scrape_r_rational/data/cache/2yzsxn.md

Thoughts on "A Link to the Past"

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• u/None:

  Nah, *plainly* you need to make the player sit through a sequence of moral philosophy classes, and then dispense the Pendants iff the player can write a good final essay justifying a realist stance on virtue ethics.
  

• u/rumblestiltsken:

  So ... I'm not gonna claim LoZ all makes total sense, but for game thematics the first dungeons aren't awful.
  
  In the Eastern Palace, Link must be able to face down a horde of knights without his sword and shield, instead relying on his bow as the enemy charges towards him in formation. For this he receives the pendant of courage.
  
  In the Desert Palace he cannot progress unless he can lift boulders, and at the end of the dungeon he receives the pendant of power.
  
  At the Tower of Hera he uses the Moon Pearl to retain his human form, after being shown his "True Self", a pink bunny rabbit. After this ordeal he receives the pendant of wisdom.
  
  I'm pretty happy with that video game logic, myself.
  

  • u/callmebrotherg:

    I'm not overly familiar with the Zelda games, so is the pendant of power actually about physical power? 
    
    Because the other two seem like virtues, and I can see how those virtues are legitimately demonstrated in those tests, but unless "power" is about physical power, I don't see how the boulders relate to that at all. And if it *is* all about physical power, how is that a moral virtue?
    

    • u/None:

      They aren't moral tests. They're physical, intellectual, and emotional tests. The moral test comes when you try to lift the Master Sword. And if you are evil, it *obliterates you*.
      

    • u/rumblestiltsken:

      The item that let's link lift boulders is called the glove of power... So, yeah. In world power can mean physical strength.
      
      Why do they have to be *moral* virtues? Surely the weilder of the master sword must be strong enough to defeat their enemies? 
      
      At least, I would have that as a prerequisite.
      

• u/ishaan123:

  I think this is Halo effect - "Those of great skill and intelligence are generally also wise and worthy people" is a heuristic most of humanity lives by. That's why people keep bandying Einstein's quotes. People mistakenly think that because he was smart, his opinion holds more weight for everything in general, even morality.
  
  Truth be told, it's not a *terrible* heuristic.  We like writing genius sociopaths into fiction, but in real life they aren't incredibly common, and the brain abnormalities leading to abnormal morality judgement usually comes with cognitive deficits as well.  (Not to mention, the bulk of "evil" misdeeds are probably more irrational behavior than they are a result of abnormal moral judgement.) That said, there are plenty of people who are both smart and morally iffy, and *power* does seem to have a relationship with questionable morality.
  
  So...what would *you* do, if you wanted to seal something powerful away for generations after your death, and you *did* want it to be rediscovered eventually, but only by the wise and good and worthy?
  

  • u/ArmokGoB:

    Huh, this question actually turns really interesting, if you take it seriously. Suppose you *do* have the resources to build this type of protective dungeon full of magic puzzles, but that any social institutions are unlikely to survive. Sort of a related problem space to what they are planing with scaring people in 10 000 years away form nuclear waste.
    
    One idea I come up with, is set up instructions and some lesser repeatable reward for some evil behavior, like human sacrifice. Or maybe some tool that is useful for only selfish purposes. Then the actual thing you were trying to hide i only given to the one who disrupts/destroys these evil things.
    

    • u/OffColorCommentary:

      Your dungeon could include the ghost of a previous adventurer - actually a pre-built part of the puzzle and not a real ghost (if such things exist).  How you treat the ghost could have some nuanced kindness and morality checks to it.
      
      Depending on the nature of what's hidden in the dungeon, plain old Zelda-style puzzles built around cognitive biases might actually be a good idea.  However good and kind someone is, everyone can make mistakes, and if I'm going to hand them an artifact of immense power I'd feel safer knowing they're free of, say, the Positive Bias.  The more you cross off the list the less likely they are to do something catastrophic.  And the more of these hoops they have to jump through, the more they'll probably realize you had a specific concern here.
      

      • u/callmebrotherg:

        You know, that'd be an interesting twist: Instead of trying for tests which are designed to keep the artifact out of the hands of evil people, you try for tests which are designed to keep the artifact out of the hands of somebody too stupid to realize that [insert catastrophe] would be bad for zemself, too. 
        
        Yeah, it might get into the hands of a world conqueror, but if you did it right then that world conqueror is at least smart enough to keep the world running. 
        
        (and maybe even smart enough to see how long-term selfishness can look remarkably like a given amount of selflessness, since happy citizens are productive, &c &c).
        

      • u/derefr:

        Reminds me of the *Thor's Hammer* and later *Glastonbury Tor* puzzle-dungeons in Stargate SG-1. They *were* also keyed against some biometrics to prevent known-nonfriendly intelligences from raiding them, though.
        

  • u/linkhyrule5:

    [tongue in cheek] I would first do all the hard work of creating a safe wish-granting device that actually did what the wisher meant, and then tell it to find the most noble and courageous person in the land.
    
    And then it's just a matter of giving him the combat experience and puzzle-solving ability (and experience in general) required to triumph.
    
    (but no seriously the Triforce does most of the heavy lifting.)
    

• u/derefr:

  "DRM Dungeons" (places where the keys are hidden alongside the locks) seemingly only serve to slow looters down, sure. But I don't think they're meant to be be free-standing.
  
  Instead, I always believed that, somewhat like an Indiana Jones movie, these were mostly *temples* in the literal sense—places that were guarded by groups of warrior-priests trained in combat, trap construction, monster husbandry, etc.
  
  The dungeon itself is meant to be, effectively, a lock: the people who have the key can get in, while the people who *don't* either choose an easier target, or sit there picking it for long enough that the rightful owners can be alerted, arrive, and dispense with them. Which does happen for some dungeons!
  
  In others, though, the rightful owners are long-dead. The dungeon wasn't actually *designed* to keep people out forever without its active maintainers. The maintainers were required to reset and refill the traps, breed and feed the monsters, patrol the halls, *keep the keys on their persons somewhere that isn't within the dungeon*, etc. Without them, it's just a leftover set of decaying traps that have yet to wear out or run out of charges. These sort of "dungeon ruins" make perfect sense as DRM dungeons.
  
  By analogy, imagine an abandoned prison complex. The cell doors are locked, but there are keys to them just left hanging on a hook in the guard tower. It would look, if you thought this was a place *purposefully* constructed to exactly this plan, that they had simply intended to have would-be attackers scale the guard tower, take the keys, and then use them to get further inside. That seems like a DRM dungeon. And yet, it was never a dungeon at all. When it was an actively-inhabited installation, you'd never have managed to scale the guard tower; you'd have been shot. The keys would be on a guard with another guard watching their backs and ready to alert a whole squadron. Etc.
  

• u/DCarrier:

  The trope they're referring to is [Only Smart People May Pass](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OnlySmartPeopleMayPass).
  

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