, so... probably not the best argument on my part. And also it was probably a dumb analogy to compare depression to unrequited love.
I think a better way to put it is that physically there's nothing wrong with Mary. Being in love is not a condition that any psychiatrist would treat. It's not a chemical imbalance making it so she can't love anyone else, or can't live her life more or less normally. It also doesn't seem to be an obsessive thing that's causing her to engage in unhealthy or immoral actions. It's just inconvenient and emotionally painful to a degree.
And it's probably made worse by the fact that Joon is one of her only friends and she spends virtually all of her time with him. Those are the extenuating circumstances that probably need to be solved. Ideally she should be encouraged to find more social outlets not related to him, rather than do something drastic like modify her soul... but I also understand that's not likely to happen either.
The problem with modifying your soul as an answer to a situation like this, is that it's something that can be done to "fix" all her social issues. Say she and Grak later get in a fight and it ruins the team dynamic... well then she can just modify her values so that she no longer cares about the outcome of that fight.
I guess, the question is where do you draw the line? At what point does making changes to yourself for your own convenience make you "not yourself". I personally think that for the sake of being safe, you should draw that line at the point where you're only willing to change unasked for outside influences. With the only exceptions being when not making a change to yourself would cause severe drops in quality of life that cannot be mitigated in a less drastic way.
u/Anderkent [+2] (2 days later)
You make some pretty good points but I'm afraid I can't really engage any more due to time constraints. I guess we have to wait and see if this ends badly :P
u/Rorschach_Roadkill [+12] (2 hours later)
No, the dinner thing was definitely just me being mad at him and finding another reason to be more mad at him lol.
I found the skill-level-fudging that brought him to the DM truly terrifying, moreso than anything else he's done, but I guess that was different. What I really feared then was reality unrecoverably glitching out because that happens when you find loopholes in games that give you higher skill levels than should be possible. He used the same tool, but the risk was a completely different one. So you're right, he's done nothing worse than the level-up fix.
u/Anderkent [+10] (2 hours later)
Right, from a mechanics pov there are risks to fudging with the game internals, agreed. But they're more like 'if you fuck up everyone will be dead' kind of traditional risk; whereas value self-modification is more like 'this makes me really nervious because who the fuck understands identity anyway' :P
u/i6i [+20] (2 hours later)
b) keep dangling it over both their heads forever
Yeah this is still happening. She didn't remove her crush on Joon she used magic to temporarily(!) surpress(!!) all love because her first case of it turned out disappointing. If Joons level up addiction and questionable methods of dealing with were a ticking time bomb before then this is a bottle labled "Mary's drama: in case of emergency break glass" sitting on the DMs shelf. Actually confronting the shippers in the audience would have involved her getting with someone else and this is doing the opposite MaryxAnybodyOtherThanJoon is getting nixed harder.
u/Anderkent [+14] (2 hours later)
temporarily(!) surpress(!!) all love because her first case of it turned out disappointing
I don't think that's the case:
“It took a deep dive into the social aspect of the soul, but I was eventually able find the lever for romantic and sexual attraction. All I did was reduce them both down to nothing. I’m fairly sure that it’s confined just to you, and it’s entirely reversible.”
I think the idea here is that Mary was asexual-except-for-Joon-because-ROB already, so there weren't any sexual attraction for other people that could have been supressed
u/i6i [+8] (3 hours later)
We know squat about how effective what they're doing is admittedly but she wasn't exclusively attracted to Joon. Joon was just the only man she was attracted to.
u/Anderkent [+5] (3 hours later)
Oh right, I misremembered the asexual/lesbian conversation. Still, I would think the levers for attraction to men and attraction to women shouldn't be that hard to separate? Meh, dunno. For this I'll just trust what she's saying.
u/i6i [+7] (7 hours later)
Still, I would think the levers for attraction to men and attraction to women shouldn't be that hard to separate?
You remember how Fallthear's minions were enslaved by the need to get regularly modified to avoid being consumed by their bodies original personality?
That but with any potential future relationships.
u/jaghataikhan [+5] Primarch of the White Scars (a day later)
That's a really good parallel that never would have occurred to me - so a corollary is that she's going to become psychologically addicted to Joon's close-by presence so she can self-modify to her hearts' content, risking a secondary obsession/addiction ironically born of her original impulse to reduce her dependency on him?
u/sicutumbo [+20] (5 hours later)
Part of the reason that he didn't like it, a reason he didn't mention, is that she referred to the change as "fixing herself". Not solving a problem by removing emotions that could never go fulfilled, or removing a source of interpersonal tension, she refers to her attraction to him as something wrong.
“You’re right that I came to the conversation prepared. I thought about what you might say, while I was working on fixing myself, and after, when I was waiting to broach the subject.
If someone referred to their attraction to me as something wrong about themselves, something that is a problem in and of itself rather than something that leads to other problems, I would be rather insulted. I'm honestly not sure I could helpfully articulate how insulted I would be, because I'm not sure I can conjure up the impact that that scenario would have on me.
u/CouteauBleu [+24] We are the Empire. (6 hours later)
is that she referred to the change as "fixing herself"
Yeah, the repeated emphasis on "fixing" and being "broken" feels concerning; this is probably something the groups will have to address at some point, especially if Mary is going to be liberal with the self-modification.
(although I don't think she'd do anything really crazy without adequate preparation; she's usually pretty reasonable with this stuff)
If someone referred to their attraction to me as something wrong about themselves, something that is a problem in and of itself rather than something that leads to other problems, I would be rather insulted.
Oh yeah, I'm 100% team self-mod, but ouch. Mary was brutal in this chapter.
