25 KiB
competent agencyful female protagonists with rationality growth arcs?
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Author: u/tjhance *
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URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/8ojqm0/competent_agencyful_female_protagonists_with/
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Score: 50
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Created: 2018-06-04T18:41:27
Post:
So I really like character arcs where someone is pretty smart, tries to be rational, realizes it's really hard, struggles, eventually gets better at rationality and pulls through in the end. Also, they grow as a person, and stuff.
For example, I like Red from origin of species (goes out into the world, finds research is really hard, but slowly makes some progress) HJPEV (totally OP, but still makes a bunch of screwups, not sure if he really fits this criteria or not) or the characters in Animorphs: The Reckoning (really bright kids, but man they are way out of their depth).
I also really like female protagonists, but I can't really think of any stories that fit this mold with female protagonists. I loved Worm (although it's not about rationality), I thought Time Braid was decent (character was too OP though). I tried Practical Guide to Evil but unfortunately couldn't get into it.
Any other recs?
Comments:
u/DaystarEld [+35] Pokémon Professor (15 minutes later)
Have you read Luminosity? I enjoyed it quite a lot.
http://luminous.elcenia.com/chapters/ch1.shtml
Edit: Aaaand now I'm rereading it, apparently... Guess I was due.
u/tjhance [+7] (20 minutes later)
oh, yeah, actually i have! I liked it.
u/MaxGabriel [+6] (4 hours later)
How about the sequel, Radiance?
u/thrawnca [+8] Carbon-based biped (14 hours later)
Radiance is pretty much required reading
Its biggest flaw, in my recollection, is that it violates the Unspoken Plan Guarantee. Even in a rational story, there are good artistic reasons for that. Still a fun read.
u/aeropkaef [+5] (9 hours later)
Would you recommend this to someone who has never seen or read anything Twilight?
u/derefr [+12] (9 hours later)
I read Luminosity while never having seen or read anything Twilight. The story works perfectly well standalone IMHO.
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+3] Dai-Gurren Brigade (4 days later)
Knowing a little about Twilight and having read its first few chapters (before giving up) I could appreciate the occasional jab here and there, like Luminosity's Bella being actually nice to her dad who bought her a car rather than an annoying spoiled brat like in the original ahem.
That said, it probably works full well without, and it made me often wonder how much of the world building was pulled from Twilight and how much was just made up for the fanfiction.
u/thrawnca [+7] Carbon-based biped (17 hours later)
I've recommended it to my sister-in-law who refuses to read Twilight because she dislikes the idea of a weak female protagonist.
u/None [+3] (22 hours later)
Personally I would recommend watching the Twilight movies first, but only if you enjoy watching bad movies ironically.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (4 days later)
Why would you recommend watching bad movies? Just for the contrast?
u/None [+3] (4 days later)
Because they're bad in a hilarious way. And they provide context as a free bonus.
u/DaystarEld [+2] Pokémon Professor (22 hours later)
I would!
u/None [+38] (an hour later)
Practical Guide is a bit hard to get into but you gotta stick with it, it gets much better as the author gets better at writing.
u/budding_botanist [+20] (7 hours later)
I second a Practical Guide to Evil. It can be rough, but I have enjoyed all of it nonetheless, and the chapter headers have me laughing out loud all the time. It also seems to have an arc in mind, progress is regular, and shit is really going down.
Although I'm pretty sure Catherine is just going to be killing the entire continent eventually.
u/melmonella [+4] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (18 hours later)
Don't listen to these slanderers, Practical Guide is awesome. One of the best rational stories posted here.
u/FlameDragonSlayer [+10] (19 hours later)
It's probably the least rational story posted here. I never really saw Catherine make any rational decisions, all she does is luck her way out of one bad situation into a worse one. There is not a shred of rationality in Cat.
u/Flashbunny [+10] (a day later)
The fact that Cat makes bad decisions does not preclude the story from being rational. Every character makes believable decisions, and the world responds according to consistent rules etc. As you say, Cat's poor decision making often lands her in worse situations.
u/Croktopus [+2] (2 days later)
plus she is starting to learn! she's shown a lot of growth
u/Ozryela [+4] (3 days later)
Probably an impopular opinion, but what really puts me off on Practical Guide to Evil is the huge number of spelling and grammar errors, which the author doesn't seem to care about at all.
