148 KiB
[RT] [HF] Mother of Learning Chapter 90: Change of Plans
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Author: u/Xtraordinaire Team Glimglam*
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URL: https://www.fictionpress.com/s/2961893/90/Mother-of-Learning
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Score: 265
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Created: 2018-09-23T23:35:46
Post:
Comments:
u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+52] (3 hours later)
I wonder if they actually have to worry about Silverlake. I mean, she's a totally selfish person who would betray anyone and hurt innocents if it ends in her favor, so I can easily see her trying to defeat the real Silverlake first to get all her stuff back. And she would be able to do it quite easily too, since she knows everything about her real self while her real self doesn't even know her loop self exists. Then, since she has to defeat her real self anyway, she could very well erase Silverlake's mind and transfer her own mind over to her body, the same way evil simulacrums try to take over the real mage's body. Then, since she would be back in her own body rather than Paxaneth's puppet body, she wouldn't have to worry about the death pact and have no incentive to release it.
u/AngryEdgelord [+19] (3 hours later)
Good point. Necromancers should be able to get around having a kill-switch in their bodies by body-hopping. As long as the kill-switch isn't put on their souls at least.
u/Arno_Nymus [+13] (9 hours later)
Even if it is on their souls. I guess as an immortal soul magician she already knows her own soul well enough to remove everything that does not belong there. I guess there is some risk involved in tinkering with your own soul even for most expert soul magicians, but that should be negligible. At least for someone with her skills.
u/AngryEdgelord [+8] (15 hours later)
I think the best explanation here is that since PX is best at flesh and mind magic, he plans on making some mechanism that binds the soul to the flesh more thoroughly than normal bodies so a soul mage can't easily escape. It doesn't have to be an unbreakable bond after all, it just needs to last a month.
u/Nimelennar [+3] (12 hours later)
Depends. Can Panaxeth recreate bits of the Marker?
We already know that stuff can be triggered by tampering with the Marked soul, or by the Marked soul leaving the body, so it's just a matter of copying those mechanisms, and having the result be death instead of restarting the loop.
u/Tommy2255 [+1] (17 days later)
The soul is a repository of magical power and experience and a backup copy of the personality for the convenience of gods, but it needn't be the only backup copy. Zorian could probably take over his original body via mind whammy. That way he'd have his new mind, but his original body and soul. That would have the downside of losing him all of his hard-won shaping skill, but he could fall back on the spell formula expertise that he had originally intended to specialize in in the first place.
Alternatively, there might just be a soul magic method to photocopy souls. If you can imprint your personality onto raw unshaped magic to form a simulcrum, then maybe it could be possible to imprint a copy of yourself onto an existing soul instead. That route also has the advantage of being more likely to lead toward lich!Zorian, which is a path I've been advocating for for a very long time now.
u/Gr_Cheese [+9] (16 hours later)
Have we confirmed that a straight up mind transfer or body hopping is possible? As in Person A(Mind A) => Person B(Mind A), Person A(Mind Null)? I feel like Zorian would have gone body-hopping already if it were that simple.
Otherwise Silverlake runs into her simulacrum problem, with Person A(Mind A) & Person B(Mind A) and an expiration date on Person A as her final outcome. Silverlake A(A) wouldn't allow for the destruction of herself, Silverlake B(A) would know that, and they'd probably end up fighting until one or the other is dead since Panaxeth rampaging is a massive negative for B(A) with no upside and A(A) needs Panaxeth free.
u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (4 hours later)
Ah, poor prime!Silverlake, we barely knew ye...
u/notagiantdolphin [+29] (10 hours later)
Well, if they emerge they have a quick (if underdeveloped) ally. "HEY WITCH. AN OLDER MORE POWERFUL YOU WANTS YOU DEAD. WANNA HELP US NECK HER?".
Bam. Alliance made. Silverlake knows any old version of her would come for her eventually - she's a terrible person.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (3 days later)
WANNA HELP US NECK HER?
Not before she completes her youth potion, at any rate.
u/FriendlyAnnatar [+50] The Greater Good (42 minutes later)
In Zorian's place, what would you do with Panaxeth's deal? Barely any time before the loop ends and you die, with its assertions that Zach is ultimately your enemy (or at least your successes are mutually exclusive) hanging over your head.
The thing is, obviously there're still a great deal of Knightian unknowns remaining and Zorian is essentially being prodded by a probable superintelligent being. Those random phrases and off-topic discussions Panaxeth was saying to some loopers? I'm fairly certain it was throwing low effort stimuli at them to improve its mental model of them, which implies it probably already has a good one of Zorian (having been through many more unique loops means a larger dataset). Combined with its superior knowledge and processing power, if it wasn't for narrative reasons I would assume this was a guaranteed losing situation.
Personally,
! I feel like there's really no point in agreeing to Panaxeth's deal because ultimately you're disabling the Controller for what might be nothing; Panaxeth isn't obligated to follow through on his end of the deal.
!Broader analysis notwithstanding, I feel like at this point I would need to somehow disable Zach and take a look at his mind with an aranean guide to verify Panaxeth's claims. There are risks, but it's worth it.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+55] (an hour later)
Panaxeth doesn't actually SEEM to be a superintelligence though. It seems to have vast capabilities, but while it can record things with perfect clarity (supposedly) it has an admittedly limited capability to process information. It also fails spectacularly to convince most of the group. What we can say with relative certainty is that Zach's magical capacity is superhuman, that someone or something divine has allowed him the single largest power known to ever be given to a mortal (the Sovereign Gate), and that Panaxeth is more than willing to manipulate and lie (his accounts to multiple different people disagree with each other).
He's willing to use a portion of his remaining power, which he's stated is limited, in order to get rid of Zach. That would imply that if you actually wanted to beat Panaxeth, Zach is useful. Also there's no reason to trust that Panaxeth would ever ACTUALLY release you. He has to use the power he is clearly cautious of using in order to pay you for a service you've already rendered. I doubt he would be troubled by not keeping a deal with a mere human.
No. I wouldn't take the deal. I would consider taking the original deal that let's me out for the death bond, if only to help stop his resurrection, but that would only be a very last resort. Tricking Panaxeth into letting you do that doesn't seem too incredibly difficult. Even after extensively researching Zorian, it thinks it's wise to mention that it views destroying an entire city as an unfortunate side-effect of getting out. It seems to have a bit of trouble actually understanding human motivations and thought processes.
u/rtsynk [+25] (an hour later)
It also fails spectacularly to convince most of the group.
or Silverlake was just the quickest to turn
(not to mention it didn't even bother to try to convince some of the others)
u/abnotwhmoanny [+8] (2 hours later)
That's a fair point, but the only conversation we get to see actually happen is the one with Zorian, where it fails miserably. That's on top of the fact that it used it's conversation with Zorian's brother entirely to help get information to convince Zorian. So it managed to convince Silverlake to betray people. That seems like something a subhuman could accomplish given you could actually save her, let alone a superintelligence.
u/ketura [+2] Organizer (3 hours later)
The hell does "quickest" mean while under time dilation?
u/HeroOfOldIron [+8] (7 hours later)
Least effort invested maybe?
u/RockLeethal [+1] (6 hours later)
or simply that silverlake was the most useful and it already knew it would only convince her
u/FriendlyAnnatar [+9] The Greater Good (2 hours later)
I definitely agree that it's performance appeared subpar for a superintelligence, but that's probably what it wants you to think. /s
I was assuming that since it got Silverlake so easily it was just feeling the others out. Especially given its time dilation powers, that seems like an easy strategy to prepare for the next conversation if there is one and leave the best chance of convincing ZZ it's safe to try again without Silverlake.
And overall I still think it displays good intelligence--Zorian is strongly hostile to Panaxeth so he didn't waste much time on him initially, but by his second encounter Panaxeth has a very tempting offer in place and is playing mind games.
But it's possible there's some other reason- maybe it has limited processing power so it didn't waste any on members of the group with limit usefulness (Taiven, Nora). Maybe you're right and it's performance was underwhelming because it's just a weak AI with tremendous resources (e.g. the Chimp in Peter Watt's Sunflower setting).
P. S. : Actually, on a re-reading Xvim asks why it wasn't more effective at tempting them, and the speculation was that the primordial didn't have total awareness of individuals in the loop / sees them as alien.
u/None [+5] (7 hours later)
[deleted]
u/addmoreice [+2] (19 hours later)
I agree, but to be fair, if you are a super-intelligence and *sub-super-intelligent* beings have a viable threat/risk, then playing at sub-super-intelligence is a viable, nay even smart, play.
u/DismalWard77 [+4] (an hour later)
Thing is the original deal is off the table since the gate is barred and he has enough people. He seems to want Zach gone permanently and would be stupid to let Zorian go out at all since Zorian has a time limit where he dies regardless so Panaxeth has no reason to help him at all even if he does something to Zach.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+6] (an hour later)
The gate can be unbarred at any time with the key, and while the original deal was SUPPOSEDLY off the table, Panaxeth seems to be more than willing to go back on his word if he thinks it will help him. He might not be worried enough to help Zorian escape now, but if Zach used his key to waltz out he might be a bit more desperate.
u/MagicwaffIez [+6] (3 hours later)
The gate no longer thinks of zorian as a controller... If zach leaves then the loop will be destroyed immediately...
u/abnotwhmoanny [+1] (4 hours later)
That's only true after the current loop ends though, right? Until then Zorian has the privileges of a controller.
u/MagicwaffIez [+3] (4 hours later)
The loop ends when zach dies, everything in zach's marker seems to work... we have nothing to imply it wouldn't end the loop when he leaves, like it's supposed to
u/abnotwhmoanny [+1] (4 hours later)
Well we know everything in Zach's marker doesn't work. Zach's marker being damaged is a key plot point earlier on. Which is one of the reasons he can't purposely restart the loop, like Zorian can. That being said, you are right about the loop restarting only when he dies and not when Zorian does. That might imply that it would behave similarly upon him leaving, but we don't have definitive evidence of that either. Certainly it would be bad to make a plan that centers around Panathex getting desperate after Zach leaves.
u/Lightwavers [+5] * s̮̹̃rͭ͆̄͊̓̍ͪ͝e̮̹̜͈ͫ̓̀̋̂v̥̭̻̖̗͕̓ͫ̎ͦa̵͇ͥ͆ͣ͐w̞͎̩̻̮̏̆̈́̅͂t͕̝̼͒̂͗͂h̋̿* (6 hours later)
Where is that mentioned? Zach's mind is damaged, but his marker never is.
u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (4 hours later)
> Zach's marker being damaged is a key plot point earlier on.
Not that I've ever heard of, no.
> he can't purposely restart the loop, like Zorian can.
He probably can by now. That was a matter of personal soul perception, not marker damage. Actually, they've established that Zach's marker is much more intact and functional than Zorian's.
Plus, the Guardian has run a system check now, confirmed Zach as the sole Controller, and recognised Zorian as an anomaly. I wouldn't rely on Zorian having full privileges any more.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+1] (6 hours later)
Well, you may very well be right there. I distinctly remember Zach's marker being damaged from the beginning battle with the lich, but it's been far enough back that my memory of the matter is unreliable. I shall concede the point to you sir.
u/cjet79 [+2] (16 hours later)
I think what you are remembering is that Zach doesn't have control of his marker like Zorian. But thats because Zach has no way to gain soul sight. Because any method that would grant him soul sight is taken as an attack on his soul and it immediately restarts the loup.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (22 hours later)
Half right. Soul sight isn't necessary to sense and manipulate one's own soul.
The reason Zorian gained marker manipulation first is because a) he'd had more practice at personal soul sensing, and b) he could do accelerated near-death soul sense training.
By now, Zach almost certainly can manipulate his own marker. He has enough personal soul awareness to create simulacra, and he has the soul sight ring.
u/sambelulek [+1] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (a day later)
Nope, his privilege no longer intact. Zorian has already lost his right for response from Guardian.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+1] (a day later)
The Guardian recognizes Zorian as an anomaly, but also states that he still has some Controller privileges in the system. He also states that that will all be taken care of at the end of the current loop, which would mean that it's not something the Guardian can currently do anything about.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (4 hours later)
Zorian could seal Zach's memories reversibly and use that as leverage. "If you back out on our deal, I'll restore Zach's memories and let him leave."
u/Kuratius [+4] (4 hours later)
I don't think that's going to work too well.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (5 hours later)
Please elaborate? A memory-wiped Zach suits the primordial's purposes just fine, so long as his memories aren't restored. Why shouldn't it accept that and let Zorian out?
(The other half of this plan involves planting a hidden compulsion to make Zach leave the loop by himself once Zorian is gone.)
u/Kuratius [+2] (5 hours later)
Short answer: Primordial has no incentive to let Zorian out. Zorian would have to make a timebomb that keeps him necessary.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (6 hours later)
If the primordial could just obliterate him, it would have done that before he completed the Key.
If it refuses to let him out, he can threaten to restore Zach's memories and let Zach out.
What course of action do you think Panaxeth will take?
u/abnotwhmoanny [+3] (6 hours later)
The danger there is that your trusting Panaxeth directly with your soul. He's offering to pull it out of the loop and make you a new body. He could do the first half of that, effectively neutralizing you. Presuambly he has some control over you soul at this point and could destroy it, but that's just conjecture. At the very least, he could leave you a bodyless soul, which I remember not going very well in Zorian's training. With no body to return to, he's fucked.
u/DismalWard77 [+3] (11 hours later)
Taking Panaxeth's deal would be utterly stupid of Zorian to do and threatening him wouldn't convince the Primordial to not fuck over Zorian in the process of leaving the loop. Zorian has to get out some other means because he is putting himself in Panaxeth's hands would be borderline suicidal.
u/-Fender- [+27] (an hour later)
Rooting through Zach's mind at this point in the story has basically become unavoidable and inevitable. But I agree that it's most likely not going to be with the purpose of shattering it, but rather with the intent of discovering how it was tampered and what exactly Zach had been told about the loop by the angels before his memory was erased by Red Robe.
u/None [+27] (3 hours later)
[deleted]
u/Luck732 [+7] (5 hours later)
We still don't actually know who RR is, I would say that is bigger.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+12] (6 hours later)
Or how the hell they became a looper. Assuming it is Veyers, I'd guess that Panathex intervened somehow, but one would expect the Sovereign Gate to prevent that kind of thing. I mean, that's pretty obviously something one of the primordials would want to do, so it would have happened in the past uses of the gate if it was that simple. Right? Unless there's something special about Panathex specifically.
u/Angelbaka [+14] (11 hours later)
Judging on what just happened and what we know of Zach's character, I would bet that pre-memory edit Zach brought RR into the gate, where the primordial had one of his little "talks" with him, agreed to a deal, and altered his marker as part of the payment. This would explain motivation, timing and abilities and is utterly consistent with post-edit Zach's actions as a Looper.
u/Mr-Mister [+3] (a day later)
and altered his marker as part of the payment
That, or read and overwrote his mind each time (since it can "remember" things prefectly).
u/Angelbaka [+1] (a day later)
The primordial has shown no ability or inclination for mine magic so far, honestly. Just ridiculous knowledge of what has happened so far.
u/abnotwhmoanny [-1] (15 hours later)
Maybe, but RR is helping the invasion succeed since before Zach's encounter with the lich in the beginning of the story. That would mean he knew about Veyers at that point and did nothing to stop him throughout the entire restart. He was clearly in no rush or worry about anything, which might be consistent if he believed the attack at the end didn't matter, being in a loop and all, but he seems to care about the people of the city dying a good deal.
