scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/3n2vns.md

## Pokemon: The Origin of Species, Chapter 24 - The Art of Persuasion

* Author: u/DaystarEld  *Pokémon Professor**
* URL: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9794740/24/Pokemon-The-Origin-of-Species
* Score: 45

* Created: 2015-10-01T08:26:28

### Post:

[Link to content](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9794740/24/Pokemon-The-Origin-of-Species)

### Comments:

> **u/DaystarEld** [+10]  *Pokémon Professor* (2 minutes later)
> 
> Hey all, welcome back! Two things of note unrelated to this chapter: First, I finally got around to updating Chapter 1 to improve the characterizations of Red and Blue off the bat. Second, I finally completed and uploaded a digital copy of the full flowchart that Red used in Chapter 20 upon noticing that he was upset. I put it in an earlier post, and here it is again:
> 
> https://i.imgur.com/q5tYYSA.jpg
> 
> All feedback on either is appreciated, as always!
> 
> As for this chapter, I just want to quickly note that the grant application and endowment process for research is far more streamlined and rapid in the Pokemon world than ours. Red's experience, grueling as it is, is not at all representative of the full struggle researchers in our world go through.
> 
> I'll get around to another major edit wave for the chapter sometime tomorrow. In the meantime, feel free to post any typos I missed in response here.

>> **u/elevul** [+2]  *Cyoria Observer* (2 days later)
>> 
>> I like the flowchart! Mind if I share it around?

>>> **u/DaystarEld** [+2]  *Pokémon Professor* (2 days later)
>>> 
>>> Go for it :)

> **u/None** [+8]  (an hour later)
> 
> In a previous chapter, you mentioned that letting Blue win in his first match against Brock would have set a bad precedent storywise, that you felt it would reinforce a stereotype of him. Yet you also mention, and Blue laments, that the current Elite Four members were undefeated. I don't think this is something Blue himself would casually overlook. Why *doesn't* he manage to achieve what they did? What did they do that he didn't? What didn't they do that he did?
> 
> As a rational fiction protagonist, he should perhaps want an answer to this before he comes back, and "use a stronger pokemon" shouldn't be the whole of his solution without some reflection, it would feel nearly as cheap to the story as being handed the victory in the first place. Now perhaps it can be part of it. Shiftry is Dark. Did Agatha win her gym trials with a strong lead of ghosts and poison? Did Bruno win with rocks and fighting? If so one might deduce that matching pokemon to your personal type affinity is important, and justify Shiftry.
> 
> Or perhaps, the exceptional circumstances by which Blue's skill and friends for backup led him to own a massively overleveled pokemon ahead of the gym rating schedule (first badge, oh, and my guy's level 30 btw, pikachu, quick attack that rock to death) - in exactly the same way that the Elite Four have managed. Through personal risk and hardship, they get powerful pokemon ahead of schedule and so blow through the tiered ranking system that didn't plan for that.
> 
> Or maybe I'm just full of it. What do you think?

>> **u/DaystarEld** [+9]  *Pokémon Professor* (8 hours later)
>> 
>> As /u/Alphanos said, Blue had delusions of grandeur: he's definitely above average in skill, but he was trying to beat the records of his idols, not just getting his badges faster than they did but also assuming he'd be undefeated. He lost because he simply didn't put in the time or training that he needed to make sure his pokemon were strong enough or well trained enough.
>> 
>> As for "use a stronger pokemon," there's definitely more skill involved in that than in the games. They try to put a soft limit on how powerful your pokemon can get too early by making your pokemon occasionally not listen to your orders if they get too high a level: I believe the threshold before the first badge is level 30 pokemon and up stop listening to their trainer.
>> 
>> But while a good idea and a cool concept to reflect the trainer's lack of experience making it hard to control more mature pokemon, it's poorly implemented. Level 25 is more than enough to beat the first badge, hell, level 20 is even overdoing it.  On top of that, the power difference is just so strong between levels that even if your pokemon stops obeying you all the time, as long as they get one attack off every few turns they'll still melt whatever's in front of them.
>> 
>> So yes, Blue's idea (because he still wants to win quickly) is to put in the time and training not just with his other pokemon, but also to train his unruly shiftry for the raw power he needs.  Having such a strong pokemon is an invaluable asset, and taking the time to train it properly should be a high priority for any trainer that gets one.

>>> **u/MirWasTaken** [+4]  (9 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I believe the levelcap where pokemon start to disobey you only applies to traded pokemon, so that you can't receive a level 90 pokemon at the start of the game from a friend.

