scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/3fxp28.md

## [Weekly Challenge] Clones, Clones, and Clones!

* Author: u/alexanderwales  *Time flies like an arrow**
* URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/3fxp28/weekly_challenge_clones_clones_and_clones/
* Score: 15

* Created: 2015-08-05T23:01:19

### Post:

## Last Week

[Last time,](https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/3f39xs/weekly_challenge_the_chessmaster/?sort=confidence) the prompt was "The Chessmaster". /u/Kishoto is the winner with his story ["Requests"](https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/3f39xs/weekly_challenge_the_chessmaster/ctlc8kg), and will receive a month of reddit gold along with super special winner flair. Congratulations /u/Kishoto! (Now is a great time to go to that thread and look at the entries you may have missed, especially the late entrants; contest mode is now disabled.)

##### This Week

This week's prompt is "Clones, Clones, and Clones!". Whether through literal cloning, time travel shenanigans, or multiplication superpowers, one person (or multiple people) ends up with multiple copies running around - perhaps with divergent goals. Remember, prompts are to inspire, not to limit.

The winner will be decided **Wednesday, August 12th.** You have until then to post your reply and start accumulating upvotes. It is strongly suggested that you get your entry in as quickly as possible once this thread goes up; this is part of the reason that prompts are given a week in advance.

##### Rules

* 300 word minimum, no maximum. Post as a link to Google Docs, pastebin, Dropbox, etc. **This is mandatory.**

* No plagiarism, but you're welcome to recycle and revamp your own ideas you've used in the past.

* Think before you downvote.

* Winner will be determined by "best" sorting.

* Winner gets reddit gold, special winner flair, and bragging rights.

* All top-level replies to this thread should be submissions. Non-submissions (including questions, comments, etc.) belong in [the meta thread](http://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/39dxi3), and will be aggressively removed from here.

* Top-level replies must be a link to Google Docs, a PDF, your personal website, etc. It is suggested that you include a word count and a title when you're linking to somewhere else.

* In the interest of keeping the playing field level, please refrain from cross-posting to other places until after the winner has been decided.

* No idea what rational fiction is? [Read the wiki!](http://www.reddit.com/r/rational/wiki/index)

##### Meta

If you think you have a good prompt for a challenge, [add it to the list](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B6HaZc8FYkr6l6Q4cwBc9_-Yq1g0f_HmdHK5L1tbEbA/edit?usp=sharing) (remember that [a good prompt is not a recipe](http://www.reddit.com/r/WritingPrompts/wiki/prompts?src=RECIPE)). If you think that you have a good modification to the rules, let me know in a comment [in the meta thread](http://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/39dxi3). Also, if you want a quick index of past challenges, I've [posted them on the wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/wiki/weeklychallenge).

##### Next Week

Next week's prompt is slightly different from the usual; instead of a trope or genre, we'll be doing a specific canon of work. The theme is "Disney Movies". Pick you favorite Disney movie and write the rational version of it! (Depending on the response, we might have more of these in the future; if you have a canon you really think would work well for a challenge, add it to the list.)

**Next week's thread will go up on 8/12.** Please confine any questions or comments to [the meta thread](http://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/39dxi3).

### Comments:

> **u/eniteris** [+40]  (12 minutes later)
> 
> [Spur](http://eniteris.com/spur)
> 
> 4545 words

>> **u/EliezerYudkowsky** [+5]  *Godric Gryffindor* (15 days later)
>> 
>> This is excellent.  Has Robin Hanson seen it yet?

>>> **u/eniteris** [+2]  (15 days later)
>>> 
>>> I actually read through Hanson's draft for the Age of Em (where a fair bit of the inspiration comes from), although I haven't shared it with him yet.

>>>> **u/EliezerYudkowsky** [+7]  *Godric Gryffindor* (16 days later)
>>>> 
>>>> Do you want me to send it to him?

>>>>> **u/eniteris** [+2]  (16 days later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> That would be nice.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Although I did get irritated at him once in the comments of Overcoming Bias, and provided conflicting names (I don't like giving my real name out on the internet.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Tell him it's by "Jennifer".

>> **u/avret** [+5]  *SDHS rationalist* (43 minutes later)
>> 
>> This was excellent.

>> **u/None** [+3]  (5 hours later)
>> 
>> Excellent. Got a bit lost with some of the names halfway through, but it made more sense after that.

>> **u/PeridexisErrant** [+3]  *put aside fear for courage, and death for life* (10 hours later)
>> 
>> Wow.  An excellent use of Eigenselves...

>> **u/Kishoto** [+2]  (14 hours later)
>> 
>> This was a pretty good read. I got a bit lost in the middle with all of the esoterics but I think that's more a problem with me being tired and not fully appreciating and processing the work. Overall though, a good read. Could qualify as Rational Horror too, IMHO.