I'm not all saying your wrong, just that Zach is an idiot if your right. Which he is. So that's fair.
u/Angelbaka [+5] (16 hours later)
Maybe, but RR is helping the invasion succeed since before Zach's encounter with the lich in the beginning of the story.
Well, yeah, the whole senario I'm proposing would have happened before Zorian entered the loop, including Zach's memory edit.
That would mean he knew about Veyers at that point and did nothing to stop him throughout the entire restart. He was clearly in no rush or worry about anything, which might be consistent if he believed the attack at the end didn't matter, being in a loop and all, but he seems to care about the people of the city dying a good deal.
Why does that mean he would have known about Veyers? Zach was almost certainly mindfucked pre-Zorian-looping, although it was admittedly offscreen and we don't have a ton of details. That means that he had no knowledge of RR by the time we see him in the story.
u/abnotwhmoanny [-1] (16 hours later)
Zach was almost certainly mindfucked pre-Zorian-looping, although it was admittedly offscreen and we don't have a ton of details.
What evidence do we have of this? RR certainly would have been capable of it, I suppose, but is there any actual evidence of it happening? The story seemed to lay the memory problems mostly on Zach's soul being damaged. There's a decent case for it based strictly on circumstances being as they are, but is there any actual evidence? Also, if Veyers wanted to stop Zach as a threat he could have done a lot more than just erase Zach's memory of him specifically, right? There are protections on Zach to prevent meddling with his mind or soul, but it would seem RR has gotten around that.
u/Angelbaka [+5] (17 hours later)
The primary evidence we have of this is Zach's own comments during his first "teamed" loop with Zorian: Even that early, he has no idea what's happening. Then, later, when QI uses self-destruct on them, there is no mention of either suffering any memory loss from the soul damage (Zorian's augmented memory provides an excellent control sample here).
Your counterpoints are actually something Zorian brings up in-story when they first notice the memory hole regarding Veyers; Zorian remarks something along the lines of "it's amazing he was skilled enough to pull this off around the failsafes and stupid enough to not lay false tracks (because Veyers is the only one he forgot about)." This is actually a big part of the theory for Veyers NOT being RR.
As for it being caused by soul damage, I think we actually DON'T have any evidence for that having been the cause, and again, I believe Zorian specifically adresses that as unlikely due to the fairly specific and targeted nature of the memory loss (Zach remembers all the other classmates and several people from school who weren't even in their class but nothing about veyers specifically.)
This chapter also tenatively confirms Zach as the original looper, which would make permanently removing him from the loop extremely dangerous; even with a modified marker. if the original were 'soulkilled' or in some other way permanently removed from the loop, it's very
probablepossible the loop would collapse or cease to exist. As for less fatal methods of disablement, we don't know. It's possible (even likely) that Zach suffered severe trauma from his mindfuck sessions, but Zach wouldn't have noticed; we have evidence that he's completely unaware of 'coma' runs (this would also have given RR fairly uncontested and uninterrupted access to Zach for long periods to 'fine tune' his mental surgery, as we've seen that Tessen tends to react to coma'd-Zach by sticking him in a basement somewhere and shrugging his shoulders to the rest of the world.)
u/abnotwhmoanny [+1] (17 hours later)
Fair points. It's also interesting that in the one time we see RR use mind magic on Zach, he roots through his brain without triggering any of the loops protections against mind magic. That would imply that either his mind magic at that time wasn't very intrusive (and Zach's memory had been manipulated before this point), he had performed mind magic on Zach before and was accustomed to the triggers for the loop reset (and Zach's memory had been manipulated before this point), or the protections against mind magic aren't as stringent as I've been led to believe (which is still entirely possible for any number of reasons). I suppose RR might have also been coached on how to do this without triggering the protections, as an alternative, but that seems difficult and unlikely.
u/Angelbaka [+2] (18 hours later)
To me, a combination of 2 and 3 seems most likely: Zach takes RR into the Gate, Panaxath
alters his temp tag into a permanent taggives him a looper tag (unbeknownst to Zach || decieving Zach about the duration || ??), RR takes ## loops to not suck enough to brainfuck Zach (or is already that good, if not Veyers), RR begins brainfuck of Zach and spends the next ## of loops perfecting his technique while Zach is coma'd out, ## of loops pass, Zorain gets looper tag.This also helps explain RR's reaction to other unknown loopers: Panaxath got him in, so they'd either entered though Zach and his sponser (making them hostile to Panaxath) or they were also working for Panaxath, but at counterpoint to him, meaning their success could lead to RR's death -> best course of action is immediate destruction then immediately leaving the loop.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+1] (18 hours later)
He leaves the loop for fear of mind or soul mangling, but assuming he's working for Panaxeth at the time, which he seems to be (though it's technically possible that they only met upon his leaving, that's remarkably unlikely) he would know others working with Panaxeth can also leave. That means he's giving up further loop time to face an enemy with several years of extra time to prepare to face him. The only reason he'd do that (besides being an idiot) is if he believed these people weren't working with Panaxeth and therefore couldn't escape. Does that follow?
u/Angelbaka [+1] (18 hours later)
I don't actually think he would know they can leave - assuming he's operating under the assumption that others working against him still lived in the loop (having met Zorian, this is probable), he wouldn't neccessarily have known that the gate could be unbarred again - Z&Z didn't realize this until they'd extensively questioned the Gaurdian, who we now know was subvereted by Panaxath. RR could (and is heavily implied to have) believed that by being the first one out, everyone else would be permanently sealed in. Panaxath himself may have not known that until Z&Z's questioning; Zorian speculates that this is probably the first time the gate has been opened using Panaxath as the 'source', so he wouldn't have knowledgeof previous loops to draw on for such things and Panaxath certainly doesn't seem to be omnicient outside of the loop (and even then has very limited omniscience inside the loop, if any).
u/abnotwhmoanny [+1] (20 hours later)
If RR needs Panaxeth to get out, he has to see that he's leaving in a nonstandard fashion. Even if you aren't certain, you would at least ASK if he can let others out before placing yourself in such a dangerous situation wouldn't you? And there's no particular reason for Panaxeth to lie is there?
u/Angelbaka [+1] (22 hours later)
That's the thing, though, isn't it? He doesn't "need" Panaxath to get out (though getting a body out of it is helpful), he needed Panaxath to not prevent him (not murder him on the way out) from getting out and to make a situation where getting out is worthwhile (i.e., letting him loop in the first place). The actual leaving part seems to mostly be a function of the gate itself - a function neither RR nor Panaxath seemed to know was repeatable under any circumstances. (At best, Panaxath thought it incredibly unlikely that the Key could be recovered and assembled, if he knew it even existed at the time RR left.)
u/abnotwhmoanny [+1] (a day later)
I vaguely recall the primordial (I can never remember which letter is an a or an e. I'm just sticking with "it".) expressing surprise about them gathering the key. You might be right in him assuming they wouldn't be able to and thus being unable to leave. I'm fairly certain it knew the key existed though. It seems to know a fair deal more about the Sovereign Gate than Zorian and Zach. Though what exactly it knows and what exactly it's pretending to know is hard to parse at this point.
u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (4 hours later)
I'd suggest that retrieving lost memories should be Zorian's stated reason for getting into his mind, but once in, they should be able to talk telepathically without Panaxeth overhearing, which presents its own possibilities.
u/DismalWard77 [+9] (an hour later)
They've been needing to check inside Zach's mind a long time ago. Still Zach is his only best bet to getting out at all though its unsure whether Zach would be cooperative after Zorian looks into his mind if he can't undo whatever the angels and/or red robe did to him.
u/None [+8] (an hour later)
if I were Zorian? I'd take the deal and try to dump as much of my mind into the non-loop version of me, then die at the end of the month. It's the safest, least-dead form of death in that situation, imo.
u/sambelulek [+15] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (2 hours later)
Dead-bound deal is no longer offered. Current deal offered is to disable Zach from leaving, effectively killing him. [This comment] (https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/9id2fb/rt_hf_mother_of_learning_chapter_90_change_of/e6iuhf6/) explore the trapping of such deal.
u/ricree [+6] (2 hours later)
Barely any time before the loop ends and you die,
Is there a reason Zorian can't get a temporary marker like the others have used for the past couple resets? It doesn't get him through indefinitely, but it does give several months margin.
Assuming he's even at risk, since the controller could well have been compromised when it claimed it was going to reset Zorian at the end of the month. Not something to stake your existence on, granted, but a possibility all the same.
u/FriendlyAnnatar [+3] The Greater Good (3 hours later)
I was assuming that the Guardian was not compromised during that part because it does make sense that interactions between the Guardian and Controller would have built-in protections from the Maker, and the explanation about the Key triggering a full analysis was extremely logical.
But I agree that's not confirmed, and the Guardian was vague about how it was going to resolve the situation so its possible the temporary marker could tide Zorian over... Personally I would be surprised if that was permitted, something like specifically wiping the "anomaly" is my default assumption.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (3 hours later)
I would prioritise getting into Zach's mind. So long as Zorian doesn't attack, that's a win-win; no matter who gets out, they will benefit from knowing what Zach forgot. Just need to establish enough trust.
Maybe they could set up explosives so that if Zorian defects during the investigation, Zach can kill him with a mana pulse.
u/letouriste1 [+1] (18 hours later)
i would not take it. This is really suspicious, i think panaxeth want sow discord around zach and would probably not even hold his part of the deal once the controler got damaged...even if i weridly believe he would be fair in my guts, my logic say no.
u/Frommerman [+1] (20 hours later)
It's a Ra situation, though. The fact that Panaxeth is still trying means it knows it can still lose, as it wouldn't bother if it had already won. Therefore, Panaxeth believes Zach and Zorian can escape without its help and is trying to avert that losing situation.
u/The_Magus_199 [+1] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (a day later)
Honestly? I’d probably go Swords-style; try to make memory packets of myself and all the loopers, stick ‘em in Zach’s head, and have him get help from the Aranea on the other side to handle the invasion and distribute the packets/train other-me up enough to incorporate it. This is way bigger than any one person at this point, and considering there’s no guarantee Zach’s going to be able to gather the keys again without help, it’s not worth risking the chance to arm him to save the world.
u/Mountebank [+92] (an hour later)
Hmm, Panaxeth said that there's no point in isolating Zach because it doesn't care if he hears what it has to say to Zorian, but then it tell Zorian to betray Zach as its only price for getting out of the time loop. This doesn't add up, obviously, so sowing discord between the two is probably the goal. Zorian has been much more instrumental in stopping the invasion in the past than Zach, so maybe it is trying to get Zach to kill Zorian now, which implies that Zorian is actually closer to getting out on his own than he realizes and Panaxeth needs to stop that.
u/FriendlyAnnatar [+61] The Greater Good (an hour later)
It's a bit of a win-win, isn't it? Either Zorian takes him up on his offer (Panaxeth wins), they both distrust each other more (Panaxeth wins at least a little, more if they actually fight), and worst case they ignore it (no downside).
u/eroticas [+2] (2 days later)
It's a potential downside that neither of them will trust Panaxeth now as a result of its behavior
u/thrawnca [+6] Carbon-based biped (3 days later)
Um...are you saying that before this happened, they did trust the eldritch abomination?
This has always been negotiation over a barrel - "obliterated at loop end" vs "might get backstabbed and obliterated by primordial", people take the possibility of destruction over the certainty - not based on real trust.
u/thrawnca [+30] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)
I have a theory: Panaxeth realises that if ZZ keep working together, then Zorian can reversibly lock away Zach's memories, while leaving a compulsion to exit the loop after Zorian leaves. Then Zorian claims his ticket, meets Zach in the real world, and fixes him. Panaxeth can't actually read minds, so if Zorian made it look convincing, Panaxeth couldn't tell the difference. And once Zorian is out, Zach doesn't need Panaxeth's help any more.
So, it deliberately sowed distrust to ensure that Zorian can only enter Zach's mind by force and as an enemy.
u/trobertson [+13] (4 hours later)
This could potentially also allow for a tunnel out for everyone else.
Zorian makes a simulacrum.
Zorian "scrambles" Zach's mind.
Zorian gets out.
Zorian and simulacrum make a Gate (from inside to outside), everyone gets out.
Zach gets out the normal way.
u/thrawnca [+43] Carbon-based biped (5 hours later)
Nice idea, but no. Step 3.5 is, "All the remaining loop iterations take place in a fraction of a real-world millisecond, and the loop collapses before step 4."
u/trobertson [+3] (5 hours later)
Oh yeah, forgot about that.
u/CrystalineAxiom [+8] (a day later)
Also simulacrums get dispelled if they're on the other side of a time dilation field. That's why Zorian had to rely on Damien to create a gate after using the black room.
u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
Good point, but that part is actually less of a big deal. Simulacra isolated from the caster don't instantly vanish, they just lose their mana source and degrade over time until they break down completely. So that obstacle is not insurmountable.
u/Croktopus [+14] (10 hours later)
I'm pretty sure that the "Guardian" they were talking to when they just went in was Panaxeth manipulating them. Z&Z are some suckahs.
u/Seyt77 [+15] (14 hours later)
Tbh everything the guardian said since the very begining is suspect since Panaxeth has been able to possess it. Only thing I would trust is the markers they have on themselves as that would be farfetched to think Panaxeth has been manipulating that information as well.
u/Croktopus [+7] (17 hours later)
yeah i think that distrusting all perception in the sovereign gate is going a bit far - i think its more likely that panaxeth is just able to manipulate his own appearance
that being said, it is definitely plausible that there was never a guardian (other than panaxeth). it taking over the guardian without the need for them to unbar the gate is fairly strong evidence. could be that zach and zorian have always been able to leave, but just didnt know how, and were trusting the guardian to be honest.
u/Seyt77 [+5] (18 hours later)
It's entirely possible the person that Zach trusted and was betrayed by wasn't rr initially but the guardian. Panaxeth could be tricked Zach by imitating as the guardian and had Zach spell his own doom by saying he needed specific things to work or get out. Kinda farfetch but possible
u/WilyCoyotee [+39] (an hour later)
Zorian needs to get into zach's head, yesterday.
u/ricree [+9] (2 hours later)
Yes. It's a definite point of suspicion, and one they can no longer afford to ignore.
