scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/4lm7d8.md

## [RT] Unsong Chapter 22: Whose Ears Have Heard The Holy Word

* Author: u/gamarad  *LessWrong (than usual)**
* URL: http://unsongbook.com/chapter-22-whose-ears-have-heard-the-holy-word/
* Score: 39

* Created: 2016-05-29T20:56:19

### Post:

[Link to content](http://unsongbook.com/chapter-22-whose-ears-have-heard-the-holy-word/)

### Comments:

> **u/wtfbbc** [+16]  (an hour later)
> 
> All these digressions on digressions are killing me
> 
> Edit: don't get me wrong they're fucking great. But.

>> **u/alexanderwales** [+14]  *Time flies like an arrow* (3 hours later)
>> 
>> It reminds me a little bit of *Fine Structure* or *Ra* (both by Sam Hughes). But with *Fine Structure*, that was because it had started as unrelated stories that were merged together into an uber-story. With *Unsong*, I get the feeling that it was unrelated story *ideas* that got merged together ... which is fine, but it's a lot of threads to track over a fairly long period of reading time, and with every new digression I get more worried about whether the payoff is going to be worth it.

>> **u/None** [+8]  (2 hours later)
>> 
>> I was going to write a comment with [a link to this comment](http://unsongbook.com/chapter-22-whose-ears-have-heard-the-holy-word/#comment-6084) and some general words of agreement with you, but I stepped back a little bit. Some off the cuff word counts:
>> 
>>  * Book 1: 48666 words
>>  * Book 1 Interludes: 10500 words
>>  * Book 2 includinge Interlude: 26201 words
>> 
>> That's a total of 85367 words. That is about the length of *Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets*, so someone could fault Scott for not being more efficient in his world building. But I think that the serial format coupled with his unusual approach to introducing the world really is working against him.
>> 
>> Given the complexity of what he's doing, I think it's not actually all that bad in an absolute sense: we've got a distorted perspective on things because we're getting this in a drip feed. I'm sure if the releases were longer and more spaced out, there would be a larger perspective and some planning to make distinct chunks of narrative, to present them, resolve them, and present new narratives and things would be fine.
>> 
>> That said, perhaps the best thing to do is to just sit and wait a couple of months and see if reading it all in one sitting helps any.

>>> **u/None** [+8]  (8 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Man, I don't know what you guys are reading that's a chore. If he stopped writing tomorrow, I'd still be delighted to have read this much.

>>>> **u/LiteralHeadCannon** [+3]  (a day later)
>>>> 
>>>> If he stopped writing tomorrow, I would be very sad, not because it would somehow illegitimize what I've already read, but because what I've already read is very good and I want more of it.

>> **u/None** [+3]  (6 hours later)
>> 
>> Have you considered reading several chapters at a time, all as a single batch? When you're reading a serial, that's usually the solution to pacing issues.

>>> **u/ulyssessword** [+4]  (9 hours later)
>>> 
>>> Does this work for other people?  I found the exact opposite when reading [The Games We Play](https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/the-games-we-play-rwby-the-gamer-ryuugi-complete.351105/).  Reading a week worth of posts in one sitting where nothing happened was what convinced me to drop it.

>>>> **u/None** [+5]  (9 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> ... *Usually* the solution to pacing issues. :-)
>>>> 
>>>> If you read a big batch and you're still bored, yeah, Plan B is to drop the series. Better for everyone that way.

>>>> **u/alexanderwales** [+3]  *Time flies like an arrow* (10 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> I've never found that it works.
>>>> 
>>>> For that strategy to make sense, what you really need is defined starting and stopping points that encompass a complete arc. However, if the pacing is off, that might not be possible, and if the author doesn't take the time to split things into arcs, or splits their arcs incorrectly, then you're left in the same position as before, with the only change being that you get your disappointment in lumps instead of spread out.

> **u/scruiser** [+10]  *CYOA* (an hour later)
> 
> So I'm 50/50 between guessing that it is a trap (The Other King needs a crew with noble intentions to operate the boat), or that it is narrative logic at work.  On a more meta-level, introducing narrative based reality manipulation (I'll just use the disc world term narrativium) would be a problem if this was trying to be a more serious story.  Basically any bizarre chain of events necessary for a plot can be justified via narrativium, so the reader stops noticing if there is an actual logical reason for the events (another character manipulating things for example).  As it is, this story is over the top enough that it can kind of get away with it.  Has Scott Alexander put any clear limits on narrativium or the way coincidences drive everything?  The world building has made it so that captain Nobody (Nemo) ending up on a significant boat isn't really that weird, thus if it was meant to imply something significant about Nemo or the way events come together I don't know what it is other than that it probably has a lot of puns.
> 
> Edit: Did a search of the usage of the word nobody... and this quote stuck out
> 
> > Nobody can catch the All Your Heart. It’s the fastest ship in the world. We can make it to the California Republic by noon tomorrow and nobody can stop us.”

