scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/8mmdf8.md

[RT] [HF] Mother of Learning Chapter 85: Critical Mass

• Author: u/Xtraordinaire Team Glimglam*

• URL: https://www.fictionpress.com/s/2961893/85/Mother-of-Learning

• Score: 331

• Created: 2018-05-28T01:25:56

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u/LieutenantPoly [+95] (2 hours later)

Everyone keeps talking about the artifacts I like to point out the other big thing that happened this chapter. Zorian is finally throwing himself into learning mental enchantments, soul magic, and blood magic. Zorian truly the most evil resume, but now he can gain even better mind powers. Plus didn't Tinami want a way to become psychic. The Tinami ship is still here.

u/sicutumbo [+67] (2 hours later)

Blood/Soul/Mind magic are pathways to many abilities that some consider to be... Unnatural.

u/None [+33] (8 hours later)

[deleted]

u/Dent7777 [+27] House Atreides (12 hours later)

Not from the university...

u/None [+17] (14 hours later)

[deleted]

u/None [+13] (19 hours later)

[deleted]

u/notsureiflying [+12] (a day later)

It's treason, then!

u/DangerouslyUnstable [+9] (a day later)

Apparently not even /r/rational is immune to memes, lol

u/Caliburn0 [+2] (a month later)

Of course not. We all know they will be the end of civilisation. Nothing is immune.

u/LieutenantPoly [+17] (2 hours later)

True true, but only soul mages will be able to tell if Zorian made any soul enchantments, the same for mind mages and mind enchantment, and that's only if they were good enough to tell (eg natural or extremely skilled mind mages). Finally he could just claim the blood enchantments are from his witch ancestry. I know he had issues (moral or practical) with experimenting with these magics, but now he can finally get the superpowers we always wanted him to.

u/es_carva [+47] (2 hours later)

I am very hyped about all the mind magic foreshadowing in this chapter. Between Zorian pulling the stops, the 'live' hydra for him to study, and the Luminous Advocates helping him integrate it all, I feel Zorian is going to change massively in the next couple restarts.

u/Menolith [+2] Unworthy Opponent (20 hours later)

'live' hydra

You can probably drop those quotation marks in a few chapters when he figures out how to keep the hydra alive until they get their hands on the dagger.

u/SpeculativeFiction [+4] (21 hours later)

That's easy. It often leaves the orb on it's own, and actually killing it is more difficult than leaving it alive. Just let it run through the jungle, then grab the knife from the orb.

u/PhilanthropAtheist [+18] (10 hours later)

I really want a spinoff where Zorian will be the villain and Zach will be the main character but set in their regular world. On which Zorian may have had his mind shatter after taking over his real body. A Dr. Doom vibe where he makes multiple golem copies of himself. It feels like a stretch though.

u/LieutenantPoly [+26] (10 hours later)

I want a spin-off of Kiri and Nochka going to the academy. Maybe see a bit more of how the school functions and daily life in Cyoria.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+21] Father of Learning (14 hours later)

I want a spin-off where all the shipping hype goddamn pays off

u/kaukamieli [+10] (21 hours later)

It's called a "fan fiction". ;)

u/LieutenantPoly [+11] (22 hours later)

Ff net doesn't have a Mother of Learning tag, so my magical slice of life fic staring Kiri and Nochka is not to be.

u/SevereCircle [+1] (2 days later)

I want a spin-off of The Adventures of Kirielle and Enthusiastic Seeker of Novelty.

u/IllustriousMight [+1] (16 days later)

I just want a second book after this one finishes!

u/SevereCircle [+1] (16 days later)

I think that's already planned.

u/IllustriousMight [+2] (16 days later)

Cool. It would be really interesting to see how Zorian and Zach grow once they get out of the time loop. I know on some level they are growing mentally, even if they are not aging, but physical aging does impact cognitive development - most men's brains don't finish developing until the age of 25. I will be watching to see if his thinking starts to change as he gets older.

u/None [+1] (2 days later)

[removed]

u/LieutenantPoly [+3] (2 days later)

Yeah I agree with Silverlake if everything is going to get erased he might as well do whatever it takes to grow.

u/GoXDS [+1] (2 days later)

as Zorian referenced, it's not as easy as you make it out to be. you run into high risk of completely destroying your own mind. that surely makes you hesitate. original Zorian may not be at risk but simulacrum still don't like dying in general either so...

u/None [+2] (2 days later)

[removed]

u/es_carva [+1] (3 days later)

I am with you on the rituals; even if he was busy, he could at least have practiced on himself in any restart where he didn't expect a fight. But on mind magic, I think you are understating the danger.

We know the main character won't go mad or cripple himself, but he doesn't. And this is akin to doing a lobotomy on yourself because you know you can probably fix it when it goes wrong, then repeat it a hundred times until you get the desired result, and so on. Even if you fob it off to a simulacrum, he'll go through the same thought process and will probably feel that "because it would be nice being smarter" is a weak argument in hindsight.

He could force them to do it, but then they'll resent him and that's another can of worms.

u/Laser68 [+73] (48 minutes later)

TEMP MARKERRRRRRSSSSSSSSS, Finally we might actually see character development. Waiting forever for that. Also that was brilliant, delicious irony using Ichl's tactic against him.

u/notagiantdolphin [+43] (an hour later)

It's a little scary how much things will accelerate. The temp markers let them accelerate their own development by leveraging everyone elses. A few more restarts and they can probably bypass the wards on the treasury entirely, so they can teleport in and take the dagger.

They can use that to mostly guarantee four of the artefacts. Zorian got into QI's memories, so he probably knows where he starts the loop. If they knife-soulkill the pyramid wasps/Sulruthm, QI and the hydra/chameleon drakes that leaves them able to pick them up at will. That gives them four artefacts on demand, and they need only find the staff.

u/None [+40] (2 hours later)

[deleted]

u/notagiantdolphin [+15] (2 hours later)

IT said he 'started' to root through them. So I'm assuming he got something, from tidbits to a few full term memories. And like I said, the knife-kill of QI assumes he did get his starting location from his memories.

u/-Fender- [+15] (3 hours later)

Soulkilling Quatach would have a huge impact on the restarts. So much so that any new knowledge about the invasion would be utterly worthless once they're out of it. They would have no experience fighting the lich, it's possible that any high-ranking members of the Cult of the Dragon Below they targeted would react completely differently without the lich's support, and any large-scale attempts at ending the invasion in some way or other wouldn't be guaranteed to have any success outside the loop.

Granted, it would be a great advantage to start the loop with the Crown, but they would also lose a lot in return, not the least of which is the incredible potential of trading items for Quatach's knowledge. It would seem to me like a bad idea overall, even if they did happen to somehow have obtained knowledge of where Quatach begins the restarts.

On an unrelated note, I look forward to seeing what methods Z&Z will implement to try to reduce the impact of the Ibasans being able to summon demons during the actual invasion in the real world.

u/notagiantdolphin [+2] (11 hours later)

Sure. But they've managed to cancel the invasion at least once with their actions, so they might not need practice fighting him. If they do end up deciding to fight him outside then soulkilling him would be mad. Otherwise they're just removing an enormous threat.

It is a trade off, but I just can't see QI as anything but their biggest threat and one that they might not be able to overcome safely so close to the restart limit. Zach has already mentioned soloing other liches; he managed to kill Old Oganj pre-ZZ era. QI? It took an over-engineered battlefield and what seems like one of the world's pre-eminent telepaths smacking around his brain. And even that wasn't permanent. But YMMV, since if they cancel it this time, while the military will be on guard they won't know when the next will come.

u/-Fender- [+5] (18 hours later)

There are three times I can think of when they greatly changed the invasion schedule. The first time was with the help of the Cyorian aranea matriarch and the memory packet she transferred every restarts, while RR was still inside the loop. The invasion still occurred, but it was just so ineffectual that it didn't succeed at causing any great damage, to the point that it was practically cancelled while RR succeeded at convincing Quatach to follow him to attack a specific academy student who apparently was responsible. This scenario won't be able to be replicated, since the next time RR gets involved by giving all the passwords and his predictions, they will also have access to demons (greatly increasing the amount of damage they can create), and Zorian no longer has the matriarch's memory packet, which gave her specific knowledge of when and how to approach whom, and who was connected to the invasion, etc. They spent numerous restarts with a whole colony of mind readers digging through the head of all important people in the region without regards for their own lives, to get that information. And it's gone.

The second time they affected it was before Zorian teamed up with Zach, when he launched an attack against Iasku Manor along with Alanic and regiments from both the Army and the Church. They succeeded, they defeated Sudomir, the dragon and the manor's defenses. They were able to get information on the invasion because Zorian had no regard to propriety or Sudomir's well-being, and did something that Eldemar's own mind mages would not necessarily be willing to do, which was to dig deep enough inside Sudomir's mind to notice that soul magic spell he'd cast on himself to force himself not to say anything about the invasion, and make him forget it. Without Zorian's direct involvement in this, this would be unlikely to happen, and the invasion would go as planned, minus a convenient forward base and midway teleportation point for the Ibasans. And even if Zorian did get involved in Sudomir's interrogation, the only result was for the military to investigate constantly deeper, until the Ibasans felt threatened enough to have to choose either to start the invasion right away, or to abort everything. They did the invasion, and the primordial was successfully summoned. In the real world, they would have the support of demons on top of this, not to mention RR's support with his knowledge of all the passwords, so this method is also not a good way to go about it.

And the third time I can think where Z&Z affected the invasion, and the one I believe you're referring to, is when they launched an attack on the Ibasan base under Cyoria during Quatach's temporary absence, around 2 and a half to 3 weeks into the restart, to eventually leave with the teleportation artifact. The reason the Ibasans cancelled the invasion was probably because they judged that it couldn't succeed. They couldn't summon demons, they didn't have all the passwords to circumvent wards, they lost their best method to transfer a large number of people, and either a powerful group or the Eldemar government itself was perfectly aware of their presence, to the point that they knew when Quatach left and were ready to immediately launch an assault. The reason I think that trying to replicate this would not be as easy in the real world is because: 1) they would have the passwords, which would bolster their confidence in the attack; 2) they would have demons, increasing their morale further and greatly increasing the amount of resistance the base can put out, possibly slowing down Z&Z's team so much that Quatach has time to come back; 3) it would be past the midway point into the restart, and at this point, it's likely that RR could have neutralized a lot of important people, not to mention whoever else the Ibasans will be targeting during that time when they won't be confused as to why their summoning attempts aren't working properly.

In the real world, the first and foremost priority will be to neutralize Red Robe before he has time to make important connections with the invasion forces and before he notices that other time travelers have left the time loop. However, he has already shown himself to be careful when it matters, so this last thing will most likely be the first thing he does. Like before, he will probably begin his restart with heading to wherever he can find one of these robes, and then immediately invading the Noveda mansion to see Zach's state. If Zach is even awake by then, he most likely won't be ready to completely neutralize RR, and this will probably end in a stalemate, where both sides are perfectly aware of the other. And where Red Robe will probably assume that other time travelers have also successfully left the loop, if Zach succeeded at doing it. So he will be fully on guard, and what he does then, and how this will impact his advice to the Ibasans, we have no way of knowing. So in the end, Zach and Zorian have to be ready to face anything whatsoever, including Quatach. Why wouldn't RR just convince the lich to immediately try to dispatch Zach, after all?

Therefore, kicking Quatach out of the loop wouldn't just represent a huge loss of potential knowledge and instructions from a great teacher. It would also make them lose extremely valuable battle experience, experience which they will most likely greatly need, in a simulation that ensures that Quatach will have not the slightest bit of knowledge of what has previously been attempted while fighting him by two (or more) completely unknown opponents.

So in my opinion, it's just not worth it. Except maybe on the very last or before last restart, where they might do it just to ensure that nothing goes wrong in their attempt to exit the loop, and when they just won't have enough time left to learn more.

u/notagiantdolphin [+5] (a day later)

And the third time I can think where Z&Z affected the invasion, and the one I believe you're referring to,

That would be the one, yes. The only one where it was out and out cancelled rather than anemic.

So in my opinion, it's just not worth it.