It's not that the author doesn't have perfect spelling. That's fine. But every chapter there are people in the comments pointing out all the mistakes, and they never get fixed.
If the author cares so little about their own story, why should I?
u/I_Probably_Think [+4] (7 days later)
I seem to recall that the author intends to publish and having an edited version available for free would cause problems somehow, so leaving the errors in uncorrected is absolutely intentional. This knowledge somehow does help me be more tolerant of the technical errors!
u/None [+2] (3 days later)
Have you ever written a 1k word essay and still missed several typos? This guy is writing (roughly) twenty-nine page chapters (5k words or more), and he doesn't have an editor to catch the mistakes. Can't really blame him.
u/Ozryela [+5] (4 days later)
Read what I wrote. I don't blame him for making mistakes. That's entirely natural.
Fixing typos is not the job of an author anyway, it's the job of an editor. So get one. I'm sure there's dozens of fans of the story who'd gladly do it for free.
Like I said, every chapter there's people carefully listing all the mistakes in the comments. But the author never bothers to fix any of them. It shows they don't care about their own story, at all. And that's rather offputting.
u/tjhance [+1] (3 days later)
i recently laid out my thoughts on the beginning of PGtE in this comment and from the responses decided not to continue
u/GlueBoy [+3] anti-skub (3 days later)
The worst part of PGTE is that the author refuses to use "she said", and instead uses some completely stupid replacements for that, like "she grunted", "she groaned" "she shouted" and so on. Once you notice it becomes very distracting.
u/tjhance [+1] (3 days later)
this reminds me, I also noticed that it tends to repeatedly refer to people by their physical descriptors (e.g., "the green-eyed man")
It's not why I put it down but it did annoy me a bit
u/alexeyr [+1] Steersman (6 days later)
Gravelled. All. The. Time. (Still reading it.)
u/Tinac4 [+35] (55 minutes later)
You might like Strong Female Protagonist, an ongoing webcomic. A large portion of it revolves around some of the real-world implications of superpowers (not as well as Worm, but it does a decent job), and it features a mostly rational but flawed protagonist. There’s already been a decent amount of character development, with the MC coming to terms earlier on with the fact that not all of the world’s problems can be solved by punching them in the face—though more development will likely happen in the future. SFP has its flaws, but on the whole, I would recommend it.
u/narfanator [+9] (10 hours later)
SFP is one of my favorite pieces of content, ever. It frequently has some of the best philosophical dialogues I've ever encountered - enough so that I went and printed some of them to put up as posters!
Highly recommend, on all levels.
u/fortycakes [+15] (an hour later)
Have you read The Arithmancer? It doesn't have a rationality arc but it does have a focus on Hermione as a maths genius and how that affects canon HP unfolding.
u/melmonella [+8] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (an hour later)
I've dropped it after a while. Hermione was making too many dumb moves for me to keep taking her seriously.
u/Evan_Th [+4] Sunshine Regiment (6 hours later)
Such as? She definitely wasn't perfect, but I think that's her being a believable teenager.
u/melmonella [+11] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (15 hours later)
It's mostly from the sequel I guess, first book was okay. I dropped it after she went to her parents saying "Guys there are literal wizard Nazis going around, and I am pretty much definitely their Target Number 2, so get the hell out of dodge out of England immediately, and by immediately I mean ideally yesterday" and her parents said "Oh but it'd be too awkward to do it this fast" and she was all "Oh okay it'd be too awkward to press the issue so I'll just accept this"
And then her parents died, predictably.
u/TwoxMachina [+9] (18 hours later)
Umm, you should read further, if there is where you stopped. There's a twist.
