scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/2jbfz5.md

## [D] [Q] What's up with Superman??

* Author: u/Kishoto *
* URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/2jbfz5/d_q_whats_up_with_superman/
* Score: 5

* Created: 2014-10-15T13:57:58

### Post:

I read "The Metropolitan Man" by alexanderwales (If you haven't read it, it's an absolute must read, and takes no Superman back knowledge to read), and it got me thinking about Superman in a rational way. So here's my question.

If you, or someone you were very close to, was the Man of Steel himself, at his prime power level (aka can push planets, move FTL, hear through space, etc.) how would you maximize the good Superman did, based on your own personal, moralistic reference point. 

Now, how would you maximize the evil you committed? And human extinction is too simple (and easy) of an answer. You CAN say it, for all I know that's your absolute upper bound of evil, but let's be creative here. (Hint: 8 billion people dying instantly because Supes punches the Earth isn't as bad as the many billions more that would suffer over a longer, more protracted anti-human campaign by the Man of Steel)

As of now, I don't have any obvious limiting factors on this question, but I expect to find a few based on the insanely intelligent commentary of this sub reddit, so let's do this! :D

EDIT: 

- Superman is not hyper genius level smart. He's normal, above average smart, as in he could get into Harvard or MIT with effort, but is most certainly not the next Einstein or Jor-El. He understands a lot about Kryptonian technology, but in the way an average computer geek understands our technology. Enough to use it, and fix some things on his own, but not nearly enough to fabricate his own from scratch, or rebuild things without schematics.

- This iteration of Superman has no time travel ability beyond (and this is stretching it) the time dilation we currently understand that can occur at speeds approaching the speed of light.

- For the sake of not breaking the game, let's cap Superman as moving, at max speed in space, at 3c. And, to further reduce game breaking, once he pasts the speed of light, the only effect increased speed has is increased distance traveled per unit time. As in (and this is NOT compatible with real physics, but roll with it) the force he generates at 1c is the same as at 2c and 3c. But he will get to Star X 3 times as fast at 3c than at 1c. 

- Superman is still vulnerable to magic, but in this context, he's on our Earth. Where there is no magic, as far as most of us can tell. For the sake of the argument, magic is energy, just of a format that isn't accounted for in Superman's defensive physiology. So different forms of energy possessed by extraterrestrial or extradimensional beings could pose a threat. This would be a case-by-case thing, based on how said being's "magic" worked. For example, an ordinary, physical fist propelled by magic wouldn't  hurt Superman. A knife, who's cutting edge is coated in/composed of an extradimensional energy sufficiently anomalous enough to bypass Superman's physical protections would hurt Superman. 

- Kryptonite isn't found on Earth, as shards of Krypton wouldn't be able to make it here. The planetary explosion of Krypton was natural, so it wouldn't propel any of the earth of Krypton at sufficient enough velocities to actually reach the Earth. Superman arrived in a FTL craft designed by Jor-El. Even accounting for the millions of years it would take to travel at the maximum speed an explosion could propel an asteroid at, that still assumes the trajectory was just right to navigate the spanning galaxies, while also avoiding any collisions. However, a Kryptonite substitute can be created through nuclear fission experiments. It would be a material that, by random chance, has radiation that Superman's cells find themselves predisposed to absorb at a much higher rate than solar rays. So the radiation of the "kryptonite" would start supplanting the solar energy of Superman's cells, working like cancer in that it's taking up  space where solar energy should, and Superman's body can't use any of the radiation energy, so it's stagnating.  its effects are proportional to how much solar energy Superman has at the time. So a Superman that was spamming his heat vision all night would be easier to take down than a Superman sunning himself at high noon in the desert. It's also mass dependent (more mass=more radiation). A marble sized piece would take longer to hurt Superman than a basketball sized piece. It goes without saying that the creation of kryptonite would be like the creation of penicillin; a complete and utter accident that results from attempts to do something else.

- Super speed does indeed come with super thought and super reflexes. We can't have Superman flying through stars by accident. And his efficiency on Earth would be severely limited if he could only use a fraction of his speed.

