16 KiB
The gods are bastards
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Author: u/None *
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URL:
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Score: 7
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Created: 2018-09-19T02:35:09
Post:
[deleted]
Comments:
u/sicutumbo [+12] (13 minutes later)
Not completed, and in the somewhat near future the author is going on an extended hiatus from the story to post another story and avoid burnout. There's still quite a lot of story to chew through though.
He aims to post MWF, but often doesn't make that schedule due to various issues he explains in the comments. Expect about 2 posts a week on random days.
u/rthvty [+2] (23 minutes later)
Alright thanks and do u think a practical guide to evil is better cause I'm considering reading that over the gods are bastards
u/Escapement [+22] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (35 minutes later)
Both are YA-ish dark-toned fantasy novels with interesting worldbuilding and great witty banter between characters (in the style of e.g. Joss Whedon's Buffy The Vampire Slayer). So there are a lot of similarities, and if you like one then trying the other is probably worth it, especially when they're both free except for the time you spend reading them.
That all said, I personally like Practical Guide much better.
I think the biggest difference between the two, for me, was that Practical Guide had better matching between characters' narrated abilities and the story themes with the actual story events. That is, in TGAB we are told Character X is a academic genius and planner, Character Y is super powerful and unique, Character Z is a violent person who is good at fighting... and then in the actual plot Character X doesn't have any good ideas or knowledge ever and is instead a dumbass at all times, there are like 5 people exactly like Character Y and also none of them are a big deal, and Character Z never fights impulsively and loses many more fights than they win rather casting doubt on the whole 'good at fighting' idea. The plot has characters constantly talking about themes of "The world is more interconnected now and you can't just fight, you have to have Cunning Schemes and work with others..., etc" but all the main characters Cunning Schemes and so forth don't work and the only times they succeed is when they just fight.
There are many more differences, stylistic, thematic, and so forth between the two - but that was the biggest problem that I had with TGAB, that I didn't have with Practical Guide.
u/rthvty [+3] (an hour later)
I remember I tried reading tgab once but I couldn't stand the main character does she ever get less annoying
u/Solonarv [+11] Chaos Legion (7 hours later)
She stops being as much of a viewpoint character, and becomes a less annoying character. So, yes.
u/LordSwedish [+8] Q Continuum (10 hours later)
That's one of my favourite parts. She isn't really the main character and is a great example of character growth done right.
u/Schuano [+3] (2 days later)
The characterization in TGAB gets much much stronger as it goes along.
I think Shaine, Juniper and Fross are the only ones who have interesting non cookie cutter stuff from the beginning.
The rest of the them start out very explicitly as characters taken off of a character sheet and it takes a while for them to develop.
You're right that the interconnection theme is very much observed in its breach to have an actual effect on the story. It is getting better... but if someone would just make the author a map so I can figure out where things are...
The author also has a bad tendency to introduce new main characters.... all the time and they don't get cut. The combat feels less real because all of these people with phenomenal cosmic power and casualties are non existent.
Also, the thing is long. Like almost Worm length and not done. It's at 13 books now.
It's still worth the read and it has so many really good ideas and interesting settings in it. (The Golden Sea is excellent)
u/Nimelennar [+13] (2 hours later)
I think that, after professional editing (and paring down the word count by at least half), TGaB would probably be the better story. The worldbuilding is better, the overarching plot and underlying mysteries have clearly been thought through, as they're being exposed piece by piece, and I prefer the idea of a world evolving away from the need to kill everything you oppose espoused by TGaB, rather than Cat's having to murder her way to peace. It definitely needs the firm hand of an editor, though. 50% is a low estimate of what could be cut out and not have much of value lost.
On the other hand, I really appreciate how PGtE is written. Technically, it appeals to me a lot more, and the story constantly feels like it's in motion. Not to say that it couldn't benefit from some light editing, but most of the elements that have been included are important to the story; I don't think editing it would significantly improve it, the way it would improve TGaB. However, PGtE is a perpetual murder-fest; I'd say "in the style of George R.R. Martin," but GRRM would have killed off half of the Cat's merry band of protagonists, and probably all of the Calamities, by now. Yes, I get that there's in-story justification as to why this is, but it just isn't as satisfying rooting for someone because they'd cause the least damage if they win, as opposed to TGaB, where the protagonists are all trying to become better people, so that they can make the world a better place without having to depopulate it first.
