scrape_r_rational/data/cache2/4mtkt9.md

## [RT] [HF] [D] Mother of Learning Arc 3:The Key

* Author: u/melmonella  *Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you**
* URL: https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/4mtkt9/rt_hf_d_mother_of_learning_arc_3the_key/
* Score: 37

* Created: 2016-06-06T15:43:36

### Post:

After the revelation that was brought upon us in the last chapter, it is quite clear that Arc 3 will deal with Zorian and Zack trying to find the ADMIN key to the gates of the loop. It is also an entirely *new* piece of information, so I think it is an appropriate time to look through the previous chapters to see if we can find some relevant foreshadowing, or, in the best case scenario, items themselves being mentioned.

Here is what I have so far:

* There are five items:a "Dagger", a "Crown", a "Staff", an "Orb" and a "Ring"

* /u/AurelianoTampa noted that Quatach-Ichl wears a fancy crown and carries a sceptre(a Staff? I don't think it is likely that two pieces will be in the same place): 
>Encased in gold-decorated armor, with a scepter held tightly in one of its skeletal hands and a crown full of purple gemstones, the creature looking like some long-dead king risen from the dead.

* They also noted that a Ring might be buried under a suspicious ring-like outcropping of trees in the Noveda estate: 
>"I wonder what's keeping the saplings confined to that ring of trees," wondered Zorian aloud. "This meadow should be a copse of trees by now.
>Zach blinked. "I never thought about that," he admitted. "You notice the strangest things, Zorian."

Any other ideas?

### Comments:

> **u/CitrusJ** [+24]  (5 hours later)
> 
> Zorian initially got pulled into the loop when being hit with Zach by the lich, correct? Maybe the crown really is a "key" in that case, and had a role to play in causing Zorian to also gain the marker?

>> **u/melmonella** [+3]  *Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you* (6 hours later)
>> 
>> That is a very good point.

> **u/AurelianoTampa** [+18]  (14 minutes later)
> 
> Thanks for the shout-out! I've been doing some more digging, so I'll update this as I find stuff:
> 
> **Staff:** Red Robe had a staff. LOTS of people have staffs, of course, but RR is an important person, so perhaps his staff is as well.
> 
> **Dagger:** I'm looking for items that could be considered daggers; bladed weapons, basically. The vampire (chapter 26) has a sword that is, quote:
> 
> >...her sword (which was clearly magical, burning with strange purple fire that ate through forcefields)...
> 
> My tinfoil went on when I read about the "strange purple fire," as Q-I's crown has purple gemstones, and purple is the traditional color of royalty (and these are imperial artifacts). 
> 
> Once disarmed (heh, literally), she pulls out a knife:
> 
> >she promptly pulled out a knife with the other arm and returned to attacking people again.
> 
> Also mentions that her blades (plural) can cut through forcefields. Which... actually probably discredits the idea that either is the dagger in question, since apparently forcefield-cutting blades aren't unique if at least two can do it. Back to it!
> 
> **Rings:** No luck looking for other rings than the one mentioned in my original thought (ring of trees). I mean, there ARE other actual rings. Haslush has one that converts alcohol to sugar. Zach gives Zorian one with Magic Missile on it. One of the random cultists had a ring of mind blank. And Zorian of course makes suicide rings. But no ancient imperial rings that I could find. Maybe I could look for "band" like "a band of silver around his finger" or something...
> 
> **Orb**: I don't recall any orbs of note. There are training orbs used to record mana signatures; Xvim has one and uses it to test Zorian and make sure he is who he claims to be. Which, assuming Xvim is DADA, would be kind of hilarious - what if it's an imperial artifact that records the mana signature of all who hold it? 
> 
> But with the revelation about RR leaving the pocket dimension, it seems pretty unlikely that Xvim is a DADA trope; and both he and Zorian claim the orbs are used for training all the time. 
> 
> Only other thought was maybe the soul well...? But that's not an orb, and almost certainly was created by Sudomir. No idea what else could be used. 
> 
> **Predictions**
> 
> I'm pretty sure that Q-I's crown is a key item. It gets pointed out each time the lich appears. And a crown seems ridiculous to wear into battle, undead king or not. But none of the other possibilities I listed seem all that strong. It's quite possible none of the other artifacts have shown up yet. But I'd like to think that the author has put some hints as to where they could be to justify future moves. My guesses:
> 
> Tesen: As House Noveda's guardian, he likely has access to all of its treasures. We still don't know why Zach was chosen, but it was confirmed in this article that Tesen donated the Sovereign Gate to the crown (~~literal~~ governmental crown, not Q-I's). If the Noveda bloodline has the Gate as an inheritance, it stands to reason that they had at least one of the artifacts used to access it. Either Tesen himself may have one, or there may be one in Zach's vault, or the aforementioned "Ring of Trees" has to do with it.
> 
> Damien: If not RR himself, Damien is probably going to come into play during the treasure hunt. Leading expeditions into ancient ruins? Check. Has located something of interest? Check. I feel very confident that Damien will soon make an appearance in person, and will either have a key item, or will help find one.