At some point QI's going to go "Wait, I taught you these skills." and they'll have the same problem as they had with Alanic. The one they tried to head off with Silverlake. He also remains one of the few things that can actively threaten them, but I will admit that depends on him not feeling like he can walk all over them enough that he'll use soul magic in combat. Or if he doesn't soul-suicide-bomb in a fit of desperation should they somehow end up on the high-end of his threat scale, or if he somehow finds out about the loop from the newly inducted loopers and his rat swarms). Yes, he can teach them a lot, but the risks are very high as of chapter 85.

(Pure speculation: Or he might get curious about why Zorian wants to get his sticky fingers into the stabilization frame around his soul for 'study' because if anybody is going to be mad enough to ask him about it, then try and duplicate that, it's Zorian. I will admit to being disappointed they didn't ask for his disintegrator ray spell (or offer to trade Alanic's golden fire spell for it).)

I appreciate the write-up, I'd forgotten about the demonic problem - perhaps Alanic may be one of those unspecified higher ranks that can call on the aid of Angels. Or put in a 'good word' for them with the church on the topic of maybe having a few very faithful priests nearby to assist on the day - I don't think we know enough about spiritual being capabilities yet on either side except to point it out as 'bad'. That's probably the main hole in my reasoning otherwise.

Ultimately I think this is more of a pure value judgement in risk management on our parts rather than something we could sit down and has out 50 pages of bullshit over and come out with a mathematically perfect solution. One we probably won't come to an agreement on. You see him as worth the risk to keep practicing on and learning from indefinitely/17 restarts, while I don't, and that's from having opposite views on most points and possible contingencies.

u/Nepene [+3] (a day later)

The author noted that Alanic can't summon angels. Very few people can, and he is an ex necromancer.

u/notagiantdolphin [+2] (a day later)

Fair enough. He's got some unspecified but high rank/level of respect, so he probably can put in that 'good word'.

u/Cuz_Im_TFK [+3] (17 hours later)

But they've managed to cancel the invasion at least once with their actions

Keep in mind this was with no Red Robe. Might be hard to replicate when they have a mysterious advisor feeding them information and telling them "it's all good bro, I can deal with this"

u/notagiantdolphin [+3] (a day later)

Possible, but Q-I seemed pretty dismissive of him even then.

They might manage to catch RR straight out of the loop if he goes to kill the Aranea alone. I'll laugh myself silly if it turns out to be Ibery (or a princess using Ibery as some sort of cover identity, I guess. Whatever.)

u/TheConstipatedPepsi [+19] (3 hours later)

Zorian in particular is about to get much much more overpowered, using the dagger artifact he can study the hydra while it's docile and become mentally unified with his simulacrums, then he can use mental enhancements to accelerate his thinking speed. If you stack this with some improved time dilation chambers stored in pocket dimensions, you get a n_simulacrums * mental_speedup_factor * time_dilation_factor total improvement over normal learning speed. I think he could get 100 years of work done in the next 19 restarts.

u/XeL09 [+9] (6 hours later)

i think a few restarts will be wasted before the acceleration gets intense. ZZ need to continue to use QI as a resource (which they must to get the crown, and possibly dagger, at all if they didn't get QI's starting location from the mind attack). QI definitely looks into ZZ after they try to contact him and get tutoring from him. those that are included with temp markers will be sieves of information to the cranium rats as they certainly do not have the mind magic capabilities to prevent it. Also, mundane means of the marked people accidentally giving away information is an issue too.

the aranea, of course, could be included without issue, but the list of humans is much shorter. i suppose some of the temp markers may be able to cast Mind Blank (for a whole month, no less, which may reduce the number that can be continually marked) but that comes with its own problems, as its been said that using Mind Blank for too long causes up to insanity.

the non-aranea that seem fit within the specifications would be: xvim, who might be able to contest the cranium rats without mind blank and can probably weather holding it for as long as he needs, damien, his wife and his team, as they're too far away to be a liability at the start and can just cast mind blank on themselves while in the city, any of alanic (and those he vouched for)/lukav/ilsa/nora/kyron, who could randomly have the ability and silverlake, who is also far away at the start and whose abilities are still a bit of an unknown.

i suppose the question is how many restarts will be wasted. this next one could end with more soul damage after attempting to contact QI and his subsequent background check which could waste 5+ more

u/FlameSparks [+1] (20 hours later)

They have the support of Aranea, I am sure they can spare a few to protect the people who can't defend their minds. Assuming they are staying in the Capital all the time rather than skipping town where the Cranium Rats are.

u/LieutenantPoly [+3] (2 hours later)

Holy shit I never even thought about the dagger, but they can't soulkill QI because they don't know were he is at the start of the restarts, so they wouldn't be able to get the crown. They also want to use the hydra so no soulkilling it either, and lets be honest they're gonna have a kaiju fight between the hydra and sand worm atleast once.

u/notagiantdolphin [+10] (2 hours later)

Zorian got into some of QI's memories this restart. We don't know exactly what he got, but I'm guessing he might of prioritized QI's starting location. Even if he doesn't do that, and they just keep killing the hydra instead of turning it on the others - that's two guaranteed artefacts. But QI seems a bit too dangerous to leave 'alive' if they can access the crown at the beginning of the restart safely.

u/LieutenantPoly [+3] (2 hours later)

I think this time he was just feeling out QI's defenses, but if he did manage to get QI's location than absolutely he may try to soulkill QI. That being said I think his first priority would be QI's phylactery.

u/therealflinchy [+1] (6 days later)

Won't they want to get the artifacts after the time loop, at least some of the more powerful ones? So knife deleting may not be a good idea for all circumstances if they don't have the method perfect

u/monkyyy0 [+0] (3 hours later)

> Zorian got into QI's memories

No he didn't

u/None [+14] (3 hours later)

[deleted]

u/monkyyy0 [-5] (3 hours later)

Qi noped out before he got anything. Thats a failure.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+16] Father of Learning (4 hours later)

"Starting to root through" is not a failure

u/kaukamieli [+2] (21 hours later)

We don't know! We know he started, but we don't know how long he had before it fell down "without warning". Could be minutes, could be nothing. Could be he got which color his bath toy duck is.

u/melmonella [+4] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (a day later)

Could be he got which color his bath toy duck is.

And oh lord, how malicious that color is.

u/LLJKCicero [+11] (15 hours later)

They didn't even need Alanic/Xvim/Silverlake to fight QI this time. I mean, they're kind of cheating by preparing so many traps, but still. They're powerful as hell now, little teenage archmages.

u/domoincarn8 [+3] (a day later)

So are the Teenage archmages of the Upper East Side

or

Secret Little Archmage Liars?

u/LLJKCicero [+4] (a day later)

The Teen Archmage Next Door

My Teen Mage Boyfriend Can't Be This Powerful!

u/alexeyr [+1] Steersman (3 days later)

Teenage Time-Looping Ninja Archmages?

u/None [+3] (12 hours later)

[deleted]

u/Menolith [+13] Unworthy Opponent (20 hours later)

"Whoops wrong artifact."

u/HPMOR_fan [+3] (10 hours later)

That's the best part. It's dangerous though, especially inviting so many new people in at once. Think they could have waited one restart for the others. It would only take QI learning about the restarts from one of them to be very dangerous.

u/signspace13 [+1] (29 days later)

I argue that we have seen lots of development already, temp markers gives is a chance for character progression.

u/notagiantdolphin [+46] (37 minutes later)

Ooh. I wonder what his escape plan is? Make himself a nice pocket dimension inside Zach's soul maybe and pop out that way? Or just tunnel out as a soul. The first one will need some doing to avoid setting off the marker.

I like seeing how blase they are about things. How the ability to control a god touched hydra is merely a bit of a giggle. And that they've come so far they can stand against QI as long as they're ridiculously prepared. Given how he was at the start of MoL, it's a great illustrator of just how horrifying the old bugger is. And it's great to see a part explanation for the Cranium Rats - bothering me for a while.

And approaching QI was ballsy. Since he developed teaching in addition to his other skills, maybe that is an endgame for Zorian if he doesn't merge with his old self. Run off to Ulquaan Ibasa to learn from the terrifying murder wizard.

u/TheConstipatedPepsi [+59] (an hour later)

Ooh. I wonder what his escape plan is? Make himself a nice pocket dimension inside Zach's soul maybe and pop out that way? Or just tunnel out as a soul. The first one will need some doing to avoid setting off the marker.

I'm betting on escaping to the real world through the primordial prison to become a lich mind-collective with golem bodies.

u/notagiantdolphin [+23] (an hour later)

Hey, I didn't repeat my other crackpot theories. This is fresh quackery.

u/sambelulek [+23] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (48 minutes later)

I like seeing how blase they are about things. How the ability to control a god touched hydra is merely a bit of a giggle.

Of course, it's because Zach can solo that bug! And I think Zorian could as well if he prepared enough. Also, interesting escape plan. creating anchor upon soul is innovative. Doable?

u/notagiantdolphin [+13] (an hour later)

And I think Zorian could as well if he prepared enough.

He's had a few restarts to get into its brain, and he knows it well enough to seriously consider starting experimenting with his own mental wonkery in that direction. He could probably just order it to bite itself to death.

creating anchor upon soul is innovative. Doable?

Maybe, but it isn't physical which would make it harder than 'just' anchoring a soul to a phylactory or a pocket dimension to.. anything. Perhaps it'll be an 'imprint' that stores Zorian's soul in a dormant state for later retrieval instead, similar to Sudomir's trap. Or spits him out whole with soul. Or it could be a gate anchor on Zach's soul that doesn't need synchronization to cast, because of the time difference inherent in one of them being in the Gate. Or some sort of quasi-soul bond that doesn't actually bond them, only allows one of them to teleport to the other at will from anywhere. Zach escapes, Zorian tags along. Or makes them into a 'two souled being' - one slots into the others mind/body, but somehow keeps Zach's soul there to regulate the life force when Zorian is in charge until they can escape. Or they might just be trying to become a regular possessor entity. Entirely too many possibilities, all of them a bit crazy. Or, hell, if the gods built the machine, it's known in setting that gods duplicated people on occasion, souls included. Maybe it's a possibility to let it run down and it'll just eject copies of the 'controller' since the loop can't end while it is inside. A failsafe.

If they go the escape route instead of actually merging, I'm looking forward to an 'aftermath' story where we get to see Kirielle's reaction, his mother and Ilsa responding to two Zorians. And maybe Taiven responding to one with a supernatural affinity for how her mind works. And the Aranae. And - well, you get the idea. ZZ could help the Aranae start their desired equivalent of a noble house by refining their magic and psychic 'vassal techniques'. They'd even have a ready-made ally in house Aope, as long as it didn't subsume the effort entirely.

u/rtsynk [+2] (13 hours later)

whatever the escape plan is, if it it can work for one other soul, it can probably work for more

so imagine coming out with the entire army primed and ready

u/notagiantdolphin [+2] (15 hours later)

Except Silverlake. She's enough trouble as it is, let alone having two of them.

u/LLJKCicero [+7] (15 hours later)

Zorian would just "solo" the Hydra with fifty simulcra-golems at his side.

"Wow, did you really beat that Hydra all by yourself??"

"For some definition of 'myself', yes."

u/bruhman5thfloor [+8] (an hour later)

It'll probably end the way it all started: FUSION HA!

u/dragondraems42 [+82] (28 minutes later)

Man it's really funny to me that Quatach-Ichl is the best teacher they've ever had.

Aw, sweet, we finally get to see Blantyre. Sad that the part that we saw was so short though. I wanted to read more about the king and angry priest.

And we got the crown! The mana pool and the temp markers! This is a game changer, especially if Zorian can get any of them to learn enough mind magic to put their memories in the orb. Then he can just remove the memories after the temporary marker runs out and put them back in his poor friends brains.

Also, that arm. Brutal.

u/LordSwedish [+50] Q Continuum (an hour later)

To be honest, being a powerful mage and a relatively good teacher would make him Zorians favourite teacher as long as he didn't throw marbles at him.

u/Laser68 [+20] (an hour later)

*as long as he is not silverlake

u/braiam [+12] (an hour later)

*as long as it doesn't have old marbles

u/Vyredgg [+6] (17 hours later)

*throws marble with a pocket dimension full of marbles

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+10] Father of Learning (a day later)

When he finally meets Xvim IRL he's going to have an anti-marble ward, a marble-defense golem, and a pocket dimension linked to his glasses that opens itself in front of him whenever it detects an approaching marble.