I think there is a distinct possibility that Zach knocked Silver lake out of the loop personally.
u/WilyCoyotee [+2] (3 hours later)
I dunno, seems like taking the primordial up on his offer would be something silverlake would do. Then again there is the loop blacklist, so it's not like zach COULDN'T do it, but we really don't know his motivations right now.
u/Silver_Swift [+7] (a day later)
The problem is that Zach wasn't too keen on that idea before (possibly due to some kind of compulsion placed on him) and will certainly not be more willing to allow it now.
Which, come to think of it, might very well be the whole point of Panaxeths offer.
u/Yes_This_Is_God [+61] (13 minutes later)
Wow.
They're definitely in the end-game now. The presentation of this problem was really well done. Can't wait for the next few chapters.
u/Watchful1 [+84] (an hour later)
My prediction, when they went back in the gate, it was Panaxeth talking to them the whole time, he just pretended he needed to do the whole body thing to confuse them. Nothing has changed about Zorian's marker, it was just Panaxeth saying that to force him into making a premature choice.
He's going to side with Zach, they are going to try to tunnel out at the end of the loop and fail, but Zorian wakes up again in the next loop.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+40] (2 hours later)
That would be a fun twist. I honestly never considered the possibility that Panaxeth is pretending to be the guardian at the end. It's certainly within it's shown capabilities, and makes sense as a way to help convince Zorian.
u/earzo7 [+28] (3 hours later)
Honestly, the Guardian seemed a bit different from his other appearance, didn't he? He was more eloquent than he should have been capable of being.
u/Watchful1 [+42] (3 hours later)
Yeah, the line that really stood out to me was "Of course a thorough check of everything is in order". The guardian has never tried to justify anything like that before.
u/Arno_Nymus [+22] (9 hours later)
I noticed that too, but I thought that the previous version of the guardian was simply broken. Like if your computer has a virus and you start it in safe mode all its capabilities are limited, but if you install your OS freshly again and thus remove the virus the computer works as it is supposed to.
u/matex_xizor [+1] (6 days later)
Now I feel really bad about not considering that possibility while reading. I knew something was off, both the fact that he was there again after disappearing previously and his way of speaking.
That would also mean that Zach probably got some admin powers after all.
u/Croktopus [+2] (10 hours later)
i honestly kind of feel like this was too well telegraphed :\ my first thought when they went back in was "wait do they actually believe that this isnt panaxeth?"
u/addmoreice [+2] (19 hours later)
I definitely agree as well.
The fact that when they return from the conversation *the Guardian isn't there* hints at this as well. My guess? Panaxy-boy fundamentally broke the guardian in order to pull off his conversation. The guardian not being there when the conversation was over highly suggests *something* is wrong there. When they came back, it doesn't seem to match up exactly to its previous behaviors.
I'm betting it's just Panaxeth from there out pretending to be the Guardian and now is trying for a quick scam to cause discord between Z&Z. No loss if it fails, but even a disagreement which offers no harm between the two results in reduced effectiveness in the long run. The fact that a real disagreement between the two could result in mind wipes or soul destruction or just complete disillusionment of their work against Panaxeth...it's a cheap and worthwhile scam even if it fails. Better, it also removes a source of information, the Guardian, from the board *and* even if it fails, it still offers a possible source of disinformation in the future. win win win!
u/valeskas [+24] (an hour later)
I feel that somebody should have asked what was the disagreement between the gods and primordials exactly. I mean Panaxeth says that he is not actively malicious, he could elaborate a bit.
u/SpeculativeFiction [+30] (2 hours later)
From chapter 20:
According to Ikosians, the world was originally a swirling, shapeless chaos, inhabited only by the 7 primordial dragons. One day, the gods descended from the higher planes of existence and killed all of them save one. This last one they refashioned into the material world that humans now inhabit, turning her body into dirt and stone, her blood into water, her breath into air and her fire into magic. The vast networks of tunnels stretching beneath the surface of the world are dragon veins, now empty of blood that had been turned into the seas but still flooded with magic emanating from the Heart of the World – the fiery, still-beating heart of the primordial dragon that rests somewhere deep underground. Far from being content with her fate, the Dragon Below still rages against her bounds, giving birth to natural disasters like volcanoes and earthquakes. Unable to strike back against the gods themselves, the dragon takes her anger out on their favored creations – humans – by utilizing her heart, the one thing the gods have not seen fit to take away from her. Pieces of it continually flake off from the main mass, giving birth to horrifying monsters whenever they hit the ground, at which point said monsters begin their ascent to the surface to terrorize mankind…
I'm fairly certain the primordials are another creation of the dragon below, and they mainly want to get revenge on the gods (by killing their creations.)
u/RMcD94 [+5] (3 hours later)
Dick move by the gods there
Seems unjustified to work against primordial if this is the case. Unless you're allowed to torture one person to save 10 which Zorian refuses to do
u/SpeculativeFiction [+20] (3 hours later)
The gods' creations include humans. Given that the primordials likely want to wipe the world clean of most living beings, working against them makes sense.
That said, the gods do seem like they were fairly dickish.
u/RMcD94 [+5] (8 hours later)
Yeah primordials want to kill the people who torture the world dragon for sustenance. Seems fair to me. The world dragon should be freed.
u/LordSwedish [+8] Q Continuum (a day later)
Most people wouldn’t take the moral high ground over the survival of their species but I’m glad that someone here has the moral backbone to wipe out all life on the planet...something about that seems wrong but I can’t put my finger on what.
u/RMcD94 [+4] (a day later)
If we're being utilitarian then we can mind rape people in the loop.
Inconsistency bothers me
u/zolnir [+2] (5 hours later)
You're calling them dickish without knowing their motives?
u/SpeculativeFiction [+14] (6 hours later)
Human civilization only really developed after the gods left, because they smote people and handed out blessings on a whim. Quatach Ichll of all people got a blessing from them.
I tend to think Zorian's portrayal of the gods as jerks is pretty accurate, and I think the primordials are likely worse.
u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+14] (14 hours later)
What's wrong with QI getting a blessing? He's actually a great guy and decent human being. Most of his "faults" stem from the fact that his country is at war with the MC's country, so he looks like a monster that's willing to slaughter countless innocents unprovoked. But you have to remember that he is positively ancient. He was probably around when the Ikosians attacked his countrymen and forced them to flee into the wilderness to survive. In his mind, the Ikosians struck first, and QI is just retaliating for the sake of his country.
u/addmoreice [+10] (19 hours later)
He has been known to enslave and murder entire villages in order to create fear in others. This kind of shit works in war, no doubt about it, but let's not pretend this leads to positive social outcomes or is moral in any sense.
Men that wage war without conscious or care may save their countries, but they should never govern them. Understanding someones motive does not mean it's acceptable or right.
u/The_Magus_199 [+6] Ankh-Morpork City Watch (a day later)
I mean I’d disagree about him being a great guy now, but I do get the impression that he’s not really bad by the standards of his time - it’s just that morality marches on and he never got the hang of expanding his empathy to reach people who aren’t in his in-group.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (3 days later)
He's actually a great guy and decent human being.
I'm not sure he actually counts as a human being any more. He has no trace of a human body or brain. And we know that souls change over time, so he'd be rather diverged by now.
u/pleasedothenerdful [+1] (2 days later)
Kind of like how the body of Panaxeth has been coopted into the world of the Gate, huh? Interesting.
That said, the primordials seem most like the immune system of the Dragon Below's body, which had to be suppressed and imprisoned in order for the "infection" of humanity to survive and prosper.
u/DismalWard77 [+1] (2 hours later)
Probably Alanic was told.
u/GodKiller999 [+23] (3 hours later)
What I never understood is why Zorian can't just go through the mind of a simulacrum of Zach, it'd fix the issue without the real Zach having to take unnecessary risks.
u/sicutumbo [+20] (4 hours later)
I thought of the same thing, and mentioned doing so in one of my comments. I guess it's a privacy thing? Zach, not being a psychic, would have virtually no control or possibly even awareness of what Zorian was doing inside his head if his mental barriers are down. Having it be done on a simulacrum makes compulsions and stuff impossible, but that's still a huge level of trust to show someone. How many people would you allow to look through your memories and thoughts without restriction? Zach trusts Zorian, but he also knows that Zorian has done worse things to people than Zach is even capable of in order to train his abilities. Can Zach really guarantee that Zorian would never take advantage of the information he gets from Zach's head?
Zorian also isn't able to respond in kind to that level of trust. He can share memories easily enough, but Zorian would be able to shield memories he wants to keep hidden even if his outer shields are broken.
u/GodKiller999 [+14] (6 hours later)
Considering Zorian is trusting Zach with his continued existence, I think this would be fair, especially since they really need to know if there's stuff in there that could help them escape.
u/Nimelennar [+14] (12 hours later)
You also can't compel a simulacrum to do anything you're unwilling to do yourself.
u/Gr_Cheese [+4] (16 hours later)
... Yeah, but they could overpower it. And the implication that they could overpower it would probably be enough to encourage compliance. All Zach has to do is drain his shared mana pool enough to avoid problems, pop out a simulacrum, retreat, and let Zorian do his work.
u/Nimelennar [+3] (18 hours later)
I can't imagine even an overmatched and outgunned Zach submitting to mind magic. He'd probably put up a Mind Blank and self-immolate first. Or trigger a reset. Or find a way to escape.
And it would take a lot of draining in order to get Zach down to a level where he could be overpowered easily by Zorian alone, with a Mind Blank up.
u/Gr_Cheese [+2] (18 hours later)
Simulacrums share a mana pool with the main body.
Main Zach can be complicit, drain his own mana, and sacrifice his simulacrum. Without mana, what's the simulacrum going to do? Bite its tongue? They don't bleed. They don't carry over functional items. It could literally be created inside a trap that prevents anything but compliance.
u/addmoreice [+6] (19 hours later)
we all ready know simulacrums can instantly self cancel, Zorians simulacrums do it more than once inside the story. It's talked about sort of like the simulacrum grabs a soul zipper and yanks, no real effort required, pop! gone.
Still, your idea has merit.
u/CrystalineAxiom [+3] (a day later)
Simulacrums have a 30 second window after creation during which they are effectively incapacitated. That should be plenty of time for Zorian to further incapacitate it with mind magic.
u/addmoreice [+2] (a day later)
Oh yeah! A good point.
Yeah, he should definitely do this.
u/Nimelennar [+4] (19 hours later)
Would it need mana to look inside its own soul and hit the "restart loop" switch? I can't imagine it'd need much, and Zach's mana recharges at a speed proportional to his Magnitude (which is ridiculously high).
It also takes a certain amount of mana to create a simulacrum. So, Zach would have to either calculate exactly how much mana he'd need to use in order to perform the creation, so that he'd have exactly zero left when the simulacrum was made, or drain whatever was left so quickly that the simulacrum couldn't perform even the simplest tasks (like self-destruction or Mind Blank or a loop reset).
u/Gr_Cheese [+2] (22 hours later)
Zach's soul marker is broken in such a way that he cannot restart the loop at will. That feature is exclusively Zorian.u/addmoreice brought up a good point, that simulacrums can self-cancel, as demonstrated by Zorian. But, again, a simulacrum could be created directly inside a trap / ward that prohibits all the counter-measures you've listed. For example, instantly rendering the simulacrum unconscious. Or slowing time.
The only potential counterargument I see is being unable to read the simulacrum's mind, for whatever reason.
u/thrawnca [+6] Carbon-based biped (22 hours later)
Zach's soul marker is broken in such a way that he cannot restart the loop at will.
Says who? Every in-story indication has been that Zach's marker is perfectly intact. He simply lacked the necessary skill at personal soul perception.
Since he's now capable of creating simulacra and wears the soul sight ring, he's almost certainly advanced enough to use those marker switches.
u/Gr_Cheese [+1] (23 hours later)
You're right. I just went though chapters 52 - 90, and there is nothing explicitly stating that Zach's marker is damaged. I guess I assumed that Quatach-Ichl's attempt to merge Zach's and Zorian's souls together would have damaged Zach's marker.
That said, I have two points:
It was never explicitly stated that Zach gained access to his soul marker's switches, and he never ended a restart at-will (even when Quatach-Ichl was soul-bombing them, Zorian ended that restart.)
Trapping a simulacrum is theoretically possible.
u/CrystalineAxiom [+2] (a day later)
I guess I assumed that Quatach-Ichl's attempt to merge Zach's and Zorian's souls together would have damaged Zach's marker.
Alanic states early on when he analyses the marker that it is multiply redundant and self repairing. That's how Zorian got his version. A piece of Zach's marker was placed on Zorian, and it self repaired until it suffused his entire soul.
u/Nimelennar [+1] (a day later)
A ward that allows the creation of a simulacrum but not the self-dismissal of one? That allows the use of one of the most complex feats of soul magic (creating a simulacrum) but not the simplest (examining your own soul)? That allows one person to forcefully use mind magic and not the other to resist it? That would have to be a heck of a ward.
As for rendering the simulacrum unconscious: the mental state upon creation is necessarily the same of that of the caster (as it's a copy). The sleep effect would have to take effect absolutely instantaneously, or it wouldn't work. We've seen Zorian resist similar effects himself.
I'm not saying that it's impossible; there is just absolutely zero room for error, because if you screw up... wait, let me find the quote... "People have been killed by their own simulacrums in the past." ... "it's a bad idea to foist things you hate upon your simulacrums."
u/CrystalineAxiom [+2] (a day later)
As for rendering the simulacrum unconscious: the mental state upon creation is necessarily the same of that of the caster (as it's a copy).
No. When Zorian makes a simulacrum during the mid loop invasion of the Ibasian base, it is dazed for about 30 seconds. That's a pretty big window for mind magic.
u/Nimelennar [+1] (2 days later)
Confusion and disorientation isn't the the same as being dazed, especially when I used to be there and am now here, looking at the copy I just made of myself from a different angle than I was a minute a... oh, hey, I'm the copy, aren't I?
