scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/2vd5f5.md

## [FF][RST] The Waves Arisen [Ch.16]

* Author: u/Wertifloke *
* URL: https://wertifloke.wordpress.com/2015/02/09/the-waves-arisen-chapter-16/
* Score: 35

* Created: 2015-02-10T01:00:55

### Post:

[Link to content](https://wertifloke.wordpress.com/2015/02/09/the-waves-arisen-chapter-16/)

### Comments:

> **u/PeridexisErrant** [+10]  *put aside fear for courage, and death for life* (3 hours later)
> 
> ...OK.  My reaction to all that is basically unprintable, but here's some strategic notes:
> 
> * Naruto is now capable of becoming immune to decapitation strikes. He can trivially regenerate from any shadow clone back to full power.
> 
> * Becoming immune to conventional assault should be a priority
> 
> * Vulnerability to "exotic" attacks such as Sharingan mental hacks, Rinnegan soul-magic, weird seals, etc. is the next big thing.  Naruto might dismiss it as legend, but...
> 
> Setting notes:
> 
> * [Story map](https://wertifloke.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/map5.jpg), [Tibet topo map](http://homepages.dias.ie/~ajones/tibet/tibet_topo.gif)
> 
> * That's a beautiful map you made, OP.  My basic GIS skills are jealous.
> 
> * Sea level has risen by approximately five thousand meters from the present day. (Holy shit, maybe a hundredish from climate change isn't so bad?)
> 
> * That's suspiciously close to exactly doubling the water on Earth - obviously exact numbers are hard to get, and it could be a genuine coincidence about the height of the plateau.
> 
> * What else might still be above water?  [Look for Naruto's backup bases here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_highest_points) - no sense letting a disaster in Tibet take out a swarm intelligence.

>> **u/derefr** [+3]  (9 hours later)
>> 
>> > That's suspiciously close to exactly doubling the water on Earth - obviously exact numbers are hard to get, and it could be a genuine coincidence about the height of the plateau.
>> 
>> If we assume "doubling the water on Earth" is exactly what happened, would this additional water mass pushing on the earth's crust do anything to:
>> 
>> * Gravity levels?
>> * Atmospheric pressure at sea level? (Or air quality? O2 content? H2O content/humidity?)
>> * Tectonic plate momentum?
>> * Weather patterns?
>> * Global average soil aridity/arability?
>> 
>> One thing that immediately sticks out to me is that the oceans would also now be about half as saline as before. (I presume water jutsus generate the equivalent of distilled drinking water.) I wonder how much that would have impacted global marine biodiversity...

>>> **u/PeridexisErrant** [+7]  *put aside fear for courage, and death for life* (10 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Woo, rusty earth systems student here...
>>> 
>>> Gravity:  increases by zero to ten percent; the earth is very big and generally much denser than water.  Zero because we're probably talking about surface `g`, rather than orbital stuff.
>>> 
>>> I'll come back to atmosphere and weather.
>>> 
>>> Tectonic plates will be basically unaffected - they're driven mostly by sub-surface issues.  Small regions could see some significant changes due to the massive pressure, but at continental scales I expect it averages out (mostly).
>>> 
>>> Global soil is mostly *very wet*.  The Plateau doesn't have much at the moment, since it's geologically new and gets washed downstream, but per descriptions of significant vegetation that must change.
>>> 
>>> Global ocean and atmosphere systems would be *fascinating*, in the way a doctor would be fascinated by a man walking up with ten kinds of cancer, one limb, and crowbar through the skull.
>>> 
>>> Without knowing the temperature, purity (especially salinity and dissolved gasses), placement, and timescale and spatial variations of those things, I can't even guess.  
>>> 
>>> * How well mixed is this new ocean?  Ours takes ~10^6 years to mix well.  Salinity, biology, etc all rely on this.
>>> 
>>> * What temperature is it?  I'm thinking here mostly about global energy balance of earth - adding water at any temperature other than 15 degrees will change the mean (surface) temperature of the planet a *lot*, and with massive specific heat behind it.
>>> 
>>> * There is literally too much here to think about right now.  If people are interested, I'll look up more numbers in the morning.

