scrape_r_rational/data/cache/4vyxt3.md

[D] Wednesday Worldbuilding Thread

Post:

Welcome to the Wednesday thread for worldbuilding discussions!

/r/rational is focussed on rational and rationalist fiction, so we don't usually allow discussion of scenarios or worldbuilding unless there's finished chapters involved (see the sidebar). It is pretty fun to cut loose with a likeminded community though, so this is our regular chance to:

• Plan out a new story
• Discuss how to escape a supervillian lair... or build a perfect prison
• Poke holes in a popular setting (without writing fanfic)
• Test your idea of how to rational-ify Alice in Wonderland

Or generally work through the problems of a fictional world.

^(Non-fiction should probably go in the Friday Off-topic thread, or Monday General Rationality)

Comments:

• u/callmebrotherg:

  I'm building an alien species that I'll be releasing into the Creative Commons, for people who want aliens but don't feel confident in their worldbuilding abilities or don't have the time (I previously did something similar with *The Culture Column,* which produced a good kickstarter later on). Is there anyone who'd be interested in the occasional idea bouncing? 
  
  I've written up a fair amount already, so you can check that out first to see if you'd be interested in this species (please forgive the occasional typo; it's only a couple of days ago that authors could edit their articles, and these are too old for that). 
  
  * https://www.rpg.net/columns/ideas/ideas5.phtml
  * https://www.rpg.net/columns/ideas/ideas6.phtml 
  * https://www.rpg.net/columns/ideas/ideas7.phtml
  

  • u/MagicWeasel:

    I love reading about hyptothetical aliens, so I'm really excited to read this series! I'll give you my thoughts, but I have no special expertise.
    
    ideas5:
    
    I love the idea of sexual dimorphism, and the laughing gas on the planet seems like a cool touch. I'd love a more detailed breakdown of atmospheric gases, but to be honest I'm sure leaving it out is better because it allows the detailed science to be ignored, and all an RPG player really cares about is if you can breathe on it. I'd like to know if the oxygen concentration is higher or lower than Earth though, because that would have implications for things like fire. 
    
    Communicating by sound seems fine, emoting by scent is cool and prevents them from being too normal. 
    
    The miscommunication about war styles seems interesting. I feel like humanity would not have been aggressive at the alien species for capturing their own men though, I think people would be more charitable than that (but I'm a charitable soul, I guess). My feeling is because of the movie *Mars Attacks* where humanity was willing to assume that the martians freaked out about the dove, forgive them for all the murdering, and invite them to speak at a political assembly. So maybe not the best source. I'm interested about how the conflict was resolved and how communication was even established at all!! 
    
    > ll species can be subdivided into two further broad clades: Unaforma and Dupliciter, which are distinguished by whether they . 
    
    WHETHER THEY WHAT??? oh my god I want to know :(
    
    ideas6:
    
    YES LEARNING ABOUT THE SEXUAL DIMORPHISM. 
    
    You describe the head, as though there's only one head type for both genders. Based on the carnivore/herbivore diet split, I'd expect the females to have more specialised feeding hardware as well as 'hunting' hardware (unless there's an ecological reason that this isn't necessary)
    
    > This structure is horrible for communicative purposes, but that's okay: they actually talk through their nostrils. 
    
    I love this turn of phrase.
    
    ideas7:
    
    I like the allusions to the planet having different cultures, in the differences in property ownership and as well to the allusion to racial differences. I think the planet of hats trope is annoying and I'm glad steps are made to avoid it in some way. (Planet of hats makes me think of the episode of Stargate where they accidentally gate to an unknown second gate in Antarctica, and Carter climbs out of the cave, sees snow as far as the eye can see, and reports back that they are on an ice planet).
    

    • u/callmebrotherg:

      > I'll give you my thoughts, but I have no special expertise.
      
      If you PM me an email address then I can Share the google doc that I'm using as I develop them further. 
      
      > WHETHER THEY WHAT??? oh my god I want to know :(
      
      Whoops! Whether they exhibit extreme sexual dimorphism of the "filling two separate niches" variety . Which is stupid and hard to justify, I've since decided. 
      