>>>> **u/DaystarEld** [+6]  *Pokémon Professor* (10 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> I think you're right, which kind of makes sense. If you raised a pokemon from a young age it's probably more attached to you, though that kind of breaks down with the idea of just catching a really high level pokemon (usually gated in the game anyway, since you need certain badges to reach areas with high levels of pokemon).

>>>>> **u/iaido22** [+2]  (12 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Nope, even your own pokemon disregard orders without the required badges.

>>>>>> **u/NotAHeroYet** [+3]  *City of Angles Municipal Government* (13 hours later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In more recent games, they will obey without the badges, though in some games they wouldn't. (note this only counts for your pokemon- not traded ones.)

>>>>>>> **u/iaido22** [+1]  (14 hours later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Having played all the games so far, and looking through bulbapedia, all pokemon may still disobey trainers if they are too high level without proper badges. I think in X/Y the initial cap was raised from 10 to 20 tough.

>>>>>>>> **u/NotAHeroYet** [+3]  *City of Angles Municipal Government* (16 hours later)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> have you had it happen to you? I am currently at 70% certainity that it only happens for traded pokemon, as i have reached excessive levels in the early game before without pokemon disobeying. (level 30 pre-first gym, once in saphire, when i got lost. level 70 before gym number 8, in gold.) I could be mistaken, though.

>>>>>>>>> **u/iaido22** [+1]  (16 hours later)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Had it happen first time I played X, before I turned off the EXP share.

>>>> **u/iaido22** [+1]  (12 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> No, even your own will not listen to you without the required badges.

>>>>> **u/MirWasTaken** [+1]  (13 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bulbapedia disagrees with you.
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Obedience

>>>>>> **u/iaido22** [+1]  (14 hours later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Having just looked through, perhaps you can show me what section you are talking about, because everything seems to say that both traded and caught pokemon may disobey a trainer.

>>>>>>> **u/NotAHeroYet** [+1]  *City of Angles Municipal Government* (16 hours later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> When a Pokémon is obtained in a trade, it oftentimes will not obey the player's commands if it is at too high a level and the player does not have the appropriate Badge or number of Badges. ~bulbapedia
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> (iff pokemon obtained in trade and too high level for badges)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> first line of essay, control f for it.

>>>>>>> **u/SkeevePlowse** [+1]  (16 hours later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The very first line on that page after the header 'In the Games' reads thusly:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> > When a Pokémon is obtained in a trade, it oftentimes will not obey the player's commands if it is at too high a level and the player does not have the appropriate Badge or number of Badges.

>>>>>>>> **u/iaido22** [+1]  (17 hours later)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I am not sure if you're responding to the wrong person, or pointing out that the passage only says traded pokemon with no reference to caught pokemon. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In the case of the second, while it may not specifically state that caught pokemon will disobey neither does it say anywhere on the page that they will not, and I have personally had it happen (for whatever that's worth).

>>> **u/None** [+1]  (8 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Well explained. Thank you.

>> **u/Alphanos** [+14]  *The Bright Powers* (2 hours later)
>> 
>> > Yet you also mention, and Blue laments, that the current Elite Four members were undefeated. I don't think this is something Blue himself would casually overlook. Why *doesn't* he manage to achieve what they did? What did they do that he didn't? What didn't they do that he did?
>> 
>> Blue had two competing goals: to win undefeated, and to issue and complete the required challenges in as short a time period as possible.  I believe it was mentioned that those who were able to complete the challenges undefeated took longer to do so.  It's only natural that it would take longer to be assured of success.  Blue impulsively tried to shave off time in his speedrun attempt, but he wasn't ready, so he ended up failing the undefeated goal by prioritizing the speed goal.
>> 
>> Also, despite him being a main character of the story, there's no inherent guarantee that his talent and capabilities match all of the famous trainers he's comparing himself to.  Wanting something and working towards it aren't always enough.  Even among Olympic-level athletes, not everyone can be a world-record holder.

>>> **u/GaBeRockKing** [+3]  *Horizon Breach: http://archiveofourown.org/works/6785857* (11 hours later)
>>> 
>>> And I suppose it's supported canonically, in that lance and agatha are pretty darn old themselves.

> **u/Drexer** [+5]  (13 hours later)
> 
> Also, on an unrelated note, I'm considering perhaps writing a short half-a-dozen-chapters fanfic in the same world you're presenting here, exploring a contrasting but similar perspective from the work you're doing here based on both the details of the universe you've explored so far and some suppositions/explorations I've mentally made of the same subject.
> 
> Would that be ok with you?