And then just watch as Xvim's death-seeker pebbles avoid all of them.

u/Vyredgg [+4] (a day later)

Ahh I can totally see a mega dispell marble just breaking anything he prepares. And will turn out that that's Xvim best magic, just to perma fuck with his students no matter how good they get

u/kaukamieli [+24] (an hour later)

We got the crown, once. It was not easy and gotta get it again and again and again. Temp markers gonna help, though, when other guys get experience with fighting the lich too, though. Or maybe they'll just soulkill the lich instead? :D That would be the simple solution, but they need to be able to win him for real too.

u/DerSaidin [+28] (2 hours later)

Currently they rely on QI bringing the crown to them. If they exclude QI's soul from the loop they probably won't be able to find the crown.

They need to use the tracker on him somehow. Bring the king into the time loop, so he can just let them take the dagger to resume tracking qiick at the start of the restart.

u/BanjoPanda [+13] (8 hours later)

Zorian just dived in QI memories. There's a lot to loot in there about magic but also a lot of info like "where is QI at the start of the loop" or "why would anyone want to summon a primordial"

u/None [+7] (12 hours later)

[deleted]

u/BanjoPanda [+2] (13 hours later)

Yeah but on the other hand, Zorian just plundered the memories of the guy who set up the wards. I imagine it would be helpful

u/LieutenantPoly [+12] (an hour later)

Well they don't need to be strong enough to win, just strong enough to stop the invasion. Hell chapter 25 Zorian straight up stopped the invasion from happening in the first place with the Cyoria Web. If Zorian can prove that he's friendly with the real Cyoria Web, introduce them to Tinami, and gather information about people high up in the invasion, then they could stop it from happening. At that point they would just have to fight Red Robe.

u/kaukamieli [+7] (an hour later)

The lich might be angry about the invasion and just assassinate them later. :s I'd much prefer winning.

u/LieutenantPoly [+17] (2 hours later)

Well if you think about it QI doesn't seem the type to do that. Ultimately he doesn't want to destroy Cyoria, he wants to play kingmaker in the next Splinter Wars. Even if the invasion fails he could just wait for when Eldemar dedicates most of it's troops than attack the capital. The only reason he's even there is because of the Cult of the Dragon Below giving him extra muscle.

He doesn't seem the type to get angry over something ultimately pointless, plus he would recognize people as strong as Zach and Zorian would be too costly to assassinate thus being to much trouble for their worth.

And all of this is assuming he even finds out about ZZ. Remember that when the Cyoria Web and Aope family stopped the invasion, Zorian was actively going out and killing cranium rats, and QI never paid him any mind when he attacked the dance hall. My guess is he probably only thought Zorian was a prodigy that the aranea contracted for help. (aka some cheap mercenary)

u/kaukamieli [+3] (8 hours later)

He would probably see they are strong and knew too much about the invasion and spy on them and find out they know too much about him for them to stay alive. Clearly they would hinder his plans next time too.

edit: ah, true the spiders are back on the real run...

u/LuckyWandering [+1] (19 hours later)

but he Would do Something. It's in QI's idea of fairness. People have disrupted his (long-term, arduous) plans and efforts, so he would 'disrupt' them in some way in return. And, yes, it would all be done without any anger or malice, merely a 'balancing'.

u/LieutenantPoly [+3] (22 hours later)

QI never gave off a sense of fairness given the fact that his entire being he built to be as powerful as possible. He only wants to make sure a far away superpower wins the next war. He believes the best way to do it is by weakening the 2 closest superpowers to his country. For him the best option after the failed invasion would be to wait until the start of the next war, show ZZ that they didn't stop anything by stopping the invasion, and if I were him try to recruit ZZ to help them weaken Eldemar in exchange for not targeting their friend, families, and allies. It just seems to be the most beneficial thing for him to do if the invasion fails.

u/Sceptically [+7] (3 hours later)

Soulkilling the lich will actively hinder them if they don't escape in that restart or know where he is at the beginning of each restart.

u/kaukamieli [+1] (8 hours later)

They could probably barter for that information with the divine artifacts. :D

u/Laser68 [+15] (57 minutes later)

Not necessarily the best teacher they ever had, just Zorian's ideal form of a teacher.

u/dragondraems42 [+10] (an hour later)

Yeah, I suppose that Zach might have had a harder time with him. Still infinitely better than Silverlake.

u/I-want-pulao [+14] (an hour later)

I dunno, Alanic was pretty good too! I still remember how amazed Zorian was when Alanic wanted to start right away when he first came to him.

This was a longer chapter too, but even then there's too much to cover.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+37] Father of Learning (an hour later)

He started throwing fucking fireballs at Zorian without warning, which could have easily killed Zorian if he hadn't had that divine artifact that he didn't tell Zorian about.

Did I mention that was supposed to be a normal spar?

u/I-want-pulao [+26] (an hour later)

Oh that's right! Maybe my standards for Zorian's teachers are even lower than murderous liches haha.

u/sicutumbo [+15] (2 hours later)

Alanic knew that he could control his fires, so I don't think it was a concern for him.

Also, I really think that if they had payed QI to teach them anything related to combat, Alanic would look like a kitten made of cotton candy in comparison. QI is honorable, but honorable from centuries ago. He has no problem with torturing captured foes, or civilians, and his "I can barely keep up with this course schedule" approach is unlikely to be unique to dimensionalism. I don't think QI would have bothered with attacks that he knew he could stop if Zorian wasn't able to block them.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+22] Father of Learning (3 hours later)

Alanic knew that he could control his fires, so I don't think it was a concern for him.

If your teacher pulled out a gun and aimed it at your head and fired, then went "Surprise, it's just a lighter", would you call that a good teacher?

u/sicutumbo [+3] (3 hours later)

Alanic is a good teacher because he found something that Zorian needed to know outside the scope of what he was being asked to teach, and made sure he learned the lesson. Namely, if someone looks to be trying to kill you, and you aren't significantly more powerful than them, holding back is liable to get you killed.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+18] Father of Learning (4 hours later)

Except Zorian already knew that lesson. He explicitly already knew that lesson and told Alanic that he did. Even if he didn't know that lesson, you don't bring in lethal force when the other side isn't prepared for it when sparring. It's like having a martial-arts self defense class and then kneecapping someone. It's ridiculous and would get anyone fired for trying it.

Fortunately Zorian's immortal and Alanic doesn't have a boss.

u/elevul [+3] Cyoria Observer (3 hours later)

If he's teaching you psychological warfare why not?

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+18] Father of Learning (3 hours later)

He's supposed to be teaching you self-defense!!!! Pointing a gun at you and firing doesn't count!!!!

u/Cheese_Ninja [+2] (13 hours later)

That's the thing, Alanic wasn't teaching self-defense there. It was purely a test to see how long it would take Zorian to respond with lethal force when presented with apparently lethal force in an enemy. (Besides Alanic's divine artifact to heal burns, he also is able to control his flames such that they don't burn something.) For the purpose of Alanic's test, that last bit didn't even matter, it was more to assuage Zorian after the fact.

The main thing was that he didn't know that Zorian's method of attack (mental blasts that knocked the assailants unconscious) from that fight was purely practical and not overly merciful/naive.

u/sicutumbo [+1] (4 hours later)

If Alanic was teaching self defense, would he have helped Zorian by only ever attacking him with abilities he knew wouldn't be lethal even if Zorian didn't block them, when real opponents wouldn't do so? Wouldn't this set Zorian up for failure the moment he faced an opponent that was truly trying to kill him, and Zorian didn't have the correct reflexes due to always relying on his instructor using weak spells that wouldnt have harmed him anyways?

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+8] Father of Learning (4 hours later)

If Alanic was teaching self defense, would he have helped Zorian by only ever attacking him with abilities he knew wouldn't be lethal even if Zorian didn't block them, when real opponents wouldn't do so?

He would have told Zorian he could heal him from burns, that way Zorian might not have shot him in the head in retaliation. It's also a basic rule of sparring that both sides are aware of what is and is not allowed. This is ridiculously irresponsible.

u/Xtraordinaire [+1] Team Glimglam (9 hours later)

But he had that artifact, so what?

The only irreversibly bad outcome would be Zorian killing Alanic, not vs versa.

u/Cuz_Im_TFK [+1] (16 hours later)

irreversibly

...

u/Silver_Swift [+1] (a day later)

Irreversible From Alanics point of view ;)

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (a day later)

Did I mention that was supposed to be a normal spar?

Says who? I quote from chapter 33, "Being dragged into the courtyard for a 'test of his combat skills' sounded suspiciously like punishment to his ears."

Nothing about that sentence says that it has to be a normal spar. Alanic later stated, "The point was seeing how long it would take before you started resorting to lethal moves." It was specifically in response to Zorian mind-blasting the soldiers who ambushed him; for him it was a cheap, invisible, ranged takedown, but Alanic misinterpreted it as a soft approach.

Zorian referred to the test as a spar, but Alanic didn't.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+2] Father of Learning (a day later)

And you don’t think that was stupid on Alanic’s part? I love the guy but he’s quite as asshole

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (a day later)

I don't see anything stupid about it. Harsh, certainly. Unjustified, maybe, due to miscommunication, but it was a reasonable course of action given his goals and information.

u/LieutenantPoly [+14] (2 hours later)

Well he's taught people before, and he has no reason not to give them their artifacts worth. If people showed up with priceless artifacts in exchange for lessons then they could be a source of more artifacts in the future, and QI seems to like his shiny things.

u/sicutumbo [+22] (2 hours later)

Also, pissing off people who are willing to give away multiple divine artifacts, simply to deny them knowledge that can't be used to harm him, is a bad survival plan. It's beneficial for him to foster alliances with powerful mages, and screwing them over doesn't really benefit him much.

If it was a trade for something like combat or soul magic, sure, he could be potentially harmed by strengthening the competition, but pocket dimension creation is at best only mildly beneficial to comabt.

u/renegadeduck [+1] picky but enthusiastic (4 hours later)

It totally makes sense, though — he's had a lot of time to learn to be a good teacher.

u/therealflinchy [+1] (6 days later)

Yeah why did they skip Blantyre 😩

Some entire chapters are a single day of boring crap, and this chapter was damn near a whole restart of glossed over interesting stuff ugh

u/None [+37] (4 hours later)

I am so hyped for distributed supercomputer Zorian. He will probably cast unshaped spells of such complexity that QI will seem like a toddler casting his first light spell.

u/ksarnek [+35] (10 hours later)

"Zorian, a mage cluster computer in training, only wanted to finish his education in peace."

u/WalkingHorror [+29] (13 hours later)

"And by finish his education he meant ascend to godhood."

u/ksarnek [+52] (13 hours later)

In a surprising twist of event, in its last chapter MoL will be revealed to be a cautionary tale about the dangers of AI.

u/soaringneutrality [+11] (5 days later)

I can see it.

“Machine Learning” = ML

“Mother of Learning” = ML

The time loop is an analogy for how AI can use machine learning to become disgustingly proficient in a skill or set of skills. Computers are capable of running hundreds and thousands of simulations in the time it takes for us to do one iteration of that event. This operates much like the story’s time loop as an extreme time dilation field.

AI can easily gain the experience equivalent to thousands of human hours through this method. Example: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=92tn67YDXg0

In a way, machine learning is the mother of learning.

u/TristanTheViking [+5] (4 days later)

Nobody103 tears off his mask, revealing Sam Hughes.

u/Menolith [+3] Unworthy Opponent (20 hours later)

The education doesn't end until there are no more things to learn.

u/None [+34] (8 hours later)

Zorian turned his attention to the approaching king. He was surprisingly short compared to the warriors scattered around his palace, though the massive gem-encrusted headdress and glittering golden jewelry hanging off of him immediately marked him as the ruler regardless. In one of his hands he carried a black staff with a large, glowing, amber stone affixed on top.

Does anyone else suspect that this the last imperial artifact?

