scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/9klps5.md

The implausibility of the world building in Avatar: the Last Airbender: A rationalist critique

• Author: u/luminarium *

• URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/9klps5/the_implausibility_of_the_world_building_in/

• Score: 37

• Created: 2018-10-01T23:55:01

Post:

1. Bender Homogeneity of Nations

This critique actually arose after I tried to world build a world of various magical powers along sect lines, and ran into a problem which in retrospect seems as glaring as day, but which is otherwise not easy to notice.

To draw an analogy, imagine you had four nations: Tailor Nation, Smith Nation, Carpenter Nation and Mason Nation, with each nation populated solely by craftsmen of the namesake of the nation (ie all the tailors in the world are in Tailor Nation, etc). In this kind of world, Tailor Nation would have a desperate need for smiths, carpenters, and masons; and similarly for the other nations. e.g. For Tailor Nation to get a Smith would be of enormous economic benefit to the nation - they'll finally be able to smith tools! Each nation would hence try to attract people from the other nations, and because of the demand for these other professions, smiths, carpenters and masons would want to go to Tailor Nation since they’d earn more there than in their home nation. They’ll then start moving to these other nations until ultimately the distribution of these professions would be the same across all the nations. And if people are not allowed to go to another country, each country would want to train professionals of each type. This is just a result of economic incentive. And as the professions become spread equally to all four nations, the four nations would stop thinking of their nation as being of a particular profession.

The world of Avatar has a similar situation. At the start of the war, each of the four Bender types is represented only in one country, and they can’t replace each other in their abilities, and there’s uses for each of the Bender types. Earth benders in the water nation could produce lasting homes. Water benders in fire nation could carry away superheated waste water from their industry. Fire benders in water nation could keep the water nation from freezing to death as well as jump start the industrial revolution elsewhere, and air benders in fire nation would enhance the quality of their metallurgy from blowing hotter fires. Because of the potential benefits of doing this, benders should go to where they would be in higher demand and the four nations would go out of their way to recruit benders from other nations, until ultimately all four nations have the same proportion of each Bender type. And then you’d no longer have a Fire Nation, a Water Nation etc. the Fire Nation wouldn’t be the only industrializing nation, it wouldn’t have such a strategic advantage over the other nations, and it wouldn’t be strictly fighting non fire benders, it would instead be soldiers of all four Bender types fighting against soldiers of all four Bender types.

In such a setting, then, when the avatar fights against the fire nation he would be fighting against not only fire benders, but air, water, and earth benders, who would be able to team up to perform surprising or synergistic tactics, and thereby be a much more significant threat to the Avatar. Given that the Avatar’s primary advantage is the versatility of his abilities, any nation that fielded multiple types of benders on the battlefield would easily be able to vanquish any nation that didn’t, which would be a military driver for all four nations to diversify their Bender types (if the economic incentive for some reason didn’t suffice), or would lead to the replacement of any nations insisting on a single bender type, with nations that had a mix of all bender types.

Even if the nations were single element at the start of the story, the fire nation should want to impress benders of the other types into its own armed forces because of the tactical advantages doing so would offer. Even if the benders are unwilling, if the fire nation captured their family and threatened to torture or enslave them should the benders refuse to cooperate, I would expect at least a portion of them would agree to do so.

That’s what you’d expect from even the most basic understanding of economics, but the world of Avatar doesn’t look like this, for no good reason. The very fact that the world of Avatar has nations along bender lines is the most damning indictment of the setting as implausible.

2. Walls

The point of walls made of stone is to provide secure, sturdy shelter, including protecting one’s belongings from getting stolen, or from being attacked. But in Earth Nation, literally every bender is an earth bender, meaning any one of these people can treat your house like it’s rice paper. Any of them can go into your home and loot your belongings, or kill you in the middle of the night with little or no advance warning. In Earth Nation, therefore, all the people who aren’t destitute would make their homes out of something else - like wood. But that's not what you see in the depiction of Ba Sing Se. And in Water Nation, literally every bender can bend away the ice walls of your home, making them all the perfect thieves and assassins... so any Water Nation dweller would build their home out of something else for better security.

Comments:

u/ToaKraka [+43] https://i.imgur.com/OQGHleQ.png*

Because of the potential benefits of doing this, benders should go to where they would be in higher demand and the four nations would go out of their way to recruit benders from other nations, until ultimately all four nations have the same proportion of each Bender type. Bending is at least partially spiritual rather than genetic. If some isolated firebenders move to the Earth Kingdom, they'll be influenced by Earth spirits, and some or all of their bending children will be not firebenders but earthbenders. You can make a case that there should be a constant, gigantic stream of back-and-forth migration between all the nations to make up for the deaths of immigrant benders, or that each nation should have within itself persistent pockets of immigrant benders large enough to sustain their own spirits and cultures and therefore their own bending—but mass migration across huge distances doesn't seem very realistic for low-tech, agrarian societies, and it may be that even city-sized pockets of immigrants are insufficient to supplant the native spirits without violence done against the native environment by the invaders. It seems much easier to say: "Barring the wholesale destruction of Earth people, culture, and environment in the area (as executed in the Fire Nation colonies, and as attempted across the entire Earth Kingdom by Phoenix King Ozai), the spirits in the Earth Kingdom are powerful enough to convert most Earth Kingdom inhabitants to Earth affiliation, and all or nearly all benders born in the Earth Kingdom are earthbenders." Even if the nations were single element at the start of the story, the fire nation should want to impress benders of the other types into its own armed forces because of the tactical advantages doing so would offer. The propaganda behind the Hundred Years' War was centered around the Fire Nation's desire to impose "civilization" on the other, "inferior" nations. Admitting other nations' soldiers into its ranks (even as slave soldiers) would subvert the Fire Nation's own casus belli and reduce morale. The point of walls made of stone[/ice] is to provide secure, sturdy shelter, including protecting one’s belongings from getting stolen, or from being attacked. But in Earth[/Water] Nation, literally every bender is an earth[/water] bender, meaning any one of these people can treat your house like it’s rice paper. In Ba Sing Se, any thieves will be caught and severely punished by the Dai Li. I think it's safe to assume that similar (though less-draconian) measures are in place in other Earth Kingdom and Water Tribe cities and villages: Bending police are best-equipped to deal with bending criminals. (See also the ninja police in Naruto.)

u/Schuano [+15] *

Wait, Avatar called the Ba Sing Se secret police Dai Li?

That's badass because Dai Li was a real person. He was head of Chinese Intelligence and Secret Police during the 30's through WW2. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dai_Li)

u/vimefer [+18] *

Their calling their brainwashing camp "Lake Laogai" did not ring a bell ?

u/narmio [+2] *

Holy shit, I had no idea. That’s awesome.

u/luminarium [+3] *

mass migration across huge distances doesn't seem very realistic for low-tech, agrarian societies The setting isn't "low-tech, agrarian", considering the fire nation was already in the industrial revolution, and Legend of Korra / Republic City was only 2 generations later. Admitting other nations' soldiers into its ranks (even as slave soldiers) would subvert the Fire Nation's own casus belli and reduce morale. Once the fighting started, maybe, but not before. In Ba Sing Se, any thieves will be caught and severely punished by the Dai Li. I think it's safe to assume that similar (though less-draconian) measures are in place in other Earth Kingdom and Water Tribe cities and villages: Bending police are best-equipped to deal with bending criminals. We have police in the real world too, but that doesn't mean people leave their front doors unlocked.

u/Vampyricon [+16] *

The setting isn't "low-tech, agrarian", considering the fire nation was already in the industrial revolution, and Legend of Korra / Republic City was only 2 generations later. In TLA, only the Fire Nation was high tech. The others weren't. Afterwards, the tech would naturally be spread elsewhere.

u/LordSwedish [+8] Q Continuum*

We have police in the real world too, but that doesn't mean people leave their front doors unlocked. Yeah but remember that bending is still fairly rare. A bender usually won't be unemployed and as bending is still partially genetic, benders are often children of other benders and almost always require a bender to teach them how to actually use their powers. The chance of a bender coming along that can use their powers effectively and also has no connections/opportunities to make a better life for themselves legally is very low. People typically don't become criminals when placed in situations like this. There is corruption and people abusing their position but petty crimes and murders aren't common from benders, certainly not enough that building houses the hard way is worth it for the absolute majority of the population.

u/luminarium [-2] *

Yeah but remember that bending is still fairly rare. Yes, and neurosurgeons are also rare, but that doesn't stop them from practicing where they have the best opportunities.

u/LordSwedish [+12] Q Continuum*

That makes no sense and I'm fairly sure you know it. I was talking about the fact that people don't have to be worried about benders taking all their things, don't switch to a completely different argument. Also, if a neurosurgeon has a stable job and high income, they typically don't risk everything to use slow and highly infrequent transportation on the chance that they might make much more somewhere the people are prejudiced against him.

u/Bowbreaker [+3] Solitary Locust*

We have police in the real world too, but that doesn't mean people leave their front doors unlocked. Most people's homes use locks that locksmiths can easily open with their tools. Buying a house made of free materials that a local bender can just conjure for you and repair at will is bound to be cheaper than hiring an actual construction team in a world where they will be in low supply due to low demand.

u/lillarty [-2] *

Legend of Korra / Republic City was only 2 generations later It's my understanding that Korra is generally agreed to be an entirely different timeline. Without wish fulfillment isekai-tier technological development, there is simply no way (and no reason) for technology to develop the way that it did.

