scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/3v90dw.md

## Metropolitan Man ruined my hype for Batman Vs. Superman [D]

* Author: u/KharakIsBurning *
* URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/3v90dw/metropolitan_man_ruined_my_hype_for_batman_vs/
* Score: 122

* Created: 2015-12-03T06:18:08

### Post:

/u/alexanderwales wrote the defining piece about how I approach any DC universe work, and now I can't approach it at all.

In the new trailer, it seems Batman clearly articulates Wales's Lex Luthor's primary concern: Superman is an existential threat to humanity, and must be destroyed. This motivating factor is explicitly stated in the newest movie trailer, and is explicitly stated in Metropolitan Man. 

Yet, it is obvious that is where the two diverge. While Lex daftly maneuvers around the Kryptonian in the fan fiction, it is obvious that Lex Zuckerberg and Batman only know how to use force. They will not find out Superman's weaknesses by probing at the edge of his powers. They will attempt to destroy him by (1) building a better batsuit and when that fails (2) making an even more powerful existential threat. Batman will switch to Superman's side to defeat this Big Bad along with the help of Wonder Woman. 

That is, the power balance will be changed and *the side that can punch harder will win*. 

God. It could be a good movie, too. It could have a good script and good action and not be as dark-and-edgy as its going for... but Metropolitan Man will always be in the back of my mind saying "this is dumb. hey. this is dumb."

### Comments:

> **u/LiteralHeadCannon** [+50]  (33 minutes later)
> 
> The truly shameful thing is that they had two sensible paths they could have chosen.  Either take the Metropolitan Man route, and write something that *isn't* dumb, or knowingly, openly write something dumb, something where your brain can tune out while some neat nonsense action scenes play.   And instead they chose to do the latter dressed up as the former, and, as is often the case, the refusal to specialize causes efficiency to hit rock bottom.

>> **u/KharakIsBurning** [+27]  (an hour later)
>> 
>> I think one thing may be just the nature of film: it's an extremely emotional medium. Batman can't be driven by cold calculation. Lex can't be driven by calculation. Batman must be motivated by visible anger- something you can see on the actor's face. Lex has to be motivated by greed.  In fact, I'd put money on him literally being told to his face in the movie that he is greedy.

>>> **u/duffmancd** [+28]  (7 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Just because film is an emotional medium doesn't mean that the characters have to be driven by simple emotions. We could have seen this from Batman's point of view, the destruction wrought by Superman even as he battled Zod. The casual, offhand, collateral damage. We see and understand his fear. Then he has  to be pleasant to the existential threat, whilst planning his defeat.
>>> 
>>> Of course this would mean that you'd have to completely change the genre from comic book beat'em up to character driven thriller. You might have one big fight at the end for the movie's sake with batman going through a mad scramble of more and more desperate gambles. But you don't want to fail to take out the planet-killer.
>>> 
>>> (Thinking out loud) Though I guess you could have Superman untouched and merciful at the end if the fight (now in the middle of the movie). If you wanted to try and get as close to canon situations at the end, Bruce and Lex may have originally been working together (with separate cell structures in case one is compromised) but when their last ditch efforts prove fruitless, Bruce realises that it's better to have the Superman on your side, while Lex doubles down and can't handle the risk he poses. Bruce gets proved right as the world needs Supes to protect against some huge alien attack, just as Lex attacks again (unfortunate timing) and Batman has to take care of one problem while Supes deals with the other. The movie is not so much about Superman as it is about how Bruce and Lex react to him, Supes is the force-of-nature from Greek play. This way we get to focus on the human emotions rather than whatever Superman feels.

>>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+18]  *Mouse Army* (5 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Mh. Ozymandias in watchmen very readily portrayed the "cold calculating" thing; but also had hugely less screentime than eg. batman in a batman movie.

>>>> **u/OutOfNiceUsernames** [+14]  *fear of last pages* (7 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Watchmen’s been the only superhero movie so far that I’ve really enjoyed.

>>>>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+12]  *Mouse Army* (7 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Its a very close replication of the comic actually. The only other superhero movie that comes close (I think even surpasses it!) in terms of cinematographic prowess is the original "dark knight". 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Also has some some very nice game theoretic lessons shoved in the audiences face :D

>>>>>> **u/eaglejarl** [+5]  (13 hours later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> > Its a very close replication of the comic actually. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Well, except for the part where they completely changed Ozymandias's plan, and the new version wasn't well set up in-story. But yes, the rest of it was very faithful, and really well done.

