scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/2flmb8.md

## [BST]What would a rationalist Evangelion look like?

* Author: u/Tlide *
* URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/2flmb8/bstwhat_would_a_rationalist_evangelion_look_like/
* Score: 8

* Created: 2014-09-06T00:48:21

### Post:

Evangelion seems like like such an obvious choice for the rationalist treatment - a protagonist who could have handled his situation much differently with a different outlook, lots of mysterious and seemingly "mystical" elements to analyze, technologies like [Evangelion](#s "cloning and general AI") not being exploited to their full potential - that I find it odd nobody's tackled it yet. So, what would happen if Shinji really did "embrace the universe and shine like a legend"? Would he get rich by establishing a prediction market for Angel attacks? Modify the Magi system to allow it to recursively self-improve? Create a revolutionary new source of energy based on AT Field manipulation? None of these possibilities seem all that outlandish in a world where the main character gets to control a [Evangelion](#s "god clone cyborg") on a regular basis.

Your thoughts?

### Comments:

> **u/Escapement** [+12]  *Ankh-Morpork City Watch* (an hour later)
> 
> To do this you'd have to drop or modify a lot of Eva's core assumptions. Fundamentally, as presented in canon it don't really make a great deal of sense for a happy and well adjusted individual to be an Eva Pilot - robots were creating forcefields powered by the social insecurity that prevents us from being fully honest with the people around us, etc. And a lot of the best part of NGE was exploring a bunch of messed up protagonist characters, and making them happy and well-adjusted seems sort of pointless - why not just pick one of the (many) happier or less messed up mecha animes instead of creating yet another Shinji in Name Only? If I wanted to portray really awesome characters who tend way more toward well-adjustedness, but inserting rationality for irrationality in the fic, I would consider rewrite TTGL but instead of guts and gar and kicking reason to the curb substitute in using reason and logic in a spiraling out of control recursive fashion (we didn't rise above the other animals in reality because of our super guts and gar but instead by endurance and intellect).
> 
> The robots in NGE were portrayed dramatically differently in different parts of canon  - it seems vaguely OK to have robots which are basically legged WW2-style tanks, or robots which are basically pro wrestling with each other, but mixing and matching the two doesn't make a whole lot of sense usually. 
> 
> The nearest thing to a different outlook and bizzarely awesome and (more) well adjusted characters in current NGE fanfic is probably [Nobody Dies](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/5579457/1/NGE-Nobody-Dies). It has some good ideas, but it is extremely long (slightly longer than HPMOR, and less actual stuff happens) and it loses sight of the plot thread hard after a while and starts to really like alternate/parallel universe clones/doubles/etc far too much in an excessive fashion that is difficult to follow if you aren't actually taking notes about what's going on. Nonetheless, it has a bunch of 'more AI stuff' and 'characters being awesome and generally well adjusted instead of complicated and malajusted' and so forth.

>> **u/gryfft** [+3]  (a day later)
>> 
>> > Fundamentally, as presented in canon it don't really make a great deal of sense for a happy and well adjusted individual to be an Eva Pilot... a lot of the best part of NGE was exploring a bunch of messed up protagonist characters...
>> 
>> Quick counterpoint: What if it was written entirely from Gendo's perspective? Up to and including him justifying his neglect and abuse of his son for the good of humanity. Perhaps another perspective on the Human Instrumentality Project. Plotting with/against SEELE.  [](#s "In *Rebuild* SEELE is apparently composed of uploads/brains in vats, some interesting material there too.")
>> 
>> Others in this thread seem to be pointing out that it'd be next to impossible to write rationalfic set in this universe due to all the supernatural elements, but... isn't that exactly what HPMOR did?

>>> **u/rthomas2** [+2]  (3 days later)
>>> 
>>> Seems like the idea of changing the POV character is a wise one.  If a core aim of rational!fic is to take an irrational universe and, by placing a rational character into the mix, showing that it can be solved, then keeping the defining features of the world as close to canon as possible would seem ideal.  And since Shinji is very much central to what makes Eva the world/work it is, keeping his personality and flaws intact seems wise.  After all: wouldn't we all like to see some sense driven into Shinji?  And if that's to happen, our protagonist should be someone else.
>>> 
>>> Personally, I think it'd be best to have Kaji as our protagonist, since his aims are already closely aligned with trying to oppose SEELE.  Or perhaps even Kaworu, who was arguably the most insightful character in the series: if instead of practically trying to get killed, he strove to avert tragedy, it would be a far more interesting show.
>>> 
>>> I'm not too keen on Gendo himself being the protagonist, for the reasons I stated above; however, even he *could* be a good choice, if instead of just striving for his own version of instrumentality, his aim was true transhumanism: not a hive-mind-soup, but truly ressurrecting Yui and stopping death.  Still, I'd much rather see him be an antagonist, at least to start with: that way I'd get to see him converted to sanity, and feel the catharsis that would come with him overcoming his flaws from the original work.  So my pick would be a Kaworu or a Kaji that actually manages to put things right.
>>> 
>>> And given the many continuities of the show, combined with the fact that at least some of them imply all continuities to exist within past/future timelines/other dimensions in the show's multiverse, it'd be great to see a fic that asserts itself as the "true/good" ending of the entire multiverse: the solution that all the other incarnations of Eva were destined to culminate in, since eventually, rationality *will* win out.  Even if it takes multiple life cycles of the universe itself.

