170 KiB
[D] Offering Bounties for Breaking My Magic System
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Author: u/-Vecht- Legacy of the Goddess*
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URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/8v6ckz/d_offering_bounties_for_breaking_my_magic_system/
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Score: 71
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Created: 2018-07-01T00:49:15
Post:
Bounties!
(Note: This post was cleared this with mods ahead of time.)
I am offering bounties for useful / fun / novel / setting-breaking ideas with regards to magic in a setting I am developing for a Rationalist Quest. Specifically, if I judge your idea to be useful to me, it gives me new ideas for filling out idiosyncratic details of the setting's cultures, or it otherwise helps me get closer to ironing out potential issues in a way I haven't yet considered, I will pay you $5 via Paypal or Venmo (will ask for details via pm), or 1 month of Reddit Gold if you prefer. If you also offer a good fix for setting-breaking ideas that maintains the desired setting, I will pay you $15 (additional, if the accepted setting-breaking idea was yours).
The level of consistency and detail I am aiming for here is somewhere between "would not be out of place in a Brandon Sanderson novel" and "you can do some physics to it without it immediately breaking everything." While there isn't a meaningful limit to the number of ideas I will accept, I have a rather high bar for acceptance criteria, and have already put a great deal of thought into this myself. If your idea does not clearly state assumptions and include significant critical analysis, it probably won't be accepted.
Of course, I am only one person, and I will never have it said that I--a mere mortal (for now)--thought myself above the capabilities of a veritable horde of rationalist munchkins. Hence this post. I would much prefer to get most of this out of the way so I can account for it in world-building rather than having players break it later.
Additional Note: I will be omitting most of the details of the setting and mechanics for hopefully obvious reasons, including only information I expect to give players near the start of the Quest, which is also roughly what an average person that is particularly knowledgeable of magic would have access to.
Details have been removed to prevent future metagaming. Sorry!
In general, any information from this post or any information recorded in comments should not be considered canon, or even particularly reliable. Things have changed over the course of revision and additional worldbuilding.
Cutoff Reached:
Thank you all for your contributions! This succeeded harder than I imagined it would, and has become immensely difficult to keep up with. I will still try and respond to new replies and award bounties, but I'm not going to be able to reliably answer clarification questions and probably won't respond otherwise unless your idea is particularly compelling.
Comments:
u/Frommerman [+28] (4 hours later)
If I understood Energy Burst properly, a Prismatic mage should be able to make solid objects which disintegrate when forced or dismissed by essentially creating kinetic energy force fields in whatever shape they want. Such objects would be mostly useless for all direct purposes, of course. An average punch contains around 150 joules, so making armor or weapons will rapidly exhaust the mage's mana supplies and render them ordinary not-elves again.
However, using such objects as industrial molds should be trivial. The force field only cares about repelling whatever material you pour into it, so molten metals can be contained as easily as any other liquid of similar density. A rank novice with a 20 MP cap can create a mold which will withstand 2,000 J of force before shattering, which is quite a lot when all you need to do is keep an otherwise stationary fluid in place until it cools enough to be self-supporting. This allows Prismatic mages to create arbitrary objects out of any metal this civilization has the capacity to melt, limited only by their capacity to hold the details of these objects in mind while creating the form.
Assuming mundane mathematics exists in this world, much of the limitation in imagination can be mitigated by meditating on the set of equations which define your object, rather than mentally simulating the object directly. However, that isn't the really important bit. The hardest part of setting up heavy industry isn't having the idea of an automated loom, it's having the technology to create sturdy enough parts to create such a machine which will hold up to wear. DaVinci had sketches of bicycles, but the first ones weren't created until the 19th century. This is because we couldn't translate the parts DaVinci imagined into reality with enough fidelity to make a bike which actually worked, and because we didn't have enough good steel lying around to make the idea practical until then.
With Prismatic Energy Burst Forging, the imagination-to-reality gap is gone. Precision forging of small, detailed pieces for intricate machines becomes easy the moment you have a machine-worthy alloy. In fact, smaller pieces are even easier to create than larger ones, as the metal involved will require less force to shape into the required form. The only hard limitation on the intricacy of machines is the intricacy of the most complicated part, and once someone has the idea to start mass-producing screws and other fasteners, even that goes by the wayside. Any part which could be broken down into simpler parts becomes easy to produce. The only limitations on the development of industry become metallurgy and the number of Prismatic mages available. That sounds like a real limit, until the first Prismatic mage starts making precision tools to replicate what they can do with force field molds. Precise lathes and other metal-shaping devices would allow normals to start creating replacement parts for machines, and once you have that, you have a full-on industrial revolution.
This trick also applies to the handling of any other fluid which humans don't want to handle directly. Glassblowing can be revolutionized by blowing the glass into a perfectly shaped mold which vanishes the moment the glass hardens. Poisonous gasses can be transferred between containers in perfect security by containing them in force field jars in the interim. Prismatic surgeons could make arbitrarily sharp scalpels and easily ligate bleeders all on their own, as it takes a relatively tiny amount of force to keep even a major artery closed.
Now that I think of it, the fact that no diseases exist means that trauma surgery should be far more advanced in this world than it would be in ours under the same circumstances, as you don't need to worry about the waste of resources involved in a "saved" patient dying of sepsis. Their wars against not-goblins should not leave thousands of crippled casualties behind, as civil-war-and-earlier battlefield amputations were overwhelmingly done to prevent infection, rather than to stop bleeding. Anyone who doesn't bleed to death should survive any battle wound, in the long run.
Just in general, a world with no disease will be so astoundingly different from our own that I'm not sure you can be reasonably expected to simulate it well enough to write a story with no plot holes, whether obvious or not. Food will either keep indefinitely or just become less nutritious over time as it breaks down, but you will always be able to eat it safely as long as no foodborne pathogens exist. Everyone should be drinking directly from rivers and streams, as without cholera and other waterborne pathogens, the impetus to create safer drinks like beer will not exist. Overpopulation will be solvable only through advances in technology increasing the amount of people you can feed with a given amount of land, war, or autocratic policies directly limiting the reproduction of the masses. In fact, this might be the major impetus behind repeated, failed campaigns against the not-goblins. Win or lose, a ton of peasants you couldn't feed are now dead. Insert conspiracy to repeatedly fail in conquering the ancestral homelands and/or prop up the occasional smart not-goblin warlord as long as possible to serve this purpose.
Screw the magic system, actually. No diseases is way more interesting.
u/sdmat [+9] (9 hours later)
A rank novice with a 20 MP cap can create a mold which will withstand 2,000 J of force before shattering
Since joules measure work rather than force the mold can actually be infinitely strong provided it doesn't do any work - i.e. if it doesn't change shape / move around while full, or otherwise create energy from nothing.
This is definitely exploitable with the right physics, for example making diamonds from graphite with an externally powered magical vise.
u/skairunner [+2] (3 days later)
Are you sure you didn't confuse joules (unit of energy) with watts (unit of work)?
u/sdmat [+5] (3 days later)
Yep, joules can measure both work and energy while watts measure power (the rate at which work is done / energy is transferred).
The way energy burst is specified joules are used as a unit of work ("100J change in physical energy per MP spent"). I.e. up to 100J can be magically transferred to the physical environment per MP. In a comment somewhere in this thread the OP mentions phrasing it that way after a discussion with their physics professor so presumably it's a deliberate choice.
u/skairunner [+2] (3 days later)
Ah, so the unabbreviated unit should be J/MP.
u/sdmat [+1] (3 days later)
Joules are fine here, it's just that the relationships between energy, work, and power are a bit counterintuitive.
u/-Vecht- [+5] Legacy of the Goddess (17 hours later)
u/Frommerman: Regarding your points about molds, I had to consult with my ex-physics professor co-QM about this one. He brought to my attention that the limits I specified on the ability was problematic. It is in fact total energy change to the environment that should be the limiter, so if you attempted to use Energy Burst to create molds in this way, they would be broken by the heat of the metals. Also, the forms don't last very long, and certainly not long enough to allow forging.
Thanks for your suggestion though, and I'll award a bounty to this for pointing out an issue that needed refinement. PM me with details or let me know if you prefer gold. (E: Donation.)
Regarding the disease stuff, this falls under setting-specific, so I won't be speaking to that.
u/Frommerman [+8] (23 hours later)
Give the bounty to the ACLU. They need it more than me right now.
Edit: I also realized I was making this way too hard. If Blue mages are allowed to manifest forms in the middle of a barrel of slightly molten candle wax or gallium or something, they can freeze themselves permanent objects around which ceramic molds could be formed. If they are only allowed to manifest objects in open air, they could do a sort of 3D printer impression by selectively freezing the surface and pulling the object out carefully. It would take a ton of skill, but they might be able to turn themselves into a primitive prototyping machine.
u/-Vecht- [+5] Legacy of the Goddess (a day later)
Give the bounty to the ACLU. They need it more than me right now.
Done.
u/ulyssessword [+10] (55 minutes later)
Imbue Object seems ripe for abuse.
Can a mage Imbue an object with enough power that it recharges itself in ~1 month, and has the ability to cast 'Imbue Object', passing on a lesser form of its abilities?
Is mana or time the main bottleneck for imbuing objects? If it's mana, then Siphon on captured enemies, willing apprentices (who would be useful even if they never get trained), or other self-charging objects (if they are a valid target) could speed up the creation process enough to unbalance things.
What are the limits on mana capacity for imbued objects? Can a mage spend five years pouring power into an object imbued with Energy Burst, then release it all at once to destroy a castle in a single blow?
Transformation is permanent (unless countered with Heal)? I see two strategies that make logistics easier for an army.
First, transform every soldier into a "normal" form, so that all equipment (armor, boots, etc.) is perfectly interchangeable. This can also replace physical conditioning if the mages are precise enough.
Second, if animals are a valid target, transform a cow into a mouse (spending ~1 hour to shrink it), carry it where you're going (and feed it over time), de-transform it, then eat it. Depending on how hard it is to do, this may only be useful for Special Forces.
This is probably just an artifact of your summary, but one joule of electricity is far deadlier than one joule of fire or water jets.
Telepathy can be heavily optimized through the use of code, although your familiarity/complexity costs may cover that already. "3-7" sounds simpler than "A force of approximately 100 goblin-things are currently traversing the North-East pass", but it conveys the same information.
u/-Vecht- [+5] Legacy of the Goddess (an hour later)
Imbue Object seems ripe for abuse.
Can a mage Imbue an object with enough power that it recharges itself in ~1 month, and has the ability to cast 'Imbue Object', passing on a lesser form of its abilities?
- It is theoretically possible (not known to be impossible) for a mage to imbue an object with enough power that it recharges itself in ~1 month, but this would take a staggering amount of magic
- Imbued objects can cast imbue object on other objects, but because of the minimum cost, you will lose efficiency with each step.
Is mana or time the main bottleneck for imbuing objects? If it's mana, then Siphon on captured enemies, willing apprentices (who would be useful even if they never get trained), or other self-charging objects (if they are a valid target) could speed up the creation process enough to unbalance things.
What are the limits on mana capacity for imbued objects? Can a mage spend five years pouring power into an object imbued with Energy Burst, then release it all at once to destroy a castle in a single blow?
Time and mana are both important, but we're talking order minutes for an expert mage to put all of their capacity into an object. I suppose Siphon could be used on someone using the Imbue Object ability, so there is definitely the possibility of gathering magic from enough sources via Siphon to put much greater magic into something than is otherwise possible. It isn't physically possible for someone to concentrate for 5 years, but...
If you can offer an analysis with reasonable numerical assumptions on Energy Burst that convinces me this is setting-breaking, it is worth $20 (extra because there's an easy fix).
Transformation is permanent (unless countered with Heal)? I see two strategies that make logistics easier for an army.
First, transform every soldier into a "normal" form, so that all equipment (armor, boots, etc.) is perfectly interchangeable. This can also replace physical conditioning if the mages are precise enough.
Second, if animals are a valid target, transform a cow into a mouse (spending ~1 hour to shrink it), carry it where you're going (and feed it over time), de-transform it, then eat it. Depending on how hard it is to do, this may only be useful for Special Forces.
This is a really neat idea and easily worth $5. :D
In general, mages this talented won't be abundant enough to make "normal form soldiery" standard practice.
Shrinking livestock for transport (or maybe to store in fortified locations overnight?) is really cool.
PM me details for payment.
E: Gold
This is probably just an artifact of your summary, but one joule of electricity is far deadlier than one joule of fire or water jets.
One joule of energy imparted. Even if it looks different, it's normalized.
Telepathy can be heavily optimized through the use of code, although your familiarity/complexity costs may cover that already. "3-7" sounds simpler than "A force of approximately 100 goblin-things are currently traversing the North-East pass", but it conveys the same information.
Yep. To speak more to complexity, it is measured by the relative frequency of words in the language you are using to communicate with the target. This means that using codes for cheaper transmission is indeed clever and effective, but not an idea I didn't already have.
u/RiOrius [+7] (an hour later)
Time and mana are both important, but we're talking order minutes for an expert mage to put all of their capacity into an object.
Wait, so if you get about 10% of your MP back per minute, an expert mage can dump all their MP into a new object every ten minutes, over and over? So for a four-hour work day I can crank out 24 wands? That seems super broken. At that point MP isn't even a limitation in a fight, because everyone has a bandolier of wands that they made the day before. And now your resource concerns aren't "I can only cast so many spells per day/combat" (per day already nuked by 10-minute regen time), but "I can only carry so many wands."
Especially if imbued objects can be used by non-wizards. In which case, wizards should never leave home. Just make wands.
One in a two hundred people is a trained wizard. So in just over eight days, everyone in the entire population can have a Wand of Healing. (okay fine, you need to be an advanced wizard to make wands and regen mana this quickly, so if you need to be in the top 10% of wizards to do this it takes society about three months to give everyone a magic item). I'm not sure that's what you want?
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (an hour later)
Wait, so if you get about 10% of your MP back per minute, an expert mage can dump all their MP into a new object every ten minutes, over and over? So for a four-hour work day I can crank out 24 wands? That seems super broken. At that point MP isn't even a limitation in a fight, because everyone has a bandolier of wands that they made the day before. And now your resource concerns aren't "I can only cast so many spells per day/combat" (per day already nuked by 10-minute regen time), but "I can only carry so many wands."
Especially if imbued objects can be used by non-wizards. In which case, wizards should never leave home. Just make wands.
One in a two hundred people is a trained wizard. So in just over eight days, everyone in the entire population can have a Wand of Healing. (okay fine, you need to be an advanced wizard to make wands and regen mana this quickly, so if you need to be in the top 10% of wizards to do this it takes society about three months to give everyone a magic item). I'm not sure that's what you want?
There is a significant upfront cost to Imbue Object (intentionally so) that I believe makes this infeasible; you get pretty strong diminishing returns by making wands. I suppose you could set an expert mage to mass-producing +5 hp potions or one-time-use campfire-starters, but I'm unconvinced that this is the best use of that mage's time, or that it would be particularly setting-breaking. If you don't immediately die from wounds, healing is going to be pretty plentiful anyway.
u/RiOrius [+7] (2 hours later)
If a 250MP archmage can make something worthwhile, and 13 novices with 20MP can team up with Siphon to make that same item, you still run into the same issue of being able to equip the entire population pretty frequently. So unless the only worthwhile magic items require teams of powerful wizards using Siphon, it still seems like magic item creation is easy.
Even taking into account that a novice would take 13 times as long, his Siphon buddies would be able to run in parallel with other crafters, since they're just limited by their MP regeneration rate.
u/-Vecht- [+2] Legacy of the Goddess (2 hours later)
If a 250MP archmage can make something worthwhile, and 13 novices with 20MP can team up with Siphon to make that same item, you still run into the same issue of being able to equip the entire population pretty frequently. So unless the only worthwhile magic items require teams of powerful wizards using Siphon, it still seems like magic item creation is easy.
Even taking into account that a novice would take 13 times as long, his Siphon buddies would be able to run in parallel with other crafters, since they're just limited by their MP regeneration rate
Okay, you've convinced me that magic gained from Siphon shouldn't be able to be used towards Imbue Object, only the user's base magic. I will offer you the $15 bounty and the $5 bounty to ulyssessword for initially pointing this out. PM me with details (or can do reddit gold as another person requested).
u/RiOrius [+11] (3 hours later)
Nah, don't worry about it: all I crave is sweet, sweet validation :)
u/TotesMessenger [+2] (4 hours later)
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u/ulyssessword [+4] (3 hours later)
If you can offer an analysis with reasonable numerical assumptions on Energy Burst that convinces me this is setting-breaking, it is worth $20 (extra because there's an easy fix).