Also, including all those people in the loop could go wrong horribly. Now QI or the cranium rats only need to explore one mind (they are certainly less protected than those of ZZ) and they'll easily catch onto the entire thing and could ambush them anywhere with soul magic and they'd be finished...

u/Tserri [+18] (9 hours later)

Zorian would have felt it imo if it was the staff.

u/None [+13] (10 hours later)

But he has to actively activate a part of his marker to sense the artifacts, if he didn't have a suspicion about the location he may not do that.

u/spanj [+6] (16 hours later)

If you're flying around a continent trying to find a Bakora gate, you might as well spam the marker function every once in a while. It would be stupid not to.

u/LieutenantPoly [+5] (9 hours later)

The king's staff being the artifact may explain why he's king if lizardmen run on toughest guys in charge rules. Also I'm pretty sure all of those people are capable of perma casting mind shield which is all they would need. Plus most of those people aren't under threat by the rats. Daimen's team is on Koth, the aranea are masters at mental combat, and Alanics people are probably various members of the church. Taiven and the teachers are the only ones under threat, and I think that once the teachers realize this is real they're gonna play things safe. Finally Taiven is the one who tells Zorian to use mind shield to protect himself in the first place.

u/I-want-pulao [+5] (13 hours later)

Re the ruler, this is what is mentioned: 1) his headdress 2) his ornate jewelry and 3) the staff.

Pack it up boys, we know where the staff is. They deserve at least one (relatively - it took them stealing the Pear of A and then 20 days or whatever of airship travel) easy artifact grab. And it would be nice if the staff had the ability to command the other artifacts (although thematically that's more a crown thing, but one can hope on behalf of ZnZ)

u/DismalWard77 [+1] (2 days later)

pretty sure there's multiple local kings and this is just one of them who so happens to know where the gate is. My guess is one of the lizard kings actually have it since others might be fond of having the similiar set-up of the one that they happened to meet though it would be weird how the one with the staff hasn't subjugated the other local kings. Maybe stuck in a crypt? Either way I doubt its on the one they just met since it would've been mentioned as they would be dumb not to check with their marker on the first meeting just in case.

u/I-want-pulao [+1] (2 days later)

I agree with you there that they'd be dumb not to check - so it could be just a red herring. However, nobody103 always was a fan of lampshading (especially in the first few chapters). Having a king mentioned with a staff, it does make you wonder.

u/GoXDS [+1] (2 days later)

I would be very disappointed in this particular case if it happens. it'd be especially stupid of the two and not make much sense

u/tjhance [+28] (an hour later)

i am so hype about the mob of time-loopers. I got the biggest stupid grin on my face after I read the last sentence of this chapter

u/sambelulek [+28] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (9 hours later)

Bring a bunch of people into time loop, they say. It will be fun, they say.

inb4, Silverlake was an information leak. That's a highly skilled mage. Now, some nobodies and people who haven't been personally vetted by the duo are getting some information. That's 6 months of security concern.

(I actually looking forward on how things unfold. I hope author don't use report style writing like this last 2 chapters. It makes characters less alive)

u/LieutenantPoly [+2] (10 hours later)

Silverlake got caught because she specifically went after information on QI and was skilled. If some nobody went looking than they're a non-threat, plus they now know everything about QI that Silverlake discovered the first time around so they would need to anymore. Finally I think it's safe to say that the people they brought in would realize the situation and fall in line with the people who invited them. (Those people being a fairly high ranking warrior priest, their co-worker who is a known archmage, and their boss/husband who is a famous prodigy mage) (The aranea don't operate in Cyoria and Silverlake didn't bring anyone)

u/IncompleteEffort [+1] (3 days later)

yeah the report style makes it feel like he's rushing to the end of the story. I want to know what happens, but I want what happens to be made interesting.

u/pleasedothenerdful [+28] (2 hours later)

That's confirmation that Red Robe had access to the Royal Treasury and the dagger, then.

u/es_carva [+12] (3 hours later)

It's a pretty big flag, yeah, but on the other hand we also know RR is good enough at mind magic to perform unstructured attacks (which take decades of training, according to Xvim) and alter Zach's memory... so he might just be good enough to brainwash a royal into handing him the dagger.

u/therealflinchy [+1] (6 days later)

RR is nowhere near as good at mind magic as zorian tho no?

Zorian is good enough to brainwash a royal too, wonder why he hasn't.. moral issues?

u/es_carva [+3] (6 days later)

During the robbery, Quatach asked the same and I think Zorian mentioned he hadn't trained in long term compulsions, so he couldn't do stuff like that. That's why I figured someone sketchier could have gone that route (aka RR).

u/therealflinchy [+1] (6 days later)

Ahh yeah, it'd be obvious if he tried

u/Cheese_Ninja [+6] (13 hours later)

Yeah, which is enough to push me in the Tesen Zveri as RR direction a little bit, since he had influence with the crown.

Sneaking in to the treasury get the dagger seems near impossible, and breaking in to get it draws a whole lot of attention that didn't seem to happen during the soulkill chapter. Of the named characters, he's the closest to the crown and has some of the requisite magic skills for RR. Still not my favorite choice for RR, because at this point he feels like he would be ... "boring" maybe?

The other poster's comment about using mind magic to get a royal to give them the dagger opens up more possibilities, but we've got no idea how well defended they are.

u/Cuz_Im_TFK [+9] (17 hours later)

From RR's personality, would he really fake allowing Zach to beat him up in every restart just to keep his cover? He'd likely just put a compulsion on him that says "your guardian is your friend".

u/therealflinchy [+1] (6 days later)

Plus tesen is still in the loop

RR leaving should have soul killed whoever he is

u/thrawnca [+26] Carbon-based biped (12 hours later)

What are the odds that the staff's power is about long-distance travelling? Thematically appropriate for a staff, important for a Controller, and funny because they've had to solve the transport problem already to reach it.

u/Xtraordinaire [+25] Team Glimglam (12 hours later)

For a mundane ability pretty high, I'd say.

For the loop-related ability, it could be useful if it allows to start a loop iteration in a different place (i.e. inside the royal vault, or QI's phylactery hiding spot)

u/SevereCircle [+1] (2 days later)

Thematically appropriate for a staff

Why?

u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (2 days later)

Travelers lean on staffs.

u/thrasherfect92 [+24] (3 hours later)

I'm curious how powerful Zorian will be if he can utilize the crown's mana battery ability to its fullest. His main problem throughout the entire story has been his low level of mana. He developed his skill with magic to the extent that he is extremely efficient in his mana use with all/most of his spells, even to be point of improving on the simulacrum spell by adding golem bodies to make it more mana efficient.

This makes me wonder how he would compare to a fight against Zach, if Zorian had similar high levels of mana. To my knowledge Zach hasn't bothered trying to be efficent with his mana because he has always had a monstrous amount of it. It makes me think that if Zorian had the same amount of mana as Zach, he might be able to do twice as much with it.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+26] Father of Learning (4 hours later)

True, but Zorian has never devoted the level of time and effort to combat magic that Zach has. It's not just his mana reserves, Zach focuses on combat like Zorian does on spell forging.

u/vallar57 [+23] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (3 hours later)

"I'll never use such an ability" - Zach, a couple dozens of chapters ago.

How times change.

u/thrawnca [+13] Carbon-based biped (12 hours later)

No, he didn't say "I'll never use it." He said that he would never have previously used it, when he was alone in the loop, to get companionship. The situation is very different.

u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+2] (13 hours later)

Maybe they plan to break out all the temporarily marked people within the 6 loop time limit?

Or use Zorian's mind magic memory transfers.

u/LieutenantPoly [+1] (17 hours later)

If they can get the crown on the sixth restart they can try to give another mark to the time mob.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+47] Father of Learning (an hour later)

I knew someday he'd be their teacher. I was initially betting on him being the worst teacher who was actually trying to teach them but now I realize, you really can't get someone worse than Silverlake working in good faith and /u/nobody103 was probably stumped when trying, so he just went the opposite way.

Also: NEW PEOPLE (temporarily) IN THE LOOP YES!!!!!!! CHARACTER DEVELOPMENTS AND LOVE INTERESTS AND A CAST OF CHARACTERS WHO REMEMBER PREVIOUS EVENTS AND CAN FALL IN LOVE WITH THE PROTAGONISTS (have I mentioned that we've been in a dry season for shipping discussions for like 15 chapters now???)

u/LieutenantPoly [+68] (2 hours later)

Confession time: I am a shipping piece of trash. In act 1 (I don't remember the chapter) the Matriarch tells Zorian that aranean tend to leave memory packets in their mates. In my mind this was an out of nowhere fact, so to rationalize it I though the Matriarch was coming onto Zorian. Yes I thought the giant spider was trying to get with a human... and I thought it was sort of cute how this was like a sort of confession. I didn't think they were gonna die.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+41] Father of Learning (2 hours later)

This is the best fan-theory I've ever heard. I honestly had never thought of that Christ I'm laughing really hard right now.

u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+35] (4 hours later)

Huh. So, she proposed to him before the final battle against Red Robe.

No wonder she died. Death flags, death flags everywhere.

u/Cruithne [+11] Light Sith epistemologist (8 hours later)

We can call it Spearian.

u/eroticas [+5] (a day later)

It kills some the fun but male aranea aren't very sentient, which means that from an evolutionary standpoint female aranea probably don't associate mating with love. Unless it's like when a human loves a dog.

u/LieutenantPoly [+11] (a day later)

She might have been looking for an intellectual. Plus you don't know what aranea courtship practices are like males could be purely for mating and females have romantic relationships with each other. This could be the first male she ever wanted to have as a romantic partner.

u/Making_Bacon [+5] (3 days later)

This comment has been overwritten by an automated tool.

u/Revive_Revival [+2] (2 days later)

Whenever Zorian thinks about the Cyoria aranean he tends to mention how he misses Novelty specifically... I am not trying to say there's anything there for sure, but Zorian is kinda petty and the Matriarch has betrayed him before, then there's the whole thing with Taiven. I wouldn't be surprised if his bad experiences with uhhh older women (basically most of them, but specially silverlake) made him develop a preference for younger, inexperienced and kinda naive girls.

Just joking and grasping at straws here, but I wouldn't mind if he ended up with an Aranean, hopefully it's not a variant that eats the male after mating lol.

u/therealflinchy [+0] (6 days later)

On the topic of aranean... If they've been soul killed out of the loop, why wouldn't the dagger have the reverse of that ability?!

u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+47] (5 hours later)

The lich being Zorian's ideal teacher made me laugh.

Then I realized this might be more of Xvim's mentor plots: by teaching his students in such an absolutely horrible manner, he makes them accustomed to terrible teachers, to the point where they are willing to accept teaching from literally anyone. Giant spiders. Manipulative witches. Terrifying liches. Zorian just keeps going for more because he's totally used to Xvim.

u/thrasherfect92 [+20] (3 hours later)

Would it be possible for Zorian to reverse engineer the Crown?

In Chapter 85 we saw Zach and Zorian obtain the crown.

As we have previously learned, one of the crown's abilities is to be a "mana battery" of sorts.

All of the divine artifacts have had abilities that non-soulmarked people can use. To my knowledge, the abilities these other objects have can be reproduced with magic.

The Orb contains a pocket dimension, Zach and Zorian are learning how to make their own pocket dimensions.

The Ring has the ability of soul-sight, which Zorian has already acquired and we know it is possible for a magic user to obtain this on their own.

So, from this we know that the abilities of other pieces of the key can be reproduced, do you think it would be possible for Zorian to create a "mana battery" of his own?

u/Menolith [+10] Unworthy Opponent (20 hours later)

Incredibly unlikely. Didn't they say that no divine artifacts have been reverse-engineered when talking about the dagger? The knife is something Zorian has been destructively experimenting with for a long time now, and he still didn't have any clue what it was even supposed to do until the aranea told him.

I severely doubt that Zorian would be able to make more progress on the crown, especially when he benefits immensely from having it on his person intact.

u/Nepene [+7] (10 hours later)

Possibly, but the lich said that more mana was based on divine energy, which they can't perceive or manipulate.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+8] Father of Learning (4 hours later)

It'll be incredibly tough, considering mana batteries already exists but no one has ever managed to make a personal version of one.

u/thrasherfect92 [+9] (4 hours later)

But, doesn't Zorian excel in Spell Formula? If anyone in the story would be able to create a personal mana battery, I think it would be him and it would make up for his low mana.

If it is possible for him to somehow merge the mana battery theory with pocket dimensional creation (which is a huge stretch, I know) then he could create an impressive mana battery.

