scrape_r_rational/data/cache/3cxtro.md

[D] [DC] The Warring States Period (Naruto)

Post:

I'm writing a fanfiction set in the above era, partly because I have this idea for an epic and partly because I hate what most writers do with it (seriously. It's a warzone, not the Fluffy Bunny Period. Stop writing like it's set in Konoha). The first chapter is up but I don't want to link it because it has rather graphic and disturbing mature content.

So I thought I'd ask here for any logical ideas people have about the Warring States. Without giving away the plot, here are some I'm using:

• Butsuma and Tajima are not clan heads, at least not while Madara and Hashirama were meeting at the riverbank. It makes absolutely no sense for the clan head's heir to be regularly leaving camp without adult tails in an era when people would literally kill to have him as leverage.

• Despite appearances it is not, in fact, set in the Dark Ages. Just a few decades later people were working with DNA and had fridges, TVs and computers.

• The Senju and Uchiha aren't the only clans in the world. The rest of them were at war as well - with the Senju, with the Uchiha, with both, with neither. They don't spontaneously appear when it's time to found Konoha.

• The Senju are not good guys. Neither are they bad guys. Ditto for every other clan. And for the love of all things holy, the Uzumaki are not Naruto clones. They don't all like ramen, they don't all have verbal tics, and they're not all half brilliant and half oblivious.

• Yes, Hashirama is an idealistic visionary and lover of peace who has been fighting and killing adults and children since he was a child. He is a violent person. They all are. They live in a violent world. Speaking of which, being the only child with Wood Release in known history is not a solely positive experience. It's not easy to control. It has a high disaster potential. His chakra and cells are basically cancer to everyone else, so it doesn't make sense for him to be a medic either.

• Shinobi are not the only military force in the world. The samurai exist. The daimyou too must have military might of their own if even the ninja villages defer to them.

• Also, the Land of Fire is not the only country in the world. Like the clans, the other countries don't spontaneously spring into existence when it's time to found villages.

Creative use of the tailed beasts is a plus.

Thoughts?

Comments:

• u/MadScientist14159:

  My favourite explanation for the naruto tech level is that "The Era of Samurai" was actually modern Japan, but along comes Rabbit-sama and reduces everything that even vaguely threatens her to ash. And, like most dictators, immediately kills all the intellectuals to prevent uprisings.
  
  This means that we have the scattered remains of modern technology and science, but no modern weapons (which Kaguya wasn't sure she would be perfectly safe from if she allowed them to exist), and no one who remembers how to build them because all the teachers, scientists, and engineers were culled.
  
  Eventually, people start reverse engineering the principles of electronics from fridges and microwaves that Kaguya didn't destroy because they weren't threatening, and medical science has continued unimpeded (why would Kaguya fear the presence of *doctors*?), reaching a stage where genetics and cloning are much better understood than they are now, even if most of science has been lost and humanity hasn't quite recovered it yet.
  

  • u/chaosattractor:

    I don't know, 1000 years is a bloody long time for people to have just come up to the level of electronics we had decades ago. The "no-one remembers how to build them" plotline doesn't really work in our world anymore, what with the Internet and books and even the level of education - a fairly intelligent high schooler could put together a working computer if given the tools. Intellectuals no longer hold all the knowledge in society.
    
    Also their world didn't have a moon until Kaguya came along, so that's Earth pretty much ruled out. Besides, I think the Japanese would have noticed a giant ancient tree that bloomed and fruited only once every thousand years, no?
    
    Personally I think the "schizo tech" is very simply explained by the fact that technology develops according to necessity. A society with people that can accurately diagnose you by passing their hands over your body will never develop an MRI. A society whose livelihood is built on secrets, deception and murder would balk at the idea of the Internet. And so on. There is also the problem of the minds who invented/discovered certain things just not being there.
    

• u/Transfuturist:

  Link it, please.
  

• u/ToaKraka:

  I can't call myself imaginative, but:
  
  > The Senju and Uchiha aren't the only clans in the world.
  
  Maybe some filler-only clans could be featured? The ones who could turn into smoke, from Tenzou's flashback--the genjutsu-specializing Kurama clan (no relation to the Kyuubi)--the precursors of the Village of Artisans...
  

  • u/chaosattractor:

    OH GOD, NOT THE SMOKE CLAN. Anything but the smoke clan, anything!
    
    I'd almost completely forgotten about the Kurama clan! I can't remember her name but I know she could kill people with her paintings. That was such a cool ability. And now my mind is in overdrive trying to think of a plausible connection between them and the Kyuubi - it's too much of a coincidence to pass up, and it's been done in canon before (with the Kaguya clan).
    
    But even beyond filler, it's so disorienting when there's no mention of the Hyuuga, Sarutobi, Nara, etc. for thousands of words and then suddenly they're all happily trooping in to this village built by a man they've never had any dealings with apparently.
    

