scrape_r_rational/data/cache/3a6ata.md

[D] Writing discussion: don't give your rational protagonist too much peacetime

Post:

I'm enjoying Symbiote (by the author of Set In Stone), though some early chapters have a very specific pacing issue. I've seen the same problem in Waves Arisen, Two Year Emperor, Mother of Learning, Luminosity, and Radiance: they give the protagonist too much peacetime. This results in several chapters in a row where the protagonist does not face major threats, and is free to leverage their magic system to grant themselves powerups. This error is not unique to Rational fiction, I see it a lot in Naruto fanfiction too, but it seems a very common one here.

The obvious problem is that if you give a rational protagonist the opportunity, they will by definition seize it to make themselves as overpowered as possible. One obvious solution is to keep the pressure up. Respites from the danger are certainly necessary, and serve as a good point to award level-ups. Just don't fall into the trap of giving them several chapters in a row with which to acquire multiple level-ups without intervening plot.

(I do not have strong credentials with which to make this critique, and I thank the many authors here for doing what I have not, and providing quality material for our enjoyment. Cheers.)

Comments:

• u/DrunkenQuetzalcoatl:

  There is also the opposite problem. If you keep up the pressure all the time then even rational characters mostly act on instinct. I stopped reading Pact halfway because of this.
  

  • u/PlaneOfInfiniteCats:

    This approach is really off-putting for me.
    Many times, authors create some character that has potential to win decisively given a week to prepare. What usually follows is relentless string of attacks, unlucky coincidences and other reasons that don't give character a minute of rest.
    
    There are several problems with this approach.
    
    First. As /u/DrunkenQuetzalcoatl pointed out, characters cannot act smart and rational if they are denied all the opportunities to plan and prepare.
    
    Second. Unrelenting tension-filled action gets boring really fast.
    
    Also, I like to read about characters that devise and execute good, smart plans. Or even flawed plans. As long as flaws weren't apparent at the conception of plan. 
    
    
    **TL; DR:** I enjoy characters leveraging situation to gain power and really hate when characters are prevented from powering up by unrelenting chain of assaults or other mishaps.
    

  • u/Krossfireo:

    Yeah, but Blake is far from a rational character
    

    • u/DrunkenQuetzalcoatl:

      Yes Pact is propably not meant as rational fiction or even rationalist one. Still in the part I actually read Blake was winning (or at least not losing) battles against very powerful opponents with more power and experience than him. Partly through creative uses of his powers.
      
      But yeah rational is not the first word that comes to my mind for Blake. With more downtime to plan maybe he could have made better decisions.
      
      Pact is the only text I quit because there is not enough peacetime. Maybe there are better rational examples for this.
      

• u/ArgentStonecutter:

  You can also have them try things and *fail*.
  
  DO NOT MESS WITH TIME.
  

  • u/alexanderwales:

    If you do have them try things and fail, it's best for this to have an impact in some way; either we find out something important about the world, it's an opportunity for character growth, etc. If there are five thousand words devoted to a character's clever solution to a problem, and the chapter ends with someone pointing out an obvious flaw that sinks the entire thing, that's the sort of thing that can ruin a reader's enjoyment.
    

    • u/ArgentStonecutter:

      [Well, yes](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChekhovsGun)
      

• u/noggin-scratcher:

  There's a similar problem I see a fair amount of, which I think is a product of both too much peacetime and a serial format, where long segments of the story could be summarised as "And then the protagonist spent 10 chapters dicking about on something that was engaging enough to read at the time, but will ultimately turn out to lack any real impact on the rest of the story to come"
  

  • u/alexanderwales:

    The reason that this often happens in serials is that the author often doesn't have any idea where they're going, or knows where they're going but aren't in any rush to actually get there. The serial format doesn't really lend itself to structure as well as a completed book, nor to brevity. When you're writing a serial, you're usually focusing on making *this chapter* enjoyable, with less focus on how it's going to tie into later events.
    

    • u/Farmerbob1:

      Yes.  This definitely describes Symbiote, and large parts of my second story too.  I wrote what popped into my head, with only a loose idea of what would happen in the future.
      
      Squirrel!
      

      • u/alexanderwales:

        I wrote two trainwreck books doing that. I don't even necessarily think that there's anything wrong with having a book that's enjoyable on a chapter-by-chapter basis, but it does tend to make readers say, "Hey, wait a minute, the plot and characters would be exactly the same if we cut these five chapters".
        

        • u/Transfuturist:

          Fortunately for me, I like slice-of-life as much as I like drama and action.
          

        • u/Farmerbob1:

          Agreed.  100%.
          