I know that it is unlikely that he will create one but, I would like to think it's possible for Zorian, with a lot of effort.

u/melmonella [+9] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (7 hours later)

A version 0.1 of such a battery could be a simulacrum stuck inside a pocket dimension with enough mana crystals to oversaturate the dimension with mana, and constantly meditating to absorb it in the most efficient manner. Though that is only going to boost his mana regeneration somewhat (I think a figure of 30% was mentioned at some point in the book, minus however much it takes to keep the simulacrum functioning), so it's not quite the same as the capacitor QI has.

u/Nepene [+5] (11 hours later)

Meditation is a way to sidestep a lack of skill in mana gathering. It doesn't boost your mana gathering that much if you're already very skilled.

u/marxistmarx [+3] (18 hours later)

The Naruto technique, I see

u/SpeculativeFiction [+1] (22 hours later)

Simulacrums can't absorb mana, as they don't actually have souls.

u/melmonella [+1] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (23 hours later)

By that logic they can't shape mana either, since they don't actually have souls. As far as we know, there is no functional difference there. Unless you have a quote?

u/SpeculativeFiction [+1] (23 hours later)

From chapter 62:

The copy was fully autonomous, could think and act on its own judgement, and even cast its own spells. However, it had no soul and no mana reserves of its own. Instead, both of these were shared with the caster who made it. That meant that aside from the initial cost of creation for the simulacrum, as well as the running cost of maintaining its existence, the caster also had to pay for every single spell the simulacrum decided to cast.

If simulacrums could passively absorb mana, there would be no real limit to how many Zorian could have. He could just stick dozens in Cyoria, and have them passively convert the ambient mana into personal mana (A la Naruto).

If it was at all possible for them to do that, he'd already be doing it. For big fights when he needs mana, or even for tasks they don't need to use mana for, like research.

u/es_carva [+2] (23 hours later)

Simulacrums share a soul with the original, so yes they can absorb mana, just as they can cast magic (unlike actual soul-less entities like golems). However it is still one single shared soul, so there is a limit to how much ambient mana it can handle (so no maxing regen by having all the copies absorb mana).

Edit: Found a quote on an example similar to yours.

u/melmonella [+2] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (a day later)

That's not really necessarily the case. Maybe the mana drain from simulacra increases faster than linearly(because your soul gets more and more stretched across different bodies, or some such), making it too costly to make additional simulacra even if those just sit meditating in cyoria.

Alternatively, mana absorbed by the soul is the maximum of mana absorbed by any particular simulacra, meaning that if you have two bodies trying to absorb 1 mana per second, soul absorbs 1 mana per second, but if you have one absorbing 1 and one absorbing 1.3, you get 1.3 mana per second.

u/Nepene [+1] (2 days later)

They can absorb mana, the author covered this, but the limitation is the soul. So, one can focus on mana gathering while others do things, but it doesn't give a substantial boost to the user unless the user lacks a great deal of skill in mana gathering and meditation and such techniques can boost it.

Zorian likewise uses soul techniques from the mayor to improve his communication abilities.

u/SpeculativeFiction [+1] (2 days later)

Covered it where? Because all the info I've seen points to them not being able to do that.

u/Nepene [+1] (2 days later)

I sometime need to get all the rest of the word of gods onto the wiki. I think it was somewhere in the patreon comments.

u/Nepene [+1] (2 days later)

Ah, found it, was on one of the articles.

Uh, Zorian’s simulacrums don’t help him recover mana faster. Quite the opposite, they slow his recover down. Looking at the earlier comment, I’m guessing your relying on the idea of simulacrums speeding up ambient mana assimilation, but this doesn’t work. A person’s ability to assimilate ambient mana is limited to what their soul can process, no matter how many simulacrums they have. A single simulacrums focusing on mana assimilation is enough to max Zorian’s recovery rate.

https://motheroflearninguniverse.wordpress.com/2017/12/17/disciplines-of-magic/

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+3] Father of Learning (5 hours later)

I don't doubt he'll succeed in the long run, but he has a lot of projects going on and less than two years remaining.

u/CaptainMcSmash [+3] (21 hours later)

I've said it before but the simulcrums are insanely powerful at leveraging the time he has to work with. Making 9 of them means in those 2 years he can get essentially 20 years worth of work done. If his mental enhancements say, doubles his thinking effectiveness, that's 40 years of certain types of work. It's not useful for pursuing most types of goals, but imagine golems, spell formula, potions, wards and divinations 40 years ahead of the curve. That's monstrous.

u/GodKiller999 [+1] (a day later)

Don't forget about time dilation chambers too.

u/melmonella [+1] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (a day later)

Lots of those require experimentation, which wouldn't be terribly helped by mental enchancements, but yeah.

u/theelbandito [+2] (5 hours later)

He has one option but it not available until he leaves the time loop. He would have to summon an angel to get a divine blessing.

But I would love to see him figure out how to replicate the structure of the Bakora gates into a mana battery.

u/sicutumbo [+37] (2 hours later)

I think this is the best chapter in quite a while. I've felt that the story was dragging a bit lately, with lots of time devoted to "and then we trained and got better at things" (which I do enjoy but it was getting a bit old), but this is a great payoff for all that work. Learning high level pocket dimension creation, mental enhancements, using the coin trick thing, getting the crown and dagger simultaneously, almost having the staff, fighting and beating QI with previously established mechanics, possibly getting a pet Hydra, characters persisting across restarts, etc. Things are really ramping up, and I love it.

u/TomSmash [+38] (2 hours later)

So something rather important to note that we got confirmation of today, Red Robe used the dagger to wipe out all the spiders, which means he's capable of breaking into the royal vault. Perhaps stealthily/legally which would indicate he's someone pretty high up, or at least connected. (since neither Zach or Zorian noticed a breaking news about the vault being broken into he would have had to do it stealthily, but there might not even be news in the first place since the govt would want to keep that quiet)

Also I'm not sure if I'm recalling this correctly but RR was worried that there were multiple people running around with the marker. Which tells me he probably originally got the crown from the Lich and then got Zach to put a temp marker on RR.

Also i seem to recall that the temp marker only lasts 6 months thats worth noting.

From there RR either compelled Zach to keep reapplying the marker (which would indicate he can reliably get the crown from the Lich) or he figured out a way to sabotage the marker in such a way that it would be a permanent marker.

For this to work though RR would have had to be an extremely competent soul mage before the time loop started. (likely came to know about Zach because Zach came to him for soul magic training) Presumably RR developed his unshaped mind magic skills because he needed to fool Zach's marker so it's unlikely he had unshaped mind magic skills before the time loop.

So RR is

• Capable of learning enough unshaped mind magic within 6 months to fool a divine tool
• An extremely competent soul mage before the time loop
• Capable of getting his hands on the royal dagger within a single month, perhaps with help
• Capable of getting the crown from the lich
• Not important enough that his disappearance would cause a big disturbance in the country, unless there are extenuating circumstances
• Capable of breaking/avoiding the connection with the divine tool that tracks everyone in the royal vault
• Enhancements such that he can withstand getting shot without too much trouble, probably acquired in the time loop

Am I missing/wrong about anything? Best fit I can think of is that he's a corrupt priest of some form.

u/xachariah [+25] (3 hours later)

Err, he could just be Veyers like the story implies. If he's got ties to cultists and then QI can do nearly all of the work and all issues evaporate.

• Instead of getting the crown from QI, he just asks.
• We know QI can break in to steal the dagger (or Veyers just groundhog attacked the Royal Family until he found a way for them to give him the dagger).
• QI knows how to break the dagger tracking.
• He can have QI experiment on his soul to match Zach's marker.
• QI is the extremely competent soul mage he has access to before the loop.
• Veyers does go missing after RR disappears.
• QI gives/teaches him enhancements.

The mundane scenario is that Zach is spending a loop hanging out with Veyers and realizes he can talk to QI on friendly terms for once, via Veyers' contacts. QI lets Zach use the crown under extremely controlled conditions to set a temporary marker on Veyers (after who knows how many ground-hog attempts). Then sometime within the next 6 resets, QI copies Zach's marker onto the (presumably loyal) Veyers. Zach thinks they'll go and be reset-buddies (like Z+Z are now), while QI thinks Veyers will come and help him escape the Sovereign Gate. They both get double crossed. Veyers has QI carefully fuck up everything he can with Zach's mind triggering a reset, then Veyers reneges on his deal with QI and instead of helping him uses him as a tutor over countless resets. Sometimes he lets QI know, which is how he gets perfect plans to steal the dagger.

u/WalkingHorror [+14] (6 hours later)

Break in is unlikely, since there was no huge uproar about it. Instead

• the dagger is fairly useless (as we know now) and is a matter of royal family prestige, rather then national security, same as Sovereign Gate

• just like Gate, getting it is probably a matter of jumping some bureaucratic hoops and pulling some favors up above

• freaking head of Cyorian Mage's Guild is a cultist and maybe one of red robe mages

As such, RR "just asks" for it after getting in on the invasion. It's just not QI he asks.

u/XeL09 [+3] (7 hours later)

iirc, zorian went the aranea immediately after waking up and suicided after his confrontation with RR so he would not have heard about an uproar about a break in.

i'm leaning towards some sort of prince or high up priest/adviser of the royal family that humored zach and finagled himself into the loop because of the speed at which RR got the dagger to start soul killing.

u/GoXDS [+3] (18 hours later)

as mentioned elsewhere in the thread, the soul killing was at the end of the previous loop before Zorian went back to the lair, not at the beginning of the loop of which he suicided

u/Xtraordinaire [+11] Team Glimglam (9 hours later)

The mundane scenario is that Zach is spending a loop hanging out with Veyers and realizes he can talk to QI on friendly terms for once, via Veyers' contacts

How do you picture that in terms of power dynamics? A millennia-old lich is trusting two teenagers from a hostile nation with his crown jewel artifact (pun intended)? There is no way Zach had access to a pile of divine artifacts to pay QI at that time, no way Zach was anywhere as confident in his defenses.

Zach thinks they'll go and be reset-buddies

There's quite a story here explaining how Zach went from punching a guy in the teeth to being his best friend.

u/xachariah [+3] (10 hours later)

Zach has been trying to convince everyone of the time loop for as long as he can remember. If he successfully convinces Veyers, then he eventually gets an audience with QI to convince him. Considering that Zach thought he was invincible back then, he might have just told QI and tried to talk him into a peaceful resolution. Worst case scenario he just resets, right?

The reasoning for Zach using the crown is that he's literally the only one that can use it. Zach wants to use it because he is aware (pre-memory-wipe) that he interacts with those artifacts uniquely and this would be his first chance to try it out, and QI wants to see it's true power used. It's not like Zach can steal it or destroy it.

Veyers gets picked as the target because he'd be the only 'neutral' person in the room.

u/Xtraordinaire [+8] Team Glimglam (10 hours later)

then he eventually gets an audience with QI to convince him

And why would he want that? Convincing Veyers, I get. Well, maybe, given that Veyers is an unstable cunt. Convincing QI? For what gain? Most importantly, in this scenario I find it highly improbable that anyone but QI walks out alive. The instant QI learns about the loop he becomes extremely dangerous (as seen just not so long ago).

Probabilistically there is a better consequence of the "Zach has been trying to convince everyone" MO. Zach tries to convince (let's say) the mayor of Cyoria about the upcoming invasion. The mayor is a red robe (a high-ranking cultist, one of ~10). We know that high-level cultists have infiltrated the government (i.e. Sudomir is the mayor of KD). Once Zach tells about the invasion to one of the cultists, he is fucked. Then a red robe becomes The Red Robe.

Is it possible that Veyers is a high-level cultist? I'd say no. His behavior before the loop is not corroborating this. The cult doesn't need him (teenager, super shitty mage, no soul/mind magic lineage)

u/Silver_Swift [+1] (a day later)

then Veyers reneges on his deal with QI

There is no way QI doesn't see that coming a mile and a half away.

u/Xtraordinaire [+5] Team Glimglam (9 hours later)

Capable of getting his hands on the royal dagger within a single month, perhaps with help

Enhancements such that he can withstand getting shot without too much trouble, probably acquired in the time loop

These two, yes. We have evidence.