### Comments:

> **u/alexanderwales** [+9]  *Time flies like an arrow* (3 hours later)
> 
> In terms of maximizing good:
> 
> * I would first remove any potential threats to myself. If I knew that kryptonite hurt me, I would scour it from the planet (either using my laser vision to disintegrate it into plasma or just picking it up in my lead spacesuit and storing it someplace that people can't get it). The vulnerability to magic is a little more serious, though it doesn't exist in all incarnations of Superman. Securing your own existence is a fairly basic first step. Depending on the universe I found myself in, scanning for extraterrestrial threats would probably be smart before trying anything too fancy. And if there are threats that I can't remove, or threats that would prevent me from doing the things that I want to do, I would try to take those into consideration. But assuming that I don't have much standing in my way ...
> * I'd start my own space agency. The cost to put a pound of material into orbit is astronomical, and Superman can do it basically for free (okay, so it costs him some time as well). It shouldn't take all that long to get a Mars colony going with a nearly unlimited ability to put stuff on the planet. At peak power levels, it should be possible to restart the core of Mars and give it a magnetic field, as well as to do other geoengineering that might be necessary. A self-sufficient colony on another planet significantly reduces the risk that humanity would be wiped out. I'd also pour huge amounts of money into space travel so that if I were ever killed humanity wouldn't be totally screwed.
> * I would complete lots of infrastructure projects - digging canals, digging wells, making tunnels through mountains to reduce travel times, etc. Those projects tend to have high costs and large benefits to society, and given my abilities, I would be able to mitigate those costs to a very large extent. Mostly I'd do that work in the third world, where the returns per time spent would be greater.
> * Eventually I'd have to get into the problem of war. If Superman is at his highest levels of power, he can stop any war from happening, but that still leaves the underlying problem that caused the conflict in the first place. It would be easy for Superman to disarm the Middle East, but then what? Do I just force people to solve their territory disputes and religious quarrels without warfare? And if so, how do I do that short of threatening to scour their countries from the face of the planet?
> * And I'd get a team of crack scientists together to help advise me on all of those things that I don't know about, and to come up with ideas for maximizing good that I didn't think about, which is mostly just good practice.

>> **u/alexanderwales** [+6]  *Time flies like an arrow* (7 hours later)
>> 
>> In terms of maximizing evil:
>> 
>> * If destruction of the planet is straight out, I can still doom the world in a lot of ways. I could increase volcanic activity by tearing around the mantle at a significant fraction of the speed of light, and thereby choke out sunlight to plunge humanity into another ice age. I could also probably do the same by just chucking large enough rocks at the planet. Then I would be able to keep a small community alive through the cold and treat them as terribly as I wished.
>> * If evil is maximizing pain and suffering, then I guess instead I would pretend to be nice and friendly, and use the same money-making schemes as above to funnel huge amounts of research into virtual reality and immortality, then start funneling money into making those technologies simple enough that they can be run by a single person (under the guise of decentralizing important utilities). Then at a certain point I would start in on torturing everyone forever. The trouble with torturing everyone forever is that you actually need a lot of technologies to make it happen, and being Superman only really gets you the money to do that - the same scheme could in theory be used by Batman with only a little more difficulty.

>>> **u/eaglejarl** [+3]  (10 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Probably less difficulty, actually. Batman is accustomed to being rich and has the skills for it. He's also way the heck better than Superman at planning and manipulation -- the key skills needed to get all of humanity into the Matrix quickly.

>> **u/Kishoto** [+3]  (3 hours later)
>> 
>> This sort of well thought out discourse is exactly why I started this thread. Also, dude. Massive fan here. And I've added in an edit addressing magic.

>> **u/philip1201** [+2]  (19 hours later)
>> 
>> Shouldn't the advisory committee come first, possibly even before removing the kryptonite?
>> 
>> I mean, especially if we're talking about a superman of not exceptional intelligence, there are tons of ways of accidentally hurting large amounts of people. Superman accidentally forgetting to restrict his speed to less than around .005c in atmo is an extinction level event. Moving at mach speeds causes massive hearing damage to people too close by, the dust and rocks flung out from a rapidly dug canal or tunnel may kill bystanders, etc. With your mental operations only going at a human level, anything relying on speed to be worth it is dangerous.