>> **u/Gurkenglas** [+3]  (2 hours later)
>> 
>> [Googling 'ring' in the story](https://www.google.de/search?q=site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.fictionpress.com%2Fs%2F2961893%2F+ring&oq=site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.fictionpress.com%2Fs%2F2961893%2F+ring&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i58.2623j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) <- this query and similar ones may be useful.

>> **u/MultipartiteMind** [+3]  (8 hours later)
>> 
>> (Pedantry:  'crown' for 'crown on Q-I's head' is literal, 'crown' for 'referring to the country's royalty' is figurative.  Maybe a synecdoche, actually?)

>>> **u/AurelianoTampa** [+1]  (10 hours later)
>>> 
>>> D'oh! I goofed there :)

>> **u/thrawnca** [+2]  *Carbon-based biped* (a day later)
>> 
>> Point in favor of the crown being a component: We've already seen the author pull a similar "defeat the mage-killing unstoppable monster and take the valuable object it's carrying", with the grey hunter.

> **u/gabbalis** [+11]  (32 minutes later)
> 
> What's the purpose of these admin keys anyway? I mean, it seems like an awfully big security flaw to leave admin keys in a place where the time traveler can have unlimited attempts to access them.
> 
> Unless of course, the whole point is to leave an emergency out for the time traveler just in case something goes very wrong. (As it has in this case) While being inaccessible enough that the user doesn't run sudo rm -Rf --no-preserve-root by accident.

>> **u/melmonella** [+16]  *Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you* (an hour later)
>> 
>> >where the time traveler can have unlimited attempts to access them.
>> 
>> Time traveler is supposed to be in control of the situation as is. So they would only need the key if something broke.

>> **u/CelestAI** [+7]  (3 hours later)
>> 
>> I agree that the key might be a some sort of weird backup feature, but I'm surprised that the key items are... part of normal continuity.
>> 
>> Clearly, the gate can recognize controller(s), and gives them pretty complete access during normal operation -- it's not like the controller needs the key to exit the loop.
>> 
>> Seems like if you wanted the extra functions of the gate to only be available to the controller in the event something went wrong, and the loop functions as specified here, the best way to prevent non-loopers from using it would be to create a part (or parts) of the copied world that varied from iteration to iteration, and somehow modified / branded memories in such a way that the key could only be used if a controller was exposed over the course of multiple loops.
>> 
>> These sorts of devices wouldn't be part of normal continuity, and therefore certainly wouldn't be part of legend.
>> 
>> Just putting 5 McGuffins in general circulation seems like a obviously poorly designed system, so I have to assume that they keys aren't really designed as a backup failsafe -- maybe they're specific pieces of equipment to help the controller modify the loop in individually useful ways, but are less useful outside the loop (e.g. however RR removed souls from the loop might do nothing in the real world), and they've just been scattered by time? If that's the case, even collecting them all may not really change the situation, though it might provide insight into the systems controlling the loop.

