scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/9ch73a.md

[RT] [HF] Mother of Learning Chapter 89: Victory

• Author: u/Nepene *

• URL: https://www.fictionpress.com/s/2961893/89/Mother-of-Learning

• Score: 260

• Created: 2018-09-03T01:08:43

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u/Nepene [+95] (15 minutes later)

That ending. Well, this certainly shows the necessity of planning for unknown unknowns, and vindicates those who distrusted Silverlake.

u/Seyt77 [+51] (2 hours later)

I doubt anyone ever trusted silverlake fully from all the hints since her introduction on how evil she can be. She literally sent zorian to his death for his first mission and took the salamander free of charge the first time he met him.

u/AKAAkira [+34] (2 hours later)

That was less about being evil and more about being an ass, I think. Still, she was always pragmatic without regard to morals, so this chapter was definitely something one could have seen coming.

But I wonder if she feels like she owes Kael and Kana something significant enough to help them from the Ibasan invasion. That's pretty much the only sentimental response we've ever seen out of her.

u/Seyt77 [+15] (3 hours later)

Doubt it as the first time she met Kael, she ignored him outright in favor for Alanic. I wonder if zorian is gonna stay behind to do some training to deal with silverlake. Or even if they can escape at all since pla said they cannot escape without his help. Still they answers who helped red robe get out since many thought it was the lich who assisted red robe in escaping the loop.

Edit: I feel like silverlake would kidnap kana if she had a chance to.

u/AKAAkira [+14] (4 hours later)

she ignored him outright in favor for Alanic

And that was more about her just not recognizing Kael in between the years they haven't seen each other. It was mentioned in chpt 83 that she recognized him since and tried talking to him. Though I can definitely see her outright kidnapping Kana.

Also, I don't think Panaxeth helped Red Robe for the majority of the loops - if it was capable of editing temporary markers into permanent ones, it'd be doing a whole lot more muck-ups. And it probably couldn't contact Red Robe until he was good enough to access the room with the Controller. At least until that point, Quatach-Ichl is still the most likely one to have helped Red Robe.

u/banemage42 [+2] (23 hours later)

Why would silverlake kidnap kana? Must have missed something

u/MagicwaffIez [+6] (a day later)

When zorian first met silverlake, he explained how he knew kael and what happened to his family, and most importantly, that he had a daughter. It didn't get brought up again because zorian likely didn't have thst conversation again... But the reason silverlake tried to make amends with kael, was to get him to let her teach kana.

Ch 28:

"Then I would like you to deliver a message to him," she said. "It's nothing urgent, but I want him to know… that I regret how our last meeting ended and that I would very much like it if he came to visit me with his daughter sometime in the future. Oh, and that I want to teach his daughter the secrets of my magic. She is a descendant of a proud line of witches stretching back to time immemorial, and it is her birthright to continue it… should she want to. Got all that?"

u/Roxolan [+4] Head of antimemetiWalmart senior assistant manager (a day later)

She literally sent zorian to his death for his first mission

Only if he was very foolish (by her standards) or very desperate. It was more of a fuck-off-and-don't-bother-me-again mission.

That does mean she stole his labour with no intention of actually helping him out. But that's the height of her confirmed on-screen evil. (Which is why Z&Z willingly associated with her.)

u/AngryEdgelord [+3] (4 days later)

I was honestly surprised that Zorian rejected Panaxeth's offer so quickly. I'd figure he'd at least consider it and maybe try to haggle for something looser. Being able to work on breaking through to the time loop by messing with it from the outside might easier then trying to break out of it from the inside.

​

Who knows, maybe Silverlake will do just that and begrudgingly lend some aid from the outside.

u/Modularva [+1] YURK (2 days later)

Is it unambiguously clear that Silverlake made the wrong choice? If we assume that Zorian and co are doomed to fail, which seems likely without out of universe knowledge that he's the protagonist of a story, then the outcome of Silverlake not taking the deal is that the invasion proceeds as plan and the primordial is released regardless. At least this way she has the chance to influence events positively, find a way to renege on the deal somehow, or, minimally, survive where she otherwise would not have.

We might be best served by interpreting her actions as pragmatic, rather than treasonous.

u/Nepene [+2] (2 days later)

Her actions are pragmatic- she was essentially going to die, and took this course of action to save herself. That said, her actions endanger all of humanity because she's been bound by a primordial to free it.

Agreeing to a deal with a world ending monster is very treasonous, if also pragmatic.

And they have time to come up with another solution.

u/Yes_This_Is_God [+72] (15 minutes later)

WHAT A TWIST

Though to be fair, Silverlake was always portrayed as a self-obsessed schemer.

Do you think Red Robe is actually dead? It would feel like a bit of a let down, but Silverlake as the Big Bad could also work. Her character has been given a lot of development and we know she's a fearsome opponent, even without the assistance of a primordial.

u/sicutumbo [+46] (52 minutes later)

I kind of think RR would be a let down of a final opponent anyways. He's no match for Zach in combat and couldn't even subdue Zorian effectively. If they came across him now, he wouldn't even know to have QI for backup, and it would be the shortest fight in the story possibly including the encounter with the Eye beast.

I don't think he's dead, since that wouldn't allow for any resolution to who he is. Panexeth may have made the same deal with him, but RR probably did leave the loop, because the gate was barred.

u/notagiantdolphin [+8] (2 hours later)

Chances are he'll be built up as a bit of a 'dragon' - told by Panaxeth somehow to help Silverlake, his new and more effective servant. A lot of talking, followed by ZZ ignoring him entirely with the level of development they've achieved and being confused as to why he's still there while they're doing something else.

u/Gr_Cheese [+18] (54 minutes later)

since that wouldn't allow for any resolution to who he is.

Wasn't "who" answered? It was the Veyers kid, he's soulwiped in the current loop. And why he wouldn't take the primordial's offer? Dunno, seems like he should/would have.

u/sicutumbo [+33] (58 minutes later)

He's soulwiped, but they said that that wasn't conclusive. He's the most likely candidate, but even if that's true it doesn't answer how he did what he did. He apparently modified the temporary marker within 6 months of receiving it, as a mediocre mage, when Z&Z couldn't given a full year and almost unlimited resources? How would Zach have even had access to the crown? Too many big questions without any ability to answer them if he is actually dead.

u/Gr_Cheese [+17] (an hour later)

You're right, it doesn't really sit well with me either. But the only rational and reasonable way those questions could be answered, with things as they stood prior to RR's death, involved Zorian mind-jacking the equivalent of a Villain's Monologue from RR.

That... wouldn't really be satisfying either, in my opinion.

RR bailed too early. He was never enough of a threat. His mystique kind of lost importance after Z&Z could take on Quatach-Ichl. The mystery stopped mattering.

Silverlake is a compromise, but it's one I can live with.

u/Chayim47 [+35] (2 hours later)

I think RR leaving was logical and an important part of the novels progression.

It’s on you if you don’t think the mystery matters.

RR was able to shrug off an entire Aranean ambush while still being weak to psychics. I think his identity and motives are going to be an important part of the final arc.

edit

If Red Robe is a Red Herring it’d make me laugh.

u/sicutumbo [+12] (15 hours later)

Did he have Mind Blank on? He's not a bad mage obviously, and it isn't an extremely difficult spell to cast. It would only make sense to cast it when going against an Aranean web, and then to drop it when you want to probe someone's memories.

u/The_Magus_199 [+1] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (2 days later)

Yeah, I’m still disappointed that Red Robe left after act 1 - I get it, sure, but I just feel like once there wasn’t an enemy time traveler forcing caution and keeping things on their toes, the story’s just kind of drifted downhill. (Especially as the scale exploded and the whole “closed circle mystery” aspect where brute-forcing the problems was impossible and the real strategy was to build versatility and understanding of what’s happening collapsed. I feel like the way we timeskipped over the two biggest chances to focus on character-building again in the last few chapters is really indicative.)

I mean, it’s still a good story, don’t get me wrong, but the first act was up there with the potential to be one of the best time travel stories I’d ever read, while at this point it mostly just feels like a decent one.

u/Luck732 [+7] (2 hours later)

I really don't think it was Veyers, I find it more likely that RR is the lawyer that Veyers is rooming with.

u/Gr_Cheese [+13] (13 hours later)

And that the lawyer just got pissed off with having to deal with this obnoxious Veyers kid at the start of every restart so he "soul killed" him?

That would be pretty funny

u/Luck732 [+7] (14 hours later)

I think the lawyer was introduced to Zach by Veyers, after all we know (from the very chapter we meet the lawyer) that Zach talked to a bunch of lawyers about his guardian's thievery.

This is why RR soulkilled Veyers and wiped Zach's memory of him, RR didn't want Zach to ever come looking for him again.

u/Gr_Cheese [+1] (16 hours later)

That would be a very interesting twist to RR's identity. Another reason the character's supposed spontaneous death is a waste.

u/Luck732 [+4] (21 hours later)

I really don't think Panaxeth is saying RR is dead, I think he is saying RR took the deal. I can't think of a reason RR wound not take the deal.

u/Argenteus_CG [+2] (21 hours later)

If he took the deal, PX wouldn't need Silverlake. After all, it lost all interest in Zorian after Silverlake accepted.

u/None [+2] (4 days later)

It lost interest in Zorian because Silverlake is one of the greatest mages alive with a focus on the specific field Paxy requires. Silverlake makes recruiting any other agents a waste of time.

RR can't really make that claim.

u/summersss [+2] (13 hours later)

Yeah the big bad can be handled easily in a straight fight. Its the resources they are bringing to bear that is the problem. That's what I like about the story, its not just slash and smash. Uncovering the mystery, finding the enemy and stooping the their plots is the hard part.

u/sicutumbo [+3] (15 hours later)

I am curious as to how they plan to stop the invasion in the real world. They did so in the past by accident when they launched the frontal assault to get the gate, but I don't recall any specific efforts towards diffusing the invasion without such an attack. There's also the issue that the real invaders will be able to call on demons and other spirits for backup, which they obviously can't account for while in the loop.

u/turtleswamp [+5] (2 days later)

Zorian managed a tactical defeat of the invasion with a sabotage campaign run by the Araena before he was collaborating with Zack. That's what led to RR deciding to leave the loop.

If anything it'd be easier to reproduce that outside the loop as that was before Zorian and Zack learned the vast majority of the valuable information and skills they now possess, and even assuming RR made it out, he did so with hugely outdated knowledge of Z&Z's capabilities (they weren't even collaborating at that time).

​

Prior to Silverlake's defection the invasions would have been pretty easily dealt with.

​

u/CrystalineAxiom [+1] (2 days later)

If anything it'd be easier to reproduce that outside the loop as that was before Zorian and Zack learned the vast majority of the valuable information and skills they now possess

Nope, because they lost all the tactical information the aranea matriarch had collected when Zorian's memory packet decayed, and the enemy is going to be able to summon powerful demons outside the time loop. Information collected since then is incomplete since it doesn't account for Red Robe's actions, assuming he's still alive, or the demon summoning.

u/summersss [+1] (19 hours later)

They wont wait till the invasion starts and just attack the members before it even starts. Preemptive strike.

u/Nepene [+23] (20 minutes later)

Probably. It wouldn't need to make a deal with Silverlake unless it didn't have an existing mortal agent, and it didn't seem that deceptive. They had enough people that they'd have likely made multiple deals if that was their goal.