>>> **u/alexanderwales** [+1]  *Time flies like an arrow* (a day later)
>>> 
>>> It depends - there's a definite trade-off involved. Bringing in the advisory committee before you've secured your position exposes you to betrayal and subterfuge. And testing your invulnerability isn't something you can really enter into lightly either - before you know that you can survive in hard vacuum, you probably shouldn't just go into hard vacuum. And what if your invulnerability doesn't extend to radiation, or biological agents?
>>> 
>>> Other people still have to be presumed to be a threat to Superman, unless he has some magical way of knowing what can and cannot kill him. That means that securing his position has to be a priority, given the kinds of enemies his mere existence implies.

> **u/triangleman83** [+7]  (4 hours later)
> 
> Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal had a [great take on it](http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20110713.gif)
> 
> [Source](http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2305)

>> **u/Kishoto** [+3]  (7 hours later)
>> 
>> Yea, i read this, but I moreso wanted to see the various opinions on it. A lot of people WOULD say infinite energy is how they'd utilize it. But it's not that simple, and also is that your personal solution? Maybe you have better ideas as to how to utilize the big guy's powers :)

> **u/gabbalis** [+3]  (14 minutes later)
> 
> Highest power superman is ridiculously OP. He essentially has literal omnipotence short of kryptonite restrictions. He might actually legitimately be fast enough to gather every human and make a personalized virtual hell or heaven for every single one if he really wanted to. I mean this is a guy that when he needs data from an obliterated computer he just opts to take a second or two to rebuild it.

>> **u/Kishoto** [+2]  (17 minutes later)
>> 
>> Fair point, but I guess making Superman also ridiculously smart may be too much. How about we say he has regular above average level intellect? As in, if your average human with that intellect could probably get into MIT or Harvard, but isn't the next Einstein or Steven Hawking. Ergo: He doesn't have the mental ability to create the necessary technology for the immersive virtual reality you envision.

>>> **u/gabbalis** [+1]  (48 minutes later)
>>> 
>>> Intellect is the strongest resource Superman has to do good or evil.
>>> 
>>> If we assume he's at a human level of intelligence then this is still true, it's just no longer his own intellect he should be abusing.
>>> 
>>> He can brute force world peace, vastly influence politics (Speech writers would probably pay to get a job working for supes), get everyone working together on whatever cause takes his fancy, be it immortality for mankind or a vast VR network.
>>> 
>>> He could do some other things of course, use his powers to to act as a [transitional power source](http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2305), or greatly simplify space exploration. Having NASA purchase his time may not be out of the question, and he could donate that money to further research.
>>> 
>>> Ultimately even if he wants to go evil he should probably do good first, helping people set up the infrastructure he will need to make a perfect self-sustaining distopian hell.

>>>> **u/Kishoto** [+2]  (an hour later)
>>>> 
>>>> Agreed, but super-intellect would just make this issue too easy, in my opinion. It's already easy enough with his infinite strength, speed and sensory perception.
>>>> 
>>>> EDIT: Also, is that what you would personally do as the Man of Unobtainium? (A much more fitting name, realistically) It's not enough to say get everyone working together on whatever cause; what cause would you pick gabbalis? What would YOU do to maximize his potential to do good/evil?

>>>> **u/Geminii27** [+2]  (an hour later)
>>>> 
>>>> His second-strongest resource is time. He can move (and presumably think) at speeds approaching that of the Flash. Human effort is very unlikely to outmaneuver him. Even if something is accomplished before he's able to stop it (unlikely) or sense it (also unlikely), he can probably undo it in a fraction of a second - and that's without taking into account time-travel powers from some continuities.

