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Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality Chapter 113: Final Exam
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u/ancientcampus:
*"If you kill me, every ssingle person on thiss world will die, excepting you and hermione."* [because I won't magically cure death, somehow, eventually]. (More of a conversational gambit to buy time)-
u/Ashrand:
Nice, that's a possible piece to our puzzle. It only buys a little time since Voldemort's gonna ask for an explanation, but yeah.-
u/ancientcampus:
Possible follow up: *"Will not ssay how. Know only that eventss are already in motion that will kill every other persson on this earth, that I alone may prevent. I sspeak truth.*-
u/Endovior:
Interesting, but untrue; Voldemort has the True Horcrux, and can himself arrange to prevent arbitrary deaths. The True Patronus may be the only thing that can reverse death, but since Harry knows that Voldemort has the True Horcrux, he cannot truthfully claim that he alone can prevent death. The fact that Voldemort is probably unwilling to implement a universal True Horcrux based resurrection system involving sacrificial babies or something in no way diminishes the fact that he could choose to do so.- u/ben_sphynx:
Voldemort will run out of horcrux' once everyone else is extinct; making more requires killing someone.
- u/ben_sphynx:
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u/cowsruleusall:
So, Harry has his wand and absolutely nothing else, with 60 seconds before his imminent death (unless he starts sharing with Voldemort). What capabilities does he have? * Partial transfiguration * Command over Dementors * Knowledge of science * Buying time with explanations * Patronus 2.0 * Retrospective time travel For partial transfiguration, this takes a long time to set up, as referenced in the whole Azkaban arc. I have a hard time imagining a circumstance in which he used that 60 seconds to both stall his death AND partially transfigure something, without Voldie catching on and killing him. There are no Dementors anywhere nearby, and I have no idea whether or not it would be possible to partially transfigure something into a Dementor. If Harry wants to buy time to explain things, the more complicated and nonmagical the better. Explaining partial transfiguration would probably take the longest. We've already seen that Parseltongue is extremely limited in vocabulary, so to have Harry explain would probably take a very long time. Voldie could, however, just have Harry list whatever texts he used to teach himself, then kill Harry and read them himself. As for science-y things, we've already discussed about how hard it would be to partially transfigure air into things like antimatter. As much as I'd love to see him turn the earth under his feet into antimatter specifically targeted to the area immediately underneath each Death Eater, I don't know if that's possible given the radical non-homogeneity of earth and the focus/concentration it would take to extend/make antimatter without it immediately annihilating absolutely everything nearby. We've seen how the Patronus 2.0 can be used to restart a dead person. If Harry casts a Patronus 2.0, and Voldie tries to kill him, can Harry just have his Patronus go inside him like he did with Hermione, and keep himself alive that way? I need to think on this more. Will continue to update this list of capabilities and ideas as I re-read, but final exams on Friday mean that I won't get to work on this as much as I want :(-
u/Bobertus:
> So, Harry has his wand and absolutely nothing else It's not quite as bad as that. You forgot that Harry still has his glasses. That should be a big help, right? Maybe he can use the lense to set fire to lord Voldemort.- u/None:
Oh, he doesn't need that. Love sets people on fire.
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u/Ashrand:
> Harry has his wand and absolutely nothing else No, he also has his pouch of items, which should be full of objects he's accumulated throughout the year.- u/None:
He'd have to get it, first, without being killed. Remember, he's naked except for his glasses.
