scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/2ob570.md

## The Rationalist Canon

* Author: u/PeridexisErrant  *put aside fear for courage, and death for life**
* URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/2ob570/the_rationalist_canon/
* Score: 30

* Created: 2014-12-04T23:26:41

### Post:

The core reasons for /r/rational to exist is to share and create rationalist fiction.  Due to a shortage thereof, we also recognise rational fiction - both are defined in the sidebar - but this thread is only about explicitly rationalist fiction.  

**What is the 'rationalist canon'?**   The stories that stand out, that helped define the genre or are seen as ideal expressions of it?

The 'old masters' - rationalist published literature.  Does anyone know of more?

* *[The World of Null-A](http://m.friendfeed-media.com/3570919004ec89f17b6978a4bf1d5a8d46e2d804)*
* *[The Players of Null-A](http://www.e-reading.co.uk/bookreader.php/133624/The_Players_of_Null-A.pdf)*
* *[David's Sling](http://www.amazon.com/Davids-Sling-Marc-Stiegler/dp/0671653695)*
* *[Earthweb](http://www.amazon.com/Earthweb-Marc-Stiegler/dp/067157809X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1391297844&sr=1-1&keywords=earthweb)*

Online Serials - some original works, and some derivative ([it's easier](http://yudkowsky.tumblr.com/writing/other-universes)).  Are there more that meet the full gold-standard definition?  Or some on the list that shouldn't be?

* *[Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality](http://hpmor.com/)*
* *[Luminosity](http://luminous.elcenia.com/story.shtml)* and *[Radiance](http://luminous.elcenia.com/story.shtml)*
* *[The Fable of the Dragon-Tyrant](http://www.nickbostrom.com/fable/dragon.html)*
* *[The Metropolitian Man](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10360716/1/The-Metropolitan-Man)* and *[A Bluer Shade of White](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10327510/1/A-Bluer-Shade-of-White)*
* *[Saga of Soul](http://www.sagaofsoul.com/)*
* *[Three Worlds Collide](http://lesswrong.com/lw/y4/three_worlds_collide_08/)*
* ~~*[Friendship Is Optimal: Caelum Est Conterrens](http://www.fimfiction.net/story/69770/friendship-is-optimal-caelum-est-conterrens)*~~

Remember to explain the reasons for any proposed changes!

### Comments:

> **u/narfanator** [+21]  (15 minutes later)
> 
> While I appreciate the attempts, I am reminded of the joke:
> 
> A man finds Truth! and the devil's minion is worried, but the devil is not: "I'll just tempt him to institutionalize it."
> 
> Make no boxes and we'll have no arguments about what deserves to be in them.
> 
> That said! Maybe a Rational Tropes sort of setup? List the elements of rationalist fiction, and note where they were first observed, and fiction that uses them?

>> **u/AmeteurOpinions** [+10]  *Finally, everyone was working together.* (an hour later)
>> 
>> [There *is* a TVTropes page already](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RationalFic).

>> **u/Polycephal_Lee** [+9]  (an hour later)
>> 
>> -canon
>> 
>> +fiction starter set

>> **u/PeridexisErrant** [+3]  *put aside fear for courage, and death for life* (33 minutes later)
>> 
>> >Make no boxes and we'll have no arguments about what deserves to be in them.
>> 
>> True.  On the other hand, we won't even have an empty box!  
>> 
>> I think it's worth occasionally at least discussing what we would see as the canon, and the reasons behind our choices - to find new things to read, build a shared understanding of what this 'rationalist fiction' thing is, and reflect on our own thinking.  
>> 
>> Challenge:  write a dialogue between a constructivist and a positivist, about the definition of "rationalist fiction" :p