Reading through the rest of your posts, I don't think that I can make a siege weapon anymore, the individual spells are too weak to pay for the overhead of imbuing an item. A handgun bullet, falling three feet, 1 cm^2 of third-degree burns, or a defibrillator charge is about 500 J, and a cannonball is about 1,250,000 J (2500x as much energy as a normal attack).
That being said, a magical Hwacha could serve as an expensive but deadly force-multiplier if loaded up with energy-projection wands.
This is a really neat idea and easily worth $5. :D [...] PM me details for payment.
I'll just go with a month of Gold, if that works for you.
u/-Vecht- [+2] Legacy of the Goddess (an hour later)
Oh, and only one actor can use Imbue Object on an object at a given time, so no storing tons of magic up in Imbue-object-imbuers then dumping them all into one object. After an object is imbued, it can't be re-imbued until it is inert.
u/AmeteurOpinions [+2] Finally, everyone was working together. (an hour later)
Well now you’re just adding more exploitability. You could create secure currency that can’t be counterfeited, or secure containers for important messages by using imbue object on it just to say “this has been imbued with the Royal Seal”. The fact that it was imbued is proof enough, it wouldn’t matter if the imbued object had any other abilities. Possibly not practical except for very large transactions or very important transmissions, but without a way to hack imbue object after it’s been placed there is a lot to work with.
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (an hour later)
Well now you’re just adding more exploitability. You could create secure currency that can’t be counterfeited, or secure containers for important messages by using imbue object on it just to say “this has been imbued with the Royal Seal”. The fact that it was imbued is proof enough, it wouldn’t matter if the imbued object had any other abilities. Possibly not practical except for very large transactions or very important transmissions, but without a way to hack imbue object after it’s been placed there is a lot to work with.
This wouldn't work because it would be trivial for anyone with enough magic to counterfeit. Imbue object must give it an ability plus some amount of magic, and there are only so many of those.
u/Flashbunny [+2] (14 hours later)
What about the ability "see what this was created by, and what iteration the creator is", so the ability returns "this was created by a Royal Seal, the 101st copy of such to exist", and just publicise which Royal Seal copies are valid and which are fraudulent.
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (19 hours later)
What about the ability "see what this was created by, and what iteration the creator is", so the ability returns "this was created by a Royal Seal, the 101st copy of such to exist", and just publicise which Royal Seal copies are valid and which are fraudulent.
This does not work.
u/vaegrim [+2] (17 hours later)
You could imbue a prismatic energy burst of extremely low MP cost, triggering a pulse of ultraviolet light. The Imbued coins will (slowly) recover their MP, and you'd only need to use it to verify coins during transactions.
This would be an "imbued object that imbues objects" thing. One of the kings, having a frustrating run in with counterfeiters decides to charge for 10 years to create The Royal Mint. The mint is an enormous stamping machine that casts Imbue Object>Energy Burst as previously described.
It's absolutely a revolutionary feat, but not an impossible one. It's exactly the kind of thing I'd expect a royal archmage to do in a fit of pique. This also creates a reason why a non-royal with prismatic affinity is socially dangerous, he can print money!
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (19 hours later)
You could imbue a prismatic energy burst of extremely low MP cost, triggering a pulse of ultraviolet light. The Imbued coins will (slowly) recover their MP, and you'd only need to use it to verify coins during transactions.
This would be an "imbued object that imbues objects" thing. One of the kings, having a frustrating run in with counterfeiters decides to charge for 10 years to create The Royal Mint. The mint is an enormous stamping machine that casts Imbue Object>Energy Burst as previously described.
It's absolutely a revolutionary feat, but not an impossible one. It's exactly the kind of thing I'd expect a royal archmage to do in a fit of pique. This also creates a reason why a non-royal with prismatic affinity is socially dangerous, he can print money!
I had to patch Imbue Object; it now decays over time, and there is not really any mechanism that would allow mere mortals to imbue something with enough magic to allow for this.
u/vaegrim [+1] (a day later)
I continued thinking about this a bit. Can a Prismatic Energy Burst charge something with MP directly? Prismatic bursts explicitly have no type limit, so presumably magical energy is a valid expression. Can't I use that to directly recharge Imbued Objects past their decay point?
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (a day later)
"Magical energy" isn't a valid expression.
u/FireHawkDelta [+7] ** (2 hours later)
The first thing that comes to mind is transforming into a creature that contains valuable polymers or chemicals that are just a difficult to manufacture configuration of common elements. For direct combat application, grow glands that produce incredibly potent venom from rare, very small animals that wouldn't be a feasible source of poison ordinarily. Then extract the venom and put it in toxic gas, giving the not-elves chemical weapons at at least a WWI level that should wipe out any group of goblin-things too stupid to be wearing gas masks. Which is most of them.
u/-Vecht- [+6] Legacy of the Goddess (3 hours later)
The first thing that comes to mind is transforming into a creature that contains valuable polymers or chemicals that are just a difficult to manufacture configuration of common elements.
Has to be based on the user's experience, and organic in nature. I don't think there are even any such creatures in existence.
For direct combat application, grow glands that produce incredibly potent venom from rare, very small animals that wouldn't be a feasible source of poison ordinarily. Then extract the venom and put it in toxic gas, giving the not-elves chemical weapons at at least a WWI level that should wipe out any group of goblin-things too stupid to be wearing gas masks. Which is most of them.
Okay, yeah, that's problematic. I will award this a bounty for pointing out the issue. PM me details for payment.
E: Agreed on gold.
u/akaltyn [+8] (5 hours later)
if your settings dragons have strong scales or other seful properties, like a lot of fantasy settings do, then being able to transform into baby dragons and mass produce scales would be vluable. Also, for cultures without good metalworking capabilities animal bones and claws are useful materials
u/ilI1il1Ili1i1liliiil [+5] (9 hours later)
In Everybody Loves Large Chests, the protagonist is a mimic that can transform into anything. The current issue is fixed by the rule that when the transformed tissue is disconnected from the body, it disintegrates into useless biomass.
u/FireHawkDelta [+3] ** (3 hours later)
Thanks! About a month ago I thought up a fantasy setting that had transformation as its main feature, and I decided to drop every other element of the magic system to see just how broken I could make permanently transforming body parts into those of other species. It gets a bit crazy when you throw invertebrates into the mix.
u/tempaccount920123 [+1] (a month later)
Hi. You may remember me from the anime_irl ish CMV a while back. I was talking
toat Shaku about you, and well, looked you up.I'm going to take a crack at this thread. It's right up my alley.
edit: damn, missed the cutoff.
u/FireHawkDelta [+1] ** (4 hours later)
The way I would fix this problem is to make it the holy grail of warfare that scientists think should be possible in principle, but haven't found a suitable animal due to the large difference in genes and size between people and bugs. This would make functional venom glands hard to replicate to a level of precision that actually works, with most attempts resulting in the venom leaking into the mage's bloodstream before the injection mechanism forms, with unpredictable variance in the effects. If it's ever done, it'd be difficult to replicate.
u/CaseyAshford [+5] (an hour later)
The immediate idea for a possible exploit that could break the setting comes from the use of Transformation as a means of achieving Immortality by transforming into younger versions of yourself or other people. One possible change you could make to the spell is to have Transformed individuals still suffer from debilitating mental conditions like Alzheimer's disease or dementia that effectively cause their death even if their body is young. This would allow for the existence of a very interesting setting where everyone above a certain social or financial position can retain perpetual youth without having to deal with the massive implications of an undying ruling class.
This may not be necessarily setting breaking but another idea based on Transformation is the potential ability of a Not-Elf to transform himself or a trusted compatriot into a Goblin-Thing. The Transformed Not-Elf could use their superior Not-Elf intellect and technology to acquire a position of power and unify the Goblin-Things. This seems like a great plot bunny as the Dark Lord unifying the monstrous races is a classic trope for a reason.
u/-Vecht- [+2] Legacy of the Goddess (an hour later)
The immediate idea for a possible exploit that could break the setting comes from the use of Transformation ~~~
Transformation does not allow fine-grained control of the target form, and does not allow for any changes except for mass or volume (including age). It cannot be used reliably for infiltration. You could transform into a goblin-thing or a not-elf or vice versa, but the details wouldn't be exact and your mannerisms would give you away.
u/Hust91 [+6] (5 hours later)
If you just want to transform into a generic goblin-thing, does the imprecise essence impact this or does it mean that all that anyone can transform into is golem-like shapes without facial features or fingers or any smaller details like that?
Are goblin-things clever enough to collectively figure out that the powerful goblin-thing ordering them about on pain of magical death and surprisingly successful raids on not-elves is secretly not a goblin-thing, and would they care given that they have no culture and the strange goblin-thing with more magic than any five other mages is making their tribe more successful than any others in living memory?
Could this work repeatedly on a cyclical basis if the goblins only have word-of-mouth to pass down their tribe's history, or is word-of-mouth retelling more culture than they can manage?
u/hikahia [+5] (4 hours later)
I'm not worried about bounties :)
Transform one's body, or the body of a willing or subdued target to that of another form. The form must be based off of one's experience of living creatures, and must be vaguely organic in nature. The caster does not have fine-grained control of the target form, but can reliably produce the same form. The cost to reverse the transformation is negligible. One may "master" one form with a great deal of practice. Every successful transformation reduces the time it takes to complete the transformation by up to a few seconds, to a minimum of 3 seconds. A mastered form may be replaced by spending an entire day in another form (that form does not become mastered).
Convert elephants to mice, launch sacks of mice from catapults, convert back to elephants in the 3 seconds they are in flight, it's now raining elephants on your enemies?
Convert mice to elephant, butcher elephant and feed whole town/all your troops? (Or cows, if you want to be inefficient.) I know someone already mentioned doing this to transport cows, but why bother? Just transport (or catch) mice and have a mage who can turn mice into cows.
One question, you mentioned in one of your comments that transformed creatures wouldn't be able to breed. Would a transformed chicken still be able to produce unfertilized eggs?
u/hikahia [+8] (4 hours later)
Ooh, another thought about transformation. Elephants live for 60-70 years, mice live for 2-3 years. If I transform a 6 month old elephant into a mouse, let it live as a mouse for a year, and then transform it back, is it now a 20-year-old elephant (equivalent amount of aging as a mouse) or is it still only a 1.5 year old elephant?
If they age, that opens you up to all sorts of fun with sped up breeding, you could whelp a litter and have them aged up to breeding age in a fraction of the time it would normally take.
u/Radioterrill [+4] (6 hours later)
Firstly, this is a great idea! I hope all the responses aren't overwhelming you. With that in mind, here are some thoughts I've had:
You've commented that Energy Burst travels via some illusory medium. Depending on what blocks it, that could lead to those fearing such attacks wearing protection like wide-brimmed hats with long veils. These wouldn't absorb energy but instead block the illusory medium. Of course, it could easily be that you can just target the hat and the ice spike will continue on through.
It's possible to make lenses out of ice. Energy Burst with blue mana could create such lenses temporarily, for a cost of only 1MP. This might be more economical than scrying over long distances when line of sight is available. Archimedes-style solar weapons using giant lenses probably aren't possible, though.
When making kinetic attacks with Energy Burst, is kinetic energy measured in the caster's frame of reference or in the frame of the planet? If it's the caster's frame, you could see magical jousts where casters launch their attacks from the backs of galloping horses so that the kinetic energy of the attack is higher in the frame of a target they're charging towards. If it's measured from a particular part of the caster, like the hand, Transformation could be used to put that part on a long, flexible limb, so that the spell can be released as that part is being whipped towards the enemy.
In a similar manner to the Transformation for venom, could Energy Burst with green mana be used to produce a burst of nature-based energy in the form of poison or acid? That could cause more harm than might otherwise be possible, as minimal physical energy would need to be imparted. Of course, the substance would have to be fast-acting enough to cause harm before it vanishes.
Is the time horizon of Luck distinct from its duration? If you've narrowed a battle plan down to two options, would it help to cast Luck then toss a coin to choose between them? If a personal stake is required, you could also bet on the outcome of the battle. From the sound of it, it would be hard to tell whether this works or not - it might be a sort of superstition that some generals have. It probably counts as relying on Luck, too
You've mentioned magical backlash as a possibility that is more likely when Siphon is used. Would Luck help to avoid this? Also, could this be used to counterspell by sending mana (ideally of a kind useless to both sender and receiver) to a caster as they're casting?
Would the magic present in the environment ever be a limiting factor? Depending on how quickly it's replenished, you could have the elves pursue a scorched earth policy of sending patrols through an area using mana, perhaps literally scorching the earth with it, in order to create buffer zones that lack enough ambient magic for the goblin casters to recover. This is partially inspired by Trudi Canavan's Magicians series, in which I think magic items are used with a similar purpose at one point.
This is a little morbid, but without disease, famine would presumably be the main nonviolent form of disaster. However, no disease also means that amputating limbs to eat would be less risky, and the availability of healing magic could perhaps allow those limbs to be restored in times of plenty.
It sounds like the default unit of organisation for mages should be a trio containing one with an affinity for each type of mana, one of whom knows siphon, so that each can benefit from the unusable mana reserves of the others.
I'm aware that you're no longer offering transformation bounties, but two options that I don't think have been ruled out are transforming for superior eyesight and other senses, and transforming into a form that can fly. Both of these would be great boons for recon and guerilla warfare by the elves.
How distinct are the mind and the brain? I'm assuming that Transforming an elf into an ox wouldn't diminish their intelligence, but what about transforming an ox into an elf? Could that make animal training easier?
On a similar note, it might be possible for the elves to train large docile animals and Transform them into more dangerous forms for combat, but I expect it would be a challenge to have the Transformed animal fight effectively.
Lastly, I know you're not looking for setting information but I'm curious why the elves launch attacks on the goblins rather than clearing out the wilderness in their territory, since that's a major cause of deaths and having more farmland would increase the elven population
u/vaegrim [+4] (17 hours later)
It's possible to make lenses out of ice. Energy Burst with blue mana could create such lenses temporarily, for a cost of only 1MP. This might be more economical than scrying over long distances when line of sight is available. Archimedes-style solar weapons using giant lenses probably aren't possible, though.
It's stated that matter created with the form is temporary, but the implication is that energy is permanent. That is to say, if you burn something with a Red Energy Burst it doesn't "un burn" a little while later. In that case, you should be able to use a Blue energy burst to precision freeze a form out of a pool of water. It'd require some craftsmanship, but I'd imagine "Ice Fabricators" in this way would be relatively common since it doesn't require a big MP pool.
u/-Vecht- [+5] Legacy of the Goddess (21 hours later)
When making kinetic attacks with Energy Burst, is kinetic energy measured in the caster's frame of reference or in the frame of the planet? If it's the caster's frame, you could see magical jousts where casters launch their attacks from the backs of galloping horses so that the kinetic energy of the attack is higher in the frame of a target they're charging towards. If it's measured from a particular part of the caster, like the hand, Transformation could be used to put that part on a long, flexible limb, so that the spell can be released as that part is being whipped towards the enemy.
We have ruled that this will be from the reference frame of the user, and have added addition rules for how this applies to the game mechanics. +1 additional bounty for prompting a useful clarification.
u/-Vecht- [+2] Legacy of the Goddess (18 hours later)
Firstly, this is a great idea! I hope all the responses aren't overwhelming you.
Thank you! It is indeed pretty overwhelming, but I am rather satisfied with how well it's worked out.
You've commented that Energy Burst travels via some illusory medium. Depending on what blocks it, that could lead to those fearing such attacks wearing protection like wide-brimmed hats with long veils. These wouldn't absorb energy but instead block the illusory medium. Of course, it could easily be that you can just target the hat and the ice spike will continue on through.
This is pretty clever, and I like it as a worldbuilding detail. +1 bounty. PM me for payment details or let me know if you prefer gold. (E: Claimed)
It's possible to make lenses out of ice. Energy Burst with blue mana could create such lenses temporarily, for a cost of only 1MP. This might be more economical than scrying over long distances when line of sight is available. Archimedes-style solar weapons using giant lenses probably aren't possible, though.
