scrape_r_rational/data/cache/2nsc1e.md

[BST] Ninjas vs Wizards

Post:

If you were a first-year Hogwarts student with a wand and you had some ninja friends, and you were immune to genjutsu, how would you fight the antagonists of Naruto?

...Hypothetically speaking.

What sort of factors would be relevant, what would likely determine victory between, say, a chunin and a recent graduate of Hogwarts? How would ninjas deal with magic and how would wizards counter or coordinate with ninjutsu? What kinds of creative combinations or interactions can magic have with ninjutsu? Who would win in a fight, Orochimaru or Voldemort, and why? And how terrifying would they be if they teamed up?

I suppose I'm more interested in creativity and fun than logic, but logic is important too. Basically, what kind of cool things can you think of, and what spells, jutsus, or combinations of spells and jutsus seem particularly potent or needing to be addressed in some way? And bear in mind that my information about Naruto is largely secondhand (and about Haruhi Suzumiya for that matter), so I would appreciate answers that explain whatever ninja things are brought up.

Comments:

• u/Escapement:

  Naruto is largely made of ass pulls to make the fight come out the way the writer wants. Huge plot device combat abilities show up once to get the author out of a corner they wrote themselves into and then are never ever revisited. Consider for example [The Great Snake Escape](http://sractheninja.deviantart.com/art/Naruto-Deidara-Lives-63271750). It is quite possible that in *complete accord with Naruto canon*, a ninja's response to being *out of chakra* and about to be massively exploded by an explosion that has already started to propagate a few feet away is to *conjure a giant snake from nothing, use a sharingan genjutsu to hypnotize the snake, get inside the snake, then teleport the snake away in a manner that is never referred to or used again, in the few milliseconds of time before the explosion reaches them*. Yes, seriously. Yes, the first two steps required lots of chakra every other time in the story they were seen. Yes, the second two steps are basically absurd on the face of them.
  
  On the other hand, Rowling can't imagine a fight scene interestingly to save her life, and the only thing she ever has Harry do is disarm people; she tries to pass it off as a signature move or something, but I am pretty sure it's mostly just bad writing. Also, all the fights' various victories and defeats mostly seem like ass-pulls to a similar extent to HP's, see e.g. how badly Harry would have lost multiple times if Voldemort had been willing as a villain to fight unfairly and let his army of masked evil followers who call *themselves* Death Eaters help him in a confrontation with HP or even just allow them to kill HP.
  
  Basically, both series come down to being answered best by [Stan Lee's Who Would Win?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4_zFYnnn2Y) - in both series the author has pretty clearly decided the outcome they want to each fight and, logic or reason be damned, that's what's going to happen by the end of the fight. Molly Weasley will kill Belatrix in a fight because no reason, and Deidara won't kill Sasuke because no reason.
  
  That all said: Naruto is supersaturated with ways to instantly incapacitate or kill people from hiding (e.g.  - hiding underground and instantly pulling people under with you, hiding in puddles [which would be much better in England], transforming into friendlies or civilians/muggles with henge, numerous psuedoteleportation skills, numerous clone skills, etc). On the other hand, Harry Potter can do a lot of that sort of thing too - starting a fight by whispering Avada Kedavra or whatever the petrifying one is from beneath a cloak of invisibility, or via polyjuice, or from above via broomsticks, or pretending to be animal via animagery, etc. Basilisk straight-up kill or petrify, there are those lethal plants if you can hear them, etc. Bearing all this in mind, if your plot wants to have Naruto characters win, have them be the ambushers; if you want HP characters to win instead, have them be the ambushers. Both series are supersaturated with ways to instantly ambush people and win (fatally or taking-prisoners-ways, for both) if that's what you want to do for your plot to make one side win or the other.
  