u/NorskDaedalus [+19] *

I wish it was. I really, really wish it was. ​ Unfortunately, it isn't actually so. Rather, technological development was simply far faster in the four nations than it was in our own world due to their particular brand of magic lending itself very well to industry. ​ First off, a major inhibitor in technological advancement has often been energy consumption, and progress stalls until new energy methods come along to allow for progress to continue (I've even heard it go so far as to have people day that 'Industry is just the story of humans getting better at making fire'). In the world of ATLA, there is no such inhibitor, as there's entire countries that can create fire out of nothing, who can power waterwheels by waving their hands, and move literal tons of raw materials with virtually no effort. As such, transport and energy difficulty are both vastly reduced with this system. In addition, at about the same time as their Industrial Revolution, Metalbending was also on the rise, which only further allows industry to move on at essentially light-speed. ​ So it is indeed possible that they could have had an Industrial Revolution taking them from circa 1800 to 1920 in 70 years- given all their advantages, though, I'm almost surprised they didn't get even further. I will still agree with you on the 'why' part, though. In a world with Benders, technology is largely redundant.

u/lillarty [+10] *

Perhaps I misrepresented my stance. If you are determined enough, it is possible to come up with how it would have happened. After all, munchkining powers is like half of what this sub does. The main issue I have is that it is entirely illogical for a world that relies entirely around very specific kinds of magic to develop precisely to 1920's Earth technology. Throughout the entirety of ATLA, every part of the technology was clearly developed from the perspective of a world that has these magical powers in it. Why, then, does Korra essentially throw out all of that effort and reduce everything down to "technology is identical to Earth, just we use Benders to generate power instead." If I didn't know better, I would interpret Korra as particularly lazy fanfiction, rather than the "official" continuation of the series.

u/LivefromPhoenix [+40] *

Any of them can go into your home and loot your belongings, or kill you in the middle of the night with little or no advance warning. This is true right now. The vast majority of doors are incredibly easy to lock-pick (without using superpowers). People could turn their home into Fort Knox and really protect themselves, but they don't because the cost of building a safer home is greater than the risk of some nutjob breaking in. I imagine it'd be the same in the Avatar world. Building an earth/ice home is much cheaper (and easier to repair) than building it out of some other material. The risk that some bender will go crazy or go on a stealing spree is always there, but for the majority of people it isn't a big enough concern to justify the cost of building a house some other way.

u/boomfarmer [+9] Trying to be helpful*

Lockpicks are a good example, but there's one better suited to an earthbender-in-mud-village or waterbender-in-ice-village comparison: drywall knives.

u/cthulhusleftnipple [+9] *

Or heck, you don't even need the skill to pick locks. Much as an earth bender could easily smash through a stone wall, ordinary people have the ability to smash through the large glass panes placed on virtually every single wall of every house. We don't need mystical abilities; a thrown rock already accomplishes the task handily.

u/nicholaslaux [+9] *

a thrown rock Earthbending

u/Watchful1 [+57] *

I think you're drastically underestimating the impact of tribalism and nationalism in primitive cultures. The vast majority of people in each nation would have a mindset of "other nations are inferior". An earthbender would think that anything a firebender could do, they could do better. You don't need to be a firebender to start a fire, or an earthbender to build a wall. Also, and in relation to your second point, benders were quite rare. There weren't enough of them to change entire industries. The defining attributes of the four nations were cultural, not what they could bend. I don't agree with your analogy of tradesmen. Every nation needs something akin to tailors, smiths, carpenters and masons, but the usefulness of the different benders is much less well defined.

u/Xtraordinaire [+14] Team Glimglam*

There aren't any primitive cultures among major nations of Avatar. There are highly sophisticated societies with millennia of written culture and developed economies. They are also fairly urbanized, and that comes with a certain degree of tolerance by the very nature of big cities. You inadvertently pinpointed the core issue with the worldbuilding here: civilian applications of magic were not thought out at all. The 4 bending schools were meant to represent earth martial arts. Yeah, there aren't many useful applications for them on Earth, because they aren't magic, they're just fancy ways of waving fists and pointy sticks. But transforming them into magic gives a ton of useful applications, and some of them were well defined, i.e. healing. Every kingdom's ruler and major noble would desperately want a water bender healer, and bigotry be damned. I'd say every nation would want an earth bender for an architect of their royal palace, but ironically earth's nation's architecture was the blandest of them all. edit: martial, not martian, duh

u/CoronaPollentia [+9] *

Honestly that's not super surprising. When your military force is correlated with ability to move absolute tons of stone, of course you're going to just make everything of huge hunks of earth and rock. It's a status display.

u/boomfarmer [+7] Trying to be helpful*

Yes, every nation would want waterbender healers for their government officials. But demand does not mean that there is a supply. At the time of the show, the Northern Water Tribe was rather xenophobic, and the Southern Water Tribe had no healers to spare. The Northern Tribe only allowed women to be healers, and kept close control of their women. Is it at all likely that a Water Tribe healer would be allowed to leave? And if they left without permission, doesn't it seem likely that they would be dragged back? An escapee would need to cunningly fake their death, and then make it to an employer, who would need to treat the healer with enough respect that they could trust the healer not to kill the patient out of spite. And with the amount of racism and xenophobic paranoia we see in the show, that seems unlikely.

u/Xtraordinaire [+0] Team Glimglam*

Is it at all likely that a Water Tribe healer would be allowed to leave? Yes. First, there were other waterbenders besides the polar tribes. Second, you're taking the world shown to us as a given, whereas OP (and me) is arguing that it's impossible for the world to come to that state. People trade and people love being paid. Healers would be showered in money and favors. There's incentive to regulate that, yes, but to prohibit? In any way, prohibition doesn't work, we know that very well from the real world examples. And if they left without permission, doesn't it seem likely that they would be dragged back? That's kinda hilarious considering that the show was about a group of runaways. No, it doesn't. At least not all of them. These women are not criminals, nobody would help the water tribe to enforce their customs. Sure, some unlucky runaways would be caught and brought back, but some won't.

u/boomfarmer [+5] Trying to be helpful*

People trade and people love being paid. In cultures willing to trade, in cultures that accept money. Southern Water tribe was too small for money. Northern Water Tribe didn't trade because they were closed off, because of xenophobia, which is an accepted our-world reason not to conduct trade with other countries. Swamp benders weren't known of outside the swamps. Prohibition doesn't work Which is why I went on to address the scenario of an escaped waterbender healer who does get hired. There's a trust deficit caused by cultural xenophobia and suspicion of outsiders, which would prevent use of waterbender healers by any country rich enough to hire them. I'm not ruling out:

• a mendicant waterbender moving from town to town, healing people.
• a mendicant waterbender moving from town to town, encountering King Bumi who has stubbed his toe, healing his toe, and then moving on What I am ruling out is:
• a mendicant waterbender moving from town to town, encountering King Bumi who has stubbed his toe, healing his toe, and then being invited to Omashu to live a life of luxury: the waterbender would sense a trap.
• a mendicant waterbender being acquired by the Dai Li for the purposes of healing the Earth King, because the waterbender would object so much that the Dai Li would be opposed to allowing this unruly outsider to enter the Earth King's presence.
• a mendicant waterbender being captured by the Fire Nation Army and being forced to heal Fire Nation soldiers: the Fire Nation Soldiers would anticipate that the Water Tribe healer would have been trained in the arts of war, and would sicken the soldiers in order to allow the Water Tribe healer's escape. Thus, the Fire Nation soldiers would not use the healer.

And if they left without permission, doesn't it seem likely that they would be dragged back?

No, it doesn't. At least not all of them. These women are not criminals, nobody would help the water tribe to enforce their customs. Sure, some unlucky runaways would be caught and brought back, but some won't. The waterbenders would pursue their own escapees, as waterbending healers are an important natural resource and a force multiplier that they'd want to deny to the Fire Nation or other outsiders.

And if they left without permission, doesn't it seem likely that they would be dragged back?

That's kinda hilarious considering that the show was about a group of runaways. Aang is the Avatar; his spiritual mandate is to wander the world, solving problems. In the plot of the show, good people help him on his quest and bad people restrain him. As we are shown in the show, the Avatar has authority that in many cases transcends national authorities. Katara and Sokka aren't runaways; they're his escorts. Zuko is in exile. The only member of Team Avatar that is an actual runaway is Toph, and she is tracked down and captured at least once by representatives of her parents.

u/Xtraordinaire [+1] Team Glimglam*

In cultures willing to trade, in cultures that accept money. Southern Water tribe was too small for money. If they have no money does that mean they can't be paid in tropical fruits? Everyone needs something, trade precludes currency. We know that even primitive tribes facilitate trade. a mendicant waterbender moving from town to town, encountering King Bumi who has stubbed his toe, healing his toe, and then being invited to Omashu to live a life of luxury: the waterbender would sense a trap. What trap, exactly? If one can offer unique and valuable services that are in demand, they can expect the market to react accordingly. It is common knowledge that King Bumi is an idiot who stubs his toe every week, and has desired to hire a healer on several occasions. And if he has a reputation of treating his other hires fairly, why hiring a healer would be any different? a mendicant waterbender being captured by the Fire Nation Army and being forced to heal Fire Nation soldiers: the Fire Nation Soldiers would anticipate that the Water Tribe healer would have been trained in the arts of war, and would sicken the soldiers in order to allow the Water Tribe healer's escape. Thus, the Fire Nation soldiers would not use the healer. That's a niche case. Okay, a water tribesman won't collaborate with the fire nazi, or the Dai Li, because unlike King Bumi these guys don't have a good reputation. But the point is, fire people aren't in nazi mode perpetually. It's a relatively short period of their history. I mean, come on, Iroh was fully willing to settle down in an earth city serving the best tea in the world, and only for narrative reasons he didn't. So why a water mage would be different? Aang is the Avatar; his spiritual mandate is to wander the world, solving problems. In the plot of the show, good people help him on his quest and bad people restrain him. How is this fundamentally different from a healer? She helps people of all tribes. Good people aid her, bad people want to capture her? Katara and Sokka aren't runaways; they're his escorts. Zuko is in exile. They are enemies of the fire state, being on the run for the entirety of the show. Zuko was in exile but later defected and became a criminal in the eyes of the fire state AFAIR. A healer on the run won't be in such a dire situation.