      > You describe the head, as though there's only one head type for both genders. Based on the carnivore/herbivore diet split, I'd expect the females to have more specialised feeding hardware as well as 'hunting' hardware (unless there's an ecological reason that this isn't necessary)
      
      I commissioned some concept art for them, incidentally. Here's a piece from when we were [deciding on the head](http://i.imgur.com/lHR4XVs.jpg). I settled on using #1 and #2, the former being for males and the latter for females. You can see how the females are more robust, with spiky ridges and a sort of crest that the males don't have. I wasn't sure why the artist added those frond-like attachments, but I liked them and decided to make them chemosensitive. The dots over the eyes on #2 are heat-sensitive pits. Both of these are larger on the females because, as juveniles, they have to hunt alone and usually do so at night. 
      
      3 and 4 are members of the same clade. The first lost its chemosensitive fronds for some reason, while the latter lost a single pair and became, apparently, an ant-eater sort of thing. 
      
      The image that you see near #4, with an underside view, is a depiction of the radula. Jaws as such didn't evolve on this planet, though there are jaw-like structures and alternate adaptations in various creatures. In the aglo clade, the tongue has a bony underside which is used to seal the radula shut when it isn't being used, but in one predatory lineage this has turned into a weapon (you wouldn't be too far from the truth if you imagined the pharyngeal jaws from *Alien*). 
      
      Aglos don't have that adaptation, but they *do* have strong arms. Pre-technological aglos typically killed through strangulation (and the males, at least, hunted partially like [Hawaiian caterpillars](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5qijI--v9E&index=2&l), with part of the group laying in wait while the others flushed out prey). As you can see in [this piece of concept art](http://i.imgur.com/NuPDr6c.png) their forearms are on the thin side. I am unsure if I am going to keep this and say that they developed this way for finer manipulation once tool use became important, or give them thicker arms in the future. 
      
      > I'd love a more detailed breakdown of atmospheric gases, but to be honest I'm sure leaving it out is better because it allows the detailed science to be ignored, and all an RPG player really cares about is if you can breathe on it. 
      
      Unfortunately I am but an egg in the fields of science, and going into too much detail about the atmosphere will likely betray my ignorance too much. 
      
      > I'd like to know if the oxygen concentration is higher or lower than Earth though, because that would have implications for things like fire.
      
      Probably not too much different from Earth's, but I'd imagine that it's just a little bit less concentrated. 
      
      > I feel like humanity would not have been aggressive at the alien species for capturing their own men though, I think people would be more charitable than that (but I'm a charitable soul, I guess).
      
      I guess it all depends on who was in charge at the time!
      
      > I'm interested about how the conflict was resolved and how communication was even established at all!!
      
      I'm not yet sure how communication was established, but we were probably the ones to figure out what was going on. The Agloanikoi, for their part, are not too far from Eliezier's Baby-Eaters and are perfectly acquainted with the concept of reasonable mistakes based on insufficient knowledge.
      
      They still insisted on a hostage exchange, though, and that's probably never going to end. We're also probably stereotyped as untrustworthy unless you have something over us (at least for a few generations, anyway).
      
      > I think the planet of hats trope is annoying and I'm glad steps are made to avoid it in some way.
      
      I plan on making a series out of this, and one of the first things that I decided was that there would be a section where I'd describe how different types of people fit into the culture. If I were writing one for Klingons, for example, then it'd talk about Klingon taxi drivers and Klingon doctors and idk Klingon janitors or something, and how they fit into this warrior-centric culture. Do they conceptualize themselves differently? Do they feel good about themselves? How do other Klingons view them?
      

  • u/Tetrikitty:

    Re: the reason for the flower wars,
    I think "to pass the time" isn't really a good explanation for an adapted trait. What you're probably looking for is "as a conspicuous display to signal relative intelligence". Ie that they're not doing it because they're  bored (this can theoretically explain every activity, and thus fails to explain any activity), but because doing well in war shows that you're intelligent and you'd make a good ally, so they participate in order to compete for prestige.
    

• u/Cariyaga:

  I've finally been pushed over the edge to the point where I'm writing a (probably non-rational) Undertale fic. For those who know the setting, do you think there would be any affect on the appearance of a human that absorbed a monster's soul?
  
  e: Spoiler warning in discussions further down, for those who don't.
  

