23 KiB
MOL Theory on... Everything?
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Author: u/p3t3r133 *
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URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/9dj39u/mol_theory_on_everything/
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Score: 44
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Created: 2018-09-06T14:23:23
Post:
Just started reading this last week and caught up last night on 89. I have some theories but not sure if they have been discussed so I figured I could post them here so I can be told that this has already been discussed.
TL;DR at bottom
Basically I think a angel set the marker on Zach and gave him the blessing for a larger mana well along with detailed instructions he should do along with the locations of the keys and their function. At some point his actions in a loop brought RR into the loop as a helper/friend (Zach and Veyer had very similar family situations, it makes sense that Zach would have approached him early on and befriended him.). The goal of this from the angel was to prevent the primordial's release.
Support of this:
Zach's large mana reserve has been mentioned as a curiosity but no explanation has been given, but QI's explanation of his large reserve seems to be the same story. He was given a larger mana reserve with no negative shaping impact. It was pointed out that Zach's huge mana had no negative impact on his shaping and that there was no evidence this was a family ability.
The angel put the marker on Zach to stop the primordial from getting released. Why go about this round about way of stopping it? It was said by Alanic that angels are tied by rules and can't always do the most obvious or direct path of action but that you have to trust they know what they are doing. Any more direct path of stopping the primordial is restricted to them so they placed the marker on Zach exactly a month before the predicted release to give him the most time to figure out how to stop it.
The angel clearly prepared a path for Zach by telling the people with the Ring to hand it over. Why would he do this one thing and nothing else to help him? He didnt. He probably at the beginning told Zach everything he needed to know about the loop and what he needed to do. He knew that he ahd no access to Zach in the loop so he prepared him as best he could. When they discovered the Sovereign Gate they made a point of mentioning how little they knew and how impossible it all was without that knowledge. Every time they discover an artifact or marker function they realize it would have been helpful if they'd found it in a earlier loop. I think we will discover Zach was given detailed instructions on how to get the keys once he lets Zorian into his mind.
Why does Zach's memory suck? He got betrayed by his 'friend' and that's why he (subconsciously) doesn't trust Zorian to look into it
QI had a memory of getting his blessing for his mana increase. Zach doesn't know why his is huge. Why doesn't Zach remember this? Because RR erased it from his memory. Why did he do this? Because RR is a bad mind mage. He erased everything about himself, and any details he had in his mind about or from the angel.
I suspect prior to his memory wipe, Zach was able to gather all 5 keys easily at the start of a loop. When he still had the instructions in his memory from the angel. The instructions included details on how he could retrieve the items, how to extend the length of the temporary markers, and all the other details Zorian and Zack frustratingly mention they wish they had an suspected were possible. Its possible much of this information was actually in the Orb but was emptied by RR when he left the loop himself. He then used those to train and figure out a way to stop the invaders. (this is why Zach instinctivly figures out how to use them all so much easier than Zorian, hes had them all in his possession before along with instructions on how they work) At one point he started using the crown to bring in more support and one of the people he brought in was RR, his friend Veyer, not knowing he was a cultist. Together (with anyone else he brought in) they tried to figure out how to stop the invaders while RR secretly supported them to perfect the invasion. Once RR had what he needed (probably the requisit mind magic ability learned from the cranium rats), he revoked the markers of everyone else Zach brought in and erased Zach's memory of himself, the loops they shared and any instructions from the angel and put some sort of geas on Zach to subtly direct his actions into not trying to stop the primordial's release
TL;DR: Angel prepared Zach extensively for time loop. Everything they worked for they achieved in hardmode, Zach was able to very early on get all the Keys with the angels directions but was still in the loop trying to figure out how to stop the primordial's release. Once RR was brought in via the crown, and achieved the required skills, he betrayed Zach and wiped his memories of himself and the angels instructions.
Edit: Just realized something more, when they give QI the hydra control dagger, he shows off by sticking it into himself. The dagger from the vault's main non time loop ability is to damage spiritual beings. If they offered him this dagger in a similar situation as they did the control dagger, he would stab himself in the same manner damaging his soul, which would trigger a retreat from his body giving up the soul. Zach could have stumbled into this earlier on. I dot think this would have removed him fro the resets as that is something you need to know about to activate.
Comments:
u/None [+14] (an hour later)
That's a theory I can believe. Just one question remains, why was Zach chosen in the first place?
u/p3t3r133 [+21] (an hour later)
Since the Sovereign Gate was once in their treasury, my guess is that the House Noveda are descendants of the Ikosian Emperor who first used the gate.
u/Nimelennar [+14] (2 hours later)
Given the various remarks the aranea have made about the difficulty of such precise mind modification, and the ease with which Zorian overpowered RR's mental defenses, I'd credit Panaxeth with wiping Zach's memories, rather than RR.