> **u/scruiser** [+8]  *CYOA* (50 minutes later)
> 
> > Caution was a habit, after all—and what were the odds he would suddenly find himself needing more chakra than that?
> 
> Well, from meta knowledge we can now predict that Naruto will soon need to fight a battle requiring ridiculous amounts of chakra... or that the conflict will become one that raw power can't solve.
> 
> Is anyone else worried how the Kyuubi will interact with all these shadow clones with nature chakra?
> 
> Alright, so the one non-quote thing the slug said was too many minds, right?  My guess is that multiple pre-collapse human minds have been absorbed and the only coherent things they can manage to say are famous pop-culture quotes because of how the interaction of their mind works.
> 
> So uniting WMG about chakra:  "Chakra" was part of some post-scarcity, post-singularity resource allocation and distribution system.  I would guess it might even be fictitious, like in Ra, in that it is just a way of interacting with an abstract system.  It is capable of synthesizing resources.  It can generate water "easier" (perhaps less expensively in terms of system resources) than earth because water is just hydrogen and oxygen whereas earth has heavier atoms.  "Chakra" can also perform/carry mental processes as a basic function (perhaps this indicates it directly ties into computing resources?).  Evidence: The kyuubi's chakra is applies an alien utility function to the user's mind (possibly Kaguya's?), Orochimaru uses his Chakra to possess people, certain abilities like the Sharingan imply large amounts of computational/information processing power.
> 
> WMG about backstory:  An out of control command to create water caused the first collapse.  After the first collapse, war broke out among the survivors.  Kaguya seized and possibly literally consumed some advanced pre-collapse artifact that granted her direct control of Chakra and a huge array of associated abilities.  The ability pased on to the Sage of Six Paths and his descendants, resulting in ninja as we know them in the present.
> 
> Edit: Thougt of something else: 
> 
> > “The cause in which they died will continue.”
> 
> The dead minds of the pre-collapse people continue on, existing in the natural chakra's processing substrate?  Or the cause of the collapse continues... the Chakra system?

>> **u/None** [+10]  (9 hours later)
>> 
>> The water levels rose because of some asshole munchkining with water clones and giving a recursive order to them, maybe?

>> **u/eaglejarl** [+4]  (10 hours later)
>> 
>> > Alright, so the one non-quote thing the slug said was too many minds, right?
>> 
>> That's a quote from the Tom Cruise movie *[The Last Samurai](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NbecIBvR3mE)*.

>>> **u/scruiser** [+3]  *CYOA* (13 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Oh dang, so I guess everything was quotes then. But with the Tibet hint and the water hint, they all seem like they might have meaning.  Just to get all my guesses at the meaning in one place:
>>> 
>>> * Water refers to the disaster that created all the water 
>>> 
>>> * On top of the world/Tibet refers to their location on the Tibetan plateau.
>>> 
>>> * So I jumped ship... The survivors made it to Tibet via ship?
>>> 
>>> * "The cause in which they died will continue".  The Chakra system continues even though it caused a disaster?
>>> 
>>> * “Here’s who? The man from the moon… Surprise motherfucker… I’m the king of the wooorld!” “…Wow, what a totally amazing, excellent discovery—not! …Stop that astronaut! Bring him to me… A witch! A witch! We have found a witch—may we burn her?” A lone individual spammed water clones recursively to create the disaster?  Or maybe because the chakra system looks like magic?  Not sure about these ones.
>>> 
>>> * "Please forgive" and "Too many mind".  The disaster where someone fork bombed their mind into water clones?  Or the slug has too many minds rendering only able to quote common memes of its hive mind?  Or Naruto's shadow clones are too many minds.