  If both sides see each other and know of the other's presence, you can have basically anything you want to happen happen because a lot of both sides' powers are made of bullshit asspulls and are insufficiently explained to be even fully defined in their own continuities, and their interactions are of course explained even less than that because neither series has ever considered the existence of the other in canon. You could have the basic dispel magic spell interfere with chakra constructs and disrupt genjutsu and ninjutsu techniques like clones or whatever, followed by a incapacitating with jinxes that are homing or whatever. You could have the sunshin or replacement techniques allow a ninja to close to close quarters and disarm everyone with taijutsu in a half second before their wands are even drawn. You could have wizards' spells shatter helplessly on Rasengans or Rasenshurikens or even generic ninja attacks like Sasuke's start of series fireballs, or you could have ninjas attempt to close to melee range only to find that their opponents can fly around unsupported at fairly high speeds unsupported by anything because Snape wrote down the technique somewhere (he and Volde both did it in canon). You could have Harry's mysterious imperio-resistance trump card work on the Nara shadow thingy has or on Ino's soul-switchy thingy or basically any genjutsu or sharingan bullshit or not basically as the plot demands. Cloaks of invisibility, including The Cloak of Invisibility, can beat Hyuuga bullshit eyes or Uchiha bullshit eyes or Madara bullshit eyes, or not, 100% as your plot requires.
  
  Naruto is supersaturated with cool-visual-ideas and neat combat options, and Harry Potter really isn't for the most part - the coolest thing anyone ever summons in combat is a snake once and that was in book 2 and had no effect. If you need good ideas in this vein for HP cool dueling spells to use in a standup fight that might give them cooler sounding and more tactical options to make the fights more interesting, the fanfic which did this best that I know of is Jim Bernheimer's [The Lie I've Lived](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/3384712/1/The-Lie-I-ve-Lived). This fic has an entire host of other issues, but the dueling and training for dueling and actual combat segments are extremely well done for a more 'interesting' wizarding combat that is nonetheless not too far out of line with other stuff J K Rowling came up with. 
  
  If you want a writing challenge, have all involved characters duplicate themselves and experience the fight in multiple non-chronoligcally-linear perspectives simultaneously (HP - time turners for Temporal Fugue Attack, Naruto - Shadow or other styles of Clones).
  

• u/Tirran:

  A graduate of Hogwarts likely wouldn't be able to go up against any of the Naruto villains.
  
   I'm gonna guess that even against a genin, the simple inability of Hogwarts' students to efficiently cast spells would be basically an insta-kill. Harry managed to defeat one of the most accomplished duelists simply by using Expelliarmus. There's not a lot of difference in skill between a fifty-year-old wizard and a fourteen-year-old in terms of ability, whereas in Naruto the difference between a thirty-year-old and a fourteen-year-old is so great as to be laughable. The wizard would probably get killed by a kunai or have their wamd switched out by a jutsu in the time it takes to just say an incantation.
  
  Assuming that Avada Kedavra works like in the books, you really could just cast as many as you wanted in the direction of the people you want dead, because it only stops once it's killed someone. This would enable the insta-kill of Orochimaru's snake, as well as Gaara just due to the size of the monsters. Likewise, any super sized summon would be an easy kill, like Naruto's frogs. Every ninja settlement could be destroyed in an afternoon, because they could just apparate in, light up some fiendfyre, and then apparate out. Wizards could also be used to rapidly teleport high skill individuals into battle.
  
  Legilimency and the imperius would be basically useless because of the high will of all ranking ninjas. 
  
   Transfiguration would be useless on a large scale because in Naruto, they have television. Any society that can handle that level of industry should be able to create more kunai or bombs or whatever faster than a bored seventeen-year-old could transfigure them. 
  
  All of this basically comes down to the fact that Harry Potter wizards are basically useless. I'm sure if you sent them to the equivalent of Brakebills(from the Magicians, which is a great book) they'd be a lot more combat effective, but almost every spell in the series is a one-use Chekov's gun. They had a spell that could destroy matter in the fourth book, but it was only used once to blast apart a hedge. They could have toppled Malfoy's manor after they'd gotten their wands back in the seventh book, but, instead, it's used once. Spells really aren't meant for war or killing in the books, and the wizards are definitely not fighters. Their best use would be as rapid destruction and redeployment forces.
  

• u/E-o_o-3:

  Do I get a time turner? Do I get an invisibility cloak? Do I get a house elf? Do I get a pet basilisk or any other magical creature? Do they know my powers? Do I get a teleport? Do I get a broom stick? Mind reading? Muggle tech?
  