That said, the original Red Robes is likely alive in the real world.

u/CrimzonNoble [+16] (3 hours later)

Is RR really dead? I mean, at first, I interpreted Panaxeth's statement as RR dying because he didn't agree, but when I reread it, I saw it as Panaxeth saying that RR only managed to get out because he agreed to the deal.

u/Yes_This_Is_God [+4] (5 hours later)

oh damn good point

u/thrawnca [+13] Carbon-based biped (22 hours later)

Don't forget that Silverlake has been studying Panaxeth's prison for many years. She's uniquely suited to freeing it.

u/spanj [+5] (10 hours later)

Is Silverlake really that difficult of an opponent though? Let’s assume she is just as difficult of a fighter as QI. Zorian and Zach alone were enough to obliterate his mental defense.

Silverlake has previously stated that should her mental defenses be violently crushed, she had set up a self destruct switch in which her mind would collapse. Crush her mental defenses and she’s as good as a vegetable.

As an aside, everyone’s existential crisis could be avoided if Silverlake kills all the original individuals in the real world. Though why she would go after them is something that you would probably have to reach for...

u/Ozryela [+9] (16 hours later)

Fuck.

Zorian said 70% chance they could get out by taking over their originals, 30% by physical exit.

Their originals are as good as dead. Silver lake will certain my kill them.

Well, if she has time for that. The time loop runs in compressed time. It's possible they'll exit seconds after her.

u/TheColourOfHeartache [+1] (4 days later)

Silver lake may try to kill them, but she won't be able to do it until the rest of the loops run out.

u/Seyt77 [+7] (16 hours later)

If she is smart, she would pair up with the lich same as red robe and the three of them combined knowledge would be scary as they only wish to release the primordial. Z & Z need to make a choice either attempt to leave this restart or stay and try to squeeze everything they can from the restarts.

u/MagicwaffIez [+2] (a day later)

Well taiven's existential crisis is silly. She dies close to the beginning of the loop if no one interferes. So do alanic and Lukav for that matter. And zorian dies at the end of the month anyway~

As for avoiding existential crisis's in general, they can't get out without silverlake, Zorian said as much this chapter. So all the temporary loopers are going to lose their memories.

I'm kind of glad actually. The ramifications of so many loopers would put targets on zach and zorian's backs. A lot of these people aren't really that trustworthy. Especially daimen's team.

u/The_Magus_199 [+5] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (2 days later)

Personally, I feel like they’re basically doomed by the fact that we skipped over the whole five loops; we actually have more knowledge of and investment in baseline Taiven than in looper!Taiven, at this point.

(That said, I could still see Zorian pulling out some sort of memory packet gambit to come up with a way to basically merge them all with their outside-the-loop versions.)

u/RockLeethal [+1] (15 days later)

She may hold them hostage instead - to some people they are the same as their past selves (as it's only been 6 months for them) vs zorian and zach who would be less attached to their past selves of 8-9 years and several decades, respectively.

u/Chayim47 [+5] (2 hours later)

I wonder what Silverlake’s deal is? You don’t get that paranoid without getting back stabbed a couple of times.

u/therealflinchy [+1] (14 days later)

Yeah that's a pretty shit plot twist

"Lol I don't even know who he is and he's dead so irrelevant anyway"

If that turns out to be true, fuck this novel so hard.

Silver lake as the big bad feels too Scooby-Doo mask reveal.

u/I-want-pulao [+59] (20 minutes later)

Oh fuck.

That's actually a really good twist with Red Robe not mattering at all. (Unless Panaxeth is lying which is a possibility). Silverlake is a fundamentally greedy person, she has a lot of information, and she already wants to work with Quatach Ichl. Now she has to, to make sure the invasion succeeds, or at least the primordial escapes.

What a cliffhanger though.

u/sicutumbo [+41] (2 hours later)

I think Panaxeth has to be lying. The gate was barred when Z&Z first entered the gate. If RR didn't leave, that means that the gate is barred by default, which doesn't make sense. I am highly doubtful that RR managed to get all the Key pieces without Zach noticing, so the gate was probably unbarred at some point without the Key. If RR didn't leave, why would the gate be barred, because Panaxeth has no motivation to do it, unless he was lying about being unable to transport people to the real world when the gate is barred as well. So RR probably did leave, which barred the gate.

u/vallar57 [+14] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (2 hours later)

Yes, that sounds like the most logical order of events. But how does it translate into Panaxeth lying? He simply told Z that RR couldn't exit without signing a contract.

u/Chrono_Nexus [+29] (3 hours later)

The answer to that would probably be, a person *can* exit without a contract. We know the gate was designed to be escaped; it would make little sense that the creators would allow a bound primordial to exact a price from the intended user in this way.

Rather than betraying the rest of them, I suspect that Silverlake actually used her expertise in dimensionalism and apparent knowledge of primordials to finagle a way through. And I honestly couldn't blame her- the alternative was a form of death by erasure. I can't vouch for her sense of loyalty, but she might be capable of more easily ending the restarts now that she is outside of them. I suppose the question then becomes, can she act quickly enough (with respect to time dilation) to release the others before it is too late?

u/Funnyandsmartname [+8] (4 hours later)

Then why did Panaxeth lie and say that Silverlake took them up on their offer? The closest thing I could think of would be to make them more likely to take up the offer later, but Panaxeth made that clear it wasn't likely.

u/Chrono_Nexus [+13] (6 hours later)

Nothing is given freely by such beings. That's the trope, anyway. Panaxeth would not have volunteered that information unless the probable consequence of providing it favored him. It's probably a manipulation tactic to compel others to take up its offer, yes. At least, that's what I think.

u/Caliburn0 [+7] (13 hours later)

No. It's implied that they would have to complete the month one final time after exiting the loop. Thus, the time dilatation is so extreme that the month has barely progressed at all.

u/Chrono_Nexus [+2] (22 hours later)

Where is that implied? Or is it just an assumption?

u/MagicwaffIez [+7] (a day later)

It was implied that the timeloop is almost instant in a few places,

first when ghost serpent first explained the loop to them in ch 53:

The triangle is the world of In-Between. It exists between the moments, constantly destroyed and recreated anew. A lifetime condensed in a moment. We are all trapped in this place, phantoms created for the Branded Ones like you to learn from and test themselves against. When the fires that fuel the world of In-Between run out, we will all fade away into the void… except for the Branded One, who will go to the End, to live through this month one last time

Then zorian explains it to zach in 54:

have no proof, but hear me out. It is clear that, in order for this whole setup to work, we have to be under an insane amount of temporal acceleration right now. Otherwise, how could only a moment pass in the real world while we spend decades or even centuries in this… looping world?"

Zach then explains it to xvim and alanic in ch58:

"The copy of the world exists in its own pocket dimension that is under tremendous time dilation. From the point of the copy-people living in this copy-world, the original world is frozen between moments. A hundred years passes in a fraction of a second.

Anyway, if that's not how it goes, then that's at least how the characters think it does.

u/Chrono_Nexus [+6] (a day later)

This is just speculation for my part, but I have a hunch that the time loop is a mechanism for draining the primordial's power. It's a built-in function of his prison.

Also, we don't really have a clear idea about the true number of restarts that have occurred. It's entirely possible that in aggregate, the loops are still taking place for a substantial portion of the month they are supposed to emulate. Or even, that the end of the loops coincides with the end of the month itself.

We'll just have to find out. There isn't enough information to make any kind of accurate prediction.

u/spanj [+3] (a day later)

If the purpose is to drain a primordial's power why is it necessary to wait for a planetary alignment? The planetary alignment makes it such that the energy required for each iteration is less costly.

If you only want to drain the primordial's power then you should just initiate the Sovereign Gate whenever.

u/Chrono_Nexus [+3] (a day later)

I'm not sure. Maybe such a sensitive and complex undertaking requires specific, repeatable conditions. Having all the planets oriented in the same direction might be a control against interference from multiple gravitational vectors, a hacky solution to the n-body problem.

Also, the summer festival is supposed to coincide with the alignment, upon which the loops would have been initiated normally. For some reason, the loops happened a month early. I'm not sure why (perhaps because the primordial was going to be released before the alignment?) but I would wager that this is a contributing reason for the instability of the loops this go-around.

If you only want to drain the primordial's power then you should just initiate the Sovereign Gate whenever.

What if you want to harness it as a battery for other purposes? There is a lot that we just don't know, especially about the gods. I look forward to seeing how the story unfolds.

u/LavaNik [+7] (14 hours later)

I mean, I took it as him saying "yes, he left the loop, no, he didn't make it to the other side alive". Hence - the barred gate and dead RR

u/summersss [+6] (13 hours later)

Yeh It has to be lying. RR used the regular method to leave,that's why they are stuck right?

u/turtleswamp [+4] (2 days later)

Note quite.

The regular method depends on having a soul-less body outside the loop. Only the original looper (Zack) can exit using that method.

RR tried it while not having left his body vacant on the outside to be reclaimed. Which is the same position Zorian and the temporary looper find themselves in which is why the primordial offered to "incarnate" them, that is manufacture a body for their soul outside the loop.

​

This tracks with what Zorian said about their options where he was pretty sure they could get their souls out this loop, whereas a walk out solution was low probability but probably also possible with sufficiently advanced bypassing of the intended system.

u/summersss [+2] (2 days later)

Thanks that makes sense.

Warping the sovereign gate creature to talk to others is one thing, but creating a body from inside its prison; if it can do something like that, then what sort of devilry has it been up to all these years?

u/zolnir [+4] (4 hours later)

We don't know Panaxeth enough to know if they're lying or not. But we can follow our 'common sense' and believe that godlike beings like Panaxeth are so powerful that they can't be bothered to make lies to an ant.

u/kaukamieli [+19] (9 hours later)

Except if they were in a stupid prison and really wanted to get out?

u/zonules_of_zinn [+8] (a day later)

common sense would tell me that godlike beings would have no qualms about lying to an ant to ensure their life and liberty.

u/turtleswamp [+8] (2 days later)

That analogy doesn't really work when the entity has already opened communication with the "ant".

​

I mean, if it's bothering to comunicate with you that means it has a goal you can affect which will be best served by you changing your behavior (even if that goal is just amuse itself by messing with you). At which point it has every incentive to say whatever it thinks will get the desired behavior; whether that is revealing a truth you didn't know an letting you act in your own best interest or lying to get you to act against your best interest depend entirely on the situation.

u/None [+1] (3 days later)

Maybe he barred the gate when he left and then died when the soul transfer mechanism to his body in the real world failed.

u/Chayim47 [+6] (2 hours later)

I wonder if they’ll try to convince QI in the loop and bring him out? Panaxeth is a much bigger threat to the world than the Ibasans believe.

u/summersss [+8] (13 hours later)

Alanic never trusted her. I bet he has a way to counter her ready and waiting. She will regret this quickly.

u/None [+43] (43 minutes later)

[deleted]

u/sambelulek [+10] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (an hour later)

I don't remember Taiven described as tall or long haired. Description of her physics is at first party at Noveda mansion, athletic, I think. I imagined Orissa when I read that passage, smirking to myself, "Heh, kid and big brother has same taste in woman."

u/Kuratius [+28] (3 hours later)

her physics

Yes baby, show me how your metric tensor affects your curves.

u/sambelulek [+1] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (3 hours later)

aca

u/Kuratius [+5] (3 hours later)

No idea what you're trying to say with that, but you meant physique, not physics.

u/sambelulek [+6] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (4 hours later)

Oh, I realized I must have written the word wrongly. But if I edited in, your jokes will be less funny. BTW, ACA: audible chuckle achieved.

u/rhaps0dy4 [+6] (15 hours later)

It's like "lol" but it hasn't lost its meaning!

u/summersss [+1] (13 hours later)

lol

u/thrasherfect92 [+34] (31 minutes later)

Excellent Chapter!