    • u/FuguofAnotherWorld:

      On the subject of the Nara, my favourite headcanon is that the Nara aren't actually lazy, they're napping all the time because they are tired. Why are they tired? Because they train every dawn and dusk because those are the optimal times for long shadows for their clan techniques. You'd nap during the day too if you were missing that much sleep.
      

      • u/chaosattractor:

        True! Why fight/train at noon when there aren't any shadows?
        

        • u/Transfuturist:

          [Please don't use this. It doesn't make sense.](https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/3cxtro/d_dc_the_warring_states_period_naruto/ct0ruzw)
          

          • u/chaosattractor:

            To you it doesn't, perhaps. That doesn't mean other minds can't make sense of it.
            
            >Why on Earth wouldn't they train when they are weakest to shore up their weaknesses?
            
            For one thing, you train when you can actually train. Just like animals hunt when they can actually hunt. Or do you ask why nocturnal creatures don't "train" during the day so they could hunt better at night? Or do you read in the dark so that you can see better in the light?
            
            >If a short shadow is really such a trouble to them then shouldn't they be making sure it is as small a liability as possible?
            
            Short shadows aren't liabilities, because their jutsu literally extends shadows. It's a matter of convenience and practicality. You go where your element is. Or should the water-inclined clans migrate to the desert so that they can overcome the liability of not being near water? 
            
            >How would they get hired for missions if they weren't able to fight in the daytime?
            
            Because all missions ever must be executed in the daytime. Because there's no advantage whatsoever to operating while your enemies are asleep or otherwise at their most vulnerable. Because there's no benefit whatsoever in being perhaps the only clan that's optimised to work at night. /s
            
            >Not to mention that Nara would then not be tired during winter.
            
            Oh yes I forgot, there are no shadows cast between December and February in the Northern Hemisphere. And the Land **of Fire** is such an arctic, snow-covered wasteland.
            

            • u/chaosmosis:

              I think you're making good arguments in a slightly more confrontational tone than is a good idea. As someone who loves being confrontational, I sympathize with your motives, but please try to be a little nicer.
              

              • u/chaosattractor:

                :( I got a bit defensive, I guess. The comment I replied you seemed rather dismissive and it got my hackles up. Thanks.
                

      • u/Transfuturist:

        Why on Earth wouldn't they train when they are weakest to shore up their weaknesses? If a short shadow is really such a trouble to them then shouldn't they be making sure it is as small a liability as possible? How would they get hired for missions if they weren't able to fight in the daytime? Not to mention that Nara would then not be tired during winter.
        

  • u/nerdguy1138:

    How would the Shinobi world even advance that far? They are in nearly constant, highly destructive war with each other. Knowledge would keep getting lost.
    

    • u/FuguofAnotherWorld:

      One story explained it as them using a random-ish-object fuunijutsu summoning spell to trawl the multiverse for useful things. Most of it was junk and old boots but occasionally they got a radio or something.
      
      It's not perfect but eh.
      

      • u/ToaKraka:

        That story was *Chunin Exam Day*. Some details are in [this chapter](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/3929411/50):
        
        > "All of the technology we use is summoned, then we use it until it breaks. It all comes out of parallel dimensions or stuff, like your giant toads. No one knows how to create those things, and we don't exactly have good control over what we get, either. We just try to make do with what does arrive. Asking for reliable large-scale equipment networks made out of the patchwork stuff that does arrive is out of the question. About the best we can do is keep our batteries charged. Heck, half of what we summon is mismatched socks!"
        

  • u/Transfuturist:

    > no relation to the Kyuubi
    
    Thank fucking God.
    

• u/KZLightning:

  One of my questions is the reason behind the warfare. Is this set in an alternate universe version of Japan? If so, then many of the drivers behind that feudal warfare must also exist. If not, then why exactly are they fighting each other?
  
  They cannot be fighting because "we have always fought" or because "we hate them". Those reasons would simply not sustain the fighting. People would get tired of war and stop fighting. So there needs to be some reason behind all of this.
  
  My other question is why we are supposing that countries exist at all? If various clans are all fighting each other, how could a country exist without immediately being attacked by the ninja within it? If they are not attacking it, then why do they permit such fighting to occur? It makes far more sense if the countries do not exist at all (or only in embryonic form).
  

  • u/chaosattractor:

    All that's been explained in the manga.
    
    The major clans in the Land of Fire fight because of their ancestors' feud. Sure no-one alive knew exactly why the fighting started, but by then there was enough pain on both sides to support the wars without a reason.
    
    Also, shinobi are a small population of the countries they live in. The countries were established long, long before the villages, possibly even before the first human gained chakra (that's also covered). The villages are astonishingly new - Konoha, the first of them, was formed only about sixty or so years before the current time - and they were the ones to align themselves with the countries and not the other way round. For instance the daimyou demands that they select a representative for him to deal with, and that's how the Hokage seat was born. 
    