>>>>>>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+14]  *Mouse Army* (13 hours later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Movie Ozy plan is actually kinda better than the original comic book plan IMO. Less convoluted, comick-y, 70-year-ish tentacle monster invasion-y... That the presented enemy is (fundamentally) human reinforces the other message of the movie about the trouble humans have with coordination among themselfes. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Though as to your argument of "not well set up" - well its been a bit but the tentacle monsters arent set up at all either IIRC, and there is some foreshadowing in the movie.

>>>>>>>> **u/eaglejarl** [+6]  (14 hours later)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> >  "not well set up" 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The problem is that Ozy's new plan depends on "this energy has Doctor M's signature" but (AFAIR) there is never any discussion of Doctor M *having* a signature, nor is there any clear evidence why he should.

>>>>>>>> **u/Uncaffeinated** [+6]  (21 hours later)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The tentacle monsters are technically foreshadowed in the comics, but they understandably had to cut all that for time in the movie.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> [Watchmen](#s "Specially, the whole pirate comic subplot, followed by the mention that the comic artists mysteriously disappeared. There's also the mention of Comedian going to an island in Cuba and seeing something strange."). It's not particularly great foreshadowing, but it's there.

>> **u/TimTravel** [+7]  (a day later)
>> 
>> I agree. I love Axe Cop and Metropolitan Man but I'd hate to see one dressed up as the other.

> **u/PeridexisErrant** [+34]  *put aside fear for courage, and death for life* (2 hours later)
> 
> > God. It could be a good movie, too. It could have a good script and good action and not be as dark-and-edgy as its going for... but Metropolitan Man will always be in the back of my mind saying "this is dumb. hey. this is dumb."
> 
> So.  /u/KharakIsBurning, you have begun to suspect the terrible secret of rational fiction,  that most people never even realize that competence is possible.  Now you have a choice to make.  Take the blue mnestic, and [\[REDACTED\]](#s "████████████████████").  You'll be happy, we hope.
> 
> Or take the red nootropic, and [\[REDACTED\]](#s "No shortcuts, you have to work it out for yourself.").
> 
> (Yes, rational fiction is a memetic hazard, in some circumstances.  So is every interesting idea though.)

>> **u/None** [+17]  (13 hours later)
>> 
>> [deleted]

>>> **u/None** [+9]  (2 days later)
>>> 
>>> As Kirito in SAO abriged episode 8 said so succinctly:
>>> 
>>> "Oh my god...We Flowers for Algeroned ourselves?"

>>> **u/gonight** [+3]  *i shouldn't be allowed to change my own flair* (2 days later)
>>> 
>>> you know, I've noticed the same thing. part of me is a bit angry about it, the other part just enjoys actually reading something thought provoking.
>>> 
>>> I blame Redlettermedia's Phantom Menace review for getting this ball rolling years ago.

>>> **u/jaiwithani** [+3]  *Insufficient data for a meaningful answer* (2 months later)
>>> 
>>> http://alicorn.elcenia.com/stories/muse.shtml

>> **u/JackStargazer** [+10]  *Primordial Apologist* (16 hours later)
>> 
>> Did you mean amnestic? Mnestics *enhance* memory through the mechanism of [[REDACTED]](#s ) to the point where you can remember even things which have antimemetic properties, such as SCP-[    ](#s  "--------"  ) or [    ](#s  "**/*****/*/**"  ).

>>> **u/PeridexisErrant** [+1]  *put aside fear for courage, and death for life* (a day later)
>>> 
>>> No, I definitely meant mnestic.  
>>> 
>>> If it's not obvious why, try not to think about it.  For your own sake.

>> **u/None** [+3]  (5 hours later)
>> 
>> [removed]

>>> **u/PeridexisErrant** [+11]  *put aside fear for courage, and death for life* (6 hours later)
>>> 
>>> > There’s a ███ joke that goes something like this:
>>> 
>>> Please repost your comment with the cognitohazardous elements censored.

>>>> **u/GaBeRockKing** [+5]  *Horizon Breach: http://archiveofourown.org/works/6785857* (13 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> [\[REDACTED\]](#s "the game")

>>>> **u/mycroftxxx42** [+3]  (9 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> /thread

>>> **u/SvalbardCaretaker** [+2]  *Mouse Army* (5 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Hah.

> **u/OutOfNiceUsernames** [+37]  *fear of last pages* (7 hours later)
> 
> >Metropolitan Man ruined my hype for Batman Vs. Superman
> 
> I think the formula can be expanded to 
> 
> [the best from what much larger online communities have to offer] ruins [work of a much smaller group of professional writers]
> 
> * Tvtropes makes it hard to ignore how repetitive and poorly written general flicks are;
> * SCP makes most of horror films look boring;
> * the best of fanfics make the canon scripts look underwhelming.
> 
> The effect worsens when the producers are being lazy or afraid to create something new. Both Batman’s and Superman’s frenchises are 80 years old by now, they should be sent to a [retirement home for fictional characters,](http://imgur.com/lc0EJUm) not get new blockbusters every several years.