I was really torn between wanting to see how they would capture each piece of the key within a month and actually seeing the story progress. On one hand we would have gotten to read some cool battle scenes but, the story already has plenty of those and it is certainly better for the story to progress.

This totally leaves room for a sequel right? Zach and Zorian can leave the timeloop, maybe with others, and then the next story will be about capturing Red Robe and Silverlake and stopping them.

u/sicutumbo [+23] (53 minutes later)

The author said he was considering a sequel in the comments of one of the world building posts, but also said he didn't want to invest any significant effort into it while MoL is still unfinished.

u/summersss [+20] (13 hours later)

I would rather him have a conclusive end and instead have a different story in the same world, with old characters making cameos. A traditional dungeon diving story maybe. We know there are adventures. Imagine the hook/twist he could make with that type of story.

u/sicutumbo [+19] (19 hours later)

Here's the quotes:

I am considering some kind of continuation after the story is done, but that would be more of a direct continuation of the current plot. I’ve yet to consider one with entirely new characters or ones developing people like Zorian. I’m highly unlikely to write a prequel, though, since I’m not terribly fond of them as a premise.

And

To be honest, I wouldn’t even try to create plot as involved as the current one for this hypothetical sequel. It would be more of a portrayal of the results and consequences of the main story – a sort of fourth arc where we see how the various characters are dealing with things, how the setting reacts to everything that had happened, that sort of thing. Not quite slice of life but definitely not as ‘epic’ or long as the current storyline.

Anyway, it’s still under consideration. I don’t want to invest too much thought in this until the story is done. Don’t count your chickens until they hatch and all that.

u/summersss [+4] (19 hours later)

Nooooooo! Thanks for the quotes.

u/therealflinchy [+1] (14 days later)

But if it's a direct continuation, given that MoL is technically 3 separate books... Wouldn't that just be a book 4??

I'd prefer a prequel tbh, show how the hell all this came to be, don't really care about what happens after

u/PM_ME_CUTE_FOXES [+2] (15 hours later)

Yeah, I'd rather MoL be standalone.

u/therealflinchy [+1] (14 days later)

100% agree I want this arc done

u/therealflinchy [+1] (14 days later)

I'd rather no sequel and have everything wrapped up after being so invested for so long...

I don't think it could be anywhere near as exciting with the restrictions of a one-life non looping world.

u/xachariah [+14] (18 hours later)

I always assumed that the story wasn't complete until they actually stopped the invasion in the real world. Escaping the timeloop is just a subgoal to the real goal of preventing a nation from being wiped out.

u/AngryEdgelord [+1] (4 days later)

Eh, at this point they've already stopped the invasion within the time loop. Escaping the time loop seems to be the bigger challenge.

u/xachariah [+2] (4 days later)

The interior of the time loop is different from the real world. E.g., angels and demons.

They're up against other timeloopers and a (apparently sentient) primordial, which are constraints they've never dealt with before.

Plus, I don't think they've ever actually pulled off a clean run of beating the cult, and QI, and the invasion all in a single run.

u/AngryEdgelord [+1] (4 days later)

Well, Zorien called Aleric in and brought the whole army in on the important mansion that was the layover for the invasion. Once that was taken out the whole thing got called off. And that was Zorien acting alone. Now that they've got an absolutely massive team shutting down the invasion by getting their country's military at the issue early should be even easier.

And that's not even considering the vastly improved level of skills that everyone who's used the timeloop has, along with the knowledge of foresight.

Based on feats, Zorien at this point in the time loop would probably make short work of Red Robes by himself, or at the very least be able to hold his own until a whole team of archmages could take him down.

Unless new players show up like gods and angles who start fighting directly I don't see the invasion being much of an issue. Maybe Panthrax could pull something, but the author's already stated in the comments that the end of the third arc is going to be very shortly after they exit the timeloop. Maybe if there was a full fourth act already worked into the plot, and not just something the author decided to tack on to show the aftermath, I would see something like that happening. As it is though the end of the time loop seems to mark the end of the most significant challenge of the story.

u/xachariah [+1] (4 days later)

Fair point; I'd forgotten about that reset. Although bringing in the army to take out the mansion works if you don't get counter-ambushed by an enemy army that's been warned in advance, which Red Robe can arrange. He doesn't even need to think of it, just as long as he is forthcoming with his co-conspirators, Ibasan intelligence would know enough to watch their holdings.

There's no reason to believe that team evil won't be just as well informed as Z&Z once the time loop ends. And without future knowledge, Z&Z aren't enough to turn the tide on their own. As good as Zach and Zorien are, they are both nothing compared to a QI that's been given adequate warning against them. They're barely able to beat him with tons of allies and ambush tactics on their side. Turn the tables the other way and they die very quickly.

Or silverlake, who's far more ruthless than either of Z&Z. She'd be happy to work with QI and would have no qualms with doing whatever it takes to win. It's a whole new dimension when Zorien can't move freely because Kirielle has been kidnapped.

u/AngryEdgelord [+1] (4 days later)

Silverlakes experience with the invasion is limited to five restarts, and Red Robes perfected the invasion plan back when he only needed to deal with Zach. Just adding Zorian or Xvim to the time loop is a massive change, to say nothing about dozens of loopers, many of whom are major players in their own right. Already a small-scale conspiracy with Zorian and Stellar Spear that Strikes into the Heart of the Matter is enough of a problem that he decided to abort the time loop. What happens when the spiders are just one of hundreds of groups the time loopers bring into play? The board is completely flipped. The only way I could see them actually failing at this point is if Panaxeth pulled some stuff, which he very well might, especially with Silverlake in play. But since this is the end of the story I doubt the author is going to do the whole "Then Panaxeth wins!" thing.

​

I disagree with QI being some sort of unstoppable threat though. They have several methods of dealing with him now, at least temporarily, and they've successfully gotten the crown at least three times, though based on the way it's talked about in the chapter it seems to suggest that they've done it far more often.

u/therealflinchy [+1] (14 days later)

At this point the invasion seems like such a ridiculously minor thing, that surely that's not what the loop was put in place for! Haha

u/signspace13 [+28] (an hour later)

I am very much okay with this, Silverlake is so much more of a threatening antagonist than RR that I am very excited to see her act, I imagine we will see them escaping the loop somehow very soon. do not believe that Panaxeth could stop them, however it is likely going to take another restart, which will terminate all of the current temporary markers, so I think they are going to have to leave at the very last minute. The conflict outside is going to be mayhem, the group that escapes is going to be up against Silverlake and likely RR backed by the cult of the Dragon Below and the Ibasaan Invaders (which means QI).

u/kaukamieli [+3] (9 hours later)

Yea there needed to be some escalation that ZZ wouldn't be ready for. :p

u/RedditTerminator [-11] (an hour later)

YOU WILL BE TERMINATED!

u/signspace13 [+5] (an hour later)

Is this completely random?

u/sambelulek [+6] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (3 hours later)

Bad bot

u/megami-hime [+27] (an hour later)

The excellent twist aside, I'm more saddened that we weren't shown how they got the Crown off of QI.

u/Nepene [+20] (an hour later)

We saw before that they can use mind magic to do so. QI has let his mental defenses lapse.

u/Sunburnt-Vampire [+32] (an hour later)

Not even sure we could call it a lapse

QI abandons his body if mental defenses start to struggle at all, as the next logical step in defending. This is based on his (correct) assumption that he can just re-steal the crown a year later after biding his time. The method only works for Z&Z because they only need the crown for less than a month

u/Nepene [+15] (an hour later)

Yeah, that too. Just, Zorian noted that QI's defenses were rusty, hence why he could crack them enough to trigger that contingency.

u/Slinkinator [+21] (an hour later)

In addition, he bails at light touches when he's caught unaware, like by that coin early on, but when he was actively dueling Zach and Zorian he wasn't letting himself get banished by even strong attacks; he modulates it as he goes.

u/sambelulek [+14] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (an hour later)

Uh, didn't we get great action in this chapter? Fight against Violeteye, I feel, is more entertaining than against Quatach Ichl only on merit of being new. I'm sure there would be new challenge or complication when taking the crown, but it would mostly be a rehash.

u/Laser68 [+26] (34 minutes later)

God fucking damn it silverlake you are the worst. The the gravity of the situation is ridiculous.

u/kaukamieli [+6] (9 hours later)

Yes, it's a matter of life and death.

u/Xtraordinaire [+23] Team Glimglam (8 hours later)

Soooo, if Panaxeth has some agency within the Gate, this can explain the origin of RR (not that RR is very relevant at this point). The main objection to RR being (person of your choice) was that the marker alteration project always seemed an extremely difficult task, and RR was a pretty lousy mage. The marker is confirmed to be a tough nut to crack in this very chapter. However, Panaxeth pretty much solves all the difficult parts for the Red Robe. I remember Zorian though RR was strangely invested in optimizing the invasion. Well, it is explained if he was recruited by Panaxeth from the very beginning! It also means that RR can be anyone, even the Boranova guy. Their initial qualifications don't matter, what matters is that some circumstance by which Panaxeth was able to make its offer, and those are pretty much author fiat.

u/sambelulek [+9] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (9 hours later)

This! I'd like to imagine the Divines cut a deal with the Primordials: "Convince controller we choose to peruse Sovereign Gate to help you escaped. We won't bother you if you escaped this way."

And one of Primordials successfully escaped its prison. Only to find the world it escaped to is another layer of prison, now complete with copies of angels and demon. The Divines is outside of it, closely watching, for a chance to learn the weakness of their prisons.

u/rtsynk [+1] (9 hours later)

If RR was working to free Pan, then why did Pan stop him from exiting?

u/tjhance [+4] (20 hours later)

He never says he stopped RR from exiting. He just says he didn't "get out of here alive without me" (emphasis mine)

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+2] Father of Learning (14 hours later)

Pan was lying.

u/rtsynk [+2] (16 hours later)

about what? stopping RR?

if Pan already had RR, why did he need more? If he did need more, why did he stop with just Silverlake and not try to persuade more?

u/DDisired [+5] (21 hours later)

When I read the text, I didn't get the impression that Pan stopped RR from leaving, but that RR could NOT leave without Pan.

"You will never get out of here alive without me," it told him. Its voice acquired a human-like quality by this point, and most of the eyes were gone. "The other person didn't either."

My interpretation is that RR would not have been able to leave without Pan intervention, not that Pan actively stopped RR from leaving the time loop.