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u/E6440:
I see two ways harry might play this out. First one is for Harry to convince Voldemort he needs or wants to learn partial transformation. The second one is to remind Voldemort that Dumbledore seemingly was present at two locations at once. Here it is key to suggest that the mirror might be involved as the facilitator of this and not a time turner. **The Partial Transformation Way** We would like Harry to aim for both him to explain and do a practical demonstration. If successful Harry will have bought himself some more time while he explains how partial transformation works and why it is so hard to do. Secondly by allowing Harry to show a practice Harry obtains a chance of doing magic without being killed by all of the Death Eaters surrounding him. Now I see two things Harry could transform which could be effective. One is a ball of fusion the other a black hole. Given we do not know the exact limits of transformation this might be a stretch, yet there are a whole lot of things which points towards it being possible. First off a fusion reaction requires a whole lot of pressure besides heat. The pressure itself can by my understanding itself ignite a fusion reaction. Now how we produce that pressure could be interesting. I don't see creating pressure from outside pressing in to the the solution. Rather manipulating gravity would probably be the best solution. Also making the field where gravity is manipulated small should make things easier power requirement wise. Having the fusion reactions close to Voldemort would incinerate him from the heat alone or at least damage him enough to kill his body. If not the heat the radiation produced by the heat would achieve similar results. If Harry is shielded by Voldemort he should have a chance of surviving instant death and then surviving the whole ordeal if we bet Granger wakes from being exposed to the same attack. She would not die from the attack and be able to provide Harry with some healing. The black hole would work much like the ball of fusion as if it is created close enough to Voldemort he would be sucked in and his body would be destroyed. The same would be true for the Death Eaters. The problem with this plan is Harry would need to secure himself first which might be hard to explain. Being able to make in practice small suns and black holes might also be enough to foreshadow how Harry could possible end the wold. Though defeating death seems like a better guess. Now Voldemort would probably ask Harry questions to make sure of his intentions which Harry should be able to answer truthfully by being smart about it. The whole point of the answers would be to subtly misdirect Voldemort's attention. Let us say Voldemort asks "Will you try to kill me?" just to make it as hard as possible to make a response as possible. A passable answer could be "I am not going to try and kill you with this transformation." This of course requires Harry to be able to view destroying Voldemort's body as not killing him. It would require Harry to think of Voldemort not as spirit and body unified, rather as Voldemort only being a spirit. I will try to get back to this answer later, I have no more time to write atm :(
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u/Kodix:
Oh, EY. You bastard. I had other things to do this weekend. -
u/traverseda:
How good is he at partial transfiguration that this point? The stone opens up some self-transfiguration options. You can transfigure a duck without knowing how a duck works... So transfigure a copy of your brain over top of voldemorts (and then get shot a bunch). Transfigure a copy into the ground? It couldn't have magic and would quickly die when your soul flees. Probably. I doubt that the solution is going to have something with such a high failure rate. Hmm. Use it to kill everyone somehow? The answer "Transfigure everyone presents spinal fluid into francium" seems a bit silly. If the answer is "Use my magic to kill everyone" I'll be suprised, and anything that is fast enough to work in this situation would be pretty deus-ex-machina-ey. EY has presumably already written this, and it has a lot of parrelels to the AI box experement. Evidence that the solution is going to be talking and not much else. Knowing that you're saying the truth should be considered and advantage (and truth is one of the assumption made in the AI box game). "The air is filled with carbon nanotubes. Everyone here will die if you make the transiguration permanent, and they will die of transfiguration sickness if you don't. Only I have the power to save them, and I doubt you could learn the skill in time, presuming you did manage to convince me to teach you.". Of course producing enough carbon nanotubes that people would die of transfiguration sickness if it wore off.... Still, not something I think would save you. Just buy some time.-
u/ajuc:
> "The air is filled with carbon nanotubes. Everyone here will die if you make the transiguration permanent, and they will die of transfiguration sickness if you don't. Only I have the power to save them, and I doubt you could learn the skill in time, presuming you did manage to convince me to teach you.". Blackmail won't work - Voldemort has backup, Hermione is invulnurable, and everybody else are expandable. -
u/ancientcampus:
> transfigure a copy of your brain over top of voldemorts holy s***- u/Endovior:
That would be an interaction between Harry's magic and Voldemort. Causing such an interaction might be worth trying, but not until after the Death Eaters have been dealt with.