Otherwise, yes, that's about what I think is going on (+/- Veyers possibly being a red herring). Didn't think about the extensive preparation, though: you could very well be right about that.
u/p3t3r133 [+16] (2 hours later)
We know some things:
RR was not a very good mind mage. Zorian was much better than him when they first met and at that time Zorian was unable to probe memories, let alone edit them to the extent Zach is missing his.
Modifying memories is very difficult, Zorian is probably only just now able to do it to the extent Zach is missing memories
Zorian has never examined Zach's mind, he wont let him
Zach has at least 1 compulsion/geas on him, to ignore/forget/dismiss about mentions of Veyer
Looking at all these these I think it is likely that RR did not actually erase any of Zach memories, he wasn't good enough to do that. Instead he placed compulsions on Zach so that he couldn't 'remember' them. Basically the memories are still there but Zach can't access them.
I think when Zach finally lets Zorian examine him he will find all the memories there and allow Zach to access them again.
u/MagicwaffIez [+1] (11 days later)
Actually we don't know that Red Robe was a bad mind mage. in fact, we know he was pretty decent at it because he could use mind blank when soul killing the spiders, which is a very advanced spell. He also taught all of the invaders mind magic protection, which was giving the spiders a very hard time.
The reason that zorian Pwned him so hard at mind magic was because one, it was unexpected for how long he'd been looping, and two, Red Robe was only using only unstructured mind magic so that it doesn't mess with the markers.
Some things we know about unstructured mind magic: Ch 42
"Can you also use telepathy and mind reading in an unstructured manner, too?" he asked Xvim, acting on a hunch. "Me, personally? No. I've never had an interest in anything other than defending myself," Xvim said. "But if you're asking whether it's possible, the answer is yes… with caveats. It requires great dedication for rudimentary results – such an aspirant would never be able to duplicate the attack you just casually did, for instance, even after a lifetime of honing their skills."
Zorian made a similar conclusion in ch 63
As for how Red Robe bypassed its protection to mess with Zach's mind, Zorian wasn't quite sure… …but he had a suspicion it was related to Red Robe's use of non-structured mind magic. He distinctly remembered that Red Robe had been using non-structured mind magic on both him and Zach, despite being fairly bad at it. Which was kind of foolish of him at the face of it, since structured mind magic would have probably served a non-psychic like him a lot better in most regards. However, if the marker's contingency was aimed primarily at countering structured magic, and non-structured magic bypassed it to some extent, his choice of attack mode made perfect sense.
In my opinion, the marker was left over from zach's ancestors. No one uses the gate anymore because it's breaking, and the invasion fails to open the gate when red robe isn't helping. I think that the primordial is the one that triggered it. he's trying to up his chances of getting out.
u/melmonella [+7] Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you (an hour later)
Why would zach need the keys in the first place? Gate wasn't barred until RR tried to leave.
u/p3t3r133 [+17] (an hour later)
He didnt need the keys to leave, he needed the keys for their regular and time loop related abilities. He wouldn't have wanted to leave early on because he hadn't yet gained the power to stop the primordial from escaping. If the angel had filled him in on the details of the Sovereign Gate like I am theorizing, he wouldn't have been confused and lost, but had a mission, only after RR robbed him of his memories of that would have have started doing his aimless messing around and training we saw him doing at the start
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+2] Father of Learning (13 hours later)
But he said he didn't remember feeling like he knew what was happening when he first entered the time loop when Zorian first asked him about it. The memories were muddled sure, but Zach explicitly said it didn't feel like he was prepared for this.
u/p3t3r133 [+2] (22 hours later)
My theory is contingent on RR making him forget all the early resets where he knew what he was doing. If he did 2 years of resets with prepared knowledge, if RR placed a compulsion on him to make him not able to remember the instructions he'd also have to make him forget the first resets. So the following reset he'd not remember any of the following and would think reset number X was reset number 1
u/causalchain [+3] (23 hours later)
Surely he would notice the sudden increase in power + skills from the training he had done in the (2) forgotten years?
u/None [+7] (2 hours later)
What if the release of the primordial was the goal of the loop? We know a large operation that tries to free it. So why not make sure they get it in the first try.
Or if not the goal why Zach went into the loop, than the goal of the primordial beast, after it became aware of the loop and let RR out?
The reason for Zach to go into the loop could have been to get stronger and proof his guardian is a thief. And his family had some way to enter the Sovereign Gate. Maybe he didn't even know it would be a loop.
We wouldn't need some unknown information about an angel for that theory. (And the unknown laws angel have to obey.)