>>> **u/notmy2ndopinion** [+5]  *Concent of Saunt Edhar* (a day later)
>>> 
>>> Challenged accepted!
>>> 
>>> P: "I would posit that the basis of an enjoyable rationalist fiction is one with believable characters who react appropriately to existential threats and utilize all tools necessary to steer the future where they want it to go.  The rational actors will at least be able to predict their opponents.  Superior optimized players will always try to think at least one level higher than anyone expects them to."
>>> 
>>> C: "It is impossible to write "rationalist" fiction.  Your human qualities with cognitive dispositions, heuristics and biases lead you through deep unconscious pathways and you can't go "one level higher" than them, no matter how much you try to "simulate a theoretical objective decisional computer in your brain."  The closest type of fiction you can write is "fiction that appeals to left-brained thinkers who value cool calculation over warm emotion based on shared constructed "memes and models."
>>> 
>>> P: "Are you proposing that in order to write a rationalist fiction, I would need to construct a story devoid of humanity?  As in, I'm banned from using human language or social cues for my story?  I'm merely talking about instrumental rationality in maximizing the quality of interactions between characters in a story."
>>> 
>>> C: "Additionally, you cannot call it "fiction" without recognizing that is a social construct, not based on reality.  Using the "cached thought" of the map-is-not-the-territory, what is the territorial basis for your fictional world?"
>>> 
>>> P: "Ugh.  You know, normally people consider me to be overly pedantic.  Thank you for showing me that it is possible to over-think things."
>>> 
>>> *Based on info on "epistemic vs instrumental rationality" and cached thoughts by EY*
>>> http://lesswrong.com/lw/crd/only_say_rational_when_you_cant_eliminate_the_word/
>>> http://lesswrong.com/lw/k5/cached_thoughts/

>> **u/Newfur** [+1]  *Crazy like a fox. Literally.* (8 hours later)
>> 
>> Weird. I definitely recognize your username from something. PM me?

>> **u/None** [+1]  (20 hours later)
>> 
>> > Make no boxes and we'll have no arguments about what deserves to be in them.
>> 
>> And we won't mistake qualifying your story to be in a box for *being awesome*.

> **u/aeschenkarnos** [+17]  (7 hours later)
> 
> [Mother of Learning](https://www.fictionpress.com/s/2961893/1/Mother-of-Learning).

>> **u/xamueljones** [+6]  *My arch-enemy is entropy* (7 hours later)
>> 
>> Oh yes! I cannot up-vote this enough. It is a brilliantly written story of how one reacts to being in a time-loop and is very different from [Time Braid](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/5193644/1/Time-Braid) which while well-written, doesn't come off as very rational, just munchkiny.

>>> **u/aeschenkarnos** [+2]  (12 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I particularly like how the character is bootstrapping up from near-schizoid antisocial misanthropy into actual emotional connection and social skills.

>>>> **u/Bobertus** [+2]  (15 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Well, to be fair, that's more a side effect of some magic-thing in the story. I mean, it's well written, but not as impressive as if the character growth were completely natural.

>>>>> **u/Jon_Freebird** [+0]  (16 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> What magic thing? The soul bond or the empathy? Because if it's the latter I'd argue that all it does is lend him some perspective rather than directly changing him.

>>>>>> **u/Bobertus** [+2]  (22 hours later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The empathy. As I remember it, before he could controle the empathy, he suffered form an information overload when he was around many people. Thats where a lot of his anti-social attitude came from.

> **u/Escapement** [+10]  *Ankh-Morpork City Watch* (17 minutes later)
> 
> I personally would have put up the original Friendship is Optimal by Iceman over it's derivative fanfic; the derivative didn't really add a whole lot of interest, it mostly felt like it was an exercise in going through standard objections to uploading. That said, even for that story going strictly by the sidebar I am not sure how much there is of the Rational*ist* techniques and the like in the story - one character conducts a very limited investigation of a virtual environment, but with zero stakes and a pretty silly investigative methodology (play with a toy until you start to get puzzled, come to a conclusion, and havsan omnipotent AI trying to maximize his happiness 'confirm' the results of testing. There is not a lot of puzzles or rationalist techniques in the story. The story has a LOT of transhumanist and LessWrongian trappings, but I don't know that it actually qualifies as rationalist merely because of having plot devices like omnipotent artificial intelligences derived from Lesswrong or related organizations.

>> **u/PeridexisErrant** [+1]  *put aside fear for courage, and death for life* (27 minutes later)
>> 
>> Good points; removed.