>> **u/DaystarEld** [+2]  *Pokémon Professor* (a day later)
>> 
>> Absolutely, I look forward to seeing it!

> **u/Nevereatcars** [+8]  *The Greatest Is Behind* (36 minutes later)
> 
> Chater 24 - The Art of Persuasion: In which Red and Leaf write essays, and Blue is overconfident.

>> **u/DaystarEld** [+9]  *Pokémon Professor* (8 hours later)
>> 
>> Haha. Reminds me of [this](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e2/3a/75/e23a75e17a631d09b23eb5e69794e666.jpg).
>> 
>> (The book is called Name of the Wind, and if anyone here hasn't read it, do Future You a favor and go get a copy now)

>>> **u/Nevereatcars** [+2]  *The Greatest Is Behind* (9 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Your image is making me question why that book was so amazing. ~~definitely not just an excuse to re-read it!~~

>>>> **u/DaystarEld** [+2]  *Pokémon Professor* (10 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> I've been waiting for the next book to be announced to do another reread, but I might do one earlier after I get my hands on Auri's novella sidestory. Such a great series deserves frequent rereads.

>>>>> **u/Nevereatcars** [+3]  *The Greatest Is Behind* (10 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> The Slow Regard of Silent Things is one of the weirdest poems I've ever read.

>>>>>> **u/DaystarEld** [+1]  *Pokémon Professor* (10 hours later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> That's the impression I got from others. Have you read Only Revolutions, by Mark Z. Danielewski (guy who wrote House of Leaves)? I'm curious to know if it beats it out in that regard.

>>>>>>> **u/Nevereatcars** [+1]  *The Greatest Is Behind* (10 hours later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Alas, I've never even heard of it.

>>>>>>>> **u/DaystarEld** [+1]  *Pokémon Professor* (a day later)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> House of Leaves is a fantastic horror novel/documentary/journal, but Only Revolutions is a novel written exclusively in poetry from two perspectives frontward and backward, printed on each page rightside up and upside down, simultaneously.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It's a trip, though not for everyone.

>>>>>> **u/whywhisperwhy** [+1]  (13 hours later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I remember when it came out and it had a horrific Amazon score / reviews, because people were expecting it to be like the main series and the vast majority of the reviews said it was boring.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Which is too bad because even though it answered approximately zero questions, it was a really original, charming novel. Although it does make me wonder [spoilers through Wise Man's Fear](#s "if Auri was a mage student gone insane as Namers are wont to do; her way of looking at the world just seems to fit so well with that. Or if something horrific happened to her- there's hints that she was involved with the Amyr  and I think she's older than she seems so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch")
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  [](#s ).

>>>>>>> **u/Nevereatcars** [+1]  *The Greatest Is Behind* (16 hours later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> [Additional spoilers](#s " I think she's definitely mad the way the students at the University's Asylum were; I've also entertained the thought that she might be some kind of faerie.")

> **u/None** [+4]  (9 hours later)
> 
> >A month here
> 
> That caught me off guard. I was still thinking of the story like the video game instead of a snapshot of someone's life.  I have been eagerly waiting to read about the rational and unscrupulous magikarp salesman.
> 
> This was a good chapter and I would not mind reading more like it. Your character building is strong.

>> **u/Nevereatcars** [+5]  *The Greatest Is Behind* (9 hours later)
>> 
>> 500 bucks for a magikarp when a single pokeball is worth that much cash? Why WOULDN'T you take the deal?
>> 
>> That gyarados was my star.

>>> **u/liamash3** [+3]  *Mizu* (18 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I'd imagine that Magikarp are not known to evolve into Gyarados by most people in-verse, perhaps, or that it takes a lot of time and training for a 'weak' Pokemon such as Magikarp to evolve when taken out of the game context.
>>> 
>>> I mean, if you need to train and work with a 'mon who can only flop about until it evolves, it's unsurprising most pass it off as too much effort.

> **u/None** [+3]  (5 hours later)
> 
> [deleted]

>> **u/Superguy2876** [+3]  (6 hours later)
>> 
>> I agree, it was all really informative, but at the same time it was like nothing really happened. Both red and leafs' parts felt like we were about to get into the story, then it just cuts away.

