scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/2tkjka.md

## Trying to explain what rational is to a friend...help?

* Author: u/Kishoto *
* URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/2tkjka/trying_to_explain_what_rational_is_to_a_friendhelp/
* Score: 12

* Created: 2015-01-25T01:15:36

### Post:

Ok, so, I'm rational. At least I like to think so. I'm definitely not as well-read as someone of this school of thought SHOULD be, but ah well. I'm trying to explain what being rational really means to a friend, but I'm struggling. I can't find a concise, summarized way to explain it to him, in a way that would make sense anyway. Anyone have a link that explains it better (one less wordy than wikipedia's, lol) or can just whip up a quick paragraph about it? Would be much obliged :)

### Comments:

> **u/scruiser** [+19]  *CYOA* (3 hours later)
> 
> Epistemic rationality is having correct beliefs, beliefs that are accurate reflections of reality.  Instrumental rationality is achieving your goals effectively, i.e. making good decisions, prioritizing correctly, etc.  In general, you need having good epistemic rationality to achieve good instrumental rationality.  
> 
> There is a kind of a disconnect between epistemic rationality and instrumental rationality that less wrong and similar blogs are looking to address.  It is one thing knowing the results of a lot of psychological studies, it is another to use that to be more effective in your own life. It is possible to be smart and creative and still make poor life choices by failing to apply one's intelligence and creativity to real life.  One approach Lesswrong and related organization have been developing is to discuss all the major cognitive biases, then work on strategies for avoiding them, and then test if their methods work.
> 
> This subreddit focuses on fanfiction that have characters that have good instrumental rationality (rational fiction) or good epistemic rationality (rationalist fiction).  When the characters try to leverage the rules to an extreme extent, we categorize it as munchkin.  This sub also focuses on fanfiction that tries to construct a more rational version of the original material (deconstructionist fiction).  
> 
> As I mentioned before, in real life, there can be a disconnect between epistemic and instrumental rationality.  Writing fiction allows the author to create scenarios where this disconnect is less and they can illustrate various techniques to make good decision or avoid cognitive bias or creatively solve novel problems.  Ideally, seeing a fictional character address their life issues rationally in an exciting context would inspire you to apply rationality in your own life better.  For example, HJPEV in HPMOR continuously underestimates many key people around him (Hermione with the army battles, Dumbledore with actually thinking he might be insane, Voldemort, etc.).  IRL I want to remember that even if people aren't as smart or rational as me in some areas, they may still be more competent or skilled than me in others.

> **u/DataPacRat** [+12]  *Amateur Immortalist* (an hour later)
> 
> To  be rational, you first have to start by wanting something. Maybe it's to not die; maybe it's to keep a loved one from dying; maybe it's to keep /everyone/ from dying; maybe it's to read comics. Which thing you want is less important than /actually/ wanting it, a lot, instead of just saying you want it or thinking you want it. Specifically, wanting it so much that you're willing to go to the effort of figuring out what actually will help you achieve that goal, and what won't. "Rationality" is simply the science of winning: all the various tips and tricks that help a person sort out true things from false things, so that they can achieve their goals.
> 
> (IMHO, YMMV, HAND.)

>> **u/scruiser** [+2]  *CYOA* (16 hours later)
>> 
>> > To be rational, you first have to start by wanting something. 
>> 
>> For instrumental rationality yes.  For epistemic rationality, you simply have to try to reach a correct state of knowledge about reality.  For some people, epistemic rationality is an end goal in itself, for others it is a useful intermediate goal.
>> 
>> > "Rationality" is simply the science of winning: all the various tips and tricks that help a person sort out true things from false things, so that they can achieve their goals.
>> 
>> I think the distinction between instrumental rationality and epistemic rationality is useful because they don't always line up.  There is the classic stereotype of someone who is extremely well read but doesn't have any common sense.  There are engineers who can acknowledge that science works and do a good job as engineers, and yet are still Young Earth Creationists (I was raised Southern Baptist and I personally know people like this).
>> 
>> Of course in the long run, epistemic rationality is necessary for instrumental rationality.  But it would be a mistake not to acknowledge the fact that people can know a lot and still "lose" or be willfully ignorant and still "win".

>> **u/Arandur** [+3]  (an hour later)
>> 
>> HAND?

>>> **u/DataPacRat** [+5]  *Amateur Immortalist* (an hour later)
>>> 
>>> Have A Nice Day
>>> 🌞

>>>> **u/Arandur** [+3]  (2 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks!

>>>> **u/Jace_MacLeod** [+3]  (20 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Will mentally replace with "here, have this severed hand", in the future.

> **u/None** [+7]  (3 hours later)
> 
> To me, rationality is mostly based on problem solving. Except where some people might limit themselves to just finding effective solutions to their problems, rationality takes on the additional problem of trying to figure out what method will lead to the optional solution of every relevant problem that you might face. So in that sense it's a method of problem solving that tries to optimize itself in order to more effectively solve other problems.

> **u/Farmerbob1** [+4]  *Level 1 author* (6 hours later)
> 
> I'll take a quick and dirty shot at this, from a layman's point of view.
> 
> Rational people attempt to make what they believe fit reality by examining well-tested truths and facts.
> 
> Irrational people try to bend reality to match what they believe, even if that means denying well-tested truths and facts.