    Civilians had already been using shinobi clans to fight their own wars for years, and that too was an element of the Warring States (IIRC someone even said that if one faction hired the Senju, the other would hire the Uchiha), so that too played a part in the constant wars. They were pitted against each other by outside forces, and they all preemptively tried to destroy each other to remain top military dog and ensure they were hired.
    

    • u/KZLightning:

      That does answer some questions, but creates others. A feud could create problems between clans, but historical examples of feuds show that they do not actually last very long. The Hatfields and McCoys lasted from the Civil War to the 1890's and similar feuds in history lasted for a similar length of time. If the feuding added an ideological element, then it might be able to last longer, but ordinary feuds that last from the mists of history are not realistic.
      
      New villages do explain their relationship to the world, but if chakra allows for supermen to exist, then they will automatically rule the world. The daimyou may "rule" them, but it seems more likely that such a rule is both limited and ceremonial. If he has access to his own chakra users then that calculus can change, but not by very much unless he actually has a significantly large private army of them.
      
      In a state of constant war, the danger is that the daimyou may hire an enemy if you fail to do what he requests. On the other hand, he is also in danger of dying if he requests too much. The ninja may not wish to rule because of the demands of training, but if the benefits are greater than the costs, they will rule anyway. In that case, they would replace the daimyou with their clan. The daimyou will know this and insure that the costs of replacing him are too great - probably by paying the ninja well enough and hiring his own bodyguards from a separate source.
      
      It is possible to use shinobi to fight your wars, but remember that it is much easier to kill the enemy civilians than the enemy army. So any war between the two groups would mean that the army to act first would target the civilians. The modern idea of rights and rules of war is out of place here.
      
      Any hiring of ninja during the era of Warring States would have to take these possibilities into account. So while it would be possible to temporarily hire ninja for a limited objective, general hiring would be much different. You might claim that all ninja were hired for short-term temporary assignments. But the problem is that this would very quickly change. The first country to hire ninja permanently would gain a huge advantage. Therefore, assuming no one is holding an idiot ball, everyone would have hired people permanently.
      

  • u/eaglejarl:

    Actually, this could work really well to explain the schizo tech -- there's a limited number of production facilities left and everyone is fighting to control them. It's basically the Battletech model.
    

    • u/KZLightning:

      That explanation could work. We do have to wonder why there are no cars or guns but there are TV's and refrigerators. It would also imply that the population either does not understand how the tech works or experts are in really short supply.
      

• u/ancientcampus:

  I'd be curious as to the relationship between governments and ninja clans. Are there feudal lords, as in the canon time period? What sort of military do they employ? Do they fight their own wars parallel to the ninja wars?
  

  • u/chaosattractor:

    In my fic?
    
    Yes, there are feudal lords. They have several choices in military forces: there are samurai, monks, classically trained ninja (in clans), and miscellaneous groups who use powers that aren't readily classifiable. The samurai form the bulk of the standing military. The ninja clans are essentially mercenaries for hire and their numbers are tiny next to the general population. The monks have taken a pacifist stance, but they impart their techniques to anyone who comes to their temples with an open mind and heart (don't try attacking them though. Seriously. It will not end well). The miscellaneous groups mostly cause trouble, though there is a faction that tries to stand up for the lower classes who've been constantly screwed over by the wars.
    
    The countries do fight their own wars, sometimes in parallel and sometimes not. When the wars aren't parallel it's a tense time for all. In my fic's very recent past one such conflict of interest led to a civil war - ninja against the government - in the Land of Wind, which has left them extremely weak. The Land of Earth wants to use the chance to overwhelm the country, but the Land of Fire's daimyou is sympathetic because his son is married to Wind's princess (and also he has a vested interest in the cuts he gets from Wind's gold mines). But most of Fire's clans are currently too busy clawing at each other to notice or care, and he can't compensate for their absence by deploying more samurai because the country would be open to possible invasion by Lightning or Water.
    
    ...yeah, this is why I loved this period in the first place. So many possibilities.
    

    • u/ancientcampus:

      I'd be interested to see the political ramifications where moderately-sized countries and some individual ninja clans are equal-sized players on the world field. How does this affect boarders and the like? If the Uchia clan is neutral to you, but lives inside your country, how do you arrange your army? It pretty much gives you an entire new front to defend. I'd expect powerful clans or alliances like Ino-Shika-Cho to act like geographical borders - two neighboring countries might draw their lines with some third ninja clan in the middle.
      
      So much of our political theory is built on several constants in the human condition, like "any single ruler can be assassinated" and the fact no one can oppress a nation solely on their own - you normally need armies for that. These break down in settings like Naruto.
      

---