I think this is similar to the time Mary made herself more loyal to reach level 10, or when Joon told Fenn things while under unicorn blood and her loyalty increased. Superpowers aside, it can be very distressing to have people visibly and strongly change how they think about you, in a way you have no input over.
(or the time Mary kissed Joon under unicorn blood; or the time Mary made herself fall in love with Joon because she thought she wouldn't be able to stay with him once he got powerful unless he married her; she does have issues)
u/sicutumbo [+13] (10 hours later)
I think this is similar to the time Mary made herself more loyal to reach level 10, or when Joon told Fenn things while under unicorn blood and her loyalty increased. Superpowers aside, it can be very distressing to have people visibly and strongly change how they think about you, in a way you have no input over.
Oh, speaking of that, this is fairly direct evidence that loyalty only ever goes up. Amaryllis decreases her attraction to June to nothing, when she had legitimate problems with sleeping due to her attraction to him and the lack of reciprocacy, and her loyalty doesn't change from the 20 it was already at. If it had gone down, she wouldn't be able to use symbiosis.
This isn't nearly as bad as June thought it would be, because her non-game-interface loyalty did go down. So the loyalty meter doesn't prevent decreases in actual loyalty.
Well, I guess you could say that romantic attraction isn't related to what the game considers loyalty, but that seems really implausible to me. From "I have problems sleeping because I'm thinking about you" to "The thought of attraction to you is lunacy" causes zero decrease in loyalty? It would be a horrible label if that was the case.
u/Noumero [+8] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (13 hours later)
Actually, we got that confirmation a while ago. Remember that time hers and Grak's values were overwritten by Fallather? I bet it involved directly decreasing how much they value other party members, and yet their "Loyalty" didn't decrease.
u/sicutumbo [+7] (13 hours later)
I thought that he had simply made them value himself so much that it overshadowed everyone else? We got Amaryllis' perspective during it, and she didn't mention that she liked Joon less, just that she was absolutely devoted to Falatehr. Joon said initially that he didn't fully trust the loyalty meter because he didn't know if that person would be more loyal to something else, even if they had very high loyalty to him personally.
u/The_Flying_Stoat [+2] (a day later)
Maybe Loyalty looks not at the current state of the soul, but rather the underlying state that the soul reverts to? That seems like something that the game layer would do.
u/AurelianoTampa [+10] (6 hours later)
I get what you're saying, but she didn't remove ALL emotions toward Juniper. Her feeling things for him wasn't the problem - it was specifically the romantic feelings and sexual attraction that she reduced to nil. At the end of the chapter she still likes spending time with him, but now it's just as friends.
Anyone who's ever had a friendship with someone end because unrequited romantic love developed probably knows exactly how crappy that feels - no matter if they were the one who wanted to stay friends or the one who wanted to become more than friends.
u/sicutumbo [+14] (7 hours later)
I'm not saying she was wrong, but at the very least she could have expressed herself better. Look at this quote:
Amaryllis nodded. “I wanted you to want me too,” said Amaryllis. “I’m trying to keep that in mind, because right now it feels like idiocy or lunacy or both.”
It doesn't say "I no longer feel attracted to you even though you do have attractive traits." or anything similar. She's saying that feeling attracted to June feels like idiocy or lunacy. That removing her attraction to him felt like fixing herself, at least in her present state of mind. She may not be expressing herself correctly, or maybe I'm missinterpreting, but what she is saying sounds deeply insulting.
I do actually think that what she did was the correct thing to do, although I haven't had time to give it a ton of thought at this point, but that's separate from the fact that she is either being unintentionally insulting or that she now has some clear negative thoughts about June that she is expressing in a rather hurtful way.
u/jaghataikhan [+6] Primarch of the White Scars (a day later)
The interesting thing that somebody pointed out is that Joon's SOC insights are super-charged by merely cribbing off half of Mary's proficiencies in that area - it's interesting to think with fully 2x this level of social insight as her baseline she still says something this hurtful
u/Izeinwinter [+8] (15 hours later)
I think the problem is that Amaryllis was put together with no particular regard for psychological plausibility.
Single-target sexuality is a very weird trait for someone to have. Strict monogamy? Sure, finding staying faithful approximately as challenging as not floating into the sky is a common trait.
Asexuality is not particularly rare, either. But "This person, and only this person" without a romantic history to hang that on?
That was a poor match to the rest of the pattern of who Amaryllis is. And turning it off probably does feel like a fix, subjectively - it is obviously not the only valid fix, just giving herself a more normal libido would likely work just as well, but I do not think that would occur to her as an option on her own recognizance.
u/ZeCatox [+3] (6 hours later)
The problem was not "being attracted to June", it was "being attracted to June who expressed very clearly that he doesn't want to reciprocate"
" I think I love you
- oh, I'm sorry but that won't be possible...
- you're sure ? I mean we could-
- No. Really. No. Just no. Not an option.
- oh... well, I guess I'll try to stop loving you then...
- Well, no. You can't do that either.
- eh ? Why ?
- Because I would feel hurt.
- WHAT ?! "
I don't think June is that much messed up...
u/sicutumbo [+8] (7 hours later)
I don't actually think that Amaryllis was wrong to do what she did. She seems to have made a well thought out decision that will be ultimately beneficial. She just sounded unintentionally, casually cruel while explaining what she did, which I think is part of the reason June reacted as he did.
u/nohat [+2] (3 days later)
I thought that was really well done characterization wise, particularly the last few lines. Joon is basically a romantic, and thinks that love should mean something. However he implied that Amaryllis being attracted to him was a core part of her being (whether this was entirely unmeant, or a bit of a freudian slip on his part is unclear). This is both really insulting and possibly true. So Amaryllis was understandably disgusted, but Joon didn't understand what he implied. Personally I think Amaryllis can do better than Joon, but it would have to be someone already introduced at this point. Grak seems like a no nonsense (ungendered) fellow...
u/JustLookingToHelp [+1] (7 days later)
I think Joon would veto that one for being too on the nose.
u/Weebcluse [+17] (15 hours later)
Well, looks like the main topic of this chapter is being thoroughly discussed.