I'm sure all our questions will be answered in the future though!

u/rtsynk [+1] (a day later)

Their initial qualifications don't matter

they undoubtedly had to be a friend of Zach

Zach temp marked them and brought them into gate, Pan made both offer, friend accepted and got permanent marker, Zach refused and got his memories scrambled/sealed

which doesn't bode well for our intrepid crew

maybe their mental defenses help, but can they really stand up against a primordial?

u/Luck732 [+41] (2 hours later)

I think people are misinterpreting the

"The other person didn't either."

Sentence. I don't think this means that RR died trying to get out, I think it means that he took Panaxeth's help. It would explain why he got so much practice helping the invasion.

u/tjhance [+26] (3 hours later)

are you suggesting that RR made a deal with panaxeth and part of that deal was that he spend a bunch of time practicing helping the invasion succeed before he leave the loop? I like it!

u/sambelulek [+8] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (3 hours later)

That sentence mean Panaxeth doesn't believe Red Robe would survive getting out even with him trying to before the gate got barred. That sentence implied, among other, that Red Robe is not the holder of true marker. Will Red Robe survive regardless Panaxeth offer? That remain to be seen since time hasn't really 'ticked' in real world.

u/Luck732 [+5] (14 hours later)

I really really don't think that is what that sentence means. It is far more like Panaxeth is implying that RR took him up on his offer. After all, why would RR disagree when he has already been helping the invaders do just this?

u/sambelulek [+1] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (4 days later)

"You will never get out of here alive without me. The other person didn't either."

I'd like to expand it into: "The other person didn't get out alive without me either." Whether RR get out alive or not, Panaxeth didn't say.

u/kaukamieli [+1] (3 days later)

Do people still think RR had the real marker? :p

u/sambelulek [+1] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (4 days later)

You may think I still entertain that RR might be the true marker holder. I say it doesn't matter. Panaxeth imply that RR is not a true marker holder, and that's it. No relation with what characters in story may think. No relation with what readers may think. Especially no relation with what readers may think.

It follow steps I didn't expand as to why I can say Panaxeth implied so. But basically, the possession process that must be undergone by all non-true marker holder is terribly difficult. Even if the body they're trying to possess is their own, which has one-of-a-kind compatibility, they already has a soul in it. On top of that, they themselves are soul without brain, bound to be unthinking and unfeeling. Imagine a chance of an unthinking soul possessed a perfectly healthy occupied body, I'd like to think it's infinitesimally low.

That's why, toward all non-true marker holder, Panaxeth offered to incarnate: no need to bother with possession process, your survival guaranteed, just like the holder of true marker.

u/sicutumbo [+20] (47 minutes later)

Best chapter in quite a while. The culmination of lots of different projects that have been going on for substantial portions of the story. I love the bait and switch of the title, since you would think initially that it refers to Z&Z's projects rather than Panexeth.

The good news is that the project to physically step out of the time loop should be unaffected. If Panexeth has the ability to kill people directly, he evidently didn't bother to do so for the rest of the loopers. If the gate is effectively rebarred, this would be the method they have to use now. Harder without Silverlake, but potentially the inclusion of the crown used by Zorian would make up for it.

u/Argenteus_CG [+19] (43 minutes later)

Ho-ly fuck.

u/ClaireBear1123 [+18] (an hour later)

This makes getting QI involved mandatory right?

They are going to have to tunnel out, they will need a full 13 restarts from everyone, QI is the only one who can make temporary markers permanent.

u/Nepene [+8] (2 hours later)

It makes it more necessary, although they may well be able to make temporary markers permanent- the main issue is that they need to do a lot of research to breach the primordial's cage, and he is the top expert left in the world.

u/tangerineskickass [+19] (8 hours later)

Honestly, I'm seeing the seeds for a QI (looper, ZZ aligned) v. QI (real world, Silverlake aligned) royal rumble, and that makes me happy

u/The_Magus_199 [+2] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (2 days later)

Problem is, we have no real indication that they’d be able to social link him enough for the guy to not just immediately go back to helping the invasion once he’s out of the loop, if he even helps them leave instead of double-crossing them the way RR did.

u/SevereCircle [+1] (14 days later)

Honestly, I'm seeing the seeds for a QI (looper, ZZ aligned) v. QI (real world, Silverlake aligned) royal rumble, and that makes me happy

!!!!!!!!!!!!

u/rtsynk [+5] (10 hours later)

I'm slightly concerned QI is going to rather forcefully interject himself

I forget how long it takes him to regenerate (it was all rather speculative anyways), but my impression is that there's enough time left in the loop for him to come back and hunt down party members and discover the truth

u/thrawnca [+36] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)

Maybe Zach should have taken a minute to learn about his new privileges before switching them on?

Hopefully the Guardian is still functional enough to answer their questions.

u/rtsynk [+16] (9 hours later)

indeedidly

I am very curious what other privileges they got. Could be some verrry important/useful stuff (unlimited resets of temp marker, change starting locations, relocate key starting locations, etc)

(I am also curious what other treasures violeteye had)

u/None [+12] (15 hours later)

Yeah that felt too rushed and while reading it I just knew something bad was gonna happen. Not really rational.

u/ilI1il1Ili1i1liliiil [+22] (16 hours later)

Indeed, and it seemed unnecessarily risky to bring all the other loopers in with the guardian. Still, it's completely in-character for Zach to rush it.

u/None [+8] (20 hours later)

Yeah, it's kinda in character. Though I do think that it would have been more risky not to bring them.

u/ilI1il1Ili1i1liliiil [+4] (20 hours later)

more risky not to bring them

My first thought was: what if the controller opens a portal out? I could totally imagine Silverlake just jumping through. And that was what happened, though metaphorically. But you raise a good point -- they could have needed help.

u/JulianWyvern [+5] Wayward Wanderer (23 hours later)

He should've totally switched himself into Admin privileges immediately

He should've waited a bit before unbarring the gate however

u/vallar57 [+16] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (an hour later)

Bwa-ha-ha-ha, so many hidden final boss potential revealed in this chapter. So worth the wait.

So now the team is barred, pun intended, from using the full key option for the exit (unless they want to form the contract and become magi). Which leaves them with brute forcing the way out. In 13 restarts. Against a Primordial. The pressure!

u/distrofijus [+15] (5 hours later)

Primordial involvement changes scope/perspective on some of the events we were told previously:

The cataclysm which turned fertile land into desert might have been the first large issue caused by SG degradation. The primordial who was tied in the capital tried to escape the prison. Situation went nuclear. SG was given for Zach family safekeeping, not to be used again.

The cause behind the weeping could have been Panaxeth (he needed to wipe out the Noveda family which allowed SG started again). SG is apparently assists in the escape in some sort of fashion. Since he is flesh-warper, he could easily create toxins/infection to set up the stage for current events.

RR is weird. He couldn't enter the space if he was using modified marker (unless Panaxeth pulled him into that space). It does not make any sense to be any other that primordial puppet (to coordinate ritual to free him besides other things).

u/sambelulek [+2] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (9 hours later)

I would crossed out Panaxeth as the cause of the Weeping. It happened not 100 years ago. Also, it was Zorian, with his non-intact marker, who was first successfully contact the Guardian of Threshold.

u/zolnir [+15] (4 hours later)

Personally, my question is - is Silverlake the only apparent traitor of the group? Or are there more... subtle ones?

Are we Battlestar Galactica right now, guessing who's the Cylon and who's not?

One way or another, nobody103 continues to impress with his chapters again and again.

EDIT: Also, I believe QI is joining the forces of good! QI has always been a morally ambiguous - well, personally I wouldn't even call it ambiguous, he plays by a surprisingly tight moral compass if you pay close attention to it - person, and for all the obvious "he's the one who's trying to release the primordial from the beginning!" MoL has been twists and turns at every corner. Who knows if QI may change his mind?

u/thrawnca [+25] Carbon-based biped (3 hours later)

Just to be clear, I totally called the staff's power of long-distance transportation.

u/Xtraordinaire [+3] Team Glimglam (16 hours later)

And I called the controller-specific power, more or less.

u/sambelulek [+10] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (2 hours later)

I don't want to hold back my praise for this chapter after my criticism in two separate occassions, because this chapter is GREAT! We are aware of two things, the time pressure against temp looper and Silverlake inevitable betrayal. This chapter capitalize the two brilliantly! Starting with establishing the undercurrent of unease at Zorian-Taiven-Kael fun little excursion, strengthened by after mansion orb creation by Silverlake. We are primed for whatever author decided to give us about that issue. Then come surprise Panaxeth. Silverlake timely betrayal not only allowed us to say, "Curse you Silverlake for your ...," but also elevated the tension of time pressure, from previously unease to panic and helplessness. From previously only affect the temp looper, to now also affect the two controller. Brilliant!

Saw several spelling mistakes, but eh, what are they in front of great writing?

With this, the first part of the next chapter would be most awaited/wanted/anticipated. We will demand resolutions for following issues, (1) Will controller, especially Zorian, have issue leaving the loop even with most assured method, namely having the key and possess their old body? Panaxeth claim of him not being able to leave alive was ominous. (2) Will boring a dimensional passage through Panaxeth's prison still a possible avenue? Previously it is stated with 30% success chance. It was before we know Panaxeth is watching closely. (3) Will the escape of temp looper still possible at all? Silverlake's gone with her ability to make soul-perception potion. With no means of training, temp looper are doomed.

And we're curious about the following issue: (1) What will happen with Silverlake inside the time loop? Become a meat puppet at the next restart? (That if Zorian and Zach could not escape at this iteration, forced to try again, or simply decide to do so) (2) Did Red Robe really gone? Not even outside time loop due to Panaxeth doing? (3) Is Panaxeth acting as Guardian of the Treshold? Gate being made from mutilated primordial with nearby primordial acting as guardian is interesting prospect.

Thank you author for this chapter. I count 2 hours of entertainment from reading this chapter, participating on simpler comment, and writing this comment. I believe I will find pleasure from participating on more weighty comment for hours, if not days, to come.

u/MaddoScientisto [+4] (6 hours later)

Also the most nightmarish part: there could end up being two Silverlakes outside the loop

​

and they will most likely cooperate

u/rtsynk [+15] (9 hours later)

lol no, she knows how untrustworthy and backstabby she is

first step is to definitely kill her original self before original self has the opportunity to do the same to her

u/sicutumbo [+7] (15 hours later)

No, she'll soul bond with herself to get twice the mana.

u/Argenteus_CG [+3] (22 hours later)

Don't know who downvoted you; this seems like a very real possibility. After all, the main downsides of soulbonding don't really exist if it's with yourself, assuming you haven't diverged too much.

u/Argenteus_CG [+1] (22 hours later)

I think you may be wrong on that. Silverlake wasn't interested in the escape route or replacing herself, which means she has some regard for her other self. They'll probably cooperate.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+11] Father of Learning (2 hours later)

There's no change on the author page about when the next chapter will be out, clearly this means we will have our glorious conclusion tonight!

u/sambelulek [+5] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (3 hours later)

LOL, it's not updated yet. Try tomorrow for usual 3 weeks between chapters. Check again after 3 weeks to see if it delayed for another week, which usually an indication of chapter being big.

u/summersss [+10] (13 hours later)

Sometimes its good for the expected betrayer to be the betrayer instead of trying to surprise us, it would be stupid if it was Taivan or something like that. Again author shows unique way of showing power. Instead smashing and explosion, we see influence and knowledge, the primordial being able to exert influence outside of its prison is both believable and impressive.