u/CouteauBleu [+2] We are the Empire.*

By that logic, couldn't you say "Every king and noble in medieval Europe would want an Arab doctor"? And yet I'm pretty sure Islamic countries' medicine has been immensely superior to European medicine for centuries. I think it's not implausible that cultural segregation in Avatar's world would be that strong.

u/ProfessorPhi [+6] *

Are we including Korra in this as canon (I do!!), because i think it supports OP in many ways. Given how all the characters go through DBZ style powerups (lighting and metal bending is now common) and we see the rebirth of all the legendary bending so much so that it's common place, I like to attribute this to the benders coming together and learning from each other. No longer an intellectually stale artform, I'd argue that lightning bending is a thing from merging air and fire (lack of control over power is a thing of air and Iroh), lava bending is from fire and earth as an example (control and unleashing of power)

Also, and in relation to your second point, benders were quite rare. There weren't enough of them to change entire industries. In Korra when you're producing electricity from fire benders I feel like that's definitely not the case any longer and Republic City is an example of what OP is arguing for. Even before the spirit season, we saw this as a thing, reminding me of https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2011-07-13 defining attributes of the four nations were cultural Mako and Bolin are brothers yet one's a firebender and the other is an earth bender. I can't believe that two brothers who are so close would have such a different culture. Not to mention that Katara and Aang's kids developed Water and Air (and nothing) despite having a very mixed cultural upbringing. I'd argue culture is a thing of societies and two children from the same family wouldn't develop so differently if it was cultural. This implies genetic to me (though not quite your point), and raises a question of causation vs correlation. Are their personalities influenced by the type of bending they can do or the other way around (Meelo being an air bender raises a few questions) Finally, Korra the avatar was bending multiple types of elements as a child (besides air) Also, and in relation to your second point, benders were quite rare The main characters only had one non-bender which gives us a very skewed idea of what the proportions are. Combine this with all the powerful recurring characters being benders, you get a very skewed sense of the world, either it's awfully unfair to non-benders (a la Amon) or most people are benders and the characters are representative of the underlying population. Besides Asami, the non-benders are mostly comic relief (think Sokka, Bhumi (aang's kid), the crazy merchant in Korra), so you can see how this is a very reasonable reading that bending is actually quite common. We have no explicit statistics nor do we see an inherent class system (outside of Amon's season) to read otherwise.

u/boomfarmer [+10] Trying to be helpful*

Mako and Bolin are brothers yet one's a firebender and the other is an earth bender. They're born in Republic City, where cultures and therefore spirits are intermingled, to parents of different Nations. Every single factor that might determine bending is set awry here, so I'm not sure that they're a good example of bending heritance outside of their example. Katara/Aang is more of the same.

u/ProfessorPhi [+1] *

It is the only place with mixed heritage, so there is almost no way to compare otherwise. Furthermore, Tenzin only has air bender kids as a counterpoint (if culture was so important, why doesn't one of his kids become a waterbender like grandma?). I'd also say culture within one family is a lot closer than in a city and shouldn't give rise to two very different bending types.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+9] Father of Learning*

(if culture was so important, why doesn't one of his kids become a waterbender like grandma?) Because they were raised exclusively in super-intense monk-like airbending culture their entire lives? They don't live in republic city, they live on an island inside republic city

u/Radix2309 [+1] *

Probably because the bending genes occupy the same space. All siblings with different bending abilities have 2 parents with different bending abilities.

u/Papa-Walrus [+5] *

Mako and Bolin are brothers yet one's a firebender and the other is an earth bender. I can't believe that two brothers who are so close would have such a different culture. Not to mention that Katara and Aang's kids developed Water and Air (and nothing) despite having a very mixed cultural upbringing. I'd argue culture is a thing of societies and two children from the same family wouldn't develop so differently if it was cultural. This implies genetic to me (though not quite your point), and raises a question of causation vs correlation. Are their personalities influenced by the type of bending they can do or the other way around (Meelo being an air bender raises a few questions) I think you've got his point backwards. His point was not that certain cultures produce certain benders. His point was that the nations/benders don't intermingle due to the differences in culture. I don't know how much of Korra you've watched, so spoilers for that ahead. The nations started out as cities/alliances of cities, with each being on the back of a lion-turtle that provided a certain kind of bending. At this point in the history, there was no intermingling due to the general danger of travelling as well as (iirc) prominent xenophobia. By the time that intermingling became viable, each nation/culture had been shaped by the bending that they had available/their location in the world. So we got the nomadic Air people, tribal water people, etc. It's not difficult to imagine that, until somebody went out of their way to found a city that was basically an embassy for every nation, they stayed largely separate because of their cultural/philosophical/etc. boundaries.

u/luminarium [+1] *

in primitive cultures. Considering the fire nation was already in the industrial revolution, and Legend of Korra / Republic City was only 2 generations later, I would hardly call their culture primitive. but the usefulness of the different benders is much less well defined. How so? They seem very distinctly useful to me.

u/tjhance [+15] *

the fire nation was in the industrial revolution, yes, and it was also in the middle of, well, "sharing" its fire-bending powers in the world by colonizing everything. There are, in fact, fire nation colonies in the earth kingdom. Meanwhile the airbenders are already wiped out; there are almost no water benders in the southern water tribe, and the northern water tribe is turtled up to stay out of the war. And it's not like anybody is going to move to the fire nation and start selling their bending services.

u/luminarium [+1] *

My point was they should have going where their services would be valuable (in the peacetime before the war).

u/LordSwedish [+11] Q Continuum*

But that was before the industrial revolution had properly taken hold in the Fire Nation. There was only a couple of generations of industrialising before the war started and before that the only mode of transportation were normal boats and trying to get a bunch of monks to take an interest in commercial enterprises.

u/luminarium [+0] *

But that was before the industrial revolution had properly taken hold in the Fire Nation. Doesn't matter, trade with other nations / immigration to other nations was a thing even before the industrial revolution.

u/Watchful1 [+13] *

You can't have it both ways. Either we're talking about the time before the hundred years war, which was well before the start of the industrialization of the fire nation, or after it when the political landscape is vastly different. Benders aren't useful because they are rare. And powerful benders are even more rare. The show obviously focus' on lots of characters who are benders, but I think it's made obvious that they are a relatively tiny minority. There might be plenty of benders in the few big cities in the world, but most people are farmers in tiny villages that might have one or two benders. Aside from fighting, there's not much at all that benders can do that a handful of men can't accomplish with a days work. And there are a lot more of those groups of men than benders. It's no surprise that the economy of the world would be based on them. That, combined with the tribalism that comes from generations of families living in one place, means people are far more likely to focus their efforts on their home village rather than traveling and seeking their fortune in the wider world. Rationalism as a genre is usually focused on an individual or small group due to the simple fact that most people aren't rational. In fact, the average peasant is probably pretty stupid. Religion, mysticism, tribalism, heck, most war in general, isn't rational, but they are all staples of most fictional worlds histories. You can't treat the entire world as main characters.

u/luminarium [+0] *

You can't have it both ways. Either we're talking about the time before the hundred years war, which was well before the start of the industrialization of the fire nation, or after it when the political landscape is vastly different. I was talking about before the war, only. Benders aren't useful because they are rare. LOL "Neurosurgeons aren't useful because they are rare".

u/Watchful1 [+6] *

Then why did you bring up the industrialization of the fire nation? Flashback scenes to the previous avatar clearly show that the industrial revolution of the fire nation is a recent development. You only need one neurosurgeon per tens of thousands of people since problems that can only be solved by a neurosurgeon are very rare. Few problems can only be solved by a bender and there aren't enough of them to make a meaningful difference in a widespread economy.

u/None [+11] *

thinks Korra's tech is canon I'll pass on this. Bryke went out of their way in the director's commentary to mention that the aesthetic of Korra was strictly rule-of-cool and not exactly thought out. (I mean think about it, metal-bending mechs, really?) If I wrote fanfiction of it, I would work it in because it was interesting and 1920's style settings are hard to come by, but not because it was rational. Likewise, seeing as knowledge of electricity in the original canon is nonexistent, I would also ignore schizo tech in the first Avatar that was used for a one-off gag. Ba Sing Se might have plumbing, but it probably doesn't have toilets. The fire nation was only early industrial revolution with coal and steam: fire nation ships have what look like gas lamps in them instead of electric lighting; in most shots fire nation residential buildings are only two to five stories tall, this is consistent for every nation except the air nomads, who, ironically, seemed to be the only ones to build primarily with stone. (Even Ba Sing Se seems to be mostly wood, at least in the lower-class areas - it's only Omashu that uses stone heavily in both its architecture and infrastructure.) The Earth Kingdom is very clearly a set of at least two kingdoms, because we know both Kuei (in Ba Sing Se) and Bumi (in Omashu) exist. There might be some kind of hierarchy here that we don't get to see, but it's safe to say they're probably feudal. The fact that bending doesn't seem to be used to great effect in construction in the biggest city in the Earth Kingdom leads me to believe that there just aren't the same proportion of Earth benders to civilian as there are, say, water benders to civilian. In fact, the most non-benders we see in a given place are in the Fire Nation and the Earth Kingdom, and the most benders we see are in the Air Temples during the Aang's flashbacks. I'd put good odds on the civilizing factor of large societies dampening the influence of spirits or something of that nature. Also: How so? They seem very distinctly useful to me. The usefulness of benders is tough to pin down because most of them are conscripted into the military. It's obvious that at least some earth benders push carts for a living, but every available water bender at the north pole is probably serving in their army or as a healer. The same is probably true of the fire nation. And I can't really see any industrial applications for air bending. I don't buy the whole conceit in Korra that lightning-benders could generate enough energy in electricity to meet even a fraction of the demands of an industrial society; the same should hold true for fire bending to fuel a steam engine or water bending to push a turbine - it might be good enough for transportation, like how the fire nation uses their hot air balloons, but probably not for industry. Think rowing a boat versus hand cranking a shaft to generate electricity. Even if it was, benders require years of training and probably don't enjoy monotony, in addition to being rare, so you'd have to pay them tons of money. Which is why the fire nation was enslaving earth benders to mine coal for them rather than just fueling their growing economy with their fists and sheer rage.