Also Zach could be evil. Did he ever let someone in his mind?
u/p3t3r133 [+6] (2 hours later)
What if the release of the primordial was the goal of the loop? We know a large operation that tries to free it. So why not make sure they get it in the first try.
Why would they mark Zach if they wanted to retain info from the loop?
Or if not the goal why Zach went into the loop, than the goal of the primordial beast, after it became aware of the loop and let RR out?
Primordial beast obviously wants to get out but he didnt start the loop, hes just taking advantage of it. The mentioned how the Gate construct security has degraded allowing it access, but therse no way he could have marked a pre loop Zach
The reason for Zach to go into the loop could have been to get stronger and proof his guardian is a thief. And his family had some way to enter the Sovereign Gate. Maybe he didn't even know it would be a loop.
Zach didn't know his guardian was swindling him until he entered the loop.
Also Zach could be evil. Did he ever let someone in his mind?
Thats totally inconsistent with everything that he's done, this would be the equivalent of the "And it was all a dream" twist ending
u/None [+5] (2 hours later)
Why would they mark Zach if they wanted to retain info from the loop?
They wouldn't... They would need to get an item from Zach's home and he stumbled into them... And two get marked... (red robes and zach)
Or Zach is evil. (Maybe the mindwipe changed that or he is still secretly evil.) Okay unlikely.
Primordial beast obviously wants to get out but he didnt start the loop, hes just taking advantage of it. The mentioned how the Gate construct security has degraded allowing it access, but therse no way he could have marked a pre loop Zach
Wouldn't need to mark Zach. He starts the loop and primordial offers the temporarly marked red robe a deal.
Zach didn't know his guardian was swindling him until he entered the loop.
You sure about that? I'm too lazy to look it up, but I remember it differently. I think he at least didn't like him pre loop.
Thats totally inconsistent with everything that he's done, this would be the equivalent of the "And it was all a dream" twist ending
Well, true, but you know my favourite fan theory? Red Robe could be a Simulacrum of Zach.
Still, he could have fighted with the lich just for the crown. And then just pretended. Still unlikely he is evil.
u/AngryEdgelord [+3] (13 hours later)
You sure about that? I'm too lazy to look it up, but I remember it differently. I think he at least didn't like him pre loop.
No, that's correct. Zach innocently thought his guardian was looking out for his best interests before the time loop. It wasn't until the time loop that he realized he was being screwed.
u/p3t3r133 [+1] (2 hours later)
You sure about that? I'm too lazy to look it up, but I remember it differently. I think he at least didn't like him pre loop.
Pretty sure, I read it all in the last week, I remember Zach saying he was pretty ignorant of everything until the loop. He didn't like his guardian but didn't know he robbed them. He thought staff were laid off to save money, ect. Didnt know he didnt have a lot of money until he tried to withdraw a lot.
I briefly thought RR was Zorian early on
u/Xtraordinaire [+3] Team Glimglam (4 hours later)
The biggest flaw in the theory is that aside from the ring and (maybe, unlikely) the knife, all other imperial artifacts were beyond angels' ability to retrieve for Zach. There is no smart way of getting the crown, you have to fight the lich the hard way.
If Zach is able to defeat the lich then it's not easy to betray him and wipe his memories. That would suggest that RR is stronger than QI, but that is clearly not the case.
u/p3t3r133 [+4] (4 hours later)
Its possible the angel prepared the way in some other method for the other items.
I'm just speculating, but really its not impossible for there to be easier ways to gain them. if nobody103 wanted there to be back doors, they could be introduced and not feel forced and out of place in the world he created. There is a definite theme in the story of Zach and Zorian walking up 10 flights of stairs only to see there was an elevator when they got to the top. Everytime they worked hard to get something they keep finding that there was an easier way and this would fit. Zorian trains to get memory packaging abilities, the orb grants that, Zorian literally kills himself to get soul perception, the ring grants that. They develop new methods to open gates to teleport across the world, the staff does that.
Also I just realized something, when they hand QI the divine dagger, he shows off by stabbing it into himself. The dagger has the abillity to damage spiritual being (in addition to its Time loop ability) I bet if they sat down with QI and offered the dagger to him, he would stab it into himself, and force himself out of his own body (without invoking the time loop ability)
They never asked for the dagger, its possible they could have somehow talked it out of the royal vaults. Or there could be some secret entrance visible to divine magic or something. Maybe the royal line has some divine mandate from the gods or something the angel knows Zach could invoke.
For the crown,there could be some item in the vault that can be used to shut down QI. Heck, QI is super reasonable apparently, if they needed it they could have probably worked out a deal to borrow it under supervision to mark someone.
There could have been an item the dragon was willing to trade the staff for, possibly even in the royal vault.