>>> **u/melmonella** [+2]  *Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you* (3 hours later)
>>> 
>>> > Seems like if you wanted the extra functions of the gate to only be available to the controller in the event something went wrong
>>> 
>>> ...then you would put them on their soul marker. 
>>> 
>>> >Just putting 5 McGuffins in general circulation seems like a obviously poorly designed system, so I have to assume that they keys aren't really designed as a backup failsafe -- maybe they're specific pieces of equipment to help the controller modify the loop in individually useful ways, but are less useful outside the loop (e.g. however RR removed souls from the loop might do nothing in the real world), and they've just been scattered by time?
>>> 
>>> I think they are useful pieces of equipment alright, and useful outside of the loop too, but they have a secondary function of also beign the key.

>>>> **u/CelestAI** [+2]  (3 hours later)
>>>> 
>>>> Clearly the soul marker already works as a key of sorts, you're right -- I suppose it's too much to ask that the creator of the system might have designed a failsafe precisely for the eventuality of a non-controller becoming aware of the loops, ala Spear of Resolve? It sure doesn't seem like it, given the "only-one-can-leave" thing.
>>>> 
>>>> > but they have a secondary function of also beign the key
>>>> 
>>>> But why even have a key, much less have a key be a secondary function on something else?

>>>>> **u/None** [+2]  (7 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> >But why even have a key
>>>>> 
>>>>> So *when* things go wrong, things can be fixed; having 6 objects all fail into an enemys hand at the same time is less likely then 1

>>>>>> **u/kaukamieli** [+1]  (20 days later)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But if you have 6 items, it's more probable that one of then gets lost or destroyed or something.

>>>>> **u/melmonella** [+1]  *Tremble, o ye mighty, for a new age is upon you* (4 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> >But why even have a key
>>>>> 
>>>>> In case shit goes wrong. If you are making a spell that might kill your customer, it is good practice to give them tools to fix stuff going wrong.
>>>>> 
>>>>> >have a key be a secondary function on something else
>>>>> 
>>>>> Well if you are going to make a key be anything, why not make it your favourite magical staff?

>>>>> **u/boomfarmer** [+1]  *Trying to be helpful* (9 hours later)
>>>>> 
>>>>> > But why even have a key, much less have a key be a secondary function on something else?
>>>>> 
>>>>> I *think* you're thinking about this from the point of view of someone designing the inside of the simulation first. I could be wrong. But.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If you're building an expensive magical artifact (The Gate) which can grant fantastic powers through its use, you want to lock it down. And we already know that it was built through the government, so it would stand to reason that the government would want to be in control of the artifact. And because it grants government-ending power, access controls should be multifactor: present in a secure location, with tons of mana to run the artifact (and therefore tons of mages), and with the consent of a high government official. What better symbols to show the government 's trust in whoever enters the simulation than to require the royal items?
>>>>> 
>>>>> And, once someone has entered the simulation with these items easily available (they will have the items with the at the time the snapshot was taken, in all likelihood), why not use those inside the simulation for other purposes? It's reusing a token that's already in  use, for a similar purpose. The items let you in, so they should also let you out.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Then Red Robe comes along and brute-forces the entrance, and so the items have not been gathered in the room. Or Red Robe used them, and removed them from the simulation.

>> **u/ZeroNihilist** [+1]  (5 hours later)
>> 
>> I think that's the point, yeah. Since gathering all 5 keys in one month would be difficult for anyone that didn't have "true" looping, it basically serves as a backup plan.
>> 
>> Zorian and Zach can gain mana capacity, knowledge, and skill to eventually be able to recover them with ease. People brought in by them probably couldn't without assistance (e.g. Zorian or Zach saving their notes on the search), and would need to be sufficiently strong in the first place.
>> 
>> And obviously it would be vanishingly unlikely for somebody who wasn't looping at all to manage it, or for them to be gathered and used by accident.

> **u/InsaneBranch** [+3]  (17 hours later)
> 
> What if it's the Orb of Memory that Zorian talks about in a made up story for Kiri. (Yes, I know, Chekhov's paranoia ... :P)
> And it's, rather than feeding the simulation with energy as it was suggested, the artefact responsible for keeping the operator's memories upon the return to the real life?