u/TDaltonC [+30] *

Just to do the apologetics: For point 1, that does eventually happen in Republic City. There are a few things that make that mixing slow. (1) transportation is expensive, (2) people are really racists, (3) the dominate political paradigm is not production focused, is a blood and soil nationalism, (4) bender abilities are not just a matter of birth; you also need training and aculturation. For point 2, that just means that construction costs are a bigger concern than assassination. From a rational fantasy perspective the real problem with Avatar world is the thermodynamics. Where do they get all of that free work?

u/alexanderwales [+43] Time flies like an arrow*

From a rational fantasy perspective the real problem with Avatar world is the thermodynamics. Where do they get all of that free work? I've never really liked this criticism/observation (which applies to a lot of settings), since the answer isn't actually that important within the content of the setting. You seem to get more power than you put in, but that doesn't really change the setting much, especially if the (seeming) gains are minor and/or rare. There are hundreds of ways to patch thermodynamics in such a way that the patches would be "invisible" to people of the tech level in Avatar and/or non-exploitable, and it wouldn't have to have an impact on the setting or plot.

u/InfernoVulpix [+30] *

Even beyond patching it out, it's not even hard to justify actual free energy. If the objection is that free energy makes the rules of our universe freak out, it's simple to picture our universe's rules and models, and add a framework on top of it that adds or subtracts energy as it pleases. Free energy and defeating entropy are only relevant problems trillions of years from now, as much as they are big problems. For all relevant purposes, stuff like "Why does the universe care about human brains thinking certain thoughts" is much more compelling than "How can magic possibly create free energy?"

u/Trips-Over-Tail [+23] Death of Crabs*

Probably from the Spirit World, which is extremely energy-rich. Varrick got hold of some spirit vines in Korra and managed to split the spiriton using the Varri-effect, generating several million Varricks of raw power. With the help of Zhu Li he single-handedly replicated both the CP-1 and the Manhattan Project on a train carriage using that stuff.

u/Vampyricon [+12] *

When in doubt, blame the Spirit World.

u/Trips-Over-Tail [+14] Death of Crabs*

When in doubt blame Zhu Li.

u/Vampyricon [+9] *

Do the thing!

u/Radix2309 [+1] *

I imagine the free work is from Spirit power or something. But that raises further questions. Is the Spirit world infinite in resources?

u/luminarium [-3] *

(1) transportation is expensive, They have hang gliders, flying bison and airships, how expensive is transportation really? (2) people are really racists, They all seem to be the same race though. (3) the dominate political paradigm is not production focused, is a blood and soil nationalism, This was true in medieval times but medieval times still had merchants and craftsmen going from place to place. (4) bender abilities are not just a matter of birth; you also need training and aculturation. Same is true for all professions. bigger concern than assassination. Maybe, but a bigger concern than (rampant) theft?

u/tjhance [+18] *

They have hang gliders, flying bison and airships, how expensive is transportation really? Only airbenders can use hang gliders, and air bison are probably pretty rare. I guess that doesn't stop airbenders from selling their services (although, interestingly, we don't know for certain that they didn't before they were wiped out). Also, airships weren't even invented until after the series had started. They all seem to be the same race though. That's not really true (water tribe has darker skin) but here "racism" is more about culture, not race.

u/Izeinwinter [+9] *

The airbenders selling their services as couriers would explain a lot about how they avoided being the target of violence (until it stopped working) people really do not like it when you mess with the mail.

u/CeruleanTresses [+17] *

They all seem to be the same race though. Call it nationalism then, I guess? There is bigotry going on, is the point.

u/boomfarmer [+10] Trying to be helpful*

They all seem to be the same race though. Paraphrasing the Avatar Wiki, the different Nations are based on the following cultures:

• Water Tribe: Inuit and Yupik, with aspects of Polynesian, Australian Aboriginal, Native American, and Venetian cultures and designs
• Earth Kingdom: China, with a bit of Korea on the borders
• Fire Nation: China, Japan, and Southeast Asia, set in Icelandic geography
• Air nomads: Tibet, Sri Lanka, and the Hindu portions of India To which I ask: are the cited cultures all of the same race? What is race? Is your observation here mainly about skin color? And does a world in which spirits determine the magical powers of babies seem like a world that must follow Earth's rules for melanin distribution?

u/luminarium [+1] *

Even if they were of different ethnicities (which is what you're getting at here), it doesn't actually matter. Westerners were trading with China after all, because there was money to be had. Only reason the Westerners took so long to do so was because the trip was so long (and so very risky). But from the anime, I don't get the impression of the four nations being all that far apart from each other.

u/boomfarmer [+4] Trying to be helpful*

Nah, here I'm just addressing the assertion that they were all of the same race.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+1] Father of Learning*

We see the entire world from the back of a giant bison that flies faster than a steam ship, so I don't think our impressions are unbiased

u/sicutumbo [+9] *

Maybe, but a bigger concern than (rampant) theft? I think something you're not considering is that while wooden walls might make theft from benders more difficult, it doesn't actually stop them. An earthbender can knock down a wooden wall, and a waterbender can slice through one. If you're poor, would you prioritize defending against rare benders when that defense is more costly, not particularly effective, and destroyed if they damage it sufficiently, or would you go for walls that can be raised and repaired in seconds and do the normal job of walls as well? The comparative costs and advantages don't make sense, especially if you don't have many valuables to steal in the first place. I think theft would also be less common, since anyone you find in their home could kill or ensnare or with barely a second's notice, including the elderly. If your grandma never leaves the house, which would be common in rural/poor societies, a thief can't risk that they're a bender. These aren't the same concerns rich people would have, but they could also have wood or steel surrounded by walls of earth/water that can be easily rearranged and repaired. Also, since moving earth and ice would be so trivial to anyone who can afford to hire a bender, hiding your valuable possessions in underground vaults that are difficult to find would be easy. Toph is unique in being able to sense the shape of the earth around her, even if it's a teachable skill, so hiding valuables could be done fairly simply. If a thief wanted to get at said valuables, they would need to rip up the entire floor, which could take time and create noise to alert any guards or neighbors.

u/CeruleanTresses [+12] *

Adding to what you've said--suppose you're one of like, three benders in some little town. Are you going to melt a hole in an old lady's house to steal her shit? Of course not, because everyone would almost immediately figure out it was you.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+4] Father of Learning*

IT COULD HAVE BEEN A NATURAL LIGHTNING STRIKE!
Remember the saying, people! Lightning always strikes 8 times!

u/sicutumbo [+11] *

"A mudslide? At this time of year, in this part of the country, localized entirely within this house?"

u/callmesalticidae [+1] writes worldbuilding books*

“May I see it?”

u/luminarium [+0] *

it doesn't actually stop them. True, but neither do locks in the real world. The key is sufficient discouragement.

u/Bowbreaker [+3] Solitary Locust*

They have hang gliders, flying bison and airships, how expensive is transportation really? Humans have hang gliders. Could you imagine using one to commute? Only a well trained air bender can use them that effectively, and most air bender belong to monastic orders. Flying bisons are a rare species. Airships are a relatively new invention by the Fire Nation. On top of that they are constructed with the ability to fire bend in mind. They all seem to be the same race though. If "their skin and eye size seems similar to each other" is your argument for why there shouldn't be much racism then you really know nothing about racism. Look at Europe for all of its history before WWII. Look at various modern age genocides across the world. Black vs White racism only became a thing when Europeans decided to colonize and needed excuses for their behavior. Other than that it is a pure mental construction, as you can see by the fact that someone who has 3/4 English and 1/4 Congolese ancestry is considered a different race from an English person more so than a half Italian half Polish dude would be. This was true in medieval times but medieval times still had merchants and craftsmen going from place to place. In medieval times Europe wasn't doing so well when it came to science and medicine. And yet you didn't have Arab doctors travelling all over the place in high enough numbers to be noticed. Maybe, but a bigger concern than (rampant) theft? Motion sensor alarms are a relatively new thing. Lockpicking is not. Yet people used simple locks on their doors for centuries.

