scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/1z2snv.md

## [D] The glaringly irrational element in the anime/manga Shingeki no Kyujin (Attack on Titan) (No spoilers past first chapter)

* Author: u/Prezombie *
* URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/1z2snv/d_the_glaringly_irrational_element_in_the/
* Score: 11

* Created: 2014-02-27T11:00:16

### Post:

If you've already seen or read Attack on Titan, pause for a moment and try to consider the irrational design with the human nation.

For everyone else, Attack on Titan is a manga/anime about a walled human nation fighting for survival in a zombie apocalypse. Only, the zombies are replaced with titans, humanoid creature which behave like zombies, but range in size from 3 to 15 meters (and rarely, bigger) in size. The army has developed steampunk grappling lines to emulate spiderman in response. 

[The link here is a not-to scale map of the nation.](http://25.media.tumblr.com/461a1266b2f0a44f5f5ba3c03952a74f/tumblr_mrx5qpWuHO1sobh27o2_1280.jpg)Note that the small protrusions on the wall are attached cities, and not to scale, only being about 1km across.

At the start, we don't know who built the walls, or how, but one thing that is glaringly obvious to me is that whoever designed the walls was an idiot. If an attack somehow got through a "corner" of the outer wall, titans flood into the area between that wall and the next, cutting off all four outer cities. Same goes if they manage to break through the gates, which only exist at the walled cities, instead of losing 1 city, they lose 4.

To me, an optimal shape maximizing both land surrounded (to maximize possible stable volume) and guaranteeing at least the same number of defensive fallbacks as the canon design, while assuming a limited amount of possible walls built. This design would have other advantages as well, once you think about the repercussions.

I'll save my answer for a day, unless someone else guesses it well. I'd love to see what other designs people would consider.

### Comments:

> **u/None** [+11]  (50 minutes later)
> 
> YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  LET'S HAVE THIS TALK, GUYS!  *Attack on Titan* was trying so damn hard and still is only-kinda-actually smart.
> 
> Now, first remark on the walls, [Attack on Titan](#s "they're almost definitely actually a trap.")  My approach would be to keep the outer wall roughly the same (how much *can* you minimize surface perimeter in 2D while enclosing a fixed amount of area?), but build the inner walls to criss-cross and thus provide a "cross" structure.  I would also want to build in more "criss-crosses", because *plainly* if a Titan can break through the outer wall I should expect the inner walls to merely *slow it down* rather than actually stop it.
> 
> The *other* issue with the Wall structure in AoT is that it's hierarchical, intended for a hierarchical social structure consisting of the richest elites from the Old World (ie: the exact kind of people you find on /r/rational, /r/hpmor, and LW: professionals, entrepreneurs, executives, technologists, and other high-income brats).  Their design is extremely stupid for defending against Titans, but very smart for projecting the social structure onto the map.

>> **u/AmeteurOpinions** [+3]  *Finally, everyone was working together.* (an hour later)
>> 
>> Yeah, the wall design was absolutely not made with the goal of protecting the common people. 
>> 
>> OP, I think this is a case of thinking the wall is irrational only because you don't know what it's utility function is. There may be a very good reason indeed for it to be that way (well, at least, good for a few people in power) but it has not been explained yet. And probably won't for a few years.

>> **u/Prezombie** [+3]  (2 hours later)
>> 
>> Sure, it's fairly obvious that the design of the walls is part of the mystery, but the setup has the potential for a very interesting mathematical puzzle if you prune the setting down to platonic ideals.
>> 
>> The titans could behave with simple laws. At fixed intervals, titans can break the wall in one place, essentially deleting one line segment from a simple graph. They attack whichever outer wall protects the most land, or a random one from all the options with equal results. They don't plan multiple attacks out, they won't attack a spot to open up a wall for the next attack which would be decisive. Corners where three or more walls touch would be considered as unbreachable.
>> 
>> If you idealize the situation to Territory = population, the "score" of the map would be the total territory-years it promises, adding together the total remaining area each iteration, divided by the total length of all the walls.
>> 
>> The number of distinct territories has to be finite, so no fractals.
>> 
>> a circle results in a score of ( pi \* r^2 )/(2 pi r), or simply pi/2pi if r is 1. which is obviously 0.5.
>> 
>> A circle with a single wall across the center would have an area-time of (1.5 pi r^2) and a wall length of (2 pi r)+2r. (1.5 pi r^2)/[(2 pi r)+2r] is about [](https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%281.5+pi+%29%2F%5B%282+pi%29%2B2%5D)
>> 
>> Does adding more radial walls converge the score or diverge it?