>> **u/daydev** [+13]  (13 hours later)
>> 
>> Tvtropes even warns you.

>> **u/historymaking101** [+10]  (15 hours later)
>> 
>> No retirement homes when films like "The Dark Knight" occasionally get produced.

>>> **u/OutOfNiceUsernames** [+7]  *fear of last pages* (22 hours later)
>>> 
>>> There’s a saying that translates into English like “to make candy out of crap”, meaning to make something good from bad-quality source material.
>>> 
>>> Nolan has been working miracles with the initially bad source material that’s the Batman franchise. But I think the series that he’s essentially been working with for half of his career would’ve been [much greater](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_%28film%29) if the filming industry had better working patterns for discovering successful, yet original long-lasting ideas instead of repeatedly falling back to older ones (e.g. Spider-Man and X-Men are only 20 years younger).

> **u/DaystarEld** [+24]  *Pokémon Professor* (8 hours later)
> 
> Branches on the Tree of Time completely ruined any future Terminator movies (as if the new ones weren't already terrible), and just made Genisys seem like even more of an incoherent mess of nonsense and wasted opportunities.
> 
> But then, part of the reason I write and read rational fiction in the first place is that most normal fiction tends to leave me with a sore forehead.

>> **u/alexanderwales** [+13]  *Time flies like an arrow* (12 hours later)
>> 
>> I want to rewrite Genisys at some point. It had a number of ideas that I really liked (Sarah Connor being raised by a terminator, Kyle going back in time to save a woman that ends up being more badass than him, Skynet trying to assimilate humanity into its design in order to cover its weaknesses). It just failed at a lot of the things it was trying to do.

>>> **u/DaystarEld** [+10]  *Pokémon Professor* (18 hours later)
>>> 
>>> If you haven't already seriously considered trying to get Branches into the hands of whoever looks at Terminator scripts, I would devote at least an hour a week for maybe a couple months figuring out how to make that happen. Have you ever written a screenplay before? They're surprisingly fun (in my experience), and stranger things have happened (the movie being made about the modern army being dropped into Roman times from that Reddit post comes to mind).

>>>> **u/__2BR02B__** [+3]  *Marxist-Lurianism* (21 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Wait, what? That happened?

>>>>> **u/DaystarEld** [+5]  *Pokémon Professor* (21 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's apparently in the process of happening.

>>>>>> **u/AmeteurOpinions** [+3]  *Finally, everyone was working together.* (a day later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I get irrationally angry whenever that project gets mentioned, because *1632* did it first and so, so much better.

>>>>>>> **u/DaystarEld** [+2]  *Pokémon Professor* (a day later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I've heard of that, and heard many good things, though apparently the writers are very much against fan-fiction of any kind. Guess switching up the time periods is another way to explore the idea.

>>>>>>>> **u/superiority** [+1]  (4 months later)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I don't know where you heard that. The author literally publishes 1632 fanfiction in physical book form and declares it canon. The series of "promoted" fanfic works is ongoing to this day in electronic form, with the blessing and oversight of Eric Flint.

>>>>>>>>> **u/DaystarEld** [+1]  *Pokémon Professor* (4 months later)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> As per TvTropes:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> >Due to the popularity of 1632 early on and the mass of Fan Fic Eric Flint has had to institute guidelines on the population of Grantville and the makeup of its residents as of the Ring of Fire. He's got it down to a list of every person in small town including their associations to everyone in the series. To use one of these persons in a story requires the approval of Flint or more likely Grantville Gazette editors Huff and Goodlett. However Flint is not opposed to these short stories upsetting his plan, and instead would like to use them to enrich the series, and perhaps take it in a new direction.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> So I was wrong to say fanfiction "of any kind," but to me something isn't really fanfic if the original author has to sign off on it. For example, the Star Wars expanded universe novels shouldn't be equivocated with the "actual" fanfic of Star Wars that exists. Not because of quality reasons or anything, just to reduce confusion.

>>>>>>>>>> **u/superiority** [+2]  (4 months later)
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Oh, that's specifically *because* it gets promoted to canon lol. Anyone can write any story they write and throw it on fanfiction.net, but if they want to have the prestige that comes with the author saying it's "real", then they have to abide by the "bible" of the series.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> But this was only because there were so many people writing stories that if every one of them created OCs, you'd end up with a small mining town that had a population of millions. These restrictions weren't in place in the beginning when the Gazette was first published.