  • u/callmebrotherg:

    Ooh! First off, have you decided what distinguishes monster souls from human souls, and if this has any other effects? 
    
    We know what monster souls are made of, and that they fall apart soon after death, but not what human souls are made of.
    

    • u/Cariyaga:

      Well, I've gotten the impression that there are two primary things that distinguish monster souls (and this is a general statement; Boss Monsters seem different in this regard) from human ones: that because of their lack of physicality, their bodies and soul are inseparable enough to be considered one and the same for *most* purposes, and the metaphysical Determination that humans possess that allows them to overcome the limitations of their bodies. 
      
      That this Determination seems to be stored partially in the physical based on Alphys' experiments is curious, and curiouser still that Undyne seems able through sheer force of will to generate her own beyond that which her body can handle. She is an exceptionally interesting case, and shows that DT isn't solely limited to humans. Additionally, she seems capable of producing *additional* mass to replace that lost in an attack -- even to the point that she might otherwise have died -- though this does have limits which need be explored.
      
      Most monsters fall apart instantly upon reaching zero health; the exceptions seem to be those that have the same drive to keep living -- in that moment -- that humans are renowned for.
      
      Regarding your actual questions (my mind got away from me for a bit there):
      As to the first, primarily it is that a monster's soul provides a blueprint for and generates their body. This is also the reason why monsters often seem to wear their heart on their sleeves. While the 'shell' of their body doesn't leave them exactly open, their soul -- the 'culmination of [their] being' is far more exposed than in humans. This is also what leaves them more open to the emotion behind attacks than humans are. As far as its other effects, I suspect that in the world of Undertale, that same openness is what lends monsters prowess with magic.
      
      While it is said that monster souls are made of love, hope, and compassion, the same book states that 'the absolute nature of SOUL is unknown.' So I'm not sure that we do really know what monster souls are made of.
      
      The one thing that I haven't been able to figure out in any capacity is why monsters are capable of absorbing human souls, and vice versa, but are incapable of absorbing the other.
      

      • u/Aabcehmu112358:

        This is true and pure speculation, but I believe that humans and monsters being unable to absorb souls of the same type are not for the same reasons. For monsters, I believe it is because they lack enough metaphysical strength (including Determination) to hold the magic of more than one soul together. Human souls, meanwhile, simply retain enough agency post death to exit from the soul-group. These thoughts inspired by true pacifist spoilers and no-mercy spoilers.
        

      • u/LiteralHeadCannon:

        I suspect that Undyne did not generate her own determination, but rather had a small quantity injected into her by Alphys - a tiny dosage to avoid the horrors of the determination experiments. Because of the small dosage, it only activates when things are at their worst - in a minor way when Undyne is dying at all, and in a major way when the human has proven themselves omnicidal.
        

      • u/Iydak:

        A note on undyne's determination: It does not actually seem to be able to save her from death, only delay it. In the neutral route, if you reduce her to zero health, she pulls herself together with determination, but even if you stop attacking, she still keeps falling apart anyway, and eventually melts. No idea how that effects speculation, but it's worth noting.
        

        • u/Cariyaga:

          That is correct. In genocide, however, she seems to stabilize to some extent (though for obvious reasons we don't get to see the long-term effects of her transformation there), and the reasons for that are less obvious.
          
          Though... the thought occurs that if she uses green magic for utility, and it seems to also be used for healing (though it could be a meta-level thing) based on the color of attacks that "heal" you, it could be a combination of her highly enhanced determination and a more pure expression of green magic that brought her back from the brink.
          

    • u/Aabcehmu112358:

      Human SOULs (I.E. hearts)  are made of a combination of the seven traits (Determination, Patience, Bravery, Integrity, Perseverance, Kindness, and Justice), but contain very little Magic. They do still have some magic, though, because at least seven Wizards existed at some point in the past.
      
      Anyway, a human who has absorbed a monster soul likely wouldn't change much on a physical level, since human bodies have true substance rather than just being a magical projection of the soul. But the increase in Magic could give them a visible aura or nimbus of a sort, appropriate to the magic of the monster they killed (such as a fiery aura, taken from either Tauriel or Asgore).
      