> **u/TimTravel** [+2]  (6 hours later)
> 
> Keep in mind we already know how to banish QI to his phylactery with the help of morlock whatsisname. Just do that and take his two items and run like hell for the gate just in case a centuries old lich has a backup plan.

> **u/zconjugate** [+2]  (8 hours later)
> 
> Are there any previous controllers possibly around? I thought Q-I might have the crown because he was a past controller 400 or 800 years ago, but he's only 1000 years old and the Ghost Serpent says that the Brand has been dormant for the past few cycles.

>> **u/kaukamieli** [+8]  (16 hours later)
>> 
>> Zorian noticed Q-I looking at his soul when Zach fought Q-I, and instead of Q-I understanding everything, he thought Zach had different kind of rebirth thing. If he was past controller, he would definitely have recognized what's going on.

> **u/whywhisperwhy** [+1]  (11 hours later)
> 
> So Silverlake, Daimen, possibly the lich QI... Any other likely sources of info on the McGuffins I'm missing?

>> **u/literal-hitler** [+3]  (15 hours later)
>> 
>> Thousands. They're everywhere. ^^^^Everywhere.

>>> **u/whywhisperwhy** [+2]  (a day later)
>>> 
>>> Wtf is this referencing?

> **u/None** [+1]  (3 hours later)
> 
> I'm going to throw speculation at the wall here. I'm assuming each artifact had some sort of stupid op power, that an idiot in the gate may need to use before they actually know what going on
> 
> The dragger presumably time travel kills, its how rr learned his "soul kill" and was his(/his cult?) before the time loop, it started glowing or something when the loop started causing pre-loop rr to research it heavily and one loop he met zach, tried to kill him with the dagger(an enemy who brags about coming back to life seems the sort of person to stab with a soul something or other dagger) when it didn't work he poked around with zachs soul
> 
> The crown probably gives general knowledge of how magic works form that "age of gods"(as finding teachers seem to be a pain) the fact "qi" wears it everywhere, suggests that it isn't the old necromancer, but a pawn rr gave it to whos masquerading as the lich.
> 
> the staff is a staff maybe a #hype long lost brother has it
> 
> The orb is for providing mana to continue the loop, its probably in the middle of the forest guarded by, oh I don't know an zombie ice dragon or something
> 
> The ring, is probably what imprinted zachs soul to start the loop; its looked boring so zach was allowed to keep it
> 
> /speculation 
> 
> edit// even more wild speculation, what if while the scientists were poking around in the cube the saved a copy of the world and its decades after the war and zach actually entered the loop to meet dead friends and his compulsion to single handily win the war by himself is actually survivor guilt

> **u/SaintPeter74** [+1]  (6 hours later)
> 
> What I'm wondering is if there is what sort of effects we might see as the world "winds down" or runs out of power.  Will that means shorter loops or copy errors?
> 
> I look forward to the search for the 5 keys, but how the world will potentially change is interesting too.

> **u/Terkala** [+1]  (13 hours later)
> 
> Has Zorian seen Quatach-Ichl since his last confrontation with Red Robe? And if so, has he mentioned the crown and sceptre in those entries?

>> **u/None** [+2]  (2 days later)
>> 
>> In [chapter 43](https://www.fictionpress.com/s/2961893/43/Mother-of-Learning), when Zorian was going around getting info out of invaders' minds:
>> 
>> > Zorian subdued two more groups after that, neither of which had anything new to teach him, before Quatach-Ichl suddenly teleported in front of him and blasted him in the face with one of those jagged red disintegration beams he loved so much. He died instantly, unable to raise any defenses in time.

>>> **u/Terkala** [+1]  (2 days later)
>>> 
>>> So he met him, but didn't comment on the crown, or lack thereof. Interesting.

>> **u/InsaneBranch** [+1]  (a day later)
>> 
>> I believe he saw him when investigating the mansion. Not sure about the artefacts.

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