>>>> **u/eaglejarl** [+3]  (14 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Attributions for the quotes to see if we can get more info from context:
>>>> 
>>>> > “Here’s who? The man from the moon… 
>>>> 
>>>> I don't know this quote.
>>>> 
>>>> > Surprise motherfucker… 
>>>> 
>>>> YouTube tells me [that's from Dexter](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzcVp3VAeIY), but I don't know the context.  Doakes (speaker) is a cop, talking to a serial killer who only kills bad people.  I don't actually know why they are there or what they are talking about, though.
>>>> 
>>>> > I’m the king of the wooorld!” 
>>>> 
>>>> Leo DiCapprio in Titanic, while standing on the bow of a ship that was going to sink.
>>>> 
>>>> > “…Wow, what a totally amazing, excellent discovery—not! 
>>>> 
>>>> From Wayne's World, referring to the 'Suck Kut', a home hair cutting product that's basically an expy of the real-world Flowbee.  </dating_myself>
>>>> 
>>>> "…Stop that astronaut! Bring him to me…"
>>>> 
>>>> Said by Dr No in the eponymous film, as James Bond is climbing into a rocketship disguised as an astronaut.
>>>> 
>>>> > A witch! A witch! We have found a witch—may we burn her?” 
>>>> 
>>>> [Monty Python](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g&t=23s); they dress a woman as a witch (including fake nose) and come up with a torturous chain of troll logic that should never have worked, yet it does.  Turns out she *was* a witch.
>>>> 
>>>> > "The cause in which they died will continue". 
>>>> 
>>>> I don't recognize the quote.  I thought it was Nixon's [undelivered moon-disaster contingency speech](http://watergate.info/1969/07/20/an-undelivered-nixon-speech.html) but that's not it.
>>>> 
>>>> >  "Too many mind".
>>>> 
>>>> Most immediately, this was what let Naruto master nature chakra, so it's possible that it was just the Slug Sage trying to help out.  It could be a reference to something else, though -- a runaway AI, gray goo clones, an army, a social movement, etc.
>>>> 
>>>> > [Hypothesis]: A lone individual spammed water clones recursively to create the disaster? 
>>>> 
>>>> Water clones aren't net-positive unless you're a jinchuriki, and the jinchuriki didn't exist (as far as we know) until the [Sage of the Six Paths](http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Hagoromo_%C5%8Ctsutsuki) split the Ten-Tailed Beast into the One-through-Nine Tailed Beasts a few centuries before the events of the series.  As a hyperpowerful reality-warper living in the fairly distant past, he's a good candidate for the cause of the problem, but I get the impression that it happened much earlier.

>>>>> **u/capsless** [+1]  *despiser of hpmor* (19 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> "the cause in which they died will continue" is from a bush speech addressing the then-recent loss of space shuttle columbia; this implies that the apocalypse was a result of human technological development. however, i doubt that it happened over any substantial period of time, because the instigator either would have a) stopped it before it became a serious issue, or b) not stopped at all.

>>>>> **u/gabbalis** [+0]  (20 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> [Mary hits E.T. with the refrigerator door]
>>>>> 
>>>>> Gertie: Here he is.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mary: [absently] Here's who?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Gertie: The man from the moon. But I think you've killed him already.

>>>>>> **u/gabbalis** [+0]  (20 hours later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As such, here's my current theory: http://i.imgur.com/uCQlLTg.jpg

>>>> **u/Jace_MacLeod** [+2]  (15 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> The references to the moon and the witch are likely alluding to Kaguya and/or the Sage of the Six Paths, since in Naruto canon their [clan](http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/%C5%8Ctsutsuki_clan) originated off-world, had a history of living on the moon, and ultimately became the ancestors of all shinobi.

>>>>> **u/scruiser** [+2]  *CYOA* (17 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Maybe they are a genetically engineered human race that survived the disaster off world and then returned to earth sometime after the disaster?

>> **u/kaukamieli** [+2]  (an hour later)
>> 
>> Battle needing ridiculous amount of chakra? Sharkguy with chakra eating sword? Overload! He was introduced already.

>> **u/chaosmosis** [+2]  *and with strange aeons, even death may die* (3 hours later)
>> 
>> Why not just assume the cause is global warming?

