scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/4jgyxp.md

## Unsong Chapter 20: When the Stars Threw Down Their Spears

* Author: u/Lord_Drol  *NERV**
* URL: http://unsongbook.com/chapter-20-when-the-stars-threw-down-their-spears/
* Score: 58

* Created: 2016-05-15T17:09:11

### Post:

[Link to content](http://unsongbook.com/chapter-20-when-the-stars-threw-down-their-spears/)

### Comments:

> **u/Frommerman** [+17]  (an hour later)
> 
> >Everyone ignored Uriel, as usual.
> 
> Best part.

> **u/Escapement** [+15]  *Ankh-Morpork City Watch* (2 hours later)
> 
> The depiction here of Satan as the Father of Lies is amazing.
> 
> The part about the tower of Babel being an angel's compensation is also amazing.
> 
> This part of Unsong is obviously erroneous:
> >forbidden-knowledge-bringer Gadiriel had suggested she crush some red rocks into a pigment and then paint it on herself
> 
> (it was Azazel who taught women the use of cosmetics, according to 1 Enoch)  
> 
> Is Raziel the Comet King?

>> **u/ScottAlexander** [+9]  (2 hours later)
>> 
>> What's your source? I'm looking at [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watcher_%28angel%29#Book_of_Enoch) and it says "Gadreel (or Gader'el) taught the art of cosmetics, the use of weapons and killing blows."

>>> **u/Escapement** [+7]  *Ankh-Morpork City Watch* (2 hours later)
>>> 
>>> From [wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azazel):
>>> 
>>> >1 Enoch portrays Azazel as responsible for teaching people to make weapons and cosmetics, for which he was cast out of heaven. 1 Enoch 8:1–3a reads:
>>> 
>>> >>    And Azazel taught men to make swords and knives and shields and breastplates; and made known to them the metals [of the earth] and the art of working them; and bracelets and ornaments; and the use of antimony and the beautifying of the eyelids; and all kinds of costly stones and all colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray and became corrupt in all their ways. 
>>> 
>>> However, I wouldn't be surprised if there are multiple angels/demons/whatever in scripture who have taught overlapping things to humans - I am pretty sure there's lots of overlapping magisteria. I was mostly joking. It really doesn't matter.
>>> 
>>> I was only fixated on Azazel because another piece of fiction I read some time ago had a reference to him teaching use of cosmetics...

>> **u/LiteralHeadCannon** [+1]  (2 hours later)
>> 
>> Ooh, an intriguing possibility that ties things together very nicely.

>> **u/JulianWyvern** [+1]  *Wayward Wanderer* (9 hours later)
>> 
>> Raziel is an angel, so I don't think he can speak Names of God and the Comet King is the greatest singer so, probably not.

>>> **u/LiteralHeadCannon** [+1]  (10 hours later)
>>> 
>>> What about nephilim?

> **u/Green0Photon** [+15]  *Student in Cyoria, Minmay, and Ranvar* (4 hours later)
> 
> >“GO AWAY,” Uriel repeated. “OR I WILL TURN YOU INTO NUMBERS.”
> 
> This is obviously the best part.
> 
> Also, someone in the comments mentioned how Uriel spoke lowercase until he flared. There was also talk about Raziel looking in the opposite direction of Sataniel, for the Right Hand of God. In the direction of Heaven (Neil Armstrong).
> 
> So I thought, well, in the RHOG interlude, Kesey spoke in uppercase. Is Uriel the RHOG or channeling him? Maybe there wasn't a physical RHOG, considering what happened to Armstrong, and by channeling the Divine Light, Uriel became him. I don't know, but it's an interesting idea.
> 
> I'm gonna reread the chapter that Uriel fought Thamiel in.
> 
> Edit: It seems that they're equals in that. It was not all out war, just some battling, which Uriel was not good at. It was interesting that they both used words (I can't remember what they're called) to fight, completely unlike in this chapter. It really does seem like Uriel is the RHOG now.
> 
> Also, I'm probably gonna want to learn the Hebrew alphabet, to understand this better. Then reread it. Then, after Summer Break, when I take a Myth & Bible class, I'll reread it again, understanding that lore better.
> 
> Damn this chapter was good.
> 
> Edit 2: Forgot to add this: Comet West came from above. Maybe he has something to do with that Heavenly Power.

> **u/LiteralHeadCannon** [+11]  (2 hours later)
> 
> Overall, my favorite chapter in a long time. Perhaps my favorite in the story overall.

> **u/DCarrier** [+7]  (5 hours later)
> 
> > The slaves looked uncomfortable. For that matter, Ut-Naparash looked uncomfortable. Maybe Samyazaz had gotten the wrong religion? Maybe it being the storm god Ishkur mounted upon his giant fire-breathing bull was really bad?
> 
> I need to brush up on my Sumerian mythology. What exactly did he get wrong?

>> **u/electrace** [+15]  (12 hours later)
>> 
>> The joke is in the context, not the mythology. 
>> 
>> >Samyazaz looked west. The slave was right. It was big and green and formed of hulking thunderheads that seemed to seethe and simmer. It was coming closer. There was something ominous about it.
>> 
>> >“Bah!” said Samyazaz. “It’s just the storm god Ishkur, mounted upon his giant fire-breathing bull.”
>> 
>> Here, Samayazaz, intending to calm down the slaves, is saying, don't worry, it's *just* [insert terrifying god riding terrifying steed]. 
>> 
>> Samayazaz is oblivious to the fact that "Ishkur and his bull" might be frightening to humans, and so runs through reasons as to why they might be uncomfortable, which brings us to your quoted bit, which then gets followed up by...
>> 
>> >Or maybe it was something entirely different. You never knew with humans, thought Samyazaz.
>> 
>> In other words, Samayazaz doesn't really *get* people.