!They didn't die, it's a gambit.!<
In fact, closer to the end, she stops being, "Oh, I can't kill anyone" and finally kills off some DE.
I was really frustrated with her, where she keeps letting DE go after beating them, so that that really cathartic for me.
u/melmonella [+1] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (21 hours later)
It wasn't the only problem I had, just the biggest one I remembered.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (a month later)
You know, I felt like dropping it at the same place? I think I did ignore it for a while.
And then
I keep getting notifications from ff.net, but I haven't actually gone back to it in months.
I agree that the first book was decent and worth a read. The first Triwizard task was great.
u/tobias3 [+5] (a day later)
Last I read she was spoiler Granted, it would be a pretty boring story otherwise, I guess.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (14 hours later)
The Arithmancer was good. Didn't make my favorites list, but I'm glad to have come across it. Sequel is too Mary Sue though IMO.
u/Croktopus [+1] (2 days later)
I'd say they both are. The complaint a lot of people have about HPMOR where he's too good at everything and never loses is actually true in the Arithmancer/Lady Archimedes.
u/OutOfNiceUsernames [+14] fear of last pages (6 hours later)
- Flicker from Doc Future trilogy — she’s not rational, she’s impulsive, and both she and others close to her are aware of that trait of her personality. Throughout the story she often tries very hard to find out what should be the correct decisions to make, to listen to the opinions of others, and to learn to control her impulsivity.
- Ami from DK Ami — matches the request criteria weaker for several reasons: 1) the story’s more focused on munchkining the universe she ended up than on building herself into a more rational character 2) the story as a whole gets a bit penalised as a rational story because the whole character set is zombified at times due to several recurring tropes (fanservice, NotEvilJustMisunderstood).
- Time Braid — though it’s more like the circumstances force her into becoming into a more reasonable person rather than she deliberately decides to start improving herself from the beginning.
u/9000948 [+6] (a day later)
The Doc Future trilogy is absolutely excellent. I don't know how rational it would qualify as, but all the characters tend to act as believable things, and don't do stupid things for no reason.
As a piece of fiction, it is brilliant. It is the only work of fiction I know which shows how ridiculous super speed should be as a super power.
u/tjhance [+3] (6 hours later)
yeah I have read Time Braid. I really liked the beginning especially, when she starts as a noob and figures shit out, for basically exactly this reason. Thanks for your other suggestions!
u/rumblestiltsken [+7] (a day later)
If you like time braid but don't like how op they get, try Kill Your Heroes by Evil Is A Relative Term. Not quite finished but getting close. Might be the best Sakura fic I've read, and I love time braid.
Sakura is pretty much rational in it, allowing for psychological trauma bad decisions. Not truly a rationalist fic though.
u/waylandertheslayer [+1] (5 days later)
I also highly recommend Trial by Ninja, another Sakura story where her nemesis is Kabuto. I actually preferred it to Five Kingdoms for the Dead and rate it roughly level with Kill Your Heroes.
u/Wiron [+13] (3 hours later)
Most stories by rationalist writer Forthwith fit the criteria. The Moon's Apprentice is the biggest one and already finished. If you don't want to jump straight into 400k words story then short story Twin Twilights serves as good introduction to the main character.