An extremely competent soul mage before the time loop

Probably, yes. The marker is soul magic, so some soulfuckery was required.

Capable of breaking/avoiding the connection with the divine tool that tracks everyone in the royal vault

No, not necessary. You mention the obvious scenario: RR is fully authorized to use the dagger, so he doesn't need to break the connection, so it's either the heist or the legal way, but your list is not structured to reflect this OR.

Not important enough that his disappearance would cause a big disturbance in the country, unless there are extenuating circumstances

Or important enough that his disappearance is swept under the rug. Another possibility is that you are reading the loop mechanics completely wrong, and he doesn't "disappear". He is replaced with his pre-loop copy.

Capable of learning enough unshaped mind magic within 6 months to fool a divine tool

Capable of getting the crown from the lich

No. You're making a commitment to tempmarker->permarker theory without pretty much any evidence, or even against some evidence.

Red Robe is a shitty mind mage, getting mind blasted by a barely trained Open (Zorian).

Red Robe being worried about multiple passenger loopers only indicates his method of inclusion was reproducible. Nothing more about the specifics. But it's a possibility, sure.

I think this points to the head of the Cult, as RR. High-level cultists are also high up in the Eldemarian power structure and on good terms with the lich.

u/Cuz_Im_TFK [+2] (17 hours later)

I think this points to the head of the Cult, as RR. High-level cultists are also high up in the Eldemarian power structure and on good terms with the lich.

This seems likely from the evidence you listed, but the conversation between RR and QI in Ch 26 makes this feel unlikely. He calls him "little whelp" and talks about just getting rid of him because he's becoming more of a hinderance than a help.

"little whelp" could be something a thousand year old lich says about a grown (and probably rather old) man, but it's still weak evidence in favor of RR being rather young.

As for the "more trouble than he's worth" and "i'll kill him later" comments, that's probably not something you'd say about the person who's in charge of a huge portion of the invasion plan.

u/t3tsubo [+2] (11 hours later)

You're missing the fact that RR can get the dagger within a few hours of the loop restarting given how quickly he soul-killed the Cyoria Web that one reset.

u/Cheese_Ninja [+4] (13 hours later)

Actually, there's no indication that RR had the dagger when he was attacking Zorian at the beginning of that restart. He soul killed the vast majority (maybe even the entirety) the web on the night of the invasion. All that Zorian encounters after that are males, and they're still around several restarts later in chapter 41. And if there were any female aranea survivors, RR could have just killed them after Zorian died in that restart where they confronted each other.

u/theelbandito [+4] (3 hours later)

So, each artifact has two functions. One that is the actual divine function of the artifact, and a time loop related function that you only have to physically have it one time (though the globe does not work like this for some reason).

The only reason to now have them all physically together is to unlock the sovereign gate to leave.

The knife unlocked their ability to “cast” soulkill. Now that they have presented it to the entity they do not need the knife anymore to use soulkill. Now the knife’s actual divine artifact ability is to be able to physically effect the spiritual and cut it.

They ring unlocked their ability to cast a tracking spell on anyone. The divine artifact property of the ring provides the ability to have a soul sense.

The crown unlocked their ability to cast the temporary soul marker ability on people. The divine artifact of the crown is the mana battery that they discuss.

The globe has the divine ability of being a memory storage device. It does not ‘unlock’ any ability like the other artifacts but the information they store in the globe stays throughout their time in the sovereign gate. The divine artifact ability of the globe is the pocket dimension itself.

Now as for what the staff does or unlocks I haven’t the foggiest idea. I would be interested in what everyone thinks about that.

EDIT: I was wrong. After looking into it more it looks like they DO need to have physical control of the artifact to use is sovereign ability.

u/LordGoldenroot [+5] (8 hours later)

But they do need the artifacts present to use their sovereign gate abilities.

u/LieutenantPoly [+0] (9 hours later)

No, all the Sovereign Gate powers can be used via the soul marker. The issue is that ZZ don't know what triggers on the marker activate what power, so they've only been using the powers with the artifacts in hopes of not fucking themselves.

u/GoXDS [+5] (18 hours later)

except they specifically call out the Ring as not being too useful since they don't have access to the ring at the beginning of the loop (ch83). if the marker carries across, then there's no need to re-mark, thus if they could track the markers without the ring, there's absolutely no reason this is an issue. thus, you must have the artifact to use it

also see Ch84 where Zorian mentions not being able to access his notebooks because it's stored in the orb, which he does not have access to

u/LieutenantPoly [+1] (19 hours later)

In chapter 55 the Guardian states that the controller can access the abilities of the keys, but doesn't state that they necessarily need the keys to use them. Each marker ability they have used (manual restart, track keys, and how many resets they have left) they activated through switches in the marker. They just haven't experimented with the switches. Plus in Soulkill there was no mention of Red Robe using the dagger when all the other keys required them to be on hand to be ysed.

u/GoXDS [+4] (20 hours later)

it's still a leap in logic to assume that you can use the Artifacts' Loop abilities strictly with the switches in their marker. there's no evidence suggesting such. on the other hand, I presented two of the artifacts requiring (or at least heavily implied) to require the artifacts on hand. Red Robe doesn't need to wave the dagger to use the abilities either so we can just as easily assume he had it on his person when he used the purple beams.

another point to consider, if they can use these abilities without the presence of said artifacts, why even tie these abilities to said artifacts when they have plenty of other abilities (like the ones you listed) already on the marker

u/LieutenantPoly [+1] (22 hours later)

The Guardian says that to get a marker for the gate you need to be given one by the maker, his agents, or with the artifacts. Someone who entered using the artifacts wouldn't have been told how to use their marker, so it would make sense for them to still have a way to use the powers.

As for the 2 artifacts you mentioned it's simply that they didn't need to know how to use their markers for those powers. They conclude that it's useless because the divinations they know is already better than what they get from the ring. As for the orb, getting it is so trivial we basically just assume they have it now.

u/GoXDS [+1] (23 hours later)

to even use the Artifacts' loop abilities, you must use the marker. so there's still absolutely no reason for the abilities to be tied to the Artifacts under the assumption you didn't need them on hand to use them. Z&Z had to talk to their markers to interact with the orb. they're effectively the same as an unaware that got brought in via Key. if the intent was for such a person to be able to use it, then Z&Z should've been able to do that as well. except this is not the case since it was not at all obvious to them, which defeats the entire point. also, it doesn't make sense to still allow a person that got in via Key to be able to use because that allows almost anyone to get in and abuse, including people the Maker and its Agents did not intend to bring in or want to bring in

"Or at least that's the effect they would have had if Zach and Zorian had started the restart with the ring. Since they hadn't, the value of the tracking markers was greatly reduced."

this sentence is before mention of them being too good for the ring. so as I said before, this implies very heavily they need the Ring on hand

"Aside from soul magic, the two of them also worked on their basic shaping skills and tinkered rather heavily with alchemy, since this was the one magical discipline that hadn't been affected by their injuries in the slightest.

They didn't try to inform anyone of the time loop during this time. Most of the notebooks and other gathered information had been stored in the palace orb, which they couldn't actually access at the moment."

they cannot retrieve the Orb when this line was mentioned. they're still incapacitated. meaning they cannot access the notebooks without the Orb. they're also relaxing and recovering so there's no reason to go on a journey to collect the orb, even if capable

and again, you still need to provide evidence in favor of them being able to use the abilities without the Artifacts on hand. there has been none, considering the orb was always on their person, and they only just got the Dagger and Crown, and the Ring's tracking not being shown in use, and the Staff still at large

u/therealflinchy [+1] (6 days later)

What do you mean within 6 months?

Zach was several years, at least, into the loop by the no?

u/TomSmash [+1] (6 days later)

IIRC from the talk with the controller, a temporary marker will only last for 6 months/restarts. Meaning that once RR got his hands on a temporary marker he would have 6 months worth of restarts to become skilled enough to manipulate the marker and turn his temporary marker into a permanent one.

u/therealflinchy [+1] (6 days later)

Ahhh. Hmmmmmmmmm. Gotcha.

Also what do you mean "getting shot"?

I don't even remember them having guns in this world lol

u/TomSmash [+2] (6 days later)

When Zorian first ran into RR down in the tunnels after RR had killed off all the spiders, Zorian bought a gun because he didnt have the credentials for a blasting rod. He ended up shooting RR and it hurt him but RR was able to shrug it off without too much trouble

u/LieutenantPoly [+0] (9 hours later)

You don't need the artifacts to use the powers. The markers are capable of using the loop specific powers of the keys. The reason they don't use the artifact powers is because they don't know enough about the marker to safely activate a specific power.

u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (a day later)

You don't need the artifacts to use the powers.

I'm pretty sure that you do. They couldn't, for example, access the memory bank without having the orb. And the reason they found the ring's tracking marker function to be of dubious usefulness was specifically because they didn't have access to it from the start of each loop, so they couldn't observe where everyone started off.

u/pm_your_dnd_stories [+17] (2 hours later)

Something small: This chapter felt really substantial and meaningful, unlike a few other recent ones. Very satisfying!

u/CaptainMcSmash [+17] (2 hours later)

They mentioned ransacking the treasury in the last chapter but never got a chance to actually go through everything because of the soul detonation. I wonder if there was any off camera looting done this time. I just love it when they loot treasuries, rob people and get stuff.

u/zeropriority [+16] (7 hours later)

Once again cranium rats are mentioned without any real follow up. This plot thread is bound to lead Team Z to RR or something equally important.

u/distrofijus [+14] (7 hours later)

Some of the loose ends got tied up. We know that crown has fixed capacity (not a multiplier) for sure now. I would bet that divine blessing is not a multiplier as well (it would more than double Zorians mana, but it wouldn't reach the amount Zach possesses)

Now I'm curious if they can make gate large enough for a ship to fly through. The size was never specified and depending on that there might be some easier/harder options for Blantyrre exploration. Looking how the local lizard king they've met had held a staff as regalia - looks like the divine staff ended up owned by some local king (and one of the strongest/largest kingdoms most likely).

I think Zorians plan is to created dimension anchored on soul bond he and Zach will make and he will hide his soul or himself in that pocket dimension to fool the controller.

I think Damien will be the first one to ask for soul mark. And I'm not sure what is the plan (what the involved parties will do after markers will be close to expiring). This is going to be a huge mess.

u/I-want-pulao [+2] (13 hours later)

I'm pretty sure that they can figure out a way to keep their memories - the notebook transfer was working pretty well for Xvim, Alanic, Kael, and Silverlake. All this does is extends a single restart to 6.

u/distrofijus [+7] (15 hours later)

it is going to be different. While they know that they are being killed/recreated each restart, the experience of six cumulative restarts disappearing/just getting some memories / notes instead is going to have much larger psychological burden. There may be some workarounds like crafting memory packets and transferring them (or asking Zorian for a stuff like he did for Damien/Fortov).

I do think it is going to complicate things instead of making it more simple.

u/Mountebank [+24] (an hour later)

Is it weird that the thing I'm looking most forward to with the temp markers is a (semi)-permanent development of the relationship with Tavien?

u/sambelulek [+4] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (a day later)

You're a sadist. Zorian might get depressed once Taiven forget.

u/sambelulek [+11] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (44 minutes later)

Typo thread? Well, I'm not really typo spotter kind of guy. But this is unwieldy

Kirma's divination flower thingy and the spell formula crafters she referred him to after he had spoken with her were especially useful to him in this regard.

I think this chapter has more unwieldy sentences. Will add more later.

Decision upon marking a whole lot of people sounds more impactful, is this the rationale of putting the chapter in non-chronological manner? I think I paused about 5 seconds before I realized this.

There's no mention of Alanic, Xvim, and Silverlake when the duo fought the lich. Were they so capable in combat magic now?

u/-Fender- [+4] (3 hours later)

They were better prepared this time, and they brought simulacrum along. Also, they didn't want a repeat of last time, with Xvim's mind being dug through and a detonating skeleton.

u/DRmonarch [+3] (5 hours later)

It calls Orissa Daimen's wife instead of fiancée.

u/distrofijus [+1] (12 hours later)

Thankfully, by now they had a fair bit of experience in making imperial artifacts work, so after a few hours they succeeded in figuring out how the crown.