It's entirely possible that coming under attack, especially when expecting that attack to occur (just not to you), could snap someone out of it sooner.
u/sicutumbo [+1] (16 hours later)
Alternatively, he could make a simulacrum without a mouth or hands, so it couldn't cast any magic to defend itself.
u/Nimelennar [+1] (18 hours later)
Zach has a bunch of spells that he can cast reflexively. He doesn't necessarily need a mouth or hands to defend himself.
u/CrystalineAxiom [+1] (a day later)
Zach wouldn't do that because it would mean making himself vulnerable to Zorian without mana to defend himself. Also it would probably force the simulacrum to dispel. If they were going to do this the smart thing would be for Zorian to knock Zach's simulacrum unconscious while it's still dazed from being created. Remember, it takes simulacrums around 30 seconds to wake up.
u/None [+21] (38 minutes later)
I don't think it makes sense for Zach to have destroyed the body. He wasn't aware of the offer the primordial made at the time right? He didn't discuss their experiences until after the bodies destruction. So why would he be so enraged that he would destroy the body? For all he knew silverlake could have been the only one to be atttacked succesfully by the primordial.
u/vallar57 [+21] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (48 minutes later)
He wasn't aware of the offer the primordial made at the time right?
No, they discussed some after being released. Just not in details like in Noveda mansion, but enough for Zorian to say that Silverlake has likely betrayed them.
u/None [+10] (50 minutes later)
Ah that make sense.
u/ricree [+19] (2 hours later)
I still don't totally trust Zach. The fact claim that his mind has been altered and the refusal to get it checked mean that he's at best potentially compromised, if not actively deceiving Zorian.
One possibility is that Silver lake did not take the deal, but was soul-killed by Zach when she was vulnerable. He then burned the body in a "fit of rage" to avoid any potential discrepancies.
u/mp3max [+7] (4 hours later)
was soul-killed by Zach when she was vulnerable
But when? She was already missing when they all reunited inside the gate.
u/agdzietam [+4] (17 hours later)
Soulkill is a mechanism of the loop, it's possible it works inside the gate. I think it's an interesting theory, and we did have some foreshadowing on rogue Zach, didn't we?
u/kaukamieli [+3] (7 hours later)
I wouldn't even care. Clearly the primordial wants him out, so if one cares more for humanity than itself, messing with Zach is not a thing you should do. It would be just as bad as accepting the other deal.
u/ricree [+1] (a day later)
That isn't totally clear. If the primordial believes Zorian would not take the offer, then it could be a way of building rapport between him and Zach, assuming that Zach is compromised in the primordial's favor.
u/Silver_Swift [+2] (a day later)
The offer also gives Zach a reason to continue to refuse to give Zorian access to his mind, which would be very helpful if he was working for Panaxeth.
That said, I think the simplest explanation is still that the Primordial is just trying to sow discord between the only person it believes can reasonably threaten its plans (Zach) and his allies.
u/sambelulek [+9] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (53 minutes later)
Body count happened inside the Guardian space (previous chapter), and there's murmur before they all decided to get out for the moment. It's easy to get the general idea at that little time.
u/CeruleanTresses [+5] (2 hours later)
Is it possible that he was intentionally destroying some kind of important evidence and disguising it as a tantrum?
u/sicutumbo [+19] (49 minutes later)
It seems odd that Panaxeth is able to recall Zorian's various friends and family, but not that he is a powerful mind mage in the previous chapter. I don't think Panaxeth actually has perfect recall, because he doesn't even address their plan to physically walk out of the loop.
In regards to the actual offer and Zorian's suspicion, I think it's a solvable problem. Zorian himself doesn't need to be the one to look into Zach's head, just a decent telepath. Zorian should tell Zach to get some of the Aranea to look into Zach's head, while Zorian stays at a tea shop or something under supervision of one of Zach's simulacrum. Since no one else would know about the offer to Zorian without Zorian communicating with them, Zach could simply ensure Zorian can't communicate and then have himself checked out.
Alternatively, assuming simulacra would inherit any compulsions the original is under, Zach could just make a simulacrum and have Zorian check it out for compulsions. Zorian couldn't do any damage, because the simulacrum could be immediately dismissed after Zorian checks it. Zorian is satisfied, and Zach doesn't need to endanger himself even if Zorian is hostile.
u/vallar57 [+25] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (53 minutes later)
because he doesn't even address their plan to physically walk out of the loop.
Just as likely because the plan is nigh impossible. They are inside a primordial, meaning they are inside it's prison too, and the prison is divine and capable of stopping even a promordial from breaking out.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+11] (an hour later)
Yes, but the Sovereign Gate clearly has an out for people. While details weren't forthcoming, I don't think Zorian was just talking out of his ass when he said he believed that had a 30% chance of getting it to work that month. The prison was made to stop Panaxeth, but despite being a superbeing there are most likely many things humans can do that he can't. Ever see an old bear cage? The bars were often narrow enough that a bear can't possibly hope to get out, but a person can easily slip through.
u/Fredlage [+9] (an hour later)
And yet they have this convenient group of people regularly breaking said prison at the end of every loop, so it's not hopeless.
u/vallar57 [+11] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (an hour later)
They are technically breaking it from the outside.
u/kaukamieli [+1] (10 hours later)
They might be, in a month, in one potential future. :D ZZ Could technically have figured out all the guys and just killed them before they can try. They are definitely doing it from the inside, and that's why it's not working.
u/sicutumbo [+3] (an hour later)
I don't think they're actually passing through the prison interior. Panaxeth would simply kill them if that were so. I think they're using the fact that Panaxeth's prison connects both to the real world and to the time looped world to make a bridge, without ever going into the prison itself.
u/FishyBinder [+1] (an hour later)
The primordial can put other people out side the loop even if it can't exit so obviously it is much easier for other people to get free.
u/vallar57 [+3] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (an hour later)
He uses a subverted time loop mechanism to do that. Z&Z won't have such assistance when physically breaking out.
u/sicutumbo [+5] (an hour later)
I don't think it does. The Gate can place souls back in the real world, and if the gate isn't barred then it can put souls of people other than the controller outside, but putting physical bodies back into the real world has never been part of the Gate's power. Maybe Panaxeth can make the body and then transport the soouls with the Gate, but Panaxeth must have some ability to influence the real world. I guess it's just never worth doing so unless he can have a soul to help free him by piloting the body he makes.
u/vallar57 [+2] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (an hour later)
but putting physical bodies back into the real world has never been part of the Gate's power.
... that we know of. Nobody asked, iirc Z&Z missed this possibility and didn't ask the Guardian about it the first time they got there.
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (22 hours later)
The Guardian would have likely answered that it had the power to do it, but would refuse because a core part of its mission is to prevent leakage from the loop back into the real world.
u/vallar57 [+1] Unseen University: Faculty of High-Energy Magic (23 hours later)
My thoughts exactly.
u/FishyBinder [+1] (2 days later)
Rats are arguably much weaker than human beings, but prisons that can easily hold human being will let rats easy scamper through the bars. There is a lot of details about the prison we don't know so I don't think you can just assume that because the primordial can't get out it is the same way for the humans because the prison was designed to hold the primordial not humans.
u/FriendlyAnnatar [+16] The Greater Good (an hour later)
Zorian should tell Zach to get some of the Aranea to look into Zach's head, while Zorian stays at a tea shop or something under supervision of one of Zach's simulacrum.
Zorian has previously asked Zach to have a trusted third party check his mind for compulsions, the result being Zach instead got mind defense lessons from Xvim instead. I don't think anything has happened that would change Zach's prior decision (they knew back then that there was a chance he had compulsions and had his mind edited, it wasn't enough to sway him).
u/MagicwaffIez [+8] (3 hours later)
I think he is probably under a compulsion to not let people try to fix it, it's easy to get out of geas' with mind magic nowadays, so that would be the best method to keep him from getting them removed.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+10] (an hour later)
I'm relatively certain that Panaxeth isn't half as capable as he leads others to believe. I like that he uses the exact example of viewing ants that Zorian and company had just used.
Also, using simulacrum certainly removes the real Zach from danger, but that would hardly make the simulacrum agree. If Zach would never agree to it, you can assume the same is true of the simulacrum. And there's no way you could force a simulacrum into that situation without hiding it from Zach himself, and he would likely take that just as violently as if you'd tried it on him.
u/icesharkk [+3] (3 days later)
that not exactly accurate. What i would never agree to do changes wildly when you tell me I am a purpose built copy of myself. yes I feel as though I am the real me but ultimately I am just a copy with a lifespan.
This would not affect the potential compulsion on zachs mind. I just feel that people keep talking about the simulacrum paradox as if the simulacrum can't update its behavior after it's created.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+1] (4 days later)
That's fair, though that will largely depend on the person and the situation. Some people wouldn't change their behavior even if they were told they weren't "real people". And while some people would be willing to die, with their shortened lifespans, they likely wouldn't be willing to do things they found abhorrent.
I'm not saying there are things Zach wouldn't do that his Simulacrum would, but things that Zach would NEVER agree to? Yeah, they won't do it.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (4 hours later)
At this point, if Zach doesn't trust Zorian inside his head, then he shouldn't trust Zorian inside his simulacrum's head either - because with a deep memory dive like that, Zorian could completely subvert the simulacrum, have it turn on Zach, and thus subdue him like Panaxeth wants.
u/Travisbuchanan [+16] (an hour later)
Side thought: As long as they're inside the time loop, it may get increasingly more dangerous for Zorian to summon simulacrum. There's always a slight difference in their mental models, no matter how in control Zorian is; as the pressure on him increases and the deadline for the end of the loop draws to a close, it's possible one of them will choose to defect.
I'm interested in the dilemma presented, but I hope neither betrays the other. That feels a little narratively forced. I want to say they should ally with Quatach-Ichl in response to this, but since the lich is explicitly working against them on this particular goal, that's unlikely. Unless QI is missing some critical piece of information about Paxaneth that would change his mind.
u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+20] (2 hours later)
QI is missing several critical pieces of information, such as the Cult of the Dragon Below attempting to mind control Paxaneth, or the fact that Paxaneth is a shapeshifter that can easily fly over to QI's country and wreck it too.
And unlike Silverlake, QI actually cares about people other than himself, such as his countrymen. He wouldn't prioritize his own personal survival over the survival of his country, so he would be unlikely to backstab Z&Z in the same way. The only problem is somehow convincing QI that they are telling him the truth.
u/thrawnca [+8] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)
If they tell QI what the cult is really planning, then he'll thank them for the information and use it to ensure that his original plan works - ie releasing the primordial to rampage.
u/None [+4] (7 hours later)
He wouldn't prioritize his own personal survival over the survival of his country
Is there anything in the books to support this?
u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+16] (14 hours later)
The fact that he suicide soul-bombed Z&Z is concrete evidence that he cares about some things more than his personal survival. Even if he knew about the time loop from mind reading Xvim, the fact that he killed himself rather than even try to get a temporary marker on himself (he does have the crown after all) shows that he is willing to prioritize some things over his own life. The only question is what did he prioritize over his life.
It was never stated (because he died), but I suspect he succeeded in learning about the time loop from Xvim's mind, and then suicide bombed the group of time loopers to try and stop them from messing up the Cyorian invasion plan in the real world. That shows he prioritizes his country over himself.
u/turtleswamp [+9] (18 hours later)
Not necessarily.
It could be that he views a copy of himself that will get reset in less than a month as the same kind of short-term expendable copy of his 'real self' (the immortal one outside the loop) that Zorian considers his simulacrums.
In that case it's not "sacrifice himself for his country" it's "sacrifice temporary copy of himself for his immortal real self". Though it is still notable that he goes from thinking he is the 'real self' to believing he is the 'expendable copy' with enough conviction to pull the trigger in so short a time.
u/Tserri [+16] (an hour later)
Quatach-Ichl doesn't want to permanently release Panaxeth. I really think they should team up with him too, especially in the real world. After all they'll have to deal with Silverlake, who is a very good soul mage.
The problem would be to find a good enough deal for QI to not attack Cyora back in the real world. Maybe Zorian could use his skills as a mind mage to access to his demands.
u/xachariah [+3] (6 hours later)
Z&Z have the location of the remaining 4 artifacts of the first emperor, and exactly how to get them. And they can give them up to the real QI in the real world.
It would be worth it on QI's side to call off the invasion for even a single artifact. It would be worth it on Z&Zs side to trade them away in the real world, since they're not of fundamental importance once you're outside the loop.
u/addmoreice [+6] (19 hours later)
> It would be worth it on Z&Zs side to trade them away in the real world, since they're not of fundamental importance once you're outside the loop.
Immortality exists.
It is difficult, but possible to gain immortality within a single lifetime.
The time loop offers a one of a kind chance to gather *massive* amounts of power, one could almost say god like power, given enough times through and effort.
the time loop is usable multiple times.
the keys and the gate are *literally* the key to god like power.
QED the gate and keys are literally priceless.
u/xachariah [+1] (a day later)
Godlike power is great, but it's not as good as "not dying" or "not dying, and also not having everyone you know get murdered by a god being unleashed."
Inside the time loop though, the artifacts are worth more than 'not dying' since the price of dying is lower and the value of the artifacts are higher.
u/addmoreice [+1] (a day later)
> Godlike power is great, but it's not as good as "not dying" or "not dying, and also not having everyone you know get murdered by a god being unleashed."
of course, if it's absolutely necessary, handing out the artifacts outside of the loop makes sense. But let's not pretend that they have zero value in the real world. Planning for the future should be an obvious goal.
> Inside the time loop though, the artifacts are worth more than 'not dying' since the price of dying is lower and the value of the artifacts are higher.
For zorian? yes, dying would be a tragedy, and even for zack from zorians point of view (since if this is his last loop, then zack's death means his death as well). But the artifacts inside the loop mean little unless they need them on that particular loop (ie, the loop before this one they had little need for them, but in *this* loop they are absolutely vital!). they actually have high value inside the loop only because they didn't start with them. If instead they start with them, then they are absolutely vital! hence why gathering them outside the loop later is so very important. Get them, stash them away, gain immortality, then wait and use them to gather even more power. Right now that's not that vital for sure, but once they are out and things are settled in whatever way? then it should be *very* important. Literal god like power! Imagine if they had started the loop with the artifacts!
u/HPMOR_fan [+1] (an hour later)
I had the same thought about QI. They just need to trick QI to help. Don't tell him about Pax or the invasion. Just say they discovered they are trapped in this dimension and need QI's help to get out.
u/DismalWard77 [+6] (an hour later)
Didn't they just steal QI's crown? Kind hard to ask him for help after backstabbing him
u/HPMOR_fan [+1] (2 hours later)
As soon as QI confronts them they give him back the crown and explain. QI won't 'help' them, but he would want to escape. So they could work together.
u/Seyt77 [+6] (2 hours later)
Maybe in another loop but this loop would be irrational for qi to trust anything they say or even help out after they screwed him over.
u/HPMOR_fan [+3] (3 hours later)
QI wouldn't have to trust them blindly. There is a lot of evidence of the loop and he could even investigate the prison boundary like Silverlake did.