Something I though was interesting is that Joon seems to be preparing to lose the Anyblade when he was practicing his blood magic. Joon can probably change the shape of a blood blade on the fly with enough practice and if he can become blade-bound to his own blood then he would have no need for the Anyblade.
The chances that the house is going to eat the Anyblade is increasing.
u/sicutumbo [+9] (18 hours later)
His stated reasons make sense. Controlling blood outside his body is a normal skill for blood mages, so it makes sense for him to learn it when he has limited options for learning new skills in the room. It's shown on screen so that it doesn't come from nowhere when he uses the ability later.
Although it does also make sense for him to prepare for the loss of Anyblade. If they get to choose which entads to loose with Zona having some influence on which, Anyblade offers Zona an ability that she wants, and isn't so useful for the group that they should force the issue. Losing Sable, the teleportation key, or the backpack would be devastating, but Anyblade is merely very useful. It isn't hugely better than whatever ordinary blade it mimics. It's simply very versatile and stealthy. Joon wouldn't be hugely hampered in a fight if he had to use a normal sword, and if he can use his blood as a weapon he's only barely affected.
I do wonder if they'll be able to give Zona the entads that they got from Larkspur, the ones they can't use. That would be convenient.
u/rubix314159265 [+3] (6 days later)
Probably, but they have a lot more entads than we know. There was an odd scythe from the first haul that they could never identify, there is all the equipment that Mary's cousin had when they killed him that isn't invested in them, thus unuseable. Some of the equipment used by team Blackheart sounded like entads, and is (by current party level standards) easily aquired.
House agreed to take personal attachment into account, and the effect does not need to be strong in the entad for her to exploit it in the way she wants. The party could be better off here than we are expecting.
u/monkyyy0 [+28] (45 minutes later)
5 years and soul fuckery.
She's going to be fucked in the head. Soul editing children to cry less may be a thing.
u/sparkc [+35] (an hour later)
I feel very much like Joon about what Amaryliss did: deeply uncomfortable, but without being able to articulate a strong argument against it, which leads me to question how valid my viewpoint is.
u/Alphanos [+19] The Bright Powers (8 hours later)
I feel very much like Joon about what Amaryliss did: deeply uncomfortable, but without being able to articulate a strong argument against it, which leads me to question how valid my viewpoint is.
There are a couple of sides to this disagreement. Firstly, at the end when Amaryllis looks disgusted at Juniper calling that modified part of her "essential", I don't think she was disgusted at his feelings. Rather this whole issue is a much more fundamental and deeply existential question for Amaryllis. As best she understands, she was literally designed and created as a being for the purpose of Juniper's benefit. I would imagine that such a thing feels rather dehumanizing. So a big part of her unstated reasoning is that she is trying to prove she is not a "fake" person - that she has valuable independent personality wholly apart from her association with Juniper.
Regarding Juniper's discomfort, there are several aspects to this. Aside from the emotional portions that he admits to, one question that should be raised is that of side effects. Do either of them have enough expertise or training in soul magic to know whether changing something hidden deep inside one area could have unknown linked effects elsewhere in the soul where they are not looking? Potentially even more so if this is something that Amaryllis intends to repeat every day. If some other peripherally related value is being unknowingly increased or decreased each time she edits her feelings about Juniper, but that other related value springs back at a different (slower!) rate than the main item she is editing, then she could accidentally cause severe changes to her personality. Since she is passing dilated time rapidly in relative isolation, this wouldn't even be easily noticed by anyone. She could step out of the time chamber at the end a fundamentally very different person without her having had the intention of this happening.
There is also a more insidious and likely more severe risk. Self-editing and transhumanism inevitably presents dangers of slippery slopes. To present just one possible example among multitudes, Amaryllis has set a precedent here where she found that editing what she cares about is a reasonable solution to solve certain problems and make their lives easier. Suppose that in the future after some major battle, she finds herself having nightmares about the violence. So she edits her soul to solve that problem, and in the process ends up slightly decreasing her general concern and care for strangers' lives. This is a potentially self-perpetuating cycle, where caring less about others' lives would make her less reluctant to do so again if it would seem beneficial to do so. In essence, these sorts of uses of soul magic run the risk of causing unexpected runaway changes in fundamental goals and values. It could result in monstrous morality changes like Fallatehr in the less extreme cases. In the more extreme cases, it could result in something so alien to other humans as to be closer to a rogue AI, especially given her thoughts on how to exploit various exclusion zones. I suspect that these sorts of dangers of soul magic are why there are now so many laws about it.
u/None [+5] (a day later)
I suspect that these sorts of dangers of soul magic are why there are now so many laws about it.
Uh. I think those laws have more to do with soul magic's power to physically and mentally reconfigure other people to your preferences with a touch.
u/Alphanos [+3] The Bright Powers (a day later)
Oh, yes, sorry, I was unclear. I was saying there is a hidden danger of soul magic that even people who would normally find the thought of doing that abhorrent and would never do that could end up doing it anyway. Since they could end up accidentally warping their morals in unanticipated ways.
u/thrawnca [+17] Carbon-based biped (3 hours later)
I'm willing to grant Amaryllis' claim that she has the right to do this to her own soul.