Seems like the missing word like "did" or "was to be used" at the end of the sentence.

u/eroticas [+1] (a day later)

Typo

artifacts and exotic towards him

u/eroticas [+1] (a day later)

excuses to make himself better

u/mellowanon [+15] (an hour later)

if the dagger can remove someone with soulkill, can it undo it as well?

u/LieutenantPoly [+31] (2 hours later)

Good question I still miss Novelty. She was truly best spider.

u/theelbandito [+12] (2 hours later)

They asked the gate entity about that in the first interaction with it. It said they could not bring them back.

u/I-want-pulao [+14] (46 minutes later)

Ok, as satisfying as that was, I want MORE

This was the first mention of Orissa in a long time. I'm still not convinced she's all that nice, but there was nothing in this update to throw any shade either way.

u/Menolith [+7] Unworthy Opponent (20 hours later)

Ok, as satisfying as that was, I want MORE

This is me for the past three years or so.

u/I-want-pulao [+1] (a day later)

I started reading this in 2015 too! Ch 38: Return to Cyoria, those were the days.

u/rtsynk [+7] (12 hours later)

where's Kael? shouldn't he be

1. 'in the loop'
2. out trying to get the government to research his results?

they are presumably going to have to learn from QI a few more loops. That puts them at risk of QI recognizing them already having 'his technique' like Alanic did, which is a very dangerous situation indeed

u/theelbandito [+6] (15 hours later)

When they were discussing whether or not to use QI as a resource a few chapters back they mentioned the ‘him recognizing his own techniques’ issue and they decided they would go for a totally different topic each time and only repeat after they had exhausted all the useful topics.

I’m actually really excited about this as it should quickly advance their magic in some very rare areas.

u/rtsynk [+5] (17 hours later)

good catch, per ch 82
"It just means we have to be smart about this. We ask him about pocket dimensions in one restart, then about soul magic in the next, then about dimensional gates and so forth. We try our best to get the most we can out of each interaction, and only when we have exhausted a full list of topics do we consider revisiting some of them. If we're pursuing a different topic each time, he shouldn't be able to notice anything is wrong."
still, that doesn't really address the issue, it just delays it
there's no way they got all they need, so they're going to have to go back and keep going back until they do

u/I-want-pulao [+1] (a day later)

I'm pretty sure he's in the loop - author didn't mention Taiven, for example, when he mentioned the close members (Xvim, Alanic, Silverlake) but mentioned Taiven at the end when she queries Zorian about his arm. There's very little possibility that Kael won't be around, and I'm sure we'll see that in the next chapter.

u/rtsynk [+2] (a day later)

probably, but it's just that Kael going to the government for help was supposed to be a big deal and he's one that benefits most directly from being in-loop, so I was hoping to hear at least a little about it

u/rtsynk [+1] (13 days later)

durr, just noticed this was pretty much already answered in the text:

" he provided them with the names and locations of two secretive mages that also knew a thing or two about pocket dimension magic – information that was almost as priceless as Quatach-Ichl's own lessons, as far as Zach and Zorian were concerned"

so they have other people to go to

(at least for dimensional magic, we'll see about soul magic)

u/GodKiller999 [+6] (an hour later)

Talk about ramping things up, we're about to experience a very different world in the coming chapters I feel.

u/Crazy_Demon [+6] (an hour later)

Hmm, now that they mention having to worry about Quatach coming back for revenge, I wonder how they plan to deal with him outside the loop? Yes, they can banish him, but once he's up and running, he’ll be sure to think of counters. Plus, since the month won’t reset anymore, they’ll basically have to look over their shoulder for the rest of their lives.

u/bruhman5thfloor [+6] (an hour later)

ZZ just need to a moment to lift the hideout for his phylactery, then it's game over for QI.

u/Frommerman [+19] (2 hours later)

QI almost certainly erases that information from his own mind every time he comes back out. He'd know it's in his ridiculously well-defended fortress with soul-keyed defences powered by thousands of the souls of his enemies and capable of instantly shredding the soul of anyone except himself who enters, but he wouldn't know where in the massive, sprawling complex it is.

u/ksarnek [+3] (10 hours later)

He probably doesn't even need to know the approximate location. When he decides to withdraw (or is banished) he wakes up in (?) his philactery and realizes it was in his favorite fortress. He can then immediately delete this information from his mind again.

u/jaghataikhan [+1] Primarch of the White Scars (11 hours later)

Unless he's been getting complacent with that just like he's gotten with his mental defenses?

u/Bighomer [+6] (6 hours later)

I was hoping Zorian would receive the conspiration group wearing the crown like a real madman. Judging by their reaction, he wasn't :(

u/lostatnet [+7] (18 hours later)

With all of the people that Z&Z may have recruited for 6 loops, there is a lot now that can be delegated.

With Alanic's group, we can see a better assault on Sudomir & progress on stopping the kidnappings of shifter children.

With Xvim & the teachers, we can see a better response on aiding the city with the upsurge in monster attacks & planning on countering the invasion.

With Daimen's group, we can see the orb being hunted without Z&Z's aid hunting the orb is much quicker. Also, we may finally have progress on Daimen's magic gathering initiative in Koth.

With the various aranea, we can see a deeper analysis into Bakora Gates (perhaps by destroying one) as well as discovering more Bakora Gates (such as on Blantyrre).

Zorian may find more opportunities to learn from these sources as they understand his situation better. The Filigree Sages in particular may be willing to help Zorian finally complete his learning of aranea spell formula "webcraft".

All of these groups will definitely have a an effect on the status quo. I expect that the invasion will be completely exposed. Quatach-Ichl will definitely have Z&Z on his radar & may even kidnap one of the new "time travelers". I expect any further tutoring from Quatach-Ichl will be difficult to achieve.

Edit: Did I miss anything?

u/FriendlyAnnatar [+5] The Greater Good (a day later)

Not really missed, but it's worth noting that each loop ZZ spend a lot of time interacting with all these people, getting the Bakora gates online and their Koth initiative online and all the other stuff. This not only improves how much those groups can help out, but it also saves them so much time on those fronts, which in turn allows them to be more productive during each loop.

u/Bezant [+14] (23 minutes later)

I find it hard to believe that QI is taking time to tutor two kids while planning/leading a massive invasion.

u/Shaolang [+60] (28 minutes later)

Eh, 2 hours a day for a while in exchange for several divine artifacts doesn't seem like a bad trade.

u/notagiantdolphin [+41] (38 minutes later)

Especially if he decides they might be an investment in the future, convinced to immigrate to UQ.

u/kaukamieli [+16] (an hour later)

Well, when their nation is in shambles, looks like a good idea.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+19] Father of Learning (2 hours later)

When your city is in ashes, then, send me your resume.

u/LieutenantPoly [+22] (2 hours later)

Zach: I was probably the strongest combat mage in Eldemar before it was destroyed. Now I definitely am.

Zorian: I'm a master mind mage, adapt at soul magic, and know the basics of blood magic. Really I'm basically a UI mage already, plus I have plot armor.

Edit: UQ>UI

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+10] Father of Learning (3 hours later)

Immortality is not plot armor!

u/kaukamieli [+1] (a day later)

UQ?

u/LieutenantPoly [+1] (a day later)

Meant UI for Ulquaan Ibasa thanks for catching that.

Although if they're anime fans they may have thought I was referencing UQ Holder which is an anime about immortals.

u/Veedrac [+32] (38 minutes later)

He has simulacra, no?

u/Avidya [+17] (5 hours later)

That was my thought, too. If QI can do 8 simulacra, for instance, then instead of having 24 hours a day (no need for sleep I would suppose), he'd have 192 hours a day, 2 of which would only constitute a bit more than 1% of his time. QI is a master soul mage, so 8 or more wouldn't be surprising at all.

u/sicutumbo [+10] (2 hours later)

He is spending at maximum 60 hours in order to get multiple divine artifacts of various ability. The invasion doesn't require his constant personal attention, and we know he occasionally disappears for a few days at a time. He's getting a great deal from them.

u/LordGoldenroot [+3] (8 hours later)

I wonder if the staff the lizardman king was holding was by any chance the staff Z+Z was looking for.

u/ksarnek [+3] (10 hours later)

I was wondering the same thing, but we know they are able to identify them in a special way, so I think they would have mentioned it.

u/Calsem [+3] (13 hours later)

Bringing more people into the time loop with extra markers is great, but how they heck will they get them out of the loop? They shouldn't just leave them to die in the final loop.

u/Xtraordinaire [+7] Team Glimglam (14 hours later)

The loop annihilates every one each month, you know. It has some flimsy reasoning about souls not diverging too much, but it's an extremely poor excuse.

Giving out temp markers doesn't place a moral obligation on ZnZ, if anything they have decreased the number of souls annihilated by a loop a bit. It's not a total victory, but placing temp marker is a morally good thing.

u/Calsem [+3] (14 hours later)

ZnZ have a moral obligation to try to save as many people as they can. They can't save the normal people whose soul resets each loop but they should at least try to bring the marked ones out of the loop.

u/Xtraordinaire [+1] Team Glimglam (14 hours later)

That they do. What I meant was that marking people doesn't place any extra obligations. In theory, they want to bring out as many people as possible, and then probably to destroy the gate (well, this one is debatable)

u/GoXDS [+1] (23 hours later)

not really. that argument falls down the pit reaaaaal fast. for one, even if they got out of the loop, how will the extras survive? or the original, depending?

there's also the fact that they can "save" many, many lives by exiting the Gate ASAP because doing so will mean less copies are made and destroyed, no?

then there's also the argument that if they can mark and then can save them, why not "everyone"

u/Calsem [+1] (a day later)

not really. that argument falls down the pit reaaaaal fast. for one, even if they got out of the loop, how will the extras survive? or the original, depending?

If they figure out a way to get themselves out of the loop it might be able to be extended to to others. Or maybe not, but it's worth looking into.

there's also the fact that they can "save" many, many lives by exiting the Gate ASAP because doing so will mean less copies are made and destroyed, no?

The vast majority of people's lives are virtually identical throughout the restarts. Exiting earlier or exiting later; no difference. And you could argue that exiting later would be better because it would give ZnZ more prep time for the real battle.

then there's also the argument that if they can mark and then can save them, why not "everyone"

In a ideal world they would save everyone. But that is simply not feasible. And saving just the marked may not be feasible either, but it's worth a shot.

u/GoXDS [+1] (a day later)

it's the same questions that Zorian has to answer. are they going to push out/kill the originals to save these copies? will they make a new body for them? and if so, how will they live in society where they don't actually have an identity? it's far worse with increasing number of people. you can't expect to kill 100 originals for 100 copies nor can you integrate 100 copies into a society (or force them to live elsewhere separate from their original lives?)

I'm referring to the copies that each new loop creates. say there are 100m people on the planet. if they exit the loop with 5 loops to spare, they "saved" 500m lives. if they exit the loop with 0 loops to spare, there goes 500m lives

u/Calsem [+1] (a day later)

To save a life implies that you are preventing someone from dying. But once the loop ends people don't die - they just lose a few months of memories. And because each loop is the same, the number of loops doesn't matter.

By not saving the marked, on the other hand, you're taking years of memories away from them accumulated throughout the restarts.

u/GoXDS [+2] (a day later)

but they do die. that's the entire reason why the Guardian tells them not to mark people frivolously. the loops explicitly (re-)creates entire people and souls. they're not simply losing memories. their entire existence is destroyed. each loop is millions of souls being destroyed and killed. how does number of loops not matter?

"When an iteration is over, everything in it is destroyed," the Guardian began. Well, good to have that confirmed… Zorian had assumed it was so for a while now, but having the Guardian verify it was nice. "Under certain philosophical outlooks, this could be viewed as mass murder…"

the copies are separate entities from the originals so "losing a few months of memories" isn't accurate

u/Calsem [+1] (a day later)

Saying their entire existance is destroyed is only technically true. Realistically, you just miss out on a couple months spent in the loop.

You're making a distinction between copies (soul in loop and soul outside) when they are virtually identical. There is technically a difference but it does not matter. For example, let's say you write up an essay, then re-write it word-for-word 100 times. Technically they are all different essays with slightly different typos in each but they are all basically the same thing.