>>> **u/historymaking101** [+1]  (15 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I feel like I've known an alexanderwales IRL, but I may be getting confused.

>>> **u/chaosmosis** [+1]  *and with strange aeons, even death may die* (19 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Yes please.

>> **u/mycroftxxx42** [+3]  (9 hours later)
>> 
>> Preston-Logan Combat Doctrine for the win!

>>> **u/Uncaffeinated** [+2]  (21 hours later)
>>> 
>>> > Preston-Logan Combat Doctrine
>>> 
>>> What's that?

>>>> **u/None** [+12]  (22 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> [deleted]

>>>>> **u/Uncaffeinated** [+1]  (22 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sounds a little reminiscent of Achron. Of course, allowing timeloops longer than 3 minutes is likely to make things much more confusing.

>>>>>> **u/mycroftxxx42** [+2]  (22 hours later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It was really just a joke that I made in a _Branches_ thread that /u/alexanderwales decided to put in the story.

>>>>> **u/pleasedothenerdful** [+1]  (6 days later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Holy shit, that's the most intellectual discussion of Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure I've ever seen. By many orders of magnitude.

>>>>>> **u/alexeyr** [+2]  *Steersman* (12 days later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So, you haven't seen http://qntm.org/excellent?

>>>>>>> **u/pleasedothenerdful** [+1]  (13 days later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> No, and I thought I'd read everything on qntm.org. I wonder how I missed it. Thanks!

>> **u/Transfuturist** [+3]  *Carthago delenda est.* (21 hours later)
>> 
>> I'm not much of a fan of BTT, but I'm not much of a fan of the actual movies in the first place. Sarah Connor Chronicles was my jam, and [Becoming John Connor](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/5652260/1/Becoming-John-Connor) (long-form lead-up to Judgement Day) and [Detour](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/6685763/1/Detour) (phenomenally written prologue and first chapter, abandoned) were my favorite fics. Both use the context of the series, so if you're not familiar, maybe watch it? :)
>> 
>> *weeps at dead show*

> **u/TaoGaming** [+20]  *No Flair Detected!* (8 hours later)
> 
> You know what ruined my hype for this movie? 
> 
> The *last* Superman movie. That could have been good, but degenerated. And the last hour (or however long that 'fight' scene was) was pointless.

>> **u/clawclawbite** [+6]  (a day later)
>> 
>> And seeing Henrey Cavil in Man from UNCLE made me see the charisma he could have had, with good scrip and direction.

>>> **u/chorpler** [+2]  (4 days later)
>>> 
>>> Oh, yes, very much so. I was surprised to see how good he was in *The Man from U.N.C.L.E.** after **Man of Steel**.

> **u/Yuridice** [+19]  (2 hours later)
> 
> Now that you've articulated it, you might have ruined it for me. Hopefully the movie still provides some worthwhile stuff. 
> 
> edit: OP you are no longer at fault, I saw the new trailer and the movie is ruined, Metropolitan Man or no

>> **u/None** [+13]  (2 hours later)
>> 
>> [deleted]

>>> **u/Takashoru** [+7]  (19 hours later)
>>> 
>>> See, I that's an etymology error, since [Roko's] was the identifier of the concept, not the concept itself.
>>> 
>>> The [Basilisk] part was what you are making reference to, so something like "the Hype Basilisk" might be more appropriate.
>>> 
>>> Assuming, of course, that we want to use Basilisk as the class name for the general concept of "The most rational path is to avoid knowledge of this".

> **u/Geminii27** [+17]  (6 hours later)
> 
> >While Lex daftly maneuvers
> 
> er... deftly?

>> **u/KharakIsBurning** [+5]  (11 hours later)
>> 
>> yes

> **u/None** [+7]  (6 hours later)
> 
> [deleted]

>> **u/duffmancd** [+19]  (6 hours later)
>> 
>> The Martian came pretty damn close for me. Less technical details and stronger emotions than the book, because, well it's a movie. But the best possible outcome for a thoughtful book to movie adaption.

>>> **u/gameboy17** [+10]  *Canterlot Campaign* (10 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I definitely agree on The Martian. The only inconsistency I noticed was that their improvised bomb had flashing lights, which is forgivable.