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u/alexanderwales:
[Planning Thread](http://www.reddit.com/r/HPMOR/comments/2xiabn/spoilers_ch_113_planning_thread/) on /r/HPMOR which should hopefully act as a clearinghouse for trying to solve the problem. -
u/Geminii27:
I'm surprised that no-one has spotted the Chekov's Gunman. Harry is focused on Voldemort. Everyone else is focused on Harry. *Who is focused on Hermione?* Oh, wait, I'm sorry, let me rephrase that. Who is making sure that the *immortal, self-healing, unicorn-and-troll-powered, horcrux-having, extremely smart, Death-Eaters-have-been-commanded-not-to-harm-or-hinder-her* Hermione has stayed asleep through all the posturing and hissing and Crucio-screaming? Come to think of it, I *wonder* where Hermione's original wand might possibly be at this moment, *hint hint disguised as something expected to have an enchantment on it, hint hint*. -
u/okaycat:
I think that Voldemort is actually intending to kill Harry. This isn't just one of his deeper schemes to let Harry escape and fake is defeat etc. I think he's intending on extracting as many secrets as he can from Harry and killing him. He's too afraid that Harry will fulfill the prophecy and destroy the world. Harry will have to use partial transfiguration in order to escape. Maybe he can transfigure carbon nanotubes threads or something from the air and impale stab everyone in the brain or something. Can't wait for the next chapter!-
u/Jace_MacLeod:
>I think that Voldemort is actually intending to kill Harry. You *think*?!-
u/alexanderwales:
There have been some subtle hints to that effect. You have to really read between the lines though. -
u/renegadeduck:
It seems most likely that Voldemort wishes to kill him in the next minute. However. Why does Harry still have his wand? Why are his things not protected by the death eaters from *accio?* It would be trivial for Voldemort to order one of his followers to take Harry's wand and glasses, to protect this things, and perhaps even to add other magical protections. I dislike feeling that Voldemort has made stupid mistakes.-
u/Empiricist_or_not:
This is LV testing Harry, I think. -
u/xamueljones:
I think Voldemort is being cautious of magical resonance which is why he doesn't try casting any spell on Harry. But he might be so cautious that he is worried about the Death Eaters' Dark Mark qualifying as magical resonance if any Death Eater touches Harry. Of course this doesn't explain away him not ordering Harry to throw away his wand or be shot.
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u/okaycat:
*shrugs* It has been pretty obvious for a while now that Voldemort has given up on Harry becoming a partner in his plans. There are too many philosophical differences between the two of them. It's just hard predicting what Voldemort really wants because he's so good at misdirection.
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u/None:
If Harry hasn't shown Quirrelmort the nature of partial transfiguration yet then that is certainly a good opener. At the very least due to its complex nature it'll take time to explain, especially if he originally answers in Parseltongue which seems to have a lot of syntactic constraints. The question is does he just use that to buy time or does the partial transfiguration itself have the potential to serve as an immediate offensive measure against 36 death eaters and QM? Maybe he could transfigure something into antimatter, but then the question is how does he escape the ensuing blast?- u/Magnap:
Quirrelmort is no more...
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u/SometimesATroll:
He can't transfigure air. He can transfigure his own leg, though, since his wand tip should be resting by his leg. -
u/MyNegromancer:
The only thing I can think of is Harry explaining the dementors trick while buying time to transfigure the air in everyone's ears present to lava to (relatively) instantly kill them. Then again, Harry's morality sorta prevents that. Then again again, do we have to factor in Harry's moral code?- u/TastyBrainMeats:
He's abandoned the Code of Batman at this point. People have died.