This doesn't work; the form don't last long enough to be useful for anything.
When making kinetic attacks with Energy Burst, is kinetic energy measured in the caster's frame of reference or in the frame of the planet? If it's the caster's frame, you could see magical jousts where casters launch their attacks from the backs of galloping horses so that the kinetic energy of the attack is higher in the frame of a target they're charging towards. If it's measured from a particular part of the caster, like the hand, Transformation could be used to put that part on a long, flexible limb, so that the spell can be released as that part is being whipped towards the enemy.
Haven't considered this; will get back to you after consulting with physics-QM.
In a similar manner to the Transformation for venom, could Energy Burst with green mana be used to produce a burst of nature-based energy in the form of poison or acid? That could cause more harm than might otherwise be possible, as minimal physical energy would need to be imparted. Of course, the substance would have to be fast-acting enough to cause harm before it vanishes.
This is limited by the energy change in the environment, so you couldn't cause more absolute damage than with a fireball, but it would let you have some control over what kind of damage you cause (frostbite vs burns vs acid burns).
Is the time horizon of Luck distinct from its duration? If you've narrowed a battle plan down to two options, would it help to cast Luck then toss a coin to choose between them? If a personal stake is required, you could also bet on the outcome of the battle. From the sound of it, it would be hard to tell whether this works or not - it might be a sort of superstition that some generals have. It probably counts as relying on Luck, too.
Who knows? ;)
You've mentioned magical backlash as a possibility that is more likely when Siphon is used. Would Luck help to avoid this? Also, could this be used to counterspell by sending mana (ideally of a kind useless to both sender and receiver) to a caster as they're casting?
Clever idea. :)
u/vaegrim [+3] (21 hours later)
This doesn't work; the form don't last long enough to be useful for anything.
see my reply here. To expand on that point, burst to create elemental ice as a shell around the water form. This freezes the water within. Then extract the object and set it on a dry surface. The elemental ice will vanish leaving the real frozen water intact.
u/-Vecht- [+2] Legacy of the Goddess (21 hours later)
This is a neat idea and I'm willing to award it a bounty. PM me details or let me know if you prefer gold.
u/vaegrim [+3] (22 hours later)
u/Radioterrill deserves the credit. Standing on the shoulders of giants and whatnot. If he demurs, Gold is good though my preference would be that the creator of the technique in your fiction have some derivation of my username.
u/-Vecht- [+2] Legacy of the Goddess (22 hours later)
Gilded both of you for good measure. u/Radioterrill you still have two outstanding bounties to claim.
E: Claimed.
u/crusher_bob [+4] (an hour later)
Hmm, one of the things I see is implementing a tax break (or reward, or whatever) for people who are sensitive to magic, but not strong enough to be actual mages to let you siphon off their mana. That way, you don't have to worry so much about exhausting your apprentices doing the siphoning to them.
Next, implement a telepathy based post office. The telepaths can work in shifts, and while they are on shift, they'll be 'in the post office' meaning you don't have to worry too much about where they are to send stuff to them.
You can also implement a scrying based message passing system: use writing or a sand table or whatever to draw your message and have someone scry it. This would seem to get around the complexity limits of telepathic messages.
Could you make a device that could recreate the scried image/drawing/letter? Then you have magic fax machines. You also have a magic printing press. (Example of how this could be done: energy burst fire in the form of letters, to simply burn them into your paper/parchment/whatever. Or energy burst an ice block with your letters sticking out and then just ink them and press.)
Write a 'code book' for telepathic messages. Take a page from ye olde maratime radio codes, and reduce 'common' message to collections of 3 letters (or whatever).
The post office lets yo gain all sorts of advantages from real time communication. Example: weather tracking, if a big storm is coming in, your telepaths can tell the post office in the port city (or whatever) about it, so they don't send out their fishing fleet (or whatever). I know ground based weather tracking stations were used with the advent of radio.
In addition, the post office allows for much more centralized government. You don't need to delegate decision making power to some baron if the village mayor (or whatever) can just ask the central government for what they want done.
If you can scry on some object high above, you can do things like send a kite up over your army, scry the kite, and get a birds eye view of what your army (and the other army) is doing. In fact, scrying on a kite for general recon should work all the time.
If you can revoke transforms at a distance, you can fire blue whales (or whatever) at people, by making the blue whale smaller, getting it over them, and then letting the transform go.
Telepathy also means you have a method of determining longitude while at sea. At local noon (or whenever) on the ship, you talk to/scry the post office in your capitol to find out what time it is there, which lets you compare the times and find what your longitude is. This is a pretty big deal in long range ship navigation.
You can probably use energy burst to mimic explosives. (Example, use a fire or electrical burst to flash a little bit of water to steam in a confined space). This lets you do things like cut roadways, fire cannons, quarry stone, etc much easier than ye olde pick and chisel method. If this works, you end up with star forts instead of castles, since castle walls don't resist cannon fire. This also lets you do things like have large stone blocks pre-prepared to block roads in the case of invasion, and when the invasion comes, you just drop the rocks. (IRL, South Korea has several pre-prepared big blocks of concrete to block roadways, etc in the case of invasion.)
You can do much more intensive training on people if you can heal all the 'minor' joint, ligament, bone, and muscle damage to the trainees. Train until your muscles are tearing off your bones, get healed, do it all again tomorrow. You can't do this this IRL because of long recovery times and the build up of incremental damage, but if you can heal all that, go wild.
You can probably get 'canned' food by using energy burst to sterilize food in an airtight container (e.g. a glazed piece of pottery).
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (16 hours later)
Hulloes, apologies it took me so long to get to this one. Overall, clever ideas, but for most of these there are issues with your interpretation of the abilities, or they are not ideas I haven't yet considered. However:
Telepathy also means you have a method of determining longitude while at sea. At local noon (or whenever) on the ship, you talk to/scry the post office in your capitol to find out what time it is there, which lets you compare the times and find what your longitude is. This is a pretty big deal in long range ship navigation.
This is a really neat idea and I will be stealing this. PM me for details on payment, or let me know if you prefer gold.
E: Donated to charity.
You can do much more intensive training on people if you can heal all the 'minor' joint, ligament, bone, and muscle damage to the trainees. Train until your muscles are tearing off your bones, get healed, do it all again tomorrow. You can't do this this IRL because of long recovery times and the build up of incremental damage, but if you can heal all that, go wild.
Clever, but this would actually undo the damage caused by exercise, rendering it ineffectual.
u/hikahia [+6] (17 hours later)
Clever, but this would actually undo the damage caused by exercise, rendering it ineffectual.
True for building muscle, but not true for muscle memory. Seems like they could become pretty intensely good fighters this way, with a year tacked on the end to help build up any muscle strength they need that they didn't get because of the healing.
Alternately, it would be interesting if healing helped reduce the need for sleep due to resetting the body back to a point when it was rested. Could have long training sessions back to back with healing in between, for really any subject you wanted someone trained up quickly in.
u/None [+3] (28 minutes later)
[deleted]
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (39 minutes later)
Do users without magic sensitivity still have the ability to generate and store mana?
Unknown, but that is a reasonable guess. If so, it isn't in enough quantities to be useful.
... would you get better/more efficient storage out of imbue item or energy burst (mana crystal form?) and just dumping pure mana into it?
Imbued objects are not valid targets for Siphon. Energy burst is not known to allow for permanent objects to be created.
... can you siphon over mana of types you aren't sensitive to to a teammate who is?
Yes.
Do you need line of sight to use telepathy?
Nope, but you need to know roughly where the target is in relation to you. This naturally decreases the effectiveness of the ability at large distances without a good deal of practice or use of scrying. I forgot to add that detail.
Would scry count as line of sight for use of telepathy? Would using scry in tandem with telepathy be more mana efficient for a far away target than just using telepathy directly?
See above. Also, telepathy cost doesn't scale with distance.
Similarly would using luck + foretelling give you a better vision for your mana cost than just using a stronger foretelling?
To magic cost: it will not. To effect: people have tried this and it is unknown if it actually does anything.
If it is possible for a non-royal-family-member to be sensitive to all three major mana types, does that not count as the same ability?
It is possible, though there are not any verified accounts of such.
Would soothe be able to make a target more receptive to siphoning, or even willing such that it was a guaranteed thing?
Possible, though unpredictable, as soothe is a dampening of emotions and it isn't well understood how this works. It would take a lot of magic.
u/CFCrispyBacon [+2] (an hour later)
Can you Siphon accumulated magic from those without magic sensitivity?
u/-Vecht- [+2] Legacy of the Goddess (an hour later)
This does not work.
u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+1] (2 hours later)
Imbued objects are not valid targets for Siphon.
But the spell Siphon lets you give mana to a target right? Can you imbue an item with Siphon and then later use the item to restore mana to a target? This would let you create mana batteries whenever you have spare mana, and then use those batteries to siphon mana back to yourself when you need to cast spells. Or have the entire species keep creating mana batteries whenever they have spare mana, and send those batteries to the frontlines of war.
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (2 hours later)
But the spell Siphon lets you give mana to a target right? Can you imbue an item with Siphon and then later use the item to restore mana to a target? This would let you create mana batteries whenever you have spare mana, and then use those batteries to siphon mana back to yourself when you need to cast spells. Or have the entire species keep creating mana batteries whenever they have spare mana, and send those batteries to the frontlines of war.
Siphon allows for transference of magic, yes.
Imbuing an item with Siphon would let you use the item to cast Siphon. It wouldn't let you do anything Siphon couldn't do alone. Siphon cannot target imbued objects to tap them for magic.
u/Hust91 [+2] (5 hours later)
But imbuing the object with Siphon would make an object that could be activated to give anyone the energy that is within that object, essentially becoming a mana potion of sorts?
If so, could these be used to give wealthy nobles the ability to play mage themselves, even without the natural ability to regenerate energy?
Also, could a Siphon object or Siphoning apprentice charge someone with more mana than their normal maximum?
Does an item have to be imbued all at once or can it be imbued over time while others siphon energy into you?
Are there energy density limits to how much mana can be imbued into a person or object?
What happens to an imbued object if it breaks, is it all released in some raw form?
Could arbitrarily powerful objects be made with industrial Siphon use to the caster, that are either used as hand-held siege weapons, rapidly regenerating power generators (1% of 100 000 MO is 10 000 MP after all)?
The potential of objects of any size to be imbued with the output of an entire country's magical industry (including any previous such objects imbued with Siphon) seems very interesting, but there is a potential need to put a volume/mass limit on certain sizes, to avoid the creation of Wands of Nuclear Bomb.
Not interested in money, just very fascinated by the magic system and don't necessarily think the ability to make arbitrarily powerful magical items is a bad thing, but can be a source of flavor with massive mana battery/generators being high-value objects being carted to a place where a new wizard's tower is being built to serve as its foundation.
Or tree-lined magical wands that are good for only a few absurdly powerful shots, but can break the walls of cities so easily that city walls are only built to defend against raiders, not enemy nations.
Or temples having a massive metal rock base that is imbued with Siphon to resupply green wizards working there, or Healing to make the wizard himself unnecessary.
u/akaltyn [+3] (4 hours later)
[Wrote these before reading other comments to avoid contamination, so may repeat things. ]
The magic transferring is going to be the biggest thing. You can effectively get around any of the mana restrictions by having enough minions to get the magic from them.
Depending on how fast magic builds up/dissipates in a person then you would either have arrangements with as many people as possible to regularly give you their mana, or have them all kept nearby for when needed. If it’s a semifuedal society then you would probably make them your close servants/retainers. Having a large retinue would be important for retaining power and status. [This would end up being similar to how breath works in Sanderson's Warbreaker, or the magic in the Black Magician series.]
The next bit depends a lot on how much mana an individual can hold and for how long:
- if there isn't a limit and it dissipates slowly/not at all then you would end up with individuals building up as much as possible, under they are storing a nuclear level amount personally. (This would fit in well with the fuedal lords, e.g. each lord has a couple of hundred serfs who ritualistically give them mana regularly).
- If it dissipates or is capped then you would have people absorbing as much as possible, then putting it into objects and stockpiling those. (They effectively become mana storage batteries, but with a specific use.) Which ends up with a similar dynamic, but items are potentially easier to steal, deny access to, or buy and sell.
- If these items can be used by anyone, then you have an equivalent of the invention of gunpowder, where you could equip a group of soldiers with premade magic items, making them as powerful as mages for the length of a battle. This would be a potential way to explain why the not-elves have maintained military superiority, if they have squads of professional trained soldiers all with magic weapons, and the enemy has rare mages and lots of grunts. (Again the firearms analogy).
- Socially this also changes the role of mages from front line combatants to manufacturing weapons en masse, and means having a separate professional soldier class using the weapons.
If magic is capped/dissipates, but mass production of items isn't an option: You would have mages with teams entourages of dozens/hundreds on hand to power their abilities. E.g. in a battle situation a mage effectively acts like an artillery piece, with minions as ammo, continuously rotating to refill them. Tactically this means defending the entourage is important, and by killing them you can disable opposing magic users. Also since they are a limited resource the mages will run out eventually, so the side with the bigger supply has a major advantage. So how fast you use your reserves compared to your opponent is key. Meaning there might be tactics of forcing your opponent to use theirs up early in a battle.
Another way to nerf the imbued magic items would be to have them also slowly lose magic over time, or only be usable by the the original maker.
Telepathy/scrying gives a massive military advantage, allowing the side with the better mages (presumably the elves) to have a level of information and coordination that wasn't possible until the modern age. Obviously this makes it easier for them to set ambushes, send small groups to intercept, etc. Total information superiority is a big deal. So you may want to add an antiscrying ability? Scrying can also be used as an equivalent of telepathy, if you have someone write information in a pre specified location a scryer can read the messages. Which might allow you to get around some of telepathy's restrictions, in exchange for the added restriction that its one way. E.g. a soldier i the field can write out a page long report and leave it on top of a predeignated rock, bypassing the information restrictions on telepaths, With two scryers you can have an instant messenger style conversation with them each writing on paper and reading the otehrs paper.
Also, havign fast long distance communication means you can have a much more modern centralised state and culture than would be possible before the modern era on earth. Meaning fuedal lords would be much less independent, and news travels a lot faster. Which has various politicla and economic implications. Combines interestingly with people not being able to travel much because of the monsters etc, as that means walled cities with telepaths can be culturally and politically linked, but the people rarely interact in person
Where does the food come from?
For the elves, you say they are on a small area of not very fertile land, does that mean they have a strictly limited population (much smaller than their original one) and frequent food shortages? That makes control of land and population control a big deal politically.
For the goblin/orcs, do they have a cohesive enough society and enough intelligence to have large scale farming? If not I can't see them maintaining a population without magical assistance. This then opens the question of why they are good enough at coordinating for that, but not for other things.
Related to that, I'm not a big fan of the big dumb warrior race trope in general. Since its hard to do well without getting into uncomfortable territory. Though there are ways you can play with it. How do they maintain larg enough societies for food etc, if they are innately violent or stupid? Is there some limitation that only comes out as groups get larger? Could there be tribes who were coordinated enough that the elves could trade with them? That opens interesting possibilities with havign different not-goblin nations trading with the elves or acting as buffer states/mercenaries. Also allows things like selling some good quality weapons to one tribe and setting them off aginst their neighbours
edit also, there's al sorts of fun you ca have if invigorate spells can be used for magic power, intelligence, speed of thought, skill in magic, etc. But I assume those would be not allowed. Maybe make a hard rule that it can only apply to physical attributes? Being able to remove the need for sleep or food would aso be a big deal
edit 2 Can energy burst pass through objects? If yes, then I create an extremely thin but large and wide sheet at approximately neck height in the middle of an enemy formation, killing them en masse. In general it would also be most useful to deploy very small shapes targetted at vital areas. (Tiny amount in the eye/brain is often fatal.)
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (18 hours later)
If it dissipates or is capped then you would have people absorbing as much as possible, then putting it into objects and stockpiling those. (They effectively become mana storage batteries, but with a specific use.) Which ends up with a similar dynamic, but items are potentially easier to steal, deny access to, or buy and sell.
...
Another way to nerf the imbued magic items would be to have them also slowly lose magic over time, or only be usable by the the original maker.