>>>>> **u/Kishoto** [+1]  (an hour later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> True, any machinations taken against Superman can't occur on the physical level. They are easily detected and undone. And let's assume he has no time travel capacity, outside of the time dilation afforded to speeds approaching the speed of light. Also, moving at these speeds is rather dangerous, on a physical level. In space, he'd be fine. But moving at these speeds near the ground would cause irreparable damage to Earth. I'm no physicist, but the shockwave from a man sized object moving at the speed of light would be disastrous, as far as I can tell. If shockwaves from aircraft breaking the sound barrier can break windows, imagine the destruction possible. Waves, radiation and particles moving at this speed is negligible. But a mass of around 225 pounds isn't.

>>>>> **u/eaglejarl** [+1]  (10 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> > He can move (and presumably think) at speeds approaching that of the Flash. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> [Not really.](http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/118094/2530802-flashowns.jpg)

> **u/ArisKatsaris** [+3]  *Sidebar Contender* (2 hours later)
> 
> "move FTL" is a bit funny to seriously think about without breaking all the known laws of physics.
> 
> And if we ignore that, and treat it like old science fiction treats it (the light speed barrier having as little signifance as the the sound-speed barrier)... then it all becomes dependent on how much faster than light we're talking about -- fast enough to contact alien civilization and bring back technological goodies, or just so slightly faster than light-speed (e.g 1.01) that it's qualitatively no different than if it was 0.99 light-speed?

>> **u/Kishoto** [+2]  (3 hours later)
>> 
>> Very good point. Made an edit addressing it.

>> **u/Topher876** [+1]  (a day later)
>> 
>> Well don't objects at c experience no time, so maybe an object at c 1.01 would experience some sort of like how you would see a tachyon.

>>> **u/ArisKatsaris** [+1]  *Sidebar Contender* (a day later)
>>> 
>>> "the light-speed barrier having as little significance as the sound-speed barrier" doesn't coexist in the same universe as "objects at c experience no time".

> **u/FaceDeer** [+2]  (16 hours later)
> 
> With regards to your last point about Kryptonite, I remember reading once upon a time that it was explained as having "hitched a ride" with Superman's FTL drive (not physically on the ship itself, but swept along in the ship's wake). Hence also explaining why so much wound up falling on Earth.
> 
> Anyway, this version of Superman has super-speed, does he also have super-reflexes and speed-of-thought to go with it? If so, major feats of highly targeted heroism are possible.
> 
> He could literally disarm nations by zinging along and breaking each individual gun within it, finding them via x-ray vision. That's not a total "world peace" solution since humans can be quite dedicated when they really want to kill their fellow man (just look at how awful Rwanda was with mostly machetes) but it would likely be a good start. Lots of current-day wars would sputter out if the combatants didn't have any modern weapons. If a hotspot was *really* bad he could disable all the vehicles too, slowing the pace of the war down even more. Aid distribution becomes a lot better too. Superman can bring pallets of food anywhere and is not affected by corruption or politics.
> 
> Superman can't *force* us to get along, but he can certainly make it a lot easier.

>> **u/Kishoto** [+1]  (17 hours later)
>> 
>> Super speed has to come with super thought, in my opinion. There's no point being able to move FTL, if you can't think at speeds comparable. You will never be able to utilize even close to your full speed. Esp with Superman, who is indestructible, and therefore has a limited (probably non existent) sense of physical self preservation since he has no need for one.

>>> **u/eltegid** [+1]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> On the contrary, being invulnerable is the only way having super speed can work without super reflexes. It does mean it is more dangerous, and also that you can only use different speeds for the adequate situations, i.e. FTL or 0.999c or whatever only works for interstellar travel and no, you won't find yourself inside of a star by accident because 1) that's extremely unlikely to happen by chance and 2) you can see it and correct course!
>>> 
>>> Of course then it becomes a bit boring (super speed becomes mostly super travel), but you can also have something intermediate, like a maximum speed of thought that corresponds to physical speeds of much less than c.

>>>> **u/Kishoto** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> Assuming Superman doesn't care about the Earth, then yea, that's when it wouldn't matter. And you're correct, the chances of it happening randomly is unlikely. I moreso meant that, if you were limited to human level perception, then you wouldn't be able to react to anything at those speeds so, if you were unlucky enough to be on a direct path to a star, it would go from a dot into the sky to you being in the center of it before you had time to perceive it.