>>> **u/voidacity** [+3]  (11 hours later)
>>> 
>>> you are forgetting that titans are attracted to high concentrations of people, hence the highly populated protrusions that act as a buffer for assaults.

>>>> **u/RMcD94** [+1]  (2 days later)
>>>> 
>>>> Can't be that attracted if it took them 100 years (only on episode 2)

>>>>> **u/sMACk313** [+1]  (2 days later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Not sure what you mean by this....  Just because there hadn't been an incident within (or at) the walls in 100 years doesn't mean the titans aren't attracted to high concentrations of people.

>>>>>> **u/RMcD94** [+2]  (2 days later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Why not?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If the titans have been around for a 107 years and the walls were built a 100 years ago there should definitely have been titans surrounding the gates waiting for people.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Since we're repeatedly told this is the last bastion of humanity there is no other higher concentration of humans in the world.

>>>>>>> **u/sMACk313** [+1]  (3 days later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think there have been titans outside the walls, there just never had ben an incident within the walls, i.e. No colossal titan basically.  The survey corps were still getting fucked up everytime they would go out. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Just curious, where did you get the number 107 from?  I think the titans have been around for much longer than that. They call it year 850 so its prob been at least that long since humanity was almost destroyed.

>>>>>>>> **u/RMcD94** [+2]  (3 days later)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> >Titans (巨人 Kyojin?) are the primary antagonists in the series. They are a mysterious race of humanoid giants that appeared roughly 100 years ago (107 years is the most specific number given during Eren's training) and rapidly exterminated humanity to the point of near extinction. Their origins, overall numbers, and how their physiology works remains a mystery at this point in the story.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> From the Wiki, I can't remember what episode it was but I did remember the specific number.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It was really surprising when they said that, it was only 7 years between titans appearing and humanity building huge giant walls.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Yeah but if titans were constantly banging on the outside of the walls you'd figure you would know.

>>>>>>>>> **u/sMACk313** [+1]  (3 days later)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Damn... That is suprising....

>>>>>>>>> **u/dysfunctionz** [+1]  (3 days later)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I was confused about that as well, it seems like 100 years is way too short a time span for the origins of the Walls and pre-Titan history to be so shrouded in mystery.

>>> **u/AmeteurOpinions** [+2]  *Finally, everyone was working together.* (2 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Have you finished the animanga up to its current point?

>>>> **u/Prezombie** [+6]  (5 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Yeah, but as I said, the stuff I was posting is less about debating the nature of the walls, and more about trying to find the optimal wall layout assuming you actually built the walls to protect humanity.

>>>>> **u/AmeteurOpinions** [+1]  *Finally, everyone was working together.* (6 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Right. I was concerned because the "method" used to create the walls has significant implications.

>> **u/Jinoc** [+1]  (an hour later)
>> 
>> I'm not sure what kind of strategic scenario the cross structure would prevent. If the Titans manage to break through the outer wall and you don't expect the inner walls to stop them, then humanity is fucked anyway and adding a few more hours or days won't change much.

>>> **u/None** [+1]  (an hour later)
>>> 
>>> I was assuming I can only construct three walls when I proposed that, and "delay death" does seem to be the only thing they do in *Attack on Titan*.  If we take into account the story's information, also, the Colossal Titan and the Armored Titan [](#s "are Titan Shifters, making their attack an infiltration by disguise").

>>>> **u/Prezombie** [+2]  (2 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Well, rationally you'd be limited by the total wall's distance, not an arbitrary number of walls.

>>>> **u/Jinoc** [+1]  (2 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> >and "delay death" does seem to be the only thing they do in Attack on Titan
>>>> 
>>>> with the information about the colossal Titan I agree, but shouldn't we assume they didn't know this when they built the walls ?

>>>>> **u/None** [+1]  (3 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> No, because [](#s "the walls are *made of* Colossal Titans").

>>>>>> **u/Jinoc** [+1]  (5 hours later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ah, ok. I knew that [](#s "the walls were made of Titans") but had missed the part where they say [](#s "they're made of Colossal ones").

>>>>>>> **u/sMACk313** [+1]  (2 days later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Wasn't ever said specifically...  From their size it is assumed.  Just had an idea...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> [possible spoiler](#s "Does that mean at one time people had abilities like Eren's?  And that they were sacrificed to create the walls or something?")  I have only watched the show btw...