> **u/Green0Photon** [+8]  *Student in Cyoria, Minmay, and Ranvar* (8 hours later)
> 
> Scott said [here][1] that he switched Uriel with Sandalphon for a bunch of complicated reasons he didn't want to say. I was bored and looked it up, even though I probably won't get it.
> 
> Scott uses 10 archangels, the jewish version (kabbalah and stuff he uses in the story), but in Eastern Orthodox, there are 7 archangels, one of which is Uriel. He's an archangel throughout Christianity, but not in Judaism. His name also means "Light of God". (I've used [this][2] and [this][3] so far.)
> 
> Of the ten [Sephirot][4], Sandalphon is Malchuth. In that link, Scott uses that first set, but with different spellings. Malchuth is "Kingship". It is the one sephirot on the bottom of the diagram. Unlike the other Sephirot, [Malchuth][5] is an attribute of God that does not emanate from Him directly. It rather emanates from God's creation. It is the furthest from the Divine Light.
> 
> It's not the physical world though. There are the [four worlds of Adam Kadmon][6] that Uriel mentions. The lowest world is Assiah, whose dominant sephirot is Malchuth. Assiah is the concealment of God. The lower part of that is Assiah Gashmi, physical existence.
> 
> So I guess whatever Archangel corresponds with Malchuth must be the one to cut off the divine light. Sandalphon doesn't seem to do much, but Uriel's name is "Light of God" and he does a bunch of stuff. So it makes sense to put him there to control how the Divine Light enters Assiah Gashmi, the physical world, and thus all the other stuff.
> 
> That probably isn't it, but it's still some very interesting kabbalistic correspondences about Uriel and his role in Adam Kadmon.
> 
> Note: I know nearly nothing about religion, especially judaism/kabbalah. All this was taken from Unsong and Wikipedia.
> 
> edit: Thamiel means Duality in God according the Qliphoth/Kelipot. It's neat because Scott's split Lucifer/Satan/Sataniel from Thamiel. Interesting...
> 
> [1]:http://slatestarscratchpad.tumblr.com/post/144421318151/how-much-of-the-roles-and-characters-of-archangels
> [2]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archangel
> [3]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_angelic_hierarchy
> [4]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephirot
> [5]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malkuth
> [6]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Worlds

>> **u/ScottAlexander** [+3]  (8 hours later)
>> 
>> Yes, that's an interesting correspondence. No, it's not quite what I was thinking of.

> **u/None** [+4]  (9 hours later)
> 
> Wait, if Samyazaz isn't anatomically correct then how did he
> 
> how did he
> 
> actually
> 
> how would Sataniel even

>> **u/wtfbbc** [+9]  (10 hours later)
>> 
>> MIND BABIEZZZZ
>> 
>> >anatomically-correct
>> 
>> racist tbh, angels are correct too

>>> **u/None** [+2]  (10 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Dude. He felt bad, I was just summarizing his own feelings

>>>> **u/wtfbbc** [+3]  (10 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Sounds like ableism to me

>> **u/LiteralHeadCannon** [+7]  (10 hours later)
>> 
>> You just gotta trick 'em into saying the Impregnating Name.  Then the Amnestic Name so they think it's a miracle or sexual.

>> **u/abcd_z** [+3]  (14 hours later)
>> 
>> Unlike the other angels, Samyazaz learned the trick of lying without falling.

>> **u/Frommerman** [+2]  (10 hours later)
>> 
>> The answer is always magic?

> **u/electrace** [+5]  (23 hours later)
> 
> I'm calling that Ngo is Gadiriel.
> 
> She's a she, and she's the only archangel besides Gabriel and Uriel who could possibly still be alive, which could be why she could see invisible people.

>> **u/Fredlage** [+5]  (a day later)
>> 
>> I thought angels couldn't speak Names? Ngo uses the Fulminant Name against Ana

>>> **u/electrace** [+1]  (2 days later)
>>> 
>>> True, I forgot about that.
>>> 
>>> Unless she became more human somehow... my prediction is probably going to fall flat.

>> **u/Frommerman** [+2]  (a day later)
>> 
>> We haven't seen anyone who isn't Sohu in the presence of an archangel, so it could be that the wrongness Aaron and Anna felt is caused by something about archangels.

> **u/Frommerman** [+7]  (a day later)
> 
> So, unless the "deepest lake" has changed sometime in the past 6000 years, Sataniel delved into Lake Baikal, in Russia. Have we heard anything about what's going on over there?

> **u/trekie140** [+2]  (2 days later)
> 
> This chapter made me feel the same way I did when I was reading Fine Structure, which makes me nervous. Most people seem to like FS, but while it started out interesting to me I kind of hated it by the end. Not that it's badly written, I've actually liked some of qntm's other work, the story just went in directions I didn't like and I cared less and less about the characters as it went on. I don't want to repeat that experience with this story.

> **u/Aretii** [+1]  *Cultist of Cthugha* (10 hours later)
> 
> Isn't Metatron the transmuted prophet Enoch in Jewish mysticism? I want to know more about his deal in this.

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