>> **u/lehyde** [+2]  *Nudist Beach* (20 hours later)
>> 
>> > The nearest thing to a different outlook and bizzarely awesome and (more) well adjusted characters in current NGE fanfic is probably Nobody Dies .
>> 
>> For completeness, the other NGE fanfics that have been discussed in this sub: [And If That Don't Work?](http://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/2b8r0b/iq_evangelion_by_sunshine_temple_and_if_that_dont/) and [Human Immortality Project](http://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/27iqqt/rthsf_human_immortality_project_rationalist/).
>> 
>> And of course *Shinji and Warhammer 40k*. About that one... is there somebody here who has read this till the end? I stopped reading at chapter 25 because it seemed the author had run out of ideas. (Shinji traveling to a monastery in the mountains to train telekinesis?) So is the second half of the story as good as the first?

>>> **u/Escapement** [+5]  *Ankh-Morpork City Watch* (20 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I read through to chapter 40 or so (the then-current ending). As it went, it got worse and worse - if you gave up because of quality deteriorating, I wouldn't retry it, the writing did not pull out of the downward spiral.
>>> 
>>> As far as WH40k crosses go, I liked [Thousand Shinji](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/3946501/1/Thousand-Shinji) more, even though it was more mary-sue-ish than SAWH40k. The sequel to Thousand Shinji, [The Open Door](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/4320933/1/The-Open-Door) starts off sort of OK, rapidly deteriorates into Mary Sue wanking, and then manages to actually pull out of a downward spiral into something halfway readable with the Forgotten Realms etc. segments, at which point just having reached something interesting the fic promptly dies, abandoned forever, leaving me with extremely mixed feelings.

>>>> **u/lehyde** [+1]  *Nudist Beach* (20 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks!

>>> **u/Iconochasm** [+2]  (23 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I read to around 44-45.  It got difficult to read, to understand what the hell was happening (disclaimer, I've never seen any Evangelion).  There were a few moments that matched the parts I loved from the early story ("Is there any part of you that *isn't* a chainsaw?!"), but it seemed to be spiraling out of control and abandoned.

>>> **u/bbrazil** [+1]  *NERV* (a day later)
>>> 
>>> > is there somebody here who has read this till the end? 
>>> 
>>> I'm caught up, it kinda lost itself quite a few chapters back.

>>> **u/Kir-chan** [+1]  (19 days later)
>>> 
>>> >Shinji and Warhammer 40k
>>> 
>>> I couldn't even get through the first 10 chapters. Shinji was way too OP, with none of the issues that made him interesting.

>> **u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer** [+4]  *Utopian Smut Peddler* (4 hours later)
>> 
>> This.
>> 
>> But it isn't just about the characters not fitting well with rationalist fiction. The world doesn't make sense, either -- the basic background isn't rational *itself*. This means you'll have to do a lot of handwaving, and early on.
>> 
>> It is full of religious references that are never answered, prophecies that are never challenged but apparently work, and technology that is as bad as any Star Trek technobabble (if not worse). I'm not sure why one would want to bother, as the characters, background, technology, and driving plot elements would all have to have significant overhauls.
>> 
>> Why not just write a new story in the spirit of NGE? Someone presenting such a story would instantly get my eyeballs by simply saying, "Elevator pitch: NGE meets rationalist fiction in an original, post failed technological singularity world."
>> 
>> I love fanfic, but I don't think this is the right take on the source material at all.

>>> **u/Empiricist_or_not** [+4]  *Aspiring polite Hegemonizing swarm* (12 hours later)
>>> 
>>> >why one would want to bother.
>>>      For the same reason HPMOR was written.  It's a story that is strongly valued by many people, and because it is valued by them there is much banging of heads on hard objects because "Arrgh that doesn't make any sense"
>>> 
>>> That said your idea of rebooting into a less nonsensical universe is one worth looking at. Though, then there comes the why question for the rampaging Kajui of the week. I personally would recommend anyone planning on tackling this look at some of the applications thought up in Shinji and WArhammer40k in building mega projects and maybe Aeon Entelechy Evangelion's setting for ideas.  Nobody dies is probably a good source for ideas as stated above.

> **u/MadScientist14159** [+2]  *WIP: Sodium Hypochlorite (Rational Bleach) Eventually. Maybe.* (23 hours later)
> 
> Kind of like Human Immortality Project? I guess? It's basically NGE with shinji replaced by HJPEV, and everyone is smart and competent, but *still* somehow manage to get hit by stray idiot balls from time to time which slightly diminishes the quality.

>> **u/Gold_Leaf_Initiative** [+1]  (4 days later)
>> 
>> 1. Take random show or book
>> 
>> 2. Sub HPJEV as lead character
>> 
>> 3. Enjoyment

> **u/totes_meta_bot** [+1]  (5 days later)
> 
> This thread has been linked to from elsewhere on reddit.
> 
>  - [/r/evangelion] [X-post from r/rational about Eva](http://np.reddit.com/r/evangelion/comments/2g54z4/xpost_from_rrational_about_eva/)
> 
> *^If ^you ^follow ^any ^of ^the ^above ^links, ^respect ^the ^rules ^of ^reddit ^and ^don't ^vote ^or ^comment. ^Questions? ^Abuse? [^Message ^me ^here.](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fmeta_bot_mailbag)*

---