> **u/rationalidurr** [+5]  *If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight!* (a day later)
> 
> The most irrational thing noticeable from the very beginning is the lack of 
> suspension springs on the soles of feet of 3DMG users. The ability to soften falls, extend normal jumps and create a jump+grapple combo over flat planes for easier and maneuverable travel is priceless. And springs date from at least the 15th century so this isn't something outside of time reference.
> 
> EDIT: Another point from early on
> Recognized in story that using 3DMG is very stressful on the body, so we can safely assume users get sweaty.
> Sweat + cold wind from all the flying around = common cold. All the user could really go for some thicker pants, full body jackets and scarfs.

>> **u/dysfunctionz** [+6]  (2 days later)
>> 
>> Tbh the 3DMG makes no sense at all from a rationalist standpoint. There's no way they could carry enough compressed gas to launch the grappling hooks (hard enough to embed in walls deep enough to hold a human's weight, from tens of meters away) more than a handful of times. They very clearly operate on Rule of Cool.

>>> **u/rationalidurr** [+2]  *If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight!* (3 days later)
>>> 
>>> The super gas (hehehe) is a plot device, but even then its hardly used to its full extent, for example the best idea would be to improve aiming weapons and just stick razor sized metal blades all over the ropes, shot at Titan, reel in, and you got yourself a swiss cheese Titan.

>> **u/Prezombie** [+3]  (a day later)
>> 
>> Springs would be nice, but now that you mention it, Helmets and pads would be no-brainers.

>>> **u/AmeteurOpinions** [+5]  *Finally, everyone was working together.* (a day later)
>>> 
>>> [Indeed](http://www.reddit.com/r/AskScienceFiction/comments/1oznvg/attack_on_titan_why_dont_they_all_wear_helmets/).

> **u/RMcD94** [+6]  (2 days later)
> 
> Just started watching it, on episode 2 now after the titan just charged through the gate like nobodies business.
> 
> The titans can't climb sheer walls right, otherwise they would have done so, so seems to me the smart thing is to build a ditch.
> 
> All the titans would be stuck at the bottom of the ditch you could try and drop rocks on them or something, since nothing damages them tying them down seems like they only option. People need to use ropes more.
> 
> How could they have a food shortage when they have so much green land available for farming on? And if only 500 people escaped from the town (which seemed pretty damn big for a town for me) that's practically nothing for a town and shouldn't be a big deal. The boats would have fit way more than 500 people anyway.
> 
> Also surprised people didn't just go all nomad since the only time we saw a titan run was trying to get through the gate.

>> **u/sMACk313** [+4]  (2 days later)
>> 
>> I agree they seem to be a little single-minded with their weaponry.  Especially if they have had 100 years of "peace".  Couldn't they have developed some badass nets or something over those years?  Oh yea, and they have gun powder and explosives... what about mining (placing mines not digging) the surrounding areas??

>> **u/AmeteurOpinions** [+1]  *Finally, everyone was working together.* (2 days later)
>> 
>> There were a lot more people living in between the two walls, and a titan's ordinary walking speed is almost as fast as a galloping horse.

>>> **u/RMcD94** [+2]  (2 days later)
>>> 
>>> Mongols were nomads with horses, and it's only abnormals who run as fast as galloping horse I'm pretty sure since the horses were barely outrunning the titans in the field. 4m etc would never be able to match the speed if the 15m ones that are abnormal can barely do it.
>>> 
>>> Now on episode 21 btw.
>>> 
>>> Still of the opinion that cannons are pointless and next to useless (got to hit the back of their neck so let us use something that takes forever to manuever).
>>> 
>>> Where are the regular armies, the legions etc because equip them with climbing axes and you'd take losses but you'd still kill some. If you lose 20 ordinary people for one titan I'm saying you still come out ahead since they don't breed. 
>>> 
>>> Where the hell are the bows and crossbows for killing the vitals from distance?
>>> 
>>> I would have cavalry as a primary fighting force, armed with spears and bows for long range, nets, lances, tripwires to slow them and get them on the ground for your rare 3d guys.
>>> 
>>> Having long hair as a titan is still dumb as having it as a fighter, limiting your field of view.

>> **u/JosephLeee** [+1]  (11 days later)
>> 
>> > All the titans would be stuck at the bottom of the ditch you could try and drop rocks on them or something, since nothing damages them tying them down seems like they only option. People need to use ropes more.
>> 
>> I cannot upvote you enough.

> **u/None** [-2]  (4 hours later)
> 
> [deleted]

>> **u/None** [+2]  (5 hours later)
>> 
>> SPOILERS.

>>> **u/Prezombie** [+2]  (5 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Sigh, I would have assumed the (no spoilers past first chapter) would have been clear... >.<

>>> **u/SnowGN** [+0]  (9 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Nope. This is all in the anime. (Edit: Crap, the thread wants no spoilers past the first chapter....ah well).

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