>>> **u/scruiser** [+9]  *CYOA* (an hour later)
>>> 
>>> If you were listing a canon of singularity stories, I would consider Friendship is Optimal to be pretty high up on the list for online serials.
>>> 
>>> That said, yeah I agree that it doesn't really have any properly rationalist characters.

>>>> **u/dokh** [+2]  *that which can be destroyed by the truth should be* (2 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> This. It's a great story about transhumanism and the singularity (I'll note that a transhumanist story and a story about transhumanism are far from the same), but it's not really very rationalist.

>>> **u/Transfuturist** [+5]  *Carthago delenda est.* (3 hours later)
>>> 
>>> You should put Iceman's FiO on the list.

>>> **u/FourFire** [+1]  (2 days later)
>>> 
>>> I agree that the original story should be in this list.

> **u/None** [+14]  (an hour later)
> 
> [deleted]

>> **u/rilianus** [+3]  (17 hours later)
>> 
>> We could also add [Cenotaph](http://archiveofourown.org/works/1152749/chapters/2337442) and it's sequel [Wake](http://archiveofourown.org/works/2417525/chapters/5347754). Both of these have unique, original flavour of wormverse and personally I consider them better than the original (Wildbow's work desperately needs editing)

> **u/Nevereatcars** [+3]  *The Greatest Is Behind* (a day later)
> 
> Seems like we could just slap "The Alexanderwales Online Bibliography" on that list and save everybody the low-hanging fruit.

> **u/None** [+5]  (a day later)
> 
> [Last Christmas](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9915682/1/The-Last-Christmas) by /u/alexanderwales

> **u/STL** [+2]  (a day later)
> 
> I read several chapters of Saga of Soul, having read everything else on your online list, and it totally doesn't seem to belong on the list. I guess the very beginning is rational [](#s "where Eriko confronts Junko's dad"), but everything else didn't meet any of the criteria in the sidebar.

>> **u/rumblestiltsken** [+3]  (a day later)
>> 
>> Seconded. It isn't even rational fic, let alone rationalist. Some trappings with the experiments, but there it stops.

>>> **u/ourimaler** [+1]  (9 days later)
>>> 
>>> For obvious reasons, I don't feel entirely qualified to pass judgment on Saga of Soul.
>>> I would, however, submit for your consideration that one of the most central aspects of the story is that, when the protagonist is faced with an afterlife and physics-defying power, she refuses to accept "it's magic!" as an explanation, and immediately sets out to analyze, quantify, and experiment on her discovery - and that, furthermore, the knowledge garnered from her experiments plays a large role in allowing her her victories.

>>>> **u/rumblestiltsken** [+1]  (9 days later)
>>>> 
>>>> Hey ouri, yeah the experimentation is what I said is "rational trappings".
>>>> 
>>>> It is only my opinion, but for me there is some pretty big breaks in rules 1, 2 and 4 in the sidebar. 
>>>> 
>>>> Eriko left alive several times by people who are characterised by wanton killing. Outright evil factions with no other real motivation.
>>>> 
>>>> And there are plenty of examples of applications of her power that either get nerfed after a single use for story reasons (the kaiju popper, for example) or have been ruled out by you for "story reasons", like cutting enemies with portals.
>>>> 
>>>> The story is still fun to read, but it just doesn't fulfill the criteria. Some rational elements, but not rational enough that a reader can extrapolate solutions to problems.

>>>>> **u/ourimaler** [+1]  (10 days later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> The bit about portal cutting I'll concede.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Being left alive... Downfall retreated twice, mostly cutting his losses (even if he later retells it differently). Murder was toying with her the first time, but WOULD have killed her if she hadn't retreated.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Outright evil factions... Well, the demons have their motivations. It's just that those motivations are no more rational than those of the Holocaust's showrunners. The Elysium is imperialistic. He Who Laughs is pursuing his own interests while treating the multiverse as an entertaining show.
>>>>> 
>>>>> As for the kaiju popper, it requires a few elements to work. One of them is an enemy who's not moving quickly even while you're somewhat close.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Your mileage may vary.

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