>> **u/None** [+2]  (a day later)
>> 
>> So, did that one guy only use that other guy?

>>> **u/eniteris** [+3]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> Which one guy?
>>> 
>>> Allfather is using someone  else's backups and spawned Hymn and Deckard.
>>> 
>>> Hymn spawned Weir and Knott.
>>> 
>>> Deckard spawned Batty, in addition to Loyalty Box Deckard and Refactored Deckard, as well as restoring Refactored Hymn.

>>>> **u/None** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> I mean, did Allfather use James-derived instances exclusively, or did he create his own Spurs?

>>>>> **u/eniteris** [+3]  (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> The story only shows James-derived spurs; I imply that James-derived spurs were only used for short-lived spurs (<1 month), whereas longer-lived spurs were spawned from copies of him.
>>>>> 
>>>>> (I cut out a section about the Allfather's cadre of economists, always in fasttime, experiencing decades a week. The live for a few decades, then teach the younger spurs as they are replaced. Those would be All-father spurs, as the longer life gives them too high of a chance of discovering the secret, given the amount of information they deal with.)

>>> **u/blazinghand** [+2]  *Chaos Undivided* (2 days later)
>>> 
>>> Given that this is a story about clones, this is an amazing question.

>> **u/TehSuckerer** [+1]  (23 days later)
>> 
>> Spoiler code doesn't seem to work, somehow. So all I can do is this:
>> SPOILER AHEAD
>> 
>> Why couldn't the rogues just blurt out "We're not him!" in conversation?

>>> **u/eniteris** [+1]  (28 days later)
>>> 
>>> I guess I didn't get it across well enough, but it's also about context.
>>> 
>>> if someone blurted out the answer to a question you're not even asking, you're not going to recognize it as what it is.
>>> 
>>> The rogues have to ensure that the Bladerunner is thinking along the same lines before they can try to memetically subvert them.

>>>> **u/TehSuckerer** [+1]  (28 days later)
>>>> 
>>>> Hm, I'm not satisfied with this answer. Something as simple as "The Allfather is an impostor" doesn't need anything else to be understood. On top of that, the rogue ended up giving the MC the information in a really roundabout way that is far harder to be interpreted correctly.
>>>> 
>>>> You're also talking about "memetic subversion" here as if it's some abstract science fiction stuff when in your story the memetic hazard was something really straightforward and easy to understand. Everyday logic should apply.

> **u/LiteralHeadCannon** [+14]  (3 minutes later)
> 
> [Zero To God In Negative Four Hundred And Thirty Three Quintillion Seconds](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SatxiYGIV2u2te1fd40rE659U7ZWkUjtShVIoC_lHYg/edit?usp=sharing)
> 
> 2037 words

>> **u/adgnatum** [+3]  (14 days later)
>> 
>> Strip-mining artists is a thing I have thought of. Nice to see it elsewhere. But then you take it a step further and iterate. I imagine the quality would increase if they learned from themselves.

>> **u/avret** [+1]  *SDHS rationalist* (38 minutes later)
>> 
>> Perhaps I'm missing something, but why is ending entropy and death in a single universe well and truly winning?

>>> **u/LiteralHeadCannon** [+3]  (49 minutes later)
>>> 
>>> Because based on the stated facts, it's the best that can be done, except perhaps to create an endless cycle of reproducing entropy-and-death-free universes - but it's also stated that natural splitting produces infinitely more universes than time travel, so the moral superiority of that even is doubtful.

>>>> **u/None** [+4]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> Also, when you realize that most value calculations are rendered meaningless by the addition of an infinity, you may as well fall back on monkey-brain morals and do what makes you feel like a good person.

>>>> **u/avret** [+1]  *SDHS rationalist* (an hour later)
>>>> 
>>>> Well, it would seem that adding more universes is almost tautologically morally superior(at least assuming utilitarianism's axioms)

> **u/Kishoto** [+13]  (10 hours later)
> 
> [N2 and You!](https://kishoto.wordpress.com/2015/08/06/n2-and-you-rrational-challenge-clones-clones-and-clones/)
> 
> 3754 words

>> **u/eniteris** [+3]  (16 hours later)
>> 
>> Quite nice, a mashup between assembly teleportation and the existence of an afterlife.
>> 
>> Though I'm a bit iffy on the zombies; didn't add too much (the Buffets are nice), and symptoms of aggression seems a bit contrived.
>> 
>> Although why aren't the Buffetts zombies all zombies? (if they're using N2s five times a week, wouldn't they all have progressed Mover's Sickness?)