>> **u/Frommerman** [+4]  (10 hours later)
>> 
>> Ritual magic in this world, as shown in the placebomancy interlude, literally is narrativium. It runs on the premise that things happen because the universe feels like they should happen, rather than because the laws of physics say they do happen.

>> **u/None** [+3]  (a day later)
>> 
>> Ritual magic seems to be significantly less powerful than the Names of God, though. Remember that Dylan Alvarez, the best in the world at ritual magic, is still operating a terrorist group after decades of trying, while random people who learn significant names of God end up taking over China within a few months.

>>> **u/None** [+3]  (2 days later)
>>> 
>>> [deleted]

>>>> **u/None** [+0]  (6 days later)
>>>> 
>>>> I feel like we are reaching the stage where "because placebomancy requires it" can be used as an answer to anything. An explanation that explains any results is not a real explanation

> **u/ulyssessword** [+3]  (a day later)
> 
> I wonder if the Other King is secretly the Comet King, who has pulled a [redacted], and decided to take the villainous route to saving the world after people didn't help him enough as a hero.  
> 
> He's a Utilitarian, and a few crucifixions and forcibly drafting an army is *nothing* compared to destroying Hell.

> **u/Escapement** [+4]  *Ankh-Morpork City Watch* (an hour later)
> 
> The Other King sounds like a weird title to me. I don't even know. The antichrist or something? The personification of Death from Revelations?
> 
> The association that pushed me to the thought of Death for the title of Other King is of course T. S. Eliot's [The Hollow Men](http://aduni.org/~heather/occs/honors/Poem.htm) - where there are repeated lines about 'death's **other king**dom':
> 
> >Those who have crossed 	
> With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
> 
> and 
> 
> >Is it like this  	
> In death's other kingdom
> 
> Has anyone got any other references that The Other King might be from? I remember from Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell there are repeated references to Faerie as The Other Lands, and one specific part of the book said in particular:
> 
> >The other two were called "the King's Other Lands". One was part of Faerie and the other was commonly supposed to be a country on the far side of Hell, sometimes called "the Bitter Lands". The King's enemies said that he leased it from Lucifer.
> 
> Which is of course highly relevant to Unsong's themes, but of course the book is fairly obscure, and the King in question is the Raven King rather than The Other King. Anyone got any thoughts on a possible origin for the Other King?

>> **u/Iconochasm** [+11]  (5 hours later)
>> 
>> The simplest explanation is that he's just Not The Comet King.  We had a Comet King, and now there's a new king.  Hail to the King?  The Comet King?  No, [voice drops to a whisper] The Other King.

> **u/__2BR02B__** [+1]  *Marxist-Lurianism* (2 days later)
> 
> Hey, what does it take to activate a scroll? If, say, Aaron wrote the Mortal Name on a scroll, and placed it as a trap, slightly above the ground, and a soldier stepped on it and tore it, would they die?

>> **u/Fredlage** [+1]  (2 days later)
>> 
>> Kind of depends on the semantics... The description is that it kills the speaker, so the question is, does the speaker count as the guy who created the scroll or the one who tore it? I'd guess the former, since that is the one the Sentinel name detects.

>>> **u/redstonerodent** [+2]  *High Council of Gallifrey* (2 days later)
>>> 
>>> But with things like the Awakening Name, when you use it from the scroll it makes the user less tired, not the person who made it. So I would guess it would kill the soldier.
>>> 
>>> How do you know the Sentinel Name detects the creator of a scroll? I had assumed it didn't trigger at all for scroll uses.

>>>> **u/LiteralHeadCannon** [+2]  (2 days later)
>>>> 
>>>> I think I remember Scott saying that the Sentinel Name detects scrolls being written.

>>>> **u/Fredlage** [+1]  (2 days later)
>>>> 
>>>> Scott said so in response to a comment a few chapters ago (can't remember which one right now)

>>>> **u/Fredlage** [+1]  (2 days later)
>>>> 
>>>> In regards to the awakening name, we don't know its exact mechanics. Maybe you can target it?

>>> **u/LiteralHeadCannon** [+2]  (2 days later)
>>> 
>>> The former would still allow the creation of deadly contracts where people write the Mortal Name on a scroll and give it to someone they are "signing their life" to.  "Swearing by God".

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