However, she named some pharmaceuticals as a comparison. Those drugs have, we hope, been thoroughly tested, their benefits and limitations and side effects explored and documented in a large number of cases. Whereas soul modification...well, they're learning as they go along. Kind of a different risk profile there.
u/Green0Photon [+4] Student in Cyoria, Minmay, and Ranvar (9 hours later)
May also isn't a licensed professional with training to write prescriptions for drugs, metaphorical or otherwise.
u/PM_ME_OS_DESIGN [+3] (a day later)
Also, there are rules about doctors self-medicating.
u/nytelios [+5] (16 hours later)
I think part of it is explained in the thread above: the risks that come with transhumanism and the dread of witnessing such a sudden change ("death") of self.
Considering what exactly bothers me...speaking for myself, it's probably the witnessing that causes the apprehension. For Amaryllis, she thought the decision through and it was simply the instant path to a change that she wanted. I suspect most of us, if we had the chance to rid ourselves of the negative emotions accompanying stressful experiences (break-ups, death of family), wouldn't bat an eye if it would get us over the anguish. But to an invested, outside observer (family/friends or readers), witnessing that sudden of a change is like whiplash to our internal models of that person's identity. The change might be seamless for the individual, but not everyone else.
u/icesharkk [+4] (5 hours later)
I'm uncomfortable but not because of the emotional issue Joon points out. I feel like this impermanent solution is going to be a time bomb triggered at dm discretion
u/Anderkent [+6] (2 hours later)
Meh, it reduces to the belief that there are parts of ourselves that one should not have conscious control of. There's a couple parts to it, but in particular it's about trustworthiness of your emotions.
Mutual risk of heartbreak should a relationship end is what aligns your incentives together; both parties are invested into the relationship because they would both suffer should it end, loss aversion handles the rest. If one party could at a moments notice choose to stop being in love, well then their love stops being a meaningful signal.
u/CouteauBleu [+6] We are the Empire. (3 hours later)
Leaving physical intimacy aside, I think there's a bit more to love than the M.A.D. contract you're describing; like knowing that someone has your back, emotional intimacy, and a truckload of brain chemicals.
Though I guess all three could be reproduced ex-nihilo with essentialism? Mhh.
u/Anderkent [+2] (3 hours later)
Right, obviously my description is not complete. However, building that kind of trust takes time and requires a certain degree of bootstrapping. If you start from the position of being mutually in love, it's much easier to build emotional intimacy and the trust that someone has your back - you know they have some investment into your wellbeing straight away, because of the heartbreak that is on stake for them, so you can become more vulnerable earlier, so you can see they're not taking advantage of your vulnerability, so you have more trust, etc. etc.
You can totally become intimate and trust someone who doesn't love you, after all. But it seems easier if they do.
u/PM_ME_OS_DESIGN [+1] (a day later)
Though I guess all three could be reproduced ex-nihilo with essentialism? Mhh.
Sounds like arranged marriages should be far more viable in a place where soul magic is acceptable, like the second empire.
u/paradoxinclination [+3] (9 hours later)
Personally, my view is that the only safe amount of self-modification is zero. The sure-fire way to remain yourself and not to be replaced by a similar but fundamentally different person is to only change your opinions naturally.
u/rabotat [+3] (18 hours later)
What is naturally? Is reading books, taking depression medication or having structured therapy with medical professionals natural?
u/monkyyy0 [+3] (an hour later)
I'm only mildly uncomfortable, and I'm quite willing to declare myself as correct; trust your gut.
u/Lightwavers [+3] * s̮̹̃rͭ͆̄͊̓̍ͪ͝e̮̹̜͈ͫ̓̀̋̂v̥̭̻̖̗͕̓ͫ̎ͦa̵͇ͥ͆ͣ͐w̞͎̩̻̮̏̆̈́̅͂t͕̝̼͒̂͗͂h̋̿* (3 hours later)
Well I'm quite willing to declare you incorrect. :P
u/monkyyy0 [+6] (3 hours later)
There is only one way to settle this; throws down a glove
u/Anderkent [+15] (3 hours later)
By falling mutually in love and then one of you modifying themselves out of it?
u/xachariah [+13] (an hour later)
Plan A is already to soul-edit the child so it's soul thinks it's an adult, then to heal it into growing into one.
Plan C is to edit the child to cry less.
Plan B is to edit yourself so you don't mind the crying.
u/Anderkent [+6] (2 hours later)
B is worse than C, if you think that a child crying and not getting any attention for it can possibly cause suffering to the child.
u/CouteauBleu [+25] We are the Empire. (3 hours later)
You're not thinking transhumanist enough. Plan B is to edit yourself so that you care for the child when she cries, but don't feel emotionally drained because of it.
[INSERT SPECULATIVE REMARK ABOUT POTENTIAL SIDE EFFECTS ON PSYCHOLOGICAL MAKEUP HERE]
u/Anderkent [+2] (3 hours later)
I like that plan better, but at that point it's not that you don't mind the crying, it's that you have more energy to resolve the causes of crying :P
u/LeifCarrotson [+3] (11 hours later)
As the parent of a toddler, you realize pretty quickly that (1) crying is very, very effective at getting a response, and (2) the kid knows it and will abuse it.
Grandparents are great for reassuring that the kid is safe, fed, clean, comfortable, and loved, and that's everything they need - so it's OK to just let them cry sometimes.
u/RMcD94 [+13] (5 hours later)
Great story.
So where does she stop? I can't see her not lowering everything that she thinks is an inefficient bias
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+13] Fruit flies like a banana (a minute later)
Typos here, please.
(Posting super late at night, so probably won't get to them until late tomorrow. I really appreciate all the typo corrections I get for every chapter.)
u/rubix314159265 [+7] (18 hours later)
It feels wrong to call this a typo, but I don't know where else to put it.