Edit. I forgot Silverlake has already investigated the prison before the time loop. Unless QI had done that then he couldn't compare.
u/DismalWard77 [+1] (an hour later)
They had just stolen QI's crown in this loop didn't they?
u/CrystalineAxiom [+1] (a day later)
it's possible one of them will choose to defect.
Simulacrums can't defect without souls... that's what Panaxeth is taking out of the time loop.
u/dabmg10 [+29] (50 minutes later)
Crackpot Theory: Didn't Vyers have problem with his temper so that last line seems really suspect. Zach isn't actually Zachary but Vyers who thinks he is Zack.
u/FriendlyAnnatar [+37] The Greater Good (an hour later)
Veyers was abnormally volatile after his ritual unlocking, whereas Zach has always been emotional and is very justifiably stressed out. Throughout the story he's actually not demonstrated much of a temper, so if anything I'm more inclined to think he's not Veyers.
Obviously I'm not ruling out Veyers having done something to Zach before the story's start, but that's weak evidence.
u/the_terran [+20] (15 hours later)
If we are doing crackpot theories, here's mine: "Original" universe is also a primordial that has the copy of a more original universe inside it. That's what caused the silence of the Gods.
u/memzak [+4] Imperial Commonwealth of Endeavour (5 days later)
I thought this was a fairly common non-crackpot theory... does that mean I'm a crackpot now? :O
u/Jon_Freebird [+5] (an hour later)
I kinda really like that one actually.
u/kaukamieli [+3] (a day later)
Zorian knows what they both look like. Also Zach starts from the correct place afaik.
Very crackpot, such nope.
u/InfernoVulpix [+21] (36 minutes later)
It's possible that Zach could use the crown to give Zorian another six loops for them to improve their escape plan, but if I was Zorian I wouldn't want to pin my hopes on that.
Doylist assumption 1: the protagonist will survive. Doylist assumption 2 (weaker): it wouldn't fit for Zorian and Zach to turn on each other at this point, not when other antagonists are readily available out of the loop. Doylist conclusion: Zorian will survive but will not take Panaxeth's offer and turn on Zach. The most likely way for that to happen is for their escape attempt to succeed.
If the escape attempt succeeds, then all of our temporary loopers get out too (by now they're no worse off than Zorian), and we get to go full-throttle Red Robes + Silverlake + Ulquaan Ibasa vs. Zorian, Zach, the Cyoria crew and allies, and potentially their IRL duplicates as well. Having two Xvims will certainly be helpful, among others, and something tells me IRL!Silverlake won't have any fondness for the antics of Loop!Silverlake.
Things are shifting into high gear, it looks like all the waiting is over. Time to see where this story goes!
u/sambelulek [+11] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (an hour later)
It is neither possible nor impossible to give Zorian temp marker. It is unknown.
I'm not prepared to comment on Doylist assumption thingy. Is it derived from Arthur C. Doyle name? Can I assume it ponder on how the story will possibly go if the book success is priority? I agree Zorian have to survive, regardless method or cost. Erasing him will guarantee flunk.
u/InfernoVulpix [+19] (an hour later)
Watsonian and Doylist are two terms I like to use for making predictions based on in-universe info or out-of-universe info. Here I'm talking about out-of-universe stuff like story structure and narrative to justify my speculation rather than anything in-universe, so my predictions are Doylist.
And when I say that it's possible the crown could be used that way, I mean that it's unknown whether it would, but it sounds possible given what we currently know.
u/None [+11] (an hour later)
Doylist just means "looking at the story from the perspective of the author," as opposed to Watsonian, which is "looking at the story from the perspective of a character." Doylist perspective assumes things like narrative convention, the existence of tropes, and the bias of the author. Watsonian ignores those things and assumes the events of the story happen as they would in the real world, with nothing like plot armor existing.
u/HPMOR_fan [+4] (an hour later)
My guess is they tell QI about the loop and get his help to tunnel out. Of course they leave out all the details that would make QI not want to help them.
But something has to happen regarding Zach's mind too.
u/DismalWard77 [+3] (an hour later)
They just stole QI's crown didn't they? why would he want to help some thieves?
u/HPMOR_fan [+3] (2 hours later)
As soon as QI confronts them they give him back the crown and explain. QI won't 'help' them, but he would want to escape. So they would work together.
u/ricree [+13] (2 hours later)
All else being equal, it would be in QI's best interest not to help. One month is a miniscule amount of experience for a being centuries old, while the Z&Z are a moderate threat to his current ambitions.
Unless he is absolutely dead set on preserving those few weeks, he gains much more from a collapsed loop than an escaped one.
u/sicutumbo [+4] (2 hours later)
If he gets to walk out with everyone else, aside from the danger of having his phylactery exposed, he would have the benefit of having two of himself instead of just one. One QI is an incredible force to be reckoned with, two would be nearly unstoppable for a small group. Especially since he would then have two Crowns, and each would be able to manipulate the other's mana. It's an incredibly potent combination.
I think you're right that QI wouldn't go for it, but only because the potential for betrayal is too high and too dangerous when his phylactery is exposed.
u/thrawnca [+6] Carbon-based biped (4 hours later)
For a lich, having two copies of yourself isn't necessarily a benefit. He can get away with using simulacra, but if there were two fully-souled copies of him running around, they'd likely clash. And for the first time, he'd face an opponent at his own level of skill and knowing where his phylactery is and how it's protected.
Moreover, unless he brought his phylactery with him, leaving the loop would probably be fatal.
u/RockLeethal [+5] (6 hours later)
Consider the fact that another near immortal being (silverlake) wasnt comfortable even having simulacrums, I doubt QI would be comfortable having 2 of himself.
u/tjhance [+13] (15 hours later)
But we saw him commit suicide in order to help the real world QI succeed. I think this shows that he at least thinks about these things differently than silverlake, that is, he actually cares about his other selves. It might be less of a problem for him.
u/RockLeethal [+1] (15 hours later)
That's a fair point, but I think that's moreso due to the worlds being separate thus he considers real world QI as the same as himself, whereas in a situation where both are absolutely separate (because hes been incarnated into the real world) then he would be at least a little distrustful.
But it's entirely possible he could simply work together with the 'real' one with no issue as a rare peer on the same level. It really could go either way (though I cant imagine zorian and the rest recruiting him except as an absolute last resort, since giving him that knowledge and having 2 of him to deal with makes him even more dangerous to them).
u/turtleswamp [+6] (19 hours later)
Being immortal isn't what makes Silverlake distrust simulacrums. She distrusts them because she's a selfish loaner willing to backstab anyone to get what she wants, so her simulacrums are going to inevitably backstab her to try and outlive the spell duration.
QI isn't particularly selfish and has been collaborating with a large and divers set of people as a major figure is a very large scale project. It's likely that two QI's will see each otehr as powerful allies after a brief check to make sure they aren't backing opposite sides for some reason, and with a bit of effort to re-secure their phylacteries against each other.
u/HPMOR_fan [+1] (3 hours later)
If he understood the true situation, yes. It's up to Z&Z to spin a story that would make him want to escape.
Edit. Actually, there are reasons QI might want to escape even knowing the truth. There would be 2 QIs in the real world, and he could betray and kill the others as soon as he's through.
u/rtsynk [+2] (5 hours later)
It's possible that Zach could use the crown to give Zorian another six loops for them to improve their escape plan, but if I was Zorian I wouldn't want to pin my hopes on that
I don't think that's necessary because
they're going to try to bust out this loop
Pan said he stopped the guardian from messing with Zorian
Maybe Pan was lying, but I don't think so. He wants Zorian to stop Zach and isn't willing to give up on that possibility just yet
u/abnotwhmoanny [+1] (an hour later)
They went out of their way to put forward the idea that fooling Panaxeth is possible. I think it's perfectly reasonable to meet all the requirements you've stated, by having Zorian leave by agreeing to be Panaxeth's servant. I wouldn't be disappointed if we get the mega happy super ending that you're mentioning, but it seems a bit too predictable. Plus putting Zorian under the death bind would be an interesting device to propel the story. There's plenty of research into modifying soul markers, that would be largely irrelevant development unless they used it in some way. The author has an out for Zorian that seems to be fairly satisfying.
Maybe none of that will happen either, but it's certainly plausible. Along with countless other ways forward.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)
The other temporary loopers have not been offered tickets out. So they aren't necessarily in the same position as Zorian.
u/turtleswamp [+1] (18 hours later)
It probably isn't possible to extend Zoain's time with a temporary marker, and even if it is trying it would be a huge gamble.
The marker has to be placed before the end of the current loop, and the force reboot of Zorian is scheduled for after the current loop ends before the next loop starts, and the reset is specifically intended to override Zorian's permanent marker. Since there is no opportunity to place the temporary marker after the cleanup but before Zorian's soul is discarded and recreated to begin the next loop and the reset is intended to remove aberrant markers including Zorian's permanent marker it probably overrides all the usual checks for markers.
If there is a cheat with temporary markers Z&Z have not yet learned enough about the inner workings of the actual reset process (specifically what the gate does to destroy and recreate souls when it resets the loop, and how the planned reset of Zorian differs form the usual reset) to know about it, so they'd have to be throwing a "hail Marry" to even bother trying it.
u/dragondraems42 [+11] (55 minutes later)
Hoooooh boy that was an important chapter wasn't it? For a bit I thought the part about reneging on the deal and excepting your death at the end of the month was foreshadowing. It might still be, but probably not.
Zach needs to go to anger management, and Zorian need to stop listening to eldritch abominations that want to make a deal with him.
u/sambelulek [+10] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (an hour later)
Zorian did not have inclination to agree with Panaxeth, but he can be convinced when presented by a good reason, like any reasonable character do.
Stepping into Zorian's shoes, what Panaxeth presented rings some truth. One, Zach is a good actor, nothing so far confirmed that Zach has no lying bone in his body. Two, Zach's unwilling to risk Zorian from checking his mind. And finally three, Zach immediately trying to ensure Zorian stays in line (put his hand on Zorian's shoulder asking to disregard Panaxeth) after discord sowed between them. This is a high time to get paranoid!
u/I-want-pulao [+8] (2 hours later)
At the same time, this is the exact time that Panaxeth wants to sow discord between the two of them.
u/keturn [+11] (an hour later)
The terms of that deal: >!help me or die at the end of the month.!<
That timeframe is suspiciously similar to the way the time loop is already behaving.
u/kaukamieli [+10] (10 hours later)
I bet Zorian fails getting out and just wakes up the next loop.
"That lying bitch."
u/None [+3] (7 hours later)
Interesting. Maybe he could just put them in a different loop to verify their involvement?
u/CrystalineAxiom [+5] (a day later)
They could easily verify they were in a loop from the fact that demons and angels are unreachable.
u/None [+2] (a day later)
Good point, I didn't think of that.
u/Alphanos [+10] The Bright Powers (5 hours later)
This chapter makes me question whether Silverlake actually made a deal with Panaxeth at all.
Consider: towards the end of this chapter, Panaxeth admits that its primary goal once the key was assembled was to prevent Zach from exiting the loop and wrecking its escape attempt. Its chosen method to try to prevent this was to attempt to cause infighting and division among the ranks of Zach, Zorian, and their allies.
Given that we know this now, how confident are we that Silverlake actually betrayed them and made a deal with Panaxeth? Sure, her doing so is somewhat plausible. But that also means that if Panaxeth planned to sow discord and prevent the loopers from exiting, knocking Silverlake out of the loop whether she agreed to any deal or not is an excellent strategy to make them all distrust one another.
u/Seyt77 [+10] (14 hours later)
Well Panaxeth could have taken out zorian just as easily if he could take out silverlake which seems the smartest thing considering that he is the biggest threat(Not considering Zach since he seems untouchable without someone to work for panaxeth).
I don't think for a second silverlake didn't betray them and took the same exit as RR since it makes the most sense. Despite that, real world silverlake might be an unlikely ally since she won't ever help her loop self(loop self would always try to kill her other self in order to get her stuff back).
u/Seyt77 [+19] (26 minutes later)
Even though Zach is seen as an enemy, I doubt Zorian has the heart to kill Zach. He might try to do some mind stuff but he knows Zach too much to kill him. Maybe stow him away somehow and deceive the bad guy though operating under a security camera at all times is difficult.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+12] (an hour later)
The very fact that he deceives Zach at the end gives me pause on that. Zorian has grown a lot in the time loop, but he's a fairly selfish individual. He's not like Zach, who gladly throws his life away to protect his friends. He could conceivably find some way to rationalize it to himself.
Under normal circumstances he wouldn't, but with death as the alternative who knows? He's certainly done terrible things to people he views as enemies.
u/sicutumbo [+26] (an hour later)
I don't think he will. He doesn't even really consider betraying Zach. He was suspicious of compulsions Zach may have been under, but I think he's extremely unlikely to go for Panaxeth's contract unless it's impossible to escape, in which case Zach would be just as dead anyways. When Panaxeth offered the deal last chapter, Zorian refused before even hearing the details, and I think he's feeling about the same now.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+11] (an hour later)
That certainly makes sense, but I'm not willing to rule out the possibility. If it wasn't something that plays to Zorian's character flaws and seems plausible for him to do, it wouldn't be an interesting dilemma in the first place.
u/CrystalineAxiom [+1] (a day later)
He won't betray Zach long term, but he might attack him in order to look through his mind.
u/pleasedothenerdful [+1] (2 days later)
Except Zach won't be dead; he can escape at any time now that they have the keys. He is the controller. That's why Panaxeth didn't bother to talk to him last chapter--the primordial has zero leverage on Zach.
u/sambelulek [+1] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (3 hours later)
The only way for both of them to survive is one of them ferry the other's soul. The question is, how good is Panaxeth (in case Zorian ferrying Zach) or Guardian of Threshold (in case Zach ferrying Zorian) to perceive such ploy, and how trusting is one toward another. Zorian ferrying Zach sounds riskier. Not only because Panaxeth would be aware what they're planning, but also Panaxeth itself is not bound by his word.
u/Nimelennar [+1] (19 hours later)
A way for this to happen:
We know that creating a simulacrum gets you more than halfway to becoming a lich.