  I won't watch Naruto so I wouldn't actually know, but these are the sorts of questions I'd want to know if I was against super-fast opponents who had supernaturally good senses and could not be hit with projectiles and I had time to prepare. If I had the time turner, I'd *always* have time to prepare,
  
  Basilisks force opponents to close eyes, and besides there is a painful mental attack if they look at your eyes.  Earplugs + adult Mandrakes *might* just kill them all immediately, but if not at least they can't hear you. A lot of patronuses flying around *right* in front of opponent's vision, blinding them if they look anywhere but at the basilisks. Also, you should fling stink pellets and perhaps poisonous gas everywhere, so they can't smell you under the cloaks. Now that hearing, seeing, smelling, or touching anything is deadly, you can be invisible in peace (also, the *outside* of your invisibility cloak is a portkey that apparates anyone who touches it to a hell somewhere) and maybe you can land a hit or two in the confusion. Hopefully you're at least safe from whatever poorly aimed projectiles manage to be thrown in this din, because *you* have magic force shield...whereas avada kedavra can go through enemy shields. You can even try Imperio if things go well.
  
  House elves seem a lot more agile than wizards and can use lots of wandless magic, so are less easily disabled, and don't question orders or fear death. A house-elf touch kills instantly, since apparation is easily hacked into an insta-kill. Time turners provide intel, but they *also* double the size of your army with each use (10 *invisible* copies of house eleves riding basilisks! The first house elf in the time turner chain drank felix! The basilisks are randomly teleporting and disappearing-reappearing everywhere!). Teleporting stuff directly inside of them. How frequently can you apparate around? Oh, wait, it doesn't matter - your time turner-ed selves and/or magical creatures who can apparate can help you out while your apparation skill recharges, so you really hop around if you trust them to not splinch you. Also as long as we've got critters, dementors are indestructable, sooo...
  
  Come to think of it, you can probably transfigure some of these creatures even if you can't bring them with. There's also at least a few Area of Effect spells. Hermione has a freezing charm which freezes all the pixies. Fiendfire. Disembodied horcruxes possessing them without them knowing. 
  
  Having at least one ninja ally really powers things up. Off the top of my head, you can hand them long sticks with portkey'd tips or a gun with portkey bullets which send whatever they touch to the bottom of the ocean, or something more insta-killingly lethal, and then use the time turner to make *more* ninjas.
  
  Basically, the Wizard end of things is to just take all stack-able powers, and *stack as many of them as possible*. In a *real* Wizarding War, there would be so much flashing of light and sound and color and things would be going *so* fast and everyone on both sides would probably just die immediately.
  

• u/4t0m:

  I think ninjas are overall more powerful, as well as being more physically capable and creative than most wizards.  They seem to have access to larger attacks / effects than comparable wizards (e.g. the amount of fire that Sasuke can create as a genin would look impressive coming even from Dumbledore*).  In the end it would come down to how wizard shielding spells hold up against elemental effects.  Immortality / resurrection also seems easier for ninjas than for wizards.
  
  Death-eaters might be a different story.  AK is pretty OP.  Do ninjas have any unblockable insta-kills?
  
  *Actually, there is fiendfyre, a dark spell which an average seventh year was able to cast.  I'm not sure how much fire it made, but it was ~special fire~, maybe comparable to Amaterasu.
  

• u/eaglejarl:

  Why are the wizards immune to genjutsu?  If they are, shouldn't the ninja be immune to Imperio, Confundus, Obliviate and all the other mind-effecting HP magic?
  
  Regardless of what's allowed though, I think there's two scenarios:
  
  1. The wizard is still a student: they possess only basic nonlethal jinxes (Jelly Legs, Expeliarmus, etc) and cannot apparate.  
  1. Alternatively, both participants are mature, experienced representatives of their type.  (e.g. chunin vs a typical Auror, or a jounin vs someone like Dumbledore, Voldemort, Bellatrix, Moody, etc)  
  
  In the first case, the ninja wins regardless of the level of the ninja, unless the wizard has a handy Floo or Portkey and can escape.
  
  In the second case, it's a "who-goes-first" question, as both are glass cannon against the other's attacks.  If the wizard lands an Avada Kedavar, the ninja dies.  If the ninja lands a Rasengan, Chudori, etc, then the wizard dies.
  