Harry and Hermione Starring in: The Digital Revolution is current project and it's regularly updated.
u/DTravers [+3] (20 hours later)
I was disappointed in TMA's ending after what the opening and middle promised. I expected if not the War of the Heavens Mk. 2, then at least some sort of coup. Instead the ruler just says "okay bye" and all the drama vanishes with her.
u/Nighzmarquls [+5] (a day later)
I feel like although the drama suffers for it this is a very rational ending when all parties are intelligent and not mutually opposed at a fundamental level.
u/DraggonZ [+1] (2 days later)
Do I need to know anything about "My Little Pony" to understand and enjoy "The Moon's Apprentice"?
u/Wiron [+3] (3 days later)
Yes, it requires knowledge of the show. If you want to read story that doesn't need it I recommend Days of Wasp and Spider or Friendship is Optimal
u/WalterTFD [+22] (an hour later)
I write The Fifth Defiance (link -> https://thefifthdefiance.com/ )
I dunno if it quite fits your criteria. 3/5 of the protagonists (and the main antagonist) are women, and they strive to be rational to the extent that it helps them achieve their goals. Things are still up in the air re: their success though.
I dunno, you might like it, you might not.
u/Kachajal [+16] (an hour later)
I've read through maybe half of it in one sitting a while back on SV, and I was surprised at the lack of love it was getting there. I think it is absolutely excellent.
I simply adore the way you write your characters, it feels extremely true to life for me, and very believable. I found it a bit scary how well I could relate to the immortal, immoral scientist lady - the way you write her thought process mirrors mine pretty damn closely (aside from the complete lack of understanding of morality, of course).
However, almost every one of the characters had a moment where I thought you showed a lot of insight into how people think (or perhaps it's just that I agree with the way you see things). I highly recommend this story.
u/WalterTFD [+2] (a day later)
Thanks for the feedback! I really appreciate your praise. I hope you enjoy the rest.
u/thrawnca [+10] Carbon-based biped (14 hours later)
I'm taking the Lemony Snicket Warning and walking away, but good luck with it.
u/Bowbreaker [+5] Solitary Locust (15 hours later)
What's a Lemony Snicket warning?
u/thrawnca [+14] Carbon-based biped (15 hours later)
It's when the author tells you, "this story will do horrible things to good people, you might want to stop now."
u/tjhance [+2] (6 hours later)
Thanks! I liked the first chapter, I'll give it a try.
u/mcherm [+2] (a day later)
I hadn't heard of this one before. I tried it and now I'm hooked. Next time I mess with my patreon settings I'll probably have to add you. Anyway, thanks for pointing it out.
u/WalterTFD [+2] (a day later)
I don't have a patreon, but don't worry about it. I hope you enjoy the story.
u/ErastosValentin [+11] (10 hours later)
Are you aware that the sequel to Worm, Ward started late last year? New (also female) protagonist, radically reshaped world, currently fairly early in the "struggles" phase and knowing Wildbow "pulls through in the end" might turn out to be a little too optimistic. There's also a bridging arc that's been added to Worm called Glow-worm. Not strictly essential to understand Ward, but there's some interesting stuff in there.
u/Charlie___ [+8] (4 hours later)
Read The Steerswoman's Road series. Middle book (The Lost Steersman) is the best.
u/tigrennatenn [+1] (11 hours later)
Ugh, that series is so good, and it's also so never going to be finished :-(
u/LazarusRises [+7] (12 hours later)
It may not fit your criteria 100%, but one of the most rational protags I've ever seen in media is Mary Elizabeth Winstead's character in 10 Cloverfield Lane. She's extremely clever & competent and makes exactly zero of the stupid mistakes that horror movie protags usually love so much. I guess minor thematic spoilers ahead.
It's not a story about improving the rationality of her worldview, but it is very much about developing strategies to defeat a physically superior, intellectually equal opponent on his home ground. Each tactic can only hope to work once, and each new thing she tries makes it less likely for the next one to work.
It's also a straight-up awesome movie.
u/Nighzmarquls [+6] (7 hours later)
I'll plug my current work. Onward to Providence Although the character growth is going to be a bit slow going.
There is going to be a lot of "actually being rational/ doing things is hard".
That said the "main" character is not actually as smart/ competent as she thinks she is and a lot of the growth is going to be learning to be better at things and not trying to be everything at once.