Silverlake made a dumb move, she now has all of the cast against her. They are also free to raid her home at will for info, she is also competing against Red Robe too.

u/Nepene [+6] (13 hours later)

Yeah. This story is definitely rational fiction. Events play out in a clear, and awesome, and logical way, with people behaving according to their internal motivations, not plot.

u/charliecrush [+1] (3 months later)

I'm boggled by this, guys. I mean, logic? Was trusting her logic to begin with? I would have removed her marker before meeting the guardian anyway. She's earned that and proven her untrustworthiness several times, hasn't she? You couldn't trust her after coming out of the loop even if the primodial hadn't appeared, and I'm surprised she didn't try to ambush Zack at some point and get marker resembling that of Zorian, or even do something like what Red Robe did. It almost causes me physical pain that I knew this was all gonna happen several chapters in advance(primodial aside). I was pretty much certain Silverlake was going betray them somehow or do something for her interests and let them rot.

u/Nepene [+1] (3 months later)

They needed an expert in dimensional magic, and their next option was a centuries old lich who wanted to destroy their city.

She would have probably been ok, if not for the unfortunate situation of the primordial corrupting the loop.

u/charliecrush [+1] (3 months later)

Should have ditched her before leaving. They had all the power in their hands and misused it. She was bound to create trouble sooner or later. She has proven that she cares more about her goals than anyone's safety or stability. That kind of person is not the kind you take with you when escaping something like the loop. Use her then remove her marker. That's what sound logic says in my opinion.

u/Nepene [+1] (3 months later)

They needed her, to open a portal to the real world. Their alternative was literal cultists who wanted to summon the primordial into the world. Whatever trouble she wants to create, they assumed it was less of an issue (her abducting people, enslaving magical animals) and it wasn't an obvious issue that anyone would offer her a chance to betray the group.

u/charliecrush [+1] (3 months later)

They ripped an ancient undefeatable lich off. I'm sure they could've ripped the bitch off for her methods. Even if they had to sacrifice a restart or two near the end. The thing is. She was always obviously a betrayer. And the mc didn't notice it. Or is it that I'm the Only one who did from day one of them allying with her?

u/Nepene [+2] (3 months later)

They didn't have a restart or two spare, they were extremely short on time as everyone was about to lose their memory.

She was a traitor in the right situation. They made a major error in not doing further research on the time loop. One ancient spirit knew was was up, further research would have likely revealed other spirits who knew that the loop was corrupted.

u/silver7017 [+9] (3 hours later)

is it just me, or does that ritual bear a striking similarity to the one intended to unleash panexeth, with the boiling dimensional boundary?

u/sambelulek [+6] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (a day later)

Panaxeth unleasing must have had dimensional component inside the ritual, the prison is a hidden world after all. When compared to pocket mansion creation ritual, which is pure dimensional magic, some semblance should be there.

u/silver7017 [+2] (a day later)

that was just about exactly what I was thinking. the author does a decent job of using imagery to show little details like that.

u/AKAAkira [+6] (2 hours later)

So I wanted to talk about this passage:

People who had zero experience with soul magic would find it impossible to get good enough at it to survive the soul transferal and successfully possess their body. People who were well versed in soul magic, even before the time loop, would probably be annihilated by the originals if they tried to possess them. Aside from Zorian, only Kael, Xvim and Lukav had a good chance of pulling that off. And Xvim, much like Kael, has already ruled out the idea 'stealing his own life away from himself'.

At first I was wondering about Alanic and Silverlake not being included, but then the second sentence registered as "If they were too good at soul magic before the time loop, the original was fully capable of terminating the copy trying to take over them". So if I read that right, this method is only realistic for people who honed their soul magic skill sufficiently, had room for significant improvement, and had a base that would lend well to quick improvement, right? In which case I guess it makes sense Alanic and Silverlake would be out but Kael and Lukav would be in (and Zorian too, of course). But why not Zach? I thought he was also working on his soul magic over the many restarts.

Also, I kinda didn't see Xvim as the type to refuse getting out of the loop for non-pragmatic reasons.

Did blood magic/ingrained magical abilities also have some way to be carved into the soul too, by the way? It kinda seemed to me, in previous chapters, that Zorian and Zach were leery about it because it would affect them through subsequent restarts, but in this chapter it just said that the enhancement rituals would be anchored onto the user's mana pool and life force, both of which I'm pretty sure recover to normal every loop.

Other than that...the twist at the end was great. Glad to see Panaxeth wasn't able to create an immediate game over, even while upping the ante like that. Though by the same token I really wish Zorian could've fished more information out of it - like what exactly it wants to do when it came out, and what guarantee it could give to Zorian that it wouldn't kill him when it's free, if Zorian had actually agreed to its deal.

u/sambelulek [+7] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (4 hours later)

That paragraph took Zorian bias, so it's natural for Zach to be excluded since Zorian think Zach is the holder of true marker. He wouldn't need possession method. His body would be empty. If that paragraph didn't take Zorian bias, yes, Zach will have a good chance of surviving the possession process.

Xvim would see little benefit getting out of the loop. The knowledge of loop existence and imminent Cyoria's destruction is minor convenience. He would think that his greatest contribution is helping Zorian inside the time loop.

About enhancement being reset, I think, that's because there's unknown variable before them being etched on soul. Them not being satisfied resulted said enhancement reset between restart. That's why Zorian is leery; what if experimental enchantment satisfied those variable, so that he must live with it? I guess, advise from Morlocks allowed him to rule out some of possible variables; allowing him to practice more extensively.

u/CrystalineAxiom [+1] (2 days later)

Inheritable abilities have to be anchored into the life force of a person.

u/Angelbaka [+3] (19 hours later)

The rituals they're using anchor in the life force, not the soul. A ritual anchored deep enough to transfer over restarts would basically give them a bloodline, whereas the rituals they've started using are just "permanent" enhancement.

u/AKAAkira [+1] (2 days later)

This was where blood magic came into play. It allowed a mage to anchor the spell not only to their mana reserves, but to their life force as well. The resulting connection was deep and potent - potent enough that the user's descendants had a chance to inherit the ability in question as a bloodline.

Said this chapter, so it already sounds a lot like a bloodline to me. I'm just fuzzy on the distinction whether it can only be considered a "bloodline" only if the soul is involved (i.e. it won't be a "bloodline" for Zorian/Zach/Damian but it would be considered one for their descendants that inherit it - which kinda brings up the question of how it manages to touch the children's soul. Something during conception?), or if the form it's shown as-is in this chapter is already considered a bloodline. Which should mean that a reset would wipe out the newly gained abilities, I think, since it was established before that a reset restores the life force to a before-timeloop normal. Which in turn made me wonder if they couldn't have set aside the last three days or so of each loop to actually do heavy experimentation, instead of just Zorian learning the theory work.

u/None [-6] (3 hours later)

[removed]

u/zonules_of_zinn [+1] (a day later)

bad bot.

u/p3t3r133 [+6] (3 days later)

Just started reading this last week and caught up last night on 89. I have some theories but not sure if they have been discussed so I figured I could post them here so I can be told that this has already been discussed.

TL;DR at bottom

Basically I think a angel set the marker on Zach and gave him the blessing for a larger mana well along with detailed instructions he should do along with the locations of the keys and their function. At some point his actions in a loop brought RR into the loop as a helper/friend (Zach and Veyer had very similar family situations, it makes sense that Zach would have approached him early on and befriended him.). The goal of this from the angel was to prevent the primordial's release.

Support of this:

Zach's large mana reserve has been mentioned as a curiosity but no explanation has been given, but QI's explanation of his large reserve seems to be the same story. He was given a larger mana reserve with no negative shaping impact. It was pointed out that Zach's huge mana had no negative impact on his shaping and that there was no evidence this was a family ability.

The angel put the marker on Zach to stop the primordial from getting released. Why go about this round about way of stopping it? It was said by Alanic that angels are tied by rules and can't always do the most obvious or direct path of action but that you have to trust they know what they are doing. Any more direct path of stopping the primordial is restricted to them so they placed the marker on Zach exactly a month before the predicted release to give him the most time to figure out how to stop it.

The angel clearly prepared a path for Zach by telling the people with the Ring to hand it over. Why would he do this one thing and nothing else to help him? He didnt. He probably at the beginning told Zach everything he needed to know about the loop and what he needed to do. He knew that he ahd no access to Zach in the loop so he prepared him as best he could. When they discovered the Sovereign Gate they made a point of mentioning how little they knew and how impossible it all was without that knowledge. Every time they discover an artifact or marker function they realize it would have been helpful if they'd found it in a earlier loop. I think we will discover Zach was given detailed instructions on how to get the keys once he lets Zorian into his mind.

Why does Zach's memory suck? He got betrayed by his 'friend' and that's why he (subconsciously) doesn't trust Zorian to look into it

QI had a memory of getting his blessing for his mana increase. Zach doesn't know why his is huge. Why doesn't Zach remember this? Because RR erased it from his memory. Why did he do this? Because RR is a bad mind mage. He erased everything about himself, and any details he had in his mind about or from the angel.

I suspect prior to his memory wipe, Zach was able to gather all 5 keys easily at the start of a loop. When he still had the instructions in his memory from the angel. The instructions included details on how he could retrieve the items, how to extend the length of the temporary markers, and all the other details Zorian and Zack frustratingly mention they wish they had an suspected were possible. Its possible much of this information was actually in the Orb but was emptied by RR when he left the loop himself. He then used those to train and figure out a way to stop the invaders. (this is why Zach instinctivly figures out how to use them all so much easier than Zorian, hes had them all in his possession before along with instructions on how they work) At one point he started using the crown to bring in more support and one of the people he brought in was RR, his friend Veyer, not knowing he was a cultist. Together (with anyone else he brought in) they tried to figure out how to stop the invaders while RR secretly supported them to perfect the invasion. Once RR had what he needed (probably the requisit mind magic ability learned from the cranium rats), he revoked the markers of everyone else Zach brought in and erased Zach's memory of himself, the loops they shared and any instructions from the angel and put some sort of geas on Zach to subtly direct his actions into not trying to stop the primordial's release

TL;DR: Angel prepared Zach extensively for time loop. Everything they worked for they achieved in hardmode, Zach was able to very early on get all the Keys with the angels directions but was still in the loop trying to figure out how to stop the primordial's release. Once RR was brought in via the crown, and achieved the required skills, he betrayed Zach and wiped his memories of himself and the angels instructions.

u/rtsynk [+18] (2 hours later)

I hate hate hate the physical exit plan so very much, I hope it doesn't go that way.

Part of the satisfaction of this genre is the final wrapup where they take everything they've learned and make everything right in the world.

When they're some 3rd party to these relationships, it just . . . ugh

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+10] Father of Learning (2 hours later)

I'm just saying, murder is an option.

u/Menolith [+3] Unworthy Opponent (a day later)

With Silverlake around, it's probably plan A for her. Wiping out the potential receptacles for possession would mean that she'd only have a 30% chance of dealing with a squad of angry loopers.

u/tehdog [+1] (2 days later)

I'd be totally fine being killed by a vastly more experienced version of myself.