A lich's phylactery is a physical object.
You can store physical objects in the Orb until looping ends.
You can also store physical objects in the mind (using Ilsa's technique), and recreate them if you have the materials at hand to do so.
So:
- Zorian uses the rest of this restart to become a lich.
- Zach puts the phylactery into the Orb.
- Zach uses the rest of the (dozen?) remaining restarts to learn how to create a phylactery and how to use Ilsa's technique. Zorian uses this time to learn how to build better bodies.
- Zach takes the mind print of Zorian's phylactery into the real world, Zorian creates a body in the real world (or Zach makes one for him).
- Good to go.
Do I think that's actually going to happen? No. I think the "how small can the writing be and be reproducible" issue with Ilsa's technique prevents a phylactery from being reproduced accurately enough to be transported out of the loop this way. But I thought it was a fun idea.
u/DismalWard77 [+3] (23 hours later)
I don't think you understand what a phylactery does. It's only used as a container to house a soul. If you use Ila's technique, then it would only copy the container but wouldn't copy the soul resting inside since that's a whole branch of magic altogether. You'd have to modify Ilsa's spell to contain a soul magic aspect which would be impossible to do in the remaining time (not to mention the orb hasn't shown capability to house any souls).
As for mind wise, I think you are thinking of a form of a memory packet which Zach hasn't the time to master the necessary magic to be messing with memories/minds (even a copy of one) to be trusted with something as delicate and complex as Zorian's mind without it falling it apart during the transfer. Zorian hasn't even dealt with transferring minds yet and it would take a some time to do even that(testing and all) which they don't much of.
u/Nimelennar [+1] (a day later)
I did say that I didn't think using Ilsa's technique to bring a phylactery out of the loop would work (although saving Zorian in the short term by putting it in the Orb's storage area might).
Side note- why haven't they been putting the other pieces of the Key into the Orb's storage area? Has there been a reason given as to why that wouldn't work? (Edit: right; it stores memories, not objects; I was conflating it with the Ilsa thing again. Never mind, carry on)
But yeah, a memory packet wouldn't work. Even if Zorian could be taught to create it and Zach could be taught to hold and transfer it, there's no way that real!Zorian could learn how to integrate it with his own mind in the month he has to spare.
u/sambelulek [+1] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (a day later)
Even if this plan is successful, Zorian will only end up with complete memory but not his mastery.
u/sambelulek [+1] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (a day later)
There's much failing to this plan. For one, what you store in your mind is a blueprint. Indeed it does not require you to be a mind mage (many alteration mage can do this), but the space it takes up is equivalent to the blueprint complexity. Also, because what you store is a blueprint, a recreation of it would result in freshly made phylactery. No soul inside it whatsoever.
There's other failing too. But these are minor when compared to the first. One, I'm not sure Zach has the space to put Imperial Orb blueprint inside his mind. Two, it took Zorian ~6 restarts to master Simulacrum spell; I'm not sure how much time he would take even if he's currently a better soul mage. At the end of the chapter, they're at least 16 days into the restart. Zorian would have 45 days left if Imperial Orb black room has not been successfully improved. Third, I'm sure getting out with phylactery blueprint inside his mind is allowed by Guardian of Threshold, but what good does it serve? Zach must ferry Zorian soul. But, will he be able to?
u/Nimelennar [+1] (2 days later)
As I said in my first comment positing this idea: I don't think committing a phylactery to memory would work (and I brain-farted and misremembered what the function of the Orb within the loop was).
u/None [+34] (11 minutes later)
[deleted]
u/FriendlyAnnatar [+26] The Greater Good (an hour later)
What's with the vulgar indignation for the standard "I'll crush anyone who gets in my way" statement?
u/Oblivion3418 [+3] (an hour later)
You don't want to know
u/FriendlyAnnatar [+9] The Greater Good (3 hours later)
"That which can be destroyed by the truth should be, " unless it's a spoiler.
u/Oblivion3418 [+6] (3 hours later)
I'm guessing /u/ShareDVI was referring to Roko's basilisk, in which case, /u/FriendlyAnnatar doesn't want to know
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+5] Father of Learning (an hour later)
Whether they be gods, or kings, or all the armies in creation
u/t3tsubo [+0] (2 hours later)
I'm guessing because paperclips
u/reaper7876 [+22] (39 minutes later)
Deep breaths. There's no acausal trade here, they're just claiming that they'll crush those who defy them (causing the defiance to go away). Standard evil conqueror boilerplate.
u/None [+2] (7 hours later)
Yep, I got too excited, considering the fact that each loop a primordial created dimension with simulations of people
u/Overmind_Slab [+7] (2 hours later)
Is this some Roko’s basilisk type stuff?
u/CrystalineAxiom [+1] (a day later)
Certainly sounds like it.
u/rtsynk [+9] (an hour later)
they said Silverlake was necessary to their escape plans, probably because of her dimensional magic skills
but Silverlake isn't the only dimensional mage out there
I know I keep mentioning this, but QI did give them the names of two other dimensional mages that we haven't met yet
u/sicutumbo [+7] (an hour later)
I think it's a bit too late to be introducing new, important characters to the story, although I regret that I have to use Doylist reasoning to say so. I think they will use the Orb as a black room to get more time and improve their dimensionality up to the point where Silver lake isn't needed as much, as well as let Zorian fill up the Crown with his own mana so that he can have even more simulacra helping out (he doesn't need to maintain positive mana regeneration if he has a lot of mana stored up to burn)
u/rtsynk [+3] (an hour later)
while their role might be important, there's no reason for the characters themselves to be important
u/sambelulek [+1] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (3 hours later)
I'm in favor of keeping Silverlake in loop. Devil you know is better than devil you do not. Current disastrous mistake is part misfortune. Not entirely on Controller and Anomaly.
Oh, dang, I like using Anomaly to refer Zorian. I will use it from now on.
Edit: I assume you're talking about past decision. Because unless Zorian can somehow extend his stay, contacting new dimensionalism mage has no merit.
u/rtsynk [+1] (5 hours later)
Because unless Zorian can somehow extend his stay, contacting new dimensionalism mage has no merit
why? they still have a bit of time before the loop ends
depending on how skilled they are, there's no reason they couldn't immediately fill whatever role they were expecting Silverlake to do
u/sambelulek [+3] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (10 hours later)
Oh, at least two reasons. First, you overestimate the things that can be done in a day. Arranging trade or hiring outside help is multi-days business. Making sure they're competent in specific kind of dimensionalism magic will take yet more time. This is important, because botching a spell is not only dangerous, it cost time as well. Suppose they're uber competent, have recognizable temperament, easily motivated, and trustworthy, I still think it'll at least took a week to bring them up to speed.
Second, Zorian is about to trust unknown mage in operation of utmost importance. Even if they're just as selfish as Silverlake, lack of familiarity will make them more likely to betray. Oh, you cannot assume other people is less selfish than Silverlake, that's just trusting your fate to the roll of a die. You may hope for the best, but you should always expect the worst.
One thing that people either here or on fictionpress review page failed to perceive regarding Silverlake's temperament is that she's perfectionist. She saw everyone as inefficient and that frustated her because she could do much better under the same condition. This is shown frequently. Remember when she scolded Zorian when he didn't pay attention stirring cauldron? Or when she presented both logical and legal idea to speed up Kael's medical research? Imagine working under and with people below your competence level for a whole year, for every single day, no holiday because both her character and hard deadline: that's stressful! That's why when Panaxeth presented its offer, Silverlake saw it as the opportunity to free herself of figurative shackles. Or at least, take matter to her own hand.
u/rtsynk [+2] (12 hours later)
It's not a day, it's more like a week. And while Zach and Zorian have 'dabbled' in dimensional magic, let's not pretend they're experts. There's absolutely no reason a couple of true experts couldn't step in and quickly pickup what's needed or in fact offer better solutions.
As far as trust, I think their other plan doesn't involve going through the guardian at all, so there is no trust issue. Either the plan works and they all get out or it doesn't work and they're all stuck.
u/sambelulek [+3] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (a day later)
They're trying to penetrate, bore through Panaxeth's prison, and break out into real world while avoiding or handling Panaxeth interference during the whole process. That's not single person work. And like every multi-person spell work, trust is required. When our characters tried to create a pocket mansion, they're all trusted each other. They tried to defend each other from many fatal lashes. Still, one simulacrum got destroyed. It's easy to let harm happen if you know it won't come your way.
Chapter 85, the potential true expert.
In exchange, he provided them with the names and locations of two secretive mages that also knew a thing or two about pocket dimension magic.
Also, we can't be sure those two pocket dimension maker already mastered more general dimensionalism magic. And both Zach & Zorian are no longer dabblers. Both mastered teleport and pocket dimension crafting, Zach can alter trajectory thanks to enchantment, Zorian can gate at will, as well as haste (ch.63). That's practially all area under dimensionalism magic as we're told by author, except maybe phasing and micro-gating.
u/None [+15] (28 minutes later)
Hm, what if Zorian does kill Zach, but he takes all of Zach's memories and transplants them into real world zach? Zorian would feel a bti guilty but it'd be better than the alternative— both dying, or zach dying.
u/Fredlage [+41] (46 minutes later)
This is real Zach's soul, only his real body is outside the loop
u/sicutumbo [+15] (58 minutes later)
I don't think this is a solution to anything. If Zorian has that level of access to Zach's mind, he can just check for compulsions then. If there's no compulsions, he doesn't need to do anything. If there are compulsions, he can subvert them or counter them or something, as Zorian said previously that mind mages can counter soul geases by simply making the person forget the compulsion.
u/CeruleanTresses [+19] (2 hours later)
We also can't discount the possibility that Zach genuinely has ulterior motives incompatible with Zorian's goals, no mindfuckery required, and that's why he wouldn't let Zorian in his head.
u/Seyt77 [+3] (49 minutes later)
I'm thinking Zach can leave anytime he wants and he will be fine to leave the loop whenever. Zorian is the only one alongside the others that have a time limit but Zach is cool. I bet the angels were the ones who put the mind compulsion to distrust mind magic.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+2] (an hour later)
I don't remember any compulsions to distrust mind magic. There weren't any pieces of solid evidence showing that anyways. Zach clearly doesn't like the idea of people messing with his head, but I think that might just be a completely reasonable thing.
u/DismalWard77 [+13] (2 hours later)
Unreasonable at many points when he realized he had a compulsion placed on him and might even have missing parts of why he is in the loop. Its obvious he is the original controller yet he still wishes to break out the time loop without his memories. Dude is obviously under some compulsion or whatever you want to call it 100% to not let others access his mind/memories.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+3] (2 hours later)
You think so? He's a hothead from the beginning, with a very strong sense of what's right and what's wrong. His reactions make sense without a compulsion. Just look at the rest of the group. Every single one of them learns to protect their mind from Zorian as soon as they find out what he can do. Every single one.
And at no point does Zorian imply that he can recover Zach's memories. Even if he found out that they were purposely removed, that doesn't mean he could pull them out of the ether and return them to Zach's brain. Maybe he could, but it's completely reasonable for Zach not to believe that.
Maybe Zach is under a compulsion to avoid mind mages, but there is by no means "100%" certain evidence of it. Every piece of evidence for it is speculation.
u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (8 hours later)
The others defended their minds, yeah, but they didn't have clear proof that someone had erased a whole bunch of their memories, probably including lots of highly valuable information about the loop's origins and purposes.
Given that kind of proof, you bet Xvim would march himself straight to the nearest trustworthy mind mage and do everything possible to recover those bits of himself.
Also, you are mistaken about Zorian's expectations; he did indeed think that it was likely he could recover Zach's memories, if RR (presumably) didn't do a thorough job. See chapter 57.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+1] (15 hours later)
I didn't mention Zorian's expectations, I mentioned Zach's. Zach is naturally distrustful of mind magic, and it's not hard to see him rationalize away the memories as lost and irretrievable. Zorian doesn't try much to convince Zach that the memories themselves could be returned, focusing instead on convincing him that he needs to remove the compulsion, if my memory is correct.
Also, we have no evidence that Xvim would do so, given that he constantly holds a mind shield in place, he may very well be as paranoid about it as anyone. You aren't thinking about the stigma involved with mind magic in this world. It's like inviting a thief you trust in, while your not watching them, to investigate some other theft. It's worse, because the thief can remove your ability to remember asking them about it. And they can kill you without resistance.
And Zach has personally witnessed Zorian doing just that to others.
u/thrawnca [+5] Carbon-based biped (22 hours later)
I didn't mention Zorian's expectations, I mentioned Zach's.
I quote from your comment:
"And at no point does Zorian imply that he can recover Zach's memories."
And from chapter 57:
"Well, it's true that a properly blanked out memory is irrecoverable. But why assume Red Robe executed the mind wipe flawlessly? I saw his mind magic in action at one point, when he tried to use it against me, and he wasn't all that good with it. There is a good chance he missed something."
u/abnotwhmoanny [+4] (23 hours later)
That's pretty black and white. You got me there. I concede the point. I have a bad habit of letting myself get carried away and speaking with more certainty than I actually have.
u/zonules_of_zinn [+2] (13 hours later)
remember that zach has deliberately missing memories. he specifically doesn't remember RR-candidate who disappeared from their class.
and still, he acts completely unreasonable when discussing letting zorian probe him. iirc, he doesn't even acknowledge that zorian could get valuable information, or remove a geas if it exists.
i think the refusal to acknowledge that a geas could exist, in this situation, is evidence towards its existence.
...but i really ought to track down the chapter to make sure that was how their conversation went.
u/CrystalineAxiom [+1] (a day later)
Fine. 99% evidence that Zach has ulterior motives or is under a compulsion. There's no other reason for him to avoid mind magic like he has so far.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+1] (a day later)
No other reason? None at all? You can hold whatever view you want, but let's not be silly. You speak with certainty of things you can in no way be certain of. That's hardly rational.
u/Negative_Yesterday [+1] (5 months later)
Boom, compulsion. BTW if you felt like there were other explanations you could easily have listed them instead of claiming there weren't any. That wasn't very cash money of you.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+1] (5 months later)
I appreciate this 5 month old response. I didn't think it necessary, but there are literally thousands of alternative explanations as to why someone wouldn't allow someone to invade their mind. Especially someone who you have personally witnessed scrambling people's brains. Was a compulsion the most likely explanation given the information available at the time? Quite possibly, but that's hardly the point is it?