>>> **u/JackStargazer** [+9]  *Primordial Apologist* (3 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Because global warming, even at worst possible estimates and with all of the ice caps melting, wouldn't get this bad. If the Tibetan Plateau is the largest contiguous landmass above the water that means that worldwide the oceans rose somewhere between **1500 and 5000 meters**.
>>> 
>>> There isn't enough water on the entire planet for that to be the result of any natural process.

>>>> **u/PeridexisErrant** [+7]  *put aside fear for courage, and death for life* (3 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Indeed.  I posted quick estimates - about 5km (!!!) sea level rise, based on matching the setting map and a topo map of Tibet.  
>>>> 
>>>> That's roughly double all the water on earth, almost all of which is currently below sea level[.](https://what-if.xkcd.com/53/)

>>>>> **u/JackStargazer** [+3]  *Primordial Apologist* (3 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> That level of terraforming suggests strongly to me some kind of Ra-type mass-energy conversion system or a similar technological level.

>>>>> **u/eaglejarl** [+5]  (9 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> I was assuming this was the extra water produced by all the water jutsu that have ever been used. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> EDIT: checking my math:
>>>>> 
>>>>> There's that one jutsu where a stream of water comes out of your mouth. Here's my Fermi estimate:
>>>>> 
>>>>> * 10cm diameter stream, 10m long when formed = 75,000 cc = 75L
>>>>> * Every second it produces another 75L
>>>>> * Generally used for a total of 10s per battle
>>>>> * Used only by water type ninja (1/4 of population)
>>>>> * Easy technique, so all water types learn it
>>>>> * Used in every battle among those who know it
>>>>> * Active duty ninja average 1 battle / day across a career averaging 3 years (most die as genin)
>>>>> * 400 days in a year, so every ninja who knows it generates 400 d/y * 3 y * 750L = 90,000L over their career, rounds to 100,000L
>>>>> * There have been ninja for 1,000 years
>>>>> * The total ninja population over the last 1,000 years has been X
>>>>> * Ergo, over those 1,000 years there have been 100,000L * X ninja * 1/4 water/all ninja = 25,000X liters created 
>>>>> * There are [352,670,000,000,000,000,000 gallons of water](http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/oceanwater.html) in the oceans, meaning 16E21 L rounds to 25E21 L
>>>>> 
>>>>> This would require X = 1E18 ninja ever lived. Looks like I'm wrong about something -- probably the entire idea. There are plenty of other water-creating jutsu, but unless something in there is recursive this idea doesn't work. Can water clones create water clones and am I correct that forming water clones does not require pre-existing water?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Naruto should totally have his water clones start creating water clones up to a reasonable limit. No reason to stay limited to a measly 6000 mc / s regen rate after all. Much better to regen all 2M every second.

>>>>>> **u/PeridexisErrant** [+2]  *put aside fear for courage, and death for life* (10 hours later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Yep, if you have to assume a billion billion ninja for a thousand years - even the millennium seems like a generous estimate, let alone 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 ninja active for that time.  Even if mean water created is a million times greater due to the crazy skewed distribution, that's not plausible.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think a more plausible scenario is that there was a "water cataclysm" which doubled the worlds water somehow, and the jutsu is simply triggering bad associations.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In reality there would be severe and pervasive and *obvious* (even obvious in a story which barely mentions setting) impacts from this kind of change to global oceans and associated atmospheric stuff, but I'll set aside climate science with the conservation of mass, for now.

> **u/JackStargazer** [+8]  *Primordial Apologist* (3 hours later)
> 
> Well, that got out of hand very quickly.
> 
> This should probably have a munchkin tag, because Naruto just broke this world's magic system over his knee and made it cry for the sweet release of oblivion.

> **u/Transfuturist** [+6]  *Carthago delenda est.* (24 minutes later)
> 
> So, brute forcing the magic donut seems pretty feasible right now, though one of the biggest concerns would now be making sure that the endless pool of shadow clones doesn't dispel too frequently (the recoherence limitation would be the biggest boundary on learning speed). Add an imbuement of nature chakra, and you have a citybuster in the palm of your hand.
> 
> After defeating everyone, the next concern will be where conjured water comes from, and how to get rid of the massive ocean. Do you have a specific location for the ninja continent?