It's like doing a merge in git and it's a fast forward merge - you don't even have to solve any conflicts.

u/ajuc [+2] (3 days later)

I'd be totally fine being killed by a vastly more experienced version of myself.

You are. Just very slowly.

u/sicutumbo [+5] (15 hours later)

I think the physical exit plan uses their skills and previous plans more. If they get out through the gate, most people wouldn't be able to make it in the real world. It would use Zorian's soul magic abilities, but wouldn't use his dimensionalism or Primordial knowledge. Much more story time has been spent on Primordial stuff, pocket dimensions, etc. than has been spent on non-defensive soul magic. Everyone aside from Kael and Lukav not making it along with Z&Z would be disappointing as well.

u/Nimelennar [+1] (a day later)

Well, now they know how to achieve a physical exit, as that's what it appears that Silverlake has done.

They just need to find another primordial who is willing to help them, instead of Panaxeth. The problem: finding one who is willing to do so for a price that they're willing to pay. After all, they did spend several chapters primordial hunting by talking to elementals.

u/CrystalineAxiom [+2] (2 days later)

Other primordials aren't fleshwarpers so they might not be able to make bodies. Also, they'll likely charge a price for help as well.

Whatever they do, I suspect it won't involve other primordials.

u/JiggyRobot [+5] (8 hours later)

Damn, that was a good chapter.

I am shocked that only Silverlake apparently took the deal, it sounds like there are plenty of other temporary loopers (many that are not even necessarily named characters).

Interesting that the primordial threatens death if a person reneges on the deal. He/she is trapped in the dimensional prison. How can they harm people that are outside of that exactly?

The team apparently now have full admin rights for the loop. I wonder if there is an overwrite in there to give people a permanent marker or something similar. Maybe that is how Red Robe got it in the first place?

u/jazzjazzmine [+5] (9 hours later)

I think that's why the contract is specified a few times, it's probably something that has inherent power once it's made, not just an agreement. Somewhat like an Unbreakable Vow In HP.

u/sambelulek [+3] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (9 hours later)

It is implied that contract is mechanism that is independent from contractors once set in motion. Sort of much stronger version of Geas.

u/ajuc [+1] (3 days later)

We don't know if only she would accept. We know she was the first to accept.

u/None [+9] (3 hours later)

[removed]

u/sicutumbo [+7] (15 hours later)

I don't think that she could do anything to help the people in the loop. The entire time loop happens within an extremely short amount of real time, otherwise the Controller's body would die without it's soul. By the time she could even start to cast a spell to help, the loop would have ended one way or another.

u/TheTheos [+4] (9 hours later)

The situation is so fucked up. From what Panaxeth said (assuming no lies) it seems they cannot leave "alive" aka with their bodies. So I assume their souls can leave. For Zach no issue (has soulless body), for Zorian ethical conundrum (most probably will merge both souls), same situation for Alanic, others cannot leave at all...

Assuming they leave at this very moment their best course of actions, damage control, would actually be to try to outrun Silverlake to QI and join him, help with invasion with condition that no primordial is summoned. New series of splinter wars and massacre at academy seems to be favorable option to primordial getting free. That is assuming QI would prefer new splinter was without primordial to just new splinter wars. Which I assume is the case, because I doubt that he would be willing to serve anyone, otherwise it's just nearly invincible threat for the future.

If they leave now, don't join QI and Silverlake gets chummy with QI they are fucked, so fucked. It's essentially goodbye to all their friends and family and constant pursuit from 2 nearly ageless beings. Like if they don't know where QI's phylactery is or they can't soul jar his soul they are permanently screwed.

Assuming they don't leave loop now - by that they merely lose support of woke Alanic outside loop. They should figure out how to deal with QI permamently - aka find where his phylactery is. Otherwise they stand 0 chance. Actually Silverlake on her own vs Z&Z is not that scary. It's QI that brings the real danger. So once they get a method to deal with him they should be safe.

I don't think RR was brought in by QI. It seems plausible to me that in one of initial repeats Zach decided to actually watch the ceremony in which Panoxeth is released and Panoxeth saw a chance and went for it. Panoxeth partially copied Zach's soul mark onto one of the cultists with promise of strength, wealth, etc... So I assume RR is woke outside the loop, thought not sure if with a separate body.

Also it seems plausible that outside the loop they might get some support from celestial beings - angels, maybe some god will appear.

Anyway so many possibilities, so many unknowns and I'm so hyped for the continuation.

u/JulianWyvern [+5] Wayward Wanderer (a day later)

Leaving nor or leaving later doesn't matter. The outside world is paused while the loop is ongoing.

u/ilI1il1Ili1i1liliiil [+4] (16 hours later)

The temporary loopers' escape has parallels to longevity escape velocity; if they can just extend time a few more months, they may figure out how to extend time more, until they eventually all make it.

u/MaddoScientisto [+3] (6 hours later)

> Roaring, Violeteye conjured an omnidirectional sound wave that hurled all of the simulacrums away from her like a bunch of rag dolls and destroyed all nearby obstacles.

​

see, that's what happens when you fight a rathian without earmuff

u/Kishoto [+3] (7 hours later)

From the moment she was included in the looping, I totally called Silverlake screwing them over.

I thought it would've occurred via the lich but this is even better.

Although, to be fair, I'm now certain she has some sort of plan to help them all somehow.

My read could be completely incorrect however.

u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)

Typos:

and schooled her expression/and schooling her expression

showing them the glimpse/showing them a glimpse

capable to taking/capable of taking

has already ruled out/had already ruled out

is probably at least a few/are probably at least a few

asked her to be stripped/asked for her to be stripped

and put into a portable/and put it into a portable

filaments of light sprung/filaments of light sprang

eventually sprung up/eventually sprang up

before spring break/before springing back

a fundamental chance/a fundamental change

strange light sand/strange lights and

that of Filigree Sages/that of the Filigree Sages

the mind of dragon/the mind of a dragon

We're done it/We've done it

missing pieces two more items/missing two more items

through a through a - Duplicate wording.

gate was bared/gate was barred

u/rtsynk [+1] (2 hours later)

never mind possessing mind old body > my old

burn away all of our remaining restarts away > delete one away

We're done it > We've done it

u/Hidden-50 [+1] (a day later)

threw her hands in air

threw her hands in the air

expand and then collapse outward

expand and then collapse inward (?)

wards on the royal treasure

wards on the royal treasury

The gate is no unbar-ar-ar-ar-ar-ar-

The gate is now unbar-ar-ar-ar-ar-ar-

having a some kind of seizure

having some kind of seizure

At first Zorian though

At first Zorian thought

u/lostatnet [+4] (6 hours later)

Why did the angels start the time loop knowing not only that it was damaged but that the primordial responsible for the time loop was the same one being released? Were they really that desperate to overlook such an obvious point of failure.

Something tells me that it was activated by someone else, but the evidence points to it being the angels (forewarning the Sulrothum & Zach's blessing). Maybe Panaxeth just took an opportunity to hijack it...

In ch60, Zorian & Zach saw an orb of blood that reacted when the ritual failed. Maybe Panaxeth used this as a vector to communicate with Red Robe once he got a temporary marker? Xe made a contract with Red Robe, who was committed to freeing xem anyways. Panaxeth used what little control he had to let Red Robe leave the loop as the "controller", which barred the gate. When Zorian & Zach unbarred the gate, Panaxeth took the opportunity to recruit another lackey to ensure his freedom.

Though, that brings up another mystery. What does the repeated attempts to unseal Panaxeth within the time loop (which IS Panaxeth) actually do? Does it damage the time loop? Does it temporarily release Panaxeth until the safeguards shut the loop down?

u/MagicwaffIez [+3] (a day later)

I'm pretty sure that panaxeth had a hand in the timeloop starting. Not angels.... Because remember, it started a month earlier than it should have, which is why it's much shorter than the '11 lifetimes' spoke of in legends. It was supposed to piggyback off the planetary alignment thing.

And it starting now is suspiciously close to their invasion plans.

u/None [+7] (an hour later)

[deleted]

u/Gr_Cheese [+20] (an hour later)

Well, the author is Croatian. English isn't his first language. The tense thing is basically a spelling error.

u/SnowGN [+17] (an hour later)

Yeah, I'm aware. It really is incredible he's done all of this in his 2nd language. But the criticisms stand.

u/sambelulek [+0] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (an hour later)

English is not my first language, but he is sounds more correct to me than he was after that seemed at the front. I never pursue English proficiency above conversational level.

u/AKAAkira [+5] (3 hours later)

I understand the instinct to think so - I'm pretty sure some other languages have cases where an internal verb is supposed to be in "default form" regardless of the overall sentence's tense. That said, I'm pretty sure that in English a simple past tense means all verbs that are otherwise unconjugated has to be in past tense. For an example I hope is sufficient, the sentence (fabricated on the spot):

He couldn't, no matter how much he wants to

pulls up the same kind of gut instinct judgment on "wants to", even though it's a little bit more apparent here that it's the wrong tense. (Or at least, I hope it's apparent.)

u/sambelulek [+2] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (4 hours later)

... that are otherwise unconjugated ...

This exception rule is to blame, I guess. My logical approach to grammar goes haywire since my past habit of writing past form after "didn't" proved to be wrong. Still trying to make sense of them, but it's rather low in priority. I relied on instinct, as you said, in the meantime.

u/SnowGN [+16] (an hour later)

The author's basic writing skills are kinda lousy - amazing story, but I see a lot of this, and a lot of typos. He'd benefit from a serious editor. A more serious editor than mere grammatical stuff - he needs help to bring distinct 'voices' to characters like Qi and Paxaneth. These ancient, ancient beings just talk in the same language as all the rest of the characters.

u/Funnyandsmartname [+15] (an hour later)

I disagree. There are typos here and there but I feel like it's mostly a very natural read.

u/SnowGN [+17] (an hour later)

It's not really a matter of disagreement, simply a fact. You can't even compare MoL's level of diction, verbosity, and depth of voice to serious published fantasy like ASOIAF or the KKC. Or even other web serials like Worm/Ward or Wandering Inn. The grammer/writing quality is workable/workmanlike at best. You need only ask yourself how many quotable phrases have come out of this work. Answer is - not many. If any at all, as far as I know.

It works, but it isn't great. I routinely see far, far worse stories with magnitudes better writing quality than this one, which is a real damn shame. It really does hold the story back from the level of acclaim it would otherwise have.

u/sicutumbo [+21] (2 hours later)

More of a joke than a really quotable moment, but paraphrasing:

"I can't even put into words how much I want to hit you right now."

"We'll work on your vocabulary later."

u/Funnyandsmartname [+9] (2 hours later)

I never said anything about diction or verbosity. And while sure if you value those things more then The Mother of Learning isn't the best. I will admit some characters may not have as a distinct voice as they should or could; but I do think that a lot of them do have distinct voices.

While QI, Paxaneth, and the Taramatula Family don't have as distinct and foreign voices one could expect. I think Zorian, Silverlake, Xvim, Kirielle, Taiven, Spear of Resolve, and especially the Ghost Serpent have very distinct voices in my mind. But hey, to each their own.

Edit: minor grammar changes.

u/woodenrat [+7] (8 hours later)

I think MoL is the best written webserial. It could still use a few passes from a professional editor, but it I feel that it is in a state closer to publication-ready than Wildbow's works. Comparing it to ASOIAF or Rothfuss is hardly fair.