>>> **u/Kishoto** [+4]  (17 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Note: [](#s "Keep in mind a lot of what is said about the rich people in this story is biased. The residents here hate the rich, because their overuse of N2's leads to a lot of Ragged running around and a lot of rich people clones running around. In this story, the rich tend to just stick together with their own duplicates and form their own communities. So the Buffets involved in the attack aren't zombies. They're the community of clones of the Buffet family, with varying degrees of fraying. And fraying CAN be recovered from, albeit slowly, unless you go Ragged. So you're left with communities of clones of rich people. 
>>> Also, they don't literally use N2's five times a week. But they do over use them, that's undeniable. As far as the zombies go, they aren't actual zombies. It's an expression Noah used, as it conveyed the general idea. Large amounts of unreasonable humanoids that vary anywhere from complete zombie to socially conscious pack animal. 
>>> The idea is that as the *soul* degrades, the humans resemble humans less and less. I defaulted to the aggression because it's more exciting than having a bunch of roaming listless cow-people.")

>>>> **u/DaGeek247** [+1]  *Nudist Beach* (2 months later)
>>>> 
>>>> It's also possible to say that there were boring cow people, but the aggressive ones hunt them down.

>>>>> **u/Kishoto** [+1]  (3 months later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> True. It's a short story, so that's also very possible, in an expanded novel. Maybe some sort of side feature where you have people that care for "cow people" clones of close family members, because of their residual feelings for them.

>> **u/kulyok** [+3]  (2 days later)
>> 
>> I'm going by trains. Forever. Sheldon had the right idea.
>> 
>> I like it! Again, feels a little like a beginning of a larger story, especially when you start realizing what's going on.

>>> **u/Kishoto** [+3]  (3 days later)
>>> 
>>> Yes! Thank you! That's what I was going for.
>>> 
>>> On the surface, you just have Square, Sam and Noah explaining New-C's new lot in life, with a little hint of danger at the end.
>>> 
>>> But if you look deeper, it's the start of a fairly complex narrative, even if you ignore the changes up above. 
>>> 
>>> Pangea. Why do they call it that? It's an iconic, historic name, what does that imply? You have the threat of the Ragged, wild infected that vary in sanity and biology (although, just to be clear, it wouldn't get as crazy as Resident Evil's advanced zombies, but there'd definitely be some superhuman strength depending on the type)
>>> 
>>> Then you have the clones. It's made clear that there are bunches of rich people down here and they tend to form communities. Who better to get along with than yourself(ves), for those who are able to do it. But that comes with its own problems, depending on how unhinged/selfish/narcissistic the originals are. And it also depends on what kind of day they were having when they stepped through the N2. Also, what does that imply for the middle class and poorer clones? 
>>> 
>>> And lastly, the Naturals. They're brought up exactly once. But they're the people that come down the normal way. By dying. What does that imply about who's actually down here? Are people immortal here? Could you go find Alexander the Great, Hannibal or Jesus down here, if you really wanted? ;)
>>> 
>>> I tried to cram a lot of things into the background, to really make it clear how deep the implications of the N2 and the soul's existence is in this world.

>> **u/gonight** [+1]  *i shouldn't be allowed to change my own flair* (9 days later)
>> 
>> If you write more in this universe, I'd read it. I doubt I'm the only one either :)

> **u/jadekelly** [+9]  *42* (2 hours later)
> 
> [Save the world or die trying](http://i.imgur.com/ijT4oal.png)
> 
> 837 words

>> **u/Newfur** [+3]  *Crazy like a fox. Literally.* (9 hours later)
>> 
>> Ouch. That's... rather too real. :P

>>> **u/jadekelly** [+2]  *42* (14 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I suppose it is a bit of a cynical outlook. Is it good, though, as a story? This is really my first time writing anything, so if anyone has any suggestions for how to improve, I'd love to hear them!

>>>> **u/BadGoyWithAGun** [+2]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> Why would you post it as a barely readable image of text?

>>>>> **u/jadekelly** [+1]  *42* (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> That was the easiest and most expedient thing for me to do at the time. I'm sorry it is barely readable; it looked all right in my browser.

>>>>>> **u/Kishoto** [+3]  (a day later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It seems fairly readable once you magnify. But if you have a large display, the auto-magnify isnt sufficient. Just "Ctrl-+" my friend :)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But yea, using a google doc or pastebin would've probably been better.

>>>>>>> **u/jadekelly** [+1]  *42* (2 days later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks, I'll keep that in mind!

>> **u/Kishoto** [+3]  (10 hours later)
>> 
>> Humans will be humans, I guess. Yay procrastination! Or not yay, as it were, I suppose...

>> **u/zian** [+1]  (a month later)
>> 
>> It was painful to read the text on imgur. In the future, would you mind posting the text as text?

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