u/Tinfoil_Haberdashery [+9] *

I'm trying to think of equivalent situations in real life. The first thing that springs to mind is the Chinese embargo on silkworms. They managed to keep an incredibly valuable resource from falling into the hands of other cultures for a surprisingly long time. Of course, that only lasted so long, and, subtle as silk moth eggs are, they're easier to spot than bending ability. What about actual prodigious abilities? There are definite hotspots. The fastest runners in the world disproportionately have their origins in a single tribe in Kenya, the Kalenjin. A startling number of the scientists who worked on the development of the Atomic bomb attended the same high school in Budapest. An astonishing proportion of the greatest motorsport drivers in the world are Finnish. While there's undoubtedly an innate hereditary component in the speed and endurance of the Kalenjin runners, they're not particularly genetically distinct from their less exceptional countrymen. It's therefore hypothesized that what's actually exceptional is their culturally instilled pain tolerance, engendered or at least exemplified by their absolutely brutal coming-of-age rituals. If the Ashkenazim are innately more intelligent than anybody else (and all those Hungarian-highschoolers-turned-nuclear-physicists were Ashkenazim), it's hard to ignore that this seems to come at a price; they're undeniably more prone to genetic disorders--and indeed, the carriers for the recessive genes that cause some of these disorders may correlate with higher I.Q. Another, more solid example of genetic mixed-blessings is sickle-cell anemia. Those who carry recessive genes for sickle-cell but don't have the double-dose necessary to express the disease are more resistant to malaria than people who have no genetic markers at all. Finally, Finnish drivers may be so over-represented in international motorsports because Finland is a very dangerous place to drive. It's characterized by icy, hilly, wooded rural roads that are quite treacherous, and Finland has very high standards for licensing drivers. So, what might be some reasons for regional differences in ability that wouldn't promote diffusion into a broader population? With the Kalenjin, it appears to be culturally-specific rituals that carry a high enough cost not to be picked up by outsiders--the monastic asceticism and childhood tattooing of air-benders might be somewhat equivalent. Congenital abilities coupled with costly drawbacks might only persist in areas where the environment mandates those abilities-- malaria resistance in one portion of the population at the cost of sickle-cell anemia in another portion is unlikely to be a trait that would persist for long outside of malaria-plagued regions. The famed Ashkenazi intelligence may be related to either of these factors, or both; a costly in-group cultural focus on literacy or a genetic propensity for intelligence that comes at the price of higher rates of genetic disorders--either way, the anomaly is unlikely to persist outside of the insular community that puts an unusually high value on intelligence. Also worth considering--this intelligence was eschewed by industrial nations that really needed it--the Germans and the Soviets--for purely cultural reasons. Finally, the Finnish ability to drive seems to be engendered solely by the necessity of their environment, though I'm not familiar with much anthropological study of the subject. Of course, all of these abilities are far less dramatic than "Can you casually hurl boulders around or conjur flames from thin air with a flick of the wrist, Y/N?" But I think it's reasonable to imagine that such factors could play into an Avatar-like culturescape. To my knowledge, we've never seen a avaricious airbender; the cultural asceticism necessary to develop airbending might not be compatible with a personality that finds contentment stoking blast furnaces in a Fire Nation factory. Waterbending seems only to manifest in regions where it's necessary for survival--polar ice caps and swamps. Maybe a single recessive gene for waterbending yields Katara, but if you get a double-dose you end up with someone with horrible mental deficiencies like Sokka? The most obvious explanation for the heterogeneity of firebending is old-fashioned xenophobia. This could explain why other bending styles aren't pursued within that culture and why other nations seem to lack the genetic basis for cultivating that skill. Sure, the other bending techniques might've been useful, but costly cultural signaling is an astonishingly powerful force. As far as we can tell, the Norse settlers of Greenland didn't eat fish, presumably because of cultural taboos because no other reason seems sufficiently insane. As to your point on walls...didn't a lot of Asian cultures use rice paper as a major construction material, just because it was cheap? I'm pretty sure most medieval peasants in Europe didn't have locking doors. Come to think of it, my back door is made primarily of glass, and I (a rank amateur) can pick most residential locks in under 30 seconds. Criminals aren't deterred by the actual robustness of building materials. They're deterred by the social consequences of crime. Likewise, building materials aren't selected for their ability to keep other people out; they're chosen for their price, resistance to the elements and other functional considerations.

u/CouteauBleu [+7] We are the Empire.*

but if you get a double-dose you end up with someone with horrible mental deficiencies like Sokka? :( That really wasn't called for. Sokka is the best.

u/xachariah [+17] *

1. Bender Homogeneity of Nations People do not work like that. Look up how many groups people lived in other nations back in 1000 AD on Earth.
   How many communities of Europeans took their knowledge of steel and make a killing in sub-saharan Africa? Or how many groups of Asians made a living off their wood block printing in Europe? How many Polynesians went and showed up the Vikings on how to fish? Nations were homogeneous before the modern world.
   2. Walls Spoiler Alert: You likely live in a building that any person can break in to in less than 30 seconds and kill you while you sleep. The only thing keeping you alive is your society. Avatar's societies did not need protection from each other. The community itself was the protection, as it has been for the majority of human history. Any guesses on how often the Native Americans locked their doors?

u/luminarium [+1] *

Look up how many groups people lived in other nations back in 1000 AD on Earth. They don't have to be other 'groups'. I bet ya craftsmen of all types were in all nations back in 1000 AD. Likewise there should be benders of all types in all nations, they're literally just another profession. The community itself was the protection, as it has been for the majority of human history. This is true for small, tribal/village communities of no more than 200 people. But if you lived in a city (which Ba Sing Se clearly was) and you don't have at least something to discourage people from breaking in (like a lock), you're just asking to get stolen from.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+2] Father of Learning*

This is true for small, tribal/village communities of no more than 200 people. But if you lived in a city (which Ba Sing Se clearly was) and you don't have at least something to discourage people from breaking in (like a lock), you're just asking to get stolen from. Ba Sing Se is the exception rather than the rule, and their discouragement is the brainwashing torturing disappear-you-in-the-middle-of-the-night Dai Li. Aside from them and Omashu it seems to all be small towns of no more than 200 people.
Likewise there should be benders of all types in all nations, they're literally just another profession. Except it's not, it's explicitly spiritual and influenced by the surrounding culture. If you're a super spiritual person, how likely are you to leave your home environment to make more money?

u/tjhance [+7] *

re: point 2, or maybe people just build houses out of the materials that their nation can bend because... that makes it really easy to build houses, you know? Also, it doesn't really matter if your house is made of earth or not when an earth bender can just chuck giant rocks at it, or wreck havoc on the very ground it's built on. All that being said... are you even correct that people are building houses out of earth or rock? I just skimmed through the City of Walls and Secrets episode, and a lot of the walls in Ba Sing Se look wooden to me. Also, the water nation does has some igloos, but they seem to mostly use tents.

u/luminarium [-3] *

that makes it really easy to build houses, you know? Of course it does, but it also makes it really easy to lose all your possessions. it doesn't really matter if your house is made of earth or not when an earth bender can just chuck giant rocks at it, or wreck havoc on the very ground it's built on. Yes but that would be very noticeable, because of all that noise. Not so with earth bending away the walls (which allows you to steal and murder in the middle of the night). and a lot of the walls in Ba Sing Se look wooden to me. Really?

u/tjhance [+6] *

Really? Er, yeah. The tea shop is clearly wooden, for example. https://imgur.com/a/D8aaVvw

u/imguralbumbot [+1] *

^(Hi, I'm a bot for linking direct images of albums with only 1 image) https://i.imgur.com/wtHgkcw.jpg ^^Source ^^| ^^Why? ^^| ^^Creator ^^| ^^ignoreme ^^| ^^deletthis

u/luminarium [-1] *

Ah ok, didn't know that!

u/None [+5] *

Only got time for a new nitpicks. Given that both Water Tribes in the show live at the poles, they have no need for earth benders. In their world, ice already is a lasting, durable material that they have perfect control over, and any earth is buried so deep under the ice, that it is never seen. Immigration on the levels you are speaking of here, is also probably incredibly difficult for people at the start of the series. Most people, benders or not, are simple farmers living in simple cities. Mass transport simply doesn't exist, and the only people with good ships or technology are the Fire Nation. In fact the Fire Nation was poised to use their tech to usher in a new age of movement and cultural blending... But they choose to use it to go to war with the world instead, so we don't get to see that happen. Of course oncre the war is over, the presence of all that technology makes cultural blending much easier... And that's what Legend of Korra is about.

u/luminarium [+0] *

they have no need for earth benders They'd be very useful for mining for raw material such as metals. And ice is very fragile compared to stone. Mass transport simply doesn't exist Neither did it exist in medieval times, but given the massive potential to turn a profit, people would have underwent the journey. And don't forget that once a single firebender goes to the earth kingdom, he'd have massive incentive (tuition fees) to teach firebending to others there. So you don't actually need much transportation.

u/None [+2] *

But who says that one single firebender would be able to teach benders in the Earth Kingdom how to firebend? Where would that person find students? All the new, young firebenders would be born back in the Fire Nation, where they would probably have access to much better tutors, and all of the benders born in the Earth Kingdom, would be Earth Benders. The original canon is a bit fuzy on this regard, when it comes to whether bending is spiritual or genetic, or some mix of the both, but even in Legend of Korra where significant mixing has occurred, people who can firebend still have at least one firebending/fire nation parent. Bending isn't just a skill one can learn, with elements just being trades (which is where the original metaphor fails). One's ability to bend, and the element one bends, are both innate qualities, that cannot be changed (which is what makes the Avatar so special; only they can bend more than one element). Also, my main point is that, from what we see from the Poles in canon, it is extremely hard to find any earth. In fact, from what we have seen, there might not be any Earth there at all; from what I remember from the show (and Korra) there are ice tunnels and caverns that go significantly deep underground. The only Earth I remember ever seeing was in the spirit gardens which, being spirit gardens, could just have been magical areas created by the spirits, for the spirits. It seems likely that the poles in Avatar are both like the North Pole in our world; two floating masses of ice, with no actual rock or stone underneath. And also, why would a society of primarily water-benders want earthen walls, instead of ice ones, when they live in a society where ice never melts, and they can use their water bending to repair ice walls a lot easier than they could earthen ones? Earthen walls may be sturdier, but given how easily a single water bender can manipulate their ice walls to create stairs, doors, pathways, etc... is probably a lot less economic for a society's whose main concern is foreign invaders, rather than internal strife. And if bending is at least semi-spiritual (as it is heavily implied to be in canon, and by the creators comments after the fact), most earth benders would greatly dislike living in a place so acutely cut of from their element. At least for Earth - Water Tribe transitions, I think there are too many barriers in place to make that any kind of profitable, especially considering the fact that there might not be any earth to bend at any of the poles in the Avatar universe, and that the Water Tribe doesn't really have any use for earth-benders when it comes to construction. I think the original Trade metaphor has muddied the waters a lot. 1 fire-bender, or water-bender, or earth-bender, couldn't move to a new nation, and open a school teaching their style of bending and start a business and create a whole new industry. Not only would they have to bring with them a lot of their country men, in order to preserve the genetic aspect of their bending (so that it passes on), they would also have to transplant significant amounts of their culture as well, in order to make certain those kids born with the potential to become benders, actually become benders. And at this point, the leadership of wherever hey are moving to might start seeing this endeavor less like a business venture, and more like a foreign power trying to set up a colony. Plus benders are actually quite rare in this setting, to the point where, in the original canon, a semi-average sized village might only have one or two, and it was actually plausible for the Fire Nation, in acts of war, to try and exterminate/round up all the benders in an area to try and kill off the ability. So you would need a lot of transportation (to transplant enough people to start a self-sustaining micro-culture), and a whole lot of incentive to convince highly spiritual people (benders), to leave a place immersed in their culture and spirituality, and go somewhere foreign. And I argue that that kind of transport technology was only created by the Fire Nation... right before they went to war. And that kind of incentive, was only created by Aang when he, as the Avatar, beat the Fire Lord, and started campaigning for the need for the nations to come together, creating Republic City.

