scrape_r_rational/data/cache/2ob570.md

The Rationalist Canon

Post:

The core reasons for /r/rational to exist is to share and create rationalist fiction. Due to a shortage thereof, we also recognise rational fiction - both are defined in the sidebar - but this thread is only about explicitly rationalist fiction.

What is the 'rationalist canon'? The stories that stand out, that helped define the genre or are seen as ideal expressions of it?

The 'old masters' - rationalist published literature. Does anyone know of more?

• The World of Null-A
• The Players of Null-A
• David's Sling
• Earthweb

Online Serials - some original works, and some derivative (it's easier). Are there more that meet the full gold-standard definition? Or some on the list that shouldn't be?

• Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
• Luminosity and Radiance
• The Fable of the Dragon-Tyrant
• The Metropolitian Man and A Bluer Shade of White
• Saga of Soul
• Three Worlds Collide
• Friendship Is Optimal: Caelum Est Conterrens

Remember to explain the reasons for any proposed changes!

Comments:

• u/narfanator:

  While I appreciate the attempts, I am reminded of the joke:
  
  A man finds Truth! and the devil's minion is worried, but the devil is not: "I'll just tempt him to institutionalize it."
  
  Make no boxes and we'll have no arguments about what deserves to be in them.
  
  That said! Maybe a Rational Tropes sort of setup? List the elements of rationalist fiction, and note where they were first observed, and fiction that uses them?
  

  • u/AmeteurOpinions:

    [There *is* a TVTropes page already](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RationalFic).
    

  • u/Polycephal_Lee:

    -canon
    
    +fiction starter set
    

  • u/PeridexisErrant:

    >Make no boxes and we'll have no arguments about what deserves to be in them.
    
    True.  On the other hand, we won't even have an empty box!  
    
    I think it's worth occasionally at least discussing what we would see as the canon, and the reasons behind our choices - to find new things to read, build a shared understanding of what this 'rationalist fiction' thing is, and reflect on our own thinking.  
    
    Challenge:  write a dialogue between a constructivist and a positivist, about the definition of "rationalist fiction" :p
    

    • u/notmy2ndopinion:

      Challenged accepted!
      
      P: "I would posit that the basis of an enjoyable rationalist fiction is one with believable characters who react appropriately to existential threats and utilize all tools necessary to steer the future where they want it to go.  The rational actors will at least be able to predict their opponents.  Superior optimized players will always try to think at least one level higher than anyone expects them to."
      
      C: "It is impossible to write "rationalist" fiction.  Your human qualities with cognitive dispositions, heuristics and biases lead you through deep unconscious pathways and you can't go "one level higher" than them, no matter how much you try to "simulate a theoretical objective decisional computer in your brain."  The closest type of fiction you can write is "fiction that appeals to left-brained thinkers who value cool calculation over warm emotion based on shared constructed "memes and models."
      
      P: "Are you proposing that in order to write a rationalist fiction, I would need to construct a story devoid of humanity?  As in, I'm banned from using human language or social cues for my story?  I'm merely talking about instrumental rationality in maximizing the quality of interactions between characters in a story."
      
      C: "Additionally, you cannot call it "fiction" without recognizing that is a social construct, not based on reality.  Using the "cached thought" of the map-is-not-the-territory, what is the territorial basis for your fictional world?"
      
      P: "Ugh.  You know, normally people consider me to be overly pedantic.  Thank you for showing me that it is possible to over-think things."
      
      *Based on info on "epistemic vs instrumental rationality" and cached thoughts by EY*
      http://lesswrong.com/lw/crd/only_say_rational_when_you_cant_eliminate_the_word/
      http://lesswrong.com/lw/k5/cached_thoughts/
      

• u/aeschenkarnos:

  [Mother of Learning](https://www.fictionpress.com/s/2961893/1/Mother-of-Learning).
  

  • u/xamueljones:

    Oh yes! I cannot up-vote this enough. It is a brilliantly written story of how one reacts to being in a time-loop and is very different from [Time Braid](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/5193644/1/Time-Braid) which while well-written, doesn't come off as very rational, just munchkiny.
    

    • u/aeschenkarnos:

      I particularly like how the character is bootstrapping up from near-schizoid antisocial misanthropy into actual emotional connection and social skills.
      

      • u/Bobertus:

        Well, to be fair, that's more a side effect of some magic-thing in the story. I mean, it's well written, but not as impressive as if the character growth were completely natural.
        

• u/Escapement:

  I personally would have put up the original Friendship is Optimal by Iceman over it's derivative fanfic; the derivative didn't really add a whole lot of interest, it mostly felt like it was an exercise in going through standard objections to uploading. That said, even for that story going strictly by the sidebar I am not sure how much there is of the Rational*ist* techniques and the like in the story - one character conducts a very limited investigation of a virtual environment, but with zero stakes and a pretty silly investigative methodology (play with a toy until you start to get puzzled, come to a conclusion, and havsan omnipotent AI trying to maximize his happiness 'confirm' the results of testing. There is not a lot of puzzles or rationalist techniques in the story. The story has a LOT of transhumanist and LessWrongian trappings, but I don't know that it actually qualifies as rationalist merely because of having plot devices like omnipotent artificial intelligences derived from Lesswrong or related organizations.
  

• u/None:

  [deleted]
  

  • u/rilianus:

    We could also add [Cenotaph](http://archiveofourown.org/works/1152749/chapters/2337442) and it's sequel [Wake](http://archiveofourown.org/works/2417525/chapters/5347754). Both of these have unique, original flavour of wormverse and personally I consider them better than the original (Wildbow's work desperately needs editing)
    

• u/Nevereatcars:

  Seems like we could just slap "The Alexanderwales Online Bibliography" on that list and save everybody the low-hanging fruit.
  

• u/None:

  [Last Christmas](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9915682/1/The-Last-Christmas) by /u/alexanderwales
  

• u/STL:

  I read several chapters of Saga of Soul, having read everything else on your online list, and it totally doesn't seem to belong on the list. I guess the very beginning is rational [](#s "where Eriko confronts Junko's dad"), but everything else didn't meet any of the criteria in the sidebar.
  

  • u/rumblestiltsken:

    Seconded. It isn't even rational fic, let alone rationalist. Some trappings with the experiments, but there it stops.
    

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