  The wizard's defenses would consist of Protego, Apparate, and Dumbledore's trick of putting physical objects in the way.  The ninja's defenses would consist of a wide variety of movement abilities, elemental control techniques to create barriers, and lots of distraction techniques such as clones.
  
  Overall, I suspect ninja would win much more often than wizards.
  
  Important factors / techniques on the ninja side:
  
  * Trained to kill
  * Enormously superior physical abilities (martial arts, etc)
  * Stealth and infiltration training
  * Limited chakra:  cannot spam their biggest attacks continually.  For a jonin this is not such a factor.
  * Kawarimi (replacement technique):  Ninja switches for an object such as a log.  Can be done fast enough to avoid a sword that is about to hit them.
  * Shunshin (body flicker): Ninja moves faster than the eye can see across relatively short distances -- AIUI, anywhere up to across-my-small-town.  It's effectively teleportation but it travels through the intervening space.
  * Bunshin (clone): creates an illusionary copy of you that can act independently as a distraction.  Dispels on light contact.
  * Kage bunshin (shadow clone): creates a physical copy of you *and all your non-magical gear* which knows everything you do and can act independently.  Dispels on medium contact but when it does you get all of its memories.  Great for scouting.  Also allows you to attack from multiple directions simultaneously.  If you're Naruto or any other jinchuuriki and can create an effectively unlimited number of them it means that you never need to physically encounter the wizard at all.
  * Elemental clones (water, earth, etc)  For this purpose, same as kage bunshin.
  * [Earth Release](http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Earth_Release:_Hiding_Like_a_Mole_Technique) Move around underground for surprise attacks.
  * Exploding tags and trapmaking
  * EDIT:  Forgot to mention the Henge (transformation technique).  A ninja can turn himself into another person or into *any physical object, even one of a different size*.  I'm not familiar with canon, but I've seen 'fics where people turn themselves into kunai (throwing knives), buckets, etc.  This is a basic Academy skill that even genin can do.
  
  Important HP factors:
  
  * Can spam spells infinitely
  * Helpless without their wands
  * Avada Kedavra
  * Imperio
  * Teleportation (Apparate, floo, portkey)
  

  • u/None:

    I decided wizards are immune to genjutsu because they don't have any chakra to be manipulated. But ninjas still have brains. I'm thinking they should be considered Muggles in terms of magic affecting them, which means Imperio and the like should still work.
    
    ninjas are broken =(
    
    Actually, on the subject of chakra, how strict is it? Sasuke and Kakashi have very limited use of their eye powers and the chidori, but Naruto can make about a thousand clones? Is he supposed to be just that special?
    
    I suppose what wizards would need is time to prepare. Disillusioned and with shields up and buffed with potions they would be pretty formidable. A wizard who just happens to stumble across a ninja is toast unless he can Apparate away in time.
    
    Items would be a factor, again given preparation. Invisibility cloaks, brooms, and hats with shield charms would go a long way to giving wizards equal footing.
    

    • u/eaglejarl:

      [genjutsu]
      
      That actually makes a lot of sense.  I hadn't realized that genjutsu were chakra manipulations.  
      
      [chakra reserves]
      
      Sasuke is a genin, so his reserves are small.  Kakashi is a jōnin; his reserves are pretty darn big.  As I remember it, the fight against Zabuza at the bridge in Wave went on for a goodly while and trashed a lot of the landscape.  He's got more than enough to get through a battle.
      
      Naruto is the jinchūriki of the Kyuubi, the Nine Tailed Demon Beast, the most powerful of the Tailed Beasts.  (Think big-ass demon.)  Jinchūriki means "living container for a mega-demon"; it was sealed into him when he was a baby.
      
      Naruto's own chakra reserves are enormous because plot, but when he draws on the Kyuubi's chakra they are effectively infinite.  As such, he can make hundreds / a thousand shadow clones and can do it all day long.  To see some of the implications, read [Lighting Up The Dark](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9311012/1/Lighting-Up-the-Dark).  Kage Bunshin is just **ludicrously** broken when you are Naruto.
      