You have convinced me that Imbued Objects should decay over time to prevent stockpiling. I will award this a bounty. PM me with payment details or let me know if you prefer gold.
E: Donated to charity.
Scrying can also be used as an equivalent of telepathy, if you have someone write information in a pre specified location a scryer can read the messages. Which might allow you to get around some of telepathy's restrictions, in exchange for the added restriction that its one way. E.g. a soldier i the field can write out a page long report and leave it on top of a predeignated rock, bypassing the information restrictions on telepaths,
This is clever and is indeed possible, although scrying itself has nontrivial costs to maintain. It is not an idea I haven't considered.
There are a few issues with your interpretation on other points, and I will not be speaking to issues regarding the setting, but thanks for your suggestions there.
u/akaltyn [+1] (2 days later)
Send the money to AMF or givewell :)
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (3 days later)
Done
u/ilI1il1Ili1i1liliiil [+3] (10 hours later)
How are imbued objects' magics triggered? Can you imbue an arrow with a bad transformation and shoot it at someone to transform (part of) them?
u/keeper52 [+2] (58 minutes later)
1: Can someone cast an ability with massive MP if magic is being siphoned to them as they cast?
2: Can you imbue objects with the ability Siphon?
3: If yes to 1&2, can you use objects imbued with Siphon to support someone casting an ability with massive MP?
4: If yes to 1, can you it to cast Imbue Object with massive MP to create powerful magical objects which recharge?
5: If yes to 3&4, can you create a bunch of powerful rechargeable magical objects with Siphon, using the ones that you have already created to aid in the creation of more? And then also create a bunch of other powerful rechargeable magical objects, with whatever other abilities you have?
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (an hour later)
1: Can someone cast an ability with massive MP if magic is being siphoned to them as they cast?
Heal, Rejuvenate, and Imbue Object would currently allow for this. Other abilities require the magic to be gathered up-front. I don't really want to have to model Siphon being used inside of a cast-time for other abilities, so lets just say that it works, but is very dangerous and is more likely to cause a magical backlash than to increase the effect. (This is actually a mechanic I intend to model)
2: Can you imbue objects with the ability Siphon?
Yes, but the magic would go to the person invoking the object, not to the object.
3: If yes to 1&2, can you use objects imbued with Siphon to support someone casting an ability with massive MP?
The person casting the ability wouldn't be able to also invoke the object at the same time; too much concentration is necessary.
4: If yes to 1, can you it to cast Imbue Object with massive MP to create powerful magical objects which recharge?
Currently, yes, but it may change. There is currently an outstanding bounty in another post to demonstrate to me that this is setting breaking.
5: If yes to 3&4, can you create a bunch of powerful rechargeable magical objects with Siphon, using the ones that you have already created to aid in the creation of more? And then also create a bunch of other powerful rechargeable magical objects, with whatever other abilities you have?
The objects created in this way would be limited to the caster's capacity plus the rate that you could use Siphon to transfer magic to the person casting Imbued Object.
u/Running_Ostrich [+2] (2 hours later)
I've got a bunch of questions though I'm sure you'll answer them in the way that doesn't clearly break the system.
For Imbue object:
How does the Magic Ability get triggered after the caster has imbued an object? Can these Magic Abilities be triggered without a person to use them? E.g. Could I imbue a rock with energy burst to keep hammering the same spot over a long period of time?
How is the Magic Power of the imbued object determined?
Could you imbue a single marble in a bag of marbles with Imbue Object so that it imbues another marble with Imbue Object? And then later both of those marbles imbue two other marbles with Imbue Object? And so on until you had a bag of marbles with a lot of MP?
What happens if a caster tries to imbue an object that has already been imbued (but isn't yet inert)?
What counts as an object? Could a caster imbue a building with Soothe?
For energy burst:
Can the user control the density of the energy? E.g. Can a caster make a large block of ice that isn't filled with much energy and so doesn't cost much MP? Can a caster make a bullet that's imparted with a lot of energy?
What happens when the temporary object fades? E.g. Would this kill a person if they breathed the air of a green energy burst when it disappears?
What does a form consist of? Could a caster make a form that is oil and then burn it? Could a caster make a gold coin and sell it? Could a caster make gunpowder or other explosives? Could a caster make carbon nanotubes?
Do the created forms follow the laws of physics? E.g. if a caster were to create a large rock above someone, would it fall to crush them?
For transformation:
What happens if you reverse a transformation in an area that is smaller than the real body? How fast does this reversal happen?
For all blue magics:
Can these be cast on an involuntary target, either by a caster or by an object imbued with their spells? e.g. could you throw a cube of scrying at a person to take them out of the battle?
For telepathy:
Can a caster send telepathic messages to people who don't want them? Can a caster send a message that's very long but not very complex? E.g. Could a caster send the equivalent of tv static or me saying "Hi" on repeat for 1 hour?
Is a message sent all at once or does it happen over a period of time? If the latter, what happens if the target moves while the caster is sending a message?
For heal and rejuvenate:
Is the mind of the target at all affected by these? E.g. What would these do to someone who had memory loss due to being hit in the head?
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (2 hours later)
I've got a bunch of questions though I'm sure you'll answer them in the way that doesn't clearly break the system.
So the thing is, I have intuitive/explicit models of how the magic should work that are far more defined than pithy descriptions allow me to easily convey without prohibitive effort. Also, a lot of it is intentionally vague so as not to give away more information than I would prefer to. And simple illusion of transparency means that there are going to be numerous cases where I fail to adequately convey those intuitions even after attempting to answer clarification questions.
It isn't the case that the uncertainty in your mind created by lack of adequate description on my part can resolve to literally any interpretation. Indeed, a lot of the finer points are mostly already defined by the elements I have intuitively pinned down, even if I haven't actually considered them yet in that amount of detail.
TBH the whole process is immensely taxing and I'm going to have to take a break for a couple hours at least. I would appreciate though if you could not imply that I'm trying to cheat on answers, though -- this is just really hard to do for one person.
u/None [+2] (2 hours later)
"Further, Prismatic energy does not naturally occur, but Blue, Red and Green energies may be combined in equal parts to form Prismatic energy, with all due implications."
If I have 1 Red, 1 blue, and 1 green, does that make 1 prismatic or 3?
'For theory-crafting purposes, assume that a novice Magician will have ~20-50 MP, adept Magicians will have ~50-100, and experts will have ~100-250. " How long does it take to reach novice (do they start at that?), and is there any change in efficacy, casting speed, or regeneration rate or just in storage // Is increased storage correlated to spell pool / efficacy / casting rate, and if so how strongly?
What does open sky mean for scrying? Can you block scrying by cloud cover? Mist? A massive umbrella pavilion? Kicking up a dust cloud? Carryign rock sheets?
Is prismatic a separate attunation from the standard three, or is having 1 enough?
"The form must be based off of one's experience of living creatures, and must be vaguely organic in nature."
Is Transformation permanent? If so, then depending on what vaguely organic in nature covers, expect things like spider silk, some metallic bacteria; I might also expect that mages would look into heavy metal poisoning of animals, then turn stock animals into these sickly, metal-laden animals in order to turn magic into rare materials, which would make the price of materials equal to the price of that mage's time and magic. This isn't neccesarily setting breaking, but should have big impacts ont he ecomonics of precious materials.
Can you use luck to get a favorable result ona psuedorandom outcome, like blindly throwing darts? If so, can you use it as a discount scrying for throwing darts at a map to identify locations or the like?
Healing can't effect aging, but can it affect side effects of aging, like wrinkles or memory loss or hair whitening?
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (3 hours later)
If I have 1 Red, 1 blue, and 1 green, does that make 1 prismatic or 3?
What does open sky mean for scrying? Can you block scrying by cloud cover? Mist? A massive umbrella pavilion? Kicking up a dust cloud? Carryign rock sheets?
You can block it with an umbrella -- the person would just see the umbrella. Clouds, mist, fog, or dust could would obscure vision but not prevent the effect. If you're inside a cave and attempt to scry out of the cave (or from the outside into the cave) this won't work.
u/None [+1] (20 hours later)
"You can block it with an umbrella -- the person would just see the umbrella. Clouds, mist, fog, or dust could would obscure vision but not prevent the effect. If you're inside a cave and attempt to scry out of the cave (or from the outside into the cave) this won't work."
Iiinteresting. One neat thing I could see happening is armies having a set of "pole-and-cloth" apparatus to carry over their army's heads, much like a circus tent or whatever, made to look like the terain to block random burst scrying to find them; I would expect this to be more common around encampments, but a suitably ambitious general could do it on the march too if they're willing to sacrifice speed for security. You couldn't just carry it in a straight march, because then the movement would give it away, but you could have it in parts with the back end being pulled down and carries to the front which if your dye skills are good enough would allow a full army core to operate as though under camouflage. Not setting breaking, but might be a neat past exploit, and if it was successful at some point in the past would probably lead to any cores of scrying mages being trained in a wide variety of geographies so they could identify these constructs.
I would expect mages to be split into trios under almost all circumstances, unless it is certain that only 1 form of magic is needed at a location; with prismatic magic, they can shuffle their magic between different disciplines (ie three red , or 2 blue and 1 green, or 1 of each like normal, or almost arbitrary fractions of each; you would also expect these to be of a approximately equal skill level since that way there's no 'wasted" mana, which would probably lead to three man magic squads being a common theme in literature and in magic training; you'd here legends about sam, jack, and jane, who did x heroic thing in the past, but also john, james, and arthur, the professional magic casters who work together in the nearby city.
Possibly intended, but a red mage seems far more useful for large organizations, green for isolated locales, and blue for administrative work; I'd expect a cultural association with those positions after this long, although this would be somewhat counteracted by trios and the greater personal freedom they might have with their greater than average rarity and therefore disproportionate inluence.
u/CreationBlues [+2] (3 hours later)
So I might or might not be braking your setting exactly, but arbitrary tf magic will do terrible, terrible things to your cultures.
The first thing you need to understand is that the earliest evidence we have for a humans capacity for imagination is a furry. Every cultures first religion is based around anthropomorphised concepts. Every culture that has ever existed has extensively used anthro characters in their art, religion, and myth. Significant fractions of your not-elves are going to not be not-elves.
"Oh, well, people into that stuff in our world aren't common, so that means people into that stuff in my world would be the same." Except the people historically into that have been the cultural and religious leaders, people like actors, shamans, artists, priests, etc. Which means that their culture is going to have a strong culture of exploring that.
Species swaps are going to be a huge thing, since rock eaters have at least one form that they are familiar with: their own, and mages specializing in transformation are going to be spending a lot of time swapping around forms so they can familiarize themselves. Are the rock eaters better miners? Expect a lot of miners to voluntarily become not-elf/rock eater hybrids. I expect that not-elves actually come from using transformation magic to optimize their stat-builds, which would happen anyways.
Referencing the above, body mods like horns, weird skin, double eyes, etc. etc are going to be made and passed down, accumulating in the gene pool.
Birth would be a cake walk for
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (3 hours later)
You raise interesting ideas and make good points, but there are a number of issues with your interpretation of Transformation; also I will be reworking this to hopefully avoid a lot of the worst offenders, and thus am no longer awarding bounties for setting-breaking consequences of the ability (see note at bottom of main post).
Referencing the above, body mods like horns, weird skin, double eyes, etc. etc are going to be made
I really like this detail though and am willing to award it a bounty. With that, I won't be awarding any additional bounties for Transformation.
If you'd like, PM me payment details, or let me know if you'd prefer Gold.
u/Cariyaga [+2] Kyubey did nothing wrong (4 hours later)
raises finger
Relativity isn't a thing, nor is quantum physics. No one has put any time or effort towards understanding how things happen on large, fast, or small scales, but for meta reasons it's a safe bet that magic acts exactly as is necessary to make things work as observed at human-scales, regardless of how complex that would make the object-level laws of magic and physics.
Dammit. lowers finger
Can an imbued object be made to automatically use its imbued power? I was considering that creating a bunch of Imbued Luck items could be quite potent. Does Luck stack?
u/Radvic [+3] (14 hours later)
raises finger
Relativity isn't a thing, nor is quantum physics. No one has put any time or effort towards understanding how things happen on large, fast, or small scales, but for meta reasons it's a safe bet that magic acts exactly as is necessary to make things work as observed at human-scales, regardless of how complex that would make the object-level laws of magic and physics.
Dammit. lowers finger
Yeah. I miiiight have had something to do with that.
u/Veedrac [+3] (16 hours later)
How very unexpected.
u/Cariyaga [+1] Kyubey did nothing wrong (15 hours later)
Hahahah, good on ya. We both know the kind of players this's gonna attract would abuse the shit out of that :p
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (4 hours later)
Oh hai.
Can an imbued object be made to automatically use its imbued power?
Nope.
I was considering that creating a bunch of Imbued Luck items could be quite potent. Does Luck stack?
It does, although the same restrictions apply (lasts a short time, fades if you try to rely on it).
u/Cariyaga [+1] Kyubey did nothing wrong (4 hours later)
By "fades if you try to rely on it" does that mean "fades to no effect" or "takes effect and then fades"?
What kind of action does it take to use an imbued object? Could you have, say, a magician with every link in his chain shirt imbued with Luck and use them repeatedly through combat?
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (17 hours later)
By "fades if you try to rely on it" does that mean "fades to no effect" or "takes effect and then fades"?
Yes.
What kind of action does it take to use an imbued object? Could you have, say, a magician with every link in his chain shirt imbued with Luck and use them repeatedly through combat?
You could do that, although it would be stupid expensive if you weren't yourself a mage. Also, this doesn't work in practice because it takes time to active items. If you do that while someone's swinging a sword at you, you might not be so lucky.
u/Cariyaga [+1] Kyubey did nothing wrong (21 hours later)
Oh, sure, you obviously wouldn't do it while someone was swinging a sword at you, but if you took a half-second to do so while moving from one enemy to another, it could be very potent. I'd imagine this to be the kind of thing the royal family, at least, would develop a fighting style to accommodate. As long as they didn't rely on the luck, it could work quite well to make them a force to be reckoned with, combat skills aside.
u/Cariyaga [+1] Kyubey did nothing wrong (4 hours later)
Additional questions ('nother post for organizational purposes):
Can Invigorate target Luck or Magic?
Do multiple magicians' use of it on a single target stack? (I shudder to ask this, but multiplicatively or additively?)
Does an Imbued Invigorate allow a choice of what to invigorate or is it pre-set?
Can you choose what end to use Foretelling to? Does proximity affect its accuracy? (IE: Cast Foretelling for what meal you'd most enjoy purchasing at a restaurant for high degree of accuracy)
Can Non-magicians use Imbued items? It occurs to me that a staff of Soothe at every tavern would be ideal for dealing with angry drunks :P
Heal says it doesn't reverse aging, but Transformation does not say so. Is this intended?
Something worth noting with Imbue Item exploits is that exceptionally few people would be in the position to exploit it.
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (17 hours later)
Can Invigorate target Luck or Magic?
Nobody knows, and no.
Do multiple magicians' use of it on a single target stack? (I shudder to ask this, but multiplicatively or additively?)
Maybe? Nobody really knows, and it's kind of dangerous to test.
Does an Imbued Invigorate allow a choice of what to invigorate or is it pre-set?
It is pre-set.
Can you choose what end to use Foretelling to?
You cannot.
Can Non-magicians use Imbued items? It occurs to me that a staff of Soothe at every tavern would be ideal for dealing with angry drunks :P
They can, and this is a thing.
Something worth noting with Imbue Item exploits is that exceptionally few people would be in the position to exploit it.
Yes, this is something I am going to have to reason more thoroughly about to figure out what level of exploits would be attainable, and how frequently they would occur in the population and over time.
u/Cariyaga [+1] Kyubey did nothing wrong (21 hours later)
Maybe? Nobody really knows, and it's kind of dangerous to test. Wouldn't it be relatively easy to test for someone with imbue item? Just get a bunch of imbuements prepared for Invigorate ahead of time.
Presumably it's dangerous to test because of, for instance, accidentally breaking your arm for Invigorating strength, correct? It'd seem to be possible to stack Invigorates on something like Luck to quickly figure out whether it's possible to stack them AND if Luck is invigorable. (though of course, either of those conditions may not be true and the other was)
What "level" of magicians' mana would be required for a regenerating Imbued item, if this is something you'd answer? Like Novice/Adept/Expert.