These are all pure speculation, and I dont think its any of these are how it will play out but its easy to just make up a possibility so it wouldn't be hard for the author to fit one in the story if this is what he intended. Everyone in my OP was more supported by story points.
u/Seyt77 [+1] (13 hours later)
Hmm if his memories had the gates passwords then that could be how he manage to snag the treasures as that's the only way I can figure he was able to snag them since there's no hint of a minitiature gate spell like zorian's existing before he did it.
u/None [+2] (3 hours later)
[removed]
u/p3t3r133 [+5] (3 hours later)
The temporary markers put on from the crown only last 6 restarts. Pretty sure there are more than 6 restarts between Zorian getting a marker (which would be the point Zach lost his memory), and RR leaving the loop.
They are told they only last 6, but they talk about how they are pretty sure thats an arbitrary limitation that they could bypass if they had all the keys.
Also it's been strongly hinted early on that Zach's huge mana pool without significant loss of manipulation is a bloodline ability.
Its not strongly hinted, there's just one internal monologue paragraph about it. Zorian theorizes that it might be a bloodline ability, but seems pretty unsure about that and then they kind of drop it.
u/Seyt77 [+1] (13 hours later)
Didn't Zach complain about his bad shaper abilities before the time loop and attributed that to his large mana pool? He even went on to say how it's a wonder he was able to do anything magic at all due to his large mana pool
u/Nimelennar [+5] (21 hours later)
He has the shaping skills of someone with Magnitude 25. Which is at the very top end of what you can naturally have. As a comparison, Zorian is Magnitude 8, and normal is about 11-12. So, yes, his shaping skills are significantly impacted, but he's simply got enough practice in to compensate for a lot of it (although he literally can't achieve the same level of shaping that Zorian can). Before the loop, though, he was having a lot of trouble in school because shaping was just so much harder for him than anyone else.
However, his mana reserves are Magnitude 50. Which is both ridiculously, inhumanly high, and way out of proportion to its effect on his shaping skills. Which is why they're so interested in QI's divine blessing.
u/None [+2] (3 hours later)
Also in favour: MoL has some things in common with ShaperV's Time Braid, where an angel did it.
(Although I doubt that nobody103 read that fic before starting)
u/sambelulek [+2] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (a day later)
To claim the ring, Zach must travel to Xlotic. It is possible with the wand, but to claim the wand, Zach must travel to somewhere in Blantyre. It is possible with Bakora Gates, but to activate the Bakora Gates, Zach must already has both the key and the method to activate it. Once Zach reached Blantyre, he must be able to reach and convince Violet Eye, a greedy and powerful mage dragon, to part with the wand. Not just squish him like a first circle human mage he is.
I'm not saying this string of ifs is impossible. I'm saying it's a stretch.
u/p3t3r133 [+1] (a day later)
I think the royal vault is much easier to get into that Z&Z know. The dagger must be the first item he gets, and there could be other items in there that would help him achieve the problems you pointed out.
RR seemed to have gotten the dagger in a method that did not raise any alarms. The loop in which the Aranea were removed from the loop, there was no mention of an uproar over a missing item from the vault. This implies that there was a method to get this dagger without raising the alarm, which I believe RR learned from Zach, who learned it from the Angel.
I dont have any solid ideas on how they could have gotten the far ones, my leading idea is theres some artifact in the vault he could use to activate the gates, but that's just speculation. The core of my theory is that Zach was given detailed instructions on what to do in the loop and forgot them do to RR, which I think there is some level of story evidence for. The far items are a stretch, I agree, but its very consistent with the story for the guys to go about something the hardest way possible to find out there was a easy option only after they dont need it.
u/GlueBoy [+1] anti-skub (a day later)
I agree with most things, except I think that Veyers as RR is a red herring. I think it makes narrative sense that it's someone that has been active in the story, so anyone but Veyers.
If I had to, I would put money on Damien being red robe. Zach went to him find the scepter, gave him a temp marker, and Damien learned to use his freaky mentalist powers. He was extremely unscrupulous with its use and managed to hack the marker, and eventually betrayed Zach. Why would the author make Damien a native mentalist if he was going to leave that chekov's gun unfired?
The reason that Zach irrationally distrusts Zorian to check his mental integrity is not just due an implanted compulsion, but also partly due to Zach's sub-conscious noting Zorian's similarity to Damien.
The final showdown would have much more gravitas if it was between an RR Damien/Silverlake and Zach/Zorian. Possibly also with a mindjacked Zach on team evil, at first.
u/p3t3r133 [+1] (a day later)
I don't see how he would be able to get back to Cyrion in time to kill Zach at the start of the reset already having a robe