    • u/ancientcampus:

      True! Pacing in serials is difficult as a rule.
      

• u/Evilness42:

  I can see where you're going with this opinion, and I think it's perfectly valid. However, from my most likely *even less* qualified viewpoint, I don't think you're necessarily distinguishing properly between different types of stories. 
  
  For example, take T.Y.E. and Mother of Learning. These stories aren't necessarily *rational* stories. They're *munchkinry* stories. (Well, at least T.Y.E. is. MoL is about time travel, though, which is pretty much the same thing.) These aren't supposed to be about the plot and the power levels, they're *meant* to show how a person can manipulate the setting to their advantage. 
  
  For example, say Zorian spends 200 restarts training. So what? He's got the experience of a ~30 year old now, which is certainly not enough to go against a thousand year old Lich. But if you've had 200 chances against that Lich without him adapting to your improving strategies, you'll probably figure out a trick to consistently beat him soon enough. 
  
  Though, of course, I can agree with you on the subject of peacetime. If the protagonists are seizing a chance to improve, the antagonists should be improving themselves to compensate. But the problem with that is, if you don't ease up on the pressure *at all,* the eventual outcome is Warhammer 40k.
  

  • u/ancientcampus:

    This is all perfectly valid. I most definitely agree - respites in the story are usually important can improve the overall quality.
    
    I'm not so much commenting on how much a character should level up - you're right, the munchkin genre allows for quite a lot of that - I'm more pointing out that 20K works of nothing *but* leveling up can get quite boring. It's possible others find it fun, though, so again, grains of salt.
    

• u/Farmerbob1:

  Eh, Symbiote isn't set in the Worm universe.  Wildbow just showed me how serial fiction worked, and I liked it.
  
  You are absolutely correct about pacing.  And, after the reading I have been doing on plot and structure, I know what you are seeing that a lot of rational writers are doing.
  
  According to the book I am reading, there are two main types of fiction.  Literary fiction, and commercial fiction.
  
  Literary fiction tends to be more long-winded.  More world building.  More introspection.  More information.
  
  Commercial fiction tends to be heavily action based.  Lean, active.  If your character gets a chapter to rest, they are usually doing a lot more than just resting!  They are plotting, rebuilding something, healing, or whatever to prepare for the following chapter's action-reaction.
  
  Both are normally based on the 'three act story' concept.
  
  The folks here tend to gravitate towards literary fiction because we like to think.  Our characters, as extensions of us, also share that predilection.  Where the lead goes, the story follows.
  
  We can write commercial fiction here.  The process isn't that hard to understand.  We just don't do it naturally :)
  

  • u/ancientcampus:

    Huh, I'd never heard it broken up that way. Yeah, I'll admit I definitely prefer "commercial fiction". To give an honest, harsh, and not universally accepted opinion, I feel like any piece of literary fiction could have well-defined plot and character arcs and can build to a climax (or multiple climaxes) in a timely fashion, and in many cases, the decision not to do this is one of laziness.
    
    Again, that's both harsh and I'm pretty sure a lot of folks would disagree. I also feel the same way about including humor in commercial fiction.
    
    In my amateur opinion, then most elements of world-building, character-building, character-interaction, and story events should have at least one other secondary objective beyond their own sake. The world element should add to the plot, the character interaction should reveal more about the characters, the character element should help convey the author's underlying moral message. (Incidentally, this is one reason I enjoy fanfiction: you can go further in the world building, because this *new* piece of worldbuilding is relevant to this *new* story's climax)
    
    But yes, thank you, I'll try to keep that in mind. Some people like their stories longer than I think necessary. :)
    

    • u/gryfft:

      > I feel like any piece of literary fiction could have well-defined plot and character arcs and can build to a climax (or multiple climaxes) in a timely fashion, and in many cases, the decision not to do this is one of laziness.
      
      I think this is definitely a community welcoming of harsh criticism, but I'd dispute the accuracy of this assertion. Farmer Bob has written a lot of fiction rather quickly, which is no small feat.
      
      Try writing a few thousand words of serial fiction sometime-- it can be very mentally tiresome, and I have immense respect for the authors here who exhibit the amount of creative throughput they do.
      
      No, laziness isn't the right term, I don't think. I think perhaps a more accurate observation would be that creators of serial fiction have a tendency to write less *tightly,* to meander a little more, and to indulge themselves in vignettes conventional fiction authors might not. 
      
      Why? Because there are really two writing modes: a generative mode, in which one produces a great many creative ideas quickly, and a critical mode, in which one reins in the ideas and edits the work to improve *tightness* and chop out extensive navelgazing.
      