>>>> **u/Transfuturist** [+11]  *Carthago delenda est.* (21 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Angular momentum is not conserved. The astronauts navigating the ship head-first reach out to the walls and push towards their legs, which would add energy to their rotation in a "leaning-back" direction. The weightless center transitioning to the centrifugal spokes was very cool, though I bet if they actually showed the transition, they would ignore Coriolis forces.
>>>> 
>>>> The ridiculous-definition video chat has no interface and Cisco is branded in the upper right corner of the screen.
>>>> 
>>>> Pictures from Sojourner are constructed on the screen as jumbled overlapping views into the actual image that are then reassembled. This was particularly pointless; the next one actually had some use in pacing of the scene.
>>>> 
>>>> The hex editor Johansen uses to examine the non-image sent to the ship does not include an ASCII view, when an ASCII pane is a virtual standard, in every hex editor since Adam. She is able to identify it as "not an image file" simply looking at the hex. Then, when the plaintext file is opened (how can she open it without knowing what it is?), it types itself out on screen with formatting.
>>>> 
>>>> The spacewalk to put the bomb on the lock door would at least involve a tether and carabiner, instead of the 6DOF thriller-level intensity that was displayed (a dive straight into the spinning spokes of the grav ring?). I don't think a spacewalk would have been necessary at all.
>>>> 
>>>> The Iron Man scene was created for the movie wholesale (it was mentioned as a *joke*), and would be fatally dangerous as Watney admits in the book. Angular momentum is not conserved during this stunt either; he punches a hole in the glove of his suit and holds it out to his side, and does not turn into a whirling dervish as would actually happen. Torque has been beaten bloody and bruised in this movie.
>>>> 
>>>> Lewis, the *Commander,* would not risk herself personally to retrieve Watney when she needs to be coordinating the operation over radio. Beck was the one who tethered out to Watney in the book.
>>>> 
>>>> When Watney and Lewis are getting wrapped in the tether, pulling each other closer as though they were trying to kiss through their helmets (I ship it), AM is similarly not conserved, as their rotation should speed up when their distance decreases.
>>>> 
>>>> And finally...
>>>> 
>>>> THERE IS NO SOUND IN SPACE! Silent space in exterior shots and the limited ambient sound inside your helmet in POV shots is such a nice effect, but no.

>>>>> **u/PeridexisErrant** [+3]  *put aside fear for courage, and death for life* (a day later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Not to mention the weights room, with so much floor space and gorgeous floor-to-ceiling glass windows.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Maybe someday there'll be a hard SF space movie :(

>>>>>> **u/Transfuturist** [+6]  *Carthago delenda est.* (a day later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ...Nanomachines, son.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Anyway, this *was* the hard SF space movie. This is as hard as Hollywood gets.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hollywood has perpetual whiskey dick.

>>>>>>> **u/PeridexisErrant** [+4]  *put aside fear for courage, and death for life* (a day later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sadly, nanomachines don't give you a get-out-of-the-rocket-equation-free card; not in a setting at *The Martian*'s tech level.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I know this was it for a while.  By analogy, this is HSF on the level of cheddar (compared to Hollywood's usual skim milk) - I'm hoping someday we get a diamond.  Surely there's enough nerds out there that a low-effects-budget film could work...

>>>>>>>> **u/Transfuturist** [+4]  *Carthago delenda est.* (a day later)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If the Primer guy made a space movie...
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> How exactly *can* you get freefall physics on Earth?

>>>>>>>>> **u/None** [+6]  (2 days later)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Drop the set.

>>>>>>>>>> **u/aldonius** [+1]  (6 days later)
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Or just go full CGI.

>>>>>>>>> **u/PeridexisErrant** [+3]  *put aside fear for courage, and death for life* (a day later)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> > If the Primer guy made a space movie...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Technically Earth is is space, making *Primer* a space movie as well.  Or something.  Anyway, that would be cool but it would be a nice bonus if normal people could at least pretend to follow what was happening if it was explained.

>>> **u/Kishoto** [+4]  (12 hours later)
>>> 
>>> I can agree with that. The Martian was a very good film, as far as keeping with rationality is concerned. Although it's worth noting that the content lends itself to being handled rationally, much moreso than, say, a superhero story.

>>>> **u/Roxolan** [+4]  *Head of antimemetiWalmart senior assistant manager* (14 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Well, the main character is rational. The entire rest of the world... Questionable.

>>>>> **u/Kishoto** [+3]  (14 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'd call the rest of the world realistic, if not completely rational. It's conceivable that we would act in that manner, albeit the book may have exaggerated the world's response. They seemed a bit too invested in one man.

>>>>>> **u/Transfuturist** [+2]  *Carthago delenda est.* (22 hours later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> That might simply be an effect of the book's condensed time.

>>>>>>> **u/Kishoto** [+4]  (23 hours later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Oh, well, I read the book and felt the same about the portrayal of the world's reaction. Don't get me wrong, a man stuck and surviving on another planet will generate lots of media interest, especially initially. I just don't think it would've lasted, especially once the cost of retrieving Mark Watney started escalating into the tens of millions. I can't see any reasonable, large entity investing that much in one human being's life, sad as that may sound.