      [prep time]
      Yep, a prepared wizard with battle training and appropriate gear is scary and would be very effective.  He'd have to remain unnoticed and one-shot the ninja though.  If not, the ninja is out of there and either the battle is over or it becomes cat-and-mouse as they each try to figure out where the other is.
      
      One thing the wizards could do if they were smart:  hire ninja from a different Hidden Village.  If they're attached by Sound, hire Hidden Leaf (Naruto's village) or vice-versa.  Ninja are mercenaries, after all.
      

    • u/dwibby:

      (Spoilers ahead)
      
      The mythology of chakra in the Narutoverse suggests that chakra is present in all living beings, and ninjas have a higher concentration of it and have ways of training to enhance their chakra reserves and control. Even civilians, who generally have low chakra reserves and control, can eventually become ninjas, as in the case of Sakura. The God Tree is mentioned to have grown in the blood of the fallen warriors, which I take to mean that it refined and concentrated their chakra in it's Fruit (the consumption of which lead to the advent of ninjas). 
      
      As for Naruto's insane chakra reserves, the explanation is a combination of the Uzumaki clan's resiliency, the incredible amount of toxic chakra that Kurama has been pumping through his chakra pathway system, such that Neji's attack on his chakra system was much less effective it would be on a average ninja. Naruto has enough chakra that he brute-forces most of his techniques, and learning better control has been a major feature of his development.
      
      With the ability to manipulate sage, tailed beast and six paths chakra in addition to his own, Naruto can draw on incredibly large amounts of chakra by the end of the series. In addition, many of the major clans of Konoha could claim that they directly descended from the Rabbit Goddess (Uchiha, Senju, Uzumaki and likely Hyuga), and Naruto is a reincarnation of one of the Rabbit Goddess's grandchildren.
      
      Outside of Naruto direct family, the Namikaze in general aren't really discussed, but Minato was skilled enough to be a major factor in the Third Ninja World War, and become the Hokage. Naruto is also part of the chain of teams that included all of the Hokages. Despite living for a decade in terrible conditions that made seriously compromised his early development, Naruto has a great deal of support to make him a extremely powerful shinobi.
      
      ----
      
      Regarding how wizards and ninjas would interact, magic does seem to have a spiritual component, so magic and chakra manipulation may be somewhat related. I would draw on the similarities between wandless magic and hand seals, as well as wizard blood and  kekkai genkai to smooth out the differences in a crossover setting.
      
      For example, perhaps wizards are naturally gifted at chakra manipulation, and wands are made of chakra resonant materials ("9 inches, Hashirama wood, Nine-Tailed Fox fur"), but with military-class training, even Muggles can shape chakra/cast spells, if somewhat limited by their chakra system.
      
      In this version, a chunin would be closer to an auror team leader. To a ninja, wizards would look like ninjutsu specialists, with some genjutsu ability and virtually no taijutsu skill. A wizard can have a wide array of spells would and Apparition behaves similar to the Flying Thunder God Technique which Minato used to devastating effect in the Third Ninja World War. A skilled wizard would look like a cross between Minato and Kakashi, and yet oddly ignores hand to hand combat skill. On the other hand, a wizard would probably think a ninja regretfully neglect their magical abilities, and worryingly make large use of child soldiers.
      
      I think the biggest factor that would give ninjas on the whole the upper hand is that the culture is very much combat orientated. Those who fought in the Wizarding Wars would probably be competent combatants, but the ninja focus on speed and physical combat would incredibly dangerous to wizards, who largely stand around flinging spells/ninjutsu.  
      
      After first contact in the hypothetical crossover setting, taijutsu and wands would probably be the biggest exchanges. High quality ninja tools would incorporate wand cores to allow better chakra manipulation. Wizarding Schools would convert Flying Lessons to Magical Physical Education incorporating taijutsu, kawarmi and other "magical body enhancement charms." Kawarmi and Shunshin could form the basis of learning Apparition, with the Flying Thunder God Technique being a chakra tag assisted version. Wizards also have a great deal of tools (potions, brooms, portkeys, etc) that could be very interesting when weaponized (portkey to a deathtrap on a kunai).
      

• u/None:

  I suppose the problem I really need to solve is how to have 1-3 first year Hogwarts students with ninja allies be able to contribute in some way to a ninja fight?
  

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