      And the thing is, if you want to write *serial* fiction, you *have* to spend more time in mode 1 than mode 2, because otherwise you'll never write anything at all.
      

      • u/alexanderwales:

        > And the thing is, if you want to write *serial* fiction, you *have* to spend more time in mode 1 than mode 2, because otherwise you'll never write anything at all.
        
        I think, more to the point, serial fiction is usually done on a set schedule, and the critical mode takes much more time and introspection. If you have /u/wildbow's frankly insane schedule of twenty or thirty thousand words a week, you just don't have time to go back and make substantial changes to a chapter that you've finished writing. You can do a lot of the small editing stuff, like changing who gets a line, fixing some word choices, and stuff like that, but if you've generated ten thousand words (1/8th of a normal novel) and you realize that you need to rework something in a major way, you sort of have to roll with it, if you're serious about not missing a deadline. Worse, you can't really change things that happened in previous chapters, so you get kind of stuck with what you have and critical mode doesn't help you.
        

    • u/Farmerbob1:

      Your amateur opinion is also the opinion almost all professional writers have. (Most professional writers write commercial fiction)
      
      Scenes in a story can be loosely defined as being action or reaction scenes.  Commercial stories tend to be more action-oriented.  Literary stories tend to lean towards reaction-oriented scenes.
      
      Literary fiction isn't just length.  It's getting into the lead's head and seeing what's there.
      
      I'm going to say something that has the potential to get me some downvotes here, heh.
      
      Let's swap some words, and use movie terms.
      
      Literary Fiction = Chick Flick
      
      Commercial Fiction = Action/Adventure Thriller
      
      Both types of movie have their followers.  Both of them use the same tools, but they use said tools in different proportions.
      

• u/None:

  Stories need conflict and tension, regardless of rationality. Of course, battle doesn't need to be the only source of tension.
  

  • u/acinonys:

    I liked Mother of Learning specifically, because of it’s slow pace, low level of tension and the long periods without anything happening really. Somehow I loved to read about this guy repeatedly doing nothing but searching for teachers and studying with them. It is a very welcome change to all the tight, conflict-driven plots out there.
    

• u/ancientcampus:

  Incidentally, I can think of an exception: Alexander Wales' "Branches on the Trees of Time". After the story's initial conflict and hook, the majority of its 20,000 words are devoted to planning and preparing, and generally doing what I just advised against. I believe it works, though, for a few reasons:
  
  -I found many of the character's clever use of the time travel system to be genuinely new to me. This allowed several plot twists to happen during the peacetime.
  
  -The story is short. Even with the plot twists, the ~10,000 words of planning and preparing started to tax my patience near the end (but didn't quite cross the line).
  
  So, like all rules, exceptions exist. Here, the author kept it interesting (to me) and had a very immediate climax it was building towards. If he interrupted the planning session with drama, it would have stretched the story beyond the length it was structured for.
  
  The constant level-up structure also works in A Bluer Shade of White, for different reasons. I won't spoil the story, but suffice to say the circumstances are different, and the author doesn't quite let off the drama pedal until the end.
  
  Disclaimer the second: I did not read enough of Mother of Learning to truly critique it. I just got the same vibe.
  

• u/None:

  Symbiote as far as I know is not set in the Worm universe.
  

  • u/None:

    It's original, as far as I know, and may even predate Worm.
    

    • u/Farmerbob1:

      Correct, Symbiote is original.  Started while Worm was being written.  Without Wildbow (or potentially, some other exposure to a good serial writer), it would have never been started.
      

  • u/ancientcampus:

    Oh, sorry. I'll edit the OP. On Symbiote's page, the author talked about writing fanfiction, and I discovered it via a link from Worm under "stuff by readers", so I jumped to that conclusion.
    
    For what it's worth, it didn't feel like fan fiction either. What an odd mental hiccup.
    

    • u/Farmerbob1:

      You aren't the first to make that mistake, and I am not at all upset that you did.  Carry on.  :)
      

• u/elevul:

  I disagree, especially regarding Mother of Learning. As long as there is a credible antagonist, those powerup chapters give depth to the story in a way that something like Pact, which kept tensions high 24/7, didn't.
  

  • u/kaukamieli:

    Well, if the antagonist can also creep in power...
    

• u/Sparkwitch:

  Yes, and becoming overpowered oughtn't always be the primary goal of a rational protagonist. Not every problem is a challenge to be overcome, sometimes there are hard moral or ethical choices to be made. Not every antagonist (in fiction, or in life) is a powerful enemy or an impending disaster, sometimes it's a reticent lover or a dire misunderstanding.
  
  A rational protagonist should be free to struggle on the inside as well as the outside. Not everything is threats and powerups.
  

---