I assume Rejuvenate doesn't aid in regenerating Mana? Does it instead get rid of mana?
Could a sufficiently-amoral and skilled magician Transform a great many other magicians into a small shape (and having them on their person) and use them to siphon from, torturing them until they are sufficiently-willing if necessary?
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (a day later)
resumably it's dangerous to test because of, for instance, accidentally breaking your arm for Invigorating strength, correct? It'd seem to be possible to stack Invigorates on something like Luck to quickly figure out whether it's possible to stack them AND if Luck is invigorable. (though of course, either of those conditions may not be true and the other was)
What "level" of magicians' mana would be required for a regenerating Imbued item, if this is something you'd answer? Like Novice/Adept/Expert.
I assume Rejuvenate doesn't aid in regenerating Mana? Does it instead get rid of mana?
Could a sufficiently-amoral and skilled magician Transform a great many other magicians into a small shape (and having them on their person) and use them to siphon from, torturing them until they are sufficiently-willing if necessary?
LDK.
u/Ramnie [+2] (7 hours later)
I know you are no longer rewarding points about transformation but I have some questions about how you are modeling the effect from a nurobialogical level.
I am assuming it is intended for the brain to at least vaguely cross over after a transition, IE they keep memories, habits, and skills. I also assume that you intend for things to change from one not-elf to mouse or most other biological transformations as long as you have the mana.
I am wondering how you keep the complexity of a sientinent brain working when condensed at such small levels. Human brains are already very efficient and without offloading the processing I don’t know how a mouse can run human software. I am also worried about how it is even paserving the very complex patterns that make up memories.
I know you had a disclaimer about size working in weird ways, but I have fiddled with scientific transformations and have been unable to find a method I liked. So if you have found an eligant solution I would like to hear it. Ps: this was a lot longer then I ment it and was typed on my phone so please ignore the typos.
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (18 hours later)
I know you are no longer rewarding points about transformation but I have some questions about how you are modeling the effect from a nurobialogical level.
I am assuming it is intended for the brain to at least vaguely cross over after a transition, IE they keep memories, habits, and skills. I also assume that you intend for things to change from one not-elf to mouse or most other biological transformations as long as you have the mana.
I am wondering how you keep the complexity of a sientinent brain working when condensed at such small levels. Human brains are already very efficient and without offloading the processing I don’t know how a mouse can run human software. I am also worried about how it is even paserving the very complex patterns that make up memories.
I know you had a disclaimer about size working in weird ways, but I have fiddled with scientific transformations and have been unable to find a method I liked. So if you have found an eligant solution I would like to hear it. Ps: this was a lot longer then I ment it and was typed on my phone so please ignore the typos.
More or less, magic in this universe is ontologically basic and precedes physics. Emergent physics in the world are just a lossy abstraction created by a set of rules that have been imposed on the underlying substrate that governs magic.
u/Gurkenglas [+2] (19 hours later)
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/64/Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality Ctrl-F "Welcome" :D
u/Veedrac [+2] (18 hours later)
The forms created in this manner are temporary; the ability is not known to create permanent objects.
When things disappear, what happens to the space they used to occupy?
u/-Vecht- [+2] Legacy of the Goddess (19 hours later)
^(Sigh.) ^(I know I'm going to regret this.)
When things disappear, what happens to the space they used to occupy?
As the form materializes and travels, it pushes air out of the way. The energy required to do so is accounted for in the 100J delta-energy per MP limit, but is generally negligible. This does mean that attempting to use it in water or some medium denser than air is going to be less effective. When the effect fades, it does so gradually (you can imagine it continuously shrinking away into nothing), and whatever medium it traveled through will flow back to occupy the space.
u/Veedrac [+2] (20 hours later)
Believe it or not, it wasn't a trap. Unless you'd learnt nothing from MfD, that is ;).
u/akaltyn [+1] (2 days later)
Being able to create vacuums easily (by creating then dispelling an object) with otherwise premordern technology might allow for canning to preserve food (if you can make good enough glass/pottery/metal).
u/Icare0 [+2] (a day later)
Telepathically communicate with the target individual. Complexity is bounded by one's understanding of the target's language. Distance is soft-bounded by needing to know roughly where the target is in relation to the user. This limit can be mitigated with use of scrying, and also with practice over time.
If I'm reading this right, you can break this to create long distance military communications. Is the only Mp limit message complexity ? How do you define complexity ?
Write a code in which each command or information is keyed to one or two phonemes. Like, the TH sound in "The" is enemy and the TH sound in "fourth" is ally. Since there are languages in the real world with upwards of 140 phonemes, it should be fairly easy to convey any complex orders using at most 5~6 phonemes for trivial MP costs. Think morse code, except instead of binary you are working with base 140. Prefer using very common phonemes, and leave the rarer phonemes for weirder words.
Nail down a chair and train all communication officers (blue mages) to keep track of where the chair is in relation to them. Teach officers to end communications with a indication of location so the mage in the chair can relay back messages. Congratulations, you just created a Telephone Exchange that can relay orders in real time, instantly, at all moments for little to no cost, directly to the receiver's brain. Even modern day military would kill for this kind of security.
Now put a Scryer just beside that chair for the duration of pitched battles. You now have both instant communications and the magical equivalent of satellite surveillance while your enemies are using scouts. You see where i am going with this.
Communications is the most broken thing in warfare that I know of. And these guys have communications that are impossible to intercept.
Edit: Reads the description of Imbue Object
OH MY GOD. Cellphones. Or at the very least portable telegraph machines. Mass produce Telepaty-imbued pebbles and you get texting!
Edit2: Aaaaaaaand I just noticed that this is a day old thread and lots of people alrealdy pointed out the power of blue magic. Well, I'mma go back to my corner and skulk about the fact that I never arrive in time for these things.
u/Kuratius [+2] (6 hours later)
Relativity isn't a thing, nor is quantum physics. No one has put any time or effort towards understanding how things happen on large, fast, or small scales, but for meta reasons it's a safe bet that magic acts exactly as is necessary to make things work as observed at human-scales, regardless of how complex that would make the object-level laws of magic and physics.
I think you just broke magnets. Magnetism is an effect that occurs at human scales due to special relativity for currents, and a combination of SR and quantum mechanics at small scales.
u/Veedrac [+2] (15 hours later)
In our world, yes, but Vecht isn't bound by our world's physics.
u/Kuratius [+1] (18 hours later)
In our world, yes, but Vecht isn't bound by our world's physics.
Some things in physics aren't arbitrary; they are mathematical truths emerging from rather simple assumptions. One would say common sense even. E.g. the strength of electromagnetic waves always has to scale with 1/r if the wave front keeps its energy. Say you assume that Maxwells equations do not hold; if rot E is not equal to the negative time derivative of magnetic flux density you can have perpetual motion machines because you'll be able to generate infinite energy.
u/Veedrac [+1] (18 hours later)
Why do you call them "electromagnetic waves"? Quantum physics isn't a thing. Why do you assume the wave front keeps its energy? Why do you even assume flux is a well-defined quantity? Heck, how do you even know perpetual motion machines are impossible? There are a billion ways to make magnets work in magnet-esque ways; this is clearly not Earth physics so the only thing you know for sure is that it isn't our way.
u/Kuratius [+1] (19 hours later)
Why do you call them "electromagnetic waves"? Quantum physics isn't a thing.
Quantum physics is not where EM waves come from. There are phenomena that are so intrinsically linked that no matter what is going on, you'll always get an analogue. A finite speed of propagation of a disturbance in a measurable quantity means you get waves if the medium isn't overdamped.
Why do you even assume flux is a well-defined quantity?
If magnets are a thing, magnetic flux and its density are defined via the field strength. You can of course assume that magnets aren't actually magnets, and are instead magic force generators with no relation to electricity at all.
Heck, how do you even know perpetual motion machines are impossible?
I don't. But there are multiple ways to get there, breaking conservation of energy is just one of them, and it's probably the most harmful example.
u/Veedrac [+1] (20 hours later)
This just seems like a lack of imagination.
Hypothesis: Light is instantaneous─it does not travel─and acts through direct coupling of borders of objects: there is no vector field.
Hypothesis: Light is formed from noninteracting discrete perfectly-spherical balls of energy that travel through space. They are scattered stochastically from light sources, and bounce deterministically off hard objects.
Hypothesis: Light is formed from long conical filaments that reach out from light sources. They interact only weakly. Filaments have a maximum distance determined stochastically; the reason light appears to dim with distance is that some filaments reach their maximum distance.
Hypothesis: Magnets are specific metals infested by tiny creatures living in their pores. They are attracted to metals because those creatures have evolved to cast attracting magics to metals in their surroundings that they can feed on.
u/Kuratius [+1] (a day later)
Hypothesis: Light is instantaneous─it does not travel─and acts through direct coupling of borders of objects: there is no vector field.
I can't model this properly, can you clarify? Are you implying some kind of ray tracing or are you trying to say that nothing blocks light?
Hypothesis: Light is formed from noninteracting discrete perfectly-spherical balls of energy that travel through space. They are scattered stochastically from light sources, and bounce deterministically off hard objects.
Congratulations, everything is a perfect mirror.
Hypothesis: Light is formed from long conical filaments that reach out from light sources. They interact only weakly. Filaments have a maximum distance determined stochastically; the reason light appears to dim with distance is that some filaments reach their maximum distance.
Alright, so I can have a flashlight with kilometres of range? Or I have a camp fire enemies can't see?
Hypothesis: Magnets are specific metals infested by tiny creatures living in their pores. They are attracted to metals because those creatures have evolved to cast attracting magics to metals in their surroundings that they can feed on.
So it's magic. Not related to electricity then. No electromagnets.
u/Veedrac [+1] (a day later)
I can't model this properly, can you clarify? Are you implying some kind of ray tracing or are you trying to say that nothing blocks light?
Like the radiosity algorithm.
Congratulations, everything is a perfect mirror.
I didn't mean to imply that light was never absorbed, or that surfaces were perfectly flat.
Alright, so I can have a flashlight with kilometres of range? Or I have a camp fire enemies can't see?
Presumably the distance of a filament would be proportional to the energy consumption of the illuminating source.
So it's magic. Not related to electricity then. No electromagnets.
An entirely plausible hypothesis. My point isn't that these are likely scenarios, my point is that you don't know. And, unfortunately for someone trying to deduce it, nobody has run any experiments for us to look at. Presumably nobody has ever even made a coiled wire with a current through it!
u/Kuratius [+1] (a day later)
An entirely plausible hypothesis. My point isn't that these are likely scenarios, my point is that you don't know. And, unfortunately for someone trying to deduce it, nobody has run any experiments for us to look at. Presumably nobody has ever even made a coiled wire with a current through it!
Well, my point is that for some of these things, we don't have to run experiments. We can exclude them a priori due to certain mathematical theorems, e.g. calculus. I don't have to run an experiment to know that calculus is true. Similarly, I don't have to run an experiment to know that a vector field is going to fulfill stokes theorem if it is continuous and doesn't contain a singularity. Much of what physics today consists of is just math that will always stay applicable, no matter how the details actually work out. In a similar fashion, any mathematical theorem true in our universe, will also be true in theirs, no matter how the underlying physics actually work.
u/Veedrac [+1] (a day later)
I'm not making claims about math, I'm making claims about physics.
u/Kuratius [+1] (a day later)
To provide a more concrete example, F=m*d^2 / dt^2 x is physics, but it's at the level of math because of calculus. You can't reasonably construct a universe where velocity, acceleration, position, and time are not linked in this way at human scales without making it unihabitable by humans. Similarly, you can find other phenomena you can't reasonably break. Wave phenomena being linked to disturbance with a finite speed of propagation is one of them; any conservative field having a curl of 0 everywhere applies as well. Many of the things you'd think of as physics are at their heart mathematical truths.
Hypothesis: Light is formed from long conical filaments that reach out from light sources. They interact only weakly. Filaments have a maximum distance determined stochastically; the reason light appears to dim with distance is that some filaments reach their maximum distance. Presumably the distance of a filament would be proportional to the energy consumption of the illuminating source.
Then it's not really purely stochastically anymore. Similarly, you break lenses if light does not have a finite speed of propagation. Meaning no human eyes, and no glasses.
Thermodynamics will also knock on your door if you fiddle with absorption or emission coefficients because them not being equal allows you to heat or cool something indefinitely. Heating an object infinitely is rather problematic and actually has universe-breaking applications.
u/Veedrac [+1] (a day later)
You can't reasonably construct a universe where velocity, acceleration, position, and time are not linked in this way at human scales without making it unihabitable by humans.
Proof? Assume "humans" only have to be humanlike at humanlike scales.
Wave phenomena being linked to disturbance with a finite speed of propagation is one of them; any conservative field having a curl of 0 everywhere applies as well.
I think you have this the wrong way around; the latter implies the former, not vice-versa.
Similarly, you break lenses if light does not have a finite speed of propagation. Meaning no human eyes, and no glasses.
Because no renderers have ever modelled refraction without time-discretized models of light...
Thermodynamics will also knock on your door if you fiddle with absorption or emission coefficients because them not being equal allows you to heat or cool something indefinitely. Heating an object infinitely is rather problematic and actually has universe-breaking applications.
Proof? Surely you cannot think that our universe is the only possible universe with conservation of energy? Do you really think that any violation of conservation of energy implies boundary conditions are reachable?
u/Kuratius [+1] (a day later)
I think you have this the wrong way around; the latter implies the former, not vice-versa. If you have energy conservation, you are dealing with a scalar function that tells you which energy you have at which position, up to a constant.
curl grad (scalar function)=0 is a vector identity that applies to any differentiable scalar function. They are equivalent.
Proof? Assume "humans" only have to be humanlike at humanlike scales.
You have to assume that you can measure position and time to satisfiable precision. Then it follows from the difference quotient being a satisfactory approximation of a derivative. The true position function doesn't even have to be strictly differentiable for this to be a useful approximation, as you will be dealing with finite time intervals. Or are you trying to get at the role of mass here?
Proof? It honestly feels like you're just being difficult here. Do you seriously think that our universe is the only possible universe with conservation of energy? Do you really think that any violation of conservation of energy implies boundary conditions are reachable?
For vector fields? Yes. If you lose energy in one direction, you gain it by moving in the other. I can write down an example if you want. Any loop that violates conservation of energy means you can move backwards and gain infinite energy.
As for the proof of the thermodynmic equilibrium situation see Frederick Reif:Fundamentals of Thermodynamics and Statistic page 382. He drew a setup where you need absorption and emission coefficients to be the same if you want to keep thermodynamic equilibrium and energy conservation.
Because no renderers have ever modelled refraction without time-discretized models of light...
As soon as you use snell's law, you have basically already lost because you used the assumption of different speeds implicitly. All known derivations require a finite speed of propagation. I don't think you can derive snells law without that assumption, regardless of whether you use fermat's principle or huygens principle or anything else.
u/Veedrac [+1] (a day later)
I am finding this conversation frustrating, so I'm going to back out before I say something I shouldn't.
u/Kuratius [+1] (a day later)
Before you go, I think Noether's theorem is a good example of my point in that symmetries can imply conserved quantities.
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (18 hours later)
I think you just broke magnets. Magnetism is an effect that occurs at human scales due to special relativity for currents, and a combination of SR and quantum mechanics at small scales.
Good point. Hold on, let me peek inside of the simulation to check.
...
...
Yep, magnets still work. Turns out though that anyone who's tried looking into it too deeply gets their head exploded by magic.
u/Kuratius [+4] (18 hours later)
Yep, magnets still work. Turns out though that anyone who's tried looking into it too deeply gets their head exploded by magic.
Talk about medieval stasis, eh? You know that qualifies as infohazard and can be used maliciously, right?
u/AweKartik777 [+2] (19 hours later)
He probably doesn't mean that anyone who thinks too hard about it dies which is what an infohazard basically is, but probably more like using magic (as they don't have the reliable technology) to peek into quantum forces is dangerous for the user. It's probably like playing with fire and getting burned but on a more deadlier scale, as I guess the magic must be interacting with particles/waves whatever.
u/sykomantis2099 [+1] Custom Flair (52 minutes later)
Edited to add questions I think of them:
How is mana spent, how quickly can it be spent, and how quick does it regenerate?