      • u/Cariyaga:

        Shoutouts to /u/Sophiera whom is exploring magics based on those seven traits with great depth in [The Golden Quiche](http://archiveofourown.org/works/5296460). I quite adore that piece of fiction, and it's part of what inspired me to this. If you've any contributions, feel free to chime in! We're a welcoming community, and I in particular could use your opinion.
        
        I have been rolling around the idea of human mages. The basic thought is that monsters (or their presence), to greater or lesser extent, release magic into the environment which other souls may acclimate to and absorb. Maybe, anyway, still haven't decided on just how they'll work.
        

        • u/Sophiera:

          Oh mai I've been summoned. Thank you for liking my work so much :D
          
          For magic in general, I have a guidebook called ['The Magus Compendium'](https://archiveofourown.org/works/6902341). Written so that I don't mess up my own setting.
          
          For stuff that I have yet to record in the Magus Compendium itself that's relevant to the current discussion....
          
          
          * All Souls both human and monster have Love and Compassion as part of their SOUL's building blocks
          * Monsters have all seven traits (which includes Determination) in very low quantities. They're usually in perfect balance and that's why they're 'white'. 
          * Human SOULS on the other hand are not balanced. They tend to have a trait that dominates everything else. This imbalance may be caused by uneven distribution of Determination.
          * Complimentary Determination acts as a booster.
          * Edit: Forgot to mention this. Fixed typos and terminology errors. Both humans and monsters can ignore the Love and Compassion which lead to antisocial behaviour. Monsters are less inclined to ignore this than humans. Humans are also way more likely to take this antisocial behaviour to the extreme.
          
          
          The absorption of Souls is officially called a 'Merge' in Magi circles. A Merged Entity's priority of control goes to the living host. If a monster absorbs a human's soul, the monster is the one with primary control. If a human absorbs a monster's soul, the human is in control.
          
          This does NOT eliminate identity. In a merger, they live together in the same body as a union of two spirits in one. Ideally, this is the end result of a very close relationship (siblings, soulmates, lovers, ect).
          
          A Merge can also exchange control if one party gives the control to another. For example, the monster may hand over their body's controls to the human if the human had the knowledge required to solve the problem. Imagine very technical work such as computer hacking.
          
          Everything goes out of whack if you're dealing with excessive levels of Determination. A SOUL with lots of Determination can force their control outside of the norms, because that is the nature of DT itself.
          
          As for physical change. I personally think that a Merger will always have a physical change. How much? It depends on their state of mind. A Merged entity living in peace can look very normal, with some extra markings at most. But that same Merged entity in combat can have some very fanciful cosmetics.
          
          Also, a Merged Entity tend to take on the colours of the SOUL they absorbed. If it's Orange, the design takes an orange hue. If green, they take a green design and so on so on.
          
          Did I miss anything?
          

      • u/Muskworker:

        > They do still have some magic, though, because at least seven Wizards existed at some point in the past.
        
        Being able to attack with an empty gun may be a more recent example of human magic.  (Arguably the ability to SAVE is, as well, though this is also based on Determination.)
        

        • u/Aabcehmu112358:

          Attacking monsters with anything besides the Real Knife is more complicated than doing literal bodily harm, IIRC. Monsters' bodies are susceptible to emotional attack, and can be hurt and die from the intent-to-kill just as easily as the weapon itself.
          

          • u/Muskworker:

            Aye, most of them are not serious weapons. Going back to sources...
            
            > Because they are made of magic, monsters’ bodies are attuned to their SOUL. 
            If a monster doesn’t want to fight, its defenses will weaken. 
            And the crueler the intentions of our enemies, the more their attacks will hurt us. 
            Therefore, if a being with a powerful SOUL struck with the desire to kill... 
            Um, let’s end the chapter here... 
            
            ...I suppose it depends on whether "*struck* with the desire to kill" is precise language or not.
            

            • u/Aabcehmu112358:

              Yeah, the language seems like it could either mean that a literal attack does need to happen on some level, but could also mean something less literal, such as gesture accompanying the desire, or just the desire to kill be focused intentionally rather than being incidental.
              

              • u/Cariyaga:

                The fact that monsters still exist at all, having been on the surface with humans (being humans) would seem mild evidence in favor of an actual blow being necessary to accompany the desire to kill. Otherwise there would not have been anything that could be called a war.
                