Choosing the result you personally believe is most likely and listing it as the only possible result is just silly. What you have done is called, "Making an educated guess". Calling that guess a 100% certainty was the thing that I did, and continue to, object to. The actual result does not retroactively make your actions at the time, given the information you had at the time, any more rational.
u/Seyt77 [+2] (2 hours later)
Saving your comments for when they actually reveal said compulsions.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+4] (2 hours later)
That's fine. I could well be wrong. Nothing wrong with being wrong from time to time. Still, there hasn't been any solid evidence of it placed forward in the story. That isn't a lie now, nor would it be if I turn out to be wrong.
u/Seyt77 [+6] (2 hours later)
I'm surprised you weren't convinced with xvims meeting with Zach about mind magic and his irrationality about it. Even learning he is the original host and not letting anyone in his mind. Or do you believe Zach isn't the original host too?
u/abnotwhmoanny [+1] (2 hours later)
Why would being the original host matter? Reacting violently to things he views as a threat is Zach's go to response to things, and it's very easy to see how he would view mind magic as one of those things.
Would it be rational to allow someone you trusted to check your mind for tampering if there was evidence of it? Of course. Is Zach a rational agent? No. Emphatically no. His reactions line up exactly with how I would expect his character to react without compulsion. That doesn't mean there ISN'T compulsion, but there certainly isn't gaurenteed to be any.
u/Seyt77 [+4] (2 hours later)
Even zorian himself and the baddie agree Zach is under compulsions in regards to some of his irrationality. How much more evidence you need that Zach is under compulsion/some spell and it isn't just natural paranoia?
u/abnotwhmoanny [+2] (4 hours later)
When does Panathex ever talk about Zach being under compulsion? Panathex says quite the opposite. That Zach remembers everything is and is "acting" in order to trick Zorian. And the only time Zorian mentions Zach being under compulsion is in regards to forgetting about Veyers. Neither of them, at any point, imply that they even suspect that Zach's attitude towards having people tamper with his mind is at all unnatural. No one ever states that in any way, shape, or form.
As for evidence... any? Any evidence at all would be a start. Zach being unwilling to have people tamper with his mind is entirely natural and seems to be the entire foundation of your theory. You may very well be right, but I don't see the corroborating evidence.
Let me put this another way. When I leave home, I lock the door. I do it every single time. But sometimes when I get in my car, I can't remember if I did. Now I do lock the door every single time, so me getting out of my car and heading back to check isn't a rational decision, but I do it. Now I could very well be under some compulsion to lock my door, but it's nearly impossible to tell. Because my actions would make sense whether or not I'm under any supernatural compulsion to do so. Me getting out of the car isn't evidence, even if it's irrational. It fits perfectly with what I would do in EITHER case.
u/thrawnca [+4] Carbon-based biped (12 hours later)
Locking your car is rational. But if you have clear proof that someone has previously broken the lock and stolen valuables from your trunk, then refusing to let the police inspect the interior is not rational.
Zach is locking the stable after the horse has bolted, and in doing so he's preventing Zorian from potentially recapturing the horse. That is suspicious.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+1] (15 hours later)
Locking the stable after the horse has bolted is a saying which implies you no longer have anything to protect. Letting a mind mage in his head still holds all the dangers it would always hold. His deepest secrets revealed, his personality and memories altered, and his permanent death. A more accurate metaphor would be to having someone break into your house and steal a vase, then not letting someone you already severely distrusted come in to investigate the theft. That's something that happens ALL THE TIME in the real world. Many people distrust the police, and most of them don't call the police when robbed. That's not even irrational if you have reason to distrust the local police.
And I think everyone has good reason to distrust mind magic.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (22 hours later)
A more accurate metaphor would be to having someone break into your house and steal a vase, then not letting someone you already severely distrusted come in to investigate the theft.
No, it's like still protecting the vase, while not allowing someone to investigate the theft of the jewellery, home theatre, and several sports cars.
And Zach doesn't have any special distrust of Zorian, just a general objection to mind magic. He actually said he trusted Zorian more than he would trust a mage guild professional. So, he doesn't want anyone, be it the police or whoever, to investigate, because he wants to protect the vase, in a house that's been looted and trashed.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+1] (23 hours later)
Right, that's why I said "thief you trust". Zach has personally witnessed Zorian use his mind powers to steal knowledge from people. He's definitely a thief, even if he is one Zach trusts.
And no, it's not like protecting the vase. You let a mind mage in, and he turns on you? You lose everything. Welcome to being a vegetable. In Zach's case, he would quite literally be better off dead.
Edit: I said "thief you trust" in a different post. My bad. When I was talking about the thing you distrust I was referencing mind magic specifically, not Zorian. And once again, we all should distrust mind magic being on used on us.
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (a day later)
And once again, we all should distrust mind magic being on used on us.
In principle, yes, but again, that horse has bolted. There's good evidence that Zach is still potentially being affected by magical compulsions. Locking your door might keep out home invaders, but after you've already had a break-in and you're severely injured, it's not rational to lock your door against the ambulance.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+1] (a day later)
Just because he was affected by mind magic once, doesn't mean in any way that mind magic can't harm him again. In fact, I would suspect that being harmed by something would make you less likely to open yourself to it again as a cure. The "horse" may have bolted as you've put it, but that doesn't make Zach LESS vulnerable. If anything it makes him MORE vulnerable.
He has something to gain, sure. But remember Zach's outlook on life. He didn't even think about soul defense for literally decades. He doesn't stop to consider consequences. He moves blindly forward towards his next objective, and he does it his way. To that kind of person, recovering these memories might not seem like that big of a deal. Even if it logically is a big deal. But having his mind invaded bothers him, and most everyone, a great deal. The prospect of it having happened in the past, might actually do more to convince someone like him to AVOID letting anyone else in than it does to convince him to do as you recommend.
It's not the right move. But neither are most of Zach's actions.
u/zonules_of_zinn [+3] (13 hours later)
if i show you timestamped video of yourself locking the door, and you still get up to check it, that is evidence of compulsion. there are degrees of irrationality, and acting to probably sabotage your group and ignore that video evidence (ie the memory wipe) is compulsion-level irrationality.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+1] (14 hours later)
You showing me video of it happening isn't that much more than my knowledge of the past umpteen times this exact event has happened. I'd still check. Humans are not rational creatures. Our minds are flawed at best.
The question isn't how irrational the action is (I can find you a man who argues with ghosts on the sidewalk and while he might believe the government is controlling his brain, I doubt that's the case), it's how different the behavior is from your normal behavior.
That being said, it's hard to gauge in Zach's case, because he's consistently been quick to judge, hot headed, and irrational in almost all cases. His actions are consistent with his character. Hell, Zorian's brother has been just as protective of his mind as Zach. It's not weird to be paranoid about letting people troll through your deepest secrets, give them the ability to manipulate who you are at the very core of your being, and also kill you.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (22 hours later)
The one difficulty facing Zach is, if he doesn't exit during this iteration, he'll have a much harder time gathering the Key in future. The crown, for example, largely depends on Zorian, since QI's mental defences are a bit rusty.
I suppose it's possible to unbar the Gate before the end of the iteration, but then wait to use it.
u/DismalWard77 [+4] (an hour later)
Zorian can't leave without Zach though and I'd be surprised if Pan would actually honor his deal in letting Zorian leave without a kill switch or at all.
u/None [+0] (an hour later)
You never know, this story is in r/rational, therefore, evil has a reason for what it's doing.
u/CrystalineAxiom [+2] (a day later)
Are you suggesting that Panaxeth needs an ulterior motive for wanting Zach dead? I thought its reason for wanting Zach dead was glaringly obvious. Zach is essentially a superhuman mage who happens to have the best chance of getting out of the time loop alive and wants to stop Panaxeth.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (2 hours later)
Why kill him when you can just lock away his memories and implant a compulsion to leave the loop after Zorian does?
u/None [+1] (3 hours later)
Patty won't let Zach out with Zorian -- pretty sure.
My idea, way up there was me playing devils advocate, there's probably a better way that the author is gonna scrounge up, but what I wrote would be the last resort.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (3 hours later)
Patty already admitted it couldn't stop Zach. Once Zorian is out, Zach can unlock the gate and exit freely.
Apparently Patty can't read minds, so it should be possible to set up triggers to make this work.
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (4 hours later)
Bonus: Zorian would gain leverage to actually make the abomination follow through. He wouldn't need to hide the fact that the wipe was reversible, just the fact that he compelled Zach to leave. So if Panaxeth tries to back out, he can just threaten to restore Zach and turn him loose.
u/None [+1] (4 hours later)
Patty won't let zorian out until he kills zach
u/thrawnca [+2] Carbon-based biped (5 hours later)
Killing Zach is useless. Only mind/soul attacks achieve anything against a Controller. Plus, killing him would reset the loop and wipe Zorian out, so there's no way Zorian would agree to do that.
What Panaxeth actually asked for was to scramble Zach's mind so he wouldn't be a threat: "Wreck the Controller's mind as much as you're able". Sealing away 99% of his memories should achieve that just fine. Then Panaxeth lets Zorian out - under threat of Zach being unsealed - and the hidden trigger activates, compelling mind-wiped Zach to unbar the Gate and let himself out. Zorian then tracks Zach down in the real world and unseals him.
u/None [+3] (5 hours later)
You're right.
u/Laser68 [+7] (59 minutes later)
If the controller can sense anomalies when it gets the keys to run a diagnostic, how did red robe successfully get out, and why didn't the controller sense Zorian then?
u/Nimelennar [+27] (an hour later)
Because you don't need a key to leave through an open door.
u/Luck732 [+10] (an hour later)
As Nimelennar said, this is the first time the key has been presented. RR didn't need the key to leave.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+6] (an hour later)
The "controller" is Zach, but if you mean the guardian, Red Robe didn't necessarily bring the key with him. The gate wasn't barred until the first person left. Also, I highly doubt Red Robe could have gotten the pieces of the key without everyone hearing about it. He, at the very least, didn't break into the royal treasury.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+12] Father of Learning (2 hours later)
People, you're missing a major thing! Panaxeth just proved he can throw people out of the Sovereign Gate at will. If he really wanted to keep Zach in the loop, then he could just keep ejecting him before he could get into the gate. This last offer clearly has a different purpose than just Zach.
u/thrawnca [+14] Carbon-based biped (3 hours later)
Pretty sure there's a cost to interfering, so Zach would eventually get out.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+1] Father of Learning (3 hours later)
Do we know that or guess that?
u/thrawnca [+12] Carbon-based biped (3 hours later)
We're relying on the primordial's own claims about its limitations - but obviously it must have some limitations.
u/Ardvarkeating101 [+1] Father of Learning (4 hours later)
Has anything happened involving the guardian it hasn't wanted? Are there any actual limitations on that front?
u/zonules_of_zinn [+4] (13 hours later)
ah, i thought said primordial, not guardian. well, here's the relevant primordial quote:
"Last time you didn't even dare show your face in front of me," Zach said loudly in a challenging tone, folding his hands over his chest.
"As the Controller, you are especially well protected from any tampering," Panaxeth said, shifting its attention towards Zach for a moment. "And you can leave at any time. You do not require my help, nor am I able to stop you from leaving. You are of no use to me."
u/AngryEdgelord [+12] (2 hours later)
Alright, the only way I'm seeing Zorian getting out of this time loop right now is by going all out and trying to mind control Panaxeth. Maybe Zorian can fool Panaxeth into thinking that Zorian did as he asked and thereby get out of the time loop. That's the only path out of this thing I see baring some major discovery or new information next chapter.
u/GarlicBandit [+17] (2 hours later)
That would be an interesting take. The Cult of the Dragon Below thought they could MC Panaxeth, and Zorian was able to out Mind Control all of their mind mages put together like 40 chapters ago.
At first I assumed this wasn't a possibility because I thought Panaxeth as an all-knowing supremely powerful superintelligent being... but honestly he seems fairly limited in terms of what he can know and understand based on what we've seen this chapter. He wasn't very good at convincing Zorian and the others, he can't seem to use mind magic on anyone in the time loop, and it doesn't seem like he considers Zorian a huge threat, though we know he's concerned about Zach getting loose.
It may be that it would be impossible to out mind-magic Panaxeth outside of the time loop on an even playing field, but Zorian is essentially already inside of Panaxeth, and Panaxeth is restricted from using mind magic so he can't fight back offensively using mind magic. It seems to me that the circumstances are perfect for Zorian to take Panaxeth on.
I actually think this might be Zorian has a chance of winning a mind magic battle between him and Panaxeth. If only for the few moments it takes for Zorian to escape.
u/CrystalineAxiom [+5] (a day later)
Imagine hive-mind Zorian with the mana reserves of the crown and 20 simulacrums. He might stand a chance against a primordial with that level of power.
Or it might not even be close. No way to know.
u/GarlicBandit [+4] (a day later)
Yeah, I also figured Zorian would have fully exploited the rats hive-mind abilities and figured out how to boost his mana reserves with divine magic and give himself a whole slew of blood magic abilities before he tried to directly take on the primordial.
I do think it seems like Zorian would stand a chance though. Panaxeth doesn't seem very powerful with the restraints on him, and he isn't much of a super intelligence. My original assumption was that he was a Cthulhu-type godlike creature, but he seems to be quite limited while in the gods prison.
u/CrystalineAxiom [+3] (a day later)
figured out how to boost his mana reserves with divine magic
I doubt he'll be able to do this. Even Qatach Ichl says he has trouble affecting divine magic. Maybe if they had another 50 restarts to work with. Or maybe if the time dilation of the orb gives them years to work with. But as things stand, they're having trouble even modifying existing divine magic, let alone creating their own. Regardless, they'll need a lot more time to make that part viable.
I do think it seems like Zorian would stand a chance though. Panaxeth doesn't seem very powerful with the restraints on him, and he isn't much of a super intelligence. My original assumption was that he was a Cthulhu-type godlike creature, but he seems to be quite limited while in the gods prison.
One can only hope, however it's entirely possible that he's restrained from doing much while still retaining all his protective abilities. If that's the case, they probably don't stand a chance at mentally compelling him. If the gods had trouble killing primordials, they almost certainly don't have any natural weaknesses.
u/GarlicBandit [+1] (2 days later)
figured out how to boost his mana reserves with divine magic
I doubt he'll be able to do this. Even Qatach Ichl says he has trouble affecting divine magic.
At this point I don't think it will happen either. I thought Zorian patching up his primary deficiency would be one of the major steps to escaping the time loop, but at this point we don't have the time left.