>> **u/DaystarEld** [+2]  *Pokémon Professor* (8 hours later)
>> 
>> Hey, thanks for the typo spot and the feedback. I actually thought of just showing what she writes, but had two problems with it: 1) It would mean a chapter with pretty much zero dialogue and all exposition, and 2) It would miss an opportunity to show Leaf and Laura's relationship develop "on screen" rather than as an informed trait.
>> 
>> That said, I probably didn't get the balance of information and immersion right. I had the same problem with chapter 6 originally, and ended up rewriting it after publishing to make things more compelling. If I can think of a way to do that this time around while still respecting 1 and 2, I'll do so :)

> **u/Belgarion262** [+1]  (an hour later)
> 
> Damn man, I really like this series.
> 
> Here is me encouraging you :)

>> **u/DaystarEld** [+1]  *Pokémon Professor* (8 hours later)
>> 
>> Thank you, glad you're enjoying it!

> **u/Psy-Kosh** [+1]  (9 hours later)
> 
> One minor thingie. Leaf used "logic, emotion, and ethics", but not appeal to authority.
> 
> I'm assuming you're referencing the notion of Logos, Pathos, and Ethos... but I think Ethos/ethics in that context actually means a sort of appeal to authority of the speaker. (Or have I totally misunderstood?)

>> **u/DaystarEld** [+2]  *Pokémon Professor* (10 hours later)
>> 
>> The sets of concepts have a parallel structure, but refer to slightly different things. In this case, an appeal to ethics would be an attempt to compel the reader through moral obligations or duty, not necessarily an appeal to the ethical authority of the speaker.

>>> **u/Psy-Kosh** [+1]  (11 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Yeah. Just that you grouped them, making it sound like you were talking about the traditional rhetorical "logos, pathos, ethos" thing.
>>> 
>>> Other than that, just a question re clarification:
>>> 
>>> Are we meant to assume that Red eventually off screen told Blue, Leaf, and his mom that it turns out that he's psychic, or those conversations haven't happened yet?
>>> 
>>> Oh, also, was wondering why didn't Leaf want to explain about how she didn't want to do a "humans vs pokemon" thing?

>>>> **u/DaystarEld** [+1]  *Pokémon Professor* (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> > 
>>>> > Are we meant to assume that Red eventually off screen told Blue, Leaf, and his mom that it turns out that he's psychic, or those conversations haven't happened yet?
>>>> 
>>>> Nope, hasn't happened yet.
>>>> 
>>>> >Oh, also, was wondering why didn't Leaf want to explain about how she didn't want to do a "humans vs pokemon" thing?
>>>> 
>>>> Didn't want to derail the conversation mostly. It'll be explored more later :)

> **u/None** [+1]  (12 hours later)
> 
> [deleted]

>> **u/None** [+3]  (13 hours later)
>> 
>> [deleted]

>>> **u/DaystarEld** [+1]  *Pokémon Professor* (a day later)
>>> 
>>> I'm glad you're enjoying it :) There are two HPMOR sequels that I think might fit the bill too, if you haven't read them: Draco Malfoy and the Practice of Rationality, and Significant Digits.

>>>> **u/whywhisperwhy** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> I'm disappointed in myself for forgetting about Significant Digits- I do think it has rationalist elements and fits the bill. But I would characterize TOoS as having a "teaching" rationalist tone that ironically is more reminiscent of HPMoR than Significant Digits. 
>>>> 
>>>> And I will definitely give the Draco Malfoy fanfic a try, then... It's just getting pretty hard to keep up with all the HPMoR fanfics we have nowadays.

>>>>> **u/DaystarEld** [+1]  *Pokémon Professor* (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> True, but those are the only two that I'm aware of continuing to update. Might have missed a few, I haven't tried the Following the Phoenix sequel yet so not sure about that one.
>>>>> 
>>>>> There was also the Ginny Weasley one too, but that finished, and turned out to be kinda disappointing anyway, for all it's occasional brilliance.

>> **u/NotAHeroYet** [+3]  *City of Angles Municipal Government* (13 hours later)
>> 
>> It's simple. in the games, adult pokemon are substantially stronger than the basic ones. shiftry is fully evolved/metamorphosized and with the removal of general levels as per the video games, or at least the loss of the interface, this is one of the most obvious patterns- raichu can do more than pikachu, which is generally true. plus, while shiftry aren't amazing species in top-level play in the games, they are a substantial upgrade from squirtle, pidgey and rattatata, while a smaller downgrade from from other potent pokemon, like steelix and alakazam. compined with type advantage, (shiftry is grass/psychic, and onix's special defense is mediocre.) shiftry is a very dangerous weapon against brock's pokemon, and that's why blue wants to use it.
>> 
>> the setting seems to break the pokemon rules on occasion, but this is a pretty common one.