When Grak came out of the chamber, did he have a prosthetic arm? It seems small enough to be made by the bag, or crafted by it's components, and also something that amyrallis would have thought of in her time in the chamber.
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+4] Fruit flies like a banana (19 hours later)
Hrm. You're right, let me do a little bit of research and I'll probably edit something in.
u/Rorschach_Roadkill [+3] (24 minutes later)
That’s certainly the less horrifying version of how the Second Empire would have come to that know that.
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+2] Fruit flies like a banana (10 hours later)
Fixed, thanks.
u/SvalbardCaretaker [+1] Mouse Army (55 minutes later)
She sat in the lotus position on top of [a] pillow
served as the primary source of power generation [on] through Aerb
- either "on Aerb" or "troughout Aerb"
I used a bone to seal closed the wound
- just "seal the wound" or "close the wound"
I do have things that I need
edto do.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)
just "seal the wound"
I'd probably suggest "to seal the wound closed".
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+2] Fruit flies like a banana (10 hours later)
Fixed those, thanks!
u/Noumero [+1] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (an hour later)
If skill level translates directly to skill[,] you couldn't
Missing comma, I think.
its an exciting time to learn
* its -> it's
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (10 hours later)
Fixed those, thanks!
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (3 hours later)
on top of pillow/on top of a pillow
block out outside stimulus/block out outside stimuli
giving me free reign/giving me free rein
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+2] Fruit flies like a banana (10 hours later)
Fixed thanks. I think that probably marks the 20th time I've made the rein/reign error; I know the rule, but it doesn't stick. Thanks for catching it.
u/CopperZirconium [+1] (8 hours later)
It looks like breakfast and lunch conversations switched meal order at some point.
- Joon makes sandwiches for lunch, Amaryllis asks about Joon getting over Tiff.
- time skip
- Amaryllis makes English breakfast, tells Joon she edited. Joon is eating bacon.
- Amaryllis says she is done with lunch.
- Joon doesn't eat the rest of his sandwich
- time skip
- dinner later that day
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (10 hours later)
Fixed, not really sure how/why I got that confused, nor how I failed to catch it.
u/Shakunato [+1] (14 hours later)
it was this second loss coming one the heels of the first one
Should be "on the heels"
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (16 hours later)
Fixed, thanks.
u/nytelios [+1] (16 hours later)
I was eventually able (to) find the lever for romantic and sexual attraction
waiting for her to speak her
peacepiece.
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+1] Fruit flies like a banana (16 hours later)
Fixed those, thanks!
u/rubix314159265 [+1] (3 days later)
I've just started a reread, and found this in chapter 6.
I slung the rifle over my shoulder and grabbed reached into the pouch, grabbing two of the small leather balls that each contained a bomb.
It should be either grabbed or reached, or if you are verb mashing to describe the motion, grab-reached.
u/Green0Photon [+11] Student in Cyoria, Minmay, and Ranvar (9 hours later)
I want to cry because of what happened in this chapter.
It's sad and I don't know the solution. This annoys me.
:(
Good writing though.
I'm pretty sure both of them are making mistakes. Also, Juniper should've said he also had the fantasy.
I'm curious though, if that's the stereotypical male fantasy on what a woman feels, what's the typical female fantasy?
u/alexanderwales [+22] Time flies like an arrow (10 hours later)
I'm curious though, if that's the stereotypical male fantasy on what a woman feels, what's the typical female fantasy?
The extremely stereotypical female fantasy is of a "bad boy" archetype with nigh uncontrollable lust who gets gradually transformed into a loving, caring, emotionally close partner. He's handsome, rich, probably has some kind of trauma in his past, and the sex fantasy is more about the emotional bond and overcoming obstacles than it strictly is about sex (though there's still lots of sex). To the extent the man is standoffish, it's because he's working so hard to restrain his incredible passion (see: Twilight, but also tons of other examples).
(There's a really helpful model of human sexuality that divides it into "responsive" and "spontaneous" sexuality, where some people because aroused in response to sufficient stimulus, and some people just become aroused for no real reason (and then seek out stimulus). For maybe sociocultural and maybe biological reasons, responsive sexuality is more common in women, and spontaneous sexuality is more common in men, and I think the stereotypical fantasies somewhat reflect that.)
But there are lots of different traditional female fantasies, just like there are lots of traditional male fantasies, and a lot of people don't respond to the stereotypes for their gender. As one somewhat common example, a fair number of women get off on "gay conversion" fantasies, i.e. stories where a woman seduces a gay man and makes him realize that actually, he really does desire a woman after all (note: probably don't actually try this).
u/Mystrl [+18] (14 hours later)
It's sad and I don't know the solution.
Have you tried editing your soul so you're not sad anymore?
u/MarkArrows [+3] (a day later)
It's sad and I don't know the solution. This annoys me.
Duplicate Joon?
He already established he might be a construct of the original Joon, who's probably sitting depressed in some high school attending class like usual. Also soul fucking is a thing. We got introduced to it with an elf who kept a gang of themselves.
u/Noumero [+5] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (10 hours later)
It's sad and I don't know the solution
Write a fanfiction...?
u/Green0Photon [+2] Student in Cyoria, Minmay, and Ranvar (10 hours later)
No, that's what I'd do if I knew a possible solution (or a slightly implausible one).
Since you mentioned it, has anybody written fanfic for this yet? As the author said, it did just hit 500k words.
u/Noumero [+14] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (10 hours later)
a possible solution
An AU where the DM nudged Juniper towards Amaryllis more than towards Fenn? A divergence fanfiction where Fenn dies in Chapter 51? A crackfic where Valencia uses her eldritch demon powers to orchestrate a Fenn x Juniper x Amaryllis OT3?