It is different for marked people because they remember their loops. Like I said before, if the marked people are not saved they lose years worth of memories, as opposed to just a few months.

u/GoXDS [+1] (a day later)

that's different because you care more about the concept/essence of the essay. copies are much more physical.

it's not like you can say 2 laptops of the same model are the same laptop. you can only really say they're the same model

also, the difference is 6 months vs 1 month only

u/Calsem [+1] (a day later)

But from a practical standpoint 2 laptops of the same model are the same laptop. I could buy either one.

6 months vs 1 month? The loop lasts 3 months, right? And marked people can remain marked throughout all the loops? I might not be understanding the marking correctly.

u/GoXDS [+1] (a day later)

the loops lasts one month each. even says so in the synopsis, nvm tons of reminders throughout the story =P how'd you forget

/shrug/ very different philosophy. even the Guardian doesn't wholly agree. accepts killing a month divergence but doesn't disagree to swapping non-diverged (after hesitation) but would still refuse to do so (implying it does think there's an intrinsic difference but has to hand-wave it away to justify the system's existence morally). nevermind that this is on a whole other scale (life)

what's the difference between a 1 month diverged copy with an original and a laptop that's been used for one hour and a fresh one of the same model?

or, back-tracking back to the very first comment I replied to,

They can't save the normal people whose soul resets each loop

you, yourself, imply they are savable and you said

To save a life implies that you are preventing someone from dying.

so, unless I'm totally wrong in what I think you meant by save in that first comment, your comment implies there is a difference, morally

u/Calsem [+1] (a day later)

the loops lasts one month each. even says so in the synopsis, nvm tons of reminders throughout the story =P how'd you forget

I read fast, so my reading comprehension suffers at times :/ Thanks for the catch.

/shrug/ very different philosophy. even the Guardian doesn't wholly agree. accepts killing a month divergence but doesn't disagree to swapping non-diverged (after hesitation) but would still refuse to do so (implying it does think there's an intrinsic difference but has to hand-wave it away to justify the system's existence morally). nevermind that this is on a whole other scale (life)

I think we both agree that the marked are different then their non-loop counterparts. Hence why they should try to save them.

The normal people are technically different too, but you can't save all of them so it's not worth debating over.

u/GoXDS [+1] (a day later)

that's what I meant by "not really" in my first comment. I don't think they're morally obligated to save them since it's practically impossible

at least, for the ones already created. preventing further creation and thus destruction is possible once they found a way out but I don't really have an answer to that (and only something I thought of while having this discussion Lol)

u/xland44 [+1] (a day later)

What I wonder is, does it change the mana costs per iteration in a significant amount?

u/Iwasahipsterbefore [+3] (a day later)

Honestly my only problen with this fantastic story is that zorian has only been doing this for around 6 years. If 6 years of hard work is all it takes to become an archmage, why aren't there more archmages? Admittedly it's 6 years with nigh unlimited resources, and the ability to take stupid risks over and over, but from the first problem I'd expect any rich kid to be super strong.

u/GoXDS [+6] (2 days later)

nigh unlimited resources is a lot. lower profile (as well as not taught by rival teachers) gets more people willing to teach them as Zorian was told. being able to renegade on apprenticeships makes a huge difference. mentality, work ethic, etc. shouldn't be overestimated in commonness. Mind Magic helps a great deal. his dire situation helps a lot. time looping to gives him a ton more advantages like giving same person blueprints to improve on, knowing where and when something happens, and more

I think you're underselling by far the uniqueness and utility of the time loop in helping advance Zorian's abilities

u/None [+2] (a day later)

Did ZZ take only Crown and Dagger from the defeated lich? I bet he had a lot of other cool loot on him.

u/suddenserendipity [+1] (a day later)

My question after reading this chapter: if they now have the ability to soulkill and place markers, can they remove the soulkill markers and bring back the Cyoria web? I don't remember enough about their abilities to judge how helpful they would be but it surely couldn't hurt, and as long as Z&Z are getting the gang all together for time loop shenanigans...

u/I-want-pulao [+3] (a day later)

Nope, the Guardian of the Threshold confirmed that soulkill is permanent (for the duration of the loops). There was some snark about how the controller should be careful with this ability

u/suddenserendipity [+1] (a day later)

Ach, that's unfortunate. I was hoping we could see some of our original old spider friends again

u/I-want-pulao [+1] (2 days later)

Now that we are close to breaking out, we will see them in the actual world!

u/Dhampire [+1] (2 days later)

Does anyone else believe that the Arm is going to be a permanent loss?

u/Charlie___ [+4] (2 days later)

Nah, not likely if they can come back from the dead. See https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/8mmdf8/rt_hf_mother_of_learning_chapter_85_critical_mass/dzp0eha/

u/IllustriousMight [+1] (16 days later)

Also since he was hit with a beam that killed him on a previous occasion and not been permanently affected this would cause a continuity error.

u/bassicallyboss [+1] (3 days later)

Wait, I thought that having more people in the time loop was one contributing reason to why they had a much shorter total in-loop time than the Ikosian Emperors used to have. In that case, bringing in a bunch of additional loopers would mean a large reduction in their remaining time, wouldn't it? Or maybe I'm just not remembering that right.

u/eSPiaLx [+1] (5 days later)

nah preserving an extra soul across restarts would actually save energy versus the regular process of destroying and completely recreating the soul

u/bassicallyboss [+1] (5 days later)

Maybe. Recreating is going to be a copy-construction either way, so it probably takes the same amount of energy with any (non-null) input. And destroying seems like something that wouldn't take energy--no need to wipe things clean if you're going to overwrite every part of it, after all. And in any case, from Zorian's description about anchoring dimensions to bags, it sounds like pocket dimensions might be unstable configurations anyway, and energy could even be harvested from their destruction.

I was sort of figuring a situation where the end of loop just plucks out all marked individuals, destroys the old pocket universe, creates a new one, and moves the old souls into the new one. It is weird that transferring the souls would be a non-negligible operation in all that, but nevertheless I have a vague inkilng that something like that was mentioned.

u/therealflinchy [+1] (6 days later)

Ooooh boy what an ending

Stupid long wait between chapters..

u/qabadai [+1] (6 days later)

Can someone help me out. I binged through this a while ago and last time I caught up was around the time he met his brother across the world. Does anyone know what chapter that was?

u/Xtraordinaire [+2] Team Glimglam (6 days later)

That would be around ch 66

u/qabadai [+1] (6 days later)

Ooh, lots to read then, thanks!

u/letouriste1 [+1] (7 days later)

wtf??? is this where everyone is? 300+ comments when there is less than half of that of votes on topwebfictions and the MoL sub reddit only has a few guys...

u/Xtraordinaire [+1] Team Glimglam (8 days later)

Pretty much. MoL updates every 3-4 weeks, it's not enough content to fuel a lively subreddit.

u/letouriste1 [+1] (8 days later)

that's sad:/ anywhere else people talk about this novel? (i know about spacebattles forum)

u/Xtraordinaire [+1] Team Glimglam (8 days later)

I know r/noveltranslations has some discussions, but not like here. Other than that, no, I'm not aware of any.

u/letouriste1 [+1] (9 days later)

ok:) thanks

u/rtsynk [+1] (14 days later)

next loop todo:

• find the staff

• contact 2 other pocket dimension mages that QI told them about

• more study of blood magic and enhancement rituals to assist in learning dimensional magic (especially for Zach)

• learn soul magic from QI (seems incredibly dangerous?)

• utilize black room to increase their study time for dimensional/soul/blood magic

• another vault robbery with QI (don't try to kill him this time?)

• try new tactics to get ring

• get Kael governmental support

• find something productive for all the other people they brought in to do?

• acquire pet hydra

• study hydra further to learn how to synchronize himself with his simulacrums

u/IllustriousMight [+1] (16 days later)

-Start to test magic calculators and perception modifiers on simulacrums. -Finally, convince Zach to get himself checked for further mental tampering -Locate more money/treasure for acquisition once out of time loop. -Start building a plan for what to do once out of the time loop -Let Zach find Tesen and drop him in a volcano - he needs to blow off steam

u/TheTheos [+1] (3 hours later)

I hope I'm wrong, but I think Zorian wont get his arm restored. QI attack coudn't have been so simple. So it might've fucked up his soul arm or smth.

u/GoXDS [+29] (5 hours later)

it's not a soul attack... those are slow

and they've been hit and killed by the red laser attacks before already. nor do souls work like that

u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (a day later)

QI attack coudn't have been so simple.

Sure it could. He was lashing out to keep Zorian out of his head.

There is no way that Zorian won't get his arm back, since even total removal of the aranean souls didn't affect their bodies.

u/Menolith [+2] Unworthy Opponent (20 hours later)

Zorian with a golem arm would be amazing though, but that's probably not happening yet.

Zorian is passably good at soul magic, so he definitely should have noticed after waking up if his soul was missing phantom limbs.

u/None [+2] (10 hours later)

I 💯 agree. Zorian was distracted, so QI had the time to cast soul magic. QI knew soul magic affected them due to the scars on their souls. The beam that hits Zorian didn't hit Zach which would trigger a reset. The beam that hit Zorian was mentioned distinctly from the disintegration beams. QI has excellent aim with his disintegration beams so it makes sense that if his aim was a little off it's a different attack. It was QIs last attack before he abandoned his body and those have been soul attacks in the past.

Narratively, it kicks QIs threat level up a notch since he would be able to permanently kill Zorian and maybe Zach. Additionally it's such a esoteric attack that it might be unique to QI and he will be much more interested in ZZ next time the meet.

Zorian is going to be very sad when he wakes up and his arm doesn't work.

u/GoXDS [+5] (18 hours later)

it's highly unlikely. QI did not have that much luxury to cast a slow attack like a soul attack while being assaulted heavily by mind magic. disintegration beam attacks have been described as simply "jagged red beams" (CH60, Ch24, etc) (or Ch4 when Zach had to dodge a red ray). a millenium old lich with proficiency in a multitude of magics to the highest degree is going to have bad aim, especially with soul magic when he's a necromancer?

souls are also not suffused and directly inhabiting different parts of the body. and Zorian would know and feel that it was a soul attack

and QI has no reason to be using a slow Soul attack vs a quicker normal attack in this loop. just because Z&Z have soul scars doesn't make it a better option. who doesn't soul magic work on? and normal magic would work just as well with the information he has this time

u/TheTheos [+3] (11 hours later)

Or it's even worse - QI mangled his arm in order to hide him putting his own soul mark on Zorian. And then in the next restart when QI notices his own soul mark on Zorian shit is going to hit the fan.

u/None [+1] (3 hours later)

[deleted]

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+17] Father of Learning (4 hours later)

In this case, the Guardian shouldn't care, since overwriting the soul is a normal function.

It's explicitly stated it's not. The controller is real, everyone else is a copy, and overwriting a soul goes against the whole purpose of the guardian

u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+8] (4 hours later)

There's no reason to posit that it extracts the soul of the controller.

They didn't posit this, they were literally told this by the Guardian.

u/GoXDS [+2] (5 hours later)

then you forgot that the Controller's soul is explicitly taken out. this is not an assumption

u/None [-3] (an hour later)

[deleted]

u/JusticeBeak [+17] (an hour later)

I don't think they have the staff yet, all they have is the password to a bakora gate on Blantyrre.

u/theelbandito [+4] (3 hours later)

But, do they actually have the password to the bakora gate on Blantyre?

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+16] Father of Learning (4 hours later)

Ya know, it cut out before they said if they succeeded or not, so probably, but they could have just had a stroke, forgotten about it, and gated back to Cyoria.

u/melmonella [+1] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (10 hours later)

Even if they do not, they will in the next restart. They know which lizard king to contact now, and could probably shave off some travel time too with the knowledge they gained regarding possible problems with the air ship and navigation issues.

u/sicutumbo [+8] (2 hours later)

They don't have all of them, notably the staff, and they didn't get the ring in this restart. They have to get all the Keys at once as well, so they will need to fight QI and the priest guy in the same restart.

u/DerSaidin [+3] (3 hours later)

As everyone else said, they don't have them all yet, but it is now looking doable. But they won't have the luxury of many repeats to get it all right.

u/theelbandito [+2] (2 hours later)

They still need to find and retrieve the Staff.

u/sleepy_holl0w [+1] (4 years later)

Just started book 2. Does zorian have a soul storage for bringing back stuff from previous loop

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