I do agree about the voices sounding similar though.

u/LLJKCicero [+7] (19 hours later)

Mother of Learning sounds fine to me, but serials like Practical Guide to Evil and Worth the Candle very obviously have stronger writing on a technical level.

Mother of Learning kind of reminds me of Brandon Sanderson's works: the plotting and world-building are strong, the prose is weaker, and there's not a ton of humor.

u/SnowGN [+1] (14 hours later)

Is this the only web serial you've read or something, Worm aside?

First, Worm is better written. I haven't read it in one pass-through in years and can still remember a good few quotable phrases. Wildbow, unlike Nobody, is able to write characteristically distinct characters whose differences translate into different styles of dialogue (see, interludes). Then, for other web serials, you've got Unsouled Unsong, Wandering Inn, and HPMOR. Unsouled and HPMOR in particular are at awe-inspiring levels of technical writing at one point or another.

u/woodenrat [+2] (18 hours later)

I should have said 'best written webserial that I've read.' I still need to get around to Wandering Inn, and I just started Practical.

I think Wildbow is an excellent writer, but Worm/Twig/Pact are bloated. Amazing stories with creative twists, but large portions are the POV characters running in circles with their thoughts.

Unsouled is interesting and fun, but I would not hold that up against Rothfuss or Martin (maybe his fight scenes).

Since you seem to enjoy dialogue, try 'John Dies at the End' by David Wong or 'The Lies of Locke Lamora' by Scott Lynch.

u/I_Hump_Rainbowz [+1] (22 hours later)

What is Unsouled? Would you recomend?

u/SnowGN [+2] (22 hours later)

Unsouled is too weird for me to describe, beyond saying "what if the Bible was real, and the Apollo space program broke the universe?" It's weird as fuck, technically falling under 'bible-punk.' Yes, I'd recommend. It's too unique not to recommend. Never seen anything even remotely like it, in any genre.

Helps that the writing is as good as any I've seen, on a technical level.

u/sambelulek [+3] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (a day later)

Huh, sounds a lot like Unsong

u/SnowGN [+2] (a day later)

Um.

Yeah. My bad.

u/ClaireBear1123 [+7] (5 hours later)

It's a joke to compare web serials to the Kingkiller Chronicles btw. Of course they don't compare. Whole chapters of that series are in written verse.

u/LLJKCicero [+7] (19 hours later)

Wandering Inn, really? TWI always struck me as having kind of amateurish/fan fiction-y writing.

u/SnowGN [+1] (19 hours later)

Starts out kinda that way, but improves a lot as it goes on. But Wandering Inn's writing stands out less in prose, and more in the immersive mechanics of writing itself. The author is actually the best I've seen at using whitespace, font styles, and repetitive idioms to create immersion. She has a very very good mechanical/structural style, which I've learned a lot from.

u/zonules_of_zinn [+1] (a day later)

i still get confused about who is speaking in wandering inn. i can go back and puzzle it out, but it happens to me a couple times a chapter. kind of bothers me. some weird insistence on NEVER including a reporting verb, or even the descriptive clauses in the same paragraph! the dialogue is always its own paragraph and i can't even tell which line of dialogue goes with which physical action.

use of markup is definitely cool.

u/None [+4] (an hour later)

[deleted]

u/SnowGN [+9] (an hour later)

You're breaking the issue down into a set of false choices. Outside of purist literary work in universities, there is nothing in written media in which prose quality is the primary appeal. Prose quality can, however, help to tell the actual story even better than it already is, and make the personalities of the characters more distinctly recognizable and developed.

u/zonules_of_zinn [+1] (a day later)

i only read a couple chapters of altered carbon, but found its prose and literary style to be almost better than the amazing world building. same with dhalgren. perdido street station. solaris. maybe even hyperion (the fall of).

there's at least a handful of speculative novels off the top of my head that have incredible prose, though they also tend to have crazy awesome worlds so i guess not the only appeal.

u/sambelulek [+6] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (3 hours later)

I disagree that this matter is not a matter of agreement. While I agree the work would rise a whole level with voices brought to several characters, I disagree quotable phrase to be a measure of greatness.

Princess bride was immensely enjoyable movie with many quotable lines, but I was not invested. Classic, but not great. As for your example, I was invested ASOIAF, great writing there no doubt! What's KKC? I don't like Wildbow's fiction but I acknowledge it deserve its acclaim. Wandering Inn? Really? The author focused on word count, allowing herself to be exhausted by her writing effort. She's not even allowing herself some break to rest or sharpen her metaphorical claw. Every time I read them I rushed to the end because passages are sparse of meaning. Emotions were tried to be deep with little success (melancholia only works if used sparingly). Characters distinction is superficial. Conservation of detail is kinked. Wandering Inn is a frustrating piece of fiction because it doesn't allow me to savor every paragraph. It benefited more from editorial works than MoL or this subreddit's other darling Practical Guide to Evil or Worth the Candle. Much more! Forgive me to let you read my extreme dislike. It's almost a year since the last time I read it, but it proved that I need more time to move on from being annoyed that that piece kept getting recommended again and again.

exhale

Yeah, my reply should be only the first paragraph. Sorry for being taunted.

u/hankyusa [+1] Sunshine Regiment (4 hours later)

What's KKC?

u/SnowGN [+2] (4 hours later)

The Kingkiller Chronicles.

u/I-want-pulao [+1] (4 hours later)

King killers chronicle (by Patrick Rothfuss)

u/None [+1] (10 hours later)

"Start over. Start over. Start over"

Also, the skeleton crew joke

u/Frommerman [+2] (3 hours later)

The author is apparently Croatian. Which explains the rough grammar.

u/AngryEdgelord [+1] (4 days later)

Well, that's to be expected considering the author is not a native English speaker. Anybody writing in a language not their own is bound to have some flaws unless they spend years fully immersing themselves in the language, and I don't think nobody's patreon pays him enough to even work on Mother of Learning full-time, let alone to travel to an English speaking country and attend English classes there.

u/Slinkinator [-5] (an hour later)

Grammar is racist and classist! If you're good enough at writing it's your style or your voice.

u/SnowGN [+7] (an hour later)

Missing an /s.

u/hankyusa [+2] Sunshine Regiment (3 hours later)

That old witch.

Seriously though, why didn't Zach ask for information before agreeing to anything?

u/Funnyandsmartname [+2] (4 hours later)

You know I just had a thought. If Panaxeth is an allmighty primordial with flesh warping abilities why didn't they just force Zorian and all loopers take the contract. Why does the magic require consent of any form? Is Panaxeth restricted by something or is there some powerful magic that can't do anything without consent?

u/valeskas [+16] (9 hours later)

Panaxeth said that some safeguards of the gate failed. Implying that some are intact.

u/sambelulek [+2] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (9 hours later)

So, nobody is suspicious of Zach so hurried in claiming elevated priviledge?

u/I-want-pulao [+20] (10 hours later)

Nah, Zach famously lacks patience and self control.

u/tjhance [+3] (20 hours later)

I think maybe he assumed he wouldn't be able to get any info about it until he actually had the privilege. Because the last time they talked to the guardian, he said information about what the privileges were was restricted.

u/I_Hump_Rainbowz [+2] (22 hours later)

Next reset, if their is one (Would be hilarious if it just ends), the group can finally investigate the full silverlake house. dig into her recipes and everything. I do agree with everyone that they are now forced to get one more ancient mage, and that it may have to be QI, but that does not sound so rationalist to me. Definitely a desperate move.

u/Nepene [+2] (22 hours later)

They've never really questioning him on why he thinks summoning a primordial is a rational decision that will go will for humanity. Talking to him may reveal more.

u/rtsynk [+1] (a day later)

no need to wait for a reset

u/ilI1il1Ili1i1liliiil [+1] (a day later)

Silverlake might anticipate that Z&Z will check out her place and therefore trap it.

That's why they should wait until the next restart.

u/FunFunFunTimez [+2] (16 days later)

I was just reading about game theory related to this. If you think any other person in the group would take that deal, then you should take it too.

u/iszathi [+3] (2 hours later)

Im pretty confused right now by everything surrounding Red Robe (did he have the key or just got to the guardian with a hacked marker?)

"You will never get out of here alive without me," it told him. Its voice acquired a human-like quality by this point, and most of the eyes were gone. "The other person didn't either."

Im reading a lot of comments taking this to mean he said no to the help, then tryed to get out and died, but how does that play with the Guardian saying that the controller left the loop? If he did scape with help from the primordial that frase is still true, and makes more sense in the story, even having RR still in the loop makes more sense.

//

Leaving that aside now we need to see what happens with Zack, can he get out this loop? will he?

u/sicutumbo [+9] (2 hours later)

My theory is that Panaxeth is lying about killing RR, and possibly about contacting him at all. The gate was barred, and it doesn't make sense for it to be barred unless RR left. Why would Panaxeth bar the gate if it killed RR before he could leave? Panaxeth may not have contacted RR because if he couldn't convince him to make the contract, he would be on the lookout for people who did take it, and Panaxeth simply waited for another opportunity.

u/iszathi [+3] (3 hours later)

Maybe, i usually asume such hints as true since trying to solve a puzzle with fake bits is pretty unfair.

Btw, he never said he killed anyone.

u/sicutumbo [+1] (15 hours later)

Oh. Huh, yeah you're right. I misread that bit.

u/CrystalineAxiom [+2] (3 days later)

My hypothesis is that Red Robe didn't need the key because the gate was initially unbarred. He needed Panaxeth in order to leave with his own body intact though since the Red Robe in the other world still had a soul. Also, Panaxeth never said that he killed Red Robe, he simply said that Red Robe didn't escape without his help. That could be interpreted as Red Robe dying or as him accepting Panaxeth's offer.

Panaxeth didn't bar the gate. The gate is barred as a natural result of leaving the time loops.

u/Luck732 [+2] (2 hours later)

I don't think RR would have even needed the key, given that the gate was unbarred when he would have gotten there.

u/None [+3] (an hour later)

[deleted]

u/None [+10] (an hour later)

Maybe silverlake required that she be the only one taken out.

u/DRmonarch [+5] (a day later)

"xe" isn't necessary. Panaxeth is "He Of The Flowing Flesh".

u/Menolith [+7] Unworthy Opponent (a day later)

And Zorian calls it "it."

u/Luck732 [+4] (2 hours later)

I'm guessing that given Panaxeth's proximity to the Sovereign Gate, he is most likely the primordial whose body the timeloop is made from.

u/sicutumbo [+8] (2 hours later)

The current proximity is accidental. The first Emperor of Ikos used it, and he lived in Xlotic. I think the Sovereign Gate is the anchor location for one of the primordial prisons, and Panaxeth is simply able to perceive the events of the time loop and interact with the gate and the outside world in some manner.

u/Luck732 [+3] (3 hours later)

I suppose that is possible, I still think the proximity must be related, otherwise why is Panaxeth the only one offering a deal.

u/valeskas [+3] (9 hours later)

Panaxeth's essence is widely used by shifters. Maybe this gives him an advantage.

u/sicutumbo [+1] (15 hours later)

We don't necessarily know that he is the only one. Probably, but the various Loopers haven't yet collaborated on which primordial offered them escape.

u/DerSaidin [+5] (3 hours later)

but hasn't made similar attempts to negotiate with people in the real world?