>>>>>>>> **u/Transfuturist** [+2]  *Carthago delenda est.* (a day later)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Yeah, the cost made it kind of unbelievable. If there were a reasonable chance of survival, NASA could consider it an investment for public interest, but his chances were so thin that they would count on his death. And in that case, they wouldn't want to publicize it.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> That poor PR director.

>>>>>>>>> **u/Kishoto** [+10]  (a day later)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> > “FUCK!” Annie Montrose said. “You have got to be fucking kidding me!”
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> ^ Her first line
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> > “Not enough,” Annie said. “The press is crawling down my throat for this. And up my ass. Both directions, Venkat! They’re gonna meet in the middle!”
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> ^ Her best line   
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> > “Fuck,” Annie said, thoughtfully.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> ^ Her last line in her first scene.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> **Some of my favorite Annie quotes from the book (she's the director of media relations for NASA in the book)**

>>>>>>>>>> **u/Transfuturist** [+4]  *Carthago delenda est.* (a day later)
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Annie is best pony.

>> **u/IomKg** [+7]  (15 hours later)
>> 
>> Watch "Primer" from 2004, I didn't analytically go over it all to verify but I think its at least as rational as any fic I have read so far..
>> 
>> Try not reading about the plot of the movie, its much funner that way.

>>> **u/chorpler** [+1]  (4 days later)
>>> 
>>> And if you can understand what's going on without drawing a diagram, you are legally allowed to inflate your IQ score by 10 points during any online argument.

>>>> **u/IomKg** [+1]  (5 days later)
>>>> 
>>>> The fact that a flowchart existed was one of the things that made me sure its the real thing.

>> **u/Uncaffeinated** [+3]  (21 hours later)
>> 
>> There's too much media in the world to ever watch all of it. Once you realize you aren't compelled to see every latest blockbuster, things go much better.

>> **u/daydev** [+3]  (11 hours later)
>> 
>> If something is such a drivel that can only be enjoyed by self-deluding yourself to expect complete and utter crap, why bother?

>>> **u/None** [+3]  (11 hours later)
>>> 
>>> [deleted]

>>>> **u/daydev** [+1]  (11 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> So you say it's rational to trick yourself into 'enjoying' typical Hollywood crap by self-pretending to expect even bigger crap? What's the utility? As far as I know there's no obligation to watch what they produce.

>>>>> **u/FuguofAnotherWorld** [+6]  *Roll the Dice on Fate* (13 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Because I get enjoyment out of it, and can also spend time with others who get enjoyment out of it. I enjoy consuming media, and if I were to hold to harsh standards of rationality then the amount of media I could happily consume would be far less than the number of hours in a year that I would prefer to consume media.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I already feel like I've seen most of the good films extant, and many of the good TV shows. Further narrowing my criteria would ensure I definitely couldn't watch things as much as I like to given the rate that new things are produced that would satisfy said standards.

>>>>> **u/Kishoto** [+2]  (12 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> It could possibly be a slippery slope style of viewing media, where, at the end, you find your scope of enjoyable media to be drastically reduced, which is annoying in and of itself.

> **u/alexanderwales** [+9]  *Time flies like an arrow* (a day later)
> 
> > That is, the power balance will be changed and *the side that can punch harder will win.*
> 
> This is one of the reasons that I've always hated kryptonite. If the weakest Superman stories are something like, "Look how hard Superman can punch! Can he punch hard enough to destroy that thing? Between Superman and the villain, who is the harder puncher?" then kryptonite is just "Look at this drama that happens when Superman can't punch so hard anymore!" Basically, a failure mode for Superman stories is that they're about Superman being strong, and the solution to that is to take away his strength, which you do with kryptonite. So kryptonite usually indicates a weak story, because it's about punching things instead of better questions (like a vigilante's place in a system of law and order, or how to be good, or the need to balance altruistic sacrifice against personal fulfillment).

> **u/mycroftxxx42** [+5]  (9 hours later)
> 
> It's worth noting that Nolan's Batman _isn't_ "the World's Greatest Detective".  He's very smart, and good at seeing multiple uses for technology.  It's not _that_ out of character for BatGrimm to see Supes as an opportunity to play Iron Man.  
> 
> Cause, yeah, this is dumb.

>> **u/KharakIsBurning** [+5]  (11 hours later)
>> 
>> Is BatAffleck the same as BatGrimm though?

>>> **u/mycroftxxx42** [+1]  (15 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Oh, you have a very good point.  Fuck.   Let's hope so.