u/callmesalticidae [+1] writes worldbuilding books*

How is the firebender going to teach firebending to people who aren’t capable of learning it? You’re like the guy who asks why the Jedi don’t teach everyone how to use the Force, except there are four flavors of Force here and only one person at any given time can use all of them. Earthbenders can’t learn how to bend fire, water, or air. Non-benders can’t learn how to bend anything at all: bending is something you’ve got or you don’t, and if you have it then it’s a matter of learning how to use it well, just like you can teach running to a person who has legs but you can’t teach “has legs” to someone who doesn’t have legs.

u/EthanCC [+8] *

Anyone with a power tool or training in "lock-pick bending" can "bend" the lock off your door; social norms have more of a role in preventing crime than the actual difficulty of committing a crime.

u/luminarium [+1] *

Not really. That's why we have locks.

u/EthanCC [+2] *

...it's not hard to break open a lock. I do the credit card trick all the time when I get locked out.

https://www.wikihow.com/Open-a-Locked-Door

https://www.wikihow.com/Break-a-Lock

u/TheColourOfHeartache [+6] *

One easy solution would be to make bending a matter of culture, or even geography. If two fire benders move to the Earth nation and their kids are raised surrounded by Earth nation culture, they'd be Earth benders not fire benders. So you'd still see stuff like rulers paying a lot for a water bender healer to come around, but by the time of the show a large war would have resulted in the borders going back up and each nation reverting to a single style. You could also get some cool ideas with Republic City being a culture capable of producing any type of Bender, but it's got a notably lower proportion of benders to any other nation.

u/Vampyricon [+1] *

You could also get some cool ideas with Republic City being a culture capable of producing any type of Bender, but it's got a notably lower proportion of benders to any other nation. But then that would mean there is some magical ontological realness to a nation, and we haven't seen any evidence of that. I don't think we've seen a notably lower proportion of benders in the UR either.

u/luminarium [+0] *

One easy solution would be Wait are you like just trying to make up rationalizations for the way things are in Avatar?

u/TheColourOfHeartache [+5] *

Nope. Trying to make up ways the Avatar setting could be made more coherent while keeping the core elements like four elemental nations.

u/None [+3] *

To draw an analogy, imagine you had four nations: Tailor Nation, Smith Nation, Carpenter Nation and Mason Nation, with each nation populated solely by craftsmen of the namesake of the nation (ie all the tailors in the world are in Tailor Nation, etc). Bad analogy because the benders aren't the sole population of each nation, the majority aren't benders. In this kind of world, Tailor Nation would have a desperate need for smiths, carpenters, and masons; and similarly for the other nations. e.g. For Tailor Nation to get a Smith would be of enormous economic benefit to the nation - they'll finally be able to smith tools! The essentially functions of a national economy do not need benders to function. Farmers hoe fields scribes write taxes without them. You're also completely ignoring how bending is not a solely practical function. It is a spiritual art and practice native to each culture. A firebender and non firebender of the fire nation have much more in common than a fire bender and any other bender. Why would a fire bender ever want to leave and offer his services to the other nations? But in Earth Nation, literally every bender is an earth bender, meaning any one of these people can treat your house like it’s rice paper. Any of them can go into your home and loot your belongings, or kill you in the middle of the night with little or no advance warning. So can regular thieves, doors and windows aren't impenetrable.

u/luminarium [+1] *

Bad analogy because the benders aren't the sole population of each nation, the majority aren't benders. And craftsmen aren't the majority of a population either. bending is not a solely practical function So? You can use it to earn money, more if you go where there aren't a lot of similar benders. A firebender and non firebender of the fire nation have much more in common than a fire bender and any other bender. On what grounds? And does it even matter? Why would a fire bender ever want to leave and offer his services to the other nations? Money? So can regular thieves, doors and windows aren't impenetrable. Yes but we still have locks for a reason.

u/None [+3] *

And craftsmen aren't the majority of a population either.

Yes, they aren't, so neither the setting nor the real world is like your analogy.

So? You can use it to earn money, more if you go where there aren't a lot of similar benders. Where are the opportunities where other nations would hire other benders? On what grounds? And does it even matter? Cultural grounds, maybe you forgot culture existed on your sixteenth rereading of Bayesian theories. It matters a great deal for explaining the motivations of why people of certain cultures would not be willing to work with long time enemies or otherwise alien peoples. Money? Who's going to pay them? Yes but we still have locks for a reason. Dedicated thieves and murders can break locks just as easily as earthbenders can break stone walls, or any kind of wall that isn't metal for that matter. The reason for having them both is the same.

u/luminarium [+1] *

Yes, they aren't, so neither the setting nor the real world is like your analogy. No, you were saying it's not a good analogy because one is the majority and one isn't. I'm saying neither is the majority. Where are the opportunities where other nations would hire other benders? I mentioned a few in the OP. Cultural grounds You don't need cultures working together. You only need one firebender teaching firebending to people in earth nation... Who's going to pay them? Whoever wants their services. Firebenders in earth nation can command a high salary because there isn't enough supply to meet demand.

u/None [+3] *

No, you were saying it's not a good analogy because one is the majority and one isn't. I'm saying neither is the majority. Speak English, please. I mentioned a few in the OP. The opportunities you mentioned require a very high end transportation infrastructure that doesn't exist. Or would piss off the other cultures. The Water Tribe does not want firebenders to keep them warm, that would be an insult to their ability to live. You don't need cultures working together. You only need one firebender teaching firebending to people in earth nation... Earth kingdom people don't have the genetic capacity to firebend, no amount of teaching can fix this. Whoever wants their services. Firebenders in earth nation can command a high salary because there isn't enough supply to meet demand. Who wants their services? There is no demand! Which is what you keep missing in this entirely economics focused, and therefore entirely ignorant, analysis.

u/luminarium [+1] *

The opportunities you mentioned require a very high end transportation infrastructure that doesn't exist. Why do you believe this? If I convinced you otherwise, would you change your view? Or would piss off the other cultures. The Water Tribe does not wand firebenders to keep them warm, that would be an insult to their ability to live. Right. In the same way that the West wouldn't want the East's gunpowder, because it would be an insult to their romantic notions of warfare. Earth kingdom people don't have the genetic capacity to firebend, no amount of teaching can fix this. Really? Where is this in the canon? Who wants their services? There is no demand! Of course there is. In the winter, or for lighting, or for crafting (ie. smithing), or for powering steam engines, and much, much more.

u/None [+4] *

Why do you believe this? One waterbender can't run a factory, you need mass migration of all the waterbenders in the world to factories to make to make a meaningful impact, it's far simpler to just make a non bender system that removes water. Right. In the same way that the West wouldn't want the East's gunpowder, because it would be an insult to their romantic notions of warfare. No, not in the same way, because gunpowder is a tool any culture can produce on it's own and not a basic feature of civilization's culture. Asking firebenders to heat them in the winter is saying that they can't survive the winters on their own, this is really very obvious. Really? Where is this in the canon? Where is bending being genetic canon? It's all over the show, characters either bend or can't, and each region is made of people who can only bend one element. 😒 Of course there is. In the winter, or for lighting, or for crafting (ie. smithing), or for powering steam engines, and much, much more. There is no demand for having an enemy do these things. Some other user made the great analogy of the Chinese asking the horse riding tribes to teach them horseriding. It's an idiotic utopian fantasy.

u/luminarium [+1] *

One waterbender can't run a factory, you need mass migration of all the waterbenders in the world to factories to make to make a meaningful impact One waterbender can teach more.

u/None [+1] *

More waterbenders that have to be moved there.

u/callmesalticidae [+1] writes worldbuilding books*

One waterbender can teach more. No, they can’t, unless the students already have the capability to waterbend. Did you ever actually watch the show? This isn’t even a weird trivia fact from that one obscure episode that only aired in Basque Country or something.

u/None [+11] *

[deleted]

u/luminarium [+1] *

The Mongols could have taught the Chinese to be amazing Horsemen, and the Chinese could have taught the Mongols how to establish a centrally planned Kingdom. That's because the Chinese had arable farmland and thus cities (which makes having horses a lot less useful than on the Mongolian steppe) and thus the ability to have a centrally planned kingdom. The moment the Mongols took over China (Qin) they stopped using their amazing horses and started using a centrally planned kingdom. Also, a ton of houses in the world didn't have locks for like, 4000 years of human history Yes, because humans lived in groups of less than 200 people (where everyone knew everyone) for most of human history. But the moment you leave your door unlocked in a city (like Ba Sing Se was) you're opening yourself up to getting things stolen from.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+2] Father of Learning*