Can magic users combine forces, like 2 users combining the power put into an energy burst to double the power?
How is complexity measured for telepathy?
Can invigorate be used to affect mana capacity or regeneration and can siphon be used on yourself?
For transformation, is the proportion for calculating mana cost multiplicative or linear? Could I make something zero liters without changing the mass? Does shrinking something act like adding pressure and "squeezing" the target into the desired shape and the reverse for growing? Do the prim people of your world know about tardigrades?
Can you cast luck on yourself multiple times and if so do they stack?
Does soothe have a limitation on distance and is it single target or AOE?
Does hunger/thirst count as damage for rejuvenate and can it heal mental illness? What can't it heal? Can rejuvenate revive dead people?
u/-Vecht- [+2] Legacy of the Goddess (an hour later)
Edited to add questions I think of them:
Please post new replies if you mean to ask new questions, as this is hard for me to track. Also, some of these are answered in the post or in other replies; please also check those.
How is complexity measured for telepathy?
Answered in another post.
Can invigorate be used to affect mana capacity or regeneration and can siphon be used on yourself?
It cannot -- in general it doesn't seem to affect attributes relating to magic.
Can you cast luck on yourself multiple times and if so do they stack?
Yes, and yes.
Does soothe have a limitation on distance and is it single target or AOE?
It is single target. All abilities have limits on distance.
Does hunger/thirst count as damage for rejuvenate and can it heal mental illness? What can't it heal? Can rejuvenate revive dead people?
Extreme hunger/thirst can count as damage for breaking the effect, but it doesn't make you not hungry or not thirsty. It cannot heal mental illness or revive dead people.
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (56 minutes later)
- By using magic abilities
- No limit besides time cost of abilities
- Depends on the user's level of expertise, but for one with adequate training, about 10% of their total capacity per minute.
u/sykomantis2099 [+1] Custom Flair (an hour later)
A patient mage can scry anywhere on the planet with minimal starting mana by scrying themselves and then paying the cost to move their view at a rate slower than their mana regeneration.
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (an hour later)
A patient traveler can do the same.
u/sykomantis2099 [+1] Custom Flair (an hour later)
With significantly more risk. If the answers to my other questions go the right way then you could either indefinitely power a mage in a secret secure location scry for and soothe an enemy into complacency or have mages working in shifts to do the same.
This reminds me, can a mage take over the casting for a spell for another mage in the middle of it, like passing a baton?
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (an hour later)
With significantly more risk.
Sure.
This reminds me, can a mage take over the casting for a spell for another mage in the middle of it, like passing a baton?
They cannot.
u/LuckyWandering [+1] (22 hours later)
does 'move their view' here mean effectively 'move their body'? So effectively something the equivalent of a tank without the weak spots required for viewing the outside? Or am I not understanding this correctly?
u/None [+1] (55 minutes later)
The user concentrates on a form, and then charges and releases a burst of energy which fills that form. The energy can be in whatever form the user imagines (with restrictions on color of magic used; blue=water/ice, red=fire, green=electric or nature-based, prismatic=no restriction). The energy released (in terms of Joules) is proportional to the magic spent.
I only have a high school education of physics, but this doesn't really makes sense to me. If you're releasing water/ice as energy, because of e=MC^2, it's going to take a ton of joules to produce a little energy. And fire is a chemical reaction, if you're getting detailed what exactly is "fire" energy? Is it just a release of heat and light and sound, or is there any chemical reactions being produced?
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (an hour later)
I only have a high school education of physics, but this doesn't really makes sense to me. If you're releasing water/ice as energy, because of e=MC
2,
it's going to take a ton of joules to produce a little energy. And fire is a chemical reaction, if you're getting detailed what exactly is "fire" energy? Is it just a release of heat and light and sound, or is there any chemical reactions being produced?
Apologies, I updated this one after posting to provide more detail as it was definitely too vague. The energy is only the difference in heat, or the kinetic energy imparted. The products of the ability dissipate mere moments after use.
Regarding "fire" or "ice" -- this is a weird thing that nobody really understands, but for some reason, Blue magic lets you create ice-based forms and Red lets you create fire-based forms.
u/BelloSoup [+1] (an hour later)
Telepathy seems like it could be incredibly powerful in combat. Just make the "message" into a loud shrieking sound to distract the enemies. And since a shriek is not that complex at all, it'll be relatively cheap. For instance, in a battle between armies, one could prepare large amounts of cheap imbued telepathic items just to mindblast the enemies making them effectively confused.
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (an hour later)
Telepathy seems like it could be incredibly powerful in combat. Just make the "message" into a loud shrieking sound to distract the enemies. And since a shriek is not that complex at all, it'll be relatively cheap. For instance, in a battle between armies, one could prepare large amounts of cheap imbued telepathic items just to mindblast the enemies making them effectively confused.
Sorry, this is not a valid use of telepathy. It communicates words, not sounds.
u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+6] (an hour later)
Can you get several casters to spam a target with telepathy and thus drown out their thoughts/telepathic messages from their allies?
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (an hour later)
This works, and is a tactic I hadn't considered. Please PM me if you'd like payment.
E: Agreed to use reddit gold.
u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+2] (2 hours later)
Hmm, it occurs to me that this tactic would give the goblin-things a huge advantage over the not-elves. After all, the not-elves rely heavily on coordination to beat the goblin-things, coordination which probably heavily relies on telepathy. Meanwhile the goblin-things can win wars just fine without any coordination, and have tons of novice mages that have no issue casting the (probably) cheap telepathy spell.
One way to patch this, and even improve the not-elves coordination, would be to allow weighted telepathic messages: make it so casters can expend more mana on the telepathy spell to give their messages more weight, and make it so that all messages received by a target are queued up in order of weight and played one by one. This way the goblin-thing novice mages can only cast low-weight telepathic messages, while the not-elves powerful mages can send out high-weight telepathic messages. The not-elves can even weight their messages according to their command rank, so important strategic messages from central headquarters are queued up before messages from low-ranking field officers.
u/akaltyn [+1] (2 days later)
or elf soldiers train to filter telepathic messages in their brain the same way people can pick out noise from a crowd
u/BelloSoup [+1] (an hour later)
Is the volume interchangeable? Like would it be possible to just say "Hello" really loud and drawn out.
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (an hour later)
This doesn't work.
u/destravous [+1] (2 hours later)
How loud are those words when received?(Loudness as in how much attention do they draw?)
If the caster can't alter that (the attention drawn by telepathic words), then what properties can they alter? If they can't alter any properties then it would sound like a monotone computer voice and couldn't be distinguished. (and therefore also open to abuse faking commands/impersonation?)
Also, what stops a person from inventing a loud distracting word in an obscure language and transmitting that?
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (2 hours later)
How loud are those words when received?(Loudness as in how much attention do they draw?)
If the caster can't alter that (the attention drawn by telepathic words), then what properties can they alter? If they can't alter any properties then it would sound like a monotone computer voice and couldn't be distinguished. (and therefore also open to abuse faking commands/impersonation?)
Also, what stops a person from inventing a loud distracting word in an obscure language and transmitting that?
The words conveyed are transmitted to the target in a normal speaking voice.
u/LuckyWandering [+1] (22 hours later)
You say above that 'words' are conveyed rather than 'sounds'. Might this not imply that 'ideas' are conveyed rather than sound? And they are understood as words because that's how people convey ideas (fitting with the need to be understood by the receiving party.
This would make the issue of volume moot, but raises questions about intonation.
Perhaps receivers can also mentally add perceived 'intonation' to messages based on their knowledge of the sender and the specifics of the 'idea' conveyed? (But this intonation would be open to misunderstanding, and also leaves open how intonation is perceived for persons not known by the receiver.)Also, in line with questions asked above - which properties Are transmitted?
- Is the 'sender' automatically transmitted/known? Can this be faked?
- Does one have to be willing to receive messages? (the spamming above suggests not) If yes, can this be selective or is it all or nothing?
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (a day later)
More or less, you sub-vocalize some string of words to yourself, and then that gets transmitted when you use the ability (with some weird bits in the middle handled by the magic). This allows for shifts in intonation related to speech but not for volume changes.
- Is the 'sender' automatically transmitted/known? Can this be faked?
The sender is automatically known if the recipient knows them. Otherwise they just hear a voice.
(Just to head this off, I've covered a lot of ground myself on this topic. Don't be surprised if I've already thought of ideas.)
u/Kerbal_NASA [+1] (an hour later)
I'm confused about the mana cost of Energy Burst, is it supposed to be arbitrary? Because that wording makes it sound like putting in 1.2 joules of energy could cost 5 billion MP, putting in 1.21 could cost a few MP and putting in enough energy to create black hole could cost 73 MP (74 on Mondays!).
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (an hour later)
I was hesitant to put actual numbers, but I have updated this because I agree it is confusing and vague.
The user concentrates on a form, and then charges and releases a burst of energy which fills that form. The energy can be in whatever form the user imagines (with restrictions on color of magic used; blue=water/ice-based, red=fire-based, green=electric, air, or nature-based, prismatic=no restriction). The energy released (heat change or kinetic energy imparted in terms of Joules) is limited to 100J change in physical energy per MP spent. The forms created in this manner are temporary; the ability is not known to create permanent objects.
u/Kerbal_NASA [+1] (3 hours later)
Can I put in 0 joules? Because it says time to cast is proportional to energy and so is MP. So if I put 0 joules into the object it will be instant and take no MP. With prismatic energy form I can create an infinite array of whatever objects I want and the only restriction is that they aren't permanent. For example, I could create a bajillion copies of a barrel of black powder with a fuse about to go off, and place its form across the entire plains of the goblins (there's also no stated restriction on the location of the forms object). Insta-victory!
Putting MP restrictions on creating the form of the object is a little bit complicated. You could create a cost to create the form based on its mass-energy but then the "putting energy in to it" doesn't make much sense anymore with Earth physics (creating a kilogram of water is about the same as creating a kilogram of super heated hydrogen/oxygen plasma). You'd be fine ignoring General relativity, charging some MP per unit mass, and per unit thermal/kinetic/chemical energy.
But then there's an issue with kinetic energy and Imbue Object. Kinetic Energy has to be defined with respect to something, and if its the caster then you can create an arbitrarily tiny mass object so that a tiny amount of kinetic energy makes it still go arbitrarily fast, imbue object on it to give it the ability to cast Energy Burst and then that object can create other objects going the same speed as it (so 0 kinetic energy from its perspective). Then you have a normal size object moving arbitrarily fast. Ouch.
In addition to all this you make fraud an irritating concern for anyone with known prismatic abilities because with arbitrary form creation you can create any object (like say an official seal or a bar of gold) and as long as the con happens before it dissipates you're solid.
Here's how I would solve it in a way that retains as many of the original characteristics as possible. I would say:
- You can place a magical marker on an arbitrarily amount of objects.
- The process of placing the marker is fragile, super easy to break with access to the object, takes a long time, etc. (so placing it on goblin brains isn't a thing).
- The object will teleport in front of the mage, paying a cost for any differences in speed/altitude (between the caster and the object) (this is to pay for kinetic energy/gravitational potential energy), and then energy can be put into it.
This way, the mages just prepare by marking a bunch of water/air/arbitrary object and then everything after is basically the same. The red colour mages would have to change from fire to combustibles. Also, there's annoyance because the Earth rotates so if you walk away from the object far enough you start paying some kinetic energy cost (if its on the other side of the equator and its like earth you have to change its speed by 1700 km/hr), but you can just assume that the planet is big enough with respect to the mountains/plains that it wouldn't make much difference in a military campaign.
Also I have to go now so I didn't get time to do my typical proofreading/seeing if other comments came up which make this duplicated, sorry about that.
u/-Vecht- [+2] Legacy of the Goddess (3 hours later)
No.
E: Apologies for being blunt here, but it's costly to reply to things like this. This post is much more "fanciful R.A.W. munchkinry" than what I am trying to incentivize. My intention, and why I've spent so much time answering/reanswering questions, is for people to try and reason from the information I've given to understand what the magic system is "supposed" to be doing and how it's "supposed" to work, as I intend it and not necessarily as the words I've written might imply on a strict reading. From there, I am happy to award bounties if people give me useful/fun ideas or point out setting-breaking issues.
u/Kerbal_NASA [+1] (6 hours later)
Ok, fair enough, but you should still say there's some cost to spawning things, or else its just the spawn infinite material power. Also kinetic energy issues.
u/vaegrim [+1] (17 hours later)
I'd have expected E=MC^2 to guide the costs of matter creation as compared to energy, save that
- that'd make object creation nigh-impossible
- object creation is temporary where energy creation seems permanent.
This implies the formula is actually being divided by some factor of "time".
u/Kerbal_NASA [+1] (20 hours later)
Well my main objection is that chemical/thermal energy is a tiny tiny fraction of the mass-energy of an object (for everyday objects). So that means creating a super heated plasma (or high explosive, but there's issues with tech level and this only applies to prismatic mages) requires just about as much MP as a normal form. So if you can create normal everyday objects then you are also a one-mage fusion reactor and possessor of incredible destructive power. That's why I was tempted to just say special/general relativity (and therefore E=mc^2) isn't a thing in-universe and just making mass a separate cost (but then there were other issues).
u/CFCrispyBacon [+1] (an hour later)
•Telepathy on known locations, like a dedicated "radio room" in fortifications, or having one party stay fixed and the other report their location when they sign off. A coordinate system that communicates where the sender will be moving to in as few data points as possible would be useful (like GPS coordinates)
•Telepathy communicating bare minimum information over longer distances then your enemy can be very useful. "On/Off", "Yes/No", or a codebook for numbers for preset messages would allow armies to coordinate quickly over long distances. That in turn allows you to cover a wider area with less men.
•Scry would be GREAT for artillery spotting.
•Use Foretelling to answer questions with the least number of potential outcomes, with the maximum amount of MP. Better then guessing is still advantageous when you only have a small number of variables.
•Imbuing Energy Bursts seems to be the best use of an Expert's time, if a little boring (especially if you can spend your MP when you know it won't be useable otherwise, or make an Imbued/Siphon battery to hold MP until later). Imbued massive explosions make good artillery, landmines for treacherous mountain passes, maybe even phaser blasts at range.
•Can you Energy Burst inside a person's body?
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (2 hours later)
•Telepathy on known locations, like a dedicated "radio room" in fortifications, or having one party stay fixed and the other report their location when they sign off. A coordinate system that communicates where the sender will be moving to in as few data points as possible would be useful (like GPS coordinates)
•Telepathy communicating bare minimum information over longer distances then your enemy can be very useful. "On/Off", "Yes/No", or a codebook for numbers for preset messages would allow armies to coordinate quickly over long distances. That in turn allows you to cover a wider area with less men.
Yep; good ideas but this is not something I haven't considered.
•Imbuing Energy Bursts seems to be the best use of an Expert's time, if a little boring (especially if you can spend your MP when you know it won't be useable otherwise, or make an Imbued/Siphon battery to hold MP until later). Imbued massive explosions make good artillery, landmines for treacherous mountain passes, maybe even phaser blasts at range.
Mostly I don't think this is going to be very useful except for cantrips. Expert mages might be able to create one-time use items that are pretty nifty, but not the level of explosions or phaser blasts. This is intentional.
•Can you Energy Burst inside a person's body?
You cannot.
u/hikahia [+1] (3 hours later)
Can you Energy Burst inside a person's body?You cannot.
What about inside the ear canal, or mouth?
u/-Vecht- [+2] Legacy of the Goddess (4 hours later)
Posted this in another comment: The energy travels via some illusory medium from the caster to the target. This cannot be used to directly affect a small area inside of someone's body.
You could maybe aim it very carefully to shoot an icicle through someone's eye or the like. This is completely fine and is adequately modeled by the game systems.
u/hikahia [+2] (4 hours later)
Ahh, I'm not worried about the bounty. I did see that comment, but I was quibbling over the definition of 'inside the body' because the others you'd replied to had discussed brain stem and other internals, while mouth or ear canal technically are outside, I was curious if that would make a difference. For example, imagine the form of a 10mm diameter sphere of fire/plasma/lava/electricity inside someones ear canal.