> **u/eaglejarl** [+5]  (13 hours later)
> 
> Obviously, I haven't seen the movie yet, but it seems likely that this could be explained as point-in-time difference. In MM, Luthor's endgame was still force -- make a Kryptonite bullet, shoot Superman in the face after weakening him. In BvS, the endgame is kill him with armor. The difference is that MM focuses on the investigation, whereas BvS (presumably) starts after the investigation is over. Which is reasonable, since the very first thing that Batman always does when a new hero shows up is figure out how to put them down if it becomes necessary. 
> 
> The story is based on an actual comic. In it, an old Batman uses various distractions to get Superman so distracted that Green Arrow can shoot him with a Kryptonite arrow. The missile, the tank, the armor -- they aren't meant to beat him, they're meant to get him in position and distracted enough not to hear Ollie getting set up and/or dodge the shot. I'm sure Batman took some satisfaction in kicking Superman around, but it was still fundamentally a distraction. 
> 
> The trailer I saw had Doomsday showing up, but didn't say that Luthor built him. Is that confirmed elsewhere?

>> **u/Kishoto** [+7]  (14 hours later)
>> 
>> It is heavily implied in the 3 min trailer. Biggest evidence, to me, is when Luthor says, "If man won't kill God, the devil will do it" overlaid with footage of General Zod's corpse being revealed and a bunch of standard electric, sciencey shit.
>> 
>> Edit: also, MM Luthor's force ending was force along the line of doing surgery with a scalpel vs. a mallet. In the end, it was Luthor's many contingencies that gave him the window with which to apply said force. As opposed to the open combat type setting chosen by batman and luthor in the new VS movie

> **u/Evilness42** [+3]  *And even myth is long forgotten...* (3 days later)
> 
> I never had hope for this movie. I was going to go watch it anyways, expecting a depressing slide into mind-numbing boredom as I watched poorly written action and character development. 
> 
> I never thought to compare it to Metropolitian Man. Now I'll have such a comparison in my head. Forever. So thank you. For freeing me.

> **u/pleasedothenerdful** [+2]  (6 days later)
> 
> [The Fall of Doc Future](http://docfuture.tumblr.com/post/82363551272/fall-of-doc-future-contents) did this for the Flash TV show for me. I can still enjoy it, but it's hard to praise it.

> **u/thakil** [+3]  (2 hours later)
> 
> Zack Snyder ruined my hype for Batman Vs. Superman.

> **u/ahornypoptart** [+1]  (2 days later)
> 
> It was ruined for me by The Dark Knight Returns, which does the "Batman Fights Superman" thing best.
> 
> Not only is the fight important to the character development and the themes of the story, but Batman is pretty creative in the method by which he endeavors to fight superman

> **u/foxtail-lavender** [+1]  (4 months later)
> 
> yep, it was dumb.

> **u/neshalchanderman** [+1]  (10 hours later)
> 
> >While Lex daftly maneuvers around the Kryptonian in the fan fiction, it is obvious that Lex Zuckerberg and Batman only know how to use force.
> 
> Could you explain why this is obvious.

>> **u/KharakIsBurning** [+4]  (11 hours later)
>> 
>> One builds Doomsday, the other uses a suit of armor.

>>> **u/neshalchanderman** [+1]  (11 hours later)
>>> 
>>> The argument appears weak:
>>> 
>>> 1. Building force measures doesn't stop the building of thought measures. Strategies can be complimentary and reinforcing.
>>> 
>>> 2. Tools can be used in different ways. Doomsday could be used as a distraction or to transfer a virus to Superman weakening him.  
>>> 
>>> 3. Defence is just as important as offence. It's not clear that simply disregarding that you are up against someone who could punch a hole through your torso is a "smart" decision.
>>> 
>>> You could be right. But, not neccessarily.

>>>> **u/Kishoto** [+9]  (12 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> His point is that it's foolish to rely on force measures when the thing you are trying to out-force has no clear, defined limits, and is also housed in a packaging you, realistically, won't be able to duplicate without running the risk of creating something you couldn't control. 
>>>> 
>>>> Superman carries the ability to exert forces exceeding the destructive potential of most nuclear weaponry, while also being as fast as sound (at minimum) and human sized AND flight capable. Trying to outforce something like that, outside of the realm of fictional convention is catastrophically idiotic and doomed to fail. The available data of what Superman could do should've led any sensible person to the conclusion that we should be very nice to our altruistic boy-in-blue overlord.
>>>> 
>>>> Edit: In addition, creating anything biological (specifically something with its own evolving thought directives aka the ability to make its own decisions) that could come close to matching Superman's force is idiotic. There's no way to guarantee the compliance of a being you design to out-adapt anything in its way. The biological structure of such a thing would mean that you should discard any non-magical mind control schemes. And if you don't trust the alien who saved the world and killed his own people to protect your race, and who has never shown any ill will towards humanity, why would you trust your little test tube, aggression driven doomsday baby?
>>>> 
>>>> And displaying the force countermeasures indicates your hostility to a being that could find you and kill you almost instantaneously. Hence making it a dumb idea, outright, unless you had absolute faith in Superman's unwillingness to harm you. And, again, it's stupid to rely on that, when he closely resembles a human, with human ways of thinking, enough that you could never say for sure that he would spare you after your attempts to murder him.