That's because the Chinese had arable farmland and thus cities (which makes having horses a lot less useful than on the Mongolian steppe) and thus the ability to have a centrally planned kingdom. The moment the Mongols took over China (Qin) they stopped using their amazing horses and started using a centrally planned kingdom. Cities don't make horses less useful, mass transportation and industrialization does. China had neither. The moment the Mongols took over China (Qin) they stopped using their amazing horses and started using a centrally planned kingdom. Are you implying that horses cause anarchy? Yes, because humans lived in groups of less than 200 people (where everyone knew everyone) for most of human history. But the moment you leave your door unlocked in a city (like Ba Sing Se was) you're opening yourself up to getting things stolen from. And you still are if you have a window/take 30 seconds to learn to lockpick, but that doesn't count because......

u/Bowbreaker [+2] Solitary Locust*

According to Wikipedia there were cities with more than 10,000 people in 3500BC. More than 50,000 in 2500BC. 100,000 in 700BC. A million in 100BC. Are you telling me they all lived with extra reinforced locks where no one could enter unnoticed?

u/luminarium [+0] *

Hmm good point!

u/sicutumbo [+3] *

I think your first point is the strongest. I'm not particularly sure how useful fire and air benders would be, although being able to make sailing ships go far faster would be handy, but earth and water benders would be extremely useful. Water has healing, which would be amazingly useful in such a society before the invention of antibiotics and anaesthesia. Couple that with their ability to pull fresh water out of the air in the middle of the ocean, and catch fish with almost trivial ease, and water benders would be amazingly wealthy and welcomed in every corner of society. Earthbenders could build homes, levees, roads, bridges, wells, mountain paths, just about anything structural that a society could need. Their ability to reshape terrain on a large scale if given enough time would also make them indispensible for any nation that wants secure borders.

u/dinoseen [+1] *

I think with some high level techniques yet to be developed that firebenders could be the most offensively powerful class of bender. Firebending isn't just about fire. It's about heat, light, life, and explosive power. If an earthbender can make instant lava, I see no reason a firebender couldn't shoot a plasma beam or something. Airbenders could probably do stuff with vacuums and shock waves, which is obviously pretty powerful if you can make them have the force of a grenade or more. Personally, I'd rank earth and fire benders as strongest, followed by air and then water. I know water has bloodbending, but most people can only use that on a full moon if ever. On the other hand, shooting blades of sharp ice through the air is pretty good, so as things stand (currently airbenders can't do powerful explosions with air pressure) I guess the bottom spot would indeed be taken by Air. Water is more deadly on a small scale, but if airbenders can figure out air grenades then they join the big boys, and Water just doesn't seem capable of the large scale destruction the others could without many benders. It's too targeted.

u/Arbelbyss [+1] *

All 4 Bending Arts are dangerous if you know how you want to use them. With water comes the power of erosion and you've seen water jet cutters right? Those are basically erosion tools highly focused to a massive degree in the use of water though small, but with water benders you can basically scale it up without requiring larger equipment. And since water is a liquid in most occasions as well as it being a fluid, its motion is highly dangerous which leads into erosion and much more. It can cause rain, it can dehydrate, it can blood bend, it can suck the water out of plants; why not out of humans, you also have the ability to basically flash freeze things the instant you freeze water around it (this can affect blood as well). Then there's the problem in where humanity/man might follow our world's rules in survival, 3 days without water is a death sentence and if you're able to take away the water then you take away the motive to move around be it militarily, survival, or for travel purposes. IF you can affect water in a myriad of ways, why not basically affect the rain, snow, or hail to where it becomes razor hail. (A Phenomena seen in Gears of War, not the bending things into razor hail...) I'm just saying with the right ideas, water can be just as dangerous as the other elements. Erosion is dangerous why do you think we have to repair/maintain things so much.

u/turtleswamp [+3] *

In Last Air Bender we're seeing the tail end of a hundred years of war which wiped out the Air Nomads, and devastated the Southern Water Tribe to the point they're in a post apocalyptic state with no ability to properly train their one remaining water bender, fostered extreme nationalism in the fire nation, and hate of the fire nation in pretty much everyone else. The only two powers who could in theory be swapping benders at scale in any form otehr than forced conscription of conquered people would be the Earth Kingdom and the Northern Water Tribe, but the Northern Tribe appears to have reacted to the sacking of the South with isolationism and trying to keep out of the line of fire. And the Fire Nation seems to (weirdly) have naval superiority over the Water Tribe so travel is dangerous. Even then we do see some remnants of internationality bending. The Foggy Swamp water benders live in Earth kingdom territory and practice a distinct style of water bending, and the Sand Benders live in an isolated desert and appear to have learned to mimic some air-bending like methods with earth bending. The Kioshi warriors use fans in their martial arts, which in context looks a lot like they're adapting Avatar Kioshi's air bending to non-bending styles. ​ Then in Legend of Korra, we see exactly the kind of muti-disciplinary bending and industrial boom that wasn't happening during the war and we find out that bending isn't straight up genetics as people with no known air nomad heritage start spontaneously gaining air bending. ​ As to walls. I expect cost is more important than resistance to direct attack by a bender, for much the same reason we still make windows out of glass, and most doors can be battered open with a hand ram. Especially since the kind of design it'd take to make a house that can withstand a giant flying rock probably doesn't come cheap or comfortable. Historically buildings are usually made out of what's readily available and designed to withstand local weather more than to be vandalism-proof. ​

u/luminarium [+1] *

In Last Air Bender we're seeing the tail end of a hundred years of war which wiped out the Air Nomads I was talking about before the war, why hadn't they all intermixed.

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+1] Father of Learning*

There wasn't an industrial revolution before the war, barely a generation or two in the fire nation at the most

u/turtleswamp [+1] *

Because of oceans.

u/krazy_dragon [+4] *

I believe this was settled quite nicely in Legends of Korra when she lives through the first Avatars life. Each cuty state is protected by a kion turtle which gives it inhabitants a distinct bending element.

u/None [+4] *

Except that it retcons what we knew of the origin of bending in the original Avatar, which is that each bending tradition arose naturally from observing nature. Water benders with the moon and tides, fire benders with the sun and dragons, earth benders with the badgermoles, and air benders with the flying bison. Now it could be said that the traditions were forgotten over time and then relearned through the observation of these things, but I think it's more likely that Bryke were just being lazy with their worldbuilding. There's plenty of that in Korra.

u/turtleswamp [+3] *

Sort of. We do see Wan being guided through the "dragon dance" by a dragon in the montage prior to his first use of actual fire-bending forms rather than just crudely throwing gobs of fire like he did before. It's at least plausible that the modern story of how benders learned bending is a reference to the traditions and forms they use to not suck at it more than just having the ability to command an element.

u/sicutumbo [+3] *

I don't believe there's any actual confirmation that those original benders were the ones to teach humans. Every nation has their myths about how they acquired bending, but I think that's all they were. Or maybe the animals + moon showed them how to better use their existing abilities, even if they didn't grant them those abilities in the first place. Say, dragons shared their philosophy of fire and techniques of bending fire, which boosted a firebender's power far above someone who was untrained by the dragons. And I guess the actual moon spirit may have done the same for the water tribe.

u/None [+8] *

I just think it took a generally interesting mythical origin story that fit with the theme of the first avatar and turned it into something pretty lame. Just like how the in-story title of "Avatar" went from "Avatar of the spirit world, master of all elements" to "Avatar of this one overpowered spirit that's one half of a world-destroying whole based on a whole yin-yang thing that we already did for the moon and water spirits in the last show." And now the bridge to the spirit world thing is literal. What used to be a story vaguely based on real Asian mysticism completely detached itself from that inspiration. And it also means the power of bending isn't really the bender's, it's just on loan, which I think is bad for other reasons.

u/luminarium [+1] *

Each cuty state is protected by a kion turtle which gives it inhabitants a distinct bending element. So? The fact that fire benders still fire bend when going into the earth nation is proof that you can use your bending element in foreign lands.

u/marwin42 [+2] *

Maybe genetics are to blame?
For example, if every person carried a gene of a determined element and for a person to be a bender, neither of his parent's gene can be of another element. It would then be unpratical to keep an foreign element of bending for multiple generations.
That problably wouldn't hold until modern era, but it could certainly last until around the industrial revolution, when avatar takes place.
Non-standart benders would then be too rare to affect the economy too much, instead being treated as valuable resources.