This could be the real reason QI is orchestrating the invasion, which we know involes some conspirators who aim to free panxeth. QI was promised rewards.

u/monkyyy0 [+1] (10 hours later)

My thoery: the ritual freeing the primordial actually taints the gate, this caused the gate to activate, the primordial choose a "champion" who didn't actually have a marker at all but who he was resetting manually, that he would release into the real world after his training bringing a savior to the cult of the dragon who would grow it and help course correct it towards whatever long game he has in mind.

When zorain stopped the the ritual the one time it actually killed red robe, explaining why he was so weak to lose to a gun, so rather then risk redoing his training again with the loop ending rather soon the primordial simply took his prophet to the real world with the power he had thinking it was worth the risk he was underpowered.... It wasn't so now he needs another high risk prophet to guide his cult towards his exit play and silver lake was a fine choice for that offer.

Testible prediction: only those with high dimensionalism skills were offered, ideally those directly part of the glass sphere they made as it got the big guys attention.

u/AuthorBrianBlose [+1] (13 hours later)

Do you think Silverlake has been removed from the time loop back to the real world at this point? The fact that she disappeared makes me think it might be the case. I am also real curious about what happens in the next loop. Based on whether she is soul killed or just reset, we would get strong evidence of whether or not Veyers is RR.

u/monkyyy0 [+3] (a day later)

Yes, what exactly would be the point for the primordial killing her because others thought she would defect easiest?

Shes not the weakest and likely a very good candidate for whatever freeing him from his prison actually includes; she was advocating for human sacrifice this very chapter, and given what the cult ritual does include catgirl murder to do whatever temporary thing he is trying. Add in dimensionalism likely on par if not better then z; shes likely the best candidate for whatever contract he has in mind; the "evil people lying just cause; silverlake is on our side so wouldn't take his deal" theory going on above is nonsense.

If it was super priest and then the it came back saying "there are a few more open spots, act now" sure, I would chuck it up to manipulation. But thats a different story by two very different ways: he isn't soliciting anymore, and it was a bad person to disappear

u/Kuratius [+1] (16 hours later)

Time for Zorian to put his telepathy to good use on Silverlake if she hasn't been taken out of the loop entirely.

u/kaukamieli [+1] (a day later)

Panaxeth said he didn't contact Z because he didn't believe he could gather the key.

But he could have helped and boosted the chances... They had no idea. He could have pretended to be angel or whatever.

This feels like a big hole.

u/Nepene [+2] (a day later)

He may have believed this approach would maximize the chance of success, given that people were desperate for escape. If he had told people before they could have talked themselves out of it.

u/kaukamieli [+2] (a day later)

How is not helping them get out maximizing anything?

I didn't suggest he'd say who he is, I said he could lie.

u/Nepene [+2] (a day later)

They may well research him in their free time and discover he's a primordial and then warn others not to listen/ make plans or countermeasures.

u/kaukamieli [+1] (a day later)

If he was gonna reveal himself in the end anyway like he did, it doesn't really matter much if they find out. The point is just to give them tips so they can find the key and get stronger, which is something they want to do anyway.

u/Nepene [+1] (a day later)

Lets say in loop 1 he says he's an angel. In loop 10, they can ask an angel expert who will say they're lying. Then, they learn a custom anti primordial spell, so he can't talk to them.

As is, they were desperate and emotional and needy for some way to escape, and this gave them a way to escape.

u/kaukamieli [+2] (a day later)

The angel was just an example. Best option would probably be to disquise as gate helper function. Find an expert for that.

And they probably would not stop listening anyway as long as he keeps giving good advice.

u/Nepene [+2] (a day later)

Zorian watched in growing horror as the Guardian of the Threshold suddenly started twitching and stuttering as if it was having a some kind of seizure. His head rolled around at impossible angles, rotating a full 360 degrees, his entire torso squirming and bulging as if something was trying to burst out of it.

He had a very bad feeling about this.

"What the hell is happening?" someone asked behind him.

"I don't know," Zach said, frowning. "This has never happened befo–"

Everything suddenly became quiet. At first Zorian though Zach had just stopped speaking because he noticed or realized something important, but when he glanced towards him he found Zach gone.

Everyone but Zorian was gone. It was just him, a madly twitching Guardian of the Threshold and a quiet, featureless black void all around them.

He immediately tried to return to his body, but failed.

Shit… Well, at least the Guardian of the Threshold was starting to calm down. He was twitching less, and no longer twisted him head and limbs at impossible angles. Maybe–

A multitude of eyes suddenly snapped open all over Guardian of the Threshold's body, blinking rapidly for a few moments before focusing straight at Zorian. Each one was different. Different sizes, different color, different internal structure. Some of them had multiple irises. Some of them glowed. Some of them were multifaceted, like those of an insect. Some of them made his mind feel numb just looking at them.

Subverting the gate helper function is something the loop strongly tries to prevent, and has substantial obvious side effects.

u/kaukamieli [+1] (a day later)

I mean way before Zorian even knew about the gate, or as early as possible. I don't believe P has to touch the actual helper.

But anyway. As long as their goals are the same, getting Z strong and them getting keys, he should absolutely help them and they should accept the help. Especially when they started finding the parts.

u/Nepene [+1] (a day later)

They could then ask the gate helper if that voice was it, and the jig would be up and they could prepare countermeasures.

u/kaukamieli [+1] (a day later)

Just say it's a function above that that is on because of the unique situation. Ofc it's not the thing itself if it needs to mutate to talk.

u/rtsynk [+1] (a day later)

what mechanism does the primordial have to guarantee cooperation once silverlake is outside the loop?

u/Nepene [+2] (a day later)

If she doesn't cooperate, she dies. So, probably soul and mind magic.

u/rocorocosys [+1] (a day later)

This chapter is great from beginning to end. Silverlake will try to take dagger and soulkill temporary loopers immediately i guess?

u/MagicwaffIez [+1] (a day later)

The dagger doesn't really kill souls, it just marks people to not have their souls recreated in the loop... Now that silverlake is out, she can't do that.

u/rocorocosys [+1] (2 days later)

Did she leave the loop immediately? i thought 'Silverlake was gone ' means Silverlake left the space of gate and now she is at timemagic research fac, in the middle of unconsiousis bodies of loopers..

u/MagicwaffIez [+1] (2 days later)

Ah,,, hm... I guess thats possible~ nice out of the box and thinking~~ Though that primordial only gave them the option of being incarnated outside. he didn't say anything about taking out loopers

In any case, as zorian pointed out this chapter, They can't get out without her help anyway, so her leaving already insured their demise, ya?

u/rocorocosys [+1] (2 days later)

Panaxeth want to Ibasan invade success and Zach is threat for that, so i guess Panaxeth may demand Silverlake that she prevent Zach from leaving the loop by end of final loop.

If this assumption is correct, tempora loopers are ZnZ's best human resources, whether or not they will reset from next restart. Wiping them out will make remaining restarts horribly difficult..

u/MagicwaffIez [+1] (2 days later)

If that was her goal she wouldn't have disappeared, she'd pretend to work with them while picking off the temps as they go. She's pretty smart and always plays close to the vest. Why out herself at this moment?

panaxeth isn't gonna let her go do stuff, because then she'll be able to try the other ideas they had cooked up... Which means she might not need his help. That's why he wanted an oath right this second.

I doubt you can soul kill a controller anyway. And if she kills all the temps, zach and zorian could just, yanno, leave the loop completely. Before this I would have worried that the guardian wouldn't accept zorian as a controller, but this ch shows how completely different the markers are, they'd both be fine~

if they gotta fight silverlake... Meh, they have half a month before the loop ends and all the key parts. She can't take the two of them in combat.

u/hallo_friendos [+1] (3 months later)

Three months late, and I can't believe I was so distracted by Silverlake I forgot about the truly important things. Namely, this:

Looking to the side, he saw Kael with a large yellow root stuffed in his mouth.

Taiven gave Kael a strange, possibly disapproving look.

"What?" Kael complained, chewing loudly. The sound it produced reminded Zorian of someone eating a raw carrot.

"How can you eat that thing?" she asked him.

"It's really tasty," he told her matter-of-factly.

"It's a wild root you washed in a nearby river," she protested. "That cannot possibly be safe or hygienic. Plus, I can smell it from here and it doesn't smell like something you should be eating…"

Kael gave her a challenging look before biting into the root again and chewing even louder.

The best plant I can think of that fits the description is dock. Grows in a clearing, big yellow root, edible, smells bad, and I imagine it'd be crunchy. The only thing it doesn't fit is "really tasty", though it probably is an acquired taste. Also, those things are a pain to dig up. Maybe magic helps. Huh, I never thought about it before, but it totally makes sense for Kael to know a spell for digging up roots.

u/charliecrush [+1] (3 months later)

Seriously, no one is infuriated that the witch was very obviously untrustworthy and our mc decided to be braindead and ignore that, trusting her with too much. Should have removed her marker near the end. She's earned it several times already. Honestly, I'm pretty much dropping it after this. I don't even rant like this often, but a good story goes to shit like this and I feel a lot of my time is wasted. God.

Sorry for the rant again, just needed to vent.

u/Nepene [+1] (3 months later)

They needed an expert in dimensional magic and primordials to get out, and didn't predict that the primordial had corrupted the loop.

u/charliecrush [+1] (3 months later)

Regardless. She was always bad news. Only the mc never decided to see it properly. Either trick her into helping you and remove her marker, because she's a great risk already; or don't enlist her help, figure it out otherwise. Even if she hadn't betrayed them then and they'd gotten out of the loop, she would have likely used her gained experience to do some shady shit outside. Her personality was clear as sun from day one. What pisses me off is that I knew it, and I hoped the story would just disappoint me, but what do you know, lol. I'm certain there were many other choices. I only read the next chapter to confirm the betrayal, and there the mc goes into this bs spiral of reasons he had to add her to the group and that he wouldn't have, had he expected something like this. Well, you don't expect shit like this. You just expect the behavior of a person, and her expected behavior needed no explanation.

u/dragondraems42 [+1] (an hour later)

Due to the fact I had to go on a plane this afternoon, on some level I am deeply offended that the update didn't come early enough that I could read it on the plane

Ah, Silverlake, you fool. This will go catastrophically.

u/white_pencil [+1] (19 hours later)

alright, this might be a bit of a stretch but hear me out.

what if kierielle becomes a new silver lake? This chapter hinted at it again, the fingers and stuff, the grandmother was also a witch, she aspires to become a mage and this chapter hinted that with the palace orb they could get a whole bunch of time. with a bit of help from zorian to train her, it shouldn't be impossible to at least get a semi proficient kierielle.

u/Menolith [+3] Unworthy Opponent (a day later)

"Next Silverlake" as in "a skilled mage" or "an antagonistic, selfish asshole who almost literally sold her soul to an immortal godmonster"?

That said, I think Kirielle is going to become a mage if nothing fatal happens. She's very interested in that, and Zorian is more than happy to teach her. But that's for the future, and I don't see any reason at all why they'd try to use time dilation to train her of all the people instead of letting her progress in the normal world.

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