Actually, I'm not sure the problem you want to solve is the problem I'm thinking of. For all I know you're sad because they decided to watch Monty Python and the Holy Grail instead of Pulp Fiction. Or because Amaryllis' meal got cold while she was busy messing with the fundamental nature of her very soul. In which case... Hmm, I admittedly also struggle to come up with sufficiently entertaining ideas for fix-fics aimed at those issues.
has anybody written fanfic for this yet?
Not as far as I know.
u/PanickedApricott [+5] (12 hours later)
For all I know you're sad because they decided to watch Monty Python and the Holy Grail instead of Pulp Fiction. Or because Amaryllis' meal got cold while she was busy messing with the fundamental nature of her very soul
Someone writing a a fan fiction for these reasons is a mildly entertaining concept.
u/Noumero [+3] Self-Appointed Court Statistician (13 hours later)
Well, I know that I was really bothered by Amaryllis' meal getting cold. She spent time and effort cooking it for herself, was planning to enjoy it, and then it ended up going to waste for a minor concession in a short argument that didn't reveal any new information and ended in an anticlimatic victory for her?
It's such a misfortune. A shoot-the-shaggy-dog story in meal form, no less.
u/PanickedApricott [+10] (17 hours later)
“Juniper, you’re one of my closest -- my only friends, but whatever there is between us, it’s not essential. I elect not to let it define me.”
These are the last words of my favorite character in WtC. Suicide by Soul fuckery. It sucks that she was suffering this much.
long live Amarylis v1.1
u/None [+10] (17 minutes later)
You posted this just as I woke up. Thank you for making my day, the chapter is amazing.
u/LupoCani [+6] (an hour later)
Good Timing Thread:
I got it just as I woke up, having finally gotten around to reading the last four characters the previous night, which were the first chapters posted since I first caught up. Seconded, thank you.
u/CouteauBleu [+10] We are the Empire. (6 hours later)
... Wait a minute. Juniper... characters who use their mental powers to postpone their psychological problems... a world that has a large amount of magic systems, but some of these systems disappear over time for being too powerful...
You wouldn't be writing a prequel for The Dark Wizard of Donkerke, would you?
(okay, probably not because the tech levels don't match)
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+11] Fruit flies like a banana (10 hours later)
I was thinking about the parallels with Rowan when I was writing this chapter, and hope that I don't repeat myself too much in terms of mechanics/themes/etc.
(Also, I weirdly couldn't remember Rowan's name for the better part of an hour. He's one of the three main characters in a novel I spent four months or so writing, and his name appears more than six hundred times, but I somehow managed to forget it.)
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (19 hours later)
I, for one, started hearing internal ominous music as soon as I realized what she'd done, thanks to having read The Trials and Tribulations of Rowan.
u/CouteauBleu [+1] We are the Empire. (a day later)
Meh, she'll be fine as long as she sticks to reversible stuff and not, say, carving out her happiest memories and those of other people.
u/DaystarEld [+3] Pokémon Professor (a day later)
Right, but even temporary changes can cascade. All she has to do is lower a value that she thinks is okay to lower, which then might make her lower another value that her new, altered self believes is okay to lower, and on and on until she's changed herself beyond what her original self might have wanted.
Maybe there's a limit to what she can maintain if she's trying to keep too many values in their altered states at once, but she can still do some damage until the balls she juggles start to fall.
u/PresentCompanyExcl [+1] The Culture (3 days later)
What's "The Trials and Tribulations of Rowan"?, (I can't find it with a search).
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (4 days later)
Oh, sorry, that was just my rename of his other story, The Dark Wizard of Donkerk :)
u/PresentCompanyExcl [+1] The Culture (4 days later)
Ah, that makes sense!
u/WalterTFD [+10] (10 hours later)
I feel like they are sort of underselling how much soul modification can solve this problem (presumably Mary could have modified herself to not be bothered by her feelings rather than deleting them, if they for whatever reason value the pre-modification state of their souls), but this still works.
June can and should, of course, modify out his own irritation at her actions.
u/PanickedApricott [+9] (12 hours later)
I deeply empathize with Joon. My skin crawled. A punch to the gut. That something was lost that can't be regained. It feels like some kind of betrayal is going to happen soon.
Brilliant writing.
Interesting to know that by default she would fall in love with Joon.
Is the reverse true for Joon?
Amarylis is going to take steps to surpass Joon.
How long will it take Joon to get over Amarylis and will it affect him to her benefit?
u/rabotat [+8] (19 hours later)
something was lost that can't be regained.
She regained it litterally on a whim, to show him it wouldn't change her mind.
She wouldn't have done this if he wanted to be with her, why should she suffer before going over him, instead of just jumping there?
And finally, she was designed by a DM to be the way she is. Taking your own personality in your own hands is a right I feel we have in this world, where we basically 'occurred'. In a world where someone made me to specification it would be a point of pride and spite for me to take back control of myself.
u/CommonMisspellingBot [+1] (19 hours later)
Hey, rabotat, just a quick heads-up:
occured is actually spelled occurred. You can remember it by two cs, two rs.
Have a nice day!^^^^The ^^^^parent ^^^^commenter ^^^^can ^^^^reply ^^^^with ^^^^'delete' ^^^^to ^^^^delete ^^^^this ^^^^comment.
u/rabotat [+1] (19 hours later)
Thanks.
u/CouteauBleu [+16] We are the Empire. (3 hours later)
Called it (kind of).
This story is making me realize that transhumanist romance is a tragically under-exploited genre.
And for the record, the quality / time to produce ratio of this story is incredible. I wasn't expecting an update for weeks!
u/JusticeBeak [+5] (12 hours later)
I imagine nobody cares, but I kind of called something too
u/TheGuardianOne [+5] (9 hours later)
Why can't he have both?