So, yes. If you want a story with better fundamentals, and are willing to endure some slow bits in order to learn the answers to the questions that the author is carefully sprinkling into the narrative, go with TGaB. If you want something that isn't trying to be quite so deep, but grabs you and pulls you along an an entertaining ride, go with PGtE.
Or, personally, I think there's value in reading both.
u/C_Densem [+17] LessWrong (than usual) (3 hours later)
"TGaB, where the protagonists are all trying to become better people, so that they can make the world a better place without having to depopulate it first."
To be fair, Cat is trying to do that too. She's just having a lot less luck at it.
u/AurelianoTampa [+18] (10 hours later)
"TGaB, where the protagonists are all trying to become better people, so that they can make the world a better place without having to depopulate it first."
To be fair, Cat is trying to do that too. She's just having a lot less luck at it.
I laughed when I read your comment, but thinking about it, it's not really true, is it? Cat is trying to make Callow a better place, sure, but she is definitely not trying to become a better person. A better strategist, or ruler? Yes. But her entire shtick from the very start of the series has been that she's willing to do whatever it takes to accomplish her goals, no matter what the cost to her soul or body will be. "Justifications are for the just" and all that. Cat willingly embraces becoming a worse person if it means she has a better chance at saving Callow. The TGAB analog would be Archpope Justinian, IMO.
u/Nimelennar [+13] (12 hours later)
I think she's putting a lot of effort into not becoming more of a monster than she has to be to achieve her goals, but she's consciously avoiding any kind of "redemption" story, because she knows what the likely consequence would be.
u/C_Densem [+5] LessWrong (than usual) (14 hours later)
Touche. To you both!
u/AurelianoTampa [+11] (10 hours later)
For yet another opinion, I think the main difference is that PGTE tells a single story - the story of Catherine Foundling of Callow - while TGAB tells the history of a world through several interconnecting stories. Both share some similar elements: fantasy setting, worldbuilding, magic, great characters, and hilarious banter. But they have very different feels.
PGTE is pretty straight forward and constantly has a sense of urgency. The stakes keep rising for Cat, and she's constantly getting pushed from one desperate emergency to the next. There's an entire world (actually a few worlds, if you count Arcadia and the hells) that we know exists, but mostly is just casually mentioned in side chapters, introductory quotes, or throwaway sentences. It kinda almost feels like Dark Souls in a way - you get a grasp of a much larger picture and loads of history through item text, but the plot itself revolves around the action.
TGAB is more meandering; while the author tells us from the start that "a great Doom is coming," it never really feels like there's much urgency. Instead, the series explores more of the world and its history, primarily because that history is extremely relevant to whatever this coming Doom is going to be. This is done by following several different characters or groups of characters, with various degrees of intersection with one another. The plus side is that it allows readers to really get to know the world, its peoples, and its politics; and it also allows the author a chance to explore multiple philosophies and motivations through different sets of eyes. The down side is that it means whatever plot you're most interested in might be forced onto the sidelines for a few books.
If you had to choose one series to read I'd recommend PGTE, simply because it's more coherent and well paced. TGAB has a lot of great moments, but it also has FOURTEEN books to read through (compared to PGTE, which is currently on book 4 of 5). TGAB has a much larger time investment. In my opinion it's absolutely worth making that investment, but if your time is limited, PGTE has more payoff quicker.
u/Morghus [+2] (2 days later)
That's probably the reason I got bored with TGAB (TBAG would've been hilarious) is the lack of urgency. Sort of like the old Star Wars vs the newer Star Wars. The old ones employed urgency and The Big Bad to push our plucky heroes to victory, the newer Star Wars feel a lot more relaxed and, frankly, quite boring.
That's where PGTE wins handily for me, since pretty much every chapter has some sense of urgency and Big Bad being projected with a Sword of Damocles
u/GrafZeppelin127 [+11] (40 minutes later)
If I might interject, I lost interest in A Practical Guide to Evil in about the middle and haven’t picked it up again, but I binged all the way through The Gods Are Bastards over the course of several weeks just recently. It’s got a fairly standard-genre sort of feel in the beginning, but don’t be fooled—there is a whole hell of a lot of foreshadowing and fridge logic being set up behind the scenes that you don’t even notice while reading it, which is very fun once you get to the revealing bits.