I hadn't thought about the definition of target though. How is the target set and defined? You mention being able to imagine a form, and then releasing a burst of energy which fills that form, but where does the form appear and how much control does the caster have over the appearance location?
u/cactus_head [+1] (an hour later)
Some tangential questions about the setting:
Disease does not exist in this world.
How and why is that? Are there microorganisms that don't cause disease? Do parasites exist, either of the sapient races or of wild animals and such?
Any color can be used to power Prismatic abilities, and Prismatic Energy may be used to power any color of magic ability. Further, Prismatic energy does not naturally occur, but Blue, Red and Green energies may be combined in equal parts to form Prismatic energy, with all due implications.
To clarify, could you use (for example) 100 red mages, 1 blue mage, and 1 green mage to cast prismatic magic at the level of ~102 mages? 1 of each colour for the initial prismatic cast and the extra 99 to provide extra juice after.
Ideas for the setting:
You didn't specify that transformations have a time limit, and it's not clear what exactly the benefits of mastering a form are other than the time to transform into that form being shortened. Regarding the not-elves tending to lose in 1-1 fights or evenly matched skirmishes, I thought of the not-elves having dedicated red mages for the purpose of transforming willing soldiers into more powerful forms---stronger and faster versions of themselves, or deadly wilderness creatures, or even goblin-things. I'd expect the mass/volume limits to be the biggest bottleneck.
A force of soldiers transformed in this way would be most effectively placed as border patrollers, or they could be used to make inroads into the fertile plains. Could they transform into, say, venomous snakes that weigh as much as a not-elf? Would the venom injected into other creatures persist if the transformation was undone?
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (2 hours later)
How and why is that? Are there microorganisms that don't cause disease? Do parasites exist, either of the sapient races or of wild animals and such?
I leave that for you to ponder.
To clarify, could you use (for example) 100 red mages, 1 blue mage, and 1 green mage to cast prismatic magic at the level of ~102 mages? 1 of each colour for the initial prismatic cast and the extra 99 to provide extra juice after.
This does not work. It isn't number of mages but the magic itself. 3 red MP + 3 blue MP + 3 green MP = 9 prismatic MP.
You didn't specify that transformations have a time limit, and it's not clear what exactly the benefits of mastering a form are other than the time to transform into that form being shortened. Regarding the not-elves tending to lose in 1-1 fights or evenly matched skirmishes, I thought of the not-elves having dedicated red mages for the purpose of transforming willing soldiers into more powerful forms---stronger and faster versions of themselves, or deadly wilderness creatures, or even goblin-things. I'd expect the mass/volume limits to be the biggest bottleneck.
Yep. This is intentional.
A force of soldiers transformed in this way would be most effectively placed as border patrollers, or they could be used to make inroads into the fertile plains. Could they transform into, say, venomous snakes that weigh as much as a not-elf? Would the venom injected into other creatures persist if the transformation was undone?
You could transform into a snake with all of the abilities of a snake, yes.
u/hikahia [+1] (18 hours later)
A force of soldiers transformed in this way would be most effectively placed as border patrollers, or they could be used to make inroads into the fertile plains. Could they transform into, say, venomous snakes that weigh as much as a not-elf? Would the venom injected into other creatures persist if the transformation was undone?
You could transform into a snake with all of the abilities of a snake, yes
So, it seems to me that you could easily wipe out your enemies just by converting your soldiers into something like Inland Taipan snakes, and send them out in groups of 5-10 per enemy leader. 5-10 human intelligence super venomous snakes seem like they would be a pretty unstoppable assassination team. Hell, do a team of 5-10 where every member is a different small deadly venomous animal so you have more flexibility, that way your whole plan isn't stymied by the victims pet mongoose.
I can't imagine trying to keep my environment free of ALL spiders, snakes, scorpions, frogs, etc, ALL the time, when those creatures have human intelligence and an interest in my death.
u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+1] (2 hours later)
How does transformation calculate your weight/size? Can you eat lots of things to get super heavy and fat and thus transform yourself into a more powerful creature? Can you surgically transplant organs/skin/fat from other people into your own body, thus further increasing your weight/volume? Can you iteratively transform yourself into a starving creature of roughly the same weight and volume, eat until you're stuffed, then transform again, effectively increasing your weight and volume without limits (other than things to eat)?
After that, you can transform into a massive behemoth to curb stomp all your enemies. You just have to keep yourself somewhat injured at all times so your transformation can't be dispelled by an enemy heal, although maybe not even that if goblins can't cast heal.
u/-Vecht- [+2] Legacy of the Goddess (2 hours later)
How does transformation calculate your weight/size? Can you eat lots of things to get super heavy and fat and thus transform yourself into a more powerful creature? Can you surgically transplant organs/skin/fat from other people into your own body, thus further increasing your weight/volume? Can you iteratively transform yourself into a starving creature of roughly the same weight and volume, eat until you're stuffed, then transform again, effectively increasing your weight and volume without limits (other than things to eat)?
It is delta from base form. Surgical transplants, no. Iterative transformations do not work.
After that, you can transform into a massive behemoth to curb stomp all your enemies. You just have to keep yourself somewhat injured at all times so your transformation can't be dispelled by an enemy heal, although maybe not even that if goblins can't cast heal.
I realize the wording was vague, but heal isn't an all-purpose dispel for transformation. It can be used on a willing target to reverse a transformation that was imposed on them unwillingly.
u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+2] (2 hours later)
Surgical transplants, no. Iterative transformations do not work.
Aw.
It is delta from base form.
Hmm... but what is the base form? Fats and muscles count right? What about hair? Can you grow out your hair to ridiculous lengths? What about cancer? Can you expose yourself to radiation and grow massive tumors to increase your weight/volume?
And what about reproduction while in a transformed state? Say two people invest large amounts of mana to transform themselves into large fertile creatures of the opposite sex. For simplicity suppose they just transform into larger versions of themselves. They then reproduce. Would the base form of their children then be a larger version of their species? Can they iteratively increase in weight/volume over the generations?
Or perhaps an even faster method: asexual reproduction. Can you transform yourself into something like a giant amoeba, and then undergo mitosis to create two copies of yourself? Actually you wouldn't even need to be giant in this case, you can just rapidly reproduce to get a large numerical advantage in war.
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (3 hours later)
Hmm... but what is the base form? Fats and muscles count right? What about hair? Can you grow out your hair to ridiculous lengths? What about cancer? Can you expose yourself to radiation and grow massive tumors to increase your weight/volume?
I... guess? This would probably kill you sooner than be useful, though.
And what about reproduction while in a transformed state? Say two people invest large amounts of mana to transform themselves into large fertile creatures of the opposite sex. For simplicity suppose they just transform into larger versions of themselves. They then reproduce. Would the base form of their children then be a larger version of their species? Can they iteratively increase in weight/volume over the generations?
Transformation doesn't allow fine-grained control, and only allows changes to mass and volume aside from the shape-shifting effect. I suppose you could transform into a creature of the opposite sex or attempt to reproduce with another transformed individual. As this is a problematic edge-case that I didn't consider, I will reward this with a bounty and add a caveat that Transformation doesn't allow you to reproduce or to impregnate anything while transformed.
Or perhaps an even faster method: asexual reproduction. Can you transform yourself into something like a giant amoeba, and then undergo mitosis to create two copies of yourself? Actually you wouldn't even need to be giant in this case, you can just rapidly reproduce to get a large numerical advantage in war.
Has to be based off of the user's experience of actual organisms, and the transformation doesn't let you skirt around physical limitations that would prevent a creature like that from existing in the first place.
u/sdmat [+1] (2 hours later)
Energy burst seems exploitable, even with a 100J limit.
If the definition of 'form' allows imparting energy within living beings then applying 100J of kinetic energy to someone's brainstem is going to instantly kill them. Localized heating would do the same if the total volume is small (e.g. heat a plane of brain tissue).
u/-Vecht- [+2] Legacy of the Goddess (2 hours later)
Energy burst seems exploitable, even with a 100J limit.
If the definition of 'form' allows imparting energy within living beings then applying 100J of kinetic energy to someone's brainstem is going to instantly kill them. Localized heating would do the same if the total volume is small (e.g. heat a plane of brain tissue).
It's 100J per MP spent. The energy travels via some illusory medium from the caster to the target. This cannot be used to directly affect a small area inside of someone's body.
u/sdmat [+1] (4 hours later)
Ah, then a minutely thin line a few centimeters wide should do it. Wider if feeling showy!
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (4 hours later)
Yep, and I believe this will be adequately modeled by my game system. Cool idea though.
u/sdmat [+1] (9 hours later)
Hmm, are you sure about that? 1MP to kill quickly and easily seems on the low side, unless your intent is that magic users are overwhelmingly lethal when in range.
The obvious limit on the effectiveness of cutting this way is the energy required to break chemical bonds intersecting a plane and shear slightly to prevent clean rebonding. That's not much so it's going to allow scything a lot of people at once for that single mana point if they are in range.
Maybe special armor could make the energy cost higher, either a magical counter or a very strongly bonded material (diamond?).
If chemical bonds count as quantum physics then the natural interpretation would be to extrapolate the macroscopic relationship between sharpness and cutting energy indefinitely, and for cutting to become a first class effect (i.e. that which is severed stays severed as there there is no chemical rebonding). That leads to the absurd result of being able to dice up everything in range for arbitrarily little energy. So you probably want to keep chemical bonds, or come up with some mechanism with similar properties.
u/None [+1] (4 hours later)
[deleted]
u/ilI1il1Ili1i1liliiil [+1] (10 hours later)
The first thing I'd do in this setting is to imbue a lot of rings with Heal, Rejuvenate and Luck. 50+ rings and you'd be very, very hard to kill. Why isn't everyone doing this? It may be too expensive, but it should at least factor into any fight to some degree.
You may want to put a limit on the number of imbued objects you can wear. The Wandering Inn handles this by saying that the magic in enchanted objects interfere with each other, so you can only wear 3-4 pieces at once, unless they are very carefully crafted (and thus expensive). How many imbued objects can you wear? If there is a limit, why?
u/asuffield [+1] (13 hours later)
Transformation permits mass changes. Given a system of gravity that resembles human-observed behaviour, this can be used to generate arbitrary amounts of energy, because it's no more expensive to change mass from greater heights.
For a worked example, a magic-to-rotation engine design would be a vertical conveyor belt with a set of baskets attached. In each basket, we place one mouse. At the top of the belt stands a magician, who transforms mice into cows as they pass. At the bottom of the belt stands another magician, who transforms cows into mice. The weight of the cows turns the belt and carries the mice back to the top. The energy produced is proportional to the height of the belt, so you can make an arbitrarily large amount of energy from a fixed amount of MP.
If you don't want this class of exploits to be possible, you're going to need conservation of mass.
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (18 hours later)
Transformation permits mass changes. Given a system of gravity that resembles human-observed behaviour, this can be used to generate arbitrary amounts of energy, because it's no more expensive to change mass from greater heights.
For a worked example, a magic-to-rotation engine design would be a vertical conveyor belt with a set of baskets attached. In each basket, we place one mouse. At the top of the belt stands a magician, who transforms mice into cows as they pass. At the bottom of the belt stands another magician, who transforms cows into mice. The weight of the cows turns the belt and carries the mice back to the top. The energy produced is proportional to the height of the belt, so you can make an arbitrarily large amount of energy from a fixed amount of MP.
If you don't want this class of exploits to be possible, you're going to need conservation of mass.
Cow: 600 kg, 2000 L Rat: 3 kg, 2 L Delta kg: 587 Delta L: 1998 MP to transform: proportional to 2585 (not giving exact numbers but very expensive) Time to transform: 2585 minutes (43 hours)This is prohibitively expensive.
Cow: 600 kg, 2000 L Smaller Cow: 500 kg, 1700 L Delta kg: 100 Delta L: 300 MP to transform: proportional to 400 Time to transform: 400 minutes (~7 hours)Doable but also very expensive. Probably would require a lot of practice to get time cost down to more usable levels.
At a height of 10m, the large cow has a potential energy of 60kJ. Lets say we can harvest 95% of that, so 57kJ. We then have to change the cow to a smaller cow (some amount proportional to 400 MP), and then hoist it back up, which will cost 49kJ. The energy gained is about 8kJ. Even with 400 MP, you could use Energy Burst to get 40kJ directly.
Conclusion: Nope, sorry. :)
u/Flashbunny [+1] (14 hours later)
Is Scry limited to a few metres above the ground, or a few metres above any point under open sky? I can't see why it would be the former, but the latter would be incredibly useful for seeing whole battlefields and scouting. In fact, it would make sense to have some not-elves on watch for the not-goblin hordes suddenly gaining a vague sense of cohesion, which would give advance warning that there's a thinker in there - and then seeing where they go, and thus what areas need to be reinforced.
Imbue Object and Siphon seem like they should be combinable to make storing MP possible - Imbue an object with whatever enchantment stores the most magic (an enchantment designed to do exactly that would be ideal) and let it recharge over time, and repeat this process. When a storing-magic-item is fully recharged, Siphon it and use that magic to create more magic items, accelerating the creation of them. Eventually you will have enough magic recharging that your civilisation will be recharging magic faster than it can cast it. It might take a while, but as a nationwide project this should be doable.Nevermind, someone else got there first.Transformation says nothing about the mind of the user - is this preserved? If not, transforming into any different species (animals etc.) is suicide, as is any transformation where you aren't specifying "but with the same brain". Also, is it possible to transform into "myself, but smarter"?
u/BlueSigil [+1] (15 hours later)
Can you hack foretelling by foretelling something you commit to doing in response to events? Draw a line a hundred meters long, and place a pebble in the middle of it. Ask yourself some question about the future, like will the army win the battle? Commit to casting foretelling every day for a hundred days. At the end of the time, place the pebble at the far left for victory and the far right for defeat. Use foretelling each day to check where you will have moved the pebble tomorrow.
If I understand this correctly, on the first day the pebble should immediately jump a large amount to the left or right due to averaging.
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (19 hours later)
Can you hack foretelling by foretelling something you commit to doing in response to events? Draw a line a hundred meters long, and place a pebble in the middle of it. Ask yourself some question about the future, like will the army win the battle? Commit to casting foretelling every day for a hundred days. At the end of the time, place the pebble at the far left for victory and the far right for defeat. Use foretelling each day to check where you will have moved the pebble tomorrow.
Foretelling can't be used to target anything specifically, but you could record your experiences and get more information in aggregate. This is intentional.
If I understand this correctly, on the first day the pebble should immediately jump a large amount to the left or right due to averaging
This does not work.
u/Gurkenglas [+1] (15 hours later)
Minimize Scry's duration to maximize its range. Repeat for staggered glimpses of anywhere.
Would Luck help in a brainstorming session on magic exploits?
Candidate law of magic: Luck isn't self-aware. Luck exactly can't influence events its existence caused, because it doesn't see them coming. If someone notices that Luck prevents bodily harm more strongly than events the target doesn't like, he may cast Luck on a bauble to crush it if events don't turn out to his liking. He will find that Luck doesn't know to satisfy him, because it can't figure out that he might crush it, because he only does that because Luck exists.
In a Too clever for their own good scenario, an archmage may wander the countryside to seek an ignorant dabbler who tries to rediscover Magic on his own. The dabbler must never notice or be influenced by the archmage, for he set out on his quest because Luck exists. If the dabbler ever imagines a Fortune spell without the self-ignorance complication and tries to improvise a casting (achieving no more than waving his arms), the archmage would surreptitiously cast Luck on the dabbler. The outcome of the dabbler's experiments would then reveal to the archmage whether Luck's blind spot also covers nearby concepts such as the hypothetical Fortune spell. If it doesn't, he will discover just why the Atlanteans built a self-ignorance clause into their Wish spell.
Are some future events easier to Foretell than others? I imagine a great beacon constructed for visibility to past Beacon Foretellers. Light it when the Goblins unite under a general once more to warn Elven civilization decades back to raise a generation of soldiers. Depending on how your time loops work, a yet more ambituous project could iterate through policies: If the policies you received work, send them back again. If they don't, vary them using what you learned. Beware that the time loop may resolve to a Goblin general, rebelling noble or third party sending back that which allowed him to conquer the Elves. Instructions may include magic exploits such as how to construct a better temporal telegraph.
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (19 hours later)
Minimize Scry's time component to maximize its range.