That being said, there's evidence of people in the setting working with divine magic. I think it would be fully possible for Zach and Zorian to create at least some crude divine augments if they'd hadn't needed to focus on dimensional magic.
I believe the author said they they were considering writing another story in the setting. Perhaps I'll get my godly fix then.
u/BanjoPanda [+1] (7 hours later)
Maybe he isn't really concerned about mind magic even if he's not proficient in it. There's no telling a mind mage would be able to handle a primordial's mind even if he managed to enter it.
u/GarlicBandit [+1] (a day later)
We can't know for sure, but Panaxeth doesn't seem to be a super-intelligence, and Zorian has gotten a lot of practice at reading non-human minds. This one's just a bit stronger than most.
u/IFap2PB [+3] (2 hours later)
I like this idea. It's the only way I can see of to bring the time loop to a close without pulling a Deus Ex Machina. There may be another way but this is the most convincing end-game scenario that's been presented thus far.
u/Seyt77 [+1] (11 hours later)
Didn't they already float the possibility of exiting the loop with their own dimensional spell? That's the entire reason why they had silverlake because she was going to help them do it and have everyone leave. Pretty sure they are still heading with that plan, with or without silverlake.
u/AngryEdgelord [+1] (a day later)
Yeah but they also said that it wasn't ready, and the possibility of that working out well without Silverlake is even lower. They didn't think they were going to be able to do it this loop beforehand, but they had to make the effort because all the temporary markers were about to expire.
u/Seyt77 [+1] (a day later)
I doubt they are going to just give up because silverlake is missing. They have no other options at this point
u/AngryEdgelord [+1] (2 days later)
They can not give up all they want. Unless this suddenly becomes an Anime where the will power and dedication > the logical outcome given known values they're not going to succeed.
They've haven't succeeded at all with it thus far, and Zorian was already figuring they weren't going to be able to do it this restart. That was before they lost Silverlake. Now their odds of succeeding are virtually nil.
u/IFap2PB [+1] (2 days later)
They did but they're already operating under the notion that it was highly unlikely to succeed. Less so now.
u/Angelbaka [+6] (11 hours later)
Well, we probably know how RR became a Looper now. Judging on what just happened and what we know of Zach's character, I would bet that pre-memory edit Zach brought RR into the gate, where the primordial had one of his little "talks" with him, agreed to a deal, and altered his marker as part of the payment. This would explain motivation, timing and abilities and is utterly consistent with post-edit Zach's actions as a Looper.
u/thrawnca [+7] Carbon-based biped (12 hours later)
I don't think that Panaxeth has the power to alter a marker. It seems to be pretty limited in what it can do to the loopers directly.
u/rtsynk [+5] (an hour later)
typo thread
making a contact > contract
destroying to world or menace humanity > destroying the world or menacing humanity
talking to be again > me
u/Hidden-50 [+2] (9 hours later)
Why does Silverlake accepting his offer means there is no point
means -> mean
It had been reduced to smoking crater
to -> to a
When the entered the Sovereign Gate
the -> they
I willing to obliterate everything around me to get free
I -> I am
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (3 days later)
returning to their body/returning to their bodies
had talked with them in private/had talked with them about in private
Guardian of Threshold/Guardian of the Threshold
causing it look/causing it to look
Sparingly, it actually/Surprisingly, it actually
how she looked like/what she looked like
led some credence/lent some credence
by now creating/by not creating
Whose bright idea was to/Whose bright idea was it to
things that survived relatively intact was/thing that survived relatively intact was
which were build/which were built
of the right track/on the right track
all I that needs to/all that needs to
in their marker/in their markers
user to study/used to study
u/AStartlingStatement [+6] (5 hours later)
Silverlake didn't take the deal.
Panaxeth also never said she did.
u/thrawnca [+10] Carbon-based biped (5 hours later)
Silverlake's body got soulkilled. The simplest explanation is that she did, in fact, take the deal.
The only other way we know of that that could happen is if Zach used the dagger to eject her. But if Zach intended to turn against the group, he could already have walked out and left them all behind.
u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+7] (5 hours later)
Is it possible that Panaxeth simply killed her? Maybe she didn't take the deal, but tried to attack/control Panaxeth instead using some secret magic, and Panaxeth killed her in self-defense, then took advantage of her death to sow discord in the group.
u/Seyt77 [+3] (11 hours later)
Do you really think silverlake didn't betray them? Any reason why she would have moral qualms at this stage of the game? Also the gate is barred.
u/ShiranaiWakaranai [+2] (13 hours later)
It's not really a matter of morality but a matter of greed and overconfidence. She could have tried to attack and control Panaxeth thinking she could win, just like the Cult of the Dragon Below. She has been extensively researching primordials for a long time after all.
Alternatively, she might have forcefully magicked herself through the gate despite Panaxeth's attempts to stop her, and Panaxeth is just pretending she made a deal with it rather than admit it was bested by some ant.
u/Seyt77 [+4] (14 hours later)
Despite all this, it doesn't change anything for Z&Z situation. She is gone from the loop and they will defeat her outside regardless of what she says if she is even found. So if she got out by her own accord ( highly unlikely) or by Pan makes no difference.
u/sonatablanca [+5] (4 days later)
Am I the only one thinking Silverlake could be out there in the first second of geting out casting an advanced Gate spell waiting for the ones inside to cast one as well so they can make a bridge for everyone to pass and she is like "god I hope this idiots thought about this and not that I betrayed them" lmao
u/GoXDS [+3] (8 days later)
Impossible. The gate needs coordination to connect and that’s not possible across the Gate. There’s a huge time disparity. Her casting the spell will be way more than tens or hundreds of more loops.
Also this is Silverlake..........
u/thrawnca [+3] Carbon-based biped (19 hours later)
My argument to Zach about a memory dive would be something like:
Look, if the primordial really just wanted you out of the picture, then it wouldn't make sense to tell me to attack you right in front of you. It knows how powerful you are; that's why it's afraid of you getting out. It has to know I'd have a better chance of beating you if I surprised you. If that was all it wanted, then it would have separated us for that little chat, but it didn't. Clearly, what it really wanted was to turn us against each other.
If I betrayed you and wrecked your memories like it told me to, I'd be playing right into its hands. And if you don't trust me enough to let me try to fix your memories, you're playing into its hands. Knowing what you've forgotten about the loop and the angels is going to be vital for anyone who makes it out.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+8] (22 hours later)
Yeah. Of course you say that to him. Gotta lower his guard so you can blast his mind, right?
u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped (22 hours later)
> Gotta lower his guard so you can blast his mind, right?
Well, you already know my suggested plan - but that's certainly what you'd tell Panaxeth, yes.
And it's perfectly true that the knowledge locked inside Zach's head would be quite valuable to anyone who gets out. The only reason for Zach not to let Zorian recover it is if he can't trust Zorian inside his head, which mistrust was likely the primordial's goal.
u/matex_xizor [+3] (7 days later)
How does Paxaneth perceive time? He technically isn't part of the time loop, so he should be unaffected by the time dilation. Does that mean that he actually has godlike intelligence that allows him to have several conversations at once in one quadrillionth of a second? That would also explain some of his limitations.
He seems to be unable to physically affect the world inside the loop, but has no problem creating a body in the real world, despite the fact that he is still imprisoned.
u/GarlicBandit [+2] (2 hours later)
Panaxeth's offer seems half-hearted at best. Even if Zorian agreed, Panaxeth has little use for actually seeing the bargain through. He knows Zorian would probably work against him, so he's got no reason to make a fully functioning body for Zorian on the outside. If Zorian actually went ahead and mindfucked Zack, Panaxeth would probably just let Zorian die anyway, or plop his naked soul outside of the time loop with no body just as a means to get rid of him. For Silverlake, he had to make her a body so she could be an agent, but he has no reason to do the same for Zorian.
u/scalymonster [+2] (18 hours later)
I'm curious about the nature of Zach's potential mental compulsions. Any compulsions from Red Robe would be from before Zorian even started looping, so he couldn't have left anything targeting Zorian specifically. Since RR was also a looper, it wouldn't make sense to leave a general "kill other loopers" compulsion, especially not one that only triggers if Zach leaves the loop. In fact, any compulsion that only triggers once Zach leaves the loop would make little sense for RR to create, as RR was hoping to prevent Zach from leaving the loop entirely.
It is a bit more likely that the angels could have left a "once you're out of the loop, kill any other loopers" compulsion as a safeguard against people like RR and Silverlake, but it would make more sense to compel Zach not to allow these people to become an issue in the first place.
Panaxeth's "in the end, one has to kill the other" statement is also suspicious. If a mental compulsion is the danger here, then why ask Zorian to invade Zach's mind, where he could probably remove whatever compulsion Zach may have?
u/thrawnca [+6] Carbon-based biped (19 hours later)
why ask Zorian to invade Zach's mind
Simple: it told Zorian this right in front of Zach. This was clearly intended to damage trust and make Zach fight to keep Zorian out of his mind. The primordial fears letting Zorian get into Zach's mind peacefully and cooperatively.
u/abnotwhmoanny [+3] (23 hours later)
My only problem with that is that the primordial doesn't seem that good at manipulation. Or maybe it's so good it looks bad. Or maybe it thinks I'd think that?
u/icesharkk [+2] (3 days later)
All ZZ-guardian interactions should be considered compromized.
Consider: Panaxeth is powerful, the scope of this power should not be based on what he shows/tells ZZ. Since both under selling his power level and over selling his powerlevel can be used to further his goals the safer options is to assume he is underselling his power.
If Panaxeth is underselling his power then the statement of cost when controlling the guardian is immediately suspect. If controlling hte guardian has little/no cost then all guardian statements are suspect.
Additionally the fact that he ejected ZZ at the end of the dialogue means he could have eject Zach at the beginning of the dialogue and given zorian the new deal without putting Zach on the defensive.
Therefore:
if Panaxeth is underselling his powerlevel then it is likely that zorian is not in immediate danger of loop reset and ZZ should continue their escape plan as normal.
If Panaxeth is overselling his power then the guardian statement is true and Zorian is in immediate danger and ZZ shoould try their escape plan as normal.
Regardless Panaxeth behavior does not create trust between Zorian and himself. if Panazeth wanted Zorian to succeed against Zach he would not have allowed Zach to overhear. If Panaxeth wanted to create trust between himself and Zorian as a conspirator he would not have allowed Zach to over hear. Therefore his statement should be discarded.
Many people are discussing how intelligent Panaxeth is or isn't. I think he's not trying very hard to appear intelligent beecause he does not need to. He needs to prevent ZZ from exiting the loop, he may not be able to stop Zach from exiting (Guardian statements are suspect) any longer. If Panaxeth came accross as very inteligent or powerful it would confirm ZZ's suspicions of him and increase their likelyhood to cooperate. By portraying himself as less intelligent and powerful he makes it more likely that they will defect and damage each other. This is the only course of action that would prevent Zach from exiting the loop through the gate.
u/sambelulek [+2] Ulquaan Ibasa Liquor Smuggler (2 hours later)
Great chapter to confirm the stake and to reignite the old conflict. I personally lean toward Zorian, but conflict with Zach should cost him dearly. That's why I dread Zach-Zorian win-lose situation, never wishing it come to be. I was actually glad that there were multiple method for both of them to escape. Until the last chapter. Sigh... Well, at least higher stake means more excitement.
Two criticism which I hope constructive. I know that Panaxeth pronoun generate a discussion last chapter, but I don't feel it worth a paragraph today. Unlike plot hole that is 'dismissed simulacrum upon entering black-room' many chapters ago, this is merely a consistency problem. One or two sentence acknowledging different pronoun usage should suffice. Author could even just chalk it off. The story took Zorian POV (?) after all.
Then there's the posing of problem. I get what happened and what at stake in just one read through, indicating effective writing. But the experience to get there is cumbersome. Discussion on Noveda mansion has too much distraction before getting confirmation on Panaxeth capability and putting a close on Silverlake 'betrayal.' Noise and important piece of information is rather indistinct there. Author did well, but not as well as last chapter. Maybe breaking passage (using -break- stuff) into more parts so that reader can more clearly identify the piece of information story trying to convey?
u/HungryTentacle [+2] (3 hours later)
Honestly, I'd just go straight into narration mode and lay the whole thing out directly.
There's a knee-jerk reaction to that with the whole "show, don't tell!" idea but that tends to get misinterpreted a lot. Show, don't tell is advice that's meant to apply to character details and important plot points. For distributing important information, I've found it's often more effective to just say it like it is rather than trying to deliver it through character dialogue.
u/tjhance [+2] (15 hours later)
I agree with you. I thought the emotionless, zoomed out view at the beginning of the chapter was jarring, coming right after the end of the last chapter.
I think it could have started with the dialogue at the noveda mansion instead, then alluded to any important details about their escape. Just one possibility.
u/SmokeySakamander [+1] (13 hours later)
Two thoughts on this chapter (apologize in advance if they were already mentioned here before):
- When the characters discern that since Panaxeth didn't use the form of any relatives and such of the party that they haven't interacted with in the time loop, then he does not read minds but is simply aware of what happens in the loop, they miss an interesting follow up question.
They could have possibly deduced what Panaxeth later explains to Zorian about how his memory works (with that whole anthill metaphor thing). Let's assume that for some of the temporary loopers, there are people they interacted with during the loop, but only before they became loopers and not afterwards. If Panaxeth took the shape of any of those people, then he can probably read everything that happened and is happening in the time loop like some sort of record - gleaning very specific details about certain individuals in retrospect, since he had no way of knowing in advance which individuals will be turned into temporary loopers in the future. If he didn't use these forms, maybe his awareness of the time loop's past is more like a normal human's memory, in the since that if asked for very specific details of something that was not considered important in the past, he/she might not be able to recall them.
Obviously it turned out to be the former.
- I'm a little disappointed that it is hinted that the Sovereign Gate can work using any primordial, and it just happens to be Panaxeth this time around. I thought the fact that Panaxeth was the ultimate shape shifter had something to do with how the time loop works. Since the time loop is basically a hundred percent accurate simulation of the real world (occurring in an instant), I thought it was made out of Panaxeth himself, somehow super-shapeshifting in some cosmic sense to turn itself into the shape of the world in the exact state it was when the loop has begun. Its a cool idea, philosophically speaking. But maybe it will end up being even cooler mechanism when revealed X:
u/tangerineskickass [+1] (a day later)
Man, who's idea was it to bind the Gate to the primordial that's being released? Seems like a conflict of interest.
u/SevereCircle [+1] (3 days later)
Maybe this is obvious but couldn't they just ask the Controller not to fix Zorian's soul marker? It's worth a try.