... I'm joking.
I'm not familiar with the "harem" kind of fiction that some readers have mentioned previously, but I do like that everyone isn't just conveniently polyamorous (because most people in real life aren't). So this feels like a more realistic exploration, or a deconstruction, of this particular fantasy.
u/Izeinwinter [+13] (15 hours later)
... They could be. That is the hilarious thing. Sure, turning her desire for Juniper off is one solution, but they have write-access to their sexuality! They do not have to conveniently happen to be poly, they could choose to be so. Jealousy would obviously not stand up to self-editing.
Now, of course, that would not occur to either Juniper or Amaryllis, because they are too.. conventional? But Fenn might think of it.
u/rabotat [+5] (19 hours later)
Fenn would be deeply uncomfortable about sharing someone she loves with anyone.
Sure, you could change that as well, to give wish fulfillment to your AJF-ship fans, but it would go against Fenn's personality, which is pretty insecure and possesive (in a understandable and not bad way).
u/Sonderjye [+2] (6 hours later)
I really hope that polyamory eventually get introduced to the fiction.
u/serge_cell [+6] (an hour later)
you ended your courtship with her nine months before coming to Aerb?
Could be this Juniper is not original Juniper but his personality uploaded into his son.
u/WarningInsanityBelow [+3] (16 hours later)
So, does anyone want to speculate what cthulhuraejepsen's tag "Case 70" refers too? It looks like it is one of the codewords Joon and Mary agreed upon to convey information about Joon's companion screen without any non-party members being clued in, but what does it mean?
Assuming it is not just a throwaway reference, I don't think that they actually thought of 70 different cases, but maybe they have a system of combining different cases. In which case 70 would be case 0, for not a new companion, and case 7, which hasn't been mentioned yet. Possibly something slightly weird since it would be one of the later numbers used, maybe "non-companion entry" or "lost a party member".
u/nytelios [+11] (17 hours later)
It's a reference to Worm and the revelation that CRJ is actually alexanderwales.
u/WarningInsanityBelow [+2] (17 hours later)
Dammit this is what I get for not reading worm. Thank you.
u/FormerlySarsaparilla [+3] (a day later)
Great chapter! I see no problems with Amaryllis' solution. As we all know, casually resolving great big interpersonal problems by magically altering your own mind rather than having a moment of growth is absolutely 100% narratively safe.
u/adgnatum [+3] (2 days later)
How should we interpret the chapter title?
Something about the complexity and depth of human value? That doesn't seem like a very strong ringer.
u/derefr [+3] (3 days later)
I feel like Joon made a weaker-than-possible version of his argument at the end.
To me, the problem with what Amaryllis is doing, is that a kind self-reflects and builds new parts of itself out of existing parts. Most minds (other than, perhaps, people with psychoses) are coherent: a subset of the mind could be used to re-derive the rest of the mind. Lose your memories? Re-derive from your goal function + knowledge of physics (i.e. “guess what happened.”) Lose your goal function? Re-derive it by constraint-satisfying against your memories.
And, lose part of your goal function? Re-derive your instrumental goals from your terminal goals, or vice-versa.
That’s the reason the attraction preference keeps coming back: it’s coherent to the rest of Amaryllis’s preferences for it to be there. Even removing the preference itself, all the surrounding preferences inevitably lead to its existence. To truly remove it permanently, you’d need to change a much larger part of Mary’s mind than just that one node. You might need to change the whole thing, even. Otherwise, it would just come back.
(As it happens, this is also why Grak was under Fallatehr‘s geas, even without appearing to be: the direct preference node for wanting to help Fallatehr wasn’t there, but everything around it essentially implied that preference without it being reified anywhere. That was why it took Joon so much effort to set things right: Grak truly had been made into an almost entirely different person, and Joon probably did need to re-derive his preferences from his memories or somesuch, since he didn’t have the handy backup power he got soon after.)
u/CouteauBleu [+1] We are the Empire. (5 days later)
(As it happens, this is also why Grak was under Fallatehr‘s geas, even without appearing to be: the direct preference node for wanting to help Fallatehr wasn’t there, but everything around it essentially implied that preference without it being reified anywhere. That was why it took Joon so much effort to set things right: Grak truly had been made into an almost entirely different person, and Joon probably did need to re-derive his preferences from his memories or somesuch, since he didn’t have the handy backup power he got soon after.)
Nope; Grak's mind-control was temporary. The reason Joon couldn't detect it or easily revert it was that they weren't soul-bonded yet.
u/derefr [+1] (8 days later)
Ah, sorry, I was forgetting the situation in that chapter—replace "Grak" with "Amaryllis" in the above and it'll make sense. She was the one who was altered in a subtle way that Joon didn't cotton onto until too late. (Thus the comment in this chapter about Joon's deep knowledge of her soul having been unavoidable.)
u/CouteauBleu [+1] We are the Empire. (8 days later)
Still nope.
Joon could have detected Fallatehr‘s geas. Fallatehr specifically arranged for him to be arrested and have to level down his essentialism. By the time he leveled it backed up, Fallatehr had restored Mary's priorities to normal, so Joon wasn't able to detect that anything was wrong.
You should probably read that arc again with clarity :P It's more fun when you know the answers to the questions they're speculating about.
u/MaddoScientisto [+5] (5 hours later)
I'm with Amaryllis on this, I have so many people I got feelings for but with which I'll never have a chance with that those feelings are pretty much completely useless, I wish I could just turn them off
u/ceegheim [+2] (4 days later)
I liked that chapter, and again even better if read from Amaryllis' PoV. The discussion they did not have yet, but which I'm looking forward to is: Defining a policy for self-modification. Amaryllis recklessly skipped that, and recklessly shut Joon down when he brought it up.