> **u/None** [+4]  (9 hours later)
> 
> I think you're starting off wrong. Like, you're not rational, you're an aspiring rationalist. Humans really can't be rational, only strive to be so (it's because your hardware is corrupted and your software has bugs in it :-p).
> 
> I did once write a short-ish (shorter than wikipedia) explanation on what "rationality" is. You can find it [here](http://rationalist-tutor.tumblr.com/post/100427880705/what-does-rationality-mean-anyway), or if you really dislike tumblr for some reason, I also uploaded it to [wordpress](https://rationalisttutor.wordpress.com/2014/10/22/what-does-rationality-mean-anyway/).

>> **u/Kishoto** [+1]  (12 hours later)
>> 
>> You're right, I meant rationalist. And I liked that little summary, it's gonna go a long way in helping me explain it to my friend.

> **u/Bowbreaker** [+3]  *Solitary Locust* (8 hours later)
> 
> Isn't it just trying to logically figure out the best possible actions while trying to not let cognitive biases or prior beliefs cloud ones judgement?

> **u/None** [+9]  (an hour later)
> 
> Well, I'm not exactly sure, but reading and writing fanfiction seem to have something to do with it.

>> **u/DataPacRat** [+6]  *Amateur Immortalist* (an hour later)
>> 
>> I'm very unlikely to be smart enough to come up with a vital idea that fends off an extinction risk. It's a lot more likely that I might become just good enough of a writer to inspire someone /else/ to be rational enough to come up with such an idea.
>> 
>> And parts of the craft of honing one's writing skills include reading other peoples' writing, and practicing skills other than worldbuilding.

>>> **u/Kishoto** [+3]  (3 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Well, I mean, I guess I may be using the wrong word, but doesn't being rational go beyond writing? Like I understand that the dictionary definition of being rational is just being able to pursue something in a logical manner, but as far as being a rationalist, or someone who considers themselves part of the rational school of thought, doesn't it go further?
>>> 
>>> Like, understanding tribalism, bayes' theorem, thought experiments? When we can dissect why something IS the way it is, and work our way past ingrained beliefs in the process, isn't that part of being a rationalist?

>>>> **u/DataPacRat** [+2]  *Amateur Immortalist* (3 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> All of that is true. The comment that you replied to was made to address the parent comment, 'reading and writing fanfiction seem to have something to do with it'. My main response to your original question is the post that mentions comics. :)

> **u/E-o_o-3** [+2]  (16 hours later)
> 
> In the "normal" world, rationality means having a good reason for everything you do and think. The technical definition on this corner of the internet is a little different.
> 
> Rationality is similar to being smart, but not quite - because sometimes smart people do and believe dumb things, right? Rationality is *acting* smart.
> 
> **Each action you take leads to a different future. Rationality is what helps you choose the action that leads to your *favorite* future off the list.** That's the one sentence summary of technical rationality.
> 
> There's also a related skill called "epistemic rationality", which is about using evidence to have true beliefs, which is more related to the non-technical use of "rational". Believing the right things often helps us to act in the right way.
> 
> Sometimes we use the word "instrumentally rational" instead of just saying "rational"for people who act in the right way despite not being smart or right. For example, you might not think George Bush is very "rational" in the commonsense way of the word, but if you want to acknowledge that he has been more successful than many others might in his circumstances, you might call him "instrumentally rational".

> **u/Nepene** [+2]  (a day later)
> 
> Do you remember in the Matrix when, while fleeing from the agents and seeking an escape from the Matrix Trinity decided that was the perfect time to have an extended conversation with Neo about his feelings and so Agent Smith caught up?
> 
> Do you remember in Prometheus when the ship's captain was trying to outrun the circular rolling ship and forgot she had the ability to run sideways and so got crushed?
> 
> Do you remember in Skyfall when the supposed tech expert Q connected Silva's computer directly to the M16 mainframe with no precautions and predictably it hacked the mainframe?
> 
> Rational stories are stories where people use their intelligence to solve their problems. Where they use scientific knowledge to handle unfamiliar situations. Where they use the well known powers or abilities that they have in a consistent and reliable manner.
> 
> No one is an idiot for the sake of the plot, no one does things just for the evilness or goodness. They try to win.

> **u/OffColorCommentary** [+1]  (2 hours later)
> 
> Rationality the art of your goals more often by refining how you think.  This mostly means techniques to develop an accurate world view, and to avoid mistakes when acting on that world view.
> 
> Rational humanism is that plus using goals from a moral philosophy that accepts human values as morality, instead of needing morality to come from some deity or cosmic constant.  ie: Friends are good and death is bad because that's clearly how humans value these things anyway.
> 
> Rational transhumanism is a subset of rational humanism where you look at the ancient philosophical questions that pop up in humanism - like if death is bad, then how long should people live - with the obvious (ie: forever).

> **u/embrodski** [+1]  (a day later)
> 
> My favorite answer is a reply by Scott Alexander to someone who gets the answer completely wrong. But [it's not short](http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/27/why-i-am-not-rene-descartes/). If I had to summarize it briefly using only quotes from the post:
> 
> “Life is made up of limited, confusing, contradictory, and maliciously doctored facts. [...] Other people can present the facts to you, but in the end you’re the one deciding what and who to believe. Just like everybody dies alone, everybody decides on their beliefs alone. And rationality is what allows them to do that accurately."

> **u/capsless** [+1]  *despiser of hpmor* (an hour later)
> 
> [possessing of] a prediliction to apply formal reasoning (eg, using findings in statistics or psychology) to refine one's own thoughts, esp. wrt belief structures and metacognition

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