>> **u/Wertifloke** [+12]  (28 minutes later)
>> 
>> Google Tibetan topography
>> 
>> edit: link to the [story map](https://wertifloke.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/map5.jpg)

>>> **u/Transfuturist** [+2]  *Carthago delenda est.* (43 minutes later)
>>> 
>>> Wow. So the slug wasn't babbling as much as I thought.
>>> 
>>> Was that the actual slug sage, or was Naruto being silly in his assumptions?

>>>> **u/PeridexisErrant** [+5]  *put aside fear for courage, and death for life* (3 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> > Was that the actual slug sage, or was Naruto being silly in his assumptions?
>>>> 
>>>> Yes.
>>>> 
>>>> ^/Wildbow

>>> **u/Jello_Raptor** [+1]  *The Last Tool User* (19 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Out of curiosity, how did you make that map?

>> **u/kaukamieli** [+5]  (39 minutes later)
>> 
>> The slug could just hsve talked nonsense and Naruto might have just figured it out himself. Jiraya did say it was all in him all along. :) The slug talks by basically referencing memes anyway. Wonder how it got that information.
>> 
>> No need for the torus anymore. Naruto can just summon millions of himself and sit on all enemies until they die.

>>> **u/Transfuturist** [+3]  *Carthago delenda est.* (45 minutes later)
>>> 
>>> The magic donut has utility in being the technique Naruto *uses* to sit on everyone. I mean, they aren't going to let Naruto sit on them as long as they're conscious, are they?

>>>> **u/kaukamieli** [+3]  (an hour later)
>>>> 
>>>> Certain chuunin couldn't do anything about a thousand. Pretty sure jounin might just commit seppuku if they saw a million being created.

> **u/mns2** [+5]  (9 hours later)
> 
> Foom or bust!

>> **u/FeepingCreature** [+1]  *GCV Literally The Entire Culture* (20 hours later)
>> 
>> Foom more like Splash, lol

> **u/Kuratius** [+3]  (9 hours later)
> 
> Naruto is now perfectly qualified to be an omnipresent and omniscient ruler. He's already unkillable, now he just needs to work out immortality and he's a god.
> Well that was a short path to godhood. Let's hope for a bit of shenanigans, shall we?

>> **u/kaukamieli** [+2]  (14 hours later)
>> 
>> The Satan is still around wanting Naruto dead. He can't be sure he can be safe from Rinnegan because he doesn't know what it can do.

>>> **u/Kuratius** [+3]  (14 hours later)
>>> 
>>> The only thing that could kill Naruto at this point would be a Langford basilisk, i.e. mind virus.

>>>> **u/PeridexisErrant** [+3]  *put aside fear for courage, and death for life* (20 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Such as the powers of Pein's or Itachi's eyes, for example?

>>>>> **u/Kuratius** [+2]  (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Itachi is dead and I don't know what Pein does.
>>>>> But even then, I think itachi could only do illusions, which wouldn't work on  backup clones that are miles away

> **u/FeepingCreature** [+3]  *GCV Literally The Entire Culture* (15 hours later)
> 
> Two things of note that for some reason don't seem to have been said yet.
> 
> First thing: well now we know why it's called that.
> 
> Second thing: chakra is from space. "The man from the moon" + "Stop that astronaut" + "I'm the king of the world!". Alien technology used for world conquest => cataclysm?