                • u/Aabcehmu112358:

                  At the same time, the underground has been mostly de-militarized for a generation, possibly more. We don't exactly know what a war-ready underground looks like.
                  

  • u/Chronophilia:

    You could make the case either way.
    
    My interpretation is no, a human would not physically transform. Monsters can do that because their bodies are insubstantial and held together by magic and hope - Flowey, Undyne, and the Amalgamates exhibit some shapeshifting even without human souls. While human bodies are made of ordinary matter, so they can't be disassembled and rebuilt in that way.
    
    But in the end, it depends on the nature of bodies and souls, which is quite a bit up to interpretation.
    

    • u/Cariyaga:

      Almost simultaneously with yours, I responded to someone else in this thread, which should give some insight as to my thoughts on these interpretations. Insofar as my original question goes, I'm considering a very subtle change -- a different hair texture, to the touch.
      

      • u/Chronophilia:

        My question is, how did this situation with the complementary nature of humans and monsters arise in the first place? What's evolution playing at, giving them each traits that are perfectly balanced by the other, and then giving monsters the ability to absorb human souls? Clearly, nature or design has invented a very clever solution to some problem, but it's not at all clear what that solution is.
        
        It's almost as if monsters and humans are *meant* to fuse their souls, and the whole business with the war between the two races was not just a terrible mistake but a violation of the natural order.
        
        (Cracktheory: *Undertale* is part of the *His Dark Materials* multiverse, and monsters are an alternate-universe version of daemons.)
        

        • u/LiteralHeadCannon:

          There's a general idea I get from some of Undertale's flavor that monsters are in some way living human ideas - meme elementals of some sort.
          

• u/Dwood15:

  If someone were to make a rational high fantasy rpg series of games, what are some traits you would look for in the way the game actually plays? I've decided to play with Unreal Engine a bit and have some ideas for a story, but short on actual gameplay. One thing i was thinking about was making the whole thing a meta 4th wall experience  where the player is from another world and the characters know it, then basing the experience off that. 
  
  I'd like ideas i could implement and potentially sell.
  

  • u/trekie140:

    I've never played it, but people tell me that Planescape: Torment analyzed and played around with a lot of RPG tropes.
    

  • u/GaBeRockKing:

    Either specifically set up a leveling system designed to be exploited to hell and back by clever players, that *has* to be exploited to progress (so some sort of way to drop skills/levels would also be needed) or don't include the standard xp/level thing at all, and make it more puzzle style, with abilities that need to be used in tandem and intelligently.
    

    • u/Dwood15:

      That's actually a good idea. I like the first one. Like, make the game with a system that's arbitrarily complex, but once it's figured out I could have various abilities abuseable to create certain effects.
      
      I'm sure that if I were to make a normal system, people would find various things about it easy to abuse on the first go, and then instead of nerfing the OP stuff, working with the weak things and figuring out how people could abuse them.
      
      I would want equal opportunity abuse unless I hated particular classes. :P
      

      • u/Cariyaga:

        I enjoy Divinity: Original Sin's terrain system a lot. You can use spells to create, for instance, rain, and then use another ability to electrify a puddle.
        

    • u/Chronophilia:

      Just generally question every little mechanic as you add it. HP bars, for example, serve a particular gameplay purpose. Is it appropriate to the experience you're trying to create?
      

      • u/GaBeRockKing:

        I'm not Dwood15, man :P
        

  • u/Chronophilia:

    That's all rather vague and abstract. Did you have any more specific ideas or questions?
    
    What genre will it be? "High fantasy RPG" encompasses everything from Dark Souls to Nethack.
    

    • u/VivaLaPandaReddit:

      Science based dragon mmo.
      

      • u/Chronophilia:

        Har har.
        

    • u/Dwood15:

      I kept it vague and was hoping for some out there answers as my idea is fairly general and based around the story a lot. I was expecting more general 'I really liked X from game ABC, but Y made it suck, so if you did X without Y, it would be cool, but you could do it like Z to make it fit a rational system.' 
      
      A dynamic system with freeform spell creation (a la some of the Minecraft mods) is way beyond my abilities, but one day I would like to work on one.
      
      That said, my system would be points-style with spells/abilities/manapool all being affected by the number of points you put into it.
      

---