More importantly—if you share my priorities—The Gods Are Bastards is just plain fun to read. The dialogue is some of the most snappy and hilarious I’ve ever had the pleasure to read, there are plenty of moments that made me feel genuine pathos for the characters, and there’s a lot of clever plots flying around to lend things an air of mystery and urgency. If I had to criticize, I’d say the start is a bit counter to what the story’s real tone and rhythm is, and the characters are perhaps not as “real” feeling to me as those in, say, Worth the Candle or Worm—both of which have the most people-like characters I can think of off the top of my head, so that’s a rather high bar to clear. It’s really a matter of tastes and preferences, you might find that aspect better in TGAB or not really care about that part at all.
u/paradoxinclination [+12] (a day later)
The dialogue is some of the most snappy and hilarious I’ve ever had the pleasure to read,
I liked TGAB well enough, but if you're specifically comparing it to APGTE, I think the Guide wins handily in the 'snappy dialogue' category. The epigraphs in particular are just hilarious-
“I imagine the High Lords would be inclined to protest the mind control, if I hadn’t seized control of their minds, which just goes to show this was the right decision all along.”
—Dread Emperor Imperious, shortly before being torn apart by an Ater mob
u/None [+5] (2 days later)
“I imagine the High Lords would be inclined to protest the mind control, if I hadn’t seized control of their minds, which just goes to show this was the right decision all along.” —Dread Emperor Imperious, shortly before being torn apart by an Ater mob
-- Khepri
u/GrafZeppelin127 [+3] (a day later)
Eh, different tastes. TGAB’s dialogue just hits my funny bone better.
u/mojojo46 [+1] (22 hours later)
Where did you lose interest in PGtE? I felt that there was a real slump in book 2, but then it picked up again pretty after that.
u/GrafZeppelin127 [+1] (22 hours later)
In the latter part of the legion arc.
u/mojojo46 [+8] (22 hours later)
Yeah, the was definitely getting pretty boring, in my opinion. I almost stopped reading there. For what it's worth, it picks up a lot once you get through that and is generally on an upward slope in quality each book.
u/sicutumbo [+3] (an hour later)
Only just started reading PGtE today, so I can't really make a comparison.
u/None [+3] (an hour later)
I prefer TGaB myself. You can always try reading the first two chapters of each as a sample, see which you prefer.
u/Schuano [+3] (2 days later)
The Practical Guide has a problem in that the base story of the Cat, who is less interesting than Black.
I don't want the story of the plucky girl who wins through grit and determination. That's dime a dozen.
I want the story of the person who thinks their way out. (Someone like Black.... or Taylor in Worm) The satisfaction in some of Worm's best fight scenes were not that Taylor was so very very strong or mean or plucky... it was figuring out how to make here weak power effective and outmaneuver the bigger and stronger people.
u/Lugnut1206 [+1] (21 hours later)
you remember where you heard about the hiatus?
in the comments in the last few chapters or..?
u/elysian_field_day [+2] (22 hours later)
yeah, the author mentioned something along these lines a few months ago however the guy is rather prolific and I dont think it will be one of those cases where the work never gets picked up again. The guy is enormously invested in his work.
Personally, I love both serials btw - TGaB is in my opinion more philosophical, discussing various interesting topics in a fairly natural and compelling way, whereas PGTE is a wonderfully wild and creative world setting full of amazing villains, snappy one-liners and trope deconstruction.
u/sicutumbo [+2] (a day later)
https://tiraas.wordpress.com/2018/08/31/bonus-33-mister-nice-guy/
Here, most of the way down the page there's a long comment by the author that should be easy to spot. I wasn't entirely correct on the details, apparently TGaB will be concluded within the next couple books, then hiatus on the universe, then a potential sequel. The relevant paragraph is the fourth from the bottom.
u/None [+10] (a day later)
genuinely surprised everyone is saying the dialogue is good. tgab is interesting for plot and worldbuilding but after reading the same exchange between trissiny and gabriel for the 75th time i sorta started skimming the conversations between the younger characters.
u/C_Densem [+14] LessWrong (than usual) (a day later)
The real great doom is the friends we made along the way.
u/ketura [+2] Organizer (2 days later)
Do you just make a point of plunging to your doom every so often because it amuses you to watch doom panic when it sees you coming?