> **u/mns2** [+3]  (18 hours later)
> 
> Idk man, seems like a bit of a cop out to just let him get to infinite chakra with water clones. The water clone trick is able to be done on its own, and the "chakra overflow" without having to even dispel them only makes it easier to stumble upon.
> 
> It seems like any Jinchuuriki who knew the water clone technique would be able to use this cheat.
> 
> It also seems likely the ninja system or at least Jounin would have discovered any obvious numbering system for chakra use and catalogued the costs of all known techniques. Jiraiya and Naruto imply some complicated math being used at many levels of being a ninja. Studying chakra is one of the first things ninja would do.
> 
> Any kage trying to make their Jinchuuriki a more powerful weapon would consider their differences from normal ninja, of which chakra regeneration is the most prominent outside of triggering, and looked at techniques to leverage this boon.
> 
> I'm not saying it's impossible or even exceedingly unlikely for this to slip through the cracks. Maybe there just haven't been enough generations of ninja for this kind of knowledge to propagate until now. Maybe Jinchuuriki are treated as subhuman, more as a bomb than anything else.
> 
> But the fucking fourth Mizukage, man.

>> **u/Izeinwinter** [+2]  (19 hours later)
>> 
>> It seems very likely that every single Jinchuuriki that was sealed young enough and lives long enough will stumble on this eventually. "How many, and long can I keep x clone going" isn't an experiment that requires unusual curiosity to attempt, and well, once you do that, the fact that it gives you infinite chakra isn't something likely to be missed.  But without the shadow clone, infinite Chakra isn't a world breaker. The only really good abuse of it is to couple it with chakra transfers to other ninja, which would paint a really enormous bullseye on you in battle if your enemies catch on. So, hey, maybe there are more than a few very similar hideouts carved into the bedrock, most of them empty because of the eventual demise of the builder.

> **u/kaukamieli** [+2]  (an hour later)
> 
> Naruto's affinity is obviously human. He would probably have been sent to sage of six paths by the scroll and won the game, but he wanted to do it the hard way.

>> **u/Transfuturist** [+2]  *Carthago delenda est.* (2 hours later)
>> 
>> Now now, we can't all pull a Potter-Evans-Verres.

>> **u/Stop_Sign** [+1]  (8 hours later)
>> 
>> It's gonna be Saiyan.

> **u/4t0m** [+2]  *Chaos Legion* (38 minutes later)
> 
> >bbservations
> 
> observations

>> **u/Wertifloke** [+1]  (46 minutes later)
>> 
>> Thanks, fixed.

> **u/narfanator** [+2]  (15 hours later)
> 
> Other people covered other stuff...
> 
> But you also just pointed out why earth ninja are the most valuable *strategic* resource. 
> 
> "Obviously", sieges, "mobile" fortifications, etc...
> 
> But more importantly? Terraforming. Earth ninjas = rich ninjas. Roads, *more land*...
> 
> But also? *Cleaning up the mess*. Ninja fights tear up the earth, earth ninja can put it *back*.

> **u/logrusmage** [+1]  (6 hours later)
> 
> How much of the story do you already have written, chapter wise? 
> 
> IE: How long until we're no longer being spoiled with daily updates?

>> **u/kaukamieli** [+2]  (8 hours later)
>> 
>> Apparently should be like 5 more chapters total, tops. It's said to end before or when the HPMOR continues. THE PERFECT MONTH!

>> **u/eaglejarl** [+1]  (14 hours later)
>> 
>> [All of it.](http://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/2upavf/ffrst_the_waves_arisen_ch10/coakuyo)

> **u/Kodix** [+1]  (10 hours later)
> 
> [UNNLIMITED CHAKRAAAAHH!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_DqV1xdf-Y)
> 
> It's good that chakra capacity has been emphasized as not *that* important in this fic. It'll be interesting to see how Naruto's theoretical unlimited power turns out not solving nearly as much as one might think.

>> **u/kaukamieli** [+2]  (14 hours later)
>> 
>> He could immediately go and liberate Konoha now. Chackra capacity is not important because you die before you use it all. Naruto will not die.

>>> **u/Kodix** [+2]  (14 hours later)
>>> 
>>> He won't die, but his clones can still be popped fairly trivially. Of course, he can get an absolutely ridiculous number of clones, now..

> **u/rationalidurr** [+1]  *If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight!* (11 hours later)
> 
> Ok so Naruto is a hippy now, tree mode and all. I take Pein is going to make all of his chakra preptime worthless with is Rinengan. But before that happens I would really like to see Naruto taking over Leaf and imposing super happy fun times and peace.

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