>>>>> **u/alexanderwales** [+12]  *Time flies like an arrow* (12 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Really, the first thing that you should do is gather data and run tests in order to see whether Superman *does* have limits. That's mostly what the first third of *Metropolitan Man* is about, and it's a pretty classic Lex Luthor plot because it allows the writer to tie an opening scene of heroism into the larger conflict. (Superman saves the crew of a space shuttle, Lex Luthor is seen maniacally wringing his hands in the background.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's one thing to have anecdotal evidence that Superman can shrug off a shotgun blast to the chest, but that doesn't mean that he couldn't be killed by several tons of TNT exploding in his face. I can think of a number of superheroes who have much more reachable limits than Superman, especially if you take into account the possibility that there are a number of ways to pretend that you're strong enough to shrug off gunfire.

>>>>>> **u/Kishoto** [+1]  (13 hours later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Agreed. Testing needs to happen. It's somewhat difficult to do that covertly, without endangering potential lives though. Unless you can nail down where Superman spends his "off" time. And even then, it's difficult. Like how would you set up such a scenario where Superman would be in close proximity to several tons of TnT without endangering anyone, or him seeing through (almost literally) the attempt?

>>>>> **u/neshalchanderman** [+0]  (12 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> >His point is that it's foolish to rely on force measures when the thing you are trying to out-force has no clear, defined limits, and is also housed in a packaging you, realistically, won't be able to duplicate without running the risk of creating something you couldn't control.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Can you expand on how we know they rely on their force measures?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Even your other points - that they know their opponent has no upper limit to his strength or durability; that his biological/technical abilities can't be duplicated - dont seem strong to me.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Where are you getting your assumptions from? Are these points in trailers?

>>>>>> **u/Kishoto** [+2]  (13 hours later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I haven't seen the trailers. I'm going off of what can be inferred from the Man of Steel movie, and also what was mentioned in the above comments, as far as the reference to the suped up batsuit and Doomsday.  Those are force measures. So, assuming OP is correct on those two details, that's what my commenting is centered around.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Also don't take what i said out of context. I said he has
>>>>>> > no clear, defined limits
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Which he doesn't, as of the Man of Steel movie. And i never said his abilities can't be duplicated; i said replicating his force delivery potential in the form of a biological weapon you can't feasiblly control is **stupid.**
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Edit: typed this up on my iPhone in my Google Chrome browser, which doesn't support Swiftkey, so I'm forced to use the default keyboard without any autocorrect or auto capitalization. So apologies for my many typos.

>>>>>>> **u/neshalchanderman** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The existence of a strategic measure does not mean the reliance on that measure. Nor that no other strategic measures.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Theres little point to your language quibble: I dont need to know if 80000N crushes Superman or 80001N as long as I know that Superman will be crushed by any weight larger than 9000kg. Explicitly in the prior movie we see a Kryptonian die and the existence of a phantom zone gun. This also establishes the need for these weapons. Other Kryptonians might invade.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> And I have no idea where this is coming from "replicating his force delivery potential in the form of a biological weapon you can't feasiblly control is stupid. " You're easily accepting of a man shooting lasers out his eye but suspicious of his opponent having control over his own created weapon?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It's possible that the Doomsday thing turns on Lex, if a little lazy writing, but who knows. We don't know the parameters of this world. We must await more information.

>>>>>>>> **u/Kishoto** [+1]  (a day later)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Fine. We can accept that, as it's a fictional world fully dictated by the writers, it's more than possible Luthor will have perfect control over his creation. But, assuming this Doomsday is similar at ALL to the other iterations, it's designed to adapt to anything that injures/kills it. Hence why I find the idea of someone being able to control it fairly unlikely. That's also the result of seeing this sort of trope in movies too many times, where someone creates something that ends up being too strong/too out of control and it has to be stopped. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>  I accept Superman's existence because he *exists*. Were I part of the movie's world, before I heard of him, I would've rejected the very thought of a human shaped being able to do these kinds of things, as that isn't consistent with anything we've learnt about the laws of physics in the world, which the Superman movieverse resembles in most ways, minus a few extra aliens.

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