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u/ketura:
See, here's the thing. Why on *earth* would he first go through all the trouble of resurrecting Hermione, upgrading her body to insane levels, and creating a horcrux if he's just going to kill him? Why explain his lore and his plans? Why even give him a chance to talk? As much as this entire scenario is Mr. Yudkowsky's handiwork in trying to force us into a situation with so many restraints we can only collaborate to think our way out, I think too that that's the motive of Voldemort himself, to force Harry into a spot where he really has to prove himself as V's equal.- u/callmebrotherg:
Voldemort is going step by step. "What do I do if Harry can't be killed? Now, what do I do if that doesn't work?" and on and on. Basically, taking out the least-resistant wheels from under the prophecy and moving in from there.
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u/ancientcampus:
"Exhaustive list of Harry's Abilities" thread - let's try to list every spell, skill, trick, and option he has available to him. Put items of dubious usefulness together if you like, but if one sounds particularly good, feel free to list it separately.-
u/ancientcampus:
Innervate [on Hermione?] Somnium Prismatic Wall Stunning hex Sonorus Quietus Fridgidiero Ooogety Boogety (bat-summoning spell)- u/torac:
> Ooogety Boogety (bat-summoning spell) If they count as living they might be used to soak up spells including avada kedavra.
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u/narfanator:
As demonstrated through Partial Configuration, some magic (notable, the only form on wordless magic Harry has seen the "inside" of) functions with "consensus reality" effects. That is, by changing his mind about what reality is, Harry was able to do something new. This demonstrates one Harry ability, and one Nature of Reality: - Harry can change his consensus reality effects - Consensus reality matters Given that we also have a stack of evidence that there is a poor correspondence between even *brains* and self, I'm thinking it's worth exploring Consensus Reality rules that, if discarded, open up possibilities. -
u/Happymuffn:
Patronus Charm: blocks killing curse, communication, blinds dementors, potentially can blind those looking at it.- u/ajuc:
Also apparently it can resurect.
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u/Happymuffn:
Light spell, levitation, partial transfiguration (silent)(motionless), unlocking spell, first year shield spells, ventriloquism spell, memory charm (all memories including subject's left arm), create water, dispel magic (up to power = to Harry's own), dispel own magic (silent)(motionless), occlumency (silent)(motionless), warming spell, shield breaking spell (first year), random spells from a book of pranks- u/Magnap:
You forgot memory charm (all subject's memories including the color blue).
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u/ancientcampus:
Prismatic Sphere -
u/torac:
Throwing it out here too: Harry can command Dementors. Their abilities are not known, but their limits might just be what people expect their limits to be. They have no sensory organs, so there is no obvious reason for their sensory range to be limited. They have no obvious mode of locomotion, so who’s to say they can teleport or travel at light speed? -
u/Happymuffn:
items: bag of holding (presumably, with any reasonably sized objects that Harry could reasonably get his hands on, within reach), time turner, invisibility cloak (didn't hide from Quirrel), mechanical watch, Quirrel's corpse, random magic rings (from Quirrel's corpse)
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u/DerSaidin:
Exam requirement: "evade immediate death" Solution: start describing partial transfiguration (or whatever) at about 50 seconds; take longer than 10 seconds Also wouldn't hurt for the question to explicitly note Voldemort will continue to be rational, and cautious. -
u/ben_sphynx:
Harry is pointing his wand at the ground. Or possibly at the whole world. Is partial transfiguration limited by volume?-
u/Solonarv:
Limited? Not that we know of. But transfiguration takes longer on big things, and this is also true of partial transfiguration. -
u/ancientcampus:
Oooh, nice one! As far as I've seen - yes it is, but his volume can be atomically thin. Back in the prison experiment, it took him a while to transfigure a very thin slice of azkaban's wall into oil, so I don't think he could split the world in half in 60 seconds.- u/Endovior:
Even if he could (dubious due to gravity!), he's magically prevented from doing so; he literally just swore an Unbreakable Vow to not destroy the world.