Clearly there is a strong argument for having safeguards and helpful oversight (trip-sitting) by party-members. Also, there is a strong argument for further (careful) experimentation in how self-reversing modifications actually are.
Fallatehr kinda implied that a "proper" modification does not "decay to base-line": It instead moves the individual into a new stable state, which perseveres even after the direct effects of soul-magic have worn off. This model makes more sense than "everything reverts", but magic does not need to make sense, and Fallatehr is known for lying.
u/Linear_Cycle [+2] (6 days later)
Honestly, I don't even care what's dangerous/ethical/a betrayal of the self, I just love the "set your intuitions against themselves and your logic as hard as possible" feeling that it gives. Like in Three Worlds Collide.
u/Laborbuch [+2] (7 days later)
u/cthulhuraejepsen, have you considered the salient points of u/Amonwilde’s comment here? Here’s the comment in full:
I'm guessing [Laborbuch’s] not a fundraiser, marketer, SAAS provider, or psychologist. If you prime a visitor with a low price, they might exceed it, but only slightly. You want to provide a lowest price that people can step over, a "reasonable" price that you push them toward, and an upsell price that primes people to think of the reasonable price as reasonable. This is basic stuff and you see it on almost any successful Kickstarter or Patreon. Check out Thinking Fast and Slow if you want the long version.
What I understood was with something like 1/3/9 USD, basically three tiers, there’d be a higher percentage of 3 USD pledges than a singular 1 USD pledge would incite. Partly because psychological reasons, but probably also because it'd be easier to show a higher monetary appreciation since a prospective patreon would need less clicks for the same action (if no tier would offer extra rewards).
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+3] Fruit flies like a banana (7 days later)
Yeah, I know all that stuff, it's just a matter of doing it. My wife actually works at an internet marketing company, so I have a fair amount of contact knowledge (plus I've done some work for them in the past, though it was code stuff, not actual marketing).
The current plan is $1 for digital downloads of the backcatalog, such as it is, $5 for one-day-early release, and then higher tiers for much more token stuff ... and then the other track that Patreon offers, which is incentives once the patronage total exceeds a certain amount, which will be things like side stories (which are actually partially written right now, so shouldn't impact the main project much), prettified worldbuilding/setting notes, and other stuff.
My wife is helping some, especially with the drudge work aspects, which she's more amenable to than I am. It's just slow going because of time/motivation constraints, and some of the inherent uncertainty involved (i.e. not knowing whether or how much it would actually increase income).
Edit: Added new tiers tonight, feedback would be appreciated.
u/SvalbardCaretaker [+3] Mouse Army (12 minutes later)
Gasp
edit: well, that was a lovely start to a national holy day. I'd love to have more chapters posted early for europe.
u/Kinoite [+2] (5 hours later)
That was beautifully bittersweet
u/Izeinwinter [+3] (a day later)
This chapter was the most Amaryllis Amaryllis has ever been. Not just the shutting down of a distracting romantic attachment by way of magic, but the entire edifice of consideration and argumentation around it, including reverting the change in order to better argue for keeping it shut down.
As someone else pointed out, Juniper suddenly becoming massively more socially aware because she hit symbiosis is also pitch perfect.
u/rubix314159265 [+2] (6 days later)
So I get that Fenn is leary of soul magic because of how that went, but with soul magic she could easily step to the top of the party power-wise.
It's been demonstrated that Elf bones carry luck, that Half-elves also have magical Luck, that a bone mage can sap from their own bones, and that a soul mage can repair that use.
Fenn could be pulling luck out on command when ever she had need of it. Has Joon not tried to convince her of this? Or at least offered reparative soul magic if she were to resort to it?
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+3] Fruit flies like a banana (7 days later)
Joon got access to POW, SPD, END, and PHY at lvl 10 (ch 19), and then CUN, KNO, WIS, and MEN at lvl 20 (ch 48). Thus far, he hasn't had any luck in tapping other things that in theory are tappable, like LUK, the SOC stats, or soul-embedded magic (like unicorn magic, which is implied to eventually be possible).
Per Symbiosis, Fenn is at half his skill level, which means that she's behind him by a fair amount. I can't recall whether or not she's been explicitly stated to be burning her own bones, nor can I find a reference, but it should be assumed that she is, just like Juniper, and either replacing them herself, or getting his help.
u/infomaton [+1] (15 hours later)
I'm surprised they didn't talk about the DM compensating for the lack of drama that would result from such self-modification.
u/CouteauBleu [+5] We are the Empire. (a day later)
You can't just handicap yourself all the time because you're afraid God might throw you a curveball if you're too successful.
u/infomaton [+1] (a day later)
That's true, but they often try to anticipate such curveballs and minimize their risks.
u/HaramDatingSim [+1] (a day later)
Now if Joon was actually intelligent, his objection would have been:
"Welp, someone's going to self-destruct spectacularly over the next six months.
Wait 'six months' was a figure of speech I meant seven months."
u/generalamitt [+1] (a day later)
I was reading the part where Amaryllis tells Juniper what she had done to her soul and the song "Ashes of Eden" started playing on my playlist, it was oddly appropriate, and also chilling. I think this is my new favorite scene.
u/aldonius [+1] (4 days later)
So I've powered through all of this in a couple of nights: it's fucking amazing and I haven't been this invested in a work for quite some time.
u/None [+1] (8 days later)
[deleted]
u/cthulhuraejepsen [+4] Fruit flies like a banana (10 days later)
If that's what made you drop it, I wouldn't suggest picking it back up, no.