>> **u/DaystarEld** [+3]  *Pokémon Professor* (a day later)
>> 
>> Blue's section was thin because he had two chapters to himself just before this. Not that I'm trying to balance each character perspective perfectly, but I like to mix it up when I can.
>> 
>> As /u/notaheroyet says, more evolved and older pokemon are generally much stronger than younger ones. I'll add a few lines about it though :)
>> 
>> And I'm glad to hear you're getting so much from the story. Thanks for reading!

> **u/Drexer** [+1]  (13 hours later)
> 
> Ok so first of all, good chapters all around lately, I haven't had the availability to comment on the updates but I've read them all as they've come out and I've appreciated a lot the full characterization of the universe as well as the gradual build up of the characters and their reactions and expectations to the society around them.
> 
> Pulling now from two different but intertwined points, I would like to explore again the idea of scientific publications on the Pokemon world.
> 
> The first is simply this, are there no state/country grants? You mention the Pallet Lab as an option, but even if there are more organizations and private companies performing research all around I would imagine the governing bodies(which I'll honestly admit I don't really remember which structure you've described as having) possess a general research grant proposal system to prevent from any one lab unfairly advantaging their local researchers instead of the most skilled ones. This would not be necessary to be a current option, because I would assume this would be similar to our world, and like many countries, those specific grants would be open for submission on a strickly defined period of time with annual regularity. This ties into my second point.
> 
> While Red is pre-committing to stopping his investment before it gets out of hand, and even though he added the "for now" on his project, it's also a common behaviour for people to have an inertia to resume their previously abandoned projects. Would it not be more realistic considering his character to also stipulate a future point where he might approach this idea gain, re-evaluate its worth and perhaps repeat the process? After all seasonal interest might also have an influence in his various rejections.
> 
> I brought up the first point because I thought it would work well with this second point. Postponing his grant applications until the annual grant proposition period seems like a reasonable and well defined goal for a rational Red.
> 
> Perhaps I'm just over thinking this because I'm more involved with this kind of stuff nowadays, but either way keep up the good work.

>> **u/DaystarEld** [+1]  *Pokémon Professor* (a day later)
>> 
>> >The first is simply this, are there no state/country grants? 
>> 
>> There are, but they very rarely give them to independent researchers, let alone novice ones.
>> 
>> >While Red is pre-committing to stopping his investment before it gets out of hand, and even though he added the "for now" on his project, it's also a common behaviour for people to have an inertia to resume their previously abandoned projects. Would it not be more realistic considering his character to also stipulate a future point where he might approach this idea gain, re-evaluate its worth and perhaps repeat the process? After all seasonal interest might also have an influence in his various rejections.
>> 
>> Possibly, but I think his perspective is that he'll find so many other things to potentially research that short of some other new observation making this one relevant again, it won't need to be revisited anytime soon. 
>> 
>> >I brought up the first point because I thought it would work well with this second point. Postponing his grant applications until the annual grant proposition period seems like a reasonable and well defined goal for a rational Red.
>> 
>> You know, I think that works pretty well. It's a long shot from his perspective, but at least worth a try. I'll add that in when I get the chance, thanks for the suggestion :)
>> 
>> >Perhaps I'm just over thinking this because I'm more involved with this kind of stuff nowadays, but either way keep up the good work.
>> 
>> Not at all, comments like yours encourage me to keep thinking through my ideas and refining the story.  Thanks for the feedback!
>> 
>> Also, are/were you Denubis on Fanfiction, by chance?

> **u/liamash3** [+1]  *Mizu* (19 hours later)
> 
> Interesting chapter, seeing how Red went about getting grants for his research, and Leaf formed her article to change the view towards the Pewter Museum. I'm quite curious as to how Blue shall end up training his Shiftry, considering it likely only remembers him as 'that guy who cut my limbs off' :P

>> **u/DaystarEld** [+1]  *Pokémon Professor* (a day later)
>> 
>> Yep, that'll certainly be the challenge :)

>>> **u/None** [+4]  (2 days later)
>>> 
>>> Hey, maybe that what counts as respect for a Dark-type. "This guy cut my freaking limbs off. That makes him the head honchkrow. I better fall in line."

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