So might not be your cup of tea. I'm also taking stuff a bit slow to let the custom setting sink in for the audience and avoid infodumping for pages and pages. So it might take a while to get to what you'd call the "good stuff" in this case.
u/neondragonfire [+7] (a day later)
Honor Among Thieves. Apparently also the Honor Harrington series which that fanfic was based on, but I have not read the original canon, so I can't be sure.
Harem Herbalist. Note that this is not a harem in the sense of a group of women inexplicably fawning over an unremarkable protagonist, but a part of a palace reserved for women. Where while women technically all can be called on by the Emperor, few ever will. And there is a lot of politics based on who is favoured by said Emperor, who the women might be married off to or in love with, poisonings and so on.
Athena Wheatley. Though you have to go through a lot of weirdness before it all starts to make sense.
aaaand Unicorn Jelly. With sort-of sequels To Save Her and Pastel Defender Heliotrope. It may start a bit slow, but it's seriously one of the most amazing examples of world-building you'll find.
u/9000948 [+3] (a day later)
Ok, Muzzled the Musical is actually awesome. Did not expect that
u/PeridexisErrant [+2] put aside fear for courage, and death for life (3 days later)
I'll cheerfully second Honor Among Thieves, which in my view is substantially better than the originals. There's plenty of fan music for the canon series available too - search for "harrington filk" and, uh, it's certainly a thing.
Canon basically had two problems: it starts as a straight "Horatio Hornblower in SPAAACE", and then devolves into endless sequels and no resolution. The latter problem is obvious; the former mires the setting in a late-20th-c interpretation of mid-20th-c stereotypes about early-19th-c imperial politics and society. If you want British naval tropes plus a clear love of orbital mechanics, Webster delivers; if you want the human part of the setting to be interesting I'd recommend something else. If you want a story arc, as above, read Honor among Thieves.
u/Daniel_The_Thinker [+5] (2 hours later)
If you play video games, you would like Aloy from Horizon Zero Dawn.
She's highly intelligent and independent
u/the_rose_remembers [+4] (4 days later)
The Tiffany Aching sub-sequence of Discworld is amazing. The protagonist does not practice "rationality" in the HJPEV sense of "figure out the rules of magic and exploit them", but does in the real-world sense of "take actions that will lead to your goals being achieved".
Part of the reason she improves is that she starts out at 9 and ends up at ~17.
u/PeridexisErrant [+3] put aside fear for courage, and death for life (3 days later)
Tact, a Pride and Prejudice fic where Elizabeth Bennet has some. Beautifully written, and the characterization presents everyone at their best without simply fixing their problems.
Period romance obviously, but with a decent treatment of gender roles.
u/HPMOR_fan [+2] (7 hours later)
I'm not aware of any that fit your requirements exactly, but you may enjoy these.
Branches of the Tree of Time (short) - a modified Sarah Connor from Terminator is the protagonist, but starts out rational.
Bluer Shade of White (short) - Disney's Frozen - Elsa is the protagonist though she is not the most rational character in the story.
Taint and Trials - https://lsdell.com/table-of-contents/ - both unfinished. I'd say they are rational friendly but not rational. In Trials the protagonist is a man reborn in a woman's body so don't know if it counts. I find Taint very enjoyable.
Mother of Learning and the Good Student are great but male.
u/SimoneNonvelodico [+2] Dai-Gurren Brigade (4 days later)
I can do a bit of shameless self promotion and advertise my Optimised Wish Project:
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12863641/1/The-Optimised-Wish-Project
It's a work in progress rational Dragon Ball fanfic, and Bulma is so front-and-center in it you may as well say she's basically the protagonist, with Goku as a co-protagonist. I'm going for a pretty humorous tone so I don't know if it'd fit your bill for a growth arc though; she's pretty flawed and some of those flaws may actually get worse, but she's certainly got a lot of agency.
u/lost_dm [+3] (8 hours later)
Worm is awesome, you should give it a try :)