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u/aeschenkarnos:
Magic may be frame-of-reference dependent. I'm not a copy of you; you're a copy of me. Which of us has a better grip on reality? -
u/None:
I think we need to approach the solution as being a power Voldemort cannot know. Science isn't that, not even the whole "true perspective on the Universe" thing, because Voldemort *could* know that eventually. The most likely: 1. Love 2. Utter refusal of death Any other possibilities? -
u/BSaito:
Possible weapon against Voldemort: Obliviate. Obliviate everything. He's taken great pains to protect himself against death, but we may be able to erase everything he is and destroy the villain without killing him. Of course, we need to get ourselves in a position where we can both do so and still come out of this situation alive. -
u/Farmerbob1:
After a moment of panic, it struck me. Carefully phrasing my words in Parseltongue, I asked a question. "What happens, Tom Riddle, when another Tom Riddle dies, enters the Horcrux network, and the dead Tom Riddle happens to be able to both control Dementors and cast an advanced form of Patronus that does not require a wand?" I paused. "If you kill me, I win. If you don't kill me, you will eventually lose. You have been very careful to provide a bribe to me to let you live, so the threat of killing me is clearly misdirection. You know you cannot kill me without me destroying your Horcrux network, and you have provided me with a living Hermione to keep me attached to life." "However, now I am at a strange point. It makes a great deal of sense that I should kill myself now, and use the Patronus casting to consume the life energy within the Horcrux network until there is only one Horcrux left, and then get assistance in raising myself. I could do that easily enough with a Patronus." "Perhaps, you might do something for me to prevent me from killing myself so I can end your threat? Confund yourself to learn to care about people. Then use the Philosopher's stone to make it permanent, and finally, vow to never attempt to alter the Confunding." EDIT ADD - I already used my response to the chapter over at Fanfiction.net for a different suggestion. If this seems plausible to someone, feel free to take it, make it yours, and post it over there if you like. -
u/ajuc:
Start talking about partial transfiguration to buy time (quantum mechaniscs 101 included if needed), in the meantime transfigure air some place nearby into compressed sphere of CO. When ready talk like you're searching for words, take a big breath, release the compression. Hermione should survive.- u/Happymuffn:
Harry hasn't been able to transfigure fluids that we know of including air. Granted the only time we've seen him try was back at the start of the year but I don't think we should rely on that. I also don't think transfiguration allows one to hold gases in compression without some solid shell also being transfigured around it.
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u/narfanator:
I think a big question here is "what kinds of magic, if any, are available?". Answer might be "none". Partial transfig takes too long, everything else requires motion. That seems to leave to possibilities: * Realizations that allow for re-access to magic * Talking your way out of it In other words, no *known* magic is useful in this situation. Does that seem reasonable? Does anyone remember a form of magic that doesn't require motion or time? -
u/ancientcampus:
"Destination, Determination, Deliberation!" He's never apparated before, but I'm sure he's read how. There's no stated magical requirements, just danger of splinching, and that can be treated medically, to say nothing of the sorcerer's stone on hand.- u/Endovior:
Good idea, but... > Harry cannot develop any new magical powers or transcend previously stated constraints on them in the next sixty seconds. Has he been shown to have read something about Apparition? In particular, those words? If so, that's a feasible plan, and might be attempted... but I can't recall any such incident, and thus doubt the possibility. That said, the fact that the Death Eaters Apparated in does not imply that there is no Anti-Disapparition Jinx in effect. Even though Harry is not known to be able to Apparate, it's the kind of thing that'd be a sensible precaution for Voldemort to have put in place. It'd be better than dying, but it'd be unwise for Harry to spend his minute trying to figure out Apparition from mere reference to the process. It's not a terrible plan, particularly since he could go straight for his Time Turner if it worked, but there are probably better ones.
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u/Adjal:
[Posing of solution] Tell that prophecy of destroying Dark Lord is foretelling that he shall overcome death. Tell that he wants to hear apocalyptic prophesy because it may hint at other knowledge he has that can prevent destruction of world. Upon hearing it, reveal that "tearing the very stars in the heavens" is referring to start rending. Step 3: **** Step 4: profit!