That's not how it works. Apologies for confusing definition.
Candidate law of magic: Luck isn't self-aware. Luck exactly can't influence events its existence caused, because it doesn't see them coming. If someone notices that luck prevents bodily harm more strongly than events the target doesn't like, he may cast luck on a bauble to crush it if events don't turn out to his liking. He will find that Luck doesn't know to satisfy him, because it can't figure out that he might crush it, because he only does that because Luck exists.
Thanks, but Luck already has laws -- I am just unwilling to share them.
Are some future events easier to Foretell than others? I imagine a great beacon constructed for visibility to past Beacon Foretellers. Light it when the Goblins unite under a general once more to warn Elven civilization decades back to raise a generation of soldiers. Depending on how your time loops work, a yet more ambituous project could iterate through policies: If the policies you received work, send them back again. If they don't, vary them using what you learned. Beware that the time loop may resolve to a Goblin general, rebelling noble or third party sending back that which allowed him to conquer the Elves. Instructions may include magic exploits such as how to construct a better temporal telegraph.
Foretelling and time in general doesn't work like that.
u/vaegrim [+1] (18 hours later)
Does Rejuvinate apply to MP recovery? If so, then the effects of Rejuvenate persist until your MP has completely recovered. In that case would mana loss to siphon be construed as "damage"? What about mana loss from spell-casting?
Are sapients the only beings with magic sensitivity or can, say, plants naturally accumulate Green magic? If not, could using Invigorate to increase sapience (reason? wisdom?) expose a latent sensitivity in plants or animals?
Can you use Imbue Object on a person? If so, do the imbued spells drain from their MP or does the Imbue create a second Prismatic pool? If it creates a prismatic pool can the target access it if they're already sensitive to a color?
Energy Burst fills a "form" with energy and prismatic energy has no restrictions on what that form is. It's stated that matter created with the form is temporary, but the implication is that energy is permanent. That is to say, if you burn something with a Red Energy Burst it doesn't "un burn" a little while later. In that case, you should be able to use a Prismatic energy burst to channel MP directly into a target without siphon by treating the target as the "form". If so, this WOULD allow for mana batteries. They're Imbued Objects with huge base charges that can prismatic burst mana directly into their user.
u/vaegrim [+1] (18 hours later)
Further, Prismatic energy does not naturally occur, but Blue, Red and Green energies may be combined in equal parts to form Prismatic energy, with all due implications.
That's a bit odd; presumably if each individual color occurs naturally and can combine to create Prismatic energy, there should be conditions for Prismatic energy to naturally arise also.
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (19 hours later)
Does Rejuvinate apply to MP recovery?
Nope.
Are sapients the only beings with magic sensitivity or can, say, plants naturally accumulate Green magic? If not, could using Invigorate to increase sapience (reason? wisdom?) expose a latent sensitivity in plants or animals?
People have tried this on multiple occasions. It has never turned out well.
Can you use Imbue Object on a person?
Nope.
u/vaegrim [+1] (21 hours later)
People have tried this on multiple occasions. It has never turned out well.
So you can Invigorate mental abilities? How did that work out on people, because I'd imagine in such cases super-intelligence becomes a prerequisite to any upper-level strategic/planning work.
u/ishaan123 [+1] Sidebar Contestant (18 hours later)
I think the ability of some people to transform into birds has a rather large number of important implications. For instance:
> The goblin-things still hold the fertile plains
If your enemy can ambush you and slaughter you in large numbers with basically zero casualties, *and* has a birds eye view of the landscape, are the goblins really going to be holding *plains*? The goblins should be underground, or in a dense forest, or somewhere similarly dense with cover where the enemy can't simply be dropping exploding rocks from the sky on them with total impunity.
> people live in walled communities and typically only travel via caravan
Are you *sure* it's not easier, safer, faster, cheaper to go to your local travel-and-post-office, staffed by a red mage who will turn you into a rat for an hour and then put you into a little sack, to be carried by people who have mastered bird form whose job it is to constantly be making trips between villages, gizzard filled with lucky healing rocks, mail, and a sack of people-transformed-into-small-animals in their talons? Or if you can automatically learn to fly upon becoming a bird, have them make you into a bird directly and pay for your trip by carrying letters and stuff for other people.
This gets all the more powerful once you get to large cities, which presumably have a couple Magic-Pillars-Of-Turning-Into-A-Bird or disposable Stamps of Knowing Telepathy at the post and travel office or something.
P.S. I think transformations to something of identical volume and mass are cost-less under this system? I don't think you want people turning into teenage dragons or something at no mana cost.
P.P.S. Psychiatrists are definitely going to be spamming Soothe all the time, surgery is really easy now because you can heal afterwards, if telepathy doesn't care about distance then this is probably a primary form of distance communication (use codexes and pre-agreed upon shorthands to increase privacy and decrease message complexity),
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (19 hours later)
I think the ability of some people to transform into birds has a rather large number of important implications.
I actually knew Transformation was insanely broken going into this, despite my attempts to limit it or patch it beforehand. I still included it because I wanted to find novel ways to break it and was happy to pay people to do the work for me. It's a really cool ability, but also really hard to keep it from destroying everything. It's going to take a lot more work if I do decide to keep it in some heavily restricted form.
u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+1] (a day later)
The new form of transformation may lead to severe discrimination. Mages will cast transformation spells on babies to see their predetermined form, and their entire lives may be decided in that instant. If they have a powerful form, they get revered and lavished with power and money. If they have a weak form, they may be abandoned and left to die in a ditch somewhere.
u/ishaan123 [+1] Sidebar Contestant (a day later)
Why do you have to nerf things at all though? Part of the fun of hard fantasy is that the magic *changes* things. All the various practical applications of transformation sound Fun to me. (And if a hard fantasy story isn't the story you're trying to tell...well, in that case it doesn't really matter if it's not logically consistent right?)
u/-Vecht- [+2] Legacy of the Goddess (a day later)
Why do you have to nerf things at all though? Part of the fun of hard fantasy is that the magic *changes* things. All the various practical applications of transformation sound Fun to me. (And if a hard fantasy story isn't the story you're trying to tell...well, in that case it doesn't really matter if it's not logically consistent right?)
Without giving too much away, the magic presented here is kind of auxiliary to other things that are much more influential. But it's still important to get the magic right, and make sure that it doesn't have implications which would make the setting inconsistent, given I also care about making it rational and simulationist.
u/stasersonphun [+1] (20 hours later)
Just wondering, what's the birth rate of the NotElves and NotGoblins? The N/Goblins hold the fertile plains to the East of the mountains. do the rivers that feed the plains originate in the mountains the Nelfs hold? could they dam the rivers or poison them?
u/stasersonphun [+1] (20 hours later)
every city needs a few Telepath mages who know each other and a scroll of Telegram Codes, with single words for whole common phrases. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_code_(communications)
u/None [+1] (23 hours later)
It's somewhat interesting to me that you can use Healing in order to farm up arbitrarily large amounts of biological matter. In fact, given that it is not specified in the text, can you use heal or rejuvenate on nonorganic materials? If so, you can farm up arbitrarily large amounts of everything. Even ignoring that, the world would be pretty bizarre if it was semi-trivial to farm organic material. I suppose it depends on how fast mana regenerates and how expensive it is to use Heal and Rejuvenate.
u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+1] (a day later)
What happens if you use telepathy on a target that is asleep/unconscious? Can you get several casters to spam scry+telepathy at a target 24/7 to make them unable to sleep until they die from sleep-deprivation? Or at least be horribly unhealthy and uncoordinated from the lack of proper sleep?
u/stevedoesIP [+1] (a day later)
Feel like to be safe you should make it so invigorate can't stack with any of the other magics due to arbitrary bullshit.
u/Nadav1351 [+1] (a day later)
The atom bomb: use Imbue Object on a grain of sand (I did not see a size restriction) with fire Energy Burst, make it activate by sufficient heat, use all the Wizards to fill a cart with magical grains of sand. You now have a weapon of mass destruction.
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (a day later)
They don't chain-react.
u/Nadav1351 [+1] (a day later)
How do you use magical items? Due to your answer, I'm guessing you can't use voice commands. Can a magic item have a magic to actively another magical item or several, if the answer is yes, then a bomb is possible. What exactly are the ways to activate a magical item? (Sorry if my English is bad)
u/Kanddak [+1] (a day later)
There is some ambiguity in your listed MP amounts for various levels of magician experience. Do more-experienced magicians accumulate MP faster, so that the quoted amounts are per day? Or are the quoted amounts caps on how much MP a magician has the capacity to store, as they accumulate MP over a long time at a fixed rate?
If MP accumulation is relatively fast, we can do this:
If 1 in 15 not-elves are magic-sensitive, 10% of these have potential to be useful, and about 1/3 of these are sensitive to red magic, that's about one useful red magician per 450 individuals, so they're common enough that any reasonably-sized settlement should have one.
Every morning, the town's red magician spends one day's worth of MP accumulation to invigorate the strongest man in town. It only lasts for a minute, but he spends that minute pulling on a chain. The chain quickly lifts a very heavy object to a great height, from which it is slowly lowered over the course of the day to drive machinery.
(As many others have suggested, this could be supplemented by using siphon to concentrate MP from the larger number of "not enough potential to be useful" red sensitives)
Proposed fix: Invigorate supplies the target ability with a fixed amount of energy per MP instead of a fixed duration in time, so that it is not acting multiplicatively on how much work you can do in one minute. Perhaps invigorating strength adds an amount proportional to MP spent to your maximum strength, and supplies enough energy to use all of that strength for e.g. 15 seconds; but if you only apply 1/4 as much force above what you could without magic, you can sustain that force for a minute. If you just rest & relax, it all dissipates in maybe half an hour. Probably the maximum strength also tapers off over time if not used.
This would also add a little bit of flexibility to use invigorate when the timing is a little less immediate. One could invigorate a soldier when combat is imminent, leaving them some flexibility to use the enhanced ability at a tactically opportune moment (this might not be desired and might have been your motivation for 1 minute? rescale things as desired).
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (a day later)
There is some ambiguity in your listed MP amounts for various levels of magician experience. Do more-experienced magicians accumulate MP faster, so that the quoted amounts are per day? Or are the quoted amounts caps on how much MP a magician has the capacity to store, as they accumulate MP over a long time at a fixed rate?
It's a cap. Read other answers for details on recharging -- pretty sure I answered this somewhere.
If MP accumulation is relatively fast, we can do this:
If 1 in 15 not-elves are magic-sensitive, 10% of these have potential to be useful, and about 1/3 of these are sensitive to red magic, that's about one useful red magician per 450 individuals, so they're common enough that any reasonably-sized settlement should have one.
Every morning, the town's red magician spends one day's worth of MP accumulation to invigorate the strongest man in town. It only lasts for a minute, but he spends that minute pulling on a chain. The chain quickly lifts a very heavy object to a great height, from which it is slowly lowered over the course of the day to drive machinery.
(As many others have suggested, this could be supplemented by using siphon to concentrate MP from the larger number of "not enough potential to be useful" red sensitives)
That's a neat idea, but I don't think it would be the best use of the mage's time, or even just the magic if you just wanted to use it to create energy.
u/FireHawkDelta [+1] ** (a day later)
Your change to the transformation system moves the level of exploitation I can think of from "obviously broken" to "this could make a 'fun' and horrifying plot twist." There could be a government kidnapping/breeding program that disappears people with forms that could be useful for medicine or arms manufacturing, and uses them with the method of the infamous Dwarf Fortress mermaid thread. Or even just noble houses inbreeding to create war beasts, escalating to a similar scenario.
u/flibber64 [+1] (4 days later)
If the Luck spell fades when someone consciously tries to make use of it, this could be avoided by using Imbue Object to give Luck to an object, then giving the object to someone without telling them that it is magical, thus allowing them to use it for its full duration without triggering the condition to prematurely end the magic. This would work even better on people who believe they are lucky, as they'll be more likely to be in situation where they can unconsciously receive the benefit of the spell.
u/Nickless314 [+1] (5 days later)
Scrying: map-making / surveillance by scrying 10 km aboveground ("Scry at the target location" doesn't and I think shouldn't specify a height limit).
Telepathy: long-range communication between permanent strongholds may be easier by use of physical indicators for direction & distance. For example, you want to talk to someone at Farsville, so you go to the "communications center" which has a long line drawn on the grownd precisely indicating the direction (and somehow distance) to Farsville.
Can you force-communicate to distract an enemy general? Or whistle-communicate subliminal messages? Or pretend to be an actual person speaking?
u/TheAzureMage [+1] (9 days later)
With a frequency rate of 1 in 10 to 1 in 20, it ought to have a very significant impact on Elf culture, contradicting your statement about magical impact. For comparison, about 2% of people have green eyes, and 1-2% have red hair, which is far more rare, and yet is considered reasonably normal. Even for the rarer race distribution, 1/100 would be enough that almost everyone would personally know someone who could do magic.
Scry: Would suggest changing the double negative to "Only works under an open sky". Not really an error, just a clarity thing, sorry for picking nits.
Siphon seems ineffective if there is, as appears, a 1:1 correlation. It would allow type-shifting of mana, but does not seem to be good at gaining mana overall, and thus seems a fairly poor thing to practice, given that learning seems to naturally increase mana reserves anyways, which would usually be far more valuable.
The time-cost for transformations would seem to be largely irrelevant. Anyone who focused on transformation would presumably, after learning a form, do it repeatedly until hitting the minimum shifting time. This would seem to be a particularly advantageous form of magic practice, as it provides an explicit benefit beyond normal training.
Rejuvenate: There appears to be no rules regarding stacking effects. Therefore, repeatedly casting Rejuvenate on oneself shortly before one has recovered all mana ought to stack ever higher levels of rejuvenation. I believe you'll either want to clange this to only work on health rather than all abilities, or set some other limits. This is probably the most important note, as it can be comboed with essentially anything else for nigh-arbitrary power.
u/Ratvar [+1] (20 days later)
Can you heal problems from chronic drug ingestion? Free binge drinking, spare psychological problems?
Can you heal woman/baby at birth? Can you heal premature births? Thinking about it affecting reproduction rates.
Can you "heal" pregnancy out? Magical contraceptives.
Can you siphon magic out of mice-sized transformed mages (who needs manastones)? Out of babies?
Can pregnant transform if their baby's wizard? Can you transform babies that are still inside?
Eat something, transform into mice. Is it time frozen while you are mice? Can you make pouches of holding out of transformies, use them to preserve things? Can you make mice-suicide bombers with timed explosions?
Transform into mice, climb into little hole, untransform. What happens?
Are there insect transforms?
Without disease, immune systems exist? Can you heal someone's else arm to different body? Can you heal someone's else brain into other body? Bodyswappers, shiva body horrors.
Thinking about hyperweight red mage with lucky giant form, healers at their side to fix everything weight related.
What happens when transforms in form get a children? Magical animals? Transform babies that can be reverted into elf/goblin form? Hybrids? Abonimations?
Transform everyone untill you get lucky rare animals, drug those people/telepathyspam untill they are braindead, rise magical rare animal farm?
Does size matter in Imbue Object? Can you make speck-sized grenades? Can you imbue a house to lit on fire? Can you make siphoning object that sucks all magic out, acting as wizard dampeners and refueling itself? Can you make ten? Hundred? Will it stop telepathy/soothe/luck? Telespam-proof helmets/earrings?
Can you make siphoning object that imbues other objects with it's own powers? Magic gray goo, for as long as there are wizards near?
What is an object? If you break imbued object in half, are halfs still imbued? Can you imbue cup of water to electricy, sand to burn? Poison enemy water/earth by spreading it? What about imbuing sand, then making a glass wase out of it?
Can you imbue objects to transform? Random food out of marbles.
You can imbue electricity into things - Is it used anywhere in techno-sense?
Can you invirogate animals for hyper-fast boost to your "horse" or to make a bird that can drop heavy magic grenades on your enemies? Can you invirogate plants? Things, matter?
Can blind scry?
u/m0le [+1] (8 hours later)
If I have this right, only royalty or red mages (or those with access to a red mage) could ever use prismatic magic? That would make red mages significantly more important than the others as support.
What happens if you mix two of the colours?
u/-Vecht- [+1] Legacy of the Goddess (18 hours later)
What happens if you mix two of the colours?
Nothing.