As for the walls, I can't remember if any benders were shown actually going through them, but I'm pretty sure they could. Maybe most were reinforced with other materials, but that seems pretty ineficient.

u/Vampyricon [+4] *

Simple Mendelian genetics won't explain bending. I checked.

u/CoronaPollentia [+3] *

Except there's that whole thing where random people were suddenly airbenders. That is an argument against genetics as a primary factor.

u/luminarium [-2] *

Maybe genetics are to blame? Wait hold on, are you just grasping for explanations to justify the canon here? You don't seem very confident about this. It would then be unpratical to keep an foreign element of bending for multiple generations. They don't have to. They can just teach their foreign bending to the natives, or have successive waves of immigrants. I can't remember if any benders were shown actually going through them, but I'm pretty sure they could. Maybe most were reinforced with other materials, but that seems pretty ineficient. Well you know earth benders can just bend earthen walls out of their way.

u/ProfessorPhi [+2] *

I think OP needs to bring Korra into his argument. A lot of what he's brought up seem to be supported (in a roundabout fashion, maybe even needing a fan theory or two) by Korra's season. Things like the insane development of tech in Korra (which I attribute to the mixing of ideas), the resurgence of legendary bending, to becoming common place (metal and lightning are good examples, but we also see Bolin lava bend, Zaheer fly, Tenzin's daughter Spirit bend? and of course Mako gender bend). I'm not sure about the spiritual aspect of bending. Aang and Katara's kids were Air, Water and nothing (until he became air powered too). Bolin and Mako were earth and fire despite being brothers and super close. Given the mixed culture of republic city and mixed marriages why did Bhumi (who seems very similar to OG Bhumi and Bolin) not become an earth bender. Why is Meelo who doesn't seem like a typical air nomad not become a earth bender. Why do children of non-benders not seem to develop bending powers more often (I think Toph is a good counter example, but then we have Asami). How does Katara develop ability in so many different elements barring air till she get's some training? I agree that racism and lack of transport technology explains a lot, and the Fire Nation can in many ways be read loosely as an allegory of British occupation of Asia (Earth Nation), which is why there wasn't a lot of movement, but OP does bring a lot of points. In india, spices, wealth and sand were siphoned to britain, china got the opium treatment and had it's tea and gunpowder formulas stolen, most of SEA was occupied by the Brits. In this world, when you could have people that could divert water and build walls, I'd have expected far more slavery. Or if that was abhorrent, the situation of the gulf where poor workers are paid a pittance to risk their lives. Technology asymmetry should result in some serious exploitation. Finally, the avatar is a problem here. Given his/her huge cultural significance, it's a bit trickier to be racist when you have a mythical figure who's had equal representation over history. They're much more connected than the current world and it should've prevented racism at the top at the very least, if not among common people. If there was limited transportation, there'd have been no contact and thus limited contempt, if there was transportation, there should have been more contact and if racism was a thing, attempts to conquer. Maybe the avatar prevented this, but it was very short sighted to not keep the various countries on an equal footing so as to not require his presence (and we can see how Aang ensured reduced tensions between the various tribes).

u/ArgentStonecutter [+2] Emergency Mustelid Hologram*

[deleted complaint about overanalyzing a children's story, what was I thinking?] You ought to write some rationalist Airbender fanfic to go along with HPMoR and MLP:FIO.

u/tjhance [+3] *

[deleted complaint about overanalyzing a children's story, what was I thinking?] I was gonna say something like this too, but I also decided against it because it's r/rational after all. But what the hell, I'll say it anyway. I don't think posting a critique of the worldbuilding on a children's show is super interesting. Frankly, it's just not surprising or interesting if a children's show has holes. (Actually, the other reason I almost didn't say anything is that Avatar does have much better worldbuilding than most, so in this particular case, it is much more worth discussing these things than, say, Steven Universe, which is a great show but you can drive trucks through the holes in its worldbuilding, which makes it hardly worth discussing unless you're actually proposing major fixes.) At any rate, I think it could be worthwhile to make an Avatar rational fic exploring the economics of house building or cultural diffusion in Avatar-land -- but just posting a list of things wrong in the avatar world and then denouncing the worldbuilding as "implausible" just has me rolling my eyes, especially because those things are more complicated than the OP makes them out to be, as demonstrated by the ample discussion on the thread. ((1) is mostly explained by nationalism and the fact that it's war-time while (2) is mostly explained by the fact that actually, plenty of houses in the world are just made of wood anyway.)

u/luminarium [+1] *

haha :) To be fair, the distinct nations of Avatar is a major aspect of its charm, actually mixing up the four bending styles would weaken the work (even though it would make it more rational). So I'll have to pass.

u/ArgentStonecutter [+1] Emergency Mustelid Hologram*

OK, how about a HP:MoR/MLP:FIO crossover?

u/luminarium [+1] *

Sorry, what's MLP and FIO?

u/ArgentStonecutter [+1] Emergency Mustelid Hologram*

https://www.fimfiction.net/story/62074/friendship-is-optimal

u/eroticas [+2] *

You're right of course, but we have to try for apologia now. Well, you can keep out non-benders, and more importantly animals and the weather (which is the original point of a wall - for most of human pre-history irl, a human made wall was an ephemeral structure and did not really keep a human out). I think the reason this works in canon is that people don't use bending for technological progress until we get to republic city. Before that, bending is pretty much just a fighting style, and it doesn't even seem to matter that much which particular fighting style you have. We don't even have confirmation that bending is used for housing construction, for all we know they're building igloos and mud huts in the non-magical way using the available material. Also, I think it might be worth considering that terrified humans were living on the backs of lion turtles for protection until just recently. So arguably, the civilization of the Gaang is actually brand new. So maybe they were all basically isolated tribes until fairly recently? It's hard to square that with the level of technological progress in the Fire and Earth nations, though. Another potential point is that bending might be very rare for non air nomads (how much of that is because non, and only appear infrequently and randomly in people who live in a climate that predisposes for it...and we just think their are a lot of benders because the dramatic story arcs follow benders. Wasn't Katara the only water bender in her tribe? And Sokka seemed to think bending was pretty mysterious, not an integral part of society. (Yes yes they killed off all the old water benders, but consider that Katara is one of many children in that tribe)

u/luminarium [+1] *

people don't use bending for technological progress Yes, but the thing is, they totally would have in a realistic world, you just don't leave obvious uses for bending un-explored when there's a lot of money to be had from finding uses for bending. Wasn't Katara the only water bender in her tribe? Nope, there were like at least 50-100 drawn out in the anime for when they were entering the water tribe place and the subsequent battle there. Similarly there were at least 50-100 earth benders and fire benders. With the implication of their being a ton more.

u/WadeSwiftly [+2] *

Nope, there were like at least 50-100 drawn out in the anime for when they were entering the water tribe place and the subsequent battle there. Similarly there were at least 50-100 earth benders and fire benders. With the implication of their being a ton more. /u/eroticas is correct. Katara was the only waterbender in the Southern Water Tribe. You may have mixed it up with the Northern Water Tribe. I’m not sure where you’re talking about the 50+ Earthbenders.

u/luminarium [+1] *

Katara was the only waterbender in the Southern Water Tribe. You may have mixed it up with the Northern Water Tribe. Wow really? She's the only one? How large was her tribe?

u/tjhance [+2] *

BTW, random thought relevant to #1 that I haven't seen anybody bring up: there IS an example of a set of benders working for another nation: Azula has major successes by working with the Dai Li. It's a pretty bold move, all things considered, but a very shrewd one. She's basically the rational character picking up the $20 bill. (and yes, I do still think there are perfectly good reasons why that $20 bill was still on the ground until azula picked it up)

u/AStartlingStatement [+1] *

The part that bothered me the most as a young rationalist watching the show for the first time was that every form of bending follows the same rules except firebending. An airbender bends the air around them. An earthbender bends the surrounding stone in the area. A waterbender needs to be close to a body of water to bend water (barring some advanced techniques). If you put any of these three in an area where they have no access to their respective elements, like an earthbender at sea, then they are essentially powerless. Fire does not follow these rules however. Firebenders don't need to have a source of fire to use their powers. They simply create fire out of nothing every time they use their powers. I found this endlessly annoying as a kid because it's inconsistent and breaks the established rules of the setting.

u/thrawnca [+1] Carbon-based biped*

Perhaps they are able to manipulate the flow of heat in the environment around them, somewhat like Asimov's Solarians, or Enna of Bayern.

u/darkflagrance [+1] *

M Night agreed, because his fire benders carry lamps everywhere.

u/dinoseen [+1] *

One thing to take away from this thread: if you're writing an Avatar story, make up all the shit you like. Fuck canon. ^to^a^degree

u/everything-narrative [+1] Coral, Abide with Rubicon!*

The planet itself would be 95% osmium in order to have ~1G, while being small enough that Appa's slow furry butt can fly pole to pole in... 3 weeks?

u/SuperFartmeister [+1] *

I absolutely agree with #1. Here's another thought. There is in-canon evidence that bending is genetically inherited, excepting the Avatar. Thus in a world where there is intermingling of all kinds of benders, we could find people who can bend 2 elements. Or 3. Or 4. Aand you have your own pocket Avatar, at least functionally.

u/fassina2 [-3] Progressive Overload*

I'm going to go out here and say, after reading your points and doing some thinking, I believe you are mostly correct. ​ I can understand people trying to rationalize the problems away, but frankly I'd expect better from this community. Rationality means we care about finding the truth or the closest to it we can get, not defending things we like even if we need to avoid the truth to do it. That's what religious people do. His points are valid, based on the evidence we've seen he is correct. Trying to rationalize it away won't change this fact. It's still a great show, this doesn't change that. All this means is that the show isn't 100% perfect, but nothing is..

u/Vampyricon [+2] *

His post judges whether it makes sense based on our world. If one were to write a rationalist fic in Avatar, it only means there is a problem there to be solved.

u/fassina2 [+1] Progressive Overload*

I agree, my only issue was with the rationalization, band aid, hide it away, pretend it's not real, attitude some of the commenters had. In reality the most likely answer why the show is this way is because the authors didn't think about it. Not some convoluted spiritual / genetics / architecture explanation.

u/Vampyricon [+1] *

Yes, but you need an in-universe explanation for it too if you're going to write a rationalist Avatar. One can't just have the Avatar say "Bryke didn't think of that."

u/ArgentStonecutter [+2] Emergency Mustelid Hologram*

Benders are actually communicating with a supercomputer in the Earth's core that both grants them powers and forces them to remain in a segregated medieval society. See also "Ra" and "The Gods are Bastards". ^((That is to say, don't do this one, it's been done.)^)

u/Vampyricon [+1] *

Counter-evidence: The Legend of Korra

u/Ardvarkeating101 [+0] Father of Learning*

Counter-Counter-Evidence: Airbenders were routers for the supercomputer

u/fassina2 [+1] Progressive Overload*

That's reasonable and I've no arguments against it.

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