>>>>> **u/eltegid** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> No, no, that's where I disagree: you can see a star like, for instance, the sun, coming from several light minutes away, so you can react before you find yourself inside it. 
>>>>> In the same vein, an invulnerable character capable of traveling at supersonic speeds but without 'supersonic' reaction times (that cared about people and whatnot), would have to restrict supersonic movement to more or less empty terrain, such as the sky.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Eh, it's not important. I just wanted to make myself understood :)

> **u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer** [+1]  *Utopian Smut Peddler* (10 hours later)
> 
> >Superman is still vulnerable to magic, but in this context, he's on our Earth. 
> 
> Boring. Why does everyone want a superman-only, no magic, no super-science universe? DC is rich with interesting characters and powers, and most of Supe's threats in the comics are Earth destroying super science, weapons targeted specifically at him, and magic. That rules out 2/3.
> 
> > For the sake of the argument, magic is energy...
> 
> Why does this matter, if "magic" doesn't exist on our Earth? Are you saying exotic, extra-dimensional stuff exists on "our" Earth, then? What about other super-science?
> 
> >So different forms of energy possessed by extraterrestrial or extradimensional beings could pose a threat.
> 
> Oh come on. No Green Lantern Corp, but you get your own OC extra-dimensional beings?
> 
> >Kryptonite isn't found on Earth, as shards of Krypton wouldn't be able to make it here.
> 
> Then Superman can't be stopped. GG guys.
> 
> >However, a Kryptonite substitute can be created through nuclear fission experiments.
> 
> Oh. Okay. Well, that's one hell of a good reason to fund "pure" science, then. Good thing we had that one on the back burner.
> 
> I hope he doesn't find this out and destroy all nuclear reactors on Earth at the speed of sound. With giant rocks ~~dropped~~ *thrown* from space. If he can throw them fast enough, they don't even have to be that large. Just solid nickle-iron core.
> 
> >It goes without saying that the creation of kryptonite would be like the creation of penicillin; a complete and utter accident that results from attempts to do something else.
> 
> Are you *sure* the DC gods and other magic don't exist on this Earth? Because this seems really, really lucky.
> 
> Still, radiation effects follow an inverse square law, where as space-rocks follow a standard kinetic energy model, atmospheric drag, and a sort of Coriolis effect. Right into your stupid head, if you think you can sneak up on EvilSuperman with an expensive, artificially created compound.
> 
> RationalEvilSuperman peppers a landing site from orbit before carefully approaching with a Geiger counter.
> 
> ---
> 
> The endgame here is humans dusting all of Earth's atmosphere with radioactive faketonite dust. And Superman terrorizing the population of Earth with a HAM radio set and a nearly unlimited supply of rocks.

>> **u/Kishoto** [+1]  (14 hours later)
>> 
>> Well, I wanted to take Superman and put him in our world to postulate his effect on it. I don't need to see Superman's effect on the DC world. It's clear enough throughout the comics. I wanted one variable X (our Man of Steel) dropped into our space, and for the creative subscribers of this thread to give interesting ideas as a result. And why quote my "magic is energy" line and question it when, right after, I then expand on what I meant by it? Also, I like the trolly undertone :)

>>> **u/TimeLoopedPowerGamer** [+1]  *Utopian Smut Peddler* (14 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Thanks! I try to put a lot of effort into my trolling, to give positive value to readers instead of being a social leech. Chaos is change, after all. I still meant the sentiments and emotional content of the phrasing (at least, when I wrote them I did).
>>> 
>>> I put the two lines in like that to emphasize how odd it was structuring things in that way. And how different this was from "reality" or the DC universe. Superman wasn't the only X factor you added in, was my real point. Removing magic (which DC regulates rather tightly compared to Marvel) and replacing it with this without further reason just seemed...off? And suggests that faketonite is a magic-analog, as well as a science-based creation.
>>> 
>>> And it got you to comment on it